This is a response by Rahini David to the review of Lingaa. It’s a counter to an accusation (by another commenter) that Shankar’s films are worse than the average masala-film in terms of the regressive concepts they put forth. Such good points here that, in my opinion (happy?), it deserved to be rescued from languishing in the comments section and become its own post. Here goes…
I agree with all the problem parts of Shankar movies but I have to disagree with “the problem with Shankar is that I find his scripts being even worse than the average masala-film in terms of the regressive concepts they put forth.” What average masala film are we talking about here? Let us just a few Rajini movies
Posted in: Cinema: Tamil, Readers Write In
Baradwaj Rangan 
Just Another Film Buff
December 19, 2014
Hahaha! What a day, first I read this: http://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/ayn-rand-reviews-childrens-movies
and then I read your entry.
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Just Another Film Buff
December 19, 2014
Oops, I just realized this was Ms Rahini David’s comment.
Good job, Rahini.
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lowlylaureate
December 19, 2014
It is also the running theme that the docile woman is the perfect woman, she also has to be innocent and never for once has any other thought other than that of the hero, for example kushboo in annamalai/mannan and soundarya in padayappa. While on the other hand vijayashanti and ramya krishnan are actually opinionated headstrong women who are made to play villains.
Dunno if this has been a theme earlier but there were examples like Savale Samali or in any other film Jayalalitha plays the heroine, people always used to cast her as the learned city brat/spoilt kid who is ready to be tamed.
Every hero has such a film in Tamil Nadu(Singaravelan Sakalakala Vallavan anyone?), but the worrying trend is, such films are only increasing in number . The Hero by default has the pedestal to define how the heroine should be and always gets such a girl.
This has increasingly become troubling for me to digest and the fact that nobody else finds it troubling, is even more troubling.
Also there is this Rajni obsession with black color, one line for sure will have him ask the heroine as to why did they have to prefer a dark skinned guy when there are so many white men around, i mean in almost every film.
Bye
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Rahini David
December 19, 2014
BR: Thank you so much. 🙂
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Anuja
December 19, 2014
Admittedly, the misogyny in Rajini’s movies makes you wanna hurl but he is hardly the sole offender! Vijay’s films reek of MCPisms – take Sivakasi where he upbraids Asin’s character for daring to invite eve teasing by wearing shorts and a tee which he insists is the equivalent of a bra and panty or Piriyamanavale where he actually buys himself a trial wife!
Ajith is also an offender in films like VAralaru where his character endorses the disgusting viewpoint that the definitive way for a man to prove his manhood is by raping women.
I have lost track of the number of heroes and directors in Tamil cinema who have shown rape victims killing themselves or marrying the asswipe who raped them in the first place (Parthiban, KSR, to name a few and even Mysskin raised my hackles in Anjathey by portraying more than one of the victims in his Yudham Sei opting for suicide. Mani Ratnam and Ameer also killed off their rape victims.)
Therefore it is unfair to single out Rajini when the entire tamil industry barring a few eceptions are guilty of misogyny.
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Sudhir
December 19, 2014
How about the bit in the beginning of Baasha where one of his sisters fails her exam, and he’s saying, “You’ve failed your examination. What next? Marriage, of course!”
Mannan. Oh, dear me. Where should we start? About how Manorama requests Rajni to marry Vijayasanthi only so he can ‘control’ her? How he ridicules her for not being ‘adakka odukkam’? Or perhaps how her transformation is complete in the climax when she has quit her CEO job to become a lunch box-giving housewife in a pattu saree?
http://imgur.com/MRi4zdA
Check this image for proof on how the dashingly beautiful Vijayasanthi has turned over a new leaf and become so boring to even behold.
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Iswarya
December 19, 2014
BR, would you consider retitling this as the next ‘Broad Reflections’ post? I’m sure this is a subject on which a lot of people have strong opinions to register..
Enjoyed Rahini’s comment even in the earlier post and was about to respond. Now that you’ve brought it up here…
Has there ever been a period in Tamil cinema when misogyny was NOT the norm? It was not only in the revolting MGR canon of “ponnaa porandha..” or “pombala siricha..” If his brand of misogyny was mainly of the bravado-variety, which later spawned the Rajini-Kamal-Sathyaraj clones, Sivaji’s was the emotionally manipulative kind: think Thillana Mohanambal, Deiva Piravi and the likes. It was duly taken up, with sufficient tweaks, by Bhagyaraj, who didn’t have the physical skills of the former set to execute the bravado-routines of sexism.
These two being the broad territories of misogyny, it is no surprise that the ‘mass’ heroes and wannabes have perpetuated the MGR-Rajini route. I only wonder why nobody has decided to follow the footsteps of the earlier heroes on the emotional harassment side. That’s probably no longer saleable, considering that women these days
(a) hardly come to the theatres
(b) don’t seem to take these stuff seriously, either out of indifference or treating them as beneath even contempt.
But why actresses with even a modicum of intelligence still allow themselves to be routinely ogled at, pawed and what-not, and finally walked over by these ‘heroes’.. That’s what beats me.. People like Shruti Hassan, in fact, coolly participating in this, makes you wonder if only you are rather oversensitive!
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Iswarya
December 19, 2014
That said, curiously, I can’t easily recall any Gemini Ganesan film that went beyond taking the simple liberty of letting the ever-romantic hero marry multiple women, often by mistake, while never extending the same favour to the heroines in question. That just seems naïve and old-fashioned, of course, but nothing like the atrocities perpetrated by two of the biggest stars of the period.
Come to think of it, I guess the only hero of the period who embraced a catholic view of women, on the whole, was Jaishankar. I mean, the sheer mad variety of women in his movies was so interesting: those cow-girls, gangster’s secretaries, docile domestic women, impish PYTs, smart-alec college goers, egotistic dowagers, and so on. When he did the bravado-routines too, he made those look so comic. I suspect I can see him laughing at himself in many of his taming-of-the-shrew sequences.
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guest
December 20, 2014
I stopped watching Tamil films when I was old enough to think and understand how much Tamil movies influence and reflect Tamil society. I stopped watching becaue of the misogyny that is so ingrained that no one sees it as wrong – it doesn’t seem to grate.Rajnikanth is the worst offender simply because of his reach. To think he spouted this stuff in every film and most likely endorsed it has put me off him for ever.
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meera
December 20, 2014
Isn’t this a Tamil Cinema regression in general. ..am not excusing it but… for me the lowest of the lows is sivakasi where viJay chides asin for dressing “provocatively”… I think if there was a race then thalapathy (vijay) would win it hands down. ..
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Pannikutty Ramsamy
December 20, 2014
Surely, I am not the only one who knows the fact Rajini was just acting out the lines/actions written by such a regressive bunch of directors.
Just a couple of samples:
Padayappa – KSR – Natpukkaaga – Simran – Adikkira kai anaikkuma?
Ejamaan – RVU – Singaravelan – Ithuvallavo latchiyam
Mannan – PVasu – Chinna thambi – ‘nuf said
In fact I daresay > 95% of all thamizh films post the sakalakalavallavan / murattukkaalai era are misogynistic.
Singling Rajini out is frankly attention-seeking, particularly when he does not write scripts. That often anyway.
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ThouShaltNot
December 20, 2014
Speaking of regressive material, two dinosaurs were trudging along after a joint hunt…
The first dinosaur (the more reflective one) turned to the second dinosaur and remarked, “You think the meteor may have had a point after all and we simply missed it?”
The second dinosaur (staring like a clueless deer caught in the headlights) responded, “What?!”
Unimpressed, the first dinosaur shot back, “Naan oru dharava sonnaa…”
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Madan
December 20, 2014
Leave alone films, even off reel Dr KJY blamed women for wearing jeans and making men uncomfortable. As they say, art mirrors reality. Maybe the people posting here may find misogyny disturbing, but it’s quite possible that there’s a large hardcore patriarch constituency that indeed does not find misogynist heroes revolting. The so called ‘silent majority’.
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bart
December 20, 2014
If at all anybody has to take the blame, it goes to the sooriyan and not the torch lights – the earliest we know of, William Shakespeare. The word shrew stood for both genders but has been popularly used to refer women since 14 century as I understand from Thesaraus.com!
Regd the same story from the other gender view point – taming of rowdi heroes are the closest we’ve seen, thanks to Puthiya Pathai ? (Amarkalam to Chithiram pesuthadi; En raasavin manasile to Paruthiveeran).
The gender inequality in cinema (tamil at least) as a business – women writers to producers to directors, has probably been one of the reasons on most of these topics of gender insensitivity. Yes, the society lapping it up is a question of chicken and egg always.
Few of the current mainstream directors who have treated women better in their movies are – Radha Mohan, KV Anand and Vasanth. The best counter-point perhaps has been Aaranya kaandam’s heroine. The movie ends with her dialogue, “Ella aambalainga lume sappaidhan. The best thing about being a woman is, it’s a man’s world” 😀
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Priya Arun
December 20, 2014
Not blaming Rajinikanth directly. He doesn’t write the scripts. But it is HIM..the man himself. Doesn’t he have a say in such matters?
People like Partheban and (oh god) Bagyaraj wrote their scripts themselves. So they are best ignored.
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harikrishnan raveendran
December 20, 2014
@Anuja
There is a difference between showing reality and endorsing it.Isn’t it true that some rape victims opt for suicide instead of moving on or facing life bravely.We all know Mysskin is interested showing the dark side of life.I am talking about Mysskin only.
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Madan
December 20, 2014
@ harikrishnan raveendran: I think when, to refer to Anuja’s examples, the hero himself is a rapist, then the film becomes an endorsement of a terrible reality. If the filmmaker only observes reality and does not presume to judge it, then we can indeed say it doesn’t endorse it. I have not seen Mysskin’s other films but Onaayum Attukuttiyum was morally ambivalent enough not to be seen as glorifying a criminal.
Actually, misogyny is just one such aspect. In Indian commercial cinema, moral dilemmas are often over simplified to the point where they could be interpreted as glorifying or glossing over a grave misdeed.
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Gradwolf
December 20, 2014
All this discussion is severe “ongulku vandha ratham, engulku vandha thakkali chutney ah!”
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Hermoine Granger
December 20, 2014
Kudos to Rahini. I almost fell off the chair laughing at the comment about the market for BDSM! While not justifying his dialogues or nod to the story, Rajni is just another product of his times, and he has not said anything his many of his colleagues from the same era have not said in their films. As someone here said, he is the culprit because of his reach. What is more damaging is when celebrities take to the podium to give their idea of what is important for a woman’s life, like KJY.
See this video from Kochadaiyan audio launch when Rajni says that women should play an important role in growing up a child till 10-12 years of age and advises his daughter in public (!!!!!!!) to have children before she directs any more movies.
Such stars need to be more aware of what they are doing to women from different socioeconomic strata when their fans go: “Thalaivare soltaar naa…” Watch from 6.55 to 7.40 min.
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Firsttimecommenter
December 20, 2014
Sophistication has never been Sharkar’s forte… more so in the way he depicts the love angle … so no major expectations from him … But a filmmaker like Vasanth has got it worse … In his movies the lady who ends up with the hero is always a a virgin, even if she was married before .. meena in Rhythm becomes a widow even before spending a night with ramesh arvind . But not the case with Arjun and Jo !! And same with Padmapriya in Satham Podathey .. The heroines previous marriage if any never consummated !
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Rahini David
December 21, 2014
All: Thank you so much for the engaging comments. I have so many thoughts, I only hope I do justice to each.
On why I chose only Rajini Movies:
1) The topic was written in a Lingaa Thread. It seemed appropriate to make the point solely with Rajini Movies. And as you can see it wasn’t too difficult.
2) The next best option would have been to choose one movie from MGR, Sivaji movies and move forward in time until Dhanush. Who has that kind of time? Filtering Rajini’s filmography was a quick option.
3) What is the point in citing unknown examples? As somebody already pointed out, the main thing is that we still remember these movies. These movies are more a part of our collective memory than a Parthiban movie ever will be.
4) I have seen these Rajini movies. I have stopped watching Vijay and Ajith movies for the most part. Why should I inflict myself with stuff I know I’d hate? To say that the current crew is worse hardly diminishes my point. In fact, It makes my main point stronger. “Average Tamil Masala Movies Reek with Misogyny”.
5) Citing examples like Chinna Thambi or that horrible Parthiban-Sita movie is easy. But I cannot counter the claim that Shankar is worse than average using those examples. And Rajini movies qualify for the “average tamil masala movie” tag.
6) The industry is littered with Rajini-wannabes. If it was littered with S J Surya wannabes then I probably would havev picked him instead.
7) If I had chosen another director (say P.Vasu or Vikraman). It would have seemed like a Shankar vs P.Vasu vs Vikraman argument. I wasn’t going for that. Different movie directors made these movies. Misogyny is a common thread in these movies. Rajinikanth is another common thread in these movies.
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Rahini David
December 21, 2014
Why do our filmmakers have such a thing for misogyny anyway?
1) It is a male-dominated industry and that was the reply I had in mind for a long time. Women in movies are often Actresses, Playback singers or Dubbing artists. There is the odd costume designer here and there, but in general a very male industry. Female Directors and Screenplay writers would probably help. If women can become doctors and engineers, why can’t they become movie directors? Why should this be so?Shouldn’t directors like Suhasini come out of Maniratnam’s shadow? Her “Penn” was quite good, IMO.
2) As Iswarya mentioned, women these days hardly go to the movies. The movie going demographic is largely male and pleasing them would make sense. Before the advent of Television, masala movies were supposed to satisfy both young and old, male and female. That is not the definition anymore. Satisfy the type of men who would go for a friday night show in the opening weekend.
3) But if points 1 and 2 are the main reasons, then why are television serials worse offenders? Their demographic is ostensibly female.
Note: Yes, I know that 0.001% of all directors are female. I am asking why the percentage is higher. Please donot say “ABC had a female Director, XYZ had a female editor”
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Rahini David
December 21, 2014
Why do women in general and actresses in particular take this lying down?
This was raised by Filistine in the other thread. Here are a few answers I can come up with.
1) As Padhma was saying in the other thread. If there is demand, supply will automatically follow.
2) There is good money involved and not much time to make it. And if one girl is not willing, another one will be.
3) The girls begin their careers in their teens or their early 20’s. It is like a fresher fighting with a CEO of a company. It can be done. But it is not going to be the norm.
4) Women differ widely in what they consider offensive. There was a time when there was a huge objection to “Samanjathu Eppadi”. I never understood why this is worse than some other eve-teasing songs. Eve teasing songs in general prove to be a horrible menace to women in public transport and basically on the road. Roadside Romeos play it in their radios and sometimes sing it as they follow us. It is annoying that their behaviour is condoned in movies, it is even more annoying that they are equipped with catchy tunes and lyrics that is gifted to them by the best lyric-writers and music-directors in the business. I have a pet hatred for “Nee pathuttu ponalum pakkama ponalum pathukuttu thaan iruppean”. But so what if a song references menarche? The objection people seem to have is that the big “M” being referenced in movies, however subtley is a huge sin. I usually beg to differ.
5) Actresses who object do not always have their way. Rumour had it that Revathy objected all she could to the lyrics of “Karava Maadu Moonu” but could not change anything.
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Rahini David
December 21, 2014
Rajini is an actor. He is mouthing stuff written by others
Thanks for raising this point. I wanted to answer it anyway.
1) Well Rajinikanth can ask them to re-write that part and the writers will jump at the task. Have you not heard that Manorama was included in Arunachalam’s cast at Rajini’s insistence and that they gave her a very negative role. Rajini would not accept it and had them write a better part for her?
2) How many Atheistic lines has Rajini mouthed in his movies?
How many Atheistic lines has Kamal mouthed in his movies?
How many Atheistic lines has Satyaraj mouthed in his movies?
Do you really believe these men do not have a say in all this?
3) If you really believe that Rajini’s image was cultivated by his directors only and that he is a passive person to whom things happened rather than a person who had things happen to him. Then you are wronging him more than I am.
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Nitya
December 21, 2014
Would just like to add that I recently rewatched Singaravelan and was horrified by how misogynistic the entire movie was. It was one of my favorite movies as a kid and I must have watched it enough times to know lines by heart.
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brangan
December 21, 2014
Great discussion here. Just wanted to respond to the people who said “why hold Rajini responsible”? It’s because he’s the biggest star, whose films are watched by families. And his films are tailor-made to suit his “image,” so I believe he DOES have a say in his scripts. And this, I am sure, is not an image he wants to be left with. I mean, this is a man who decided not to smoke in films any longer because it was promoting negative values. What about this?
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Madan
December 21, 2014
I mean, this is a man who decided not to smoke in films any longer because it was promoting negative values.
– I don’t think this is contradictory (from his universe). As I said earlier in this thread, everybody doesn’t necessarily live in an ultra progressive universe. For a large section of otherwise perfectly reasonable and sensible Indians, there’s nothing wrong with the traditional patriarchal arrangement. Few months back when I was looking for a bride, I met a girl in her early twenties, who is passionate about animation/cartoons, wants to study design further and her parents wanted to marry her off. Such people still believe in the role of the male as the protector/rakshak of the woman. Make no mistake, a lot of women also buy into this. My colleague’s wife while posting on facebook to celebrate their first anniversary thanked her husband and “rakshak” (by the way, rakshak here means protector/guard and not to be confused with raakshas 😀 however appropriate it may be at times to do so). So Rajni is, from his point of view, making a responsible social statement even if we, from our view, think he’s got it horribly wrong.
If there’s one issue that reflects the India-Bharat divide, not so much in terms of urban v/s rural but in terms of progressive v/s conservative, it’s the patriarchal nature of Indian society. ‘We’ think it’s dead wrong and ‘they’ think it’s THE way to live. For them, somehow women’s liberation will push us into crass Westernisation while there’s absolutely nothing wrong, seemingly, with men craving the new found Western pleasures available since liberalisation.
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Ashutosh
December 21, 2014
@Rahini David: I just wanted to say: absolutely terrific responses. Really enjoyed reading them.
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brangan
December 21, 2014
Madan: This isn’t just about patriarchal values. This is also about putting goldfish into a blouse as part of a romantic/comedy track. I think there’s a difference between saying (as many do) “the man is the head of the house” etc. and having scenarios that reduce women to objects.
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Madan
December 21, 2014
BR: I am referring more to the clip Rahini posted earlier. It seems safe to say Rajni genuinely believes it is acceptable to say such things. And who says people with patriarchal values don’t ogle at women and intently analyse their anatomy and share lewd jokes on the internet or otherwise? From a certain (warped) point of view, it is acceptable to leer at women who apparently ‘show skin’ because ‘they are asking for it’ while at the same time, ‘protecting’ the woman you are married to from harm by confining her to the four walls of your neighbourhood. I think Rajni reflects this point of view, which is why a large majority of people don’t find it objectionable. This conservative constituency has not willingly allowed women to go to work. They are simply unable to resist the tide of change and/or are under financial pressure and could do with the wife’s additional income. But in their heart of hearts, they still believe the woman’s rightful place is in the kitchen. In stating these views on this forum, I might sound like bringing forth a point of view that belongs to another country but I meet such people all the time. As I said, perfectly reasonable and genuinely nice people in all other aspects. That is why I loved the Rajkummar Rao-played character in Queen; he represents exactly this constituency.
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vijay
December 21, 2014
BR, that goldfish scene in Veera might be an exception in the last 15-20 years or so(Kamal would have more scenes like that in the 80s/early 90s). Not defending Rajni but he doesn’t have that kind of a romantic image on screen. You would have more of a case if you stick to the patriarchy thing, but then like Madan said, in his universe(and a lot of others’) it probably isn’t contradicting anything. He probably doesn’t even think about those lines all that much as he probably thinks about his politically colored punchlines
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Filistine
December 21, 2014
@Rahini – thanks for raising this important issue. As I had said in the earlier thread, it amazes me why actress agree to play such demeaning roles. In fact, the tamil film industry is becoming more and more male dominated. Both from a maker perspective as well as from a viewer perspective. Female audiences stop patronizing tamil films. Makers realize that their viewership is mostly male. Hence they make films to ‘cater’ to the male gaze.
There was a time when we had home-grown actresses in the industry. Now all we have are imports from other parts of India who really are in it just for a quick buck. Earlier, we had women-oriented themes (my uncle used to talk about the time when Padmini had first billing in any movie she starred in!). Now we hardly have roles for women in films, unless you count the songs. Its a vicious cycle!
Apologies for the rant. But I guess I am one of those male feminists who would like to see more women in every facet of life.
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Filistine
December 21, 2014
By the way, Brangan, “Broad” Reflections? Pun intended?
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brangan
December 21, 2014
Madan: I am not saying that people with these notions don’t exist. I’m just saying that that doesn’t mean these things cannot be pointed out, or that someone can’t be pulled up for that. “They don’t know better” is a sorry excuse after so many years.
So they didn’t know better in the 50s. So they didn’t know better in the 60s. So they didn’t know better in the 70s. So they didn’t know better in the 80s. So they didn’t know better in the 90s. So they didn’t know better in the 00s. And they still don’t know better in the 10s.?
When do we stop excusing this, then?
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Rahini David
December 21, 2014
Madan and Vijay: You are saying that there is a still a world that does not want women to work, want them subservient to men, who’d never wear revealing stuff and would concentrate on their own limited circle of their own husband and children. That is fine. It is their world. The men in their world want to just provide for their wonderful wives and want to ogle other women who are from more skin-showing backgrounds. You are saying that Rajini and his fans are from this world so this is completely acceptable in this world.
1) Well, I don’t think any of us are strangers in this world you describe. We all come from this world. Not just our parents and grandparents, but we ourselves. I know that there are clothes that I can wear and get away with, that there are clothes that I better not experiment with. Many men I know smoke and most women I know don’t etc. I am standing inside this world when I say that this is unacceptable.
2) So a man notices that the girl next door shows more skin than his own sister, he wants to ogle her. Skin-show is new to him, he likes female skin. So far so good. But the male fantasy here seems to want to break her spirit, demean her, teach her a lesson and at the end she falls in love with him and learns her place? Why don’t the men of this “world” just keep with their madonnas and leave the women of the other world alone?
3) Kamal did it too? Yes, we saw his movies too. Why do people think that Kamal doing something too excuses Rajini? All of them doing it does not excuse any one of them. Certainy not the guy who is supposed to be the Mr.GoodExample.
4) I also feel that the Madonnas of this perfect “world” could do with some better treatment too. I will rant about that little later.
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Madan
December 21, 2014
Just a clarification. I did not say what Rajni did is acceptable (however much it may be acceptable to him and his ‘constituency’), so I don’t know how and where that has been inferred. All I am saying is it is neither surprising nor baffling that he’d do so. And maybe the difference here is I am pretty indifferent. To me, he’s just another actor, another entertainer, no matter how much his fanboys wish to deify him. And in the larger scheme of things, pretty insignificant and dispensable. How many of the younger generation watch MGR’s films today? I certainly don’t nor have the inclination to. I can at least watch a few of Sivaji’s films for his acting. In the same way, much of Rajni’s work will be relegated to the commercially successful but artistically uninspiring category with the passage of time. So I am not very concerned with what his statements or the amount of misogyny in his films does to his ‘image’ because it’s not a particular edifying one in any case from my point of view. A person in his position and power could have been far more influential artistically than he chose to be and he will pay the price for that.
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Madan
December 21, 2014
When do we stop excusing this, then?
– It is just art so there is nothing to either excuse or commend here. What the public can do is to vote with their feet. And so far they HAVE, unambigiously voting in favour of misogyny and representation of patriarchal cliches in the films. I said it before, if it’s so revolting, don’t watch it just because it stars Rajni. Let’s not kid ourselves, there are zillions of better films coming from Peter land than anything Rajni has done lately so there’s no reason to waste one’s money on it especially if one finds it so off putting and nostalgic sentiment should hardly be the reason imo. I have not watched any Rajni film, either in theater or on TV, after Padayappa, except Endhiran. I don’t think I am going to make an exception for Linga. I can’t help it if a lot of people actually have no problems with it and there are too many of them for me to revolt against it. So I simply decide that, in the words of Genesis, I know what I like in my wardrobe as well as on my television set. But as long as such films are successful, the conclusion, however unpalatable, would have to be that a large number of people do find it perfectly acceptable and it’s not going anywhere. Naan nidiyachu but avana nidutha sollu. 😛
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kainattu
December 21, 2014
In “sagalakala vallavan” the villain rapes kamal haasan’s sister…he uses all the tricks up in his sleeve so that he gets him to marry her in the end…..”U raped my sister…u have to marry her” is how his strenous efforts began ..may be that is why the film was called “sagalakala vallavan”
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ThouShaltNot
December 21, 2014
Singling Rajini out is frankly attention-seeking, particularly when he does not write scripts. That often anyway
Rajini *is* the script, Rajini *is* the dialogues, Rajini *is* the movie. Rajini is the de facto director. It is *his* movie lines which reverberate across the state. Such has been his sway. Here is Vadivukkarasi talking about “Arunachalam” and a Dindigul train incident:
So, there is no escape chute for him on that count. However, I agree that sexism and gender stereotyping (for Rajini, I’ll stay away from using the word misogyny) are not Rajini’s concoctions. That is the locus of a large swath of the viewing demographic in the state. But, for someone who seems otherwise socially conscious (and not just pocketbook driven), he should be careful about greenlighting dialogues / lyrics such as this:
Janma Janmamaa enakku kattupattu nee… Ethukku Vambu thumbu, ennidathil mandi podu nee…
(no, he did not make this up, but he should know what it means, beyond what it means when he says it… Agreed, his foil had some over-the-top lines as well, but why the need for such a foil)
This sort of thing reinforces already entrenched views about gender.
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KayKay
December 21, 2014
And scripted “gems” like this certainly don’t help:
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Ravi K
December 21, 2014
Madan wrote: “How many of the younger generation watch MGR’s films today? I certainly don’t nor have the inclination to. I can at least watch a few of Sivaji’s films for his acting. In the same way, much of Rajni’s work will be relegated to the commercially successful but artistically uninspiring category with the passage of time. So I am not very concerned with what his statements or the amount of misogyny in his films does to his ‘image’ because it’s not a particular edifying one in any case from my point of view. A person in his position and power could have been far more influential artistically than he chose to be and he will pay the price for that.”
I agree that the mass hero films don’t stand the test of time, but unfortunately the MGR template seems to have survived into today and shows no signs of slowing down. When films are not overtly invoking MGR, the storytelling and self-aggrandizing mass heroism of those films are in full force. Nobody seems to be interested in breaking away from this. At least in the past we had a Sivaji to MGR, Kamal to Rajini. Who is in that Sivaji/Kamal role today? Everyone wants to be MGR/Rajini, and unfortunately that heroism still includes regressive macho, misogynist attitudes. Our filmmakers may be using fancy digital toys and CG effects with DTS sound and digital projection, but the films themselves just portray the same old crap.
I guess Baba was as close to a departure as we were going to get from him, but even that was ultimately in the same mass hero mould. I hoped he would have used Chandramukhi as a goodbye to his mass hero avatar, with a career change from then on. But he’s hell bent on being the hero well past his prime and in the process looking like Steve Buscemi on “30 Rock” sadly pretending to be a teenager:
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Krishna
December 21, 2014
Excellent comments here.
I happened to watch Kaththi a couple of days back (surely a graduate student is allowed to have a bit more lunacy after a hard semester??) and my jaw dropped at a scene where Vijay slaps Samantha for absolutely no reason and there is no, and I mean NO, appropriate response from her. And, to make it even more jaw-dropping and blood-boiling, she is impressed that his slap is much stronger than the one she got from another person just a few hours back. And she smiles and gives ‘the’ look at him after just a few hours?? WHAT IS GOING ON??? Is this a norm in mainstream Tamil movies these days?
To think that this same Samantha played a supposedly strong woman in Kelatham Vasudev Menon’s movie.
On a side note, it was interesting that everyone (MNCs, corrupt police, elite bureaucrats, indifferent media, selfish city-dwellers whose approval and attention are somehow still needed) is blamed for the farmers’ plight except politicians!! 🙂
On a sider note, to alleviate myself of the Kaththi injuries, I watched the malayalam movie Artist by Shyamaprasad (Ore Kadal, Arike etc.). Perhaps Rahini should watch this too. It’s not as meaty as the excellent Arike but has a headstrong, sensible and clearly communicative woman character. As a bonus, his films that I have seen have sync sound which doesn’t suck the life out of a movie that dubbing usually does.
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bart
December 21, 2014
That was a great clip TSN 🙂 T q.
With Rajini’s box office clout under scanner with Lingaa, do the above criticisms still hold water only against him? Offlate , movies with such gender stereotyped themes don’t seem to do well – Karthi’s Alex Pandiyan or even shakthi chidambaram’s movies.. This years hits like Kaththi, goli soda, Jigarthanda or VIP didn’t have any outrageous “value” sermonising as much as I remember. Even the much hyped “item” numbers have stopped being a vogue or an attraction (e.g. Sunny L in Vadakari). However, we’ve had a hit movie that stereotyped not genders but the whole of city people and sermonised a lot – Manjappai. Is this progress? Or has the playing ground on this aspect now changed to TV mega serials?
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hari
December 21, 2014
Rahini take a bow again. Awesome comments.
Yes, I also don’t understand this point:-
3) But if points 1 and 2 are the main reasons, then why are television serials worse offenders? Their demographic is ostensibly female.
Forget movies, I have not seen anything as bad as they show in television serials and most of them are watched by women, not just older women, but also younger ones.
Beats me to the core.
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Madan
December 21, 2014
unfortunately the MGR template seems to have survived into today and shows no signs of slowing down. When films are not overtly invoking MGR, the storytelling and self-aggrandizing mass heroism of those films are in full force.
– Absolutely, couldn’t agree more. It’s not that there aren’t filmmakers trying to break the mould but their efforts have not so far yielded in anything that gets adopted for mass films. And after so many years, it looks unlikely to happen.
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bart
December 21, 2014
Just saw Krishna’s note on Kaththi and hence I am stumped. Not to forget “tuned” Anjaan! ( hence I am bowled) Now I also remember the infamous OKOK scene (last year – hence am told run out by third umpire). Yes, Jilla had Ilaya thalavali eve-teasing Kajal (I am caught). Not to forget Hari’s Poojai (am banned from further play of this topic) !!!
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vijay
December 21, 2014
BR, come on, you are equating sensitivity for cigarette smoking to that of misogyny on screen? Our films or TV channels flash those statutory warnings when a character onscreen drinks or smokes.How far are we from having a warning flash every time a female character gets slapped on screen?
We live in a world where if somebody gets raped in a moving car in the capital, the heads of the state say that the girl dressed provocatively and almost asked for it and that “boys will be boys”. With that kind of sensitivity you cant expect our film stars alone to be bleeding heart liberals or carry a torch for feminism on screen. I am not saying what they are doing is right or that we don’t have a right to pull them up, but the expectations are a bit unreasonable here.
Look at the audience Rajni caters to and the kind of directors he works with. KS sorikumar, sori, AR murukkuvikkaradoss ivanga padathulla ellam poyi sensitivity to feminism illayennu varutha padardhu is like expecting musical depth in an Anirudh song. And these are the kind of directors that Rajni frequently works with. IF those kind of scenes figure in say, a GVM or Mani film, then we would be a bit more disconcerted.
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damilan
December 22, 2014
BR, in a previous post, I remember you giving Kamal a “clean chit” saying film-making is a business at the end of the day and that he needs to make money, when I attempted to point out that he has the responsibility to mentor junior artists.
I’m wondering if the same argument will not work here? If their responsibility is to make money, why question their role in perpetuating patriarchy? It’s what the people want, after all?
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guest
December 22, 2014
relevant : http://www.thenewsminute.com/entertainments/498 (Has anyone noticed the slyly degrading domestic violence Lingaa portrayed)
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sachita
December 22, 2014
Wow… this has been burning in my head too for the very same reasons.
The torture of seeing these movies and then venting out for a good hour to your friend and viceversa- reason why i stopped watching vijay movies.
I hear people quote Mannan(without any thought to the misogyny) as their most favorite rajni movie/ padayappa(Mannan has a secretary transforming into a CEO in half a day), not sure where to hit their head.
You guys left P Vasu and his most cringeworthy scenes on widowhood.
And harikrishnan raveendran:::::: That is not the reality…
Just to quote you an example, the question the delhi rape victim had clearly expressed her desire to live and have kids.
As a woman thats how i would feel too.
Also Let me say this, just one Movie scene which has handled rape scene the way it should have been – was Indra. It is shown delicately and next day you hear Arvindswamy saying to Anu hassan it is an accident.. that is what it is.
Even the revenge has to be done by a Man – not by a woman herself…
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Balasubramanian
December 22, 2014
The taming of the woman is done in a similar vein to something like teaching lesson to a rich antagonist..Both the situations are designed to appeal to the masses who are beyond the reach of money and good looking women..It’s more like saying-okay don’t worry that you are not able to get a hand on this..it s after all imperfect and let’s make sour grapes out of it..
I believe that the moral policing by our male on the screen is just similar to the morality that was the invented by the have note against the haves. If we extend the same logic, this behaviour would make a case for the “men are the weaker sex” argument.
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KayKay
December 22, 2014
Krishna, this overt misogyny in Tamil Movies is one of the main reasons I totally went off them for much of the ’90s.
Even movies that were fairly entertaining on the whole would feature a scene of casual violence towards women that left a bitter after taste.
I remember a Karthik movie called Kizhakku Vaasal that I sorta enjoyed (featuring a killer Raja soundtrack) until a scene where the actor who plays Kushboo’s father starts beating up his wife ( yep, a full blown pasting as opposed to just a slap) because of something his daughter did. Upon being asked by Kushboo why he’s beating her mother instead of her he replies “You’re my life. How can I beat you?” .
I turned out right about then.
This dichotomy in the filmic archetype of the Macho Indian Male ( an outpouring of paternal love for the daughter while maintaining a callous, boorish attitude towards the wife) warrants some analysis but certainly not my acceptance of it to enjoy a film.
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Gradwolf
December 22, 2014
@Krishna
Digression but because you brought up Kaththi and politicians angle, the only appropriate response to all of it is here:
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Rahini David
December 22, 2014
Rape Victims do really commit suicide. Movies just show that
1) I follow an active Indian feminist blog meticulously and used to read the rape case histories in newspapers even if I did not read political stuff in them. Trust me there are not many cases were the woman hangs herself because she was raped once. It is either murder by the rapist himself or by subsequent injuries or by the family. That is how it is in real life. In tamil movies, however, Rape is shown as worse than death. Women who die trying to avoid rape(jumping out of a highrise building or some such thing) are said to have “escaped”. Strong implications that honourable kavari maan women would much rather die than be raped exists in many dialogues.
2) It may(or may not) be true that a raped girl commiting suicide made sense in Myskin’s story. The Gang Rape and subsequent murder of Priya Mani may increase the level of melodrama in the movies. I have not watched Yuddham Sei, Raavanan or Paruthiveeran. But there is no question that these characters are often killed off so that the writers do not have to answer the “What next” part of her character.
3) The Vamps of MGR movies used to catch a bullet that was intended for him for the very same reason. the writers do not know what to do with her character just before “Subam”, so they kill her off.
4) I just read the plot of Paruthiveeran. She wants to be cut to pieces as she “does not want anybody to find her like this”? It is basically the same thing over and over again.
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Gradwolf
December 22, 2014
@Madan: I’ve completely lost you. I am not even sure what point you are trying to make here and which side you are on. But the “this sells, why stop” logic probably is ok for till the 80s or the versions of Kamal and Rajini just starting out. For those bringing up Sagalakalavallavan, here is Kamal talking on why he took up that film and am sure at that point in time, it was true for Rajini too:
http://www.thehindu.com/features/cinema/rudhraiya-obituary-kamal-haasan-pays-homage-to-rudhraiya/article6615265.ece
But since then the way we look at films have changed. The way we analyze films have changed. We are more open and critical of sexism and misogyny in films and any work of art. I am the last person to bring in ideology in a criticism of any work. I absolutely loathe it. It is sometimes too easy. Too simplistic. Like I found it ridiculous to say Gone Girl is misogynist (and some people agreeing with the Rajini post here may as well disagree with me on this). But that’s not to say such propaganda-ish works don’t exist. And Rajini is a different beast. He gives sermons. He endorses qualities wrt what he says or does in his films. That’s why, in 2014, all this crops up. I am sure we can do the same exercise to MGR. And can even end up with a “product of their times” tag. The problem with Rajini is simply here:
Lol @ description
Life lessons it seems. (And I know my intense hate for Padaiyappa as a film is showing)
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Rahini David
December 22, 2014
5) In Mahanadhi, a girl who is rescued from a Brothel is shown to get married and have a child. This is a wonderful exception. Her marriage is not shown in any scene. When her father leaves the Jail she has a child in her hand and there is a guy next to her. That alone shows what happened next.
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Lakshmi
December 22, 2014
Good job, Rahini!
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niranjanmb
December 22, 2014
Two points.
I. Here is a recommendation for a couple of movie reviews (sorry Brangan, but I couldn’t resist sharing these links) on youtube. For one, these guys have a great sense of humor. Here are a couple in particular that are relevant to this discussion.
The staggering levels of misogyny in these movies would perhaps merit another discussion in itself, especially the casual attitude towards rape and the preposterous sanctity associated with female virginity.
2. The DDLJ kind of film is insidious because while the female characters are superficially all metro-modern-cool and all that, they espouse medieval minded ‘values’ (The whole karva chauth sequence is one of DDLJs most grating legacies amongst other things) which lead one to believe that all that is uttered and portrayed there is part of a greater cultural heritage, which we have lost or don’t understand properly – basically a load of bull.
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aravind86
December 22, 2014
In Padayappa, isnt this the biggest misogyny – the types of girls as put forth by Rajini?
” Saatvikam: These are the kind of girls, when ever you see them, you feel like giving respect. she will be wearing a clean dress, with our any vulgarity. With a long hair and flowers on them
Prachodakam: These are the kind of the girls, who try to expose as much as possible. they delibrtly dont expose, but the way they dress, will do that stuff. Usualy wearing tight jeans, T-shirt, gogles, ful facial etc etc.
Bhayanakam: As the word says, as you see them you will get horrified. the most striking feature with this kind of species is HAIR and EYES. you can call this as improved version of prachodakam.”
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KayKay
December 22, 2014
guest: Oh yeah, hahahaha….sure I remember that hilarious side plot where Chick Magnet Ilavarasu marries a White Girl (right after it’s inferred, via muted dialogue that he has a schlong long enough to qualify as a Third Leg and the bedroom skills of a male porn star) and then proceeds to berate her and even slap her in one scene while she wears a saree and joins the dam-building labor force hauling bricks and cement. Sex God Ilavarasu also ensures she makes regular trips to the Delivery Room.
I was going to mention it in the Lingaa post but figured I’d exceeded my rant-quota there:-)
That’s basically the film-makers giving you a “2-for-1” package deal:
The traditional misogyny supersized with the dick-waving Macho Black Man Puts White Girl In Her Place agenda, which is traditionally played out as part of the main plot where our dusky Young Commanders bitch-slap Fair Skinned Punjabi Imports into docile servility.
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rothrocks
December 22, 2014
@ gradwolf: Oh by all means criticize misogyny in films. I am all for it. These stars have been deiified for too long just for acting in films and I don’t mind seeing them brought down to earth a bit. I am just saying it would be unrealistic to expect Rajni to make (as in use his influence) ‘responsible’ films because even if you and I may be in 2014, he’s still in MGR land. As a people, we first idolize stars beyond all proportion and then feel let down when the star turns out to be very human and painfully flawed. Who is at fault here? Certainly not the star; he’s just riding the gravy train.
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vaidya
December 22, 2014
Interesting post and needs debating!
Just yesterday was thinking of “alavukkadhigama aasai padara aambalayum alavakkuadhigama kova padara pombalayum nalla vaazhndha charithirame kidaiyaadu”. That too being said by a guy with a fleet of Mercs to show his status. And what about Sivaji with the blatant materialism?
Also, remember the fire rescue scene in Endhiran where the girl commits suicide for being rescued while bathing and the robot needs to be sensitized? Wondered what the ‘sensitization’ would’ve produced: How would Chitti have responded to the same event after the “sensitization”?
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Rahini David
December 22, 2014
Madan: You sound as if you are talking about the Potterverse.
House-elves love being mistreated. We wizards maynot understand it, but nothing gives an house-elf better pleasure than serving the wizard’s family. A good house-elf will feel insulted if you offer her wages. She will die of shame if you set her free. They are not us. blah blah and blah.
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hari
December 22, 2014
Vaidya, that scene your refer to Endhiran takes the top billing for the “most cringe inducing” scene of all times.
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Iswarya
December 22, 2014
@Gradwolf:
The commercial pressures that drove both Kamal and Rajini might account for their early-in-the-career choices. To us now, the movies seem dated in so many ways, right from production values, technical accomplishments and so on. In much the same way, their strongly held social beliefs grate on us. That’s understandable. This doesn’t necessarily excuse them, but at least explains them.
However, the obviously griping fact is that Rajini, despite making more money and achieving a greater public influence or image than Kamal, has simply failed (or refused) to grow up. Kamal’s Mahanadhi has been mentioned here, and that’s just an example for a significant change of attitude, a sign of a certain evolving with age. But, the same doesn’t apply to Rajini. For instance, compare the mature characterisation of Rohini in Virumandi with any woman character in a Rajini movie in the same decade or even later. All his women fit into a handful of childish and grotesque templates, and so his (mis)treatment of these women caricatures is simply in keeping with their puerile conception in the first place.
His off-screen opinions on the role of women, as in the clip Rajini posted here, show the same fundamental refusal to acknowledge the constantly changing reality around him. Kamal, on the other hand, has come a long way, both on- and off-screen, to recognise what women suffer in the Tamil tinsel world. Evidence what he spoke in last year’s Hindu Lit Fest.
While Rajini is perceived as having spiritually evolved (what with all his frequent trips to the Himalayas), thereby providing a lot of young stars with a role model, the fact is that he is still stuck in his teenager fantasies on screen. He seems to recognise the problem only partially, making all those statements about having to romance girls who are like his daughters, calling it apparently his punishment and what-not. The simple fact is that his on-screen persona has become schizoidally frozen in a certain period, turning thoroughly retarded over time, and is refusing to wake up. Maybe the colossal failure of Lingaa might lead him to some introspection that’s long overdue.
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brangan
December 22, 2014
damilan: As people have said above, it’s the evolution that we see. if Kamal, today, was still making a “Sakalakalavallavan,” then he’d be under fire too.
When I speak of Kamal’s evolution, I speak generally from the late 80s stage, which is when he CONSISTENTLY started shaping his films (as opposed to earlier, when he acted in decent films, yes, but they weren’t really HIS films but more the director’s).
I wish to point out another thing. There’s a difference between a character shown to be misogynistic (or whatever word you want to use) as part of the film’s texture (i.e. to show that all kinds exist in this world) and the hero repeatedly shown to be like this.
For instance, Kamal asking Rohini what her bra size is in “Virumaandi.” There’s a world of difference between this scene (which is a deliberate dramatic construct, intended to evoke a specific reaction from her) and someone blatantly eve-teasing a female character for jollies.
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Vasanth Rajagopal
December 22, 2014
haha…There’s something fundamentally wrong in the way you see things.., probably..something in your head is a big bug.., audience who come out of theater doesnt remember anything except joy particularly for rajini movies, its a joy ride..a roller coaster..kinda experience…you have waster half of your life atleast or maybe more..without knowing how rajini dialogues are now been used in managment lessons.., its not the one who wrote the dialogues, but the one who said it made the impact..you need a doctor buddy..to me ..u see the black dots on a white paper., this dot what you told is not even a dot., but a pin hole made by the compass on the center of a paper while the pencil in the compass had already many several circles..Thalaivar is like a tsunami report on a map with epicenter in Tamilnadu…
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Ravi K
December 22, 2014
The title “Lingaa” is itself phallic! 😛
Rothrocks says, “I am just saying it would be unrealistic to expect Rajni to make (as in use his influence) ‘responsible’ films because even if you and I may be in 2014, he’s still in MGR land. As a people, we first idolize stars beyond all proportion and then feel let down when the star turns out to be very human and painfully flawed. Who is at fault here? Certainly not the star; he’s just riding the gravy train.”
I don’t expect 64-year-old Rajini to hold particularly progressive views on gender. It’s likely that he doesn’t see that Tamil cinema even has problems to be solved in that area. That the younger generation of actors and filmmakers are perpetuating the same attitudes is the real disappointment.
Many of these Tamil/Telugu films are being remade in Hindi, but it seems that among Hindi viewers these films are seen as kind of low-grade “front-bencher” films, whereas these are the mainstream films in Tamil and Telugu, even in A-centres.
Living in the US I don’t know the ground reality of what people believe in India, or how much those beliefs differ from city to city. But it seems to me that even among educated people there is a lot of progress left to be made in general, regarding feminism, homosexuality, religion, etc.
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Vasanth Rajagopal
December 22, 2014
It’s the problem with people who see linga…Rajini’s Movies have always been the same over 5 decades..A Larger than life hero.., a superman or a james bond., one who jumps from hills., one who can kill 100 ppl in one punch., Graphically appealing scenes doesnt have logic my frend..it is just visually appealing. People’s expectations have changed after Sivaji and Endhiran., people wanted movies with logic now.,Many wants Rajini’s Trademark formula movies., with just style and dialogues., that;’s enof…If he comes with a social message you’ll drag him to politics..if he comes with formula movies you’ll criticise….you don’t have originality..or a tongue to taste all flavours., its just your fault..buddy..
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rothrocks
December 22, 2014
@ Rahini: I am not. However if you have made up your mind that my intention here is to defend Rajni, then nothing I say is going to be of consequence so I might as well not try.
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neena
December 22, 2014
Whoa! Glad this discussion has been picked up 🙂
“there’s a difference between saying (as many do) “the man is the head of the house” etc. and having scenarios that reduce women to objects.”
Is there, really? Tamil cinema may have many instances of the latter, because of which some of us ‘respectably’ keep off those what cud be called B & C movies. But, A centre movies like Shankar’s and Mani Ratnam’s also seem to perpetuate the same values, dressed up in more acceptable attire.
For eg, this comment says: “If there’s one issue that reflects the India-Bharat divide…it’s the patriarchal nature of Indian society.” That’s hardly true. Even among the supposedly most modern or liberal families/communities/societies, patriarchy is entrenched. Hasn’t it been discussed in multiple forums in the post 16-Dec-2012 India, how deifying women as goddess or ‘kuthuvilakku of the kudumbam’ and objectifying her as ‘nattu kattai’ or ‘varutha kozhi’ are two sides of the same coin?
Maybe, it wud be a useful exercise to list Tamil movies/directors who have taken up more realistic and progressive portrayals of women. Gautam Menon? Granted his heroines are idealised versions of the modern urban woman who almost walk with an aura; but they do have their own complexities and are almost never deified or objectified.
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Gradwolf
December 22, 2014
@Iswarya
Yes, we are on the same side 🙂
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neena
December 22, 2014
There was also a comment about Masculinity proved by the best Slap on the heroine’s face, which reminded me of that very edgy scene in Moodar Koodam when a child is shown to be watching Mannan (I think) and then receiving a slap from a ‘thief’, develops a giant crush on him. Was that awesome subversion or creepy & disturbing?
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Madan
December 22, 2014
Even among the supposedly most modern or liberal families/communities/societies, patriarchy is entrenched.
– Really? Speak for yourself, my friend. In our family, we have never stood in the way of women wishing to pursue their work or their passion or both, as may be the case. I have certainly not, and never will, accept any dowry from my wife-to-be’s parents and make sure their gifts are reciprocated. There are other aspects I could point out but I think this will do for the moment. I think pretending that everyone’s on the enemy front is a great way to lose the battle, godspeed.
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Iswarya
December 22, 2014
Interestingly, catching Padayappa after all these years on TV on some random night can be a very eye-opening experience. For once, I felt some genuine admiration for the portions involving Ramya Krishnan, especially where she appears to see through the patent absurdities that the movie endorses and seeks to perpetuate, right from the unscientific snake-drinking-milk to (as BR recently mentioned) the bull seeing red!
That she’s made a sad caricature in portions after Rajini’s marriage are just a matter of convenient contrivance. But, the fascinating part about the movie now is the kind of Orwellian doublethink it allows. I mean, what is portrayed as exaggerated, grotesquely unorthodox behaviour, held up primarily as an abomination for the pious to behold and be wary of, later turns into a perfectly reasonable and convincing articulation of your own ideas once walk out of the holy camp. Seen in this light, the ending of the movie with its less-than-video-game quality ending with a dodging of bullets, seems like just a piece of pathetic trickery and when RK kills herself, it’s probably because she can’t take the unfairness of it all any longer. (It’s a bad, worthless world indeed in which to live if even bullets can’t finish off a pestilential jerk like the Rajini character there.)
Even without these radical views, I wonder how nobody notices how much more presence the woman in question has in that last scene, and how even as a piece of dialogue, Rajini’s delivery of the coda (Adhigama..) after her death seems a pathetically insufficient conclusion slapped on a riveting dramatic event.
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burcidibollyreview
December 22, 2014
@Krishna– I saw that too in Kaththi. Have you seen Jilla? There is a similar awful scene in Jilla where Kajal grabs Vijay’s *pardon the language* ass, and Vijay does the same. Is this the example that millions of fans need to have?? Especially considering the amount of sexual violence that occurs in India?
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Madan
December 22, 2014
I still don’t really understand this fuss about setting an example. Since when is Indian commercial cinema supposed to set an example for ANYTHING in particular other than, perhaps, mediocrity and bad taste in heaped helpings? If you find it revolting, don’t watch. There are many other avenues of entertainment. It is art, art is not intended to be ‘responsible’ nor is it, at least most of the time, responsible for anything. It just is, an ultimately desultory and titillating pursuit that we in the audience indulge in because we’re addicted to the fix.
If you think misogyny in cinema is unacceptable, at least don’t help the likes of Vijay to succeed with their films.
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brangan
December 22, 2014
Madan: You’re right, of course. Art isn’t obliged to do anything — and certainly not change society.
I think what’s happening here is more on the lines of venting — about how people in power aren’t doing what we’d like them to do.
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Rahini David
December 22, 2014
Madan: Are you rothrocks? I never said you defended Rajini movies. Merely that you share Hagrid’s thought process.
You have stopped watching Rajini’s movies? So have I. You will not receive dowry? I didn’t give any. More power to you and me.
Something you are saying here gets lost in translation. Maybe other utopians get you.
Something we are discussing here gets lost on you too. That is alright. I don’t think it is terribly important.
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Ravi K
December 22, 2014
Madan wrote, “I still don’t really understand this fuss about setting an example. Since when is Indian commercial cinema supposed to set an example for ANYTHING in particular other than, perhaps, mediocrity and bad taste in heaped helpings?”
I don’t want films to overtly set examples or sermonize, but they should avoid having the protagonists explicitly or implicitly promoting regressive values when the protagonists are held up as unquestionable paragons of virtue. It would be a different case if these guys were presented as flawed anti-heroes.
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burcidibollyreview
December 22, 2014
Art isn’t responsible in and of itself. In any other country, cinema doesn’t have responsibility for society’s choices. But that’s not true for Indian cinema because a large portion of Indian cinemagoers idolize film stars to the extent of adapting their worldviews and behavior. At that point, those stars start becoming responsible.
What you say will be true when the Indian audience stops taking film stars as their role models, at sometimes alarming levels. And frankly, the “art is art is art,” and “art has no responsibility” arguments are getting a little old. Art won’t carry that responsibility when cinema-goers don’t give it that much importance.
And if cinema has no impact on the viewer at all, then why do we have censor boards that determine what is suitable for people to watch? Why do some countries go to lengths to prevent their citizens from watching films and content with political or social messages? It’s because cinema has an impact. It CAN affect the way someone thinks. And if an actor has great influence on the content of a film, then that responsibility falls on him as well.
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vijay
December 22, 2014
“However, the obviously griping fact is that Rajini, despite making more money and achieving a greater public influence or image than Kamal, has simply failed (or refused) to grow up. Kamal’s Mahanadhi has been mentioned here, and that’s just an example for a significant change of attitude, a sign of a certain evolving with age. But, the same doesn’t apply to Rajini. For instance, compare the mature characterisation of Rohini in Virumandi with any woman character in a Rajini movie in the same decade or even later. All his women fit into a handful of childish and grotesque templates, and so his (mis)treatment of these women caricatures is simply in keeping with their puerile conception in the first place.”
So you expected Rajni to perform or evolve the same way that Kamal did in his career? Then he wouldn’t be Rajni, would he?
Rohini in Virumandi vs any woman character in a masala Rajni film is apples-to-apples comparison in your world?
If you cant find a mature female lead character in a Rajni film, it is probably because you cant find a film like Virumandi either in Rajni’s filmography in the last 25 years.
How mature was Bindiya’s character in Kalaignan or Kushbu’s character in singaaravelan or soundarya’s character in kaadhala kaadhala or Meena’s in Avvai shanmughi?These were movies that came after 1990 by the way . Now these are the characters that you should be comparing with “any woman’s character in a Rajni film”.
Watch the scene in singaaravelan where they try to use computer graphics to project how Kushboo would look now based on her childhood photograph and the ensuing dialogue.
The way some of you people are putting forth your arguments I would expect next a post where someone questions why Rajni didnt start his own company like a Rajkamal productions and produced/acted in offbeat experimental movies and such.
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guest
December 22, 2014
haha – I was wondering when the thalaivar fan club would land
@vasantha gopal: what a profound set of thoughts buddy. yeah, these ppl are dum in their heads. Ignore them. Thalaivar rocks! massss
I have always been astounded by how little empathy Tamil men show towards 50 % of the Tamil population i.e. the women. Always in internet conversations that pull up folks or only bring up these issues, ratinalization comes swiftly, followed by “stop being oversensitive – it’s only entertainment / only a reflection of society, cannot be helped/ there’s nothing inherently wrong with it, Indian society requires these structures in place/ ad infinitum.” Look up any Tamil youtube video with a woman in it and look at the comments.
Change requires people to first realise what a disservice these films and this mindset does to 50 % of the population, especially among classes where movies definitely do influence attitudes and behaviour. For example, I have never seen any mainstream publication call out Rajnikanth films for their incredibly misogynistic portrayal. I have never seen the fulsome praise of Rajinikanth as some kind of human saint tempred by his espousal of very troubling misogyny. This would never fly in a more equal society.
To people that ask what the point is of calling this out, that art need not set an example: I’m calling it out because I want to watch Tamil movies too. If no one ever realises that soemthing is a problem, how will anything change? I want it to change.
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udhaysankar
December 22, 2014
kay kay:”And scripted “gems” like this certainly don’t help:………”
lmfao…….Oh man!!you’ve got an terrific sense of humor……..
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Govardhanen
December 23, 2014
Another thing seen from a perspective away from being in India for some time. I don’t get why most movies have to show the “hero” to have to constantly have a drink or two., further a pointless disclaimer about smoking/drinking being injurious to our health constantly scrolling beneath. I don’t recall this being the case just a few years ago. What a lamentable state of affairs.
BR & Others : What a fantastic set of commentators here. I greatly enjoy the various comments & ripostes, even if I don’t agree with some of what is said(I really don’t get what was so great about Mishkin’s OA). May be I am a mere simpleton looking for pure escapist entertainment.
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Madan
December 23, 2014
Rahini: Actually I think I am the anti-utopian here. I just think it is utopian to attempt to hold up our superstars to certain standards just because a lot of people would like to idolize them. In reality, they are just canny, successful people who like food on the table. Is misogyny in films horrible? Absolutely. But if we press further and start demanding that Rajni should be ‘responsible’ then we also need to recognise that he espouses a set of values that don’t resonate with us. You say you meet such people too (patriarchal). Then you also know that there is next to no common ground to be found in discussing these issues with them. All I am saying is Rajni addresses this constituency. I guess most of us posting here became ‘fans’ in a manner of speaking at a point when we may have been too young to ponder over these issues but now that we can, we find it distasteful and have moved on. But as long as there’s a large fanbase that hasn’t yet moved on, Rajni will keep acting in such films and if not Rajni, it will be Vijay, so on and so forth.
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Madan
December 23, 2014
Ravi K: I can agree with ‘avoid’ to some extent. And that’s as far as I would go. I personally wouldn’t put a should or must on it. It would be nice if they did avoid it. But it’s wishful thinking for the most part.
burcidibollyreview: Well, that’s really the audience’s fault, not the filmmaker’s. The audience has to take accountability for their actions sometimes, you know. If millions of (presumably young) fans want to ape Vijay, what’s stopping their parents from counselling them? The least the parents could do is to find something better to watch than a Vijay film. This is like how Indians want to watch Big Boss with their kids but want its content cleaned up at the same time.
As for why some, in fact a lot of, countries wield the censor board axe, well, just because governments are trigger happy and love power like anything. What is the censor board anyway but just another form of licence raj to extort and harass filmmakers? Wasn’t there an actual instance of quid pro quo in return for certificates that came out in the last few months? In extreme circumstances, like blatant falsification of actual events or overt espousal of a hateful propaganda, censorship may be justified but not in many of the other pretexts under which it is applied. I really don’t think display of nudity in a film is a law and order issue and better wisdom seriously ought to prevail.
But meanwhile, censorship hardly affects the Rajnis and Vijays of the world. They can seemingly say whatever they want and get away with it. It’s independent filmmakers who get the raw end of the stick because they lack the financial muscle to pacify hard to please censor authorities.
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Ravi K
December 23, 2014
Putting aside film certification boards’ restrictions on sex or violence, at best, film certification boards exist to promote the values of the old guard, rather than to make sure progressive values are espoused. At worst, they exist to make sure nothing changes the status quo or challenges the ruling class’ dominance by getting people riled up. You can easily make a film with regressive views on women, gays, etc, but good luck getting a film made in India that is highly critical of the government, police, or religion.
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Rahini David
December 23, 2014
Madan: “Well, that’s really the audience’s fault, not the filmmaker’s.”
There is absolutely no question about it. When I say “Look at the misogyny in an average masala movie” i really mean “Look at what the society we live in likes and applauds”.
Certainly If garbage sells, garbage will be sold. I am wondering why garbage is selling at such a high rate here. I am not faulting these kodeeswarans for finding this crap and putting it out on a gold plate. It is the people who relish this who are at fault.
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Filistine
December 23, 2014
“To people that ask what the point is of calling this out, that art need not set an example: I’m calling it out because I want to watch Tamil movies too. If no one ever realises that soemthing is a problem, how will anything change? I want it to change.”
Absolutely right, Guest. I guess we need more people to “call out” issues related to cinema if we want the kind of cinema we want to see.
Rahini – ever considered starting an alternate blog to review films? Maybe what we need is more women critics, to bring in a more balanced view of the industry. I am sure Brangan wouldn’t mind!
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Krishna
December 23, 2014
Regarding the chicken-and-egg situation of filmmakers and the audience…
Since it’s the Times of Modi now, perhaps we should collectively start demanding a supply-side arts regime.
Achche din aane ki sambaavna hai (?). 😉
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neena
December 23, 2014
What does it even mean to say ‘if you don’t like it, don’t watch it’ in the case of commercial cinema, which is art, but is popular art. Sure, art is not obliged to do anything and society is obviously instrumental in misogynist art succeeding. But, how wud art be interesting if people who disagree with it or find it problematic didn’t engage with it? I would certainly not give up watching Vijay or Rajini movies because they are misogynist. Yes, it is a painful experience. And it ultimately benefits the producers’ & actors’ coffers. Might watch in thiruttu vcd to mitigate that 🙂
But, I can’t stay away from it and say, that film caters to a different constituency and I can’t do much about it. In reality, people I know, who are in my family, who I work with, may espouse those values, if misogyny could be called that. [@ Madan: Patriarchy is a structure and it sustains by being all pervasive; calling it out doesn’t mean I mark out everyone as an enemy. I am part of the structure too]
I would also be doing injustice to those women who can’t speak up, for whatever reason. Maybe, there are thousands of women watching these films with their families and feeling sick but not really speaking up. How realistic is it to expect that any number of women would tell their families and friends that they are not going with them to a popular movie because it its misogynist? Also, this is hardly a question of just Tamil films. We would have to be watching a very selective bit of popular culture if we want to avoid whatever is offending to us.
And these artists do gain power through their cultural capital. It is not a simple case of them cashing in on what society wants to watch. They have carefully cultivated a fandom for their specific persona. Rajini’s heroism/machoism would be applauded even without his misogyny. Shankar’s flms would be entertaining without their objectification of women. That is, even before these artists became big names. For instance, in Gentleman, remove the scene with the Subhashri character getting molested and Arjun advising her later that she should dress like Susheela to stay safe, it wouldn’t change the movie or its entertainment value in anyway. This was Shankar’s first film. I haven’t watched enough of Rajini’s early movies to pick out examples from them. It would be naive, especially with Tamil Nadu’s history of film-politics relationship, to say that film is just art which we don’t have to engage with socially/politically, or that film is just a commercial enterprise which sells what society wants.
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sundar
December 23, 2014
People r talkin bout objectification of women in Tamil film industry wat bout Bollywood which has a much more global reach were objectification n degrading women is so common? This trend is followed in all industries n in all walks of life n pple with the ability n the influence to change t must take action instead of bein mum bout t
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Madan
December 23, 2014
In reality, people I know, who are in my family, who I work with, may espouse those values, if misogyny could be called that.
– So start a conversation with them. That is a much more sustainable basis to influence change. Just making progressive movies will not change the mindset of the people and I think we’ve seen enough evidence of that.
It would be naive, especially with Tamil Nadu’s history of film-politics relationship, to say that film is just art which we don’t have to engage with socially/politically, or that film is just a commercial enterprise which sells what society wants.
– It’s not naive but maybe just too practical a position when applied to a state that seemingly has no compunctions about idolizing people. It would be a lot better if people saw cinema for what it is and didn’t take it too seriously. Unfortunately, a lot many insist on doing so. But that’s still not the filmmaker’s fault.
Patriarchy is a structure and it sustains by being all pervasive; calling it out doesn’t mean I mark out everyone as an enemy. I am part of the structure too
– Where have I objected to calling out patriarchy? I am just saying, let’s not get carried away in making wild generalisations. That this conversation is happening is itself proof that not everyone believes in the patriarchal structure.
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Madan
December 23, 2014
I am not faulting these kodeeswarans for finding this crap and putting it out on a gold plate. It is the people who relish this who are at fault.
– I cannot agree more since that is what I have been saying from the beginning anyway.
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Rahini David
December 23, 2014
Filistine: It is true that women reviewers bring a different angle to reviewing. But then again I watch only 4-5 movies per year. It makes sense to use this blog’s comment space rather than use a separate blog.
But then again, the part women play in our movies is too small to warrant a separate blog anyway.
Moreover, this is instant readership. And I am too lazy to build my own readership from scratch.
But thanks a lot for asking. It has been a wonderful thread. 🙂
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guest
December 23, 2014
I feel like we shouldn’t conflate objectification of women and misogyny. In Tamil cinema’s context, they’re two separate issues. I’d first like us to get to a place where women don’t get lectured/slapped around/put in their place/raped as vengeance and it gets shown as par for the course, as if that is the ideal we should strive towards.
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ThouShaltNot
December 23, 2014
>It would be naive, especially with Tamil Nadu’s history of film-politics relationship, to say that film is just art which we don’t have to engage with socially/politically, or that film is just a commercial enterprise which sells what society wants.
Well put! Yes, in Tamil society, movies and socio-political reality hold each other in a vice-like grip. Also, there is nothing wrong about wanting to tackle a problem from both ends. If movie stars are going to be held up as role models (yes, they’ve made peace with enjoying the perks even if they might not have asked for it in the first place) it is more than okay for the community/society they live in to question them when they sell products that are morally bereft (and, no, peddling regressive lines about women are not just Rajini uncle’s fault, but you’ve got to start somewhere). A man with a moral conscience would not consider only one half of the society he lives in as “ennai vazha vaikkum deivangal”, so that he could turn around and scoff at the concerns of the other half (even if it is not a monolithic one half that may be giving voice to such concerns).
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Priya Arun
December 24, 2014
While we are at the topic, I think all us need to stop pause for a minute to remember the auteur, K Balachander, whose rock-solid women characters are unmatched till date in the history of Tamil Cinema.
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Filistine
December 24, 2014
A pity! Would have been a good blog to follow 🙂
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Krishna
December 25, 2014
@Gradwolf
Excellent clip of Koundamani! Thanks!! 🙂
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brangan
December 25, 2014
KayKay: I kinda disagree with you about the “Kizhakku Vaasal” instance you quote:
the actor who plays Kushboo’s father starts beating up his wife… because of something his daughter did. Upon being asked by Kushboo why he’s beating her mother instead of her he replies ‘You’re my life. How can I beat you?’ .
This is a character shading, and these shadings are important to make characters unique and interesting. The point of the scene is that this is a father who loves his daughter so much that he vents his frustration on his wife. (There’s a similar scene in “Mann Vaasanai”.)
And we need all kinds of characters in films — ranging from the politically correct to incorrect. Otherwise there wouldn’t be any texture.
This is very different from what we are discussing here, where a star (Rajini or whoever else), over time, cultivates a persona that consistently devalues women. Had he done this in one film, we could say, “Oh, this is the CHARACTER he is playing.” But over time, it becomes part of the persona, and that’s what’s troubling to some.
And it becomes worse if this persona is used to dispense messages about “how women should behave” etc. Again, had it been a single film, we’d say, “Oh, this is the CHARACTER who believes in these things.” But over time, this transcends the character and becomes problematic.
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avan
December 26, 2014
Rahini thanks for initiating this topic and fellow commenters for providing constructive feedbacks.
Several years ago, I watched a speech by Rajini in an event where he said “friends are better than one’s wife”. I was shocked and couldn’t fathom how could a respectable famous personality say that in a public domain. The amount of cheers he got for that statement was equally shocking.
I then commented on this exact topic quoting his speech and his movies on another popular blog. In turn, I was ridiculed by the blogger and his regular commenters saying that ” Rajini isn’t saying something which is not true”.
It’s definitely refreshing to see a balanced perspective of the commenters here than how it was many years ago. Please note that I’m not bashing Rajini and he might not been intentional. However, considering the strength of his message delivery to the audiences, he surely needs to think before he talks or prepare a peer reviewed speech 🙂
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KayKay
December 26, 2014
B, good point and I’ll concede the fact I was conflating the GENERAL misogyny perceived in Tamil movies to the SPECIFIC issue of a superstar who, as you say has cultivated a screen persona that generally demeans women even as his on-screen and off-screen character is lauded as an “example” of how stars should conduct themselves.
Now with regards to that scene in Kizhakku Vaasal”
I totally agree that a film is richer when populated by characters with layers and welcome scenes that delve a little deeper into their motivations and personalities as opposed to stock “Good/Bad” caricatures. God forbid we have a movie where everyone’s the living embodiment of goodness, holds hands while spooning rice into each others’ mouths before getting together for a Group Photo at the end (and that movie by the way is called Vanathai Pole, and enduring it was 3 hours of my life I’ll never get back),
My issue is in HOW that shading was done in the scene I mentioned in Kizhakku Vaasal. Was that the ONLY way to show this character loved his daughter? By going all Mike Tyson on his wife? There are a dozen more creative ways to show paternal love.
A good example is Kushi, where Vijayakumar berates his wife for serving him food before telling him their daughter is having a fever. He gets up from the dining table and goes straight to his daughter, his lunch forgotten. That’s paternal love, minus the wife battery.
My point about Kizhakku Vaasal is that the script nonchalantly glosses over the father characters’ casual violence towards women (in an earlier scene, he slaps Manorama for daring to matchmake her son with his daughter) and even potrays him as him as one of the good guys later. And this isn’t exactly some noir-ish material where you’re primed to expect a film full of flawed characters, the “hero” usually being the least “asshole-ish” among the lot. Every other character in the film is sketched in broad strokes, leading me to suspect (I may be wrong) that the writer truly believes this character to be one of the Good Guys and is perfectly RIGHT in hitting his wife, because, you know, that’s how IMPORTANT men in the village are expected to behave. This isn’t so much shading as it is a mindset, which is what I object to.
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Prasad
December 26, 2014
I read comment from somebody about Bollywood.
This is just my personal opinion that atleast once in a while we get movies in Hindi like vidhya balan in “kahani ” , kngana in “Queen” sonakshi in ” lootera”which are not great movies per But atleast portrays strong femal characters which doesn’t Portray vulgarity. I can’t remember seeing any of our Tamil heroines having roles close to these roles. All end up as one or other loosu Ponnu’s without knowing why they are present In the screen . This clearly indicates also only ” larger then like ” material sells in Tamil. Every hero wants to become superman. The reason not enough good directors . Hard to find people like vikramaditya not wane , dibakar banner new or hirani.
Another important is the lyrics of Tamil cinema .
Almost many songs we generally get to hear “kathal. Kammam. Man madan … Mogam. ”
How many Hindi songs have you heard with songs ” hawas ” Even some of the words listed above are not used in Hindi.
Again am not taking side but the vulgarity in Tamil movies and songs are way low!!!
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Madan
December 27, 2014
Prasad: Interestingly, somebody asked a question on quora where he basically complained about the ‘high glamour quotient’ in Bollywood films vis a vis Tamil and how could people watch such films with their family. I was quite flummoxed by the question but nevertheless reasoned that maybe attitudes are more tolerant/indifferent in Mumbai so nobody is going to give a damn what a woman wears and if they do have an opinion on that, they would rather keep it to themselves. I did point out to him the way lyrics in Tamil didn’t seem to spare even Devyani’s midriff.
Hindi is not above vulgar double meaning lyrics but it’s not a fad. And it’s not like all songs in Tamil have to have vulgar lyrics but the mass films still suffer from an 80s hangover. The hordes of women and men dressed alike to accompany the hero/heroine, double meaning lyrics…I wonder how the audience does not get tired, let alone disgusted, of seeing the same tropes over and over again. Evidently not.
And Hindi is not immune to it. Prabhudeva’s films remade in Hindi do very well there so there’s still a market for the so called old school masala film with all its cliches. But Bollywood is a deeper market and films shot for a different audience do have a chance to succeed there, which is not often the case in Kolly. Not everybody liked Queen. But enough did for the film to do exceedingly well at the BO. There is also less peer pressure in Mumbai to try to fit into the tastes of one’s friends group. I have often watched films alone and I know friends who have done likewise too. I have next to nothing in common with the tastes of my college friends group and that is not seen as a problem. I don’t know if that is necessarily the case in Kolly but I do remember a discussion on the role of peer pressure coming up in the Raja Rani thread and a college goer commenter saying he would not like to go all alone to watch OAK. Er, for starters, you don’t get branded Peter just for watching English films or listening to ‘English songs’ in Mumbai.
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Rahini David
December 28, 2014
KayKay: A man who treats his daughter better than he treats his wife is not exactly uncommon. That Kizhakku Vaasal guy did not come across like that good a guy anyway. But I do agree that a story teller’s attitude leaks into the story. It just shows that wife-beating is a non-issue in that milieu. Did you notice this at the time of original release itself or did you re-watch it more recently?
My own problem with such scenes is the lifestock-like attitude of the woman in question. Does she retort at all? I am guessing not. Contrast the scene with the one in Soodhu Kavvum were the woman, when her husband is about to hit her, shuts a door behind her and says “Thatta eduthu vaidee, naama saapidalaam”. It is not about whether her attitude is the right one or the wrong one in the long run and all that. It showed pluck. It gave her a personality which is usually denied to these amma characters. I really liked that.
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Prasad
December 29, 2014
Thanks Madan for sharing your thoughts. Agree with you. Also we’re discussing about many scenes in this blog about being vulgar and all.
I agree with most of them but my pick or the “breaking point” for me is one cringeworthy scene in “Kadal”. A scene where folks will cut one leg of a prostitute to fit her inside a coffin. I mean you can keep a poll of “cringeworthy scene” poll for a decade or so and this scene will definitely be in top 3 . That too this is coming from Maniratnam and over and above the icing on the cake is this movie is “U ” Certified.
Just imagine the parents who are watching the movie with kids.(Interestingly that movie was praised a lot in this blog including BR!!) After watching this movie have litreally stopped watching much tamil movies and I KNOW for sure am not missing something great!!!
And I think most of our actors/directors are all equal opportunity offender’s and everybody should take the blame. The biggest issue this, somehow this vulgar scenens /double meaning dialogues has become part of the ecosystem specially in Kollywood and I don’t think there is a easy solution to that.
I don’t see even movies like”Lootera” or “Kahani ” coming in near future .
And in lyrics , it is disappointing to see the same metaphors objectifying women over and over again infused with vulgarity. I can quote many examples. This clearly brings out the through process of the directors and also the actors what message they want to bring out.
I don’t know if some can appreciate. Just want to bring to notice some of the best lines( by Amitabh Bhattacharya) have heard recently . This is from “zinda hoon” from Lootera
“Hawaaon se jo maanga hissa mera
To badle main hawa ne saans di
Akelepan se chhedi jab guftagu
Mere dil ne aawaaz di
Mere haathon, hua jo qissa shuru
Usey poora toh karna hai mujhe
Qabr par mere sar utha ke khadi ho zindagi
Aise marna hai mujhe!”
Can anybody point something like this recently heard in Tamil? atleast I haven’t come across.
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Ravi
December 30, 2014
Did anyone catch the license plate of senior Rajni’s car? It read MCP xxx!
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KayKay
December 31, 2014
“Did you notice this at the time of original release itself or did you re-watch it more recently?”
Rahini, I noticed it immediately when I first watched and the image has somehow lingered with me.
I sometimes think if I watched enough Tamil movies, I’d probably get desensitized to all this macho boorishness. As my filmic diet largely consists of Hollywood fare, where, 9 times out of 10, if a character hits a woman, it’s usually the baddie (who then gets his comeuppance later), I tend to notice when supposedly “good guys” in Tamil movies get a “free pass” on going all “medieval” on women.
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Iswarya
January 1, 2015
@Ravi:
MCP?? Seriously? How much of the irony are the filmmakers conscious of? 😀
Well, as the cliché goes, the truth will out! 🙂
What a fun observation to start the new year with!
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Anyani mouse
January 2, 2015
Damilan/BR: I am not too convinced about the evolution. Kamal continues to include misogynistic pandering in his light comedies.
Avvai Shanmugi: A slap for Meena just because she crossed the line in a dialogue. His justification “ethanayo purushan pondatti adikarathillaya”..
Pammal K Sambandham: if a wife does not want to sleep with her husband, the best thing to do is for the husband to get drunk and go ahead anyway???
Panchathanthiram: Since the “get drunk and sleep with the estranged wife” worked so well the first time, let’s try it again, this time write that into the hero’s script.
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Iswarya
January 5, 2015
@Anyani mouse:
This thread is no longer the hotbed it was, but since the “Freedom of speech” post is fast becoming an incendiary spot, I think I’ll come back here to see how your comment can be addressed.
I don’t think Kamal projects, in all his movies, a glowingly positive or edifying picture of women even now. For instance, just see the annoying brats that his female leads are even in his more relatively-serious recent ventures like Manmadhan Ambu or Vishwaroopam. But then, as BR said, w.r.t the Kizhakku Vassal reference, individual movies can accommodate a variety of attitudes. That is in fact to be welcomed. It allows different stories to be told, without a constant eye on political correctness.
The debate is really about a consistent ‘image’ here. Even you will surely agree that Kamal no longer has a consistent on-screen persona that degrades women by default. I mean, not like his Vikram/Sakalakalavallavan days.
As for the three movies you cited, it’s interesting to see that all these films show the women involved to be invested with agency of their own and all the 3 occasions have these women shooting back, with due consequences for the men attempting such stuff. For instance, Meena files for divorce, Simran breaks off permanently with her husband and even Sneha ensures contraception and a potential divorce application after these attempts to ‘tame’ them. But what does Ramya Krishnan do on getting slapped, or Shreya on being shown the “wedding gifts” accumulated for her? They go weak-kneed and break into rapturous dream songs! I mean.. That’s not just bad taste, but so puerile and unintelligent!
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Iswarya
January 6, 2015
Incidentally, can anyone recall a divorced woman character in any Rajini movie? I’m not even thinking of the female lead-doormats earmarked for Rajini in his movies. I mean… Any character at all?
The closest to a deviant from the ideal, docile woman in his movies I can remember is the sister in Pandiyan, who’s an unwed mother. And then, going back further, there is Srividya in Maapillai, who is again not technically divorced. And of course, there is Ambika from Engeyo Ketta Kural, whose ‘unchastity’ is duly punished.
Taking up the unfair Kamal comparison again, he seems to be endlessly fascinated by divorce and women on the brink of ending their marriage, whereas divorce does not even exist in Rajinitopia. As Rahini pointed out, if romance is a cul-de-sac for women in Rajini movies, marriage seems the veritable tombstone.
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Anyani mouse
January 6, 2015
Iswarya: My post wasnt meant to be a Kamal/Rajni comparison. My point was that when these actors want to pander(which Rajni does always, and Kamal does in his light comedies) they are not above including a hearty dose of misogyny. The fact is that these star vehicles as they call it have all their co-stars cave in to the hero, the caving co-stars naturally include the female leads which to me is misogyny at a different level.
As to the individual arguments for the three movies I listed, one can make similar arguments for some of the movies in Rahini’s main post as well:in Veera, Rajni’s act was deemed shameful, in Mannan Rajni was slapped too. In Yejaman, the setting was in a patriarchal village, where even today regressive ideas such as “manliness” are of supreme importance.But again, these minute arguments beat the overall point which is about the consistent image.
Rajni is a shameless unabashed panderer, and claims as much. Kamal isnt supposed to be, at least not to the level that he is, and to me that makes it worse.
That you can pander whilst not being regressive, and yet all actors still choose to be so is pathetic.
PS: I think there was an older Rajni movie with Sridevi which dealt with serious post marital discord, maybe Naan Adimai Illai.
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Rahini David
January 7, 2015
1) Well regarding Kamal’s evolution, I feel he does not repeat stuff that often and so defining patterns in his movies is kind of difficult. Of course there are common denominators in Kamal movies like a scene were he gets to cry from the bottom of this heart or the one where he begins to laugh and ends up slowly crying, but storywise he tries to experiment so the number of kuthvizhakku vs neon-light stories will naturally be lower. He had his share. From the top of my mind,
a) jumping into a pool and removing Madhavi’s swimsuit,
b) the “I am greater as I can go topless” logic and
c) “I am now married to you and am not going to fuck you. So you are screwed now, dearest” thingie. (Sakalakala Vallavan, if I am not wrong)
2) A peculiar similarity in Dasavatharam, Mumbai Express, PK.Sambandam and Vishwaroopam seems to be that the heroine is not very likeable at all. We are very familiar with shrews waiting to be tamed, but in these cases they are conniving bitches who eventual learn to love the hero’s golden heart. This is new to Tamil cinema or atleast new to me. I do not classify these as misogyny but just particularly negative traits in the heroines.
3) Not showing divorcees at all is a very general Tamil Movie thing. Remember that they recently remade some Hindi movie and the heroine’s ex-husband suddenly became an ex-fiancee in the Tamil remake? BR had remarked about it in his review.
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Ashutosh
January 7, 2015
I know I am getting into this discussion very late but I just wanted to make a minor point that you cannot really indict Kamal strongly for misogyny (even if you can find some evidence in his films) because he doesn’t try to come off as an archetype or a role model. He might play characters that pander to the requirements of the box office. But, unlike Rajnikanth, he never plays his characters with a casual self-righteousness. The problem with Rajnikanth is that he comes off as completely convinced that whatever he is doing is right and worth imitating…or worse–cute and innocent. Kamal’s characters might be flawed, but Rajni in trying to always be more Rajni than Character in his films, draws attention to himself–whether for being very righteous and spiritual or for being misogynistic and conservative. If we were talking about Kamal, this discussion wouldn’t be titled “Misogyny in Kamal Hassan’s cinema”; it would be “Misogyny in characters played by Kamal Hassan”.
Somehow for me, “Misogyny in Rajnikanth’s cinema” sounds accusatory but “Misogyny in characters played by Kamal Hassan” sounds very academic.
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Iswarya
January 7, 2015
@Ashutosh:
Spot on, I say. I am disproportionately annoyed with Rajini simply because he is so smug in doing this whole thing. Otherwise, in relative terms, Rajini movies are no better and no worse than the average Tamil masala film that just wants to make a quick buck by pandering to the lowest-common-but-numerically-strong denominator of audience.
@All:
I think we’ve observed in the course of the thread that Rajini is only a convenient punch bag for all of us to vent against the Neanderthal attitude of Tamil filmmakers towards women in general. Only that Rajini grabs attention by being the most visible peddler of these attitudes.
As Rahini said, divorce seems such a strange idea tabooed in movies except for those explicitly dealing with divorce as THE subject. And such movies too feature either a headstrong woman who rues her divorce and is reunited with the husband in the end, or such long-suffering martyrs who take physical abuse, threats of acid attack, verbal assaults, financial deprivation and general nastiness from the husband and his family without a shred of self-respect, before they are pushed to consider divorce. Even these women in most cases don’t continue to battle alone in life, but take shelter in the hero’s care, grateful for his benevolence in ‘giving them a life.’ (The ugliness of this phrase in Tamil just beats anything.)
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Anyani mouse
January 7, 2015
Ashutosh: Actually, my indictment of Kamal was not for misogyny but more on the lines of “ideological treason”.
I agree that Rajni’s been playing Rajni for quite a while now. I would go on to wager that Rajni actually believes most of the regressive crap he peddles on screen………as do quite a few in his generation. I wouldnt put it past my own mom to reiterate to me some of the womanly behavior nuggets, the role of woman in family and the like. The accusation on Rajni is therefore of “being” regressive and transporting that attitude smugly to the screen as well. That being said, to restate a point made by someone else earlier, he does not write his own scripts.
Kamal, however, is admittedly progressive. Given that he mostly writes his own scripts, and is pretty much in charge of most aspects of the making of his movies, his peddling of regressive crap in his movies reminds me of rangan’s comment on Maniratnam after Roja, `How could he do this? He’s supposed to be one of us! ”
If you rephrase your title as “Misogyny in characters created by Kamal Hassan” thats more accusatory and less academic.
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Ashutosh
January 7, 2015
Anyani mouse: OK, I see your point. One minor point is, that like Ragini mentions above, it is bit difficult to strongly accuse Kamal. Because for example, he is an atheist but has still played devout characters (not sure if this is the best example, but Thenali comes to mind). Of course, in some films I find that the atheism is unnecessarily in your face (at least the climax dialogue in Dasavatharam was kind of inappropriate). But, it seems to me that he doesn’t really push his agenda much; and I think that is much better than being too opinionated a filmmaker.
All that said, sometime back I watched Singaravelan and was rather appalled at a lot of regressive stuff (and I had quite enjoyed the film some 10 years back when I first saw it without any qualms). I guess it fit the narrative of that film, but still.
What Rajni does appears sinister exploitation of the regressive sensibiliy of the majority of his audience. What Kamal does seems like a betrayal of those who look to him as one of our thinking actors and expect him to break the conventions, which he does with every other movie. He does seem a bit lax with his comedies, but in a film like Manmadhan Ambu which he wrote without Crazy Mohan, he does acquit himself quite well.
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Rahini David
January 8, 2015
Iswarya: To tell the truth, I find the “giving life” thing quite hilarious. It comes a close second to “vazhkaiyil vazhukki vizhundhaval”. I don’t know how men manage to never vazhuki vizhunthu at all. May be they have such a gud grip on life. 😉
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Ashutosh
January 9, 2015
@Rahini: Well, the idea is that if a man vazukki vizhunthufies he can always get up because he is, you know, a man. But a woman, she cannot really do that kind of a thing. Actually, I have problems with “good” and “sacrificing” men in many films because the patriarchal idea of treating women well is motivated by the fact that they are weak (pombalaiya poi adikkaraiye) or that they are like mothers (no example required)… or they’re pregnant, or they’ve attained puberty (vaiyasu ponna pottu adikkaraiye). One could argue that this is not such a big issue as long as they behave respectfully. But no, the above arguments are predicated on the woman being “good” (as in meek, dependent, and proud of their apparent limitations). So, a woman can be treated well if she is of some reproductive utility for man, or if she is a mother. So, most films try to find a reason to treat a woman well without thinking of it as something that is inalienable.
A caveat is that all the above chivalry applies only for physical hitting… not for giving them “good advice” or “putting them in their place” or “claiming them as your property because you love them so much”. Even in Sivaji, Rajni doesn’t really harass the heroine physically, but he does pretty creepy things like badgering her, buying clothes, groceries, children’s clothes etc… this should obviously count as psychological abuse. But, then they did dance these misgivings away in Vaaji Vaaji. So, all was good again.
OK, the above degenerated into a rant quickly.
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Rahini David
January 9, 2015
Ashutosh:
1) The topic you have raised was discussed quite clearly in this thread. You might find it quite interesting. It maybe more about Chivalry rather than physical violence, but the concept seems the same.
http://www.bhagwad.com/blog/2013/personal/why-dont-women-find-chivalry-insulting.html/
2) Well yes, there is this belief that for women there is one chance and that is it. From Tamil Movies we know that it applies to the number of sex partners a woman has in her life time. Killing off rape victims and virgin widows and many other variations of this theme exists. There are many movies in which she specifically mentions that she “is not worthy of marriage” or some such crap. Here is another thread were this was extensively discussed.
3) This extends to how many times it possible for a woman to fall in love. In Tamil is called the “Oru kodiyil oru murai thaan malarrum malar allava” concept. This is very stupid as in that movie(Nenjil Oor Aalayam), the heroine was already in love with the Doctor dude, which means she did not love her husband at all and was merely devoted to him which isn’t the same thing. I already mentioned this in the Guru Sishyan example and Sitara’s character in Padayappa.
This is not exactly culture-specific as shown in the following wonderful post.
http://seemagoswami.blogspot.fr/2012/08/have-you-come-long-way-baby-jennifer.html
4) It is funny that the above trope applies to sexual attraction and fantasies as much as real sex/love. Again it is not even culture specific. It applies to Mills and Boon and Harlequin romances too, in a big way.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SingleTargetSexuality
5) I have done way too much research on this topic, haven’t I? 😀
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Ashutosh
January 9, 2015
@Rahini: wow… thanks for the seriously awesome research. I had never appreciated how pervasive this stuff was…
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Iswarya
January 10, 2015
There was also the “Ninaithathu Yaaro” thread that went along the same lines as Malini 22. IIRC, it had a reference to sexual jealousy among primates.
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brangan
January 10, 2015
Iswarya: Thanks to your comment, I revisited that thread and… OMG, the comments! What a surreal discussion hinging on, all things, a Vikraman movie 🙂
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brangan
March 12, 2015
Some good ROFL material here in this interview with the writers Suba. For instance:
“Women by nature are emotional and they don’t care about the logic much. If they think someone deserves love, they shower it on the person. So, basically it is easier to spin a story around a female character. ”
http://behindwoods.com/tamil-story-writer/subha/exclusive-interview-with-writer-subha.html
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Ashutosh
March 12, 2015
Quick question: if someone showers love on someone else who deserves the love, then isn’t that first someone being a logical creature, because you know they’re evaluating whether the second someone deserves the love?
And this was an answer to the question how they write such strong female characters. But then, behindwoods.com’s translation is typically horrific. I’ve compared the Tamil interviews and English transcripts (when they post them both), and it always seemed to me like the translator had spent much funds on a box set of Norman Lewis books and felt the need to justify that expense in every article he wrote. So, you often find articles that say stuff like ‘Mysskin is known for his profound and facile outlook on life’ or ‘Vijay’s films are a conflagration for his fans.’
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brangan
March 12, 2015
Ashutosh: ‘Vijay’s films are a conflagration for his fans.’
ROFL. Thanks for this mood-lift on a slightly depressing evening.
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Sid (@Tweet2Sid)
March 13, 2015
Here’s a tweet from Chinmayi to which writer Suresh (SuBha) has responded explaining what they had originally meant: http://twitter.com/Chinmayi/status/575220200569614336
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Dr. Aiswarya Rao
March 15, 2015
Wonderful post and an equally enriching discussion.
One female character remains a personal favourite for me from all Tamil Films that I have seen. The submissive quietly suffering wife Chandra of the lead Mohan (MR Radha) in Ratha Kanneer (1954). Chandra is still a virgin, because Mohan is neither attracted to her nor has the time for her, as he is busy serenading his girlfriend. After months of neglect and near desertion by the husband, when the film is steering towards its end, Chandra considers having an affair (physical relationship) with Mohan’s best friend Balu. She even proposes this to him. Her reasons and justifications are so very convincing. They have a very open conversation about it. Then they decide against it, because Balu, does not have the guts, and basically the film chickens out and sticks to convention. But at that point in the film, I sat wishing that this ‘immoral’ relationship would actually take off! Chandra clearly had my approval. Here was an almost illiterate girl from the village, admonished for having no ‘naagarigam’ and sophistication by the husband. But she is no naïve, docile housewife. She recognises her sexuality and does not hesitate to express it!
Though there were a lot of black and white characters in the film, Chandra was clearly grey. Though much of the film did pander to commonly held morality of those times, Chandra was a bold character for all times.
It is indeed sad to see that films have regressed since then.
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Venkatesh
November 22, 2015
A bit late but my two cents. There existed a popular myth ‘India loses whenever Tendulkar scores a century’. I know, this isn’t a great analogy, but the original post, with a cherry-picked list, looks one-sided. Roughly speaking, half of the ones mentioned here are remakes either from Hindi or Telugu – what’s the point in blaming Rajini or even the director? That said, I think he could’ve insisted for a change in the scripts of Yejaman and Veera (this one was a straight remake from Telugu). You could’ve included Adhisaya Piravi, yet another remake. Kodi Parakkudhu, as a whole, was such a stupid film. This is probably one of the reasons why I don’t consider BR as being in the same league as KB/Mahendran/Balu Mahendra.
I don’t know if this is an ordered list, but Kai Kodukkum Kai doesn’t deserve a place at all. The film was a remake of the third part of the Kannada portmanteau Katha Sangama. Ironically, Rajini played the rapist villain in KS. Recalling from an interview: The fact is that, Vijayakumar, the film’s co-producer, wanted Mahendran to change the climax which the original film had. You know why? Because Rajini’s fans will not accept their Super Star/Style Mannan’s pair being raped. So the producers apparently wanted to change the climax, like the usual masala films – where the hero makes a last-minute entry by breaking the door/glasses of the windows and kills the villain, thus saving the heroine’s chastity (much like what Chappani does in 16 Vayathiniley). However, Mahendran was reluctant for a change. When the issue went to Rajini, he seemed to have said ‘I leave it to Mahendran saar’, and the climax was shot according to the director’s wish. Though it turned out to be a ‘neither Rajini nor Mahendran film’, it was a realistic film.
In Tamil, I don’t think even KB handled the on-screen depiction of women very well. But Mahendran excelled in that! There is a relatively unknown film called ‘Pootaadha Poottukkal’ by him which was about adultery and forgiveness. May be he was trying to make the film on the lines of Charulata. I have seen the film only in bits and parts, but the outline was something like ‘Odi poi thirumba vandha manaiviyai etru kollum kanavan’. The film was a box-office bomb and some critics wrote it off as a ‘Thappana padam’. Who should we blame for that? Also, since this is more specific about Rajini films, why wasn’t a film like Netrikann not discussed? There is a scene involving Rajini and Sarath Babu where the former says ‘Inga paaru paa, na pennasai pudichavan dhan, but adhukaga enna maariyae oru alla en ponnuku kalyanam panni vaika mudiyadhu’. Shall we conclude it as ‘prejudice against men’?
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Rahini David
November 24, 2015
Venkatesh: Thanks for your comment. Many of your points have already been raised. However, I understand that it is a pretty long thread. So here are my reply.
1) The list is meant to be one-sided. This is not an essay comparing and contrasting anti-women and pro-women in Tamil Cinema. No balance is aimed at. It is a essay meant to pin point the various points of misogyny that exists in Tamil Cinema and an attempt (as a thought exercise) to use only Rajinikanth movies to illustrate. Using MGR may have made it look outdated.
2) This is not meant to “prove” that Rajinikanth movies reek with misogyny, but that “Tamil Cinema” reeks of misogyny and very popular movies starring a very popular actor showcase these attitude. It has become a part of the way we think. By extension, my main point is that Tamil Culture as we see it now reeks of misogyny and Cinema reflects it. Misogyny is so taken for granted.
3) I can only talk of movies I am familiar with. I have watched many Rajini movies when compared to Vijay or Ajith or Surya.
4) The main point as I see is this. Most of us saw these movies and did not think anything amiss in the way Sitara of Padayappa was portrayed as we were too caught up with the Rajini-Ramya-Soundarya Triangle. But Sitara and her feelings for Nasser jared me. I have deliberately concentrated on the women whose characters have not been thought out properly by the makers.
5) I don’t see why remade movies should not be included. It would be clear if Rajini is the writer. He is not. He is the Common Denominator. He is the actor. It does not matter whether it is remade or is original.
6) The film was a box-office bomb and some critics wrote it off as a ‘Thappana padam’. Who should we blame for that?.
I can’t comment on a movie that I did not watch. My stance on the basic premise is given here. We will discuss it after you have read it.
7) “why wasn’t a film like Netrikann not discussed?”. I don’t think it is mandatory to discuss any movie. I saw Netrikann more as a “Libertine vs. Chaste” rather than “Men vs. Women”. There is misogyny of course. But I did not think it was a particularly good movie to illustrate misogny.
8) There is a scene involving Rajini and Sarath Babu where the former says ‘Inga paaru paa, na pennasai pudichavan dhan, but adhukaga enna maariyae oru alla en ponnuku kalyanam panni vaika mudiyadhu’. Shall we conclude it as ‘prejudice against men’?.
Again it is the attitude of “Libertine vs. Chaste” at play here. People who play the field and hurt the feelings of other want their children to not get hurt at all. There is double standard there. Agreed. But how is this prejudice against men? Please note, I am not saying that prejudice against men does not exist in Tamil Culture or Tamil Cinema. I am saying I don’t see any in that particular quote. So elaborate.
Cheers. 😀
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Venkatesh
November 24, 2015
Rahini David: Apologies for the clumsy response – some points were not aimed at you. But you make a good argument! Given the length of this discussion, I need to glance this one from top to bottom. Additionally, I may have to go through the Lingaa thread as well. Once I’m done with both, I’ll revisit this post (and hopefully elaborate my POV). For now, I need to reboot my energy levels a bit. 🙂
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Venkatesh
November 26, 2015
I seriously don’t know what’s your definition of ‘average masala film’. Just because Vijayakanth has acted in more than 100 films as a cop, I wouldn’t sample out his films when we talk about ‘Best/Worst cop films made in Tamil’. But since this is only about the ‘Misogny in Rajinikanth’s cinema’, arguments over ‘Why Rajini?’ doesn’t make any sense. Having said that, I seriously doubt if you had seen all these films. Anyways, let’s discuss the list:
Kai Kodukkum Kai – Yes, it was a mainstream film with commercial elements, but I wouldn’t call this a ‘masala film’. More to the point, Rajini forgives the rapist, not his wife. Unless I’m missing something other than this, you’re totally wrong.
Thambiku Entha Ooru – Agreed, but this trend was prevalent in most of the Tamil films then.
Annamalai – ‘You saw me naked. You will have to marry me’. I’m not supporting this argument, but this isn’t the same thing as ‘You raped me, so you have to marry me.’ Besides, Rajini’s character was not shown as someone who has feelings for Khusbhoo. So this scene could be an excuse for them to get married. Again, this wasn’t new to Tamil cinema.
Yejaman – Nothing to say
Valli – Actually, ‘Sex (consensual or not) with false promise to marry where the promise is made solely to deceive and take advantage of the woman can be considered rape.’ The premarital sex in the film was exactly about it. Agree, it was a badly executed film, but what’s the misogyny here?
Veera – The scene was picturised as a dream in the film, but never happens in reality (of course, in the narrative). But what makes me surprised is that you seem to miss the macro picture here. In the climax, both Meena and Roja agree to share Rajini. Ideally, someone who is so concerned about women should be worried at this thing. 🙂
The reason why I pointed out remade films (Maaveeran and Mannan) is that you can never blame the actors. Yes, in some cases they might have a say (like the Manorama thing in Arunachalam), but it’s plainly impossible in a film like Guru Sishyan. Making changes in the character and in the script are not one and the same – you may have to come up with a Mouna Raagam (as opposed to Nenjathai Killathey). Even if Kamal were to do Guru Sishyan, he couldn’t have done anything better!
Yes, I got the premise wrong, but the list isn’t a great one either.
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Rahini David
January 20, 2016
Venkatesh: Sorry for the late reply. Actually, I did not know you had replied here. I just came back here to check something today.
I am not going to type out replies to each point as the thread is getting a bit out of control and I am not able to undertand a a few points. However, as you seem to have become a regular reader/commenter, we may discuss the points indivudually one of these days.
Cheers. 😀
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
January 22, 2016
Rahini: Sure! As for Kai Kodukkum Kai, these links might be helpful:
http://cinema.maalaimalar.com/2012/11/29234855/actor-rajini–act-in-kai-koduk.html
http://cinema.maalaimalar.com/2013/06/10213203/maalaimalarcom-cinema-history.html
My humble request is that never ever take WP seriously. 🙂
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chenab35
February 8, 2016
To the guys who are complaining about ‘misogyny’ et all, did you watch films like Thanga meengal, Aadhalal Kathal Seiveer or the slightly disappointing (compared to the first two) Valakku en 18/9 and appreciate? No!! Such a bunch of hypocrites we are.
And this reviewer too “dissed” Thanga meengal as being preachy!! Note one scene between the husband and wife in the night where the wife says that ” Chella ma , our child does not study at all, she is ignorant like me, she will only end up like me in life ( with lot of concern and frustration )…but husband says ” you do not teach her well I have faith in her”.
And what’s with Kai koddukum Kai. I see this as a progressive approach by the lead character. So what he should do? Should he whip the blind women?
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
February 8, 2016
chenab35: Finally, someone sides with me. 🙂 I don’t understand how Annamalai and Valli can be categorised as films that sprout misogyny. I see a lot of people bash Mannan here. In their eyes, the characters of Khushbhoo and Pandari Bai are not women – only Vijayashanti’s seems to bother them. These are people that call Mann Vaasanai and Muthal Mariyathai (that had a fair-share of misogyny and caste-glorification) as honest works.
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Rahini David
February 8, 2016
chenab35: So what he should do? Should he whip the blind women?
You and I seem to be on completely different pages and so I am not very sure what to tell you here. The short answers is no, he should not whip the blind woman.
Honest Raj: Annamalai and Valli are not films that sprout misogyny. Annamalai has a romantic track that scene from a certain angle has a certain yuck-factor to it. It is one of my fave Rajinikanth movies. But that does not mean that I should not mention that I felt a certain yuck there. Valli is not a misogynist movie at all. It is a very pro-woman movie. Rajini had the scenes in Panakaran and few others where he makes men marry women they previously raped as a sort of justice. He probably had this in his mind and wrote Valli against this marrying the rapist concept. I can see where he is going there. However, the ‘Sex (consensual or not) with false promise to marry where the promise is made solely to deceive and take advantage of the woman can be considered rape.’ angle isn’t something I am able to accept. Again I am mentioning that I felt a certain dissonance there. I am not against Valli in its entirety either. The following article by Seema Goswami makes the angle quite clear and is more eloquent. Being deceived and being raped are quite different, IMO.
You have made many interesting points in that comment. In fact, some points are stuff I already wondered why nobody asked me at all. However, if I reply to all of them in one go, I will breach all my SLA and be out of a job. 😀 So we will take them one at a time.
http://seemagoswami.blogspot.fr/2014/09/sex-lies-and-threat-of-rape.html
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
February 8, 2016
Rahini: I’m quite confused. The title of the post reads ‘The misogyny in Rajinikanth’s cinema’, and then you have list of films that are being faithful to it. If Annamalai and Valli aren’t misogynist films, why are they mentioned alongside Maaveeran, Veera, Kodi Parakkuthu (guru BR’s fave), et al?
The quote about consensual sex is not an opinion, but according to the law!
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Rahini David
February 8, 2016
Honest Raj: The title is “Misogyny in Rajinikanths cinema” not “Misogynistic Tamil Movies starring Rajinikanth”.
The title was provided by BR, it was originally just a comment like any other. But of course, I think it is a pretty apt title. I would have asked him to modify it if I had disagreed.
Regarding that quote being the law. Well, I still can’t accept it. The rape that I consider a crime is about forced sex. When a No is said or implied by body language and the agressive party disregards it. It is unfair if a man and a woman have consentual sex and the man is expected to never change his mind again. Like EVER. What sort of a law is that?
It puts men at a distinct disadvantage and allows women to almost use sex as a weapon. I am not a huge fan of that either.
BTW, why should a person not disagree with the law? It was made by humans, right? 🙂
BR: I can’t thank you enough for making this comment a post. It was written on a whim, and naturally it shows. But the platform it has provided to voice thoughts that have always been close to my heart is something wonderful. I believe you mentioned in a comment to Amit Joki that discussions to open out this blog in a way that will allow for more reader stuff is on. I do hope that many others profit by whatever change you are planning.
Once again, Thanks a million.
😀
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
February 8, 2016
//The title is “Misogyny in Rajinikanths cinema” not “Misogynistic Tamil Movies starring Rajinikanth”.//
I understand that, and I’m not accusing you. But, you think Kai Kodukkum Kai, Valli and Annamalai deserve a place in this list?
As for the quote, I do not have an opinion on it. I consider myself too young to have a say on such matters!
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Rahini David
February 12, 2016
I consider your questions and objections very valid. So it does not matter if you are accusing me. Anyway, you are accusing my thoughts and my points and very sensible about not making this too personal. You freaked me out a bit by saying you are “too young” but you later said (in another thread) that you are 26. We will surely continue to talk about why some of the milder examples need to be there and discussed.
It is a pleasure interacting with you. 🙂
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brangan
July 25, 2016
Rahini, this post of yours has been linked to 🙂
http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/will-anyone-call-out-misogyny-indian-films-daniel-craig-did-james-bond-35459
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MANK
July 25, 2016
My god, so thanks to Rahini, this is how the future generations will remember Rajinikanth 🙂
Brangan, well it was about time that rest of the world got a taste of our Resident SJW (not used pejoratively) 😀
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Iswarya
July 25, 2016
Actually I too happened to notice the link only this morning. And I blithely did some further linking in my article published in YouthKiAwaaz today:
http://goo.gl/fuvoL7
Rahini, be ready to handle the f(l)ame!
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Rahini David
July 26, 2016
Iswarya, I just read through the article. It is wonderfully written. Please do add a comment in the “Chicken, Egg” thread and the “Broad Reflection #4” thread too.
We have developed so much apathy that a petition does not get shared as much as a joke. The real issue is that people don’t see it as a crime. They DO see it as romantic, they DO do a certain extent of victim blaming.
This will remain an instance of dropping a feather in the grand canyon and waiting for an echo. But then again, a seed has been planted. It will germinate and it will eventually grow. We will live to see it. Take heart.
But also, don’t hold your breath for it. One day, it will surprise us.
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blurb
July 26, 2016
Oh, dear sweet snark 🙂 I remember reading the blurb of Kai Kodukkum Kai and just peeling into splits of laughter!
Congrats, Rahini.
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Iswarya
July 26, 2016
Thanks, Rahini. 🙂 Doing it right away! And, there’s a possibility opening up now for taking the help of YouthKiAwaaz in launching a proper campaign and all. Just happened to get in touch with their top man who has assured help. (Two weeks of sleepless Twitter trawling begins to pay off!)
BR: If you don’t mind, can you keep just one thread open on the blog for followup action and updates on this petition? The credit for enabling this belongs rightfully to your platform, after all! I’m asking this favour because the other two threads are filled with debates already and the comments section in both are close to the 200 mark, making it unwieldy to post anything more there.
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brangan
July 26, 2016
Iswarya: Sure, just give me the text and I will make a new post of it.
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Arjun
August 5, 2016
I just read this whole discussion yesterday and I must say this is wonderful. All of you guys are awesome for having taken part in such a discussion and for raising such points. And special thanks to BR Sir for letting such discussion happen on a movie blog. I agree that initiatives have to be taken to point out misogyny in movies. This is not the case in the west though I think. There have been criticisms abt the misogyny in James bond movies for instance. Right now there is a lot of debate happening in Kerala abt the misogyny in the latest mammootty movie called ‘Kasaba’ so cyber mallus could get involved in such a discussion. A major problem is that otherwise educated, thinking people don’t bother to criticise misogyny in movies saying ‘it’s just a movie’. And I believe such initiatives will also help film makers realise that people are no longer gonna sit tight and take whatever they shove in our faces in the name of entertainment. For eg-/ Kasaba in Kerala and also how transgenders where portrayed in ‘I’ – I feel that now filmmakers are more careful at least for the sake of the commercial prospecta of their movie to not offend transexuals. By the way Kasaba offended transexuals too!!
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tonks
August 6, 2016
http://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/movie-review/kasaba-movie-review-mammootty-malayalam-film-nithin-renji-panicker-2900784/
It’s heartening how many people in the comments section have called out on the vulgarity and misogyny of Kasaba in the above link. I was trying to think of Malayalam movies that depict stalking, there are not many in recent times. In Premam he stops the following as soon as he realises she doesn’t love him, he’s even exploited by her a little after that so she can meet up with her lover without her father knowing.
Om Shanthi Oshana is a delightful movie from the heroine’s point of view, the female gaze, so to speak and it does show a bit of stalking. Nasriya’s character is a school girl who crushes on Nivin’s much older character, and for a time follows and stalks him, till he tells her to concentrate on her studies and leave behind all this school girl nonsense. She goes on to complete her education , comes back to her home town and sets about gaining a place in his heart, through the things that he really cares about : his mom’s dreams about writing and publishing a book and general social service (he is a communist). So there is stalking yes, but gender reversed and there is no glorification.
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Iswarya
August 6, 2016
MANK: Your prophesy is about to come true! This post has taken on a life of its own and is now getting regularly cited in pieces that target Rajini’s contribution to the glory of womanhood! 😉
Rahini: You rock, my lady! See this: http://theladiesfinger.com/hard-rajinikanth-fan-tamil-nadu/
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Ananya
January 12, 2017
You forgot the film ‘Panakaran’ where when Rajini finds that his sister was raped, he gets her married to that guy immediately.
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Rahini David
January 12, 2017
Ananya: yes, that was missed out. I thought there were enough rape trope examples. But this “marry the rapist” thingie was pretty standard trope back then and panakaran was a very good example of that trope. It is surely distinct from other examples.
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