Spoilers ahead…
Meghna Gulzar owns the directorial credit in Talvar, but this is really Vishal Bhardwaj’s baby. He’s the writer – the film is based on the Aarushi Talwar murder case that transfixed the nation even as it left some of us wondering whether a similar tragedy in areas of the country not named Mumbai or Delhi would have commanded so much airtime and attention. Bhardwaj writes the hell out the film, which begins with a perfunctory rendition of the national anthem. It’s lip service. And that’s what the investigation that follows is about – lip service to the idea of truth, justice, fairness, all that jazz that’s supposed to separate us from our four-legged friends. In a way, Talvar is like Court, which showed us how far-removed the practice of law is from the courtroom dramatics we thrill to on screen. Talvar isn’t a movie-style procedural – no nails are going to be bitten. It’s how these things happen in life. Cops aren’t ever-vigilant truth defenders but men who are easily distracted by incessant phone calls, men who can’t even remember the name of the deceased – and it’s a press conference. We’re not sure whether to laugh or cry.
The surface details are slightly different (note the names, for instance; just close enough to the real names), but the story is pretty much the same. Fourteen-year old Shruti is found murdered. The parents – Ramesh (Neeraj Kabi) and Nutan (Konkona Sen Sharma, who looks like a 14-year-old herself) – blame their missing servant Khempal. Then he’s found with his throat slit. What happened that night? Is it really “an open-and-shut case,” as a cop calls it? Bhardwaj doesn’t attempt an answer (though he hints that the parents are innocent). He’s more interested in viewing these questions through a Rashomon-type prism – a key scene is reenacted from various points of view. But this isn’t just a stylistic device. It’s deeply integral to the core of the film – for everything is about points of view. A female guest on a panel discussion on TV is convinced Nutan did it, otherwise how could a mother be so emotionless after her little girl has been taken away in a body bag? (And the body bag is pink – such a heartbreakingly little-girl colour.) This woman is judging another woman based on her point of view of how someone should behave in such a situation. It’s terrifying when these (casual) points of view add up, especially when they are coloured by class issues. Inspector Dhaniram (Gajraj Rao, pitch-perfectly embodying the middle class’s worst nightmares about going to the cops) and his cohorts, similarly, judge Shruti’s parents from their points of view. These upper-class people. Sheesh, they’re wife-swappers. Sheesh, they use bad language. Sheesh, their degenerate children have these things called “sleepovers.” Sheesh, they play golf. And then, we’re shown a scene from Nutan’s point of view. She’s still in the car, clutching the urn of ashes. Ramesh asks her to come in, but she says the pandit-ji has told her not to bring the ashes into the house. “I’m not leaving her alone,” she says. The audience, finally, is left with a point of view. Nutan still speaks of Shruti as a ‘her’. Surely this isn’t a murdering mother.
Bhardwaj writes the hell out the film. Have I said this earlier? I’ll say it again. Talvar is a smashing return to form for him, especially from the, um, point of view of those of us who preferred his Maqbool/Blue Umbrella/Omkara days. He’s taken a bit of a detour since then, he’s become something of a mannered formalist with a taste for the absurd. Some of these latter-day traits are very much visible, beginning with this film’s title – that wordplay on the real-life family’s name, which now refers to the sword in Lady Justice’s hands. (Continuing the film’s we-see-what-we-want-to-see theme, how many of you knew there was more to this Lady than just the scales and the blindfold?) There’s some more wordplay (not much, thankfully) in that contrived AFSPA/chutzpah-style – something about green and jealousy, something about Christ and the missionary position. But for the first time, Bhardwaj’s absurdist predilection doesn’t come off as strained, possibly because the events depicted here couldn’t get more absurd. We’re talking about a cop launching into a loud folk song so that his colleagues in the adjacent room can inspect the noise levels of the air-conditioner. We’re talking about a juicy hand print – in blood, no less – that remains unknown to forensic examiners and gets washed away by an absurdly unseasonal shower. The pink buffaloes in Matru Ki Bijlee Ka Mandola have nothing on this.
But these bits remain bits, and through most of the film, we see the old Bhardwaj, the unshowy, solid, naturalistic craftsman. Take the scene where we learn about ACP Vedant’s (Sohum Shah, who looks like Farhan Akhtar’s long-lost sibling) betrayal. Till then, we are given the idea that Vedant and Ashwin ( Irrfan Khan), the Central Department of Investigation (CDI) officer, are some sort of Jai-Veeru, brothers in arms bent on cracking the case. Then we get a tiny throwaway of a scene where the topic of Vedant’s promotion comes up. And then, the betrayal – and this is when you know how good Bhardwaj is. A lesser writer would have tipped us off in the scene where the promotion is discussed, but we simply see that scene as one of those little asides meant to imbue a character with a few extra shades. Soon after, we learn about the betrayal as Ashwin learns about it. It’s as much a shock to us as it is to him. It’s redundant to say Shah plays this scene beautifully because the entire cast is outstanding – it’s not just about great actors but great faces as well, faces with wear and tear and plucked from life. The maidservant, for instance. Or even the CDI chief Swamy (Prakash Belawadi), who gets the interval scene where he tells his protégé Ashwin that Lady Justice’s sword has become rusty, and it’s time to do something about it. If you’d told me about this scene, I’d have winced – it sounds preachy and dialogue-y and awful. But it’s marvelous on many levels. It’s a call to action snuck into a wistful sigh.
To call Talvar Meghna Gulzar’s best film isn’t saying much. She has just two features to her credit, and both of them were better showcases of her observational powers and dialogue-writing capabilities than direction. I don’t remember too much of Filhaal except a maddening colour scheme (mauve/lavender) and a lovely moment where the husband finds out they’re going to have a baby. “We’re pregnant,” he says. Note the we. That’s the sensitivity Meghna imparted to her second film as well, Just Married, another story about a couple with problems. There’s a couple with problems in Talvar too – and these are the film’s weakest portions. As Ashwin, Irrfan gives a fantastic movie-star performance. In the midst of all these drawn-from-life people, he’s a hero. He’s introduced as the man who cracked the Telgi scam. You half expect someone to extend an autograph book and request a selfie. And like a star, he makes his own rules. He plays games on the phone when he should be listening. He looks at gruesome photographs of murder while gulping down dinner. He cajoles a colleague to let him eavesdrop on an interrogation session. He slaps a cop around (the latter, unsurprisingly is from a lower class). He’s a… stud, and the way he swaggers through the film, like one of those lone-wolf movie cops, he didn’t need to be saddled with a subplot about his separation from his wife (though Bhardwaj takes care to comment on this trial as well, where, according to this judge’s point of view, a couple needs a real reason to separate; they can’t be all upper-class and do whatever they want, whenever they want). At one point, the wife (Tabu) hands him a box with his things, his samaan – a card he once gave her, their wedding album. And he walks out humming Mera kuchh samaan. A Gulzar hat tip? Maybe their relationship was about intangibles, like in the song? Okay. But it gets worse when she calls him later while watching Ijaazat, and guess what song is playing in the background. This cutesy business is tonally off, given that Meghna keeps an emotional distance from the proceedings, the way the new CDI chief urges his men to. Even Vedant’s mention of a fiancée remains just that. A mention.
This emotional distance makes some of the early portions a little dry – we keep thinking ‘competent’ rather than ‘inspired.’ When we see Zodiac (where David Fincher slowed time down to reflect the sluggish pace of the investigation) or Not A Love Story (where Ram Gopal Varma rubbed our face in the passion in that crime of passion), to take two other films based on real-life crime, we sense a strong directorial presence. True, Talvar is Meghna’s best film, but we keep wondering if that isn’t more due to the great writing (and great acting). And it doesn’t help that a lot of the story (along with the way these investigations generally take place) is familiar to us. But slowly, as things get increasingly absurd, the film really takes off. The last half-hour is astonishingly good. It’s just talk, but it pulls together everything we’ve seen so far, all the points of view, in a startlingly hilarious fashion. We’re not sure whether to laugh or cry.
KEY:
- the Aarushi Talwar murder case = see here
- Court = see here
- Rashomon-type prism = see here
- Maqbool = see here
- Blue Umbrella = see here
- Omkara = see here
- AFSPA/chutzpah-style = see here
- Lady Justice = see here
- Matru Ki Bijlee Ka Mandola = see here
- Filhaal = see here
- Just Married = see here
- Mera kuchh samaan = see here
- Zodiac = see here
- Not A Love Story = see here
Copyright ©2015 Baradwaj Rangan. This article may not be reproduced in its entirety without permission. A link to this URL, instead, would be appreciated.
Shankz
October 4, 2015
Brilliant piece…. Well written
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Utkal
October 4, 2015
My impressions:
Just back from Talvar. Haven’t been hit so hard by a movie for ages. Take a bow Vishal Bharadwaj and Meghna Gulzar. The film makes you feel, and it makes you think. More than who is innocent or who is not, it opens our eyes to the process of criminal investigation. It brought to my mind the valedictory address at my son’s graduation at NLSUI, where the speaker said: The courts are not designed to punish the guilty. They are designed to punish those who can be proven guilty. So often we forget that. The film shows how investigations are conducted and how with the transfer of the investigating officer at CBI the whole course of the investigation can change. A post-mortem report can change 5 times, a typing errr can happen ten times in a blood report, negating crucial evidence, witnesses retract their testimony, who can be an approver and who can’t is decided by the whim of an investigating head. The film show2s how all those who have been convicted may are not necessarily the culprits and all those outside the jails are not necessarily innocent. Bharadwaj who has been perfecting his black comedy right from Maqbool, gaining some serious heft in this department through films like Kaminey, Saat Khoomn Maaf, Matru Ki Mandola and Haider hit a purple patch here in the final ssequence here where rival investigating team sof CBI present their stand point. It is a masterclass in writing. The great writing is matched by equaly great performances from the ensemble cast. Irrfan of course is tops. But Neeraj Kavi, Konkona, the guy who plays the second investigating officer and the servant and his friends are all good. And I must make a mention of our Bengaluru Theatre Man, Prakash Belwadi who does an enjoyable turn as the retiring director of CBI, especially in his awkward eagerness to complete the shayari started by the new CBI head. And yes, I loved the song Zinda sung by Rekha Bharadwaj during the end credits. Most of all it is heartening to note that the Gulzar name is going to shine in Bollywood filmmaking in the years go come with Meghna carrying the baton from papa Gulzar with total confidence and control.
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A
October 4, 2015
“….Nutan still speaks of Shruti as a her. Surely this isn’t a murdering mother.”
Not necessarily, Rangan. Not necessarily at all. You are making the same judgment as that lady newscaster did in presuming that A’s mother was the killer because she did not show emotion. You are standing on the other side of the fence.
We will never know, ‘as a fact’, what happened that night and who actually murdered the girl in the Aarushi murder case. Never. Period. The case was botched up from the word go and every party involved [including her parents] have a bloody hand in this huge mess. I am very surprised and it makes me quite disturbed that for a case that had no evidences, no crime scene data to begin with, a writer like Vishal B takes it up and creates a case that blatantly leans towards a specific result. I’ll concede that he his completely free do do so. But there is not a single person who has written about this movie till date, even wondered, how can judgement for the case be given onscreen [even if its not pronounced with a bang of the gavel].
This is very scary, reading many comments online, that the movie will surely make certain parties to reopen the case. As if this movie is presenting the truth!
At a screening , Vishal B and his cast were present along with Aarushi’s aunt! What does this say? This whole scenario becomes a beginning of a case in favour of the parents, on the basis of a fictional story, as Talvar claims itself to be.
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brangan
October 4, 2015
A: No, no. I meant pretty much what you said, that we were being invited to have this POV through this scene. Earlier in the para I say that Vishal B hints at the parents’ innocence and here I was following up on that.
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S
October 4, 2015
Dear, A, whoever you are, thank you for articulating what is really wrong with this film. Cinematically, it might be brilliant, but when you think about what they are trying to say, it’s scary. I wish people understood just how scary.
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Utkal
October 4, 2015
A: “I am very surprised and it makes me quite disturbed that for a case that had no evidences, no crime scene data to begin with, a writer like Vishal B takes it up and creates a case that blatantly leans towards a specific result.”
And you are not surprised that ‘I for a case that had no evidences, no crime scene data to begin with, ” someone has been sentenced to life imprisonmnet?
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A
October 4, 2015
Utkal: Nopes, I was not surprised when it happened. Just fed up of the whole case and it didn’t matter if the parents were in or out scott free. Because by then, no one knew, or the people who knew chose to mislead.
See, the Aarushi murder case in real has given a particular judgement. What was happening during the five years of trail, in front of the whole nation, was a thoroughly unpleasant but unique experience. Right or wrong, this has to argued and fought for, offscreen.
BR: The former words were in italics and this wasn’t. So felt the continuity. But if you say so.. 🙂
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D
October 4, 2015
Probably, some of us should go through a recent publication named “Aarushi” by Avirook Sen. It goes well beyond the the investigations and describes the way the actual court case was fought. It gives a whole new perspective to this matter.
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A
October 4, 2015
Utkal:
When the judgement was passed then, if it felt wrong, how is it being said VB’s version is shedding ‘true’ light at what exactly happened? If that is not acceptable , this should be taken with a pinch of salt as well. But everyone is gushing at not just how well made Talvar is [its craft] but also insinuating positively at VB’s posited theory. How come?
Why is this not being addressed?
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Utkal
October 4, 2015
A: “Nopes, I was not surprised when it happened.”
Well. The film WANTS you to be surprised. And disturbed. That for a case ‘that had no evidences, no crime scene data to begin with’ someone can be convicted for murder and sentenced to life imprisonment. When the paradigm of our criminal jurisprudence is ‘it is better that a hundred suspects go free than a single innocent is convictd.’ That is waht is so scary. And so disturbing. That is the brilliance of the film.
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D
October 4, 2015
Important to note :
1) Public / Media had limited access to facts; but still strong opinions got made ; 2) Investigators did not collect sufficient evidence to negate one set of the probabilities, yet took the case to court with the other set; 3) The court adjudicated with the material on hand, which many felt was insufficient.
The makers of this movie boldly go ahead and take a contrarian view – its quite courageous. However, it would have been greater work of art if all the three investigation were given level playing field in terms of cinematic treatment. No one deserved to be a protagonist in this other than the main tragedy.
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AbhilashaChe
October 5, 2015
This movie is indeed Vishal baradwaj’s baby.
the dark humor, the subtle change of names, the attention paid to the writing of every character, big and small, there’s everything to love about that. and after movies like welcome back, hero and katti batti – its that much needed breath of fresh air.
While there are a lot of comparisons with rashomon, the movie’s a lot like oliver stone’s conspiracy thriller JFK, where one person in the film (irfan khan,Kevin Costner), unravels the case, finds a new theory to debunk the old one and presents it logically in the last knockout of a scene only to see the higher authorities go for the logic-less theory with the vested interests of many. JFK also goes back to the same crime scene (assassination of President john f. Kennedy) many times played out differently each time.
One thing that disappointed me about this otherwise superb film is the fact that the version of the film that shows that the parents did not kill the child are seemingly constructed in a way that the viewers are made to think and believe that the accusations put on the parents were absolutely baseless, whereas the circumstantial evidence of the murder which shows that the parents were the murderers was ignored in the film. When I followed the case over the years in the news, I could never ever understand who killed the child and the servant as the theories that showed how the parents killed the child sounded about as logical as the theory that said otherwise. That is why I felt that the movie (using its well talked about rashomonesque technique) would talk about all sides of the murder in the fairest manner possible. They did show various sides of the story, but not all sides of the story. maybe that is the problem with the way our films are marketed and we are made to believe. We are not uninformed but misinformed now. and ironically, the film that so criticised trial by media has also gone ahead and made its own judgement. or maybe it isn’t possible for a feature filmmaker to make a film that shows all sides of a story in the most unbiased manner.that he/she is doomed to pick sides.
Ps- pankaj Kumar’s cinematography is brilliant. Deserves the same praise showered on the likes of PC sreeram and santosh sivan.
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Anu Warrier
October 5, 2015
This whole scenario becomes a beginning of a case in favour of the parents, on the basis of a fictional story, as Talvar claims itself to be.
I figure Vishal Bhardwaj had as much right – in fact, even more so than the media, who are supposed to be objective – to make a case for what he thinks happened. You don’t have to agree with it, but he is well within his right to presume innocence on one side.
Considering the way the media botched up the reporting, sensationalising it to an extent that I’m sure affected its outcome in the court (and yes, I am very much a part of that media, or was), this is a film. Its making doesn’t affect the case or its outcome, nor is it going to make any difference going forward. I don’t see why we hold a scriptwriter to higher standards than we actually hold the media, whose job it is to present facts in a factual, objective manner. The media’s kangaroo courts which tried, found the Talwars guilty with no evidence whatsoever, and hung them in the court of public opinion, are a disgrace to the journalistic profession.
When we presume people guilty before they’re found innocent, we subvert the very course of justice. Because, then, it is a matter of finding evidence to fit those ‘facts’.
In the Talwar case, we will never know now whether it was an honour killing by the parents, or a double murder perpetrated by someone who had their own personal axe to grind. And the Talwars, tried and convicted for the murder of their daughter, will continue to live with that shadow hanging over their heads – whether they are guilty. Or innocent.
However, none of this need have bearing on what the film purports to show. It is up to the film maker to decide what point of view to present. That does not make it the truth. It makes it one of the many possible truths.
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JPhil
October 5, 2015
Riveting film in – as you noted – a scenario of a crime the details of which have been masticated on for a few years now. I found Irrfan playing to the gallery a mite but chuckled at the meeting of the investigating teams at the end.
It would be impossible for a screenwriter to not have a slant towards any one point of view and I agree (with the cryptic Mr ‘A’) that VB’s slant is obvious. But that would also be the case in films of the calibre of Oliver Stone’s JFK or Fincher’s Zodiac: It didn’t diminish the viewing experience for me one bit.
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Prasad
October 5, 2015
Fundamentally a movie based on a True Story should not take sides when there has been already judgment provided. Haven’t seen the movie but seems the movie has a taken a side of the Parents based on the comments.
There was a mention of Zodiac mentioned in the blog but that movie didn’t take any sides and it actually showed the procedural investigation process and the helplessness of the Police Officers .
This case also will remain as one of the unsolved myseries like that of Caylee Anthony which rocked US in 2008
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Caylee_Anthony
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brangan
October 5, 2015
A: You’re right. The lack of itals here is a little confusing. Have added it to make it more consistent with the earlier bit in itals. Thanks.
About your contention that people are taking this as fact… well, I’m not. This for me is fiction. It’s part of a long line of based-on-real-life stories. The sympathetic slant to the parents here is to me like how Mani Ratnam changed Karna’s fate in Thalapathy, because he viewed the character with compassion and didn’t want him to die. I know that’s myth and this is real life, but I’m just talking about the technique.
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niranjanmb
October 5, 2015
” There was a mention of Zodiac mentioned in the blog but that movie didn’t take any sides and it actually showed the procedural investigation process and the helplessness of the Police Officers .”
I haven’t seen ‘Talvar’ but Zodiac too had a PoV, namely that of the writer/cartoonist Robert Graysmith as the movie was based on his book that arose as the consequence of his own investigations. The problem is that usually when some basic tenets of criminal investigation are ignored and a crime scene is tampered with, then one can only play with circumstantial evidence and then, one usually uses that to enhance an opinion that one already has (for whatsoever reasons).
I guess one of the points of the movie is that once the investigation was botched (as I see from the Wiki page) then one opinion is as valid as another, so this is VB’s version of it (I mean his tilt) though I suppose the bigger point is that when the media sensationalized the case the way it did (and with this Indrani Mukherjee thing right now), a proper criminal investigation was no longer going to happen.
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Rahul
October 5, 2015
When you make a movie based on a real life story the advantage is that it lends a certain gravitas, and the disadvantage is that everyone knows what happens in the end. So, if this was a dry procedural, it may have been boring on account of the predictability, but at the same time, peppering it with the absurdist touches takes off the sheen from the cynicism underlying this story.
Perhaps I was expecting to see something else, something like Court, that leaves you with an acute, lingering and scary sense of the decay in the system and not that it wasn’t there, but the blows were tempered by the cleverness in the writing.
On another note, when I saw Tabu and Irrfan filing for divorce, I immediately thought of a remake of “A separation”. What a gorgeous film that would be. Konkona can play the maid.
On yet another note, Saharsh K Shukla, who played the stuttering approver in this movie, also played Alia’s creepy stalker in Highway. High time he gets a sizable supporting role.
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Anon
October 5, 2015
Have not watched the movie yet. Great review. What remains pathetic is our so called judiciary system. Unless something like this happens to in our own life or someone close to us, none of us are affected by it.
My own mom was murdered in our home. For a very long time, there was no clear suspect. As is with all the murder cases, the initial suspects and theories were that someone very close to the family would have done it, as there was no break-in. My dad was the number one on the suspect list and all the children were grilled about how their relationship was, etc etc. Thank God, my dad was out of town on the day of the incident as he had to attend a family function. Otherwise, we would have lost both our parents,
Finally the police nabbed the guy who did it. But he is roaming around freely and at this point, we really don’t care whether he gets convicted as it is not going to bring our mom back.
I was shocked to see our family album pictures in the paper. If this had happened during the present media circus time, my dad would have been proven guilty by the media.
Unless some overhaul happens to our police and judiciary system, there would be no shortage of movies like this and an audience who laps it all up and is enraged over the pathetic system.
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Priyangu
October 5, 2015
There would have been a better Rashomon-effect, if VB had also shown the POV of Shruti and Khempal by invoking their spirits and make them talk, just like the way it happens in Rashomon.
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SN
October 5, 2015
Saw this over the weekend. Was quite disturbed by the movie. Haven’t followed the actual incidents as I have been staying out of India and so do not follow the 24×7 live TV news circus. As everyone has mentioned, writing was really sharp and excellent. Performances were too and casting was absolutely spot on with all the characters (including the minor ones).
I read some other reviews on some other news site and just skimmed through some comments – I was expecting comments on how the movie was but was surprised instead at the fact that quite a few comments were on the actual case itself – class divide being a strong theme because the director comes from a “well to do family”, “one more attempt by influential Talwar couple to get sympathy”, “privileged upper class of India protecting what is possibly a simple case of white collar honor killing”, etc… Is that what the media played this up at that time? Seeing the house shown in the movie, didn’t strike me as the Tandons were that well off, seemed to be comfortable financially but by no stretch the “privileged upper class”… The film does seem to be biased towards that view (i.e. parents being innocent) for sure and I guess it is the writer’s prerogative (it is after all “based” on real facts, not a documentary). Slapping around that cop – why did you feel that his being of lower class was relevant? Wasn’t it more like CDI feeling outraged about the incompetence of the local police? Liked that piece of advice Irrfan gives the policeman – next time you find a blood stained mark of a hand at a crime scene, please pay attention to it!
2015 is turning out to be a very good year for hindi movies – Badlapur, Piku, TWMR, Talwar to name a few (of the ones that released here in Singapore)… ignoring the regular tripe that releases at all our festivals (one down, two more to go…).
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brangan
October 5, 2015
Anon: What a terrible experience. Horrifying just to read about it. But thank you for sharing it with us.
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Gradwolf
October 5, 2015
Why is the film taking a side problematic? I think the focus should be on how it goes about doing that more than whether it does or not. For what its worth, I felt the tone of the investigations themselves were quite dispassionate. And the sincerity or lack thereof reflected in the two investigations we are shown. Both investigations do have a problem of deciding an outcome (of whodunit) and then working backwards, one possibly more so than the other, which is where the class wars are drawn (and this along with the trial by media is somewhat apparent in the real case). But the choosing side part wasn’t explicit or propaganda-ish. The most explicit form is in the POV where the parents as murderers is treated with absurdist humor (like chalo rona shuru karna hai). That all POVs must be presented similarly and equally plausible is a bit of an overreach. I don’t think even Rashomon does it or goes for it.
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Anu Warrier
October 5, 2015
@Anon – it was horrifying just to read what your family went through. I’m sorry it happened, and that the perpetrator is roaming free. Thank you for sharing.
@A, D, S – birds of the same feather? Or the same feathered friend? 😉
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A
October 5, 2015
Utkal:
If after five years of judicial shenanigans that was on full display in front of the whole world did nothing and it takes a movie to surprise you, well, I have nothing more to say. And the ‘paradigm of our criminal jurisprudence’ was absent from day one.’ was absent from day one, as I said before. So you mentioning that the single innocent is convicted, reveals a lot. I cannot even utter the word innocent in this case as every every party had messed up!
Annu Warrior:
There is nothing wrong in VB taking a partisan stand. He could have gone the whole nine yards and shown the parents out of prison celebrating and it would not matter , as long as it is considered a fictional take on the Asrushi murder case. But this is not happening. The whole positivism associated with how the film has been received is about how the Talwars have been wronged. Just as the media was baying for their blood back then, this movie is just about set the ball rolling in the opposite direction. Which is not being talked about. And that is very very worrisome.
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Utkal
October 5, 2015
Then joint director Arun Kumar – played by actor Irrfan Khan in the film – insists that there is no evidence to suggest that Rajesh and Nupur Talwar, currently in Dasna jail near Delhi, killed their daughter.
“There are several reasons why I think that,” said Mr Kumar, who is now posted with the Central Reserve Police Force. “First and foremost is that the killers couldn’t have assumed that the body of Hemraj would not have been found on the first day.”
Hemraj’s body was found by the Noida police a day after Aarushi’s, from the roof of the same building.
“Forensic samples were never collected and if they had been, then the case could have been solved very easily,” said Mr Kumar.
No one from the CBI has ever spoken about the fact that two of its investigation teams contradicted each other – the first team said the Talwars’ helps killed Aarushi, but the second CBI team said the parents killed Aarushi after finding her with Hemraj.
It was Mr Kumar’s theory that the Talwars’ help Krishna killed both Aarushi and Hemraj because Hemraj had objected to Krishna and Rajkumar assaulting the teen.
The theory was junked after a new CBI director, Ashwani Kumar, took over.
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/aarushi-case-investigation-officer-breaks-silence-says-parents-innocent-1226639?pfrom=home-lateststories
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brangan
October 5, 2015
Okay, is it no longer permissible for an artist to contrive a fiction from real life?
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Ram Murali
October 5, 2015
Anon – thank you for sharing that gut-wrenching story. I am deeply sorry about your loss (that too under such horrible circumstances) and I will pray for your family to have much happier memories for the rest of your life.
Thank you, once again, for sharing such a personal story. I just hope that your comments on the judiciary system don’t go unaddressed…
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A
October 5, 2015
Quote:
“………..It was Mr Kumar’s theory that the Talwars’ help Krishna killed both Aarushi and Hemraj because Hemraj had objected to Krishna and Rajkumar assaulting the teen.
The theory was junked after a new CBI director, Ashwani Kumar, took over.
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/aarushi-case-investigation-officer-breaks-silence-says-parents-innocent-1226639?pfrom=home-lateststories”
And so it begins!
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Anu Warrier
October 5, 2015
Just as the media was baying for their blood back then, this movie is just about set the ball rolling in the opposite direction. Which is not being talked about. And that is very very worrisome.
I don’t understand. Why is it worrisome? There is enough evidence, in real life, to show that the case was bungled from the word ‘go’. The media went baying for their blood then, and succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. Now, this film, fictionalised though it is, is causing the media to push the other way. That is the nature of the beast.
And if it brings about a reopening of the case to take a fresh look at the evidence – if that is even possible – what is wrong? Justice delayed is justice denied, but ‘delayed’ is better than ‘denied’. At least to the people who are innocent.
So, when you say: Utkal: Nopes, I was not surprised when it happened. Just fed up of the whole case and it didn’t matter if the parents were in or out scott free. Because by then, no one knew, or the people who knew chose to mislead.
So because you are fed up of the case, and you don’t care if the parents are innocent or guilty (or any other person is innocent or guilty), no one should put out a counterpoint to the mainstream view?
See, the Aarushi murder case in real has given a particular judgement. What was happening during the five years of trail, in front of the whole nation, was a thoroughly unpleasant but unique experience. Right or wrong, this has to argued and fought for, offscreen.
And therefore, that should be the end of it? Because judgement has been pronounced? And of course, no sentence has ever been wrongly meted out in the annals of the court?
I sit here, shaking my head at that, since we here in the US, are in the process of having many hundreds of earlier sentences overturned in the courts with the finding of new evidence.
You’re saying that because Bhardwaj and Gulzar decided to show one point of view, there is a push in the media and among the public to reopen the case and that is worrying. Why? If they are guilty, the evidence will still prove them so. If they are innocent, do you really want them to spend be punished twice over, once by the brutal death of their child and again by a society which decides that they didn’t mourn the way that all mourning parents should?
I had a baby die in my arms. I held him for 25 minutes and watched him die. I didn’t cry in the hospital. My tears were shed in private. The only person who saw them was my husband. If anyone were to tell me that I didn’t mourn my child’s death because they had never seen me cry? It’s not my responsibility to mourn the way they want me to mourn. My emotions are not drama for prime time TV (or its societal equivalent). And I don’t give a damn what anyone thinks of my grief, or its seeming lack thereof.
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Priyangu
October 5, 2015
@Anon Thanks for sharing your experience. These days there is a of deep feeling of insecurity because of our weak society in general, right from upper level to lower. The situation corners us to hold on blindly to what we believe as God, as we do not have anything else to trust.
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A
October 5, 2015
Annu Warrior:
One cannot go back to the case as there is nothing to begin with, again. You’ve said it in a previous comment. We will never know. So re-opening is as redundant and it will be a repeat. Unless the culprit comes forth and confesses with evidence to nail. Possibility of which is zero.
Anything said more by me, will be repetitive. And due respect to your loss, but it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, what I have argued for.
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Ram Murali
October 5, 2015
Anu Warrier – those were such passionate words. Thank you for your comment. Having gone through the experience of a miscarriage with my wife was one of the most life-defining and relationship-altering experiences ever. The way my wife and I mourned were very, very different and it surely taught us a thing or two about accepting vastly different reactions to the same event and being empathetic and respectful of the other person. That was the first thing that I thought of when I read BR’s review but I didn’t want to comment then. But after having seen your comment, I had to write about this even though I try to not revisit our experience too often in my mind…
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olemisstarana
October 6, 2015
A: It’s Anu, not Annu.
Also, Anu mentions an instant of grief that was personal to her, and the possibility of others judging her for not being more public with this grief. It is germane to the conversation that you began in your first comment where you observe how Baradwaj casts the contours of Nutan’s private grief in a manner that casts her as an innocent, grieving mother (Baradwaj did clarify his intent later, yes.)
In general: This isn’t a documentary film, is it? I did not walk expecting a 60 minutes style expose. This is fiction, cinema, Bollywood at that. Giving credence to the disclaimers “Based on Real Events” or other such boilerplate language is an exercise in futility. Yes, Rashomon is one scene deconstructed by several gazes, but the intention was never to go after the elusive truth. The order of stories told in Rashomon is the biggest editing tool the film maker wields, and he wields that and many others to add tension and weight all leading to a conclusion he wants the viewer to reach. The device itself is nothing but taint. What would have made this movie (Talvar) closer to the truth that the filmmaker should have aspired to?
I was in India when this happened. The chop-smacking glee with which this tragedy was covered in the media was reflected in the utter lack of real engagement from the consumers of such media. We went every which way – “Why yes, the murdered girl could have had sexual relations with her middle aged servant, perhaps even her father, or maybe her mother was caught in a compromising position with the mailman, etc. etc. ETfuckingC.”
At the end of the day, the belief that this movie is somehow biased toward the Talwars is some 0 Kelvin bone chilling level of comfort to a family that has (1) lost a daughter, (2) had two murders committed in their home overnight, (3) had the daughter’s character shat on by the media, (4) been accused of these murders – rightly or not – (5) been jailed, released, jailed again, exonerated, then not, then again both individually and as a couple, (6) become recognizable faces and had your character pilloried by the media and consumers of this media who are so jaded by all this content that they register no surprise, and indeed register surprise only at other peoples surprise.
So yeah, this movie’s truth is biased in the favor of such a couple. What it’s not in favor of is the frightful parody of a court and criminal justice system and a media that is staffed by chattering Nancy Grace clones. The Innocence Project here in the States is a 50-state wide undertaking that questions the decisions reached by a similarly flawed system using DNA evidence combined with some seriously effective cold case sleuthing. A podcast became immensely popular here – Serial – did something similar, by going back through court records, testimony, newspaper and TV reportage, police statements, case documents to cast another light on the death of a young American woman. Serial has led to the case in question being reopened (for defense attorney shortfalls, yes, but at least it resulted in something.)
If Talvar means that the sordidness of this whole labyrinthian tale will be looked at with some skepticism again, then I for one am a-ok with that.
And Utkal, while I many not agree with everything you say, I do wholeheartedly say Amen to “let a thousand guilty go free rather than one innocent be punished.”
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Utkal
October 6, 2015
A: ” We will never know. So re-opening is as redundant and it will be a repeat. “
It is not redundant. If we cannot know, in other words, if no hard evidence can be produced, then Talwars should be set free. That’s not REDUNDANT. That’s justice delivered.
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olemisstarana
October 6, 2015
A: Actually, it’s Anu Warrier.
Plus, I’d be interested in your reasoning as to why reopening this case, or debating the merits of the judgment is futile. Either (1) you are comfortable with the verdict and believe the perpetrators have been brought to justice, or (2) it’s just all too confusing, and we will never know the truth anyway, so why bother with any of this. I suspect it is the 2nd option listed given that you say “So re-opening is as redundant and it will be a repeat. Unless the culprit comes forth and confesses with evidence to nail. Possibility of which is zero.”
This position is – to me – offensive (and please forgive me for the baldness of this sentiment, I realize how it comes across when typed up.)
The burden of proof rests on the prosecution. This means that if the prosecution does a shitty job, then even if the defense just says “Nuh-uh, I didn’t do it,” the defendant goes free. (This is an oversimplification, but I am not too far off the mark). And this is how it should be. With the vast resources and machinery at the hands of the government and prosecution, with a centuries old system in place with people who should be theoretically experts at their jobs, the cards are stacked in the favor of the prosecution. Any prosecutorial misconduct is a grave, grave misstep and should be punished as strictly as possible, even if it means that a guilty defendant goes free, because otherwise there is zero incentive to improve.
Here, there is no incentive for the machinery to improve because they have a “criminal” in custody despite the fact that almost all their evidence is circumstantial and shoddy. Read it – 26 pieces of circumstantial evidence which are so laughably absurd I cannot believe they got a conviction. Over and above the fact that the investigating authorities made some horrendous blunders and contaminated the scene. This isn’t some conspiracy theory level stuff, and I am still not saying that the Talwars are innocent, I am just saying the case against them is ridiculously flimsy and no prosecution should be allowed to get away with such unprofessionalism.
(Sorry, BR – I know this is not about the movie, but this case really struck a chord in me. Lived very close to where this child lost her life when I was in India.)
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tonks
October 6, 2015
A:
Not sure if the case can be reopened now but if somebody has been given life imprisonment on the basis of botched up or not-enough clear cut evidence, then isn’t that a terrible wrong? A miscarriage of justice? Why would re opening be redundant?
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niranjanmb
October 6, 2015
Another way to ‘justify’ (if justify is really the word I want) VB’s writing this movie with the implicit reading that the parents are actually innocent, is this. If the parents were really innocent, then they have (I think the movie’s detailing there isn’t off) aided by the media circus surrounding it, actually convicted people off a thoroughly incompetent investigation. So, I would argue that the movie is still about the poor investigation rather than VB taking sides because of ‘whatever’ reasons.
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Anu Warrier
October 6, 2015
@ Ram Murali – thank you. I’m very sorry for the loss you and your wife suffered. I do not revisit this much either. It’s been 15 years. But I recollect it at moments such as these.
@olemisstarana It is germane to the conversation that you began in your first comment where you observe how Baradwaj casts the contours of Nutan’s private grief in a manner that casts her as an innocent, grieving mother.
Thank you as well for understanding why I felt the need to open a far-from-closed personal wound in public.
(And more thanks for the correction of my name. grin)
@Utkal – Indeed! And if we pride ourselves on being being civilised, that’s the only way to live!
@olemisstarana – again: it’s just all too confusing, and we will never know the truth anyway, so why bother with any of this. I suspect it is the 2nd option listed…
This position is – to me – offensive
Thank you for that! That comment is what flicked me on the raw earlier today. That somehow because they have been punished (and never mind if the punishment is deserved or not), it is unnecessary to reopen the case, that it is almost criminal that Bhardwaj should present a point of view that ruffles our ordered existence now that these deviants have been put into prison. (So, in effect, for all of A’s ‘We will never know’ , he/she seems to believe in the Talwars’ guilt.)
A hearty applause for these sentences in particular: The burden of proof rests on the prosecution. and Any prosecutorial misconduct is a grave, grave misstep… (as well as the rest of your post!)
We must, must presume innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent. You spoke of the Innocence Project. That is exactly what I was referring to in my earlier post. Each prisoner who is set free because of fresh evidence, or a fresh look at the previous evidence, brings tears to my eyes. As one man said, after being declared innocent of a rape that he had been convicted for (DNA evidence showed he was innocent), ‘I’ve my freedom today (after 27 years), but I have nothing else.’
And it is true – what reparations do we make these men, who have spent a better part of their life behind bars for crimes they did not commit? And do we say, oh, let’s wait for the real rapists and murderers to come and confess before we re-open their cases? Because we are tired, and we will simply be repeating the same evidence and it is redundant?
Redundant for whom? I ask you? Not for them who languish in prisons accused and convicted of crimes they have not committed. Not for the families of these men who have lost their sons, their brothers, their husbands, their fathers… Not for a society that claims to have a conscience, who proudly state that any man is innocent unless proven guilty. I assure you – it is not redundant for them. Or for us. Not if we want to claim we are a civilised people, that we believe in justice for all. Not just for us.
Rangan, my apologies. I did not intend to hog your comments section like this. Nor did I intend the conversation to move tangentially into the real case, or other cases like it. I see / hear too much of the travesty of justice where I live to be able to be so inured to it that I can say ‘Why should we have a repeat?’
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Rahul
October 6, 2015
I had thought of asking this question in my earlier post but I forgot. It struck me odd that the second team went out of the way to frame the parents. Did I miss something? Did they have a vested interest?
I think this was very arbitrary and its a key point. Im not buying “green with jealousy” etc. as a good enough reason.
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ramitbajaj01
October 6, 2015
The earlier pronouncement was by the district court. The appeal is already pending in high court ( it was filed much before the release of this movie). The hearing is next month.
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Dr.Srinivas
October 6, 2015
I’ll refrain from commenting on the Film before seeing it and forming an informed opinion.(Will watch it today.) However, I wonder if Mr. A has watched Errol Morris’s seminal ‘The Thin Blue Line’ and Hathaway’s ‘Call Northside 777’, especially the former. A bit perplexed that no one has mentioned this until now.
Although purportedly a fictional take on a real-life incident unlike Morris’s Film, I suspect Mr.A is under the impression that VB is loathe to take Morris’s position as the relentless truth seeker without the proverbial axe to grind and let the chips fall as they may.
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Dr.Srinivas
October 6, 2015
It’s easy to be cynical but a person accused of a crime (wrongly or otherwise) must be given every chance to prove his/her innocence. That’s indisputable.
One can never say ‘never’ and rule out closure. Sometimes it can catch a smug killer napping. You never know. Jarecki’s ‘The Jinx: The Life & Deaths Of Robert Durst’ which I had the pleasure of viewing recently, is a case in point.
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VS
October 6, 2015
Superb article! Loved the film.
Read a new angle about Ijazat, being used in the film, in following article on Talvar. Earlier had not paid much attention to Ijazat’s reference used in the film.
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VS
October 6, 2015
Also in agreement with points raised in hindi article about comparison between Talvar and Rashomon’s technique as not much attention has been paid by Vishal and Meghna Duo on the investigation done by CBI’s 2nd team. It seems Rashomon angle was used just to market the film 🙂
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VS
October 6, 2015
Did not know about Tehelka’s article on Arushi Talvar murder case. But now after reading it, I find complete agreement with hindi article that Talvar is totally based on the article of Tehelka Journalist. Film and Vishal Bhardwaj should give her the due credit.
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bart
October 6, 2015
A very taut, well narrated movie from the narrator’s POV. This movie is not an universal judgement on the actual trial and all that matters is that the team Meghna + Vishal have done a great job.
A good review too.Your review pointed to the “showy” Irfaan but I thought it was deliberately done to showcase the irony that Ashwin was actually detached from the proceedings when the trial was conducted, which is what the new CBI director wants the second team to do. The writer also took pains to show that the second team investigator on the contrary is very “attached” and hence is “biased”.
Thanks VS for that Tehelka video link on that hindi review. Also the “Ijazat” angle (a short story “meta” narrated) was a googly. The presumption of viewers a) to have seen Gulzar’s movie and b) to link that to Ashwini-Rima episodes and further to the Tandon couple is just far fetched though.
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tonks
October 6, 2015
m.timesofindia.com/home/sunday-times/deep-focus/Aarushi-judge-wrote-verdict-even-before-defence-finished-argument/articleshow/47941271.cms
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Rahini David
October 6, 2015
I regret that I don’t have much time to comment much in this great thread. However, just a link to those who are new here
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bart
October 6, 2015
Couple of addendums:
a) The second investigator is shown playing robber and police with his kid, when he acts that he is searching for his son actually knowing where he is but the kid changes his hiding place and hits him unexpectedly when he is “talking” with his superiors. Put the case’s culprits in place of his son and thats how he was going to approach his “investigation”!
b) @ Rahul: The final meeting room scene and the tehelka video in the end talk about this. The sardar UP chief police official is shown pals with the new CBI director in an earlier scene ((The movie also shows that the new investigator and Vedant are pals – Fraternity). The second CBI team intent is to protect the “fraternity” that is the UP police and hence runs frame-the-parents-somehow-investigation which will help his Sardar pal save his face.
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Reuben
October 6, 2015
Anu Warrier and olemisstarana,
Great comments and well written.
I was reminded of this quote by Tom Waits when I was reading some of the other comments:
“The world is a hellish place, and bad writing is destroying the quality of our suffering”
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punit
October 6, 2015
The movie is a propaganda movie with capital P. The sort of movie which will make Joseph Goebbels smile In his grave. I have no issue with VB taking a side either because of sympathy, money or whatever. I do have problem with the fact that the story, and film,leaves no stone unturned to declare the servants guilty if the crime. It use all classic propaganda tools: Lie, half truth, selective omissions and addition, weak portrayal of one side etc to drive home its single agenda that talwars just because being parent cant kill their daughter while the servants can easily do it.
Many people either here or other boards having intellectual orgasm over the movie do not even know,that narco tests were done thrice on the servants and each time they came with different version. While mrs talwar gave diff statements rgarding key of Arushi room which was a key factor in judgement going against
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olemisstarana
October 6, 2015
@Punit: Narco tests are pseudoscience. Secondly, I really hope you have never felt the level of trauma that a woman like Mrs. Talwar has had to face and been asked to give hostile bumbling detectives a key.
I agree, this is a movie stacked in the favor of the Talwars who are victims of a terrible prosecution, but it’s a movie, innit? Not a documentary etc.
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olemisstarana
October 6, 2015
Also, intellectual orgasm… (-___-)
Really?
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olemisstarana
October 6, 2015
Women of Mrs. Talwar’s age and socioeconomic background are rarely seen on screen in a meaningful context. The reaction to Mrs. Talwar speaking a few days after the murder and shortly after Mr. Talwar was so tasteless. She was expected to emote, to cry, to throw up her hands, pass out, call on god, beat her chest, invoke the furies, anything but this… this relatively calm woman with hollowed out eyes who spoke on an even keel. I blame the depiction, or lack of depiction of such women in popular media – on TV and in movies. We all seem to know how she should act, we have a pre-existing template she did NOT faithfully adhere to.”
In an interview with Sonia Singh (incidentally Singh was the journalist approached by the Talwars for Mrs. Talwar’s interview), Konkona Sen said, “…when I first watched Nupur… we were discussing how she is not how women are depicted, this is not how women are seen in the media whether it is films or television stories, and things like that, and especially since we rarely really see an older woman and such complex emotions in a realistic way portrayed, so she is not conforming to various conventions which is then difficult for people to accept. This is a collective thing on the part of film makers, news makers and audiences together. They have to have more representation of women in a more realistic manner, an experience of their world in a more realistic manner.”
I almost do not want to type here that Sonia Singh has been very dismayed about the reaction to her 2008 interview with Mrs. Talwar particularly because she (Singh) made the decision not to keep Mrs. Talwar on camera when she broke down, so that Singh could allow her some dignity in her most vulnerable moments of grief. Because, you know, ultimately it does not matter and every single one of us, guilty or innocent, grieves in our own way.
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-ndtv-dialogues/talvar-irrfan-khan-konkona-and-vishal-bhardwaj-talk-to-ndtv/384911
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ramitbajaj01
October 6, 2015
Thanks for the clarification, Bart, regarding the Sardar cop saving face. It is just one of the things (another being that promotion angle that BR sir explains) that make me wish VB were a cleaner scriptwriter, like say Zoya Akhtar.
(each of my friends had a different explanation for why Vedant switched sides. After reading this article, now I know the conclusive answer.) (why the CBI chief acted wierdly, I could never understand if not for ur reply, Bart. Thanks)
PS- overall i agree the script was very very smart. I just wish it had given finishing touches to some of the threads it started, so that lesser beings like me would have understood it. Say, after the Vedant betrayal, how about he receiving his promotion letter. And, after the stuttering guy’s statement was rejected by CBI chief, how about he making a call and that being received by Sardar ji.
If that had been way too unreal then why start the thread at the first place?
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Rahul
October 6, 2015
Bart, thanks , but saving face argument is still weak to me. Its not like the old team was facing any disciplinary action. Why go to so much trouble? p.s. I’m only talking about the movie.
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olemisstarana
October 6, 2015
@Reuben – Hah! Here’s another one from ol’ Cotton Balls himself “Most people don’t care if you’re telling them the truth or if you’re telling them a lie, as long as they’re entertained by it.”
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bart
October 6, 2015
@ ramitbajaj01: I thought the movie was understated by design leading the viewers to connect the dots. e.g.: The scene of the new CBI chief with Vedant on the corridor, the betrayal scene followed by the new team where Vedant is heading it are the dots. Similarly, the new CBI chief crossing Sardar earlier in corridor followed by the meeting room scene where the old CBI chief specifically points out that the Sardar and CBI chief are pals are the dots. Connecting the dots is viewer dependent and I agree to that..
@ Rahul: If the CBI investigation points to the servants as culprits, the trial judge would have to reprimand the UP police for their shoddy investigation is a given. To avoid the above situation, especially when the chiefs are pals is good enough but yes, the movie assumes that you understand the weight of this case and the repercussions of CBI going against police in this case.
In general, the movie doesn’t explicitly state many things (even the “Ijazat” link pointed in earlier comments) perhaps because the case is too well known… But I for one, prefer this treatment than tending towards a Madhur Bhandarkar style.
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olemisstarana
October 6, 2015
@Tonks: Thanks for that link, I almost lost my lunch.
Anyone: I am not conversant with how appeals work in the Indian court system. What is the basis for this appeal? Judicial misconduct? Because if the judge began writing his opinion (or dictating it to his son, smh…) before the defense even began its argument then that should be grounds.
Again, BR – sorry, more derailing from the movie.
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Rahul
October 6, 2015
the movie assumes that you understand the weight of this case
Ok, its clear to me now , that because of the media glare and interest of public the stakes were much higher than the average case. But, this was the meat in the story IMHO and this should have been the other major theme of the story , apart from the screw ups and incompetence in the investigation.
I don’t think that this is an anti bhandarkar approach . I couldn’t have understood this point without the reference to the actual case. Maybe I need to watch it again, but at this point I think that the writer and director definitely dropped the ball here.
That said, I do not share the objections of ramitbajaj01.
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A
October 7, 2015
“olemisstarana It is germane to the conversation that you began in your first comment where you observe how Baradwaj casts the contours of Nutan’s private grief in a manner that casts her as an innocent, grieving mother. ”
It was w.r.t what BR had written. The topic ended there. It was not related to what Anu [apologies for getting the double n before] Warrior had written. I had responded to her particular comment.
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punit
October 7, 2015
olemisstarana@ Exactly my point. Narco test are Pseudo Science but it is used in movie as a powerful propaganda tool. The Selective visuals of servants admitting murder is used very clearly to convince the gullible viewers. The viewers in the cinema hall were like OMG the servant admitted murdering the kid and servant what more proof CBI!!
i repeat once again that i have nothing against Talwars. But the movie sole agenda is to portray the servants as guilty which again is as much wrong. The movie is showing as if the of the 1st CBI team was the one doing true investigation while second team was just enacting farce. Again a grand visual propaganda with effective employment of Irrfan Khan and his acting. i mean between Irrfan and the other chap ( second CBI team lead) audience will automatically go with Irrfan!! The movie gives a feeling that the case was concrete solid against servants was the justice was just round the corner but the bad guy came with and spoilt everything. I repeat nothing can be further from truth. The evidence against servants were as shoddy and the the first investigation against was full of controversy as was the second one.
i am no journalist but i am following the case since the very beginning. I have read many article published from the camp of talwars they all have a common theme, they all go great details in establishing the innocence of Talwars siting shoddy police work (which is true to an extent) but at the same time they all consider the Servants as not only usual suspect but guilty as well. This movie is just an extension of same and does the same.
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ramitbajaj01
October 7, 2015
@bart- For the extra fodder that movies provide, I am all in for dots, leaving the viewer to join them. But for the major plot points, the script should help the viewers in connecting the dots, otherwise only the intelligent first benchers would understand it. (and there are equally subtle ways to do that)
@olemisstarana- If one is not satisfied with the verdict, one can keep on making appeals, from district courts to high courts to supreme court then reappeal in supreme court. In certain cases, even further more appeals. ( Salman Khan, Jaylalitha cases, for instance)
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ramitbajaj01
October 7, 2015
Yakub Memon case had extended appeals.
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Dr.Srinivas
October 7, 2015
I have seen the movie & Punit has a point. The Film is quite blatantly in favour of the Talwars.
However, he categorically says that nothing could be farther from the truth. What is the basis of this statement? Does this then mean that the second CBI team had an equally solid case in incriminating the Talwars?
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brangan
October 7, 2015
Is it a worldwide thing or just an Indian thing that we expect objectivity all the time, despite knowing there is no such thing? We want our critics to be objective and unbiased. Now we want Vishal B to not take sides…
Another thing. Someone above made the point that something was so subtle that the audience wouldn’t get it. Well, that’s not an issue really, and the filmmaker cannot go about wondering if the audiences will get everything. When it comes to the broad sense, yes — but not in the nuances.
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Utkal
October 7, 2015
Let’s say Mrghna and Vishal have made a film to show that the Talwars are innocent and have been wrongly imprisoned. Waht’s the problem there?
The film The Hurricane was made with precisely under similar circumstances with similar objective.
“Rubin “Hurricane” Carter (May 6, 1937 – April 20, 2014) was an American middleweight boxer who was wrongfully convicted of murder[1] and later freed via a petition of habeas corpus after spending almost 20 years in prison.
In 1966, police arrested both Carter and friend John Artis for a triple-homicide committed in the Lafayette Bar and Grill in Paterson, New Jersey. Police stopped Carter’s car and brought him and Artis, also in the car, to the scene of the crime. On searching the car, the police found ammunition that fit the weapons used in the murder.[2] Police took no fingerprints at the crime scene and lacked the facilities to conduct a paraffin test for gunshot residue. Carter and Artis were tried and convicted twice (1967 and 1976) for the murders, but after the second conviction was overturned in 1985, prosecutors chose not to try the case for a third time.
Carter’s autobiography, titled The Sixteenth Round, was published in 1975 by Warner Books. The story inspired the 1975 Bob Dylan song “Hurricane” and the 1999 film The Hurricane (with Denzel Washington playing Carter). From 1993 to 2005, Carter served as executive director of the Association in Defence of the Wrongly Convicted.”
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SM
October 7, 2015
Brangan: Now we want Vishal B to not take sides…
You seem to be quite upset with this demand.
Let me ask a few questions
a) Are people able to take a movie simply as a movie? Are they not getting impacted by it in ridiculous ways?
b) Does everybody know that people get impacted by movies in ridiculous ways?
c) Can a director claim of being unaware of the phenomenon that people get impacted by movies in ridiculous ways?
A few side notes:
a) If I have to travel in the hinterlands of Haryana, I would be very fearful. This fear emanates only from the recent portrayal of the honor killings, general treatment of woman etc.
b) I was having a chat with my Canadian colleague (who I would not call a person with extreme opinions) about immigration problems and he presented an argument along the lines of “Now India is a country full of rapists … should we stop Indian people from entering US/Canada”, and my mind shot back to the issue of banning the documentary because it might create a wrong impression. I am sure there are people in parliaments who have similarly strong opinions. So opinions (however random) can potentially negatively impact bilateral relationship and social/political/monitory situations.
Based on the above, I suggest that it would be very reasonable on the part of directors to be “aware” of my first 2 questions above and refrain from choosing sensitive topics as a backdrop unless they deem it absolutely necessary.
Again, I am not supporting governmental banning. Also, I am not trying to ban directors from making hard hitting movies on sensitive topics. I am simply asking them not to deny ground realities in the name of artistic freedom (sometimes which hides monitory gains by deliberately raking controversial topics)
Movies and TV are prime movers of emotions and opinions in our society, whether we like it or not. Denying this is simply ridding ourselves from the responsibility.
Does this apply to the current movie? – I would be inclined to say so. Why? Because, VB is perpetuating his GUESS/Opinion/Emotion knowing fully well, the impact it would have on viewers across the country. “I am making a fictional movie and oh my god, people cant be so stupid to believe it”, does not hold for me. What if it leads to re-opening of case? Does the director take some responsibility for wasted resources that would be spent on the case again? There are millions of case already pending and those people are suffering too. No?
As a side note, I feel cinematically it would have been more interesting to go completely Roshomon on us, instead of giving us an easy target in the “system” and an easy emotional support in the “hero”. It would have denied our need for closure and probably would have been more fun.
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brangan
October 7, 2015
SM:
a) Are people able to take a movie simply as a movie? Are they not getting impacted by it in ridiculous ways?
Maybe not.
b) Does everybody know that people get impacted by movies in ridiculous ways?
Of course.
c) Can a director claim of being unaware of the phenomenon that people get impacted by movies in ridiculous ways?
No.
But my point is simply this: An artist may know all this, but he cannot be thinking about all this while making the movie, which is a personal expression. If we take the film the wrong way, it is not his fault. It’s ours.
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tonks
October 7, 2015
It’s impossible to say a thing exactly the way it was, because what you say can never be exact, you always have to leave something out, there are too many parts, sides, crosscurrents, nuances; too many gestures, which could mean this or that, too many shapes which can never be fully described, too many flavours, in the air or on the tongue, half-colours, too many.
Margaret Atwood
‘The handmaid’s tale’
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tonks
October 7, 2015
What if it leads to re-opening of case? Does the director take some responsibility for wasted resources that would be spent on the case again? There are millions of case already pending and those people are suffering too. No?
In this particular case, since an appeal has already gone to a higher court, and the case will definitely be taken up again, the point is moot.
Because I had always felt that the parents were unfairly sentenced on flimsy evidence, it’s difficult to summon up much outrage, but would a biased movie affect further judgement? I cannot help but wonder what the ethics of that is, in such a situation, when a case is still not completely closed.
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MANK
October 7, 2015
Brangan, watching the film was quite a gut wrenching experience. Its really gritty piece of filmmaking. i had nightmares and had trouble sleeping after watching the film. Just some observations about the film and your review. Spoilers all the way..
your point about VB writing the hell out of the film – well i find his fingerprints all over the film. I strongly suspect that he was a ghost director on this. I am not that aware of much of Meghna Gulzar’s work so not familiar with her style (ie if she even has a style), its difficult to clearly say where the script stops and direction begins, but still the way all those police interrogation scenes are staged looked-not just the writing, the lighting, framing, the behavior of actors – exactly like in maqbool or kaminey. dunno whether you felt the same?.
the character of shruti remains a blur throughout the film. we come to know almost nothing about her except for some aspersions cast on her character by the second CBI investigator – missionary position, dirty videos – and some scenes of her from the perspective of the killers and the final scene of her photographing parents. would it have been nice if there was some exposition about her before showing her death? That would have made us care more for her death rather than the investigative process that is the pivot of the film. may be you might say that is the point, but still the film’s closing line is about shruti and how she would have been 22 today. so it would have been more affecting if we had spend some time with her alive.
the rashomon effect you talked about – it wasnt just about multiple POVs, the thing that truly startles you is in that film is when the real nature of characters comes out, especially that of the raped women, who is revealed to be not so innocent after all and the bandit isn’t without redeeming qualities, but here i was disappointed that there was no peeling away of layers in characters, it was just concentrated on plot. the characters begin and end pretty much the way they started out.
And contrary to your view, i didnt find Irrfan’s strutting movie starry. I think it fit well within the realistic, nuanced nature of the film. He did not take me out of the film.
But all said and done, it was a terrific piece of filmmaking and a review befitting it. Its not a film that you would watch 2 times a week. Honestly i dont know whether i want to watch it again any time soon. it just hit me so hard
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brangan
October 7, 2015
When I say “As Ashwin, Irrfan gives a fantastic movie-star performance,” I mean this as a good thing. Being starry is bad only if it yanks you out of the film. Here, Ashwin is a star, and Irrfan, accordingly, plays him at a pitch that’s slightly starry. All good, IMO.
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MANK
October 7, 2015
Someone above made the point that something was so subtle that the audience wouldn’t get it. Well, that’s not an issue really
Absolutely. the filmmakers are not explicitly making any judgements whether the CDI and the police officer being batchmates have anything to do with the scuttling of the investigation. Its just a random piece of information thrown at the viewer and it is shown in the final conference scene where irfan again makes the point and CDI ask him so what? and he says ‘nothing’. just like the betrayal of Vedant may or may not be linked with his promotion. may be he genuinely believed that IRRfan’s methods were brutal and the testimony was wrongly forced out of the witness. I had a problem with the depiction of Paul, the second CBIofficer – he is reduced to a caricature in some scenes – that place your hand on your heart and look at their faces and can you say there are not guilty – that brought a lot of laughs, but do CBI officers ever speak like that, especially in front of their superior? wouldnt they be kicked out if they did. or is the situation even worse? And do CBI officers kick a police constable around as it is shown in the film. I thought as opposed to police, the CBI never uses force, leave alone on a policeman.
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Anu Warrier
October 7, 2015
What if it leads to re-opening of case? Does the director take some responsibility for wasted resources that would be spent on the case again?
Umm, if there has been a miscarriage of justice (and we will know that only if the case is reopened), this is a bad thing. How?
Consider this: you have been accused of a crime you didn’t commit. The police bungle up your case – it’s been known to happen, you know; you are brought before the court having already been tried in the court of public opinion and found guilty. The judge, influenced heavily by the media circus, finds you guilty and sentences you to life imprisonment, or worse.
Would you not want your ‘case’ to be looked at from your point of view, and the same public opinion used to get the case to be reopened? Would that then be ‘wasted’ resources? Or are resources wasted only because you are as convinced of the Talwars’ guilt as you accuse VB of being convinced of their innocence?
I have no idea if a cold case can be solved with all the bungling and myriad interpretations that have been spun before. But just because a high-profile case has been tried and concluded – once -, it does not mean that a film-maker –any film-maker cannot put forth a fresh perspective. If that makes the viewers think that his view could be the right one, that’s his success as a scriptwriter/director. Obviously, not everyone is going to be convinced. You, for example, are most upset that he even dared to suggest that the Talwars may be innocent. Why? Your view that the Talwars are guilty and the case should not be reopened is valid? His, that they are not (or may be not) guilty, and the case could do with a fresh appeal is not valid?
As far as I’m concerned, not having a horse in this race, both viewpoints are equally valid, and he has as much right as you do to express his view. Tomorrow, if you decide to write an op-ed piece claiming that their perspective is wrong, I’ll defend your right to say it.
Where I draw the line – personally – is in your (or anyone else) saying that VB and Gulzar had no right to say what they did, the way they said it, because by doing so, they are going to help reopen the case and it is a waste of resources.
In any case, by reopening the case (if they do, at all), there is no guarantee that they will find the Talwars innocent, no matter what Bhardwaj and Gulzar showed on screen. If they do find them innocent, it will be either because they are innocent, or because there is sufficient doubt about their guilt to convict them of the crime.
You do not put a person in prison or sentence him because you think he /she did it. When it is a question of a human life, you take special care to see that all due procedures are followed, and that their guilt is established beyond all doubt before you sentence them. And this, especially when you, personally, are convinced they are guilty.
Without that safeguard, the cause of justice is never served.
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Anu Warrier
October 7, 2015
It was w.r.t what BR had written. The topic ended there.
Umm, no, it doesn’t. If you were talking to Brangan, and I’d managed to insert myself into the conversation, you would be right. When you put your comment out on a comments board, people will refer to what you said earlier, when they are making a broader point about the film as a whole, and something that is related in particular. 🙂
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A
October 7, 2015
“If you were talking to Brangan, and I’d managed to insert myself into the conversation, you would be right. When you put your comment out on a comments board, people will refer to what you said earlier, when they are making a broader point about the film as a whole, and something that is related in particular. 🙂 ”
Ohhkk. There is only one place, the comment section, to ‘talk to BR’. The comment was addressed to him, he wrote back, and it ended. What more do you want. I can’t believe this is what I am writing in for.
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A
October 7, 2015
Quote: Anu Warrior:
“…Consider this: you have been accused of a crime you didn’t commit…”
How is this the start point of reference for the Talwar case. ?
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Ka
October 7, 2015
What was universally missed is the CSA (child sex abuse) angle from coverage. Police and media hinted at how victim was having fun with servant/s! They forgot that she was only 13 and a minor even if roaming butt naked is always the victim to quote Oprah, who was herself abused as minor. Here are two very busy parents and their schedule is mind-boggling, juggling multiple jobs, locations and late night arrival to home from their work. The child is alone with people/persons who are older and in position of power. It doesn’t really have to be servants as in this case and could be family members too but here she was left alone with hemraj, even on the final day of victim’s life. And since someone else has shared their personal story about how they grieved, I could say that I too had a household help figure when I was 14ish whose gaze was not at all healthy and my parents were totally naive and ignorant. Fortunately nothing bad happened as I did have a parent who was around ALWAYS (and the person soon departed to their village). But I shudder to think what could have happened had that not been the case! Of course at this point everything is conjecture in this sad case and no one knows the truth but the shock if mom went to bedroom to turn on the internet and saw something that was shocking.
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Madan
October 7, 2015
Amazing that people would rather criminal cases not be reopened based on evidence (or a verdict delivered with inadequate evidence) but don’t seem to mind the Supreme Court repudiating done and dusted contracts going back years in the name of anti-corruption and probity (which by the way is absolutely terrible for the business environment because it shows the govt and judiciary both as bodies that cannot be relied on). Yeshhh, I love my India! This doesn’t stop with the Talvar case either; even in the Afzal Guru case, the appearance of justice being done seemed to count for more than whether the death sentence was really called for in the case in question. And no, I am not a bleeding heart liberal. But I am not a Times Now conservative either. This country needs to get a grip and get its fundas cleared… ASAP.
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Ram Murali
October 7, 2015
“There is only one place, the comment section, to ‘talk to BR’. ”
A: You know, BR has an e-mail as well. There’s a “Contact” button at the top of the homepage that lists his e-mail. If you are so intolerant of reading other people’s perspectives (other than BR’s), it might be a better idea for you to just send him an e-mail and see if he responds. That way, none of us will be privy to your conversation. I have to agree with Anu Warrier (italics intentional) that a comments section is meant for people wanting to share and hear – in a respectful, tolerant manner – varied perspectives even when loosely related to what BR wrote about in his post(s).
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olemisstarana
October 7, 2015
A:
What Anu WarriEr said (not WarriOr).
Is this the first time you’ve commented here? I only ask because the level of defensiveness in response to an open thread conversation seems a little unnecessary. In the future if you really want us to admire your back and forth with BR and not say a word in response, consider tagging it as such. Also please note, we may not respect your wishes, but your defensiveness might have more context.
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olemisstarana
October 7, 2015
A: I would also like to gently draw your attention to the fact that in your previous comment to Anu Warrier, you responded to her response to ANOTHER commenter, SM. I hope they don’t mind too much.
And here is my response to your response to her response to SM (apologies all along the chain) – she created a hypothetical, and then applied it to the possibility of the Talwars fitting in to this hypothetical. Her starting point was a hypothetical, not the Talwars themselves. Even if she is positing that the Talwars are innocent, she can. How is your starting point that they aren’t? (I am assuming from the context of your comments that that is your starting point.
Also, Anu – sorry for stepping in and “Olemisstarana”splaining your comments. This is way too juicy and my Keurig just died.
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Anu Warrier
October 7, 2015
Quote: Anu Warrior:
“…Consider this: you have been accused of a crime you didn’t commit…”
How is this the start point of reference for the Talwar case. ?
It was a general ‘you’. And I missed an ‘IF. If you (general ‘you’) have been accused of a …., wouldn’t you fight to get the case reopened? Or would you be happy to spend your life in jail for a crime you didn’t commit? So, IF the Talwars are innocent (and there’s enough doubt cast on their guilt), why is it so wrong, so redundant, so worrying that a film based on that premise may cause public opinion to push for the case to be reopened?
I’m arguing that your criticism of the film seems to be that VB’s slant in the film – towards the innocence of the parents – may cause the case to be reopened. And I’m asking why is it such a bad thing? If guilt is not proven, then there’s a chance they may be innocent? Or is that too hard to fathom? A case of give a dog a bad name and hang him?
As far as responding to your response to BR goes, again – it does not ‘end’ because you think (or say) it does. Anyone is free to respond to your comment to him because that is the very nature of the comment boards. See, this response is to you – I’m quoting you. But anyone who is reading here, is free to take my response to you, and agree or disagree with it. If you really want your response to be ‘the end’ then you cannot post it on a public comment board and expect it to be so. Once a statement is out in public domain, it is open to being picked upon (and apart).
You, of course, are free to disagree with anything and everything I say, and even to not respond to any further comments on your response. As am I. 🙂
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punit
October 7, 2015
Utkal @ no problem with VB or any one trying their best to re open the case, to prove that Talwars are not guilty or lobby to get them next Nobel prize. I don’t give a damn. But they do not stop at that! they using their resources try their level best to implicate another set of people in this crime. my problem lies here.
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Rahul
October 7, 2015
A , the internet is going to be a difficult place for you.
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olemisstarana
October 7, 2015
Punit:
1. In response to you equating Vishal Bharadwaj and Meghna Gulzar’s Talvar with Nazi Goebbels – sometimes words do fail me – have an emoticon instead… and then this ಠ_ಠ
2.You say the case against the servants is ridiculously flimsy as well. Ok. I say the case against the Talwars is laughable. Can you identify ONE difference here? (HINT: Talwars in prison, servants in the wind.)
Said it before, will say it again – this is a commercial, non-documentary movie, and the director, writer has every right to cast the story in whatever light they choose. If a movie is made with the servants being falsely accused and put in prison, whatever my personal opinion may be, I would not go about comparing the movie makers to North Korean style propagandists… I think. I would also be very protective of such a movie being made, and the rights to free speech of the movie makers.
Why do you have such a low opinion of the audience?
“The movie is showing as if the of the 1st CBI team was the one doing true investigation while second team was just enacting farce. Again a grand visual propaganda with effective employment of Irrfan Khan and his acting. i mean between Irrfan and the other chap ( second CBI team lead) audience will automatically go with Irrfan!! The movie gives a feeling that the case was concrete solid against servants was the justice was just round the corner but the bad guy came with and spoilt everything. I repeat nothing can be further from truth.”
Honestly, even if this stupid, indiscriminate, thumb-sucking monolithic audience responds in this manner, how does this affect anything in the larger picture? Do you honestly believe the Talwars will be released because of this audience thinks Irrfan is the good guy and therefore the earth revolves around the moon?
I have been following this case as it moved through the docket. Being away from the media circus has insulated me from the storm of Kafkaesque speculation that is the coverage of this case. I have, however, read through almost all the case documents available in the public domain for a comparative criminal law project and form my opinions based on that reading.
The prosecutions case is a farce – based on that alone, the Talwars should have been cleared. Because, as I mentioned earlier in this discussion, the burden of proof is on the prosecution, and this being a criminal case, and not a civil one, the burden is heavy – beyond a reasonable doubt. That standard was not met by the prosecution.
You know that whole concept “innocent until proven guilty” – this is not just a shibboleth but in the current climate of excessive media speculation, the words seem to have lost meaning. But without this, the prosecution could have and often does get away with – literally – murder.
I do wish the outrage some of the commenters here feel about “wasted resources” and “unnecessary revisitations” of the Talwar’s case was also reserved for the many nameless whose cases were won by lazy prosecutors after a high conviction rate and will never be subjects of such debates. At the end of the day, whoever is found guilty for this tragedy, the fact remains that the criminal justice system in India is a cesspool of incompetence. Even if one disagrees completely with the slant in the movie, shouldn’t it be lauded for attempting to address this incompetence?
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olemisstarana
October 7, 2015
@Punit: By resources you mean wielding a pen and exercising the right to free speech and creativity, correct? Or are they doing other things we don’t know about like bribing prosecutors and hiring detectives and starting signature campaigns?
Plus, this absolute distaste you have for the “Talwar camp” trying to defend itself and trying to create an alternate theory. How dare they try and prove their own innocence…?
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SM
October 7, 2015
Brangan: If we take the film the wrong way, it is not his fault. It’s ours.
On a theoretical level and in even a semi-ideal world and, I completely agree. However, I am having a hard time agreeing to it when we are living in a diametrically opposite world. Do we simply discard the diametrically opposite ground realities?
Brangan: An artist may know all this, but he cannot be thinking about all this while making the movie, which is a personal expression …
So you are clearly aligning yourself with the freedom for personal expression. It (freedom for personal expression) should not even be cautioned (even by self) on account of anything? Does it not feel like taking it to other extremes?
For the sake of closure, in your opinion, what should be the relationship between art (especially movie given its impact) and ground realities (Incidental)?
Between what is your take on the movie “Party” by Govind Nihalani which takes a point of view something along the lines of “Everything is in reference to something and art is in reference to people/society’ and expects(even demands) more responsibility and participation from artists.
Anu: You, for example, are most upset that he even dared to suggest that the Talwars may be innocent.
You are putting more emotions than I intended to put in my comment 🙂
Anu: Where I draw the line – personally – is in your (or anyone else) saying that VB and Gulzar had no right to say what they did, the way they said it, because by doing so, they are going to help reopen the case and it is a waste of resources.
Again, your are putting way too much emotion in my comment. I never said that “VB and Gulzar has no right …”. In fact I am not even saying anything they should do. I am wondering if it would not make more sense for them to exercise more caution, given the ground realities. I brought up re-opening the case because these are the practical problems that might come up.
Anu: You do not put a person in prison or sentence him because you think he /she did it. When it is a question of a human life, you take special care to see that all due procedures are followed, and that their guilt is established beyond all doubt before you sentence them.
But again you are making the assumption (probably made up your mind) that all the due procedure were not followed and the whole system messed up. A side effect that I mentioned – re-opening of case, which wastes judiciary resource and hence another case which could have gone for trial wont go now – is also impacting another human life. No?
Hypothetical situation: Lets say VB makes a movie showing parents butchered both of them in the most brutal way and portrays them as psychopaths (can be easily done). Some public petitioner gets excited by this; the case re-opens; judge has seen the same movie; parents are sentenced to be ….
Will you be OK? In an ideal world, people would not do this because they know its a movie. But the world where we are living in, behaves in a diametrically opposite way where movie shapes up the general emotion and opinions of our society. Now, if I am a director, should I feel more comfortable exercising caution or should I align myself with artistic freedom and freedom of self-expression . This is the general question I am trying to get at?
Anu: Tomorrow, if you decide to write an op-ed piece claiming that their perspective is wrong, I’ll defend your right to say it.
Thanks for the support but as an author (if I know the impact my piece can have), should I sometimes exercise caution (especially if I can not be sure myself about the opinion I am going to make) or go for it without giving a s***. Although, op-ed piece is not a fictional story and hence different from movie so we are comparing apples and oranges.
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olemisstarana
October 8, 2015
SM: I have to say, both your comments here are very fertile fields – just bursting forth with wtf’s.
You remind me of the the outraged mothers of America slapping parental advisory stickers on rap music albums because any exposure to ideas that did not gel with their white-picket-fence mentality was undesirable.
In response to the first comment and questions you ask – take this to the logical extreme. Every movie can impact some people in ridiculous ways. Who gets to decide how much is too much? Further, shouldn’t “sensitive topics” be absolutely fair game for film makers? From what you say, you don’t support governmental banning, and you don’t want to ban directors from making hard hitting movies on sensitive topics. Then what is it you are in favor of? Self-censorship to snip works of creative fiction down into facsimiles of your (SM’s) opinion? Because I guarantee you there will be someone else who will find this facsimile offensive to their “ground realities.”
Again. This is not a documentary. NOT that documentaries are reality undiluted themselves, but that is a rant for another time. From all the movie publicity done, the interviews, the film makers own their bias and are not shy to admit that there has been some serious miscarriage of justice, so what? Also, about reopening the case – it has been pointed out over and over again the case appeal was pending already. Yes there are beaucoup cases pending everywhere, why isn’t your outrage directed there?
Your second comment was pretty much a complete exercise in tone policing. Fine, you were not SO stridently against VB’s choice, and you don’t care THAT much about the case reopening. Whatever.
What are these ground realities you speak of? What practical problems are going to be thrown up by this movie, seeing that the appeal was already pending?
About “But again you are making the assumption (probably made up your mind) that all the due procedure were not followed and the whole system messed up. A side effect that I mentioned – re-opening of case, which wastes judiciary resource and hence another case which could have gone for trial wont go now – is also impacting another human life. No?”
Even if what you say is 100% right, it does not stop any movie maker from creating, movie making etc. (GOD I know I sound like a broken record here)… but yes, the appeal was already pending, yadda yadda yadda.
In response to your Hypo – I am responding for myself, not Anu – IF this were the case AND it were so easy to reopen a case in this manner and there was enough support to do so, then DESPITE my personal opinion, then YES, reopen the damn case, AS LONG AS the prosecution and the defense do their job, everyone gets a fair day in court etc. From my technical knowledge of the case – in previous comments I mentioned that I was thankfully insulated from the later media coverage – the existing prosecutorial case does not check any of those boxes.
So yes, if Madhur Bhandarkar made this hypothetical movie, I would allow my wallet to do the talking and not go see it, but would I petition and demand that he self-censor himself… no. I do not condition my support of the freedom of other people’s speech, creativity and opinions based on whether or not I find such speech, creativity and opinion palatable or not.
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olemisstarana
October 8, 2015
About the appeals system – I find it very hard to believe that you have an unlimited appeal allowance – i.e. if you aren’t happy you can keep appealing. Is this true for both the prosecution and the defense? Shouldn’t there be a basis for appeal? I understand the case is pending now in the Allahabad High Court, but I can’t find any documents related to the appeal – I understand this is probably not in public domain right now.
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Anu Warrier
October 8, 2015
But again you are making the assumption (probably made up your mind) that all the due procedure were not followed and the whole system messed up.
This is fast becoming a me-against-everyone-else debate. 🙂
I’m not making an ‘assumption’ that due procedures were not followed. From the coverage of the case and the documents that are there in public domain, it is very clear that due procedure was not followed. Enough has been written and confirmed about the sheer bungling at the crime scene. But no, I have not ‘made up my mind’ about anything. Because I. Just. Do. Not. Know. Nor, apparently, does anyone else. So, at least to me, it is fine that someone presents a view of how things could have been, with a slant towards the defendants being innocent. Why not? They could be.
A side effect that I mentioned – re-opening of case, which wastes judiciary resource and hence another case which could have gone for trial wont go now – is also impacting another human life. No?
See, this is what I don’t get! If it were your relatives in jail, and you believed they were innocent, wouldn’t you be fighting tooth and nail to get the case re-opened? So because if this case may be reopened, some other case will not go to trial, these people should just sit back and spend the rest of their lives in jail? Really?
What makes you think that the defendant in ‘some other case’ is more worthy of having his case come to court than these people? That somehow, because their case has already been heard, and they have been sentenced, they should just accept it as their due? Would you, if you were in their place, and you felt you were innocent? Would it matter to you if I came to you and said, ‘Oh, reopening your case would be a waste of judiciary resources. It doesn’t matter if you’re innocent or as guilty as hell. You are stopping someone else from having his day in court. You don’t have the right to open the case again.’?
Secondly, who is to stop another film-maker, say Ram Gopal Verma, for instance, from making another movie that shows the parents as the murderers? Does that make that perspective ‘reality’? No, it is just another way of looking at things.
Again, the point I’m trying to make is that no one is going to reopen a case because Vishal Bhardwaj said so. If public opinion tilts that way because of the movie, it still is not a guarantee that the case will be reopened. But if it does, if they can actually make a push to solve a cold case, and to bring the perpetrators to justice (and they could be teh Talwars, after all) – whoever they may be – then I would say it is a triumph for art.
I agree that art comes with responsibility. But here, an alternate viewpoint has been presented; things could be another way too. It’s not as if VB and Gulzar are the first to make that claim. The ending is left open because that is all they can do. They are not conclusively saying, oh, arrest the servants, the parents are innocent. But to ask ‘Are the parents really guilty? Couldn’t it have happened this way instead?’ – I don’t see why that is such a horrible thing to do.
@olemisstarana: grin Sit beside me, take a deep breath, and relax. (Offering choice of beverage.) I’ve just finished my quota of vishesh tippani for a month.
@Brangan, my apologies. Once again.
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sirishaditya
October 8, 2015
What an brilliant film. You’re right, the climax discussion scene is a masterstroke. The fact that all of this is based on true events is helpful because there’s no other way we would’ve been convinced by the characters, each one with their own set of motivations and conveniences. What could indeed have been an “open-and-shut-case” hadn’t the police been so apathetic, ended up being the most spoken public scandal of the decade.
The apathetic middle-class of this country woke up with a jolt when the news channels were blaring about this case non-stop but being as meek and distracted as we usually are, it didn’t take us long to look out for more entertaining news soon enough. Like many a wide-eyed teenager, I once believed that art could transform people and truly save the world. But despite this film’s fantastic portrayal of film craft ( which is all the more ironic because it spectacularly showcases the lack of conviction and prudence of our investigative system ), I’m not sure if any of this is going to affect us deeply and make us think. We simply don’t care- not about the world, not about the society and not about ourselves as individuals.
Coming back to the film, its one of the best in the genre I’ve seen, and with a little more directorial panache, it would’ve entered the realm of surreal and been truly Kafkaesque. The most obvious choice for this material would be, ofcourse, David Fincher but I’m wondering how someone like Dibakar Banerjee would’ve made the film- with his sardonic wit and more nuanced characterizations.
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A
October 8, 2015
Quote Rahul:
“A , the internet is going to be a difficult place for you.”
Er, why?
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olemisstarana
October 8, 2015
Regarding my appeals comment above, never mind – I have spent several hours today reading up about the system, and while I am no less gobsmacked that this is how it is, I am definitely slightly better educated.
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Madan
October 8, 2015
FWIW, I don’t think making films about a matter that is sub judice is on (i.e Talvar case is in Allahabad High Court, it has NOT been closed). If politicians try to slow down proceedings in the upper courts, do signature campaigns, candelight vigils, whatever. But strictly speaking, commenting on a matter that is still pending in the courts or calling a verdict delivered by a court outright wrong in public without following the proper legal procedure is a no no. Of course, from time to time, the courts themselves look the other way and not just in India; Bob Dylan’s Hurricane is another example of this. Because the courts are not perfect and the judges are fully cognizant of this. So it is a grey area; but my point, in short, is freedom of expression is not absolute. Nor should it be. Nobody should be allowed to make films to intentionally defame a person, for instance. What I don’t support is criminal punishment for those who fall foul of the caveats to freedom of expression. There should only be civil liabilities imposed. Saying something malicious can cause hurt indirectly to a person but it is not a crime in the narrow sense of the word. Unfortunately, India’s politicians love laws that were dumped by the British themselves in their own country.
And the argument that VB/MG’s Talvar is just a work of fiction is one I find to be too generalised, applying a general catch rule to all and sundry films without looking into the specifics of the instant case. In every interview given by the makers of the film, they talk about the Talvars, the real ones. They have made no bones about the fact that this film explores how the Talvar trial was conducted. This is in the semi-docu mode even if it is not actually shot like a documentary. Just their presenting it as a film outwardly does not convert it into pure fiction. It is not. The makers want you to watch the film in light of the Talvar trial; they are not treating it as a figment of an artist’s fertile imagination, far from it.
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Abhirup
October 8, 2015
I really liked the film. Also, I don’t get all the chest-beating over Vishal Bhardwaj and Meghna Gulzar’s approach to the topic; an author or a director has the inviolable right to present a personal take on unsolved mysteries, be it the Bermuda Triangle or the Aarushi-Hemraj case. ‘Rahasya’, a movie that released in the previous year based on the same case, showed the parents as the culprits. This shows that they are not, or rather, that it’s unlikely that they were. Indeed, I would say it’s subtler than the aforementioned movie, which clearly said that the parents killed both the daughter and the servant: ‘Talvar’ simply says, “On the basis of the information available, it doesn’t seem very likely that the parents are the killers. The investigators would have done well to consider other possibilities, such as that the servants are involved. Instead, they–the investigators–let their professional rivalries get in the way, and as a result, the mysteries couldn’t be solved.” Seems like a very valid stance to me.
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Abhirup
October 8, 2015
P.S.- In my previous comment, when I say, “This shows that they are not”, the “this” refers to the movie ‘Talvar’.
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lolspeaking
October 8, 2015
What an article! i liked the comments on this thread more than the review, so diverse 🙂
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MANK
October 8, 2015
It’s most unfortunate that people are more interested in discussing the actual case rather than this terrific film. There is so much to discuss about the virtues of this film rather than getting all worked up about the intention of filmmakers in making this film
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jithu
October 8, 2015
how do you make a film that is the director’s baby ? i don’t know much about film craft, hence this question.
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olemisstarana
October 8, 2015
@ Madan: How is making a film about something that is subjudice any more problematic than the overly-sensationalized, barely truthful, highly speculative form of journalism that is so common with cases like this? I would argue the latter are far far more damaging, and definitely eligible for the kind of civil penalties you are in favor of. Plus, if something is going to be off bounds while it is subjudice, then given the kind of pace our legal system is used to maintaining (notwithstanding other intentional delaying tactics that may be employed), this becomes a gag order for decades.
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Anand Krishnajeevan
October 9, 2015
I think Badlapur and Talwar were the two movies which depicted how mysteriously human minds work. In Talwar you could see people judging the couple based on their reactions at the time of their daughter’s death. The first scene set it up brilliantly. That reaction from Konkana was priceless when she breaks the news about her daughter’s murder to the servant. It was so unconventional and leaves us stunned. Badlapur’s beginning also had the same impact on me. Hats off to VB and Meghna for pulling off such a wonderful film. the only issue I had was with Tabu’s character. i felt it was forced into the script because of their personal equation with Tabu. I believe its a classic case of “Venkat Prabhu syndrome”.
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Ravi K
October 9, 2015
The way the film presents the story, everyone was hoping to pin it on the parents, just so they could say they solved the case, which they made out to be an honor killing, which makes an already eyecatching story even moreso.
There’s no clear evidence as to who killed Shruthi. The narco tests come closest to conclusive evidence. I have no idea if narco tests are scientifically valid IRL, but as presented in the film, the fact that servants stories dovetail, and the fact that the parents do not admit anything during the narco test heavily imply that the servants did it.
The one action on the parents’ part that muddies the waters is how quick they were to point to Khempal as the murderer. Now, In one context this could mean they did it and were setting him up, but they may have leapt to that conclusion because he was the most obvious suspect, since there was no break-in.
The film does lean towards the parents being innocent, but just barely. However, the grander theme of the film is about the unknowable nature of the truth when there are several versions of what happened and every bit of information (or “information”) leads to more questions. It’s also about the assumptions we make about how people behave, how people think they’re supposed to behave in certain situations, and how we judge them based on these assumptions. Not just in real life but while watching movies, including this one.
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KayKay
October 9, 2015
MANK/Abhirup, couldn’t agree more. As I mentioned in the Papanasam thread, I can’t believe the responsibility poor Art is compelled to shoulder.
It’s a Vishal Freaking Bharadwaj movie! If it was possible, I’d pre-order the DVD today!
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Prasad
October 9, 2015
MANK
“It’s most unfortunate that people are more interested in discussing the actual case rather than this terrific film”
I understaned your point but don’t you think this can be very well expected? This case was so much sensationalized that Arnab’s and Sardesai’s of the world got their max TRP ratings out of it and what not!. So obviously people are expected to take sides, make judgmental comments when they see the movie which I don’t think is very unnatural.
Just for a e.g someone makes a movie on “Godhra train incident with whodunnit details” or “How Subhash Chandra bose was killed” do you think all of them will be only talking about the sharp dialogues, deft camera angles or editing of the movie? No right!!!!!
Again am not comparing this case to those events but just to give an example!
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punit
October 9, 2015
@olemisstarana by they I mean the people associated with the film. Talwars has all right to defend themselves in court. what I am against is the films with vested agenda who use propaganda methods to put the blame on others. Film shows that investigation done by law enforcements agencies were shoddy and below standard. we all agree.. even CBI were admitting that they do not have enough evidences against Talwar couple and were ready to file closure report. IT WAS THE COURT WHO directed them to begin the trial on the basis of available evidences. so far so good. Problem begins when film want to make us believe that a bunch of servants were absolute guilty and use all classical propaganda tools available
The Officer ( Arun Kumar) who was handling the team in real was simply sent back to his cadre after his tenure was ended. note the emotional chutiyapa of betrayal, conspiracy and resignation shown in the movie to make the point that he was removed to shield the Servants by the new CBI Director !!! In fact the new CBI director was appointed in Aug 2008 while Arun Kumar was transferred in june/july 2008!! so there goes the entire angle to CBI director saving his Police IG classmate and forcing the colleague of Irfan khan to betray him.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Deputation-of-CBI-officer-probing-Noida-case-ends/articleshow/3186495.cms?referral=PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashwani_Kumar_(police_officer)
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The Ghost Who Walks
October 9, 2015
Brangan: If we take the film the wrong way, it is not his fault. It’s ours.
On a theoretical level and in even a semi-ideal world and, I completely agree. However, I am having a hard time agreeing to it when we are living in a diametrically opposite world. Do we simply discard the diametrically opposite ground realities?
This is really tangential, but this reminds of the furor a couple of years ago about a few cartoons in school text books which appeared to be politically aware (Class IX or X, if I recall correctly). One of the arguments set forward in support of removing such cartoons is that the teachers of today aren’t equipped to explain the nuances of such cartoons to students, and therefore might give them wrong ideas. In addition to not giving enough credit to the audience, it also starts a slippery slope where each generation of teachers/students become more closeted.
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Anand krishnajeevan
October 9, 2015
What I learnt from the recent cop films in Bollywood is that only Baji Rao Singham can maintain perfect worklife balance.
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Abhirup
October 9, 2015
I saw the movie again, and I shall repeat this: it simply presents the possibility that the parents are innocent. The possibility. It doesn’t deliver a verdict in their favour. So, all the chest-beating is confounding.
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Madan
October 9, 2015
How is making a film about something that is subjudice any more problematic than the overly-sensationalized, barely truthful, highly speculative form of journalism that is so common with cases like this
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Abhirup
October 9, 2015
“I was only trying to make the point that some of the arguments in this thread seem to be too one sided.. “films should be about absolutely anything the artist desires to” or “it’s the audience’s fault if they react to the real events based on the film”. ”
There’s nothing “one-sided” about them. A director should of course have the freedom to make a film on any topic he decides on, and some crime (supposedly in emulation of something seen onscreen) committed by one or two people among the millions who have seen a movie should not be considered the movie’s fault either. If one doesn’t like a movie, he/she is free to make a movie in response to that, write articles expressing disapproval of it, lampoon it, or ask others to boycott it. Calling for bans, setting fires to theatres and suchlike are absolutely uncalled for.
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SM
October 10, 2015
The Ghost Who Walks,
I agree with what you are saying. If we start supporting censorship in any form, there is this danger of this thing gradually getting worse as you pointed out correctly (each generation getting more closeted etc). Also what Madan pointed out above is also a very valid problem (that they are misused by govts to drown rational voices).
Don’t get me wrong here, I am very cognizant of the problems that any form of censorship creates (especially something that is forced from outside).
However, I am not convinced that going to the other extreme that personal expression and artistic freedom are the holy grail of all virtues in a society makes sense as well. If nothing else, it sounds naive, impractical and dreamy eyed to me, especially given the well known FACT that it impacts people in ways which can not be called rational (See my first comment where I talked about irrational fears of traveling to hinterlands of Haryana etc based on recent portrayals; Bachchan’s long shirt became a fashion statement etc).
“Its audience’s fault” – I am not sure what it even means. Who defined how an audience should behave? An audience should treat movie just as movie is a purely theoretical concept that I am pretty sure never actually happened in the whole history of world cinema (Battleship Potemkin, the most influential propaganda film was made in 1920’s almost 100 years ago) What we have is a certain known fact that audience behave in a certain way. And we should act based on what is happening not on what we consider theoretically should happen.
Now, its obvious that any form of external censorship is not desirable because it is very difficult to define “what is right and where to draw the line” at an absolute level? So, that’s why I suggested that we leave the judgement to the makers who should exercise caution (please don’t exaggerate this with any extremes of self-censorship).
An artist does not exist in a void. Each one of us exercise caution in our day to day living while we are interacting with each other (Euphemisms is not an alien concept to any of us). Nothing demeaning about it. So why not a film-maker?
Does the film exercise due caution. I am tilting towards no, that’s all.
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Abhirup
October 10, 2015
“So, that’s why I suggested that we leave the judgement to the makers who should exercise caution”
To what extent should the caution be exercised, though? How much caution is enough caution? Somebody may make a movie after what he/she considers enough of careful considerations–rewriting the script, reading more books and looking up more information about the topic of the film, consulting people who can provide more insight and information, leaving out a scene or a dialogue because it may cause troubles, adding a scene or a dialogue to make something more understandable–and some people may still feel that not enough caution has been exercised. So should a filmmaker live in perpetual fear of having upset somebody out of the many millions who are going to see his movie?
As for how much of audience behaviour is impacted by movies, I have never seen much to bolster the notion that people, at large, take their cues, especially for criminal activities, from onscreen activities. Yeah, there are odd instances, such as that of a boy who stabbed one of his teachers after seeing hrithik roshan do the same in the terrible ‘agneepath’ remake, but, as Mr. Rangan has said in one of his articles, for every person like that, there are many others who saw the movie and didn’t kill or maim anyone. So, I would say the responsibility of the boy’s deed lies with him. Putting the blame on the movie doesn’t make any sense as far as I am concerned.
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Madan
October 10, 2015
Calling for bans, setting fires to theatres and suchlike are absolutely uncalled for.
The question as to the ethics of making a film on a matter that is sub judice is a very valid one and I will not have you trying to shout down, bully people who raise it. You are not that strong, however that you may harbour illusions to that effect.
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Abhirup
October 10, 2015
“My dear friend”
The pompous condescension inherent in those three words is reason enough to not take seriously the rest of your comment, but I shall forge ahead nonetheless.
“the first person who talked about calling for bans or setting fires to theatres in this thread is you; I used Ctrl F to ascertain that, so don’t second guess me on it.”
I knew it even without using Ctrl F. So?
“I don’t find any difference, intellectually, between extremists like Shri Togadia on the one hand and hyperventilative liberals like you in the sense that nuance and detail seem to fly right past both groups and agitation seems to be the favoured response from both sides.”
There’s nothing very nuanced or detailed about your statement “I was only trying to make the point that some of the arguments in this thread seem to be too one sided.. “films should be about absolutely anything the artist desires to” or “it’s the audience’s fault if they react to the real events based on the film”.” If not concurring with that makes me the same as Togadia in your view, I can merely shrug and say, “Be it so.”
“That is detrimental to any reasonable discussion on a topic like this.”
Nobody is trying to put an end to the discussion. Discussion, I must inform you, involves people, often with different views on a topic, speaking to each other and expressing those views. You stated yours, I stated mine, others here have stated theirs, and (so far) have done it, mostly, without any name-calling or “shut-up”-s. So what are you so upset about?
“I do give that for the moment the extremists favour violence and the angry liberals violent argument which includes shouting down people who might otherwise be sympathetic to their position.”
To repeat myself, nobody is trying to shout you down, unless you count the expression of a different viewpoint to be shouting others down. If you expect every person here to write comments that express unreserved support for your views, you are going to have to lead a very sad life.
“The question as to the ethics of making a film on a matter that is sub judice is a very valid one and I will not have you trying to shout down, bully people who raise it. You are not that strong, however that you may harbour illusions to that effect.”
I have no illusions about my strength. You would do well to not have any about yourself being some cornered but gallant fighter.
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Madan
October 10, 2015
Discussion, I must inform you, involves people, often with different views on a topic, speaking to each other and expressing those views
There’s nothing very nuanced or detailed about your statement “I was only trying to make the point that some of the arguments in this thread seem to be too one sided.”
To repeat myself, nobody is trying to shout you down, unless you count the expression of a different viewpoint to be shouting others down.
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Abhirup
October 10, 2015
“Discussion also involves replying in context and not intentionally bringing in an overly dramatic angle to raise the temperature.”
There was no attempt to “raise the temperature.” You know as well as I do that calls for banning movies and burning theatres happen often enough in India, and all of it is done in the name of “this movie hurt sentiments” and crap like that. I never said that you do it, so am still a bit mystified as to what you are so upset about. I think that a movie deserves to be made the way the filmmaker wants to make, and allowed to run in the theatres without threats, and that calls for “exercising caution” are often the beginnings of what culminate in calls for ban (if you think this is me trying to “raise the temperature” again, I don’t give a damn).
” I have seen you do this before and know full well that it is a favoured tactic of yours and have no compunctions about calling you out on it.”
I don’t think I said anything, here or elsewhere, that’s nefarious enough to be “called out on”, but hey, if you think you have done something heroic by getting all bristly at what I said (because it isn’t along the lines of “I concur completely”), feel free to feel good.
“Nobody said Talvar needs to be banned or that it is right to damage cinema halls where it is being shown. You still brought it up because it allows you to shift the discussion to a level which you are more comfortable with (perhaps the only level!). ”
Nobody said it about ‘Talvar’, but plenty have said so about other films, so I don’t think I have said anything very improbable. There were calls to ban ‘Rahasya’, the previous movie made on the Aarushi-Hemraj case. Is it all that unlikely that the same may happen with ‘Talvar’, under some pretext or the other?
“So allow me the opportunity to inform you that discussion involves bringing forth and ruminating on different points of view, not verbal sparring to somehow win over the other participants in the discussion.”
Heed thyself.
“And that is not everything that I said.”
The rest that you said is but an elaboration of the quoted lines.
“I interpret deliberately dishonest and unduly aggressive argumentation when there is no provocation as an attempt to shout people down.”
If you detect aggression where none exists, I can’t help you. I found no “provocation” in your statements, I simply did not concur, and said as much, and gave my reasons. If you find that so agonizing, excuse me for not apologizing.
“When nobody has talked about banning the film, there is no need to bring that up.”
There is every need to bring it up, given how often it happens in this country, and I shall continue to bring it up, regardless of your disapproval. Feel free not to reply to me if it doesn’t suit you.
“You do it because you know it shifts the discussion into an unpleasant track and thereby can shut down more exploration of the ethics angle.”
Explore away, nobody is stopping you.
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Madan
October 10, 2015
There is every need to bring it up, given how often it happens in this country
The rest that you said is but an elaboration of the quoted lines.
I simply did not concur, and said as much, and gave my reasons
Explore away, nobody is stopping you.
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SM
October 10, 2015
Abhirup: To what extent should the caution be exercised, though? How much caution is enough caution?
A very reasonable question. And in short, I don’t claim to have any absolutely well articulated answer to it. But lets take a few examples
a) NH10 uses honor killing as its backdrop: this is something which could have been absolutely and easily avoided. The story was about this woman and her husband who meet some criminals on their journey and get attacked by them and how they deal with it. I would have certainly used some other backdrop (wont have made much difference to the movie). Again, don’t get me wrong. I am neither in support of honor killings (obviously) nor do I deny the existence of this barbaric practice. And directors must address these topics in their movies. However, to make sweeping generalizations is simply irresponsible.
b) A similar kind of scene is there in Tanu Weds Manu Returns. Could have been easily avoided.
So what I am saying is if you ask me to clearly articulate “what is the boundary of caution”, I wont be able to clearly articulate it, however, when its not exercised, it is quite apparent. Going back to the analogy I drew in my previous comment, about people exercising caution in their day to day lives. Is their any well defined rule in our day to day social dealings. No. Right? But we are very keenly aware of it when the boundary is crossed. It depends upon situation, timing, topic at hand, people involved etc.
Should a filmmaker live in perpetual FEAR of having UPSET somebody, you ask? No. But he should most definitely live in perpetual ASSESSMENT of each and every choice he makes as a filmmaker and how it will IMPACT people. And this is nothing out of ordinary a filmmaker is doing. Each one of us is doing this (taking responsibility and assessing our work wrt. to our customers) in our profession. A filmmaker does not live in a void and lets not put artists on some kind of a pedestal. His output (film) impacts people’s opinions and emotions and he must be cognizant of this fact and assess his work wrt to it. “I will say and make whatever” in the name of self expression and artistic freedom and “people are stupid if they don’t understand me or get me wrong” is at best naive and at worst plain irresponsible.
Now lets talk about “movie and its impact on audience”. Frankly, I am not worried about “somebody killing other people after seeing a movie ” type of events. I am more concerned about subtle and subconscious level of impact movies have. Do you think the kind of portrayal woman have in our movies does not have any impact on our society? Woman are either portrayed as an object of desire or a goddess of virtue. What they are never portrayed as are human beings. So the movies are either perpetuating desire for woman or hanging them on the altar as a self sacrificing creature. Do you think this does not have any direct/indirect relationship with the way woman are treated as well how man-woman relationship pan out in our society? I emphatically don’t think so.
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Madan
October 10, 2015
What they are never portrayed as are human beings.
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Madan
October 10, 2015
It is also worth pointing out that no sooner had Piku put the subject of casual sex on the table did some people seek to draw a link between that and that controversial Deepika Padukone ad, the my choice one. I think India needs to decide whether it wants to grow up and then enter the cinema hall. Just because one has the right to get offended doesn’t mean one should never miss an opportunity to do so but that is increasingly the way things are in India.
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Abhirup
October 10, 2015
“Has there been any call from anyone, even from the right wing, to ban THIS film?”
No, but the issue here is not of this one film only, either. The issue is that of the right to make any film without demands of “exercising caution” being imposed by any outside forces. You said that the argument that “films should be about absolutely anything the artist desires to” is “one-sided.” I said it’s not, that filmmakers ought to have that freedom in its entirety.
“But are you not being way alarmist here?”
Given how often “ban this, ban that” happens in India, I would not reply in the affirmative.
“Please, there are far more terrible things happening in this country, the northern part of it specifically, than a call for a ban on Talvar.”
This thread is about ‘Talvar’, though, so discussion about it is likely to get priority over those “far more terrible things.”
“And now that it’s already a week into its run, it’s very, very unlikely to be banned. “
Demands to ban movies have often risen days after their release. I remember that happening in India during the release of ‘the da vinci code’. If ‘Talvar’ has managed to avoid that fate so far, that’s a stroke of good fortune, rather than the possibility of ban being remote.
“What you said in your original reply to my comment had absolutely nothing to do with what I had written.”
Yeah, it did. You said there ought to be “safeguards” regarding what a film can or cannot show; I said that such “safeguards” are a hindrance to creative liberty, and calls for them often precede demands for outright bans.
“Far be it for me to stop you from ranting if you wish to, but you have no right to quote me on it as if I said anything about a ban.”
I never said you did, either.
“Reasons again, which have nothing to do with anything I said at all.”
They do, and I have explained so above.
“Er, I don’t need your permission anyway.”
That’s right, you don’t. So go ahead.
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Abhirup
October 10, 2015
SM:
“NH10 uses honor killing as its backdrop: this is something which could have been absolutely and easily avoided. The story was about this woman and her husband who meet some criminals on their journey and get attacked by them and how they deal with it.”
I think ‘NH10’ was meant to be a film about honour killings from the very beginning and not merely a tale about a couple chased by criminals. At least to me, the trailers and the interviews with the director made it clear what the film is going to be on.
“I would have certainly used some other backdrop”
Why? You say you don’t deny that honour killings take place. You also say that you believe in a filmmaker’s right to make a film on them. So why should Navdeep Singh have made his film on something else?
“However, to make sweeping generalizations is simply irresponsible.”
It would be easier to respond to this if you clarify what you mean by “sweeping generalizations.”
“So what I am saying is if you ask me to clearly articulate “what is the boundary of caution”, I wont be able to clearly articulate it, however, when its not exercised, it is quite apparent.”
I am afraid it isn’t, at least not to me. How do you know if and when this “boundary” is crossed, and again, how much of caution is necessary to ensure that it isn’t?
“A filmmaker does not live in a void and lets not put artists on some kind of a pedestal.”
I don’t want to do anything of the sort, but I wonder how is it possible for any filmmaker to assess and predict how his movies are going to impact every member of his audience. The way people interpret movies is up to them; the filmmaker, even after endless considerations, can go only so far in ensuring that people don’t take from his movies messages that were never meant to be conveyed. Somebody may make a thriller about a cop on the trails of a serial killer, for instance, and the serial killer’s onscreen activities may give ideas to a psychotic member of the audience. Heck, I remember a teacher of mine saying, after seeing ‘My Brother Nikhil’, that the movie illustrates the perils of being a homosexual (namely, that it causes AIDS); I hardly need to state that the movie didn’t convey anything of the sort, that it was, in fact, a sympathetic look at a gay couple’s trials and tribulations after one of them is diagnosed as HIV positive. See what I am getting at? The impact a movie may have on one or more viewers is largely beyond the filmmakers’ control. Careful considerations do indeed must go into a film, and I am sure with a lot of filmmakers, it does. There’s still no guarantee that people won’t interpret movies the way they weren’t meant to be.
““I will say and make whatever” in the name of self expression and artistic freedom and “people are stupid if they don’t understand me or get me wrong” is at best naive and at worst plain irresponsible.”
I don’t think so. The moment we try to restrict a filmmaker from making a movie on a preferred topic–that is, the moment we begin to put restrictions on the very first stage of a creative process–we are endangering artistic freedom, and as I have said above, people do often respond to a movie the way the filmmaker could never even have imagined, so putting the blame for that on the film doesn’t make a lot of sense either. Many of our films, right from the 1950s, have scenes of killing. Does that necessarily mean that all our films encourage killing? Or should those be seen as something taking place in a fictional world, not to be emulated? If one or two of the countless people who see the film do emulate it, should the responsibility lie with them, or the film?
“ Do you think the kind of portrayal woman have in our movies does not have any impact on our society? Woman are either portrayed as an object of desire or a goddess of virtue. What they are never portrayed as are human beings. So the movies are either perpetuating desire for woman or hanging them on the altar as a self sacrificing creature.”
I think you are grossly exaggerating here. I can name many movies, recent and old, that do not fit the description you have given. Even for the ones that do fit the description, I wonder to what extent are they to be blamed for crimes against woman. In my experience, poor upbringing is a far likely reason for those–and other–crimes, than any movie. After all, crimes against woman precede the invention of cinema itself, and putting the blame for what people do on movies is not very sensible. This is not to say that the sort of movies you mentioned shouldn’t be criticized. They should be, yeah. Blaming actual crimes on them is a stretch to me, though.
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Madan
October 10, 2015
No, but the issue here is not of this one film only, either. The issue is that of the right to make any film without demands of “exercising caution” being imposed by any outside forces. You said that the argument that “films should be about absolutely anything the artist desires to” is “one-sided.
I said that such “safeguards” are a hindrance to creative liberty, and calls for them often precede demands for outright bans.
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Abhirup
October 11, 2015
“But this film happens to be a good exhibit to prove the limitations with making such an absolute generalisation.”
I don’t think so.
“In practice, there are constraints.”
There shouldn’t be is what I am saying.
“As said before, what if a certain dominant centre right party itself sponsored a film spreading lies about Babri, Mumbai riots etc? Should the mass circulation of such a film then really be allowed? And what if a certain moribund leftist party of eastern India made a film spreading lies about Nandigram and Singur?”
Yeah, I think such movies should be shown, and then discussed and criticized. One has every right to criticize a film, but saying that it should not be allowed to release at all because he/she doesn’t like it is a repressive step. I don’t, for instance, like something like ‘phantom’ or ‘baby’, with their calls to cause mayhem in neighbouring countries in the name of fighting terrorists, but I shall never say that the movies should be banned. The moment you ban one movie under some pretext, others shall find similar pretexts to ban other movies, and cite your decision to say, “If that can be banned for so-and-so reason, then why not ban this too for so-and-so reason?” A third party shall then take its cue and raise similar demands for banning something else, and so it shall continue. I don’t want that, and I shall never support any stance that threatens freedom of expression, even if it is the expression of such views as those that you mentioned.
“Safeguards exist to prevent the misuse of liberty in service of malicious intent.”
Every attempt to constrain liberty is made under that excuse, so it finds no favour with me.
“But any further is not only an utopian dream; the results of such freedom wouldn’t be utopia, just utter chaos and degradation of art itself.”
I see no basis for that bit of soothsaying, so am not going to go along with it.
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Madan
October 11, 2015
Yeah, I think such movies should be shown, and then discussed and criticized.
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Abhirup
October 11, 2015
“So lies should spread, riots should break out and people should die just to uphold absolute artistic freedom?”
That’s scaremongering. One more common excuse for repression: “If we allow this to happen, there shall be chaos.” Have seen it far too often being used to excuse so many forms of repression, there is zero possibility of me falling for it.
“Most of us need a certain amount of order in our lives.”
“Order” here being an euphemism for repression.
“It’s fine if you don’t and believe art is more important than three square meals a day and safety and peace”
I don’t remember denying the necessity of three meals a day, so that part of your comment is irrelevant. As for safety and peace, they have never been threatened by art. Indeed, art has been used over centuries to uphold them.
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Madan
October 11, 2015
That’s scaremongering.
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Abhirup
October 11, 2015
“In a country where it takes one flimsy rumour to start a terrible riot, a propaganda film spreading hate against one community would almost certainly wreck havoc if allowed to be released across the nation.”
More scaremongering, using the precise words foes of liberty invariably use.
“If that is repression, then perhaps so is having traffic lights that ‘stop’ vehicles from moving.”
Stupidest analogy in the history of human civilization.
“You have boxed yourself into a corner with your shrill pro-freedom rhetoric so it’s clear you will go to any absurd extreme to refute what I say.”
The things you say cry out to be refuted.
“So I will stop here, there’s no point in dragging this further.”
Your prerogative.
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Madan
October 11, 2015
More scaremongering, using the precise words foes of liberty invariably use.
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The Ghost Who Walks
October 12, 2015
Don’t get me wrong here, I am very cognizant of the problems that any form of censorship creates (especially something that is forced from outside).
NH10 uses honor killing as its backdrop: this is something which could have been absolutely and easily avoided. The story was about this woman and her husband who meet some criminals on their journey and get attacked by them and how they deal with it. I would have certainly used some other backdrop
It is obviously perfectly fine that you would not have used this backdrop, if you had made the movie. But then it wouldn’t be the same movie would it? Highway might still work at some level, but taking out the child abuse angle would have robbed the move of so much of its heft. If we start avoiding such topics because they are touchy, then what will our movies be about?
Also, is it really fair to expect filmmakers to keep their politics out of the movie, when we can’t keep our politics out of our arguments/discussions etc, as is evident from this thread.
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Abhirup
October 12, 2015
“Well, then, I’d like to see you release an anti Semitist film in America”
Has happened already with ‘Borat’.
“This world that abounds with foes of liberty (LMAO at that expression) but which you still have to live in. “
The world is full of undesirable things; that’s no reason to stop criticizing them.
“Keep it real.”
If “real” means suppressing books, movies, songs and paintings in name of maintaining “order”, then I would rather not do that, thanks.
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Madan
October 12, 2015
Has happened already with ‘Borat’.
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Abhirup
October 12, 2015
“Er, to be clear, I am talking hardcore, not parody.”
“Parody” or not, ‘Borat’ was criticized by multiple parties for not only being anti-Semitic, but also for supposedly decrying Romani people, the people of Kazakhstan, and Arabs. It was banned in many countries, or shown with much of the scenes cut. The people who took these steps did so because they found the movie, to use your words, “blatantly disrespectful” to the aforementioned people. That is an encroachment on liberty. Every ban is enforced by people who think that what is being banned is “blatantly disrespectful” to this or that community (and often, the ones clamouring for the ban don’t even bother to see what they are banning; they merely obey what their leaders say). Moreover, endless debates can occur over what is “parody” and what is “hardcore” (the Charlie Hebdo cartoons are seen by many as “blatantly disrespectful” too). So, if somebody asks for bans because he/she thinks something is “blatantly disrespectful”, he/she is on shaky grounds as it is. Even if something is “blatantly disrespectful”, it’s best to let people see and decry it, rather than acting as their self-appointed representative and banning it through scaremongering. Let’s also remember that griffith made something that is “blatantly disrespectful” to blacks. Banning it has not been necessary to ensure that it is criticized and not treated as authentic portrayal of blacks.
“No further points to make in this discussion, we are not going to see eye to eye, period.”
You have said that once before, and still seem to be unable to let go of me.
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bart
October 12, 2015
“Avana niruththa sollu, naan nirutharen”… Tan ta tan ta tanta doin. Tadoin..
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tonks
October 15, 2015
According to this officer, most of what is shown in the movie is as it happened in reality. I did get the same impression reading the wiki page about the case :
http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Why-would-the-alleged-killer-find-the-murder-weapon-and-hand-it-over-to-investigators-Ex-Aarushi-case-investigator-asks/articleshow/49251408.cms
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olemisstarana
October 15, 2015
Ah, but you see Tonks – reality can be offensive at times, and therefore it should not be portrayed.
Sigh, #sarcasm.
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tonks
October 15, 2015
There’s a fb site with 59k plus likes called “Free the Talwars”.
A dad buying a digital camera for his only daughter as an early birthday present, clicking pictures with her, then murdering her in the middle of the same night and coolly covering up in the light of the morning. There’s something right there in the story that rings false.
I used to think that losing a young child was probably the worst possible thing to happen to a human being. With all the botching up of evidence, the slandering of the entire family in the media and finally the conviction based on flimsy conjecture and circumstantial evidence, we’ve proved that it’s not.
Perhaps its knowing that these things really happened, this movie refuses to leave my mind.
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Rm
November 30, 2015
I watched this film just yesterday. Actually two movies in a single day– Masaan and then Talvar. A Sunday well spent.
The first movie just lets a couple of stories unwind in front of us amidst the backdrop of its various surroundings it captures so subtly.
There is death of a loved one in both the movies. Masaan captured it in a matter of fact manner that it eventually jaded across the canvas of the picture itself it chose to paint.
Talvar on the other hand is as scrutinizing as it could get, not that I am complaining, since that is what it sets about as its objective in the first place.
My companion called the parting scene as ‘milking for an emotion’. I kind of agreed, that scene could have been placed somewhere ahead too. But that would make it a ‘wiping-my-opinion-on-your-face’ courtroom drama that this clearly isn’t. In one way, I think it is even more apt VB chose to keep this scene in the end, in a way as to say – see that bonding? That is from a camera, the untainted truth in plain sight, decide for yourself.
(P.s: I usually read your post in its entirety with its comments again after watching a movie. This post has now grown into humongous proportions from the last time I read it: ) Again, not that I am complaining, this is what makes me a regular to your write-ups here)
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karrvakarela
February 7, 2016
I’m probably one of maybe two people who watched the movie without knowing anything about the real life case it’s based on. It’s really well done, and hits some great high points. Good writing, compelling narrative and tight editing. The actors are all great and I’m particularly enjoying Neeraj Kabi’s film trajectory. He seems to inhabit whatever he chooses to do. (Again, I’m probably one of two people who didn’t like Ship of Theseus but I liked what Neeraj Kabi did there.)
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blurb
August 17, 2016
brangan: Why do you say that this movie is really Vishal Bharadwaj’s baby? I am curious because I don’t see you isolating the efforts of a team very often, no? Especially between the director and the writer? In fact, haven’t you often said (especially after the Kadhal2Kalyanam work) that it is difficult to say who really contributed for what?
Recently caught up with this movie — and I was really looking forward to it ever since I read this review.
But, unfortunately, this is one of those movies for which my “ara-gora” Hindi wasn’t enough. I found it heavy on conversations, and subtle emotions. So if you focus on the subtitles, you miss out on the emotion, and hence the scene. But you (at least, I) do need to focus on the subtitles a LOT.
For a movie like, say, Ki and Ka, I don’t feel the need for too much subtitling because it’s not an “attention-to-detail-is-needed” type movie. (I still need it in some places, like, to fully understand the letter from J. Bachchan) – I can more or less understand what’s going on. I felt this way for Omkara (suththam – it didn’t even sound like Hindi to me), and Ishqiya (they used Sulfate as an expletive?! What was that?).
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tejas
August 18, 2016
Blurb, the expletive was chutiyam sulphate, a wordplay on Sodium or Ammonium Sulphate.
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blurb
August 19, 2016
tejas ok, I’ve never guessed 🙂
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blurb
March 20, 2017
BR, Prakash Belawadi is not CDI Swami. He is CDI Ramshankar Pillai
(see Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talvar_(film))
Swami is the woman who supervises the suspects while under Narco Analysis Test.
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