Spoilers ahead…
I’ll begin with the end. It’s an echo of the Boy-Girl meet-cute, in a plane, and it made me smile for a couple of reasons. One, I am a sucker for rom-com tropes. And two, R Balki, after three tries, finally gets his ending right. Cheeni Kum, Paa and Shamitabh turned hideously overwrought after coasting along gimmicky, lightweight (and it must be said, charming) premises – or maybe we should say that the premises themselves aren’t lightweight, it’s more that Balki’s handling of them is. (Not a judgement. Not everyone has to dive into the deep end.) It was exasperating to see Balki mistrust his gifts for light comedy (as most light-comic filmmakers do), and make a desperate reach for drama, as if to prove he was a “serious” filmmaker. But Ki & Ka is the work of someone comfortable in his own skin. Again, the (gimmicky) premise isn’t lightweight – it’s about gender roles, both prescribed and subverted. But Balki isn’t out to get all Mars-Venus on us. Neither is he getting all Betty Friedan on us. The premise isn’t a placard, a slogan, a message. The premise, to him, is simply the obstacle that every rom-com couple has to surmount. I can imagine a lot of people despising Balki’s sitcom-glibness being trained on an issue so sensitive, but what Ki & Ka lacks in depth, it makes up for in entertainment value. The gender-polarity-reversal gimmick spices up the rom-com predictability. The film is basically an old bottle with new whine.
Speaking of which, we get the scene where Kabir (Arjun Kapoor) sees a glass of wine on a table and quickly slides a coaster under it. This is Balki’s ka, a hunk who’s happy being a househusband while wife Kia (aka ki) goes to work. Meanwhile, she takes her cues from the Newly Married Hindi Film Hero handbook. As Kabir sets down a morning cup of tea, Kia pulls him into bed. A little bit of this goes a long way, and Balki, thankfully, doesn’t stretch it. My favourite touch: Kabir wearing the mangalsutra, its gold gleaming a few inches above his chest hair. Also, the dowry crack at the end. The equality of the sexes extends to their birthdays, which fall on the same day, and to the fact that each of them has a surviving parent of the same gender. Very little of this is as new as Balki seems to think it is. When Kia catches Kabir weeping, he says, rather dramatically, that it’s “ek ladki ko ek ladke ko rote hue dekhne ka sunehra mauka.” He must have never seen a Shah Rukh Khan movie. And there’s a lot of editorialising for a film this fluffy. Kia’s mother (Swaroop Sampat) plays the Wise One, saying things like the person who brings home the money gets more respect. But I didn’t mind it. I was reminded of the Wise One roles Sanjeev Kumar played in the 1970s and 80s – say, Shriman Shrimati – where family crises were solved with little homilies that would look great on greeting cards. (They’d be Facebook memes today.)
And in any case, Ki & Ka is a world removed from that of Shriman Shrimati. I cannot remember another Hindi film in which the heroine is so comfortable with wanting sex. There’s a little action sequence where Kabir beats up some thugs who tease Kia, and I dismissed it as a moment intended to remind us of Kabir’s virility in a film where he’s otherwise cooking or reading cookbooks – but the scene takes a surprising turn when Kia is turned on by this display of machismo. Balki’s is a very urban, upper-class perspective, and he’s unapologetic about it. I recalled the Vidya Balan character in Paa, so in the moment that she cannot wait for her boyfriend to find a condom. Another unique moment arrives when Kia is overjoyed that she is not pregnant. Balki does go for the cutes a lot of the time, but he endows his characters with surprising slivers of agency. I was surprised about the way Kia’s mother concluded that Kia was indeed in love with Kabir, and not his money. (His father is a wealthy builder. Let me put that differently. This man who’s renounced what society deems the masculine role, his family business is erections.) Kia’s mother says that women go for the whole package – not just looks, but money too. An acknowledgement of this sort isn’t something you’re likely to find in someone else’s movie, and it makes us think: Would Kia have gone on a second date with Kabir had he not mentioned the money? I’m not saying she’s a gold-digger. I’m just saying that it’s hard to dismiss money, and it’s easy to do things if it’s not an issue.
Would Kabir, for that matter, be able to fulfil his dream of emulating his mother’s role in the household had he not grown up with money, had he not needed to pursue it as his goal? He can afford to be a rebel. “I want to be like my mom,” he says, but it’s his dad who’s (largely) made it possible. Kabir claims he doesn’t want to end up in the rat race, as a robot, but there are many housewives who endure day after robotic day, doing the same things over and over, without even a promotion or a salary hike in sight. But then, Kabir (or maybe even Balki) doesn’t seem capable of thinking through all this, never mind his being the batch topper at IIM(B). He’s a man-child, happy with his trains. In the film’s most startling scene, Kabir throws a jealous fit after seeing Kia spending a lot of time with a male colleague, but his mood changes after Kia yells at him. He (or maybe Balki) is no longer interested in pursuing that thought-train. Now, he just wants to make love. Recall, also, the very bizarre scene where he catches the domestic help – another working woman – slacking off. The scene just hangs there, with no apparent reason for being, but the way Kabir gets over what’s happened, again, suggests a certain kind of man. In a different movie, I’d have called Kabir a saint who lives up to his name. He’s genuinely happy for Kia when she succeeds at work. (And note her name, practically a verb: she’s a doer.) Kabir doesn’t seem rattled that he has no male friends, that he only hangs out with the housewives in the building. He seems to have not a single dark moment where he questions his choice. But that’s just who he is, full of boyish positivity and cheer. Arjun Kapoor still mistakes making faces for acting, but he does put across this not especially bright man-child.
Kia, inevitably, is the more interesting half of the title. She’s older, age-wise but also infinitely more mature. She loves Kabir, but she also has that deep-rooted suspicion of men you find in many working women (and justifiably so). At first, she even lies to her co-workers that Kabir is working on a book. At some level, she still doesn’t get it – because she is, herself, dismissive of what being a “housewife” means, what it entails. And every time she fights with Kabir, she says horrible things that show how, underneath it all, she’s still trying to process this arrangement. However evolved a man is, a woman’s career is always compromised… You’re just another cheap man who’s pretending to be evolved… You can’t wipe off centuries of oppression by being a househusband… You’re a brilliant con man who’s using me to prove you can succeed by doing nothing… But what really galls her is that he becomes famous for being a househusband, a much sought-after figure in talk shows and on magazine covers. How many women who do the things he’s doing end up as famous? How unfair that when a man deigns to undertake what’s traditionally labelled a woman’s job, he still comes out on top. Or to put it a little differently, when a woman takes on what’s traditionally labelled a man’s job, she still has to share the spotlight. There’s a good scene where Kia comes home and finds there’s nothing to eat because the newly famous Kabir doesn’t have the time to enter the kitchen anymore. Logically speaking, she could have picked up the phone and ordered in. But she waits for him. She wants him to see her hungry. She wants him to see her sulk. She wants him to feel guilty about not fulfilling his half of the bargain. Kareeena Kapoor plays Kia beautifully. There’s a fantastic scene where she comes home and tells Kabir that her boss wants him for an ad. She makes a show of laughing off the idea (which she hates), but her face shows that she’s waiting to see what he will say, what he will do.
Perhaps you have to be tuned into the hyper-awareness in Balki’s filmmaking to really enjoy his films. He’s a bit of a man-child himself, incapable of letting a moment go by without seizing it, winking at it, and looking at us to make sure that we winked at it too. Take the opening scene where we meet Kia (Kareena Kapoor). It’s a wedding. The bride drags her to the dance floor. She protests, then joins in reluctantly, mimicking the bride’s steps. You have to laugh at the way the off-screen image jostles with the on-screen part. Here’s one of Bollywood’s most celebrated executer of jhatkas, acting like she’s above it all. Or take Kia’s job, as a marketing manager at Marico. How cleverly it allows for numerous product placements. Balki doesn’t even have to pretend to disguise the blatant shill for something like Saffola.
Then, of course, we have Balki’s undying interest in Bollywood’s biggest brand: Amitabh Bachchan. For the first time in the Balki-verse, the actor isn’t the main draw, and yet, he hovers over Ki & Ka like a guiding spirit. At least, one of his films does: Abhimaan. What if Bachchan fell for a much-younger woman? What if Bachchan played his real-life son’s on-screen son? What if Bachchan’s famous baritone belonged to someone else? Ki & Ka continues Balki’s investigation into (and deconstruction of) his favourite star: What if Abhimaan became a slightly subversive rom-com? And Balki being Balki, he won’t let things rest there. What if Abhimaan-like dynamics spilled into the lives of the real-life Bachchans, whom we meet at what seems to be their real home? What if Amitabh had chosen to give up his career, so Jaya could wave to her fans gathered outside their home every Sunday? Balki doesn’t go so far as to show (or even suggest) Jaya’s resentment, but you can’t help wondering how she feels about her abbreviated career, about being a bigger star than Amitabh at one point and then having to phase herself out of the industry because… it’s easier for a ki to do this than a ka. I wouldn’t be surprised if Balki dreamt up Ki & Ka as Jaya’s revenge-fantasy on Amitabh Bachchan.
KEY:
- Cheeni Kum = see here
- Paa = see here
- Shamitabh = see here
- Ki & Ka = his and hers
- mangalsutra = see here
- “ek ladki ko ek ladke ko rote hue dekhne ka sunehra mauka” = a golden opportunity for a girl to see the guy cry
- Shriman Shrimati = see here
- jhatkas = see here
- Abhimaan = see here
Copyright ©2016 Baradwaj Rangan. This article may not be reproduced in its entirety without permission. A link to this URL, instead, would be appreciated.
sanjana
April 2, 2016
Loved your review. What a detailed one! The last para, the last line is simply wonderful.
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Vasist Das
April 3, 2016
btw, does anyone here remember the name of that malayalam movie from some years ago that seems to have inspired ‘ki & ka’ ?
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Akhilan
April 3, 2016
Seems like Kareena has finally got her mojo back after what feels like an eternity…!!
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Anand
April 3, 2016
“In the film’s most startling scene, Kabir throws a jealous fit after seeing Kia spending a lot of time with a male colleague, but his mood changes after Kia yells at him. He (or maybe Balki) is no longer interested in pursuing that thought-train. Now, he just wants to make love.”
I thought they were just acting out a fantasy in this scene?
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kartkum
April 3, 2016
Yet to watch the movie. But, what a review Mr. Baradwaj Rangan. Mind-blowing, U r an artist. U shd have watched the movie minimum 2-3 times??? Can’t believe if this can be done in single viewing. But, Genius at work. Respect. No words……………. One of your best.
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Utkal
April 3, 2016
Excellent review. Very well articulated.
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brangan
April 3, 2016
Vasist Das: Don’t know about the Malayalam movie, but there was a 1980s rom-com with Michael Keaton and Teri Garr called Mr. Mom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Mom
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brangan
April 3, 2016
Also, is that really the Bachchan home?
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sanjana
April 3, 2016
Now it will be fun to have a sequel with kids thrown in.
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Rakesh
April 3, 2016
Blasphemous that balki moved away from.illayaraja to work with mithoon and meet brothers Anjaan for the soundtrack.. One of the last remaining directors who knew how to utilize raja s music.. Moves on.. Just one song from illayaraja… Did they fall out ? I got such a hint during gautam Menon s interview of illayaraja. On vijay TV
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venkatesh
April 3, 2016
Haven’t seen this but isn’t Kareena too old for Arjun Kapoor or am I being sexist here?
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
April 3, 2016
Considering that Arjun Kapoor is one generation ahead of Kareena Kapoor, it’s hard to guess what made her accept the role. 🙂 Previously, it was said that the makers of Rockstar did not approach her because her cousin was chosen to play the male lead!
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Raj Balakrishnan
April 3, 2016
I was just wondering, how does the nawab allow his begum to smooch other men on screen.
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mary kutty
April 3, 2016
Raj Balakrishnan: Saif is supposedly rather progressive when it comes to such issues. I also think Kareena is ambitious and determined enough to not coddle his whims and insecurities (if they exist) and sacrifice her career for it.
I liked this review. Especially those observations about Kabir getting attention for doing a job most women are expected to fulfill without appreciation or even acknowledgment. I don’t think I’m going to see this in a theater though. Love Kareena but seeing Arjun Kapoor, his ‘acting’ and his hair- chest and everywhere else (yuck!) is too much for me. There’s something about him that I find deeply repulsive- the demeanor and the way of speaking especially. He drains out the energy out of any movie he is in with it. I still remember 2 States where Alia Bhatt tried her best but was let down merely by his presence.
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Madhav
April 3, 2016
Sir … Simply superb !!
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rajesh_ny
April 4, 2016
finally Ki & Ka gets the kind of appreciative review that it deserves!
I was miffed to find Raja Sen & Rajeev Masand were largely dismissive, while I really loved Balki’s worldview. http://rajeshmoviegoer.wordpress.com/2016/04/01/ki-and-ka/
(“This man who’s renounced what society deems the masculine role – his family business is erections.” Brilliant pun, BR!)
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olemisstarana
April 4, 2016
venkatesh – She’s 5 years older than he is. ???
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sanjana
April 4, 2016
And people are forgetting that Cricket legend Sachin is happily married to his wife who is years older to him.
If a 40 year old man married a 30 year old woman, its ok and not vice versa?
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sanjana
April 4, 2016
And the heroes who are nearing fifties can prance around with girls who are under 25. What about them?
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
April 4, 2016
sanjana: Saif didn’t have a problem with Amrita Singh. 🙂
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olemisstarana
April 4, 2016
@Raj Balakrishnan: Interesting phrasing.
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sanjana
April 4, 2016
sanjana: Saif didn’t have a problem with Amrita Singh. 🙂
But he divorced her.
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Apu
April 4, 2016
About the review:
I liked how you looked at the movie from a entertainment POV and not exactly about it “trying to make a statement”. I have been conflicted about my reaction to the trailers and have been wondering how the roles in this movie can be interpreted both ways – as being both progressive (as in, it highlights that a relationship like this can exist) and regressive (as in, just because a man is doing what a woman is “normally” expected to do, it makes it a movie premise). But your review makes a point that one can look at this as a rom-com with just an unconventional role playing in the mix, which also means that the behavior or dialogues or situations of the characters need not be put under the microscope and judged word-by-word. Thank you for a different take.
About the discussion here about age and “begum kissing other males”:
The movie does mention that she is older (or so I presume for this review and others).
Yes, she is married in real life. Does that make it so difficult for the audience to engage with this movie that they need to bring up the husband? (Genuine question) Do Indian audience still have a problem accepting married women in romantic roles?
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Sifter
April 5, 2016
Why is a question like the supposed age difference between Kareena and Arjun is even coming into discussion here? Or for that matter how her husband is ‘allowing’ her to kiss other men on the screen?
Seriously? I am incredulous? Why?
So, it is okay for the heroine to be 15 to 35 years older than the hero, but questions and wonderment stars with the heroine being a little older than the hero?
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brangan
April 5, 2016
Apu: Yeah, to me this is just a rom-com with the gender thing as the obstacle. But maybe the nature of the issue is such that people automatically take it very seriously?
For that matter, even Abhimaan is quite a one-note movie, in the sense that the ego conflict is the “obstacle,” the dramatic crux. There could be many things driving apart husband and wife. Jealousy/suspicion in Aap Ki Kasam. Compromising on principles in Tere Mere Sapne. In Abhimaan, it is the ego thing.
But in all these films, it’s all fairly on the surface. There’s no great incisive dredging. Which isn’t to say these aren’t good movies, or that a movie can be good ONLY if it deep-dives into the issues its apparently about. Just saying that these are good movies that are also fairly straightforward, so — IMO — there’s not much to be gained by extrapolating on Abhimaan to talk seriously about gender etc (or Tere Mere Sapne to talk about doctors and principles, or Aap Ki Kasam to talk about relationships).
These film are primarily drama, about one particular set of characters being put through the motions of a screenplay.
Similarly, Ki & Ka is primarily a rom-com. It doesn’t warrant a very serious look, though the nature of the subject (here, as well as in Abhimaan) does imbue the film with the sheen of seriousness.
Of course, if you think it fails even as a rom-com, that’s a different matter… 🙂
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Raj Balakrishnan
April 5, 2016
@mary kutty: I guess kareena is the headstrong type. Feel sorry for Saif.
@olemisstarana: nawabs are the Conservative types right? Generally control their begums . So surprised that this begum does what she wants. The senior begum went all demure after marrying nawab pataudi.
@sifter and sanjana: men are tradionally older as women, biologically, age quicker (proven right?)
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Raj Balakrishnan
April 5, 2016
@Venkatesh: Kareena should stick to srk, ak, salman, balakrishna or nagarjuna
☺
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Srinivasa Yogananda Rao Netrakanti
April 5, 2016
The way the characters in the movie ‘Ki & Ka’ come from from a very affluent background and are highly-urban in their life-style. Another film that comes to mind which has the same story-line but different background is Telugu film Mr. Pellam (1993) (literally translated, Mr. Wife) directed by famous Telugu director Bapu, story by Mullapudi Venkata Ramana. The film won National Best Regional Feature Film in Telugu for the year 1993. The film starts with an invocation to Lord Rama, Lord Krisha and Lord Venkateswara along with their respective consorts Sita, Satyabhama and Lakshmi by Sage Narada, singing of their respective prowess and valour, leaving the audience in guess who is gerater God/s or Goddess/ess- symbolising male gender versus female gender with a humours slant Coming to the story, it is a middle-class Telugu family, in which the husband, named symbolically Balaji (Another name for Lord Venkatewara who has no wealth or money to marry Padmavathi,played by Rajendra Prasad) who loses his job in a bank (Andhra Bank) because of the ploy or trick played by his colleagues on the very day of promotion(though unconvincing earned sympathy), his wife Jhansi( reminiscent of the name of the lady who fought First War of Independence against the British-Jhansi Lakshmi Bai) who is B.Com graduate seeks an employment in a company of her college-mate to run the family, along with her two children-a girl and a boy- fights against the corrupt-colleagues of her husband to reinstate her husband. The story is of domestic-humour. with situational comedy scenes sparingly. There is neither the glamour nor glitter in the film. The oralities and values of middle-class are reflected in the entire movie-in dialogue, in action.
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olemisstarana
April 5, 2016
@Raj Balakrishnan: Nawabs also tend not to be movie actors. Your point being?
Also, re: women age faster – they also live longer, proven, right? Is their only value associated with their biological usefulness?
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Filistine
April 5, 2016
Umm, how can women age quicker biologically? Its not like women experience time differently from men. 30 years to an woman is the same as 30 years to a man
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olemisstarana
April 5, 2016
Also re: senior begum and being demure…
Sharmila Tagore did Amar Prem, An Evening in Paris (in a blue one piece), Aradhana, Mausam (playing a prostitute) Aa Gale Lag Jaa (where she absolutely rocked a harem outfit), and a host of other glamorous and serious roles. She also made Indian magazine cover history by wearing a bikini on a Filmfare issue (I know, tame by today’s standards) right around the time her romance with Pataudi was taking off.
These damn nawabs… can’t control their hussy women. Tut tut. /sarcasm,
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Raj Balakrishnan
April 5, 2016
@olemisstarana: my point being that a married woman, from an aristocratic background, who tend to be more conscious of their social status, is smooching other men on screen. I am kind of shocked. Nothing more.
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olemisstarana
April 5, 2016
@Raj Balakrishnan:
It’s called acting and it’s a job.
Interesting that your shock does not extend to Kareena being offended at Saif “smooching” other women on screen.
“I guess kareena is the headstrong type. Feel sorry for Saif.”
Own your words.
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Amit Joki
April 5, 2016
The last time I retorted against sexism, didn’t went too well. But the problem here of kissing other men or vice versa can be easily solved by imagining the actual shooting scene and how it would have gone by.
Regarding smooching. There are light men, director, cameraman, script writers and ither crew present at the set. Now imagine all these people around you and add the swooping camera with its multiple angles to capture their smooching. Do you feel like smooching?
My point is Nawab would have never allowed Begum to smooch other men in the absence of a filming scenario. Arjun couldn’t just go to his house and smooch Kareena without being banged by Saif.
But when it is filming, it is acting. Nothing more, nothing less. In fact it takes more acting finesse to be able to create that spark of intimacy for the aforementioned reasons.
My 2 cents.
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ESP
April 5, 2016
Kudos to Kareena….She is past her suffering for art phase and all that bull. The amount of high profile, performance oriented, author backed roles she has refused is just mind boggling. Latest news…she has refused to star in sadma remake too.
She has got her priorities right. Why work so hard .Chill and do all the fevicol, mary , tandoori murgi item dances…..Make quick money to sponsor her and Saifu’s bi-annual swiss vacations. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is extra moolah for her written into the contract for all the smooch scenes in Ki and Ka.
I bet she is laughing at the likes of Priyanka, Deepika working their backsides off at far off places, away from family and friends with no life….for what …to end up all washed up and past their primes as has beens. Kareena did the best. Got the best catch in her prime…got married to nawab money..And Saif has turned out to be a gem of a guy too.
I wonder what gave her such insight and discernment. Maybe being from the industry and learning from the mistakes of her mother and sister.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
April 5, 2016
But he divorced her.
Perhaps not because of age, especially if you consider the fact that the couple lived together for 13 years! Also, why say ‘he divorced her’? Isn’t divorce a matter of mutual consent (at least in their case)?
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olemisstarana
April 5, 2016
ESP – Congratulations. This is the perfect time capsule of a comment. Did the stolen tardis malfunction and put you in 2016 instead of 1816?
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ESP
April 5, 2016
Regarding the kissing scenes…..I have heard several actors say it doesn’t feel all that good to see their spouse kissing on screen…..male or female…
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olemisstarana
April 5, 2016
I’ve heard that every time a married actress kisses another actor on screen, a goat turns into a chupacabra.
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Sifter
April 6, 2016
@Raj Balakrishnan – “men are tradionally older as women, biologically, age quicker (proven right?)”
Age quicker? Really? In what sense? Are you also of the thought that a women’s worth is connected to her biological prime? For what purpose exactly.
P.S. – I wish there was an edit comment feature. My first comment was just…
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Sifter
April 6, 2016
Oh, and your…”I guess kareena is the headstrong type. Feel sorry for Saif”
Gosh!
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Sifter
April 6, 2016
Your’s is the one positive and interesting review of this movie I have seen so far.
But I do not understand when you wrote “My favourite touch: Kabir wearing the mangalsutra, its gold gleaming a few inches above his chest hair.” What did you mean by that?
Because, even though I just saw the trailer, that scene jarred me. Rom-com or not, it just reiterated the general thought that when a women wears a mangalsutra, her place is in the kitchen. Like women/men in movies taunting bad men to wear “bangles” or “sarees” to show that they have been brought to their knees. What is with such thoughts??
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Rahini David
April 6, 2016
Sifter, Wonderful point on the Mangalsutra. It is an ornament that spells “You are owned by a higher authority” and that point was jarring.
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Apu
April 6, 2016
Thanks Olemisstarana, Sifter, Mary Kutty, Amit Joki for chiming in – I was getting a little restless. You all said exactly what I wanted to say about comments like “Nawabs allowing”, “feel sorry for Saif” etc. Now I will shut up and call it a night.
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Raj Balakrishnan
April 6, 2016
@olemisstarana, Amit Joki, Sifter: ok call me old fashioned, sexist , whatever. Can’t accept a married woman kissing another guy even if it is only acting.
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olemisstarana
April 6, 2016
Well, at least you aren’t asking if you are sexist. Brownie points for self awareness… I guess.
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Amit Joki
April 6, 2016
You are only sexist if you can accept married men kissing ither divas.
While it invariably hurts and hurts your ego whenever your partner is sharing intimacy with others and you ought to regardless of gender. I think either they are far more progressive and can watch their spouses or husbands being kissed ( for a perspective and example, Aishwarya Dhanush directed Dhanush with Shruti Hassan in 3 which had fair amount of intimacy moments ) or you don’t watch those movies ( like the hero of 50 shades of grey didn’t let his family and wife watch that film, read on Quora, no judgements please).
Ajith-Shalini pair is a great case study in this scenario. Shalini had great romantic films with Madhavan and some others. But didn’t see her after her marriage a lot.
But you can see Ajith, who sorry if someone finds it offensive, looks like a grandpa with white hairs, romancing Tamannah. I really felt bad when they marry in Veeram.
I am also reminded of a quote from Sidney Lumet on this thing but can’t remember it correctly.
All this arises from the fact that males get to play the protagonist and heroines mostly get to play his romantic interest.
Hence it feels okay if Salman Khan romances Katrina, because he does much more than just romance in the film, he has a lot on stakes in terms of plot but Katrina? She has one job. To play his love interest. This is where the equations go wrong and in favor of the male.
We are accustomed to males as protagonists and the females as their love interest.
The focus should not be on older women romancing younger heroes just for the heck of it, but on getting the protagonists’ role. Imagine the now Sridevi as a detective. Plausible. Good even. Now imagine her romancing Dhanush, with shitloads of make up just to look the part. It doesn’t look right, even if some feminists might vehemently retort that it does. No. It doesn’t.
Unless otherwise, we get more films with females as protagonists, they would have to continue playing the second fiddle, which after a certain age doesn’t look right. Hence we always get young heroines as they are just there to attract eyeballs of the heroes and audience alike.
It is high time heroines became heroes.
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Rahul
April 6, 2016
If I am allowed a detour , wanted to express wonderment at the terrific career of the senior begum, some highlights of which have been mentioned by olemisstarana. She started her career as a 15 year old in a ray movie and since then she has treaded so effortlessly between arty and commercial movies .
Just looking at her work in Basu bhattacharya’s trilogy of marital discord, among others, I think she stacks with shabana and smita when it comes to arty movies , and her place as a proper glamorous commercial star has never been in question.
I think there has not been an actress in the hindi film industry that has a wider range than her.
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ESP
April 6, 2016
olemiss…new to the net? Anybody who has an opinion different from yours is stuck in 1816?
I know I shouldn’t give you the time of the day. You sound like someone who has a lot of time wiling away at home. (Or are you one of those 16 year old rabid Kareena fans?) whatever..
But this is the comment section in a blog space and not your home. Look at how classy everyone else is and how nicely people are putting out their opinions even if they disagree with each other…Stop following people around and saying weird stuff just because they have an opinion different from yours.
Thank God this is a blog and I can step right over you (and your comments without reading it)…..geezz…the muck and filth you have to wade through in the net!!!
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olemisstarana
April 6, 2016
Amit – I agree with you until a point. I think these preconceived notions of love and romance that prevent an older woman from being the object of romantic affection. There’s good film making and there is bad filmmaking and bad filmmaking can make old and young actors and actresses look ridiculous. Why can’t we have an older actress in a purely romantic movie – as in romance for the sake of it?
I am pushing 35 and I find it absurd that in American cinema and Indian cinema alike, women of my age are so over the hill, we might as well sit on an ice floe and have our relatives push us out to sea. The idea that women cannot be purely romantic objects (notwithstanding the age of the other variable) after a certain golden witching hour, that we have a “Last F*ckable Day” is myopic and just a more fanciful way of asking (as one poster in this thread did) if Kareena is too old for Arjun and wondering if the question is sexist.
Maggie Gyllenhaal, at 37 was too old to play the romantic interest of a 55 year old leading man. Anne Hathaway is now finding herself boxed out of roles that she was favored for earlier… “When I was in my early twenties, parts would be written for women in their fifties and I would get them. And now I’m in my early thirties and I’m like, ‘Why did that 24 year old get that part?’” She’s 32.
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olemisstarana
April 6, 2016
ESP: Oh wait – you heard about the older engaged actress who kissed the actor 2 years younger than herself (I believe she even had the right to vote at the time… shocker!) and caused the eruption of Krakatoa. So glad she wasn’t married at the time.
Also, it’s Olemisstarana to you. Good day sir. I say, Good Day.
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sanjana
April 6, 2016
We need Olemisstaranas to drive home the point through thick skulls. I admire her ready wit.
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An Jo
April 7, 2016
Amit Joki: Arjun couldn’t just go to his house and smooch Kareena without being banged by Saif.
Jejus, that’s one helluva way of describing a three-way..
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olemisstarana
April 7, 2016
Here’s one more, ESP – this one actress, (I can’t even pretend to call her an actress, she just shook her booty with a couple of aging film matinee idols and ran around a couple of trees) got married to an industrialist who was fooled into thinking she still had at least 15 more child bearing years. She lied, she had only 12. She thought she had fooled him and all, completely secure in the industrialist money, thinking she was set for life, but after her first kid, her gynecologist Dr. Spaceman, who went to Harvard with the industrialist, determined that she had a FULL 3 years less than she claimed on her biological punch card. I don’t want to start a rumor, but she hasn’t been heard of since…
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Amit Joki
April 7, 2016
Olemisstarana: See, this is why I said that the focus should not be on older women romancing younger heroes.
Let me put this way. Hero however old, has an enormous grasp on the plot of the story. Romance is a tad bit in it. And so, we can digest the fact that he deserves it. Also what drives these films of older men awkwardly romancing with younger ladies is their fans.
But women? Aren’t they always playing a love interest most of the times? It is their only job in the film.
Script doesn’t need heroines most of the time. It is the hero that needs her. So, when you have got one job to do, the audience expects the best in it.
That is why I push for female oriented films in which they play a larger part than just romancing.
See for example. If Sridevi is some sort of radical politician and after doing lots of good work in the story, feels a longing towards our young Dhanush, who turns out to be her party worker, then I will definitely buy it.
But Dhanush stalking Sridevi is what I cannot imagine.
To hell with it. Why are women romantic creatures always? Why not play the larger role and moving the movie forward than the hero.
Or do you yourself accept that they are not capabale of anything more than that? I don’t think so. But in the current crop of actresses, none works hard as the hero does. All they display is loose ponnu characteristics, emotions of being sad, happy, angry, cute. Not all of them, like Kalki Koechline, Konkana, but you see they fall out of favour because they aren’t dping what’s mainstream and those who are doing mainstream are doing a job that is easily replacable. Hence gets replaced.
Remember the heroines shelf life is small because most of the times they end up romancing while the hero does lot more than just that.
That is why we should focus on female protagonists, but I don’t see a great surge of them because of the Box Office equations. May be a film or two. But it has to start. It might take 100s of years before women finally do the same job as men do.
Evolution of cinema wrt women getting strong string roles must be started now and with a bang.
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Sifter
April 7, 2016
@Rahini- It rankles me, though I would not consider it even as an ornament; more like a rope with the ‘sacredness’ thrown in for women to be hung for the rest of her life. Without it, she is open to be called endless names. I have not seen one man discuss with his soon to be wife or wife to eschew it. On the contrary, I know of many who are proponents of the Self Respect Movement, Social Activists, Forward Thinkers, etc. forcing the women they were supposed to marry (and their families) to ditch the marriage traditions of their ‘caste’ but for the ‘mangalsutra’ and getting praised for it. This goes for a few other religions that have not forsaken this ‘Indian Tradition’ as well.
I don’t understand people going gaga over that rare man donning the mangalsutra (even in a rom-com it is not fun). It just reiterates the absurd reality that women are supposedly happy to owned thus.
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Sifter
April 7, 2016
@Raj Balakrishnan- I wouldn’t make the mistake of calling you old fashioned; it has some very good meaning attached to it. Sexist on the other hand…….because it started with your wondering, progressed to calling her names, surprised that she does what she wants, proclaiming that she should stick to aged (young) male stars, veered off to being kind of shocked; nothing more, then ended (for now) with ‘can’t accept a married woman kissing another guy even if it is only acting.’
Bravo!
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Sifter
April 7, 2016
@Amit Joki- Agree with some of what you said, disagree with what you said thus:
All they display is loose ponnu characteristics, emotions of being sad, happy, angry, cute.
Correction: They are only required to display the above because THAT IS THE WAY their parts are written. They are written only to titillate, nothing more. Then in a few years they can be relegated to the dusty attic.
I agree it has to start; infact re-start now. But don’t expect a Bang 🙂 I remember reading a review by Sujatha in Kumudam (when I was this wee little thing) for ‘Kalyana Agadigal’ and one point remains with me till now. He said Balachander has forgotten that 73% (or 78%) of the movie going public is male. You cannot make them like a movie like this. Though the late 70’s and early 80’s had strong roles written for women and ended up being hits, post that Sujatha’s comments still ring true (sad but).
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Rahini David
April 7, 2016
ESP: BTW, why is it a problem if Kareena consciously avoids high profile, performance oriented, author backed roles wants to do fluff? She has only one life and if she wants to wear pretty clothes, shake a few bon bons and earn some money with it and then take her husband on a nice vacation, then let her. Surely no production house is going to go bankrupt just because Kareena refused to suffer for art.
the muck and filth you have to wade through in the net!!!
I know, right? 😀
Look at how classy everyone else is and how nicely people are putting out their opinions even if they disagree with each other…
I really could not have said it my better myself. 😉
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Raj Balakrishnan
April 7, 2016
@sifter, that was a nice summary, thanks. I am a sexist, also communal and a little bit racist. The complete package. Despicable Me 4 is going to be based on me.☺
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deepak
April 7, 2016
wow Raj that was very funny
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Raghav
April 7, 2016
@Srinivasa Yogananda Rao Netrakanti : Thanks for bringing up ‘Mr Pellam’ into the discussion.A really enjoyable movie!What that movie did was to show the deep rooted insecurities of a man when he sees his wife so successful at office and at home-all this without one bit of any preaching.Rajendra Prasad plays him as a total MCP who doesn’t know it but is also completely in love with his wife (similar to Shashi’s husband in English Vinglish-but the ego turned a few notches higher).Yet to catch this one.Personally I stiil feel Balki’s best is Cheeni Kum-silly climax and irritating kid notwithstanding!
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Raj Balakrishnan
April 7, 2016
Thanks Deepak.
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olemisstarana
April 7, 2016
@Raj Balakrishnan: I don’t know about all that.. I do know that you are going to find it more and more difficult to air such views and not get called out on them.
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olemisstarana
April 7, 2016
@Amit Joki – Again, I agree with you about 5/6ths of the way. My contention is that women should be allowed to play ANY role. Good, bad, silly, serious, frivolous, meaty etc. age notwithstanding. Like I said, it’s in the writing. I tend to be slightly uncomfortable with the camp that says that women should only this or that.
Roles where women of any age are considered for them is what I want. I think you brought up the Salman Katrina pairing in your earlier comment. “Hence it feels okay if Salman Khan romances Katrina, because he does much more than just romance in the film, he has a lot on stakes in terms of plot but Katrina? She has one job. To play his love interest. This is where the equations go wrong and in favor of the male.” Why not a Juhi or a Madhuri here? They’re from the same generation as him. Why not have an older actress fill the role of a silly vacuous heroine? Why is it so odd?
This is not at all to say that I would really love more Kahaani, Mardani, English-Vinglish roles for actresses. Again, just so I am clear, I agree for the most part with what you say. Just slight subtle quibbles.
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olemisstarana
April 7, 2016
@Sanjana – You are very kind… 😀 I have realized that I could either get all huffy or just make fun of these types of commenters. The latter is so much more amusing. I also get to flex my creative writing fingers, and since they proclaim that they don’t read any of my garbage commenting, no harm done, right?
@Rahini – HI… 😀
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olemisstarana
April 7, 2016
http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/emma-jlaw-and-scarletts-older-man-problem.html
Someone needs to do this for Indian movies. Sonakshi, Sonam, Katrina, Alia, Kangana maybe?
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Sifter
April 7, 2016
@ Raj Balakrishnan- Interesting. Hypothetically, if your wish comes true, hollywood may or may not allow you to remain who you confess you are by the end of it. On the other hand, our own Kollywood would; it is already on the Neverland Express for a long while now.
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mainland
April 7, 2016
olemisstarana.. I don’t know if you are open to discussions and doubt clearing. Or if you are open to another perspective on this. But let me just take a leap of faith here.
I liked that video. But why this obsession with fckability? Is this another import from Americas like homophobia, where Indian men refuse to hold each others hands and give an occasional hug to each other etc because they are so scared of being seen as gays, like the Americans?
Isn’t there no other dimension to women than being fckable? I am sure women can be a lot of things other than f*ckable. Would it be better if some of these women worked their way up to positions of power and bring about changes in this scenario by casting older women in such roles where they are cast as desirable women and making it work at the box office, because obviously no men in positions of power is doing that.
In India, I can think of Preity Zinta who tried to do that, some love story in Paris movie. But that was a big flop. Do you want this obsession with being and looking desirable all the time imported to India that they end up looking like Renee Zellweger and Donatella Versace and whole lot of others who look just ridiculous in their pursuit to look young and f*ckable?
I have a whole lot of respect for an Ekta Kapoor, not for the crappy serials and movies she makes. But she is one of those poor little rich girls who could have easily gotten married to the next richest guy and have had a good life. But she chose to do this. Upped her game in a tough industry that is ruled by the boys club and made a success for herself and she is in a position of power where she can make choices. Does she do anything about this and cast older women as protagonists, not that she has to.
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sanjana
April 7, 2016
olemisstarana, Rahini. I enjoy reading your comments. I miss Anu.
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mainland
April 7, 2016
A Kareena Kapoor has the right to choose anything she wants to do with her life. She is one of those golden girls who was born with the right looks into the industry and had the patronage of a lot of powerful men and she had the best of movies at her disposal. But she decided to do item dances..Nothing wrong with that. Her life, her choice. She is asking the audience to find her desirable and katakale mujhe alchohol se. Ok the audience listened to her and did just that , at least in their imagination. But then is it fair to ask the audience to find her desirable after 10 or 20 years down the line doing the same thing? Doesn’t audience have the right to choose who they find desirable?
I see a lot of people putting down Arjun for his hairy body and Ajith for his “white hairs” and stuff. Isn’t this an entertainment industry and aren’t people going to be judged for their looks, no matter what their sex.
Her choices all sound safe, safer, safest. She was a young beautiful actress who could have made revolutionary choices in her career or life but she decided to dump her boyfriend whose career was going nowhere at the time and got married to the actor whose prospects looked better. (Ok I am sure there is a politically correct way of saying it..but I just don’t have the time to think it right now and my English is obviously not all that good).Again her life her choice.But why venerate her for the smallest things she does. Is it even a big deal, kissing on Indian screen anymore?
There are women doing this in real life all the time , chucking up better prospects and making safer, lazier choices in life, instead of being risk taking trail blazers. Is there anything wrong if directors cast such characters in movies too? Why blame directors if they choose to cast young women as desirable things who use their youth to attract men in positions of power because obviously it is happening in real life too.Women who use their looks, youth, position etc not to do wonderful work in their chosen field and prove themselves and work their way up and gain their colleagues respect but to get hitched to the next rich man. Again her life her choice. But then don’t tell others to take her seriously .
I would like to reserve my admiration for a Kangana who is her clawing her way up in an industry where she is an outsider, against all odds. A Farah Khan who rose up against all odds. I root for a Priyanka or Deepika who is trying to work their way up . I hope they don’t end up as nobodys if they don’t get married to the right guy. I hope they are smart enough to stay relevant, without using the crutch of a rich powerful man but on their own merit. Then we will hopefully have directors taking such women as examples and writing in such characters into their movies and making success out of it.
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Amit Joki
April 7, 2016
Olemisstarana: That might be because Amala Paul is getting less offers than Amy Jackson.
That might be because men go crazy over beautiful ladies and they comprise a majority of audience but the meagre amount of female audience still goes gaga over SRK.
That might be because Juhi’s sparkling eyes or Madhuri’s adaa do not count much in this overly sexualized industry. How many men will go gaga to see them on screen again? A handful.
That might be because only a handful of us are raising hue and cry over younger heroines romancing slightly older men. But they themselves might have had no such issues probably. Heck, some of them are gushing to act alongside Rajini, Amitabh, SRK, Salman.
An Jo: fun intended :p
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Rahini David
April 7, 2016
Mainland: I have a doubt. Are you saying that the media venerates Kareena or that the commenters here are doing it? Who is asking you to take her seriously?
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sanjana
April 7, 2016
Kareena is a practical girl and she has seen her mother’s marriage and sister’s marriage breaking down. Saif wanted a stylish girlfriend from a famous family. Kareena could have married a big industrialist. She herself is a big star. Instead of spending a lifetime going from one boyfriend to another, she settled for marriage with a person who is progressive enough. As Saif has two kid from his first marriage, Kareena is under no pressure to have her own kids. As for choices of roles, she has proved her credentials with her first film itself. She had Refugee, Omkara, Chameli, Talash and some other roles. Even in Bajrangi Bhaijaan, she had a good role and she looked good as a small town girl. As for item numbers, its her choice and I dont want to be judgmental. She must be doing them for fun.
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olemisstarana
April 7, 2016
mainland: Much of my reply to you here will be a slight refinement of my point to Amit Joki, so do read those comments too.
Before I answer you, I will admit that I have been away from India for the better part of two decades, so please indulge me if most of my examples are from the US. I do think that some parts of the feminine experience are universal, however, and in my response to you I’d like to refer to this universality.
For one, the Amy Schumer video was satire, poking fun at the establishment, the good ol’ boys club that writes and doles out the vast majority of roles available to women they consider “worth” it. This works into a vicious cycle of sorts. The decision makers decide who the roles go to, the public sees only these archetypes and believes these archetypes are the only ones desirable. So no, of course not, I do not think the only value women have is their f*ckability… 🙂 The women featured in the video are the few powerhouses of comedy, objectively beautiful (not that that should necessarily be the focus of the point), brilliant, incredibly successful, who have gone through this exact issue that the sketch lampoons. I don’t know if you have been a part of the regular comment readers, but my history here is testament to that.
Next, I will disagree quite vocally with you here, re: Renee Zellweger and Donatella Versace. Women are under enough pressure to be this and not that, to look like this and not that. Women have been made fun of for aging, for looking too young, for dressing dowdy, for dressing younger than their age, for being too fat, for being too thin, for being outspoken, for not leaning in, for being bossy, for giving in too quickly, for being too educated, for being… etc. etc. etc. we just can’t win. I think it’s time to quit that.
If a woman wants to be beautiful and conventionally attractive, why must there be such a judgmental examination of her decision? How does it affect you if Renee gets a lip plumper, or Donatella favors the sun so much? You may be grossed out by it, but then again, how is it harmful? How different is this brand of misogyny from the kind that we read on the front of the Dailymail or checkout counter tabloids? Speaking of Renee specifically, she has gotten so much crap for putting on the weight she did for her turn in the Bridget Jones series. And that was for a role, her job. Her eyes are too squinty, her mouth is too pouty, she’s clinging to youth (god, it’s a laundry list), and I say quit it.
I am not advocating lauding anyone at all for their choices in life if you don’t admire or agree with them. But are you reserving the right to judge women for their career choices, personal grooming choices, romantic choices, clothing choices in the same manner that you would judge a male actor? Even if you are an equal opportunity judger, you do realize the pressure on female actors is exponentially higher than it is on male actors? Further, could you point out exactly where I asked the readers here to venerate her or take her too seriously?
“Is it even a big deal, kissing on Indian screen anymore?” Did you read this thread?
“Why blame directors if they choose to cast young women as desirable things who use their youth to attract men in positions of power because obviously it is happening in real life too.Women who use their looks, youth, position etc not to do wonderful work in their chosen field and prove themselves and work their way up and gain their colleagues respect but to get hitched to the next rich man.”
Ah – you are blaming starlets for taking what little advantage of the system that they can that is set up by people in positions of power who make the real decisions. Right then.
The question is not one of approval here – each one of us is entitled to dole that however and wherever we choose to – it is one of opportunity.
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olemisstarana
April 7, 2016
@Amit Joki – I am not talking about the bottom-dollar/rupee-line here. I am questioning attitudes. If the only thing that mattered was financial interests then we wouldn’t even be having this dialog.
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Nee
April 8, 2016
if you are sitting on 1000 crore property and moolah and still have to go around kissing-lip to lip and all that, be it kareen or leone sunny, in the name of acting, not sure about others but I am with Raj. Why marry then? Have an open relationship. Both do whatever they want to do. Now had it been Fawad Khan (BRs fav) I can understand…just kidding….Arjun-yikes-kapoor…yuk..yuk..yuk..kareena-desperado, what were you thinking….I would change my profession!
Raj: some people are pusing 40 and still childish and full of themselves. Let it be.
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olemisstarana
April 8, 2016
Nee: You remind me of carrion. If you have something to say to me, grow a pair and say it directly.
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P
April 8, 2016
I look forward to watching this over the weekend. Thanks for the review. I may be in the minority here- but I find Arjun Kapoor absolutely charming in his over-the-top acting style, he has an innocence and sweetness that combines with a gruff, hinterlands-ey masculinity that I find intriguing.
I really like Kareena but haven’t seen her in anything I would really love to watch (except “Fevicol Se”-absolutely brilliant 😀 ) and I guess the last time I saw her on the big screen was many moons ago in Talaash- where she was nothing less than amazing.
One of my all time favorite movies of Kareena is not the ever-fun Jab We Met, but this tiny Priyadarshan gem called “Hulchul”, she and Akshaye Khanna are such an unusual pair and her comic timing is bang on- so I am happy she is doing something frothy and mainstream again.
She doesn’t need to do arty-farty movies to prove herself or stay relevant. She has found her own way to do so. I wish people made more romcom dramedies though. They are so much fun to watch. Last one was maybe Hasee to Phasee?
I also disagree that women above a certain age can’t be hot or sexy or desirable. Case in point – Chitrangada Singh. My 16 year old cousin, his mom joined me when I watched that song “Aao Raja” when it released on youtube. Our collective jaws dropped. My aunt was inspired to work out for two extra days, my cousin immediately added Chitrangada to his list of “red hot women” (the others on this list are Vidya Balan and Deepika Padukone). And I practised every move she makes in that song as part of my work out 😉
Chitrangada Singh is 40 per wikipedia (add 2-3 years to that- to get her real age).
Just like there are very few men who age well and look good enough to romance at 50, there are few women who age well, who maintain their looks. Its not like every hero from the 90s has survived to be considered desirable like SRK. In fact Salman and Aamir have barely any romance “track” in their movies these days (even in PK, Aamir doesn’t “get” the girl, he just loves her from afar) because they honestly don’t look very desirable and that is not their shtick anymore. Salman’s is that he’s a man on the street, Aamir’s is that he’s a messiah from above.
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Madan
April 8, 2016
The question is not one of approval here – each one of us is entitled to dole that however and wherever we choose to – it is one of opportunity. – Fair enough. But then, the system will continue to be lopsided in a certain way as long as this trend continues. Also, in that case, somebody like Michelle Pfeiffer shouldn’t complain about women having it harder when they get old compared to men. I don’t have the exact quote offhand but that’s the gist of what she said. Really? So I wonder why Helen Mirren lands more roles and meatier ones than Pfeiffer. Once you’ve made that choice, you can’t complain about it. I don’t think make up or lack thereof particularly helps Jodi Foster’s looks but at the end of the day she has two Oscars and Pfeiffer has zilch.
I am not so pessimistic as some of the commenters on this thread – I think there is a great opportunity today for Bollywood actresses to break free from playing second fiddle to the big male stars. Actress-led films haven’t enjoyed as much success in a long time as they have in the last few years. But enough actresses then need to make bold choices with their roles too instead of playing safe. Sure, ‘acting’ alongside Bhai is a safe ticket. But just don’t grumble about it if you’ve made that choice and yes such choices have an impact on the way actresses are perceived. To argue whether perceptions are right or wrong would be neither here nor there. FWIW I think Kareena Kapoor is pretty haughty (once said Priyanka Chopra isn’t an actress) and time will judge where her choices land her vis a vis Kangana Ranaut/Deepika Padukone/PC.
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brangan
April 8, 2016
I’m a little shocked at some of the comments that seem to liken post-marital on-screen kissing to prostitution. Kareena isn’t kissing Arjun. Kareena is playing a character who is kissing Arjun’s character. I think there’s a difference there.
Two, it’s not easy to do a Fevicol se. You need to have the shape for it. You need the sex appeal. You need to be able to dance. A Shabana cannot pull this off. Let’s not restrict “good acting” to just serious parts. (I have found Kareena hamming her way in a few parts, yes, but that’s an entirely different matter. She’s excellent here.)
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sanjana
April 8, 2016
Well said P and BR.
As for Saif’s wealth, most of it will go to his son along with the title and some will go to his daughter, Kareena and Amrita Singh. And his sisters are there.
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sanjana
April 8, 2016
As for Kareena being haughty and saying something about co stars. Are not other actresses also doing the same? After all it is a tough world out there and they cant be nice to one another.
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brangan
April 8, 2016
Just realised that i sounded judgemental about prostitution in the comment above. I was only referring to how the profession is generally perceived. I have no problem with it as long as one isn’t forced into it.
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Rahini David
April 8, 2016
I vaguely thought that too, BR. People’s choice are their business and a woman deciding to marry the richest man who proposes to her or a woman deciding to flaunt her body for money/fame/kicks or a woman deciding that prostitution is her line of business are all minding their own business. Some people seem to think that saying this one and the same as saying “I admire women who decide to dump poorer men for richer ones”, “I venerate prostitution” etc. It just means that “I don’t judge people who don’t actively harm other people”.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
April 8, 2016
Dharmendra and Sanjeev Kumar made hit-pairs with Suchitra Sen, Padmini, Meena Kumari, et al. AB paired up with Waheeda Rehman in Mahaan. Sridevi did Army with SRK. And, our very own Simbu (now STR) romanced older women quite often in his films (Sonia Aggarwal, Sneha, Jyothika, to name a few).
As someone who comes from the Kapoor family, why should Kareena (married or not) desist herself from kissing other men onscreen?
Amit Joki: Still in the mid-teens? 🙂
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Aditya (Gradwolf)
April 8, 2016
I’ve always been shocked by how little Kareena Kapoor is regarded as an actress. Not just in this space (in this instance) but everywhere. There is even casual sexism in calling her horse or giraffe faced(!). But I’ve been a big fan of her performances in Dev, Omkara and Jab We Met. Hell, I loved her in that scene in 3 Idiots where her character, inebriated beyond measure, breaks into Rancho’s hostel. It’s fantastic and may be hammy for some but just hits the right notes. Isn’t she the first post 90s performer to choose a fine balance in films way before Vidyas/ Deepikas/ Kanganas/ Anushkas/ Sonams (ahem) took advantage of the changing scenes and subjects of Bollywood. Yes there was Kajol and Rani but their performances seldom went hand in hand with the quality of film. Having said that, I don’t share Rangan’s views about her performance in Ki & Ka. The film was too one note and the role reversal too convenient for me to invest into it.
As for everything else, going to disclose how old I am by yearning for the good old days of this comments space. Like everything else on Internet, 6-8 years ago here was bliss and no offence to the likes of olemisstarana, Rahini, Anu et al who are amazing here. I miss rameshram (Rangan may disagree) who was a troll but at least was an intelligent one. This place deserves a better class of holy war.
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Madan
April 8, 2016
Are not other actresses also doing the same?
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sanjana
April 8, 2016
I don’t remember either PC or DP making such comments. Kangana is pretty conceited but at least she lives up to the boast with bold choices. Kareena has played it safe for a long time.
So she should make bold choices like Kangana to make catty comments?
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P
April 8, 2016
Aditya/Gradwolf:
“Isn’t she the first post 90s performer to choose a fine balance in films way before Vidyas/ Deepikas/ Kanganas/ Anushkas/ Sonams (ahem) took advantage of the changing scenes and subjects of Bollywood. ”
Abso-insertswearword-lutely. She did Chameli- a magnificient outing, Dev, Omkara and many others. In recent years post the Gori Tere Pyar Mein debacle (I personally found it quite an ok film) she has been rejecting a lot of great films, but that doesn’t mean she isn’t talented.
I also agree with BR on “Fevicol Se” and item numbers in general. To dance like that, to look desirable, to display sexiness in not just body moves but also facial expressions (ahem, looking at you, Miss Kat!) is not an easy task. Dancing to that song even at a party is so difficult. Why do people presume that dancing (in Indian movies) is not a part of acting? That its a walk in the park?
How she is in her personal life is not relevant here at all. And its not like she’s alone. Every actress bitches about every other actress, and oh, actors do it too. Surprise. Surprise. Not.
PS: My favorite part of the song is the antra starting with “Log Kehte Hain Mujhe Main Toh Hoon Namkeen Butter”- so much fun sexuality in her expressions! 🙂
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P
April 8, 2016
I would like to expand on my “older heroes and heroines who age well” comment.
From the 90s, the heroes that have survived to be big enough are SRK, Salman, Aamir, Akshay. But there were so many others who fell by the wayside. Even Salman had a lull-period of almost a decade post HDDCS until Wanted when Prabhudeva resurrected him as the man-on-the-street action hero. Akshay too had a lull period before he landed on the action hero/comedy venn diagram that he has going now.
But during the lull period too they continued to keep themselves relevant by doing significant work. None of them took a break.
Now Madhuri is my most favorite person on the face of this earth, she could have been on the top today, but the extended break she took of almost a decade made her lose relevance in the public eye- a gaze that is fickle minded at best and almost amnesiac at worst.. And also once she became a mommy, she seemed to have abandoned her sexual persona until Ghagra, but by then it was too little too late. Even I- a most ardent fan- didn’t watch either Gulaab Gang or Dedh Ishqiya.
I am really glad Kareena has not taken a break but has instead continued working and stayed relevant through her marriage. This is why her desirability has stayed intact. Its why her romancing a much younger Arjun Kapoor in a standalone movie is not weird (Ki and Ka has had a rocking first week at the box-office).
This is not meant as a judgement of women who get married and take breaks, but while you are on the break, the world moves on, and its not a queue at the railway counter where you can ask someone to save you “your place”, you decide to come back, you need to start from scratch.
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Madan
April 8, 2016
So she should make bold choices like Kangana to make catty comments?
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Madan
April 8, 2016
Why do people presume that dancing (in Indian movies) is not a part of acting?
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Amit Joki
April 8, 2016
Honest Raj: Well, yes. I am 16. Do my comments sound immature? hope they don’t.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
April 8, 2016
Amit Joki: No, you’re way too mature for your age; I mean that in a good way. I was still a kid when I was twenty-one. 🙂
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sachita
April 8, 2016
Kareena always came across as some one who didnt really explore her talent at all except for the first few films. She is hugely popular too and the commerical movies she choose werent always hits either. so didnt really understand that she didnt try anything from khan/akshay kumar movies. Anyway I guess now that is changing.
And Quite shocked to see people questioning actress continuing to act after marriage or wondering her husband’s plight or saying her choice of movies should be affected by marriage in this forum. I guess this is why I never got to see an actress like simran in movies just when she had really graduated to a finer actress. Dont get the logic. Tamil cinema has become horrible in this regard in last two decades.
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P
April 8, 2016
Madan: I was frustrated too when I heard of all the great movies that Kareena rejected. Chennai Express and Ram Leela particularly. But to demand that she not be catty about others basis that is just strange.
People’s personal behavior/comments is just that. Personal. Maybe she was jealous, maybe she was frustrated, maybe she was angry? who knows? 🙂
The point being that given she did only what she did- its amazing that she has stayed relevant and has practically shouldered at least 60% of the burden in Ki and Ka. Thats brilliant and kudos to her.
(Agree with you about Priyanka. That woman’s success befuddles me!)
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sanjana
April 8, 2016
So she should first develop a range to criticise other actors. So its ok to criticise other actors when you have range. And you will decide whether Kareena or some other actor has range. Until she or he achieves range, he or she should keep quiet and when that sacred moment happens, he or she should start criticising so that you wont have any objection.
What logic!
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olemisstarana
April 8, 2016
Amit Joki – Very difficult to phrase this without sounding condescending, so I hope you’ll take it in the spirit meant. You don’t sound 16 at all. Very invigorating, thank you.
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olemisstarana
April 8, 2016
Sanjana: May I posit something here without, hopefully sounding too confrontational? I am a little uncomfortable with the examination of Kareena’s personal life… Unless you know her on an entirely different level, the information that is available is the rediff, Star calibre gossip that is peddled to sell rags. Is it fair then, to make statements about her money and her husband’s money and her husband’s sisters’ money with such aplomb?
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Shalini
April 8, 2016
Although she isn’t a particular favorite, I feel Jaya Bhaduri/Bachchan’s cinematic career is getting a bit of short shrift here. I love this song from the 1977 film “Abhi To Jee Lein” (For Now Let Us Live) which features her in a most glamorous and romantic avatar. Post marriage and both kids, I should note.
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brangan
April 8, 2016
Kareena has given plenty of very good acting moments even if the films themselves weren’t great. And when the film was good, like Jab We Met, she’s just aces. She was great in Yuva. She was very good in that scene where the bird drops the snake in Omkara — fantastic fright on her face. I think she’s the kind of actress who needs a good director, but even then you cannot deliver if you don’t have the goods.
The scene I talk about in this review is a very difficult and nuanced one to play. On the one hand, you have to pretend you are joking with arjun about the ad. On the other, you are carefully watching him to see what he will say / do. It’s not easy and it can be easily overdone. But she walks the tightrope beatifully.
And yes, Amit Joki, those are some fantastic comments from one so young. Thanks.
And P, loved your point about kareena’s longevity. The audiences do forget easily, don’t they?
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brangan
April 8, 2016
Shalini: Thank you for reminding me of this sog. But I always thought it was RDB and just discovered (on wiki) that it’s Sapan Jagmohan. Must say they do a great RD impersonation, both in terms of the antara tune and the background music.
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Nee
April 8, 2016
“Kareena isn’t kissing Arjun. Kareena is playing a character who is kissing Arjun’s character. I think there’s a difference there.”
What about married porn stars BR. Same logic. It is the character they are playing of course but it also may not be “ok” for the husband and others in the family. Where do you draw line. At a kiss. At a hug. Thanks to you I am watching Fawad’s previous work (mostly dramas) and i am shocked at how much “hot” these foreign serials are in a much conservative atmosphere/culture where touching hands is also not possible. Even when eyes meet, it then gets shockingly sexy/hot.
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sanjana
April 9, 2016
Many are saying that Kareena married Saif for money. That made me think about how she will benefit actually. According to muslim law or according to common inheritance laws? Kareena and Saif must have earned almost equally by working in the film industry. Saif inherited his father’s by becoming Nawab of Pataudi and inheriting all the ancestral property. He must be like a trustee taking care of it for his son. Whether the daughters have any claim, I do not know unless they are given some part of the wealth. I dont read filmi rags. I read ET and the like. As I myself has some meagre property as a middleclass person, I have to make a will and nominate. Instead of leaving everyone in confusion carrying the death certificate in their hands, better to make these arrangements when still alive. I am interested in property matters as such and I kept wondering about these things. And now Panama Papers disclosures which are rattling governments allover the world. Filmstars are also citizens and I treat them like that only. Nowadays everything is in public domain.
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P
April 9, 2016
BR: Good you brought up Yuva. She is magnificent as Meera in that scene where Arjun’s face is hurt and she’s leaving to get married, a simple purple saree with a chex blouse. The expression on her face- the pain, the anger, the happiness, the pure grief- super. Superb.
Thank you for that compliment! 😀 An audience is that way. It is what it is- even in non-visual careers like marketing (which is why I am terrified of ever taking a break 😉 ) I also think Kareena’s pairing with Arjun being taken so well has to do with evolving audiences. Remember when Madhuri paired up with Akshaye it was almost blasphemous because she was older by seven years and had acted with his father! I am glad she did though cause we got the senseless but fab party song “Baby Dont Break My Heart” out of it 🙂 (Side note: I miss Madhuri! 😦 😦 )
I am just bored of people comparing male and female actresses and their careers. Its not SRK’s fault that Madhuri took a break. I am sure he would prefer acting with her to acting with some of the mannequins that he’s forced to act with, but movies need to make money too- for that actors need to be relevant and stay in the public eye. If SRK, Salman, Akshay have women vying to be their heroines its not their fault- they have worked hard(in SRK’s case with less than 4-5 hours of sleep daily) to get where they are. Frankly if I was a young heroine like Deepika, I would be dying to work with him too. I mean, I grew up thinking he was the god of romance, why would I want to miss the chance to romance him? 🙂 😉
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Rahul
April 9, 2016
P, the only contrary example I can think of is Vinod Khanna. He had an okayish career after returning. But according to some he may have been bigger than Amitabh if he had not taken a break of six years.
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Akhilan
April 9, 2016
‘Two, it’s not easy to do a Fevicol se. You need to have the shape for it. You need the sex appeal. You need to be able to dance. A Shabana cannot pull this off’.
Burst out laughing at that BR. Whilst reading your comment I was actually picturing Shabana doing a Fevicol Se and now can’t seem to get that rather unpleasant but hilarious image out of my head…!! Thanks BR, this is all your fault BR…!!
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Madan
April 9, 2016
But to demand that she not be catty about others basis that is just strange.
@ sanjana: See above. And pl also note that I’d rather they – none of them – get catty at all. If you want to continue to deliberately over-simplify what I wrote just so you can defend Kareena, pl be my guest. My point is pretty clear. She can say whatever she likes and I can also say I find it stupid. I have the right. You can’t ask me why I said it, you can argue that it’s not haughty or whatever (but you aren’t even trying, which is funny).
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apala
April 9, 2016
BR-sir, haven’t watched the movie with too many projects to juggle with and travel, but the review was so beautifully written – it was such a delightful and fulfilling read….. Thank you BR!
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Amit Joki
April 9, 2016
Nee: Your likening of porn to films is itching me to liken your sense to that of a mule’s. No offence intended, mule.
Come on. Really? You watch the porn for its plot? Pphaaaa vara vara unga comedy timing chance e illa pa. And why do you have to worry so much about someone being kissed, when their partners are not. Why are YOU keen on drawing the lines in someone else’s lives? Not that their act is shaking the economic foundation of Narendra Modi led India, so why not let them be?
Olemisstarana: I will take that as a compliment and you will surely get a chance to see that I am really 16. You can google me even. I am popular enough that my name search will lead only to me 😀😀😀.
BR: That is the greatest compliment on writing for me coming from you. Thanks. BTW, have written some fictional short stories, would ya help me get them published, sir 😉?
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Nee
April 9, 2016
I think Malaika Arora would have done fevicol much better than fabby bellied kareena ever did. If you take the fair skin out (since that is the standard of beauty in India from fawad to kareena..all have only one thing in common), she is just below average looking. The roles she has been shinning are mainly because of capable directors baki she doesn’t know any acting-shakting and mainly looks like a 5 year old who is giddlily happy to be on stage where everyone is looking at them and clapping. If you want to see good actors then watch sanam (pakistani actress) and some others, they are really-really good!
P.S: BR, you have giving cheating husbands/wives a great line, “darling woh toh mai sirf acting kar raha tha..character mai tha…it wasn’t me” lmao
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sanjana
April 9, 2016
Mine is reaction. When someone brings about Kareena marryng for easy property, I reacted.
As for what I read, rags or serious stuff, how someone can make assumptions? Why to be so judgmental about rags?
We are in internet age and lots of information is available. We try to put two and two together. As long as we dont go to their bedrooms, its ok if we make some generalised statements about their financial status.
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Madan
April 9, 2016
If SRK, Salman, Akshay have women vying to be their heroines its not their fault
I don’t really understand why the movie world is so male dominated. They’re just leaving a huge market unexplored. If they made more woman-centric films, more women would turn up at the cinema halls. And there are enough working women today who can afford to pay to watch a film. So citing economics – which apologists for this male domination are wont to do – seems to be a poor argument to justify sticking to their reflexes and not trying new things.
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kalamurth
April 9, 2016
Towards century.
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P
April 9, 2016
@Rahul: That’s such a great example, and it completely proves my point about public memory. Be it Vinod Khanna or Madhuri Dixit- you take a break and you’re out. You can come back- but nobody is saving you your place. The world has moved on.
@Madan: I do think personally that Kareena is way too gossipy even for a filmy person 🙂 But then its none of my business. And I do like it when she gets catty about Priyanka- cause I dislike that woman myself 😛 😛 But you are right- you have every right to think its stupid.
Re: Older women and younger men- I think that’s starting to happen 🙂 Ki and Ka. The Tamil movie Vinnaithandi Varuvaya. Then there’s Anushka Shetty who has acted with a much younger Rana Daggubatti.
PS: I wonder why people only bring up SRK or SK when talking about heroes who romance much younger heroines. I heard so much whining during Chennai Express where Deepika was paired with SRK, but like zero noise when she was paired with Irrfan in Piku. Irfan is literally the same age as SRK 🙂 Maybe arty heroes get more leeway than mainstream ones, huh? 🙂
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sanjana
April 9, 2016
sanjana: See above. And pl also note that I’d rather they – none of them – get catty at all. If you want to continue to deliberately over-simplify what I wrote just so you can defend Kareena, pl be my guest. My point is pretty clear. She can say whatever she likes and I can also say I find it stupid. I have the right. You can’t ask me why I said it, you can argue that it’s not haughty or whatever (but you aren’t even trying, which is funny).
Did I say you dont have rights to say whatever you wish to say? Your point was something else. Now you are trying to divert. Your point was that Kareena should develop a range to criticise other actresses. I did not ask you. Anyone can say anything and that right can be exercised by me too. I just drew some conclusions from what you said. And I tried to develop that range thing and the eligibility criteria to criticise.
What is so funny if I dont want to say whether it is haughty or not. I dont care it either way.
By the way I am not a big fan of anyone to defend them to death.
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Madan
April 9, 2016
Maybe arty heroes get more leeway than mainstream ones, huh? 🙂
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Imemyself
April 9, 2016
Regarding the male/female disparity in movies, please read an interesting study done in Hollywood movies.
http://polygraph.cool/films/
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olemisstarana
April 9, 2016
Nee: Apologies for having called you carrion earlier. It was completely out of place. Carrion are the garbage persons of the ecosystem who provide a very useful service. So again, apologies.
Also,
“P.S: BR, you have giving cheating husbands/wives a great line, “darling woh toh mai sirf acting kar raha tha..character mai tha…it wasn’t me” lmao”
No. ………..No no no… excuse ME.
LMYFAO. Also, ROFL, and SM(damn)H, and WTF as well.
You do know Star Wars wasn’t real, right? There is no death star. ET never really came to earth, Aishwarya Rai wasn’t really Jodhaa, she was just acting. Time travel isn’t a technology… yet. Arnold Schwarzenegger didn’t melt into that pit of molten steel at the end of T2, he went on to become the governor of California and father (at least) one illegitimate son. Also, he never was a cop – Kindergarten, Last Action Hero, Raw Deal, The Running Man, End of Days or otherwise. Gandhi really did die, so I can understand your confusion – these concepts are really sophisticated, but you see the movie was based on real life, so Gandhi died, but the actor portraying Gandhi – Sir Benjamin Kingsley – survived the shooting which was done by using a fake gun and fake blood. The supporting cast helped build the atmosphere as well. So, once again, repeat after me… Gandhi (may god rest his soul) = dead. Sir Ben Kingsley = alive, for now (don’t get confused when he dies… all people die.) Also, Edward Cullen really isn’t a vampire, Mola Ram didn’t really tear out a live bleeding heart and while I’m at it, Santa isn’t real and your puppy doesn’t live in a farm upstate. Okay, maybe not the last thing, that was just too mean. Fido really is upstate, the farmer is very nice to him and he plays all day in a field of buttercups by a stream.
Also what are you doing here? No. Really… what.are.you.doing.here.
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Madan
April 9, 2016
Your point was that Kareena should develop a range to criticise other actresses.
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P
April 9, 2016
Actually Madan come to think of it, post Dev, Chameli, Jab We Met, Hulchul and Refugee- Kareena has every right to call a one note “actress” like Priyanka as a non-actress 🙂
If you want range, that’s more than enough range 😉
And hey, being catty is a god-given right. 😀
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Madan
April 9, 2016
Kareena has every right to call a one note “actress” like Priyanka as a non-actress
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Nee
April 9, 2016
Why Joki? Are they (the porn stars) not acting? That is news to me! What a contradictory statement. The kiss of an actor is acting but that of a porn star is real. Wah-wah…kya baat hai. Double standards!!
On garbage experts, mule experts, I stay away…The garbage expert will stink having to examine garbage day in and out. Same with mule expert. I chose to close my nose/eyes and move on. I don’t bother to read you, you should prolly do the same!
I reserve to have my views , you have a right not to read them!
And I do whatever, it is BR’s blog…what right do YOU have to question why I am here!!
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sanjana
April 9, 2016
Madan, why you are losing temper? Cool down. It is not necessary to win every argument.
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sanjana
April 9, 2016
Why should I say anything about Kareena’s catty comment? She might have some reasons and I do not know about those reasons.
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sanjana
April 9, 2016
Dont take my words too seriously. I dont take myself seriously. Today I may say something and tomorrow I may contradict myself. I enjoy reading comments and sometimes I react. After some point I dont want to continue reacting even if that means I dont have the last word. Life has more important things to look forward to than winning some argument and losing sleep over it.
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Vidhya
April 10, 2016
Im a 38 year old lady, from Madras, liberal (atleast in my self-perception) – married to someone who thinks Sunny Leone is a thorough professional, that a much-married Kareena’s onscreen smooches are pathbreaking and yet the same someone who would get all worked up when I have longish chats with a male friend.
So it is good that people (take a bow Mr. Raj, Nee & others) express their opinion, misconceptions notwithstanding. It gives us alternative-thinkers (no, let’s not get into who is right or wrong in this, yet. What’s perhaps commonplace in the US may not find takers in Ulundoorpet) to point out the more rational viewpoints (as Ms P & Mr Amit have been doing so well).
I wouldn’t resort to sarcasm or knee jerk defenses, coz hey I live with a guy who is a thorough gentleman, yet who still has these prudish sentiments atleast for those in his innercircle, if not for Kareena – hell, if he were in this forum, he would be the first to rebuke any kind of sexism. As much I wish, this parochial thought flow isnt going to go away in one sweep. It takes time & repeated emphasis on the logical strain vis-a-vis the traditional DNA.
Naa solla vardhu ennana – lets not expect the world to jump to the part where a 50+ Madhuri Dixit delivers a 100 Cr BB as the protagonist, while smooching Fawad Khan on the posters, with universal acceptance (heck even Rajnikanth gets dissed for his nubile heroines – atleast by a few – even during his Yejaman days). For now, ippodhaikki, let’s be glad a Neerja or Ki Ka makes it big albeit with questions from many on the age gap, smooches etc
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Vidhya
April 10, 2016
This whole political correctness thing stumps me. Coming from a background where family-planning for a newly married couple gets done on a Whatsapp group & me being the karuppu Vidhya, as against another Vidhya in the family who the non-karuppu one – it still gives me jitters when I see sanitised words & thoughts & reactions. Ennamo poda madhava.
Naalu ber naalu vidhama pesuvaa – isnt it a given?
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sachita
April 10, 2016
Just caught the movie. In the theater I watched women swooned over Kabir(not Arjun ofcourse).
“How many women who do the things he’s doing end up as famous? How unfair that when a man deigns to undertake what’s traditionally labelled a woman’s job, he still comes out on top. Or to put it a little differently, when a woman takes on what’s traditionally labelled a man’s job, she still has to share the spotlight.”
Dont think Kia’s problem is he did a women’s job and became famous, her issue is he doesnt do much except for mundane household duties and has no desire according to him for anything more and he gets fame. He doesnt want it nor does anything worthy so why are people giving him the time. This success and fame are something she has always and worked for.
She wasnt crusading for a overall feminist cause. It is her life and her ambition that is the focus for her. Women’s role or mens role wasnt her issue at all.
Your explanation for man child makes perfect sense but while at the theater i just saw it as easy going and quite appealing.
“At some level, she still doesn’t get it ”
PS: so want to get a segway after this movie.
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Madan
April 10, 2016
sanjana: Fair enough, maybe I am not accustomed to this style of argumentation as I tend to respond rather than react to what I read. It’s fine then, you vented and I have said my ripostes and we are good. It’s not about winning or losing an argument. I just disliked your trying to pick my tone apart instead of focusing on the content of my argument, nothing more.
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Madan
April 10, 2016
It gives us alternative-thinkers (no, let’s not get into who is right or wrong in this, yet. What’s perhaps commonplace in the US may not find takers in Ulundoorpet) to point out the more rational viewpoints (as Ms P & Mr Amit have been doing so well).
Besides, there is nothing inherently progressive or regressive about a married man or woman kissing her acting colleagues for the camera. It is a personal decision based (hopefully) on the comfort of both spouses. So as far as I am concerned, I am indifferent to Kareena choosing to act in films and kiss actors. The only thing that matters is whether Saif is comfortable with that and it also matters only to the two of them, not to me. Their life, their business.
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Amit Joki
April 10, 2016
First things first. Metaphorically using a mule to convey that one sounds stupid doesn’t make him/her an expert on the metaphor one is using.
Secondly, it is magnificently remarkable how you chose to ignore the rest of my comment where I talk on what right you have on drawing lices in other’s lives. Wah wah kya baat! Ek dum jackass wala beating around the bush.
Yes, it is acting. In the sense it is unreal. But in a very limited sense. All they are required to have is a great body and to be able tp make aome orgasmic faces (again no judgements please, it is just my vocabulary).
I would not be surprised if you say Deepika and Sunny are of the same calibre when it comes to acting.
Vidhya: Ah the Mr in Mr. Amit sounds so awkward. May I request you to call me just Amit? Thank you. 😁
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mainland
April 10, 2016
Since people have taken pains to post videos of Kareena’s dance numbers and have explained in detail about the effort it takes to maintain her figure and her sexy facial expressions and stuff, I just wanted to say that I never said I am against her or anyone else doing item dances (that is if anyone had that misconception from my post). It is so obvious she does it so well that I didn’t feel the need to reiterate it in my post. Also like someone up thread said we expect most of our heroines to do this and do this well. It is a given. It is almost like stating the obvious. Also I want to make it clear that I never said I want her to do art movies.
My gripe was only that she has been playing it safe since the past few years and I wished she balanced the dance numbers and Khan vehicles with some commercial movies that was offered to her on a platter, in the past .It would have been fun to see her in more movies and I took her name especially coz she does bollywood better than a lot of others .
A lot of top actresses from the previous generations did a few heroine-centric movies with younger upcoming heroes towards the tail end of their career…before they fade into oblivion or start doing niche movies that aren’t commercially viable. But things are definitely changing and looking up with more heroines taking risks and more women-centric movies seeing success at the BO.
And agree with the following statement
“Besides, there is nothing inherently progressive or regressive about a married man or woman kissing her acting colleagues for the camera.”
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P
April 10, 2016
BR: I watched the movie today with mom and we both loved it. Arjun Kapoor is so wonderful as Kabir- I want a husband like him now 😀 😛 Its nice fun, and I may someday buy the DVD just to rewatch it….
Vidhya: “This whole political correctness thing stumps me. ….. – it still gives me jitters when I see sanitised words & thoughts & reactions. Ennamo poda madhava.”
I can assure you that I am not being politically correct in this matter and I am surprised to be described as such. This is how I actually think and am. I am a 30 year old dark skinned south Indian and my mother has told me not to worry about getting married until I find “the one”. She even told me I can choose to have a surrogate baby “just like SRK”. LOL. That’s the kind of background I am from.
I am politically incorrect in a lot of ways- I am not a feminist for starters 😉 There’s more, but you may find it easier to read the Bajirao Mastani thread for that 😀
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silverambrosia
April 10, 2016
Would actually not mind seeing this film…. looks quite fun.
Mainland: I don’t have strong views on Kareena either way and think that she’s actually quite a good actress….who could have done a lot more…she does seem to play it very safe as u said and rarely, if ever, seems to have a gracious word to say about other actresses…and they’re not all catty and out to undermine each other. Agree broadly though with the gist of what you’re saying… and do admire the likes of kangana a lot more. Other point of contention would be re Ekta Kapoor…I don’t think it’s just about being in the arena and taking on the boys club that makes a woman’s career graph per se admirable… I think it’s ultimately about your work and what you’re putting forth, whatever your gender/ race/demographic etc…
Madan: Agree with your last comment. Lolz….as if it isn’t intimidating enough commenting on a blog as erudite as this one with many fantastic regular commentors… It’s arguable that’s its a free for all and if a particular commentor can’t stand the heat they should just get out…. but there’s something to be said for maintaining basic civility and not making broad assumptions about other people who don’t agree with you and subjecting them to ad hominen attacks. I think it takes away from the discussion when that becomes a regular thing in the comments section. If u vehemently disagree with someone demolish their arguments; that can be done without aggressiveness of tone.
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mainland
April 10, 2016
Since politically incorrect statements are received with no judgements here. I just wanted to say that
“What if Amitabh had chosen to give up his career, so Jaya could wave to her fans gathered outside their home every Sunday?”
this scenario would have never happened. I don’t think any actress from that generation enjoyed that kind of adulation from Indian audience. Even if Amithabh sacrificed his career so Jaya can shine and do more work, I don’t think her career graph would have been this prolific, as Amithabh’s is.
I just wanted to say this because whenever this question is asked to Jaya about her SELF IMPOSED break from her career in an interview I see her going into a monologue talking about her career sacrifices while Amithabh sits there looking guilty.
Also about the breaks heroines/heroes take. Do they take a self imposed break because they are not getting good roles or are they getting less roles coz they take a break. I know Amithabh took a break too when he tried to live in NY for a while and he took the break coz his career was going through a dip. But he came back, reinvented himself and went on to do wonderful work that were successes at the BO and the audience lapped him up.
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mainland
April 10, 2016
silverambrosia
“they’re not all catty and out to undermine each other. ”
I did not say this.
” don’t think it’s just about being in the arena and taking on the boys club that makes a woman’s career graph per se admirable…”
I did not say that that is the ONLY thing admirable. It was a broad statement about more women in positions of power or decision making places that can affect a change in the present scenario.
That doesn’t mean I want all the actresses to become EKta Kapoors. I am happy if they do good work in their field….men or women.
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Madan
April 10, 2016
@mainland: It is inconceivable that an actress in the 70s could have enjoyed as much adulation as AB, so agreed on the first count. As prolific as AB…who knows. Jaya Bachchan was doing better in her career than AB when they married. Had AB stayed home to raise the kids, she would have pursued her career more seriously. There’s nothing to suggest she would have slacked off. Whether the industry would have found suitable roles for a middle aged actress is another matter.
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mainland
April 10, 2016
Madan…I did not mean she would have slacked off. I was looking at the career graph of some of the other actresses or even actors of the time and I dont see anyone’s’ career reaching the heights that AB’s did.
Agree with this part…
” Whether the industry would have found suitable roles for a middle aged actress is another matter.”
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Sifter
April 11, 2016
@Vidhya – Why are you connecting acting in movies as in a profession to your personal life? How you or anyone live their personal lives is not how it started and should not be any business of the rest. If that is political correctness to you, diss it all you want 🙂 I agree with you when you said “For now, ippodhaikki, let’s be glad a Neerja or Ki Ka makes it big albeit with questions from many on the age gap, smooches etc.”
@P – Yes, we all know by now that you are politically incorrect and not a feminist. Good for you, and no one is forcing these on you; now can it be laid to rest? 🙂 🙂
PS – Your mother seems to be a wonderful person!
Genuinely wondering if ‘ad hominem’ is the kind of IN THING just like the ‘hate political correctness’ and ‘am not a feminist’ now.
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Naveen
April 11, 2016
from what i have read around, Padmini was 36 or so and married when doing Thillana Moganambal. Sridevi too was 35+ when doing Lamhe, and ofcourse not married then. Sowcar janaki used to look for work (mainly to feed her family ) with two kids in hand; thta is how she went to meet KB. Sridevi acted with many dad/son hierarchy ( NTR, Balakrishna, ANR, nagarjuna etc )
Nargis acted wit Sunil dutt as mom and spouse/lover, whom she ultimately married in real life too
Kareen could have been much more than what she is now. PC, Deeps, Kangana are really pushing the bar hard, on their own too.
overall this thread is a good PR for this movie. inspires one to watch this which i would skipped otherwise
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Silverambrosia
April 11, 2016
Mainland:
“they’re not all catty and out to undermine each other. ”
I never said that u said that. It’s a response to how some of the commenters above have reacted to Kareena being described as catty.
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Vidhya
April 11, 2016
@P: I can only say with some vague certainty that my comment (sent at 2 am this morning) was not directed at anyone in particular. But I can say with absolute certainty that it was not and cannot be directed at you – whose comments I have read avidly (from the Punee days) and liked (from the upvote-downvote days :))
@Sifter: Wow that is a very pertinent comment – on the incongruence of connecting movies / profession with mypersonal front. I agree with you on that – in theory. But in reality, there is a wafer thin, blurry line of separation between one’s personal and professional storyboards – atleast in this part of the world. So cross references are inevitable right?
Yes, this kind of egalitarian outlook should first start with the professional space. But until that starts from within our mindspace, what purpose would it serve other than creating more two-faced people.
And to ensure that these concepts hit the right chord with people, should we not custom-fit the ideas to suit this culture which obviously has starkly contrasting principles as opposed to the places where these ideas (of feminism etc) originated? This is not anti-feminism. If a person asks why Kareena does onscreen kisses post-marriage, the response that if Saif does it, so would she – may not resonate with his mindset. Which is why I liked how Amit tried to deconstruct the situation as a professional act with no emotional connect. But even that got rebutted as to how such a professional mask can help those who would like to overstep their marital boundaries. Would this question come up in the western scenario? We are light-years behind them, yet we would like to be in the same position as they are today when it comes to aspects like feminism. Start slow, accelerate when the going is good, know to veer from speed-breakers and signal-violaters – if you get what I mean. Just like navigating in T.Nagar traffic 🙂
With political correctness – Im too tired to keep up with the changing principles of correctness, that I would rather take some outrage on it, than be on tenterhooks. Coz I know I have nothing against people / principles that dont sync with me / mine. I may make a silly joke on a person with alternate-sexuality – but am ready to take jibes on my expanding waistline, as long as it is harmless. (harmless as defined by me – not some other fat person. I mean, weight challenged person!!)
Nandri hai 🙂
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Nee
April 11, 2016
“We are light-years behind them…”
Disagree. Disagree. It is they who are light years behind. 😉
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olemisstarana
April 12, 2016
Nee: You misunderstand…. again. I am not asking you NOT to come here, I was merely asking you WHAT you were doing here. Apart from liberally dropping your little goat pellets of “wisdom,” i.e.
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Sifter
April 12, 2016
@Vidya- if there is a wafer thin, blurry line of separation between one’s own professional and personal storyboards (as you say); don’t you think it is up to the individuals themselves to deal with it? Why is upto me or you or anyone else to cross reference or stand in judgement when it is not our own lives?
Why are we so interested with the thought and question the appropriateness of a real life married woman/actress kissing her onscreen only husband? Most of the actors do it; married or otherwise. Most of the actors romance a heroine who in reality could be 10 or 30 years younger (daughter’s or granddaughters age)…on screen. I do not see such interests or questions (okay, now a few have started questioning) being raised or the morality clause being screamed at them or discussions about reel life blurring with real life happening around it.
I do get your drift, but this is not a question about feminism or anti. Neither it is about where this so called ‘feminism’ originated. And why should it not resonate with his mindset? Are you saying that a married female actor kissing any male actor will somehow lead her astray as against the reverse? My point is that whether there is an emotional connect or lack of it while they act, it is not any of our business. Whether such a professional mask helps someone to overstep their boundaries or not, it is again, none of our business. It amuses me to the hilt that such points of view never come up or bandied about or discussed in so much detail when it is married/divorced/mature (Old? Lol) man kissing a much younger/unmarried woman. Why should we still tip-toe with these discussions around such thoughts, behaviours, and actions anymore? You are again not getting it…it is not about the changing principles of political correctness at all.
I will not comment whether we would like to be on the same position as ‘they are’ on aspects like feminism; that is going to be one long winded, never ending discussion 🙂
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Vidhya
April 12, 2016
@Sifter: Agreed. And may your tribe increase. I get your point & I hope we reach that desired level of civility sometime.
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tonks
April 12, 2016
I usually like BR’s Hindi movie reviews here in the blog much better than the official newspaper ones. Actually there’s no comparison : while the former is like consuming a delicious, elaborate, full course meal, the latter feels like an unsatisfying quick snack. But I rather liked the Hindu official reviewer’s take on this movie. It puts forth some interesting thoughts :
http://m.thehindu.com/features/cinema/ki-ka-review-role-reversal-or-celebration-of-clichs/article8422884.ece
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MANK
April 12, 2016
Oh man, this is some seriously weird stuff that is discussed here 😛 I was wondering how this thread hit 100 odd comments. 🙂
All this talk of kissing and husband &wife stuff reminds me of the first kissing scene in indian cinema. Devika Rani kissing Himanshu Rai who was her real life husband for full 4 mins in 1933.i guess it is still the longest kiss on indian screen.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
April 12, 2016
MANK: I did some research on Devika Rani three years back. Actually, the first kiss in Indian cinema dates back to 1929! It was a silent film, and the actors involved were not real-life couple. In fact, there’s one more film (can’t recall the name though) before Karma. Those days, silent films produced in India were mostly British/German co-productions. Plus, cinema wasn’t a mainstream mode of entertainment. So onscreen kissing was no big deal then.
Devika Rani was truly a wonderful woman. She went abroad to learn filmmaking and established a studio in Bombay. She deservedly became the first recipient of the Phalke Award!
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MANK
April 12, 2016
Honest Raj , hey i didnt know that. thanks for the info.
ya you are right about the films of that time.cinema was just coming up. theater was the primary mode of entertainment.
Ditto about Devika Rani,- i believe she studied under giants like Fritz Lang- and not just owning a studio, she launched the careers of such great stars like Ashok Kumar and Dilip Kumar.
come to think of it , she had more power than any other heroine in the history of indian cinema.or perhaps even world cinema. i cant think of any other actress who owned her own studio, except Mary pickford .From Devika Rani to the current crop of heroines, its been quite a fall for the hindi film heroine.
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Nee
April 13, 2016
If you lead a public life, you will be evaluated. Period
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olemisstarana
April 13, 2016
If you say dumb things, you will be evaluated. Period.
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Filistine
April 14, 2016
“Devika Rani was truly a wonderful woman. She went abroad to learn filmmaking and established a studio in Bombay. She deservedly became the first recipient of the Phalke Award!”
Maybe an award instituted in her name would have been more appropriate
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sanjana
April 14, 2016
Bengali women are like that. Whether it is Devika Rani or Aparna Sen or Suchitra Sen. No doubt Sarat chandra chatterjee, Tagore and Ray were inspired by them.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
April 14, 2016
Maybe an award instituted in her name would have been more appropriate
Idha pathi naan Delhi la pesuren!
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Rahini David
April 14, 2016
Honest Raj: Ram Murali illatha kuraikku ipo neenga thaan eedu kudukureenga. 🙂
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
April 16, 2016
Rahini David: Ha ha. Naanum avanga ellarayum romba miss panren.
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P
April 18, 2016
Hey Sifter: Just making it clear, that’s all 🙂 And yep, my mommy stronggeeessstt!
Vidhya: Nandri 🙂
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anandkumarrs
April 19, 2016
Excellent review Rangan. While on this pls read my new post – Ki, Ka & Family on evolving urban marital relationships.
Feedback most welcome. Thanks
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blurb
June 12, 2016
Boy, I didn’t know this thread had so many comments — for another lazy Sunday afternoon 🙂
Loved the review. 🙂
I find it a bit puzzling that you start the 5th paragraph by saying Kia is infinitely more mature than Kabir. You do back it up with several points. I find myself using those exact points, but only to highlight that Kia is the immature one.
Also, to me, it seemed the story is about Kia. It is about her transformation, and her becoming more comfortable with the idea of a house-husband. To me, it seemed that the movies was saying it has become easier to accept women in roles which are generally ascribed to men (career oriented, achiever, go-getter). It still not that easy to accept men in roles that have been generally ascribed to women (nurturing).
I loved the letter written to Kia by Jaya Bachchan. That sums up the message (I did find this to be a message movie, and this letter to be carrying that message 🙂 ). We do see men being comfortable with having a career-oriented better half. I am not saying it is the norm — far from it, but we do see it happening. But the vice versa is not very common, no? House-husbands? Stay-at-home-dads? I think it movie said that the vice versa is not very common because there is so much judgement surrounding it.
And Kia’s character. What a lovely character! Several layers, and quite gray. She actually comes off as the villain for most of the second half, no?
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venkatesh
June 30, 2016
Oh dear.
I came to this thread after a long time because i saw the movie yesterday.
I had originally written the “Was Kareena not too old for Arjun and is that sexist?” without actually seeing the movie or reading BR’s review or knowing anything about it. I had only seen the trailer and made the assumption that this is a typical rom-com.
My intention was simply to state that she looks older than the hero and she does. Now after having seen the movie, i realise that its a crucial plot point that she is older and more mature. And the casting is perfectly fine.
My intention in no-way was to unleash a war of the sexes.
I am appalled by the comments on Kareena;s personal life, the “progressiveness” of Saif, the fuckability of women, the desirability of older women or lack thereof etc. etc. Dear me.
Serves me right i suspect. , from now on , no commenting without actually having watched the fucking film. And it was not that great of a film in the first place.
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