I am a happy man these days. My DTH provider is now offering me Jaya Max as a part of the package I have already subscribed to. Why Jaya Max? Because it plays Ilayaraja tracks mornings 7 to 8 and nights 9 to 10. Watching a TV channel to listen to music may seem an antiquated idea in the age of streaming and customised playlists but when I am gulping down breakfast and rushing to office, I actually prefer letting the songs gently intrude my ears rather than spending time on selecting songs on making a playlist.
So…the other day, this early 90s song called Adho Mega Oorvolam came on. I confess to having watched this film in my school days and, as with many other films that Ilayaraja scored music for, only remember the music now. Rendered by Mano, the song has a gentle albeit stately 3/4 tabla beat and a faux-classical orientation. You know, the kind of track that would befit royal attire and sets and which only requires the hero to strike a suitably contemplative pose. Turns out that is pretty much how the song is picturised (except that actor Shiva’s purportedly royal attire pales in comparison to the sherwanis sported by grooms these days).
For some reason, I struggle to concentrate past the halfway mark when it comes to this song. Part of it is the lack of clarity in Mano’s enunciation compared to S P Balasubramaniam and also the former’s lack of expression (a complaint that would be frequently repeated by listeners from the 90s and onwards with regard to Raja’s compositions). But part of it is also an ennui. They say familiarity breeds contempt and perhaps the song’s approach is too familiar to me. It’s a template that goes back to the 1960s – think Jo Baat Tujhme Hain. It’s a beautiful melody in its own right but predictable, whether in terms of the mood, the settings or even the flow of the melody. Predictable every step of the way….
And as these thoughts came to my mind, I had a eureka moment (though, unlike Archimedes, I was already in full formal attire). This was it. This was why A R Rahman ousted Ilayaraja as the top dog. Let me go a step further: the reason why a Rahman had to happen.
Discussing the Raja-Rahman transition remains a painful process for many Raja fans to date. Usually, all of the blame is laid on resentful, vindictive directors and producers and none on Ilayaraja. On the flipside, the transition is attributed to Rahman’s superior sound engineering, his more minimalistic approach which was a contrast to Raja’s complexity and the contemporary beats he brought to Tamil music for the first time.
While these may be valid reasons as far as they go, they are not very intuitive. Nobody was thinking deeply about Rahman’s sound engineering when they embraced the Roja soundtrack. It was, I suspect, something more fundamental and perhaps I’ve stumbled on it while listening to Adho Megha Oorvalam. That is that people simply wanted to hear a new way to express. Be it love, heartbreak, anger, pain or whatever. As inventive as Ilayaraja was musically, by the time of the early 90s, he no longer surprised the audience with the way he approached an emotion, at least not as often as he did in the beginning. Again, familiarity breeds contempt.
It is often forgotten whilst discussing musical intricacies threadbare that all the music is intended to evoke a particular expression. Rahman’s freshness was most evident in just the way he said the words, “I love you” so to speak as opposed to Ilayaraja. At last and after many years, the audience heard a new voice and they were excited (understatement).
And this is how Rahman delivered much-needed feedback to Ilayaraja. As long as he was the top dog, Ilayaraja was constrained to repeat himself…by directors and producers who wanted him to give them a song that resembled some earlier hit of this. He has ranted against this many times in interviews. Rahman’s success delivered the unambiguous message that the audience didn’t want more Adho Mega Oorvalams in spite of whatever may be the musical merits thereof. More of the same, however good it may be, becomes a drag.
If in 2012, Ilayaraja could come up with a Sayndhu Sayndhu, it is at least partly because Rahman’s success liberated him to search afresh for new ways to express It is fully to his credit that he succeeded where many yesteryear composers failed in coming up with a new idiom of expression that still accommodated enough Ilayaraja tricks for us to recognise his voice. Like Paul McCartney singing Wings songs instead of Beatles. Still McCartney but very different.
Some Raja fans have of course never made peace with this metamorphosis of his music and yearn for the golden melodies of yore. Me, I know what I don’t want and that is another Adho Megha Oorvalam!
Authored by Madan Mohan, recreational tennis hack in the early morning, chartered accountant by day and wannabe writer by night.
Baradwaj Rangan 
Santosh Kumar T K
April 8, 2017
OMG, what a field laden with what potent mines. All the best.
For a moment I wondered what BR was smoking… or eating. Then I saw the author’s name.
Brace yourself, dear sir, the nom_d_plums of this world are not very forgiving. 🙂 🙂 🙂
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brangan
April 8, 2017
Santosh Kumar T K: This is a question about the very nature of reading, so forgive me if I’m asking something that’s terribly obvious.
But the post title begins with “Readers Write In…”
Doesn’t that tell you it’s not mine? How do you go from that to “I wondered what BR was smoking…”?
Genuine question. I’m really curious 🙂
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Santosh Kumar T K
April 8, 2017
honestly i’m new to this by-invitation column series, and although very basic, it does take time getting used to. this is still your space. 🙂
yes, the title is very obvious and mea culpa.
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Suresh
April 8, 2017
Standard comedy piece. The year 1991. Eeramana Rojave a bumper musical hit, so people were still buying into the standard 3/4 beats and faux classical. 1991. The year that also saw (brace yourself) Dharmadurai, Pudhu Nellu Pudhu Naathu, Chinna Thambi, En Raasavin Manasile, Gopura Vaasalile, Captain Prabhakaran, Pudhiya Raagam, Thandhu Vitten Unnai, Idhayam,,… among many others. And THALAPATHI. And GUNA. That’s a lifetime discography for any composer to preen & celebrate. All in one year. Box office superhits, musical blockbusters, evergreen albums, BGM goldmines, teakadai faves .. all in there. A neutral listener can pick inventiveness, ingenuity, magic, sleight, simplicity, complexity, or whatever it is that wannabe writers spend restless nights on.
If Rahman or anyone were to have dreamt up any feedback, could’ve been only “whoa… slow down man…”.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
April 8, 2017
Madan : Great read on a Saturday morning ! You’re spot on in the corridor
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Madan
April 8, 2017
BR: Thanks a lot for publishing it. 🙂
Santoshkumar: Oh, I know all about them, have and still do regularly interact with them on the IR forums. I am not worried. Idhukellam bayandhurundhu okanda we cannot have a balanced discussion ever. Anyway, as a centrist in an increasingly polarised world, I routinely get flak from both sides so it’s nothing new.
sravishanker: Thanks. Spot on in the corridor…of uncertainty? 😛
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Madan
April 8, 2017
“A neutral listener can pick inventiveness, ingenuity, magic, sleight, simplicity, complexity” – Er, may I be so impertinent as to draw your attention to what I wrote here: ” As inventive as Ilayaraja was musically…”
So I am not talking about musical inventiveness here. But from a podhumakkal point of view, it is not very far fetched that they may yearn from a different flavour, a different idiom altogether. By the same token, what was wrong with Shankar Jaikishan’s work in the late 60s? They gave great soundtracks like Evening in Paris and Jhuk Gaya Aasman in this period and consistently delivered hits. But however ‘good’ it may have been, the audience simply grew tired of the never ending bombardment of SJ and wanted something else (that something else was RD). This imo is what happened in the IR-ARR transition. People simply grew tired of the same approach to romance or pathos. It is very difficult for a composer to start to communicate the very emotions in a distinctly different way. To IR’s credit, he has succeeded much better at this than any yesteryear composer but I really don’t think that would have happened had nobody ever displaced him as the top guy (commercially). They would have continued to make the same kind of films that had been hits earlier and demanded the same kind of songs from IR and he would have come up with some variations to satiate the hardcore fans but the casual listeners would have and did feel fatigue.
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Tambi Dude
April 8, 2017
” By the same token, what was wrong with Shankar Jaikishan’s work in the late 60s? ”
Oh I can answer that easily. All songs started sounding the same 🙂
Classic example: An Evening in Paris. To make it worse, the prioritization of the songs in that movie were same too. A coyish Sharmila walking ahead and a tharkee Shammi walking and crooning behind her. Their orchestration had grown louder. In short, like IR around 1989-90, or like ARR post 2011, they were done from creativity point of view and had nothing new to offer.
However I acknowledge that in that period they still came up with fantastic Aamarpali (1966) and Lal Pathar (1971), and few good songs (sometimes 1 good song in a movie – like Dil Ke Jaroke mein , Brahmachari ).
That said, I fully agree that transition of MDs happen all the time. SJ to LaxmiPyare and RD around 1971, MSV to IR late 1970s are good examples.
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Madan
April 8, 2017
“However I acknowledge that in that period they still came up with fantastic Aamarpali (1966) and Lal Pathar (1971), and few good songs “- And Mera Naam Joker, probably one of their finest ever. So I am not sure they were done in the absolute sense and nor are IR or ARR. But yes, we agree on the broader point that there was a sort of stagnation or, as I mentioned in the write up, an over-familiarity which began to induce boredom. This happens eventually with every composer; nobody is immune to it.
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Tambi Dude
April 8, 2017
There is one big difference between the decline of SJ and that of MSV, RDB or IR. In SJ’s case they were finished (almost overnight) as a force when Jaikishan passed away, which perversely was good otherwise they would have been giving songs like that of Sanyasi well thru 70s 🙂
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Madan
April 8, 2017
Agreed again. Shankar was the braggart but Jaikishan was the real driving force of the partnership. Even in his last days, he could deliver a hit with Zindagi Ek Safar (though I don’t like that song very much). Shankar was hopeless in Jangal Mein Mangal.
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harish ram
April 9, 2017
Many here seem to point that the end of ARR will be similar to that of IR’s as pointed out in the blog. I beg to differ, not in the end but in the how. Because, regardless of the film, ARR is hell bend on experimentation. There is something new to offer in each album. But would this trait make him the flagbearer till his real end? IMO no. He is associating only with giants. As long as they sell, ARR sells. I recently realised, it was Raanjana that was ARR’s last big hit. Everything else are in the range of disappointment to average (in terms of how the film worked). But the new hit directors seem to bring along with them a set of fantastic composers. So if filmmaking and consumption stays in this style, lack of new collaborations might bring the end to ARR era.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
April 9, 2017
Madan : The choice of song for your article was apt. Its representative of the assembly line nature of Ilaiyaraja’s compositions in the late 80s.
Pallavi – Interlude – Anu Palavi – Interlude ……
Having said that, this format was awesome in the Kovai Thambi Motherland Pictures series with Mohan (as if I need to tell you that) on the lead.
The interlude was waiting to rush in like a prize race horse straining at the harness.
(Sigh) I want a time machine.
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Madan Mohan
April 9, 2017
” Its representative of the assembly line nature of Ilaiyaraja’s compositions in the late 80s.” – Agreed. And not just pallavi-charanam but that the pallavi has to be repeated so many times (twice mostly but I think it was thrice in Mazhai Varudhu!) in each cycle and so on. And he was doing so many films so it can kind of run together even when the songs are good standalone. Unrelated but just wanted to share something that Mani told GVM in a recent interview. He and IR were in Mumbai for the recording of Dhalapathi songs. The tunes had been readied two months back. On the night before the recording, IR was writing the score for Sundari Kannal BGM (IR writes the parts for orchestra close to the recording as it depends on availability of musicians!). As he was about to do so, Mani mentioned that this was the song where they had planned battle sequences and IR was like, “It was for this song? Ohhh!” Instant heart attack for Mani that IR had forgotten. Of course, once he remembered, those magical interludes were conceived in a matter of minutes. But that gives us a glimpse of how busy IR was at that time.
“The interlude was waiting to rush in like a prize race horse straining at the harness.” – Absolutely, main course, always. That’s where the interludes in this song are a little disappointing. It goes for the film as such. I understand part of the problem is the high expectations he set but by those standards, the interludes here are alright but don’t set the world afire.
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Madan Mohan
April 9, 2017
“Many here seem to point that the end of ARR will be similar to that of IR’s as pointed out in the blog.” – But there has been no end as such for IR, at least not until the last couple of years where he seems to be running out of the last few collaborators. Maybe if Sethu Bala makes another film. Balu Mahendra is dead, Madhuranayagam is yet to be made and may never at this rate, so on and so forth. Yes, the IR era is over but so is Rahman’s. Nobody says so because no great composer has replaced him and instead Harris Jeyaraj took over leadership, competing with Yuvan earlier and nowadays with Anirudh, Imman etc. But Rahman too no longer influences future trends in Tamil music. Sure, people may point to one or two things but by that standpoint, the interludes of Ae Dil Hai Mushkil (song) were influenced by Sattru Munbu.
And that is basically the point I have made. The diametrically opposite arguments that either (a) IR’s detractors propped up overhype ARR to pull him down or (b) IR got mediocre and short sold audiences who had to be saved by white knight ARR are both exaggerated. We have to look at the big picture and not just the musical minutiae. There comes a point when the audience grows tired of listening to the same composer’s work. No amount of experimentation can mask the emotional core of his music, especially so in light music where there are greater constraints on the composer’s ambitions. These parameters have grown looser in the multiplex era plus ARR has not been so tightly wedded to his quintessence as IR was, so he has had better success in extending his career. But on the other hand, he does so few mass films, if that, and is concentrating more on the international market so he has voluntarily ceded ground for others to take over. He will get films from loyal collaborators like MR, GVM, Imtiaz as long as THEY in turn get to make films. This is how IR also survived through the 90s coming up to the mid noughties, composing for Rajkiran, Parthiban, Fasil and later on collaborated with Sethu Bala and Thangar Bachan. Rahman fans may not have paid attention to IR’s work post 1993, but for most of these years (except the ones where he was on a hiatus), IR continued to do more films than ARR.
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Balajisakkrapani
April 9, 2017
Raja is always Raja on his own no need to be Rahman. Still Songs like Adho Megha Oorvalam playing in many places in travels in public gatherings. But the songs composed by Mr.Rahman is heared far less than Raja’s that shows who is the winner Raja’s songs lasts long then Mr.Rahaman’s. Is anyone hearing a Roja or Pudhiya Mugam film songs frequently nowadays. The Answer is No. Rahman’s songs are passing clouds. When his songs failed to last long then what is purpose of his Sound Engineering however gud it may be the result is big zero. No can Replace Raja
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Vikram C
April 9, 2017
What’s the contention here? What feedback exactly Rahman’s success gave Raja? How was it manifested? No answers. General lazy theories without substantiation. As Suresh said this album was a superhit, people lapped up this song so this is not exactly the poster boy for “people got bored of IR style”
The author’s contention clearly isnt this was a lazy template song although Rahman fanboys have conveniently assumed so -which shows both their lack of musical appreciation as well as poor reading comprehension.
So whatever point the author tried to make he hasnt communicated it effectively and has only made the day of a few Rahman fans who have had a silver lining amidst their mourning through the burial ceremony of Kaattru Veliyidai. For that, I thank the author on behalf of Rahman fan community
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Madan
April 9, 2017
“Is anyone hearing a Roja or Pudhiya Mugam film songs frequently nowadays. ” – Yes, I heard Shreya Ghoshal perform (very well, I might add) a selection of 90s Rahman hits including Chinna Chinna Asai/Choti si Asha in a concert at Shanmukhananda Hall, Mumbai. And no, the crowd did not get restless (I was there so I know) and in fact highly appreciated the selection. I respect that YOU may not like his songs anymore but that by itself does not mean his songs have failed to last in the minds of ALL listeners and there is plenty of evidence to suggest they have.
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Tambi Dude
April 9, 2017
@Balajisakkrapani: Film music in general is heavily skewed towards contemporary music. I love S D Burman songs, but I am not going to listen to it on my phone. I won’t mind listening to his songs at a restaurant, or at someone’s home or via links to youtube. I really enjoy listening to his songs whenever I get a chance. But beyond that it is difficult to make it a habit on a daily basis. With that said, the key difference between good old songs of IR and that of ARR is that, at least I won’t mind listening to IR songs. With old songs of ARR, the urge is simply not there. If the place wherever I am eating happen to play songs of Puthiya Mugam it will have no impact of me.
I find this oddity only with the film songs. My guess is that film songs are strongly bonded with the movie. For example, I don’t get that “old” feeling listening to classical rock of 60s and 70s. Or for that matter jazz.
Talking about jazz listen to this and try to remember Mumbai Express songs by IR.
Undeniable influence. Great piece of music by Hank Levy.
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Madan
April 10, 2017
“What feedback exactly Rahman’s success gave Raja? How was it manifested? No answers.” – The answers are there in the article. I could quote the relevant portions for you but that would be wasting your and my time. Now, if your point is I haven’t elaborated enough on them, fair enough but in a 500-800 word piece, there’s only so much ground I can cover. And if I write a bigger one than that, people are going to call it War and Peace. Heck, anything above 130 chars is War and Peace these days. Moving on..
“this album was a superhit, people lapped up this song so this is not exactly the poster boy for “people got bored of IR style”” – No, this conclusion doesn’t necessarily follow. When there are no options, people will lap up whatever entertainment they have. Besides, IR was a well worn habit. Why would anybody abandon a habit just like that if there were no alternatives? Before Rahman, anybody else who gave hits also imitated IR anyway and the original is always better than the imitation. But the enthusiasm with which Rahman’s music was embraced by the audience indicates that they did yearn for something new. Just because Kumar Sanu was giving hits into the late 90s doesn’t mean people would have said no to something else and they didn’t.
And while we are on that, I think this album is a prime candidate for lazy template songs IR. Vanna Poongavanam is very much in the Rojapoo Adivandhadhu template though it’s not as blatant as Hello hello Come on Come on which is borderline self plagiarism. Vaa Vaa Anbe is like any number of keeravani based songs with that exact same beat which he had already done. Hint: He had a much bigger and better remembered hit with that same formula in a film starring Prabhu and Khusbhu. If anything, Adho Mega Oorvolam falls less into that trap than the other songs. But the overall setting – dream sequence, royal attire, group dancers, veenai, 3/4 tabla beat – everything was well established by then. Adho Mega is not a bad song but it also doesn’t offer surprise. And there were more of these tracks in the early 90s because he was doing more films than ever before at that point. Something like 50 a year.
” I thank the author on behalf of Rahman fan community” – Welcome but seeing as you are obviously not a Rahman fan, you should perhaps allow them the courtesy of speaking for themselves.
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KayKay
April 10, 2017
Suresh, your post is a “standard rant” by an IR fan taking umbrage at the merest suggestion that their idol isn’t infallible. And then goes on to offer a rebuttal with cherry-picked data (should I be thankful Raja’s entire discography wasn’t copied and pasted from Wikipedia?)
Genius isn’t an output consisting of 100% unbridled masterpieces. It’s about occasionally failing, but also about, when you get it right, you produce a landmark work that your contemporaries can’t hope to equal. Steve Jobs’ NeXT company sank and his Cube computer laughed out of production, but he put a million songs in your pocket and you genuflected in return. But that doesn’t mean you re-evaluate the Cube as a misunderstood masterpiece.
If I say Raja’s Rajini soundtracks in the early ’90s (moving a year or 2 forwards from your beloved 1991) like Uzhaipaali and Veera are perfectly pleasant but can’t match the freshness of a “Nallavanukku Nallavan” or “Thanga Magan” or “Dharma Dhurai”, what is the issue? If I say what he gave for Bhagyaraj for “Oru Ooorla Oru Rajakumari” doesn’t come close to “Mundhanai Mudichu or “Thooral Ninnu Pochu” in terms of the sheer innovation in orchestration and melody, what’s the problem? If I posit that a “Kalaignan” or “Sathi Leelavathi” score doesn’t move me like a “Sakala Kala Vallavan” or “Thoongathe Thambhi Thoongathe” or “MMKK” or “Apoorva Sahotharargal” does that mean IR started giving crap scores to Kamal from some point onwards?
Issue is one of FRESHNESS in sound, not a dig at Raja’s awe-inspiring ability to conjure up an ear-worm of a tune.
Read the article again.
And Madan, great piece of writing. Looking forward to more!
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KayKay
April 10, 2017
“What feedback exactly Rahman’s success gave Raja? How was it manifested? No answers. General lazy theories without substantiation”
Sigh! Can we not be so literal? Read Madan’s article again.
“it is at least partly because Rahman’s success liberated him to search afresh for new ways to express”
A “metaphorical feedback” to Raja, if you need things to be explicit. It is merely an author’s opinion, feel free to disagree with it, but asking for “substantiation” for an op-ed is pointless, unless the claims made are so horrendously outlandish, which isn’t the case here.
“So whatever point the author tried to make he hasnt communicated it effectively”- speak for yourself. Was perfectly clear to me, but I understand if that isn’t the case with everyone.
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harish ram
April 10, 2017
@Madan I agree to your points about IR in your reply. Why I still say ARR is a big deal till now is because if you are making a big film in tamil his name is still expected to come up as contender for music because of the saleability he immediately brings. The new Vijay film could have easily had SaNa or Anirudh since GV isn’t available anymore. in the late 90s IR didn’t have that pull when the newbee ARR was driving the market.
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dagalti (@dagalti)
April 10, 2017
BR, this is an atypically superficial musing.
You have taken your listening experience of a song and attempted to project it on to public tastes and have tried to understand a ‘transition’.
One only needs to see the volume and maddening variety and depth of his songs simply in that very year to see that one would be hard-pressed to make a point that he was somehow falling short on novelty.
// As long as he was the top dog, Ilayaraja was constrained to repeat himself//
🙂
Just consider the volume and variety of his output in the years he was ‘top dog’. Heck, that is precisely why we all hold him in awe in the first place don’t we?
//If in 2012, Ilayaraja could come up with a Sayndhu Sayndhu, it is at least partly because Rahman’s success liberated him to search afresh for new ways to express//
It is very telling that the next album you chose to mention was NEPV. i.e. the one album that was promoted and duly (finally!) caught public attention. Your choice may have more to do with the fact it would be more readily understandable to many here, and not so much to suggest you yourself didn’t find songs in the intervening period less interesting.
A simple exercise is to look up every year since ’92 (or before for that matter) and see for oneself how the man was simply one his own trip all the time. All the time! Can one – with any sense of certainty – assert that there is something missing in ‘pAkku veththalai’ (1990!) that he has seems to have ‘figured out’ better in his contemporary works?
We – for whatever definition of we – tune out and tune in as we see fit. That is perfectly okay (பார்றா!). But it is quite unnecessary – even presumptuous – to project that on to the artist himself.
என்னோடு வா வா என்று சொல்ல மாட்டேன்
உன்னை விட்டு வேறு எங்கும் போக மாட்டேன்
Our continued hopeless misunderstanding of Raja, I think, owes to the fact that there simply are no yardsticks out there to compare the phenomenon to. That volume and variety, prove to be evasive to most theoretical characterizations.
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anandkumarrs
April 10, 2017
Good post Madan! While on this please read my post – 25 Years since the Roja blossomed!!” –
where I talk about a fan’s transition from Raja to Rahman. Feedback is most welcome!
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rothrocks
April 10, 2017
@ dagalti I am the author of this piece, not BR. So leave him alone. 😉
I really do not care to address your own opinions masquerading as assertions. But I do want to address why I chose Sayndhu Sayndhu as an example. Because when I am submitting an article that would be read by a general audience (and not only IR fans) I have to use an example that would hopefully resonate with them and a less popular song will not serve the purpose. Sayndhu Sayndhu is both recent enough that listeners would recall it and also different enough in treatment from his early 90s work to get the point across. I could have just as well chosen Niram Pirithu Parthen but I would not be so confident that the audience would relate to the example. One more thing: IR may be extraordinary but audience behaviour is ordinary. This article focuses only on the audience reaction to his work so no special parameters are required in my opinion. Yes I am using my own experiences as a starting point but based on conversations with other IR fans who are, like me, somewhere on the median between the mafia and the gumbal, I was fairly certain that the post would resonate with them. It seems to have. It evidently did not work for you and I am sorry about that.
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rothrocks
April 10, 2017
@ Harish ram Fair point and agreed.
@ Kay Kay Thanks for the kind words and thanks for getting it and articulating it better than I did.
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Vidhya M
April 10, 2017
I listen to IR numbers today – but no, not back in the mid-90s. And I was nothing less than a huge huge fan of Raja, who, as a 12 yr old, scrimped on her pocket money to buy most of those audio cassettes mentioned by Mr. Suresh. (32 bucks a piece in 1991?)
I couldnt put a finger on the reason why I stopped spending on Raja’s and shifted to ARR. It became selective spending on Raja (Avatharam, Kalapani) and splurge on ARR’s. The author and some commenters have articulated the reason – my reason – very well.
Today after searing my ears for years with HJ, Yuvan, Deva, Ani, Sirpi et al, Raja’s songs again sound “different” and the monotony is broken. Heck – last week I spent the whole Saturday afternoon watching Amudhai Pozhiyum Nilave, Odum Mekangale, Malarnthum Malaratha type of Oliyum Oliyum songs.
But as the writer correctly mentions – now we may have a new found / recurring love for Raja – but there definitely was a period, when even some of us die-hard fans did step back and unabashedly groove to Rahman’s. While Raja continued his journey knowing we would join him back soon.
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dagalti (@dagalti)
April 10, 2017
@rothrocks
//I am the author of this piece//
Ah.. அதானே பார்த்தேன்.
//opinions masquerading as assertions//
ஏதோ ஏழைக்கேத்த எள்ளுருண்டை. Blogpost தேத்தும் அளவு பத்தாது தான்.
//I am sorry about that//
அட என்னங்க இதுக்கெல்லாம் வருத்தப்பட்டுக்கிட்டு. பரவாயில்லை, விடுங்க.
அதாவது, Anyone who does not relate to this piece is someone for whom this piece is not intended in this first place.
ஷோக்கா சொன்னயா, தூள்யா. ஞாபகம் வச்சுகுறேன், நானும் எங்கனா அட்ச்சு உட்றேன்.
Apologies to BR!
ஒரு song dedicate பண்ணிடுப் போயிடறேன்:
அவதாரம்
அரிதாரத்தைப் பூசிக்கொள்ள ஆசை
SJ: பாட்டுன்னு நினைப்பதெல்லாம், இங்கு பாட்டாக இருப்பதில்ல
IR (indignant ‘assertion’): அது என் பாட்டு இல்லை!
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Vikram C
April 10, 2017
Still nothing to show Rahman’s success feedbacked into Raja”s music making process and made him change anything.
But the we have a youngster who wants to show he is “different from taj6a mafia and.more evolved” so all power. When you are young you want to differentiate yourself from the crowd. Fair enough.
As for rahman fanboys like KayKay , we do understand your desperate need to establish Raja learnt something if not from rahman his success – it is needed for you to satisfy yourself that Rahamn is equal to Raja or even comparable. One doesn’t expect anything else from you
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Madan
April 10, 2017
“ஏதோ ஏழைக்கேத்த எள்ளுருண்டை.” – Andha yellurandaiyai yeduthu un vayiliyae adachuko. Naan edhukhu oru apavi yezhaiodaiya yellurandaiyai pidunganam. Yen pa, yennachu, Madras veyil thangalaiya?
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Madan
April 10, 2017
“Still nothing to show Rahman’s success feedbacked into Raja”s music making process and made him change anything.” – It was a metaphor, as has already been clarified to you once before. But since you insist on taking it literally, there is, actually, a Hariharan sad solo which is clearly inspired by a Rahman hit song. Not going to spell out the name for you. I am sure one as well versed in IR’s music as you seem to be can easily work out which song.
“But the we have a youngster” – How old are you, kid? Anyway, thanks for making my day. Been a long time since somebody told me I was young. Oh, to be young again!
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Madan
April 11, 2017
” It became selective spending on Raja (Avatharam, Kalapani) and splurge on ARR’s. The author and some commenters have articulated the reason – my reason – very well.” – Part of the problem was also the drop in the number of movies he was doing and the increasingly lower profile of those films. Other than a brief phase in the late 90s – from Kadhalakku Mariyadhai to Friends – he wasn’t scoring for the happening stars of the time. From Sethu onwards, word spread of his ‘revival’ again and more people began to follow his music again. But just as a sample of how much things have changed, when my mum posted an FB update expressing how much she loved the NEPV songs (not long after the audio launch), most of the comments talked about IR as such with references to 80s soundtracks. It was a bit disheartening to realise that even GVM’s massive PR blitz could only go so far in getting people to bite into an IR soundtrack.
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Madan
April 11, 2017
“If I say Raja’s Rajini soundtracks in the early ’90s (moving a year or 2 forwards from your beloved 1991) like Uzhaipaali and Veera are perfectly pleasant but can’t match the freshness of a “Nallavanukku Nallavan” or “Thanga Magan”” – On a tangent, I just want to say that w.r.t Rajni, I do agree with the mafia’s theory that Suresh Krishna was playing politics there. I mean, Deva basically produced two very Raja-like (but inferior) soundtracks – Annamalai and Baasha – which the maestro himself could have easily done. I can understand if Krishna had handed over those films to Rahman but choosing Deva was more about the politics. So there WAS that, undoubtedly. But not ONLY that. Fortress IR was more vulnerable by the early 90s than it would have been in say the mid 80s. Too many mokkai films in too little time which eventually ate into his inspiration, relatively speaking. The preponderance of standard beats also goes up as we enter the late 80s; he used to be less repetitive with beats before.
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naveenkrwpress
April 11, 2017
comparing anybody to IR would be unfair to the other person. IR is a multi-dimensional genius ( pathu thalai raavanan ). he is not just a music composer. he is a solid singer, lyricist, producer, distributer, philosopher, independent artist with non-film albums, literary scholar etc. he is a running journal of south indian film industry for so many decades. he is a timemachine that can relate to the times of pre-KVM, MSV and to the Anirudh generation. he is like Vali or Bhishma. nobody can be compared with him. if at all one has to, i would compare him to Kannadasan or thiruvalluvar. collectively put together the sum of all our exposure could only be 50 to 60% of IR’s book of work. i still stumble upon unknown gems ( multiple songs of Kaatrinile Varum geetham, Kovil Pura,Aan Paavam etc for e.g. ) of IR. like we all have our own favorite thirukurals which have touched us, we keep finding new meanings everytime v re-listen to hs songs just like thirukkural makes more sense as you thinking about it again.
all said and done, time changes everything. did we imagine a TN without J and see what is happening.
read somewhere IR had 21 projects for 2017. he does not have to prove anything to anybody anymore. his body of work is sufficient to music lovers for multiple generations.
ARR came up with good sounds and was pathbreaking with Roja. i doubt he will stand the test of time. unfair to compare him with IR. one Avadharaam or Naan kadavul once in a while is more than enough.
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rothrocks
April 11, 2017
@ Naveen Well said. About longevity, if Celine Dion can have longevity, I don’t see any reason why Rahman’s music won’t stand the test of time. But that is in the future and time will tell how it turns out. Yes IR has nothing to prove.
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shaviswa
April 11, 2017
I grew up listening to both Raja and Rahman. I love their songs and I used to feel that they are part of my younger days. But everything becomes stale beyond a point. I cannot listen to either of them today. Their recent albums have all been absolute duds.
I listened to Raja’s 70s/80s/90s so much that they fail to excite me these days. Rahman’s songs up to 2003 time frame are extremely good. But after that it has been a long downhill climb for him but for a few, rare glimpses of brilliance.
I remember going wow when I listened to Roja. I was so fascinated by the new sound that I used to look out for every new ARR release and buy them on the day of release. So the author has a point. IR was becoming tedious and repetitive and the audience were yearning for a new sound. We found ARR.
ARR is now stale. The current music lot are no patch on IR and ARR. The audience is yearning for a new sound….the next IR or ARR. Will we ever get one?
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naveenkrwpress
April 11, 2017
ARR should say No to the next SuperStar/Shankar movie and give himself to some new director. he is most creative in Hindi…his work for Jodha Akbar, Taal, Guru, Tamasha, Highway, Rangeela were fresh and trend setting.
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Srinivas R
April 11, 2017
@naveen, totally agree that ARR produces his most creative for Hindi. Delhi 6 and RDB are his best albums IMO
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Madan
April 11, 2017
Yeah, ARR has fared better in Hindi in the noughties and onwards vis a vis Tamil. Wouldn’t necessarily say most creative ever, that was probably Thiruda Thiruda.
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KV
April 11, 2017
Of all the articles, why would Baradwaj select this one to be published here, other than try to ”sell” this to Rahman fans.
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naveenkrwpress
April 12, 2017
BR, how do you rate TR as a music composer. i rate his ‘idhu kuzhandai paadum thaalaatu’ as one of the best music in a film song. amazing usage of classical instruments and what lyrics. his first album was full of gems, he gave one song to each of the leading singers ( spb, malaysia, tms, jayachandran, KJY, SJ, PS ) and each was impactful. i beleive he wrote the lyrics for the songs too
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brangan
April 12, 2017
Oh, I quite like TR. He isn’t a “great,” IMO. But he made a lot of good music in the 80s, like these songs:
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naveenkrwpress
April 12, 2017
one big or rather the biggest factor that is deciding the MD nowadays is the music company that holds the selling rights. they invariably favor ARR when it comes to big budget movies due to his visibility in the international media thanks to Oscars. the director or producer or the stars alone cannot choose their fav composer for their films if Sony says No
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rothrocks
April 12, 2017
@naveen: Suffice it to say that a lot of things could have been different had NEPV succeeded at the BO. GVM had persuaded Sony to sign on IR and the album was received well and sold lots of CDs too. But the film bombed and the producer took a very vindictive attitude towards GVM. Rajavukku nariya varushamave luck illai.
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harish ram
April 12, 2017
Isn’t the music space in tamil broken up into multi-composers now similar to how the hero space moved from 2 stars to several now? IMO SaNa-Anirudh rule now followed by Sean, Imman, Vishal, Justin, Hiphop, Leon occasionally giving awesome music. In terms of the taste, yes we are moving back to the IR sound now. Sample the albums of most of the people above except the last two. In their own capacities, styles and varying frequency, they are all re-creating the IR sound. ARR is like a super star / Kamal now. Still the biggest in the market, yet …
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Tambi Dude
April 12, 2017
“Suffice it to say that a lot of things could have been different had NEPV succeeded at the BO. GVM had persuaded Sony to sign on IR and the album was received well and sold lots of CDs too.”
I didn’t know this affected IR’s sale-ability. Until now I had an impression that, as good as NEPV songs were, it appealed to only old foggies like me and the generation Z couldn’t care less.
NEPV, Hey Raam and Mumbai Express are my favorite albums in any languages after 2000+.
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Madan Mohan
April 12, 2017
“as good as NEPV songs were, it appealed to only old foggies like me and the generation Z couldn’t care less.” – It is not a mass hit like an Alluma Dolluma but nevertheless, some tracks, esp Mudhal Murai and Sattru Munbu, may have attained some kind of hipster appeal. Along the lines of how Adiye (Kadal) too became a hit. When you think about it, Adiye is also not like the typical hit songs in Tamil music today and relies heavily on guitar. NEPV also got nominated for the Filmfare awards losing out, ironically, to Kumki. Ramya NSK also won best female singer award at Vijay Awards for Sattru Munbu.
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e.hari
April 13, 2017
Though I agree with the gist of this article, IMO ARR arrival was not the only reason for the IR downfall. Unlike the change of guard from MSV to IR or SJ to LP, ARR was very selective from day 1 and did not signup lot of movies at the same time. Even In 1995 ( 3 years after Roja) IR still ruled the charts and had lion share of movies released with refreshing music( avatharam, veera, chandralekha etc). But all changed from 1995 and the main reason was the success of other composers – Deva ( Aasai, Batcha), Vidyasagar ( Karna, Pasumpon), Sirpi ( Ullathai Alli tha, Gokulam), Baradwaj, SV Rajakumar which pretty much made IR redundant. IR did not help himself by having a very bad year in 1996. The fall was so swift that even a die-hard IR loyalist like Kamal was forced to go to Deva ( Avvai Shanmugi) due to market pressure.
Personally one IR album during this time tested my patience more was Udan Pirappu ( 93) – better example for the stagnated sound.
At least Eeramane Rojave had few other good songs.
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shaviswa
April 13, 2017
“I didn’t know this affected IR’s sale-ability. Until now I had an impression that, as good as NEPV songs were, it appealed to only old foggies like me and the generation Z couldn’t care less.”
Absolutely. They sound dated.
BTW even among the new composers like Ghibran, there is a lot of old style songs. “Sara sara saara kaathu” is a pretty nice but old style song. I don’t think the new generation can relate to that song.
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naveenkrwpress
April 13, 2017
commenting on IR templates, i would be happy if the products of the template are like ‘Oho megham vandhado’, ‘vaan megham poo poovai thoovum’, ‘pon vaanam panneer thoovudhu inneram’, ‘ chinna chinna muthu neerile megham vanna vanna kolam podudhe’. would you call these IR template heroine rain songs?
only the generation of 2040/2050 will be able to objectively compare IR and ARR by when both their active era would be over.
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brangan
April 13, 2017
e.hari: Udan Pirappu… stagnated? Really? I love “Nandri sollave unakku” from that film…
Anyone: BTW, the comments thread on this post seem to span across the page. Any idea how to fix it?
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Tambi Dude
April 13, 2017
@e.hari Avvai Shanmughi was not a Kamal produced movie for him to decide about the MD. Just like Indian, Nammavar before which did not have IR as the MD. I am not counting Kuruthipunal as even though it was a Kamal produced movie, it was song less and hence Kamal might not have seen the need for IR. (yeah I know IR did Kadamai Kannayam Kattipadu which had no songs too).
I think Kamal did not drop IR until after Mumbai Express. They still have a good working relationship. I also feel that IR and Rajni completely broke up after Veera. Has anyone seen them together in a public place. Apparently Rajni wanted IR for Padayappa and IR refused because he did not want to create an impression that Rajni helped him back resurrect his career. IR is too egoist for all this.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
April 13, 2017
Tambi Dude: Kamal usually has a say even if he’s not the producer. And, Mahesh Mahadevan was Kamal’s find – he’d also scored for Aalavandhan. By the time when Avvai Shanmughi happened, Deva was clearly at his peak of his career. In fact, it was very brave of Rajini to have him on board for Annamalai.
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Madan
April 13, 2017
@ e hari: I agree that it was in fact the likes of Deva, Sirpi, S A Rajkumar who took away more of the market from IR (since, as you say, ARR didn’t score so many films). Part of it was due to politics played by some people like Suresh Krishna as I mentioned above. But partly it was also what Tambidude mentioned w.r.t the IR-SJ parallels – IR’s fast songs began to get kinda noisy (think Poongatru Idhu Podhum/ Kallathanamaga/ Muthirai Ippodu) and the orchestration developed a filmi quality. Earlier, in fast songs, he combined rock/fusion elements with Indian melody brilliantly (say Poo Pota Dhavani) so even his out and out commercial fare was pushing the envelope. In the early 90s, he allowed the likes of Deva to close the gap on him by diluting the quality of his fast songs. He kept producing brilliant music for rural based films and for projects with Balu Mahendra (Marupadium for eg) but fast songs move the market. As such, I don’t think he has done a truly great fast song in a long, long time…or even if he has, it was marred by poor vocal selection (another bugbear of his recent projects).
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Madan
April 13, 2017
“i would be happy if the products of the template are like ‘Oho megham vandhado’, ‘vaan megham poo poovai thoovum’, ‘pon vaanam panneer thoovudhu inneram’, ‘ chinna chinna muthu neerile megham vanna vanna kolam podudhe’. would you call these IR template heroine rain songs?” – Off these, pon vaanam is a melancholic solo and already in a very different category. If I take Oho Megam-Vaan Megam and add Athadi Yammadi, the last one is less inventive. If I now add Vanna Poongavanam, I find it even more ‘tired’. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that chronologically, it came last. How many times can one tweak the same template for interesting results? Even a magician can’t keep pulling rabbits out of the hat all day.
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Madan
April 13, 2017
@ Tambidude: I think Suresh Krishna came out with some memoir a few years back where he wrote something uncomplimentary about IR’s involvement in Veera and IR had something to say about it in turn in his Ilayarajavai Kelungal series. So for sure something went wrong in that film. That something may have been the fact that some of IR’s own composed BGM tracks were replaced by ad jingles by Krishna.
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tekvijay
April 14, 2017
Suresh and Dagalti’s replies suffice for most cases. Few points/thoughts to add..
Raja was on his own trip all the time but as someone pointed, audience didnt put their ears and effort into ALL of the albums raja gave those times. It was mostly to the creamy layer like kamal/rajini films, barathiraja kb maniratnam films etc. Also the tape technology didn’t allow looping like we do in ease and also there was no good cheap listening systems like what we have now. Tape was best but LP much best, top of all. But LP was and even is a luxury. So, now, when we get to listen the LP Rips of Raja songs which we listened 100s of times, in good hardware, we are finding new layers/stuff/meanings in same songs which we missed when listening to them for 100s of times. We also missed the access to listen BGM’s apart from theaters. Also add the other language films he did, for ex say, during and before 92, we kind of totally missed.
Let me give 2 examples. Rahman’s entry introduced more new sounds and some new instruments agreed. For example take wind flute, He used it straight from Roja (puthu vellai mazhai) to umpteen movies. But how many of us remember the SAME wind flute, raja also used in the very beginning of the song ஆலோலம் பாடி அலைகின்ற காற்றே from Baradhan’s ஆவாரம்பூ?!? Also the synth instrument we hear in காதலிக்கும் பெண்ணின் from காதலன், the SAME instrument Raja used in the very beginning of ஆட்டமா தேரோட்டமா from கேப்டன் பிரபாகரன்?? Well these are just 2 examples of Raja using something ahead of Rahman. If we dig deep, we may find lot of small things like these.
(To add one more, since Rahman, the letter ஸ்/ச was made to sound with more chill effect. for each ஸ் the extra chillness was added. EVen deva copied this small teknik and heavily used. Recall Hariharan singing the word சுவாசம் in umpteen deva films were you will hear that extra chillness sound in both ”சு” & “ச”. I am sure i have heard this very same effect in few raja songs post 92 which i cud not remember now. but they were less, natural occurrence unlike rahman’s)
Rahman, right from his entry, heavily brought in lot of hindustani in tamil but Raja neither didn’t use it heavily(similar to the volume of what rahman used) before 92 or after 92. Simply becos he didnt get lot of situations and he preferred other genres for most of the time. Raja clearly stayed away from even slightest resemblance so that one cud call him aping to the new “trend”. No he didnt. He honestly tried lot of new stuff as he was doing b4, but totally in his own way. Rahman also made sure he never went near raja’s patterns except few instances like பூங்காற்றிலே உன் சுவாசத்தை from உயிரே. But they were rare. Rahman’s use of carnatic too was/is not as deep as raja and thus they are clearly distances apart in this also
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Ravi K
April 14, 2017
Naveenkrwpress wrote: “ARR should say No to the next SuperStar/Shankar movie and give himself to some new director. he is most creative in Hindi…his work for Jodha Akbar, Taal, Guru, Tamasha, Highway, Rangeela were fresh and trend setting.”
That also speaks to the kind of films and filmmakers in the Hindi film industry vs. Tamil film industry, or at least, the kinds of filmmakers ARR is working with in those industries. I quite liked his work on “Maryan,” which was an unusual film for the Tamil industry. I would love to see what ARR can do with someone like Vetrimaaran or Karthik Subburaj (though I do love the Karthik Subburaj/Santosh Narayanan combo).
Predictions on some of ARR’s upcoming projects:
“2.0” – Was mostly disappointed in the songs for “Enthiran” and “I.” I think the Shankar formula is growing stale overall.
“99 Songs” – ARR wrote the story, so perhaps this personal project will be particularly inspiring for him. Hopefully it’s not a boring prestige project.
“Sachin: A Billion Dreams” – the expected prestige biopic score. Nothing unusual here. These sports movies he’s been doing in the past few years remind me of the time when did several historical films post-Lagaan.
“Beyond the Clouds” – Majid Majidi’s first Indian film. I don’t know if this will have any songs or if it will most be background score. Again, could be good inspiration.
Vijay 61 – Kinda disappointed that he’s doing a Vijay/Atlee film. The Vijay/ARR combo has been disappointing before (Udhaya, Azhagiya Thamizh Magan), and Vijay’s films are not particularly known for good music anyways.
Sarvam Thaala Mayam – Rajiv Menon/ARR combo has produced some terrific songs. Looking forward to this one.
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e.hari
April 14, 2017
Rangan – Nandri solvea unakku had a serviceable tune, but with a stagnated sound (orchestration) and other songs in the movie were not good. What amplified my frustration was the constant promotion ( P.vasu) in the airways.
TambiDude: Yes, ME was the last collaboration between Kamal and IR, but Kamal was wisely moving away from IR from in the 90’s already.
Madan: Choosing Deva from Annamalai was KB’s idea and he just broke up with IR after pudu pudu arthangal, but did not go with Maraghatamani surprisingly. For Batcha ( Naan autokaran song was a riot), it did not help that IR and SK had a fallout after Veera. Veera is truly the last wholesome commercially successful album from IR. 1996 was a brutal year for IR ( only half of the movies compared to previous years including other language movies), only few ( Fazil, priyadrashan, kasturi raja) stayed with him. His sons had started as composers and helping him as well. But for some reason post 1995 Raja was not the same composer, most of his attempts to keep his signature and to stay relevant to the new sound ended up with half baked and confused songs. Few of the post 96 were popular only because of the popularity of the movies ( KM, Friends etc.). He never got back even to his mid 90’s standards ( except Mumbai express) and few individual songs in ( Pidamagan, HeyRam, Virumandi, Time, Manadhil Urudhi Vendum, Kannukul nilavu etc.). But my favorite IR song in his own voice came during this period ( Kattu Valzi Kaal Nadayai Pora thambi)
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Madan
April 14, 2017
“He never got back even to his mid 90’s standards ( except Mumbai express) and few individual songs in ( Pidamagan, HeyRam, Virumandi, Time, Manadhil Urudhi Vendum, Kannukul nilavu etc.).” – I think upon digging a little, you will find many more songs across films he’s done from late 90s to the present day which have at least one or two great songs. But one thing I’ve found is with these compositions, you have to be a little patient as they don’t grab you instantly like vintage IR. I can understand why the audience in general may not warm up to it. My point is more that nothing is lost for a listener in persevering through a few listens to allow the composition to make sense to you, especially if the alternative is, sorry, HJ regurgitating the same stuff or Imman doing Raja lite. If I had gone with my first impressions of NEPV, I’d have written it off as meh. Today, I would say it’s easily one of the best albums he’s done in Tamil imo (if not the best) since Paatu Padava (which is also an underrated album). I observed this phenomenon of IR songs becoming hits but the movies tanking with Paatu Padava too. I had seen/heard Iniya Gaanam and Nil Nil Nil many times on Sun TV in the mid 90s. But the film sank and suddenly nobody was talking about the songs either. So the fact that people could now listen to the songs on satellite TV (on youtube/mp3 in the noughties) also hurt IR’s chances where in the past people would have come to watch the film just to listen to the songs. Now he became dependent on being part of A List projects (which of course proved elusive).
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Madan
April 14, 2017
“audience didnt put their ears and effort into ALL of the albums raja gave those times” – Which is unrealistic, right? I mean, maybe if they had, they would have come to different conclusions but I doubt they do that with ALL Rahman albums, let alone IR who made/makes tons more of music. This is not a discussion about the absolute quality of IR’s music (in so far as quality in music can be judged at all) but about audience perceptions. And perceptions are subjective. You may disagree, but I strongly feel IR should not have signed up so many mokkai films where his talent was wasted and saved his inspiration for the bigger films. What neither of us can change is the fact that he did sign up for them and Eeramana Rojave was one such mokkai film with the most amazing Tamil villain you will ever see. Gad!
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tekvijay
April 14, 2017
Madan, Thats not unrealistic. Iam a big pathos fan but me myself ispending to listen the great pathos numbers from RajaPaarvai and PallaviAnuPallavi.
Few years b4 there was a Kamal Interview in Jaya Tv where they had a team to sing songs. They sang அழகே அழகு from same ராஜபார்வை to which kamal said ppl missed that song during release time but happy they caught it now! This is just 1%example. What you said unrealistic has now become very much realistic. There are LOT of ppl who listen to Raja’s rare songs/bgms/other language songs now.
But i am pointing out the audience reality in those days that they couldn’t have both access and time and even money to listen them. But audience reality is changed now. So Iam talking about something which got changed now and you are talking about perception which is mostly something you are imagining on your own
I am not against the small films and mokka films raja did those/these days. He did small films in 80s 90s to help them which really happened. He did them in 00s becos he and his prasad studios has to survive., Remember he was in debt in around 2005 which was even asked as a question in a magazine. Now his salary is much better and still he does small films / new films like Megha to support them and we see the great music he’s giving to small films like how it was during 80s
So i wont blame him for those mokka films he did/does, something which rahman also did/does many times even with his strict/limited/ selection process of picking up only creamy layer films.
So Eeramana rojave has no selection problem from raja side. In fact those days that film was a decent hit with new debutantes and without gounder comedy!
Instead Ii would blame those actors and directors who left raja totally, instead of atleast gpoing back to him in some intervals. For example if you take vijayakanth, the last best msuic for his film was Ramana after which i dont remember any hit song. Same i wud say for Karthik – ponnumani, Amaithippadai for sathyaraj( not many listen to Villaadhi villain(vidyasagar) and Vandicholai sinraasu(rahman) ) And say Rajakumaran for Prabhu. He got a duet becos of KB. Same wud apply for the directors who permanently jumped camps
I wud say, atleast if they returned back to raja atleast with some good story/script based films (which most of them didnt do even after skipping raja) then Raja wud hav gave best music possible deserving for that film. Best example is Ramana. This is a proof that Raja has not become dokku for good scripts and instead it was those actors and directors who got dumbed down and thus slowly dumped by audience.
So blame the industry for totally skipping him(only kamal gets clean chit here somewhat) and not going back to him atleast in less frequency instead of blaming Adho Megha oorvalam with inappropriate comment and with non-existant views that rahman’s music helped(!!!!) raja to move few inches forward in his music! (which you claim as monotonous(with adho megha as example) which was not at all, actually, in reality!)
Forgot to say, the example i gave in prev comment, ஆவாரம்பூ & கேப்டன் பிரபாகரன் both were of course pre-92! Just to show glimpse of how Raja was ahead in instrumental usages!
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Madan
April 14, 2017
“Thats not unrealistic.” – Maybe not for you TODAY with the technology available now which you yourself admit didn’t exist at that time. So what are you on about?
” What you said unrealistic has now become very much realistic.” – Doesn’t matter when we’re talking about what, you know, actually happened in the early 90s as opposed to what you wish would have.
“So Iam talking about something which got changed now and you are talking about perception which is mostly something you are imagining on your own” – Imagined by myself and many others who have talked to me about this write up cutting across generations and expressing agreement with my views.
“He did small films in 80s 90s to help them ” – Helping them is all fine and dandy but not at the cost of taking on too many films. There are n number of things that show the problems this overwork brought in its wake, like noisy or flat sounding drum machines marring songs. As a IR fan you may be prepared to give the benefit of doubt and focus on the music itself but there was no need for the audience to do so at the time. Remember tapes also wore out with repetitive listening plus it was much harder to zero in on exactly what portion of a song one wanted to listen to again.
” In fact those days that film was a decent hit with new debutantes and without gounder comedy!” – Hit, no argument with that. Was it a decent film? Heck no, except by the abysmal standards of the time. So each to his own (not something that you apparently believe in).
“For example if you take vijayakanth, the last best msuic for his film was Ramana after which i dont remember any hit song.” – And apparently you also don’t recall Dharma which lived up to the stereotype of noisy film combined with noisy songs.
“I wud say, atleast if they returned back to raja atleast with some good story/script based films (which most of them didnt do even after skipping raja) then Raja wud hav gave best music possible deserving for that film” – This isn’t a hard and fast rule and there were films in the period I talked about – early 90s – where his music was disappointing by his standards. Kalaignan had a good BGM but the songs were alright at best. Yes, there are glimpses of his genius but it is a far cry from say his work for Vikram.
“instead of blaming Adho Megha oorvalam with inappropriate comment and with non-existant views that rahman’s music helped(!!!!) raja to move few inches forward in his music! (which you claim as monotonous(with adho megha as example) which was not at all, actually, in reality!)” – If you had invested the time spent in composing your lengthy reply on understanding what I had written, perhaps you MAY have grasped that that is not what I said at all. Pl also show me where I have used the word monotonous in the article. I haven’t. Whilst you urge the audience to drown themselves in the hidden nuances of every IR track in existence, you have little patience with nuance in debate and discussion yourself. Neither did I use words/phrases like moving the music few inches forward. Do you understand the difference between moving forward and different approach? Do you?
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tekvijay
April 14, 2017
//which you yourself admit didn’t exist at that time. So what are you on about?//
iam not getting you here. it wasnt available then, and is now available. so ppl now finding out that they missed then. and reevaluating raja and finding his complete greatness. Here what is there raja shud have done in 90s to make those tech become accessible to people? He had no time to concentrate on them at all. Also thats not his mistake. He cannot be blamed for LP records not being cheap. But He released them in pristine quality then, so that are now able to listen them, thank god!
//Doesn’t matter when we’re talking about what, you know, actually happened in the early 90s as opposed to what you wish would have//
Again i say, i am not complaining about the lack of tech in 90s. It took 2 full decades for us to be here from there. Computers to internet to mp3 to youtube to smartphone. Just to point out that we cannot blame even 1% on Raja becos he did best quality recording then, which is what we are almost living on, now! Same time iam not blaming people too. even if tech was available, ppl wud hav still went to rahman. its not wrong. Just that masses realize truth when dust settles. both outside and inside their minds.
//“So Iam talking about something which got changed now and you are talking about perception which is mostly something you are imagining on your own” – Imagined by myself and many others who have talked to me about this write up cutting across generations and expressing agreement with my views.//
See its very simple. You take one song and say its not new or fresh, which is according to ur opinion. Even that is fine. Even for me, if i think of most looped songs of Eeramana Rojave, its Vaa vaa anbe poojai undu, for Jaanumma! So ur that opinion is fine for me! But using that as a point to prove IR was stagnating and was becoming dry of new ideas and Rahman’s music made(liberated!!!) him to attempt new sounds and patterns!! thats where i wud like to die out of laughing!
that’s why i pointed out few instrument usages of Raja, which Rahman also used though i agree rahman’s usage became more mainstream and got more noticed. But again here iam trying to say Raja was never lagging and he before itself used the instruments which rahman heavily used.
//“He did small films in 80s 90s to help them ” – Helping them is all fine and dandy but not at the cost of taking on too many films. There are n number of things that show the problems this overwork brought in its wake, like noisy or flat sounding drum machines marring songs. As a IR fan you may be prepared to give the benefit of doubt and focus on the music itself but there was no need for the audience to do so at the time.//
There are n number of things which i have noticed and went awestruck, and things I am still yet to notice from those small films, both in songs and BGM level. There is no need for audience or anyone to do anything. But still, now audience are waking up and catching up with what we raja fans found few years ago! In fact, only after raja fans started planting and spreading more about them, they slowly went mainstream! Raja fans are also a reason for this widespread awareness which is growing and still need to grow much deeper, and will grow! Gasp!!
//Remember tapes also wore out with repetitive listening plus it was much harder to zero in on exactly what portion of a song one wanted to listen to again./
So what? even film reels gets scratched when a films become blockbuster and runs repeatedly in theaters. So, stop making successful films?!?
//” In fact those days that film was a decent hit with new debutantes and without gounder comedy!” – Hit, no argument with that. Was it a decent film? Heck no, except by the abysmal standards of the time. So each to his own (not something that you apparently believe in).//
No doubt its a dud film. But why blame Raja? In same period, he also did classics in both small film and big film category. You take up just one example and leave out great classics he composed for, in the same time. Aavaramboo is also a well attempted film which raja decorated with ultimate songs and BGM! Title music is such a modern classic stuff which will look like composed just few years ago.
//“For example if you take vijayakanth, the last best msuic for his film was Ramana after which i dont remember any hit song.” – And apparently you also don’t recall Dharma which lived up to the stereotype of noisy film combined with noisy songs.//
Dharma came in 98 with a dud story line i think and Ramana came in 2002 with a much better storyline apt for vijayakanth’s then image. So Raja gave great music. Thatswhy i say, if these big actors went to raja atleast for few films with good storyline, we shud hav got much better music than what thier films had from other MDs. Its their loss and mistake. They silently dumped him and failed to show the gratitude for the timeless music raja gave to their films. Only thing is, after going out of raja, they selected dud storylines which only made them fade away slowly. So we cant say that raja lost good films from them.
//“I wud say, atleast if they returned back to raja atleast with some good story/script based films (which most of them didnt do even after skipping raja) then Raja wud hav gave best music possible deserving for that film” – This isn’t a hard and fast rule and there were films in the period I talked about – early 90s – where his music was disappointing by his standards. Kalaignan had a good BGM but the songs were alright at best. Yes, there are glimpses of his genius but it is a far cry from say his work for Vikram.//
Agreed for the 1st 2songs of kalaignan. Had it atleast the half of vikram level, with some comedy angle thrown in, kalaignan wud hav became hit. But you can take எடக்குமடக்கான சரக்கு as a good experimental attempt. If you drop expectations, then it has superb electronic percussion! Again kalaignan was just 1 film. Even there, for such a simple story, except 1st 2 songs, all the other songs and BGM was very good.
//“instead of blaming Adho Megha oorvalam with inappropriate comment and with non-existant views that rahman’s music helped(!!!!) raja to move few inches forward in his music! (which you claim as monotonous(with adho megha as example) which was not at all, actually, in reality!)” – If you had invested the time spent in composing your lengthy reply on understanding what I had written, perhaps you MAY have grasped that that is not what I said at all. Pl also show me where I have used the word monotonous in the article. I haven’t. Whilst you urge the audience to drown themselves in the hidden nuances of every IR track in existence, you have little patience with nuance in debate and discussion yourself. Neither did I use words/phrases like moving the music few inches forward. Do you understand the difference between moving forward and different approach? Do you?//
Man! you say it was predictable which means its not new, ok, u didnt say monotonous, but u were close! As i said, i am even ok with your opinion on that! But keeping only that as an yardstick, you go on to say that Raja no longer surprised the audience with the way he approached an emotion, at least not as often as he did in the beginning!!! thatswhy all these writeups!! If you just look at the list given by Raaga suresh, that just totally seals the entire discussion we all are making here!
The point most of us miss is, when Raja came to the scene in 76, really the MSV set of Mds was bit dull that, parts of TN was listening to Hindi Songs. But when Rahman came, its was not at all that Raja was outdated both commercially and classically. In fact he was shelling out superhit melodies and songs both pre and post 92. Just that, he became somewhat more classic mode than the full fledged pucca commercial mode he was in the starting of 80s. Even then, he still brought that commercially viable music for likes of thalapathy Veera etc. Raja was trying to get into more symphonic and classical mode. That was very evident if you listen to Aavaramboo Title song. But once rahman came in, the anti-raja gang created scene as if Raja totally paled out. that too after முக்கோ முக்கிஃபையிங் with likes of maragadhamani and Devendran and Deva, unable to win Raja and finally brought in Rahman. Added to this gang, the top stars and directors too slightly and slowly started to shift to other camps. But Raja the Boldest, fought the whole battle as a single lone person and made sure he was not going away musically. (Commerce he didnt care much) Just for this itself we need to appreciate Raja forever!
and suggest you listen Aavaramboo Title, this was pre rahman. Just see how advanced Raja was by then!
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Madan
April 14, 2017
“But keeping only that as an yardstick, you go on to say that Raja no longer surprised the audience with the way he approached an emotion, at least not as often as he did in the beginning!!! ” – Yes and I absolutely stand by that. And I don’t think you can convince me otherwise by citing examples of different usage of flute or other instrument because those are musicality related aspects. Which by the way also I had addressed in the article if you had bothered to read: “As inventive as Ilayaraja was musically”.
This is also not the first time in the thread that I have drawn attention to this line, by the by. But nevermind, the point is, I am not saying IR stopped doing interesting things musically. That is NOT the point at all. The point is he had a certain take or a set of takes on love song for instance or pathos for another. By the early 90s, he had revealed most of the ways in which he approached these emotions (within his vintage oeuvre). Now don’t tell me I should have clarified this at the beginning because, I repeat, it was there in the article. And this is also why I offered Sayndhu Sayndhu as an example of what he was able to do once he was no longer the top dog. The way Sayndhu Sayndhu approaches the emotion itself is very different from his love songs of the early 90s and there certainly wasn’t anything like that by then. Sayndhu Sayndhu has some of that anglicized flavour in the singing which Rahman popularised but it is also very lush and very acoustic and orchestral in a way Rahman still isn’t. When Rahman does acoustic guitar love duet, it is laidback and strummy like July Madham. Sayndhu Sayndhu has a much grander arc that evokes IR but in a different light. The phrasing has also changed and the notes are much more spaced out than they used to be even in the most minimalist compositions of his vintage phase. In short, the example was well chosen and not, as dagalti claimed, because that is the only soundtrack of IR I have heard in recent times. I am not saying this metamorphosis was directly inspired by Rahman’s music. Rather, that Rahman’s success resulted in a rejection of the vintage IR template and IR was thus free to also pursue a different approach. If he had attempted it earlier, it would have been harder because filmmakers would have demanded songs that sounded like songs that had already become hits. This was ALSO covered in the article, by the way. IR has himself said Amma Endru was composed only because P Vasu wanted a song that resembled Janani Janani. There are many other such instances. Once he was no longer the king, he had greater freedom to try something different. This doesn’t mean he has tried to abandon the vintage template ALL the time but he is now free to weave in and weave out because he is only composing music for people who genuinely would like to have his music for their film and not for people who approach him because he is no.1.
I can engage you with the other points you have made but I don’t see the point as they are fairly trivial and again you seem to be missing the point even as you acknowledge it. Like, Ettaka may have had some interesting aspects but overall as a song it was alright, kinda meh and that is the point I am making. There were films like this one at the time in the midst of the ones where his magic was still in evidence. And they did colour perceptions of the audience at the time. I am not talking about what the audience can do now with the tech they have. My article only discusses how they responded to these things at the time.
Next time, whether it’s my or anybody else’s article, read it calmly instead of getting agitated that I praised Rahman.
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Tambi Dude
April 14, 2017
Talking about Raja’s music in a super mokkai film, here is a hindi one.
Mahadev: 1989.
Fast forward to 3.35 and listen to the title music. Very different. I don’t recollect IR composing a title music like that.
It has one good song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwr3xqZOUMU
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Madan
April 14, 2017
@ Tambidude: Nice. Sounds like he’s tried to blend his own style with the kind of (very 80s) music that was popular in Bolly at the time. Also shades of Mancini who is one of the less mentioned influences? As in, I have heard IR talk about JW or the German classical masters but not Mancini. But if you listen to this piece, you can see how it may have influenced IR’s more jazz-y BGMs.
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Tambi Dude
April 14, 2017
I personally feel that sound engineering was IR’s weakest area all thru his career. Listening to his 70s and 80s songs in smartphone reveals how careless he was. For comparsion some of RDBurman’s 80s songs had excellent sound engineering, which even on this date sounds very good.
Once ARR introduced us to a much higher standard of sound engineering, IR’s downfall was expected.
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Madan
April 14, 2017
” Listening to his 70s and 80s songs in smartphone reveals how careless he was. ” – I actually discussed this only the other day with a musician friend who makes rock music but is an IR fan (or maybe because…;) ). He said it’s tough for a musician to focus on BOTH sound engineering and composing/playing at the same time. He will get consumed by one at the expense of the other. So it would seem that IR decided to prioritise focusing on composition and arrangements at the expense of sound engineering. Another thing, even in the most densely orchestrated of RD songs, there are far fewer layers playing simultaneously compared to IR. The more the layers, the more difficult it gets to obtain good sound. My friend said basically the facilities for that don’t really exist here. When you compare Prasad Studios with Angel Studios/Abbey Road, the difference is like night and day. I wouldn’t personally question IR for prioritising composing over sound recording (not saying you did). I would take all his incredible inventiveness spread over such an impossibly huge catalogue of work over ARR’s brilliant sound recording. I do understand that podhu makkal will not feel that way, but that’s ok. I am glad somebody like IR got, not just a chance, but basically ruled Tamil music for about one and a half decades. When you listen to songs like Endrendrum Anandhame, it’s hard to believe that he did because they are so demanding, so incredibly left field and yet even THEY became hits. IR is like Morricone and Zappa rolled into one. There will never be another like him. Maybe one as prolific but to be so prolific and yet so inventive over and over…only Raja fossible.
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Tambi Dude
April 14, 2017
Madan: Make no mistakes, my comment was only about his (RDB) sound engineering. In terms of complexity in orchestra, IR was peerless and as recently as NEPV , he is still peerless. The second interlude music of Saindu Saindu and Sattru Munbu tells what he is capable and what other
MDs can only dream of. His mind must have the capability of Western Classical musicians in order to coordinate so many instruments so perfectly.
BTW listen to his original Hindi song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0WG7WhhEzk
Shades of Nizhalgal songs, quite complex.
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vijay
April 14, 2017
Madan, liked the piece and the attempt to intuitively explain away the transition. You are right, It wasn’t just the new sound or digital recording.
My own opinion is that IR was in solid if not top form in the early 90s and after 1995-96 he dropped off, at least in TFM (like how e.hari pointed out). But while his stamp was there in those 90s hits Rahman’s stuff was still something else together.
That is why I argue that those ARR fans who say ARR’s rise was due to IR’s fading away, are actually giving ARR a back handed compliment. Its a borderline insult.And it is not true. IR was in top form.
The fact that ARR’s music turned heads DESPITE what IR was doing in 1991/92 is what made his approach and freshness noteworthy. It is what they call in corporate circles, a disruptive innovation.
BTW, Udanpirappu wasn’t half as stinky as the other P.Vasu album Saadhu. When IR does bad, he really does it bad 🙂
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vijay
April 14, 2017
“Unlike the change of guard from MSV to IR or SJ to LP, ARR was very selective from day 1 and did not signup lot of movies at the same time.’
which, if you think about it, is remarkable in itself.. To capture a market doing just 4 films a year when the norm till that point of time was doing 40 movies a year to be considered a market leader, is in itself noteworthy. He changed the way how a market leading MD worked.
Rahman worked almost like the rock groups he grew up on and played with, doing a few tracks a year and then touring the world playing those hits from those again and again. He basically dared other MDs to use the space given by him to wrest back control.
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vijay
April 14, 2017
Madan, more than anything, even setting aside the standard approach to emotions that IR took and which you have rightly pointed out, what has often irked me was his indifference to his song structures. He never paid attention there.
The same prelude-pallavi-interlude1-stanza1-pallavi refrain-interlude2-stanza2-pallavi repeated twice structure in hundreds of songs. Even now in albums like NEPV or Megha he has’nt changed the approach.
At least in his early years he sometimes gave songs with 3 stanzas where the middle one’s tune was different and so on, like kuyile kavikkuyile or kaatrinile varum geetham and so on.
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tekvijay
April 14, 2017
Sorry for not reading ur writeup initially and picking up only few points from your whole write-up and replying. But let me clarify, from now on, iam replying only for your comments. i think you completely came down here with all your points covered, from your writeup…
The more you write, you seem to drop more bigger bombs! MOAB LOL! But the more i read them, the more counter points run on my mind which i feel as cold water filled buckets which catches ur bombs and totally diffuses them!
Again repeating, you are holding your whole idea with very narrow points made with fery few example songs/films. Agree you superbly elaborated about Saaynthu Saaynthu nEPV. But you say that by early 90s he has revealed most of the patterns and you call them vintage. You also say that when he was the Top MD, he was pestered by producers/directors to repeat his vintage stuff which succeeded. These are the points i completely differ with you
IF you noticed raja’s body of works you can very easily see that he is making many songs which are totally fresh and not any pf his previous resemblances at all, completely new songs. But again if you see, he will leave some of those new songs totally untouched, i mean, will never re use it. Where as there are also handful of songs which he repeats. His whole work is a mix of both.
En iniya pon Nilave is one of the most oldest song which he has never reused its pattern any time, in almost 40 years. Same time that song can never be fixed just only with just 80s. Its not only one pattern wonder but is also still fresh and can be fixed to any year of any decade and it still sounds up to date.
Raja has let many songs like this untouched, right from 70s. In fact he will create this patterns automatically. there is no one who says to do this and no one can actually say this, becos this is something raja’s mind does automatically and its not at all possible for directors to even conceive this. Now again let me remind the ஆவாரம்பூ title music. already said its pre rahman. Its a rural film and still you see the music is mostly WCM based. while raja is known for his pucca nativity in rural village subject, he also knows he shud move on, at some point. there is no situation or a director to tell to compose like this. becos title music is part of BGM. The directors just send the film reel to prasad. thatsall.
ஆவாரம்பூ is just one example where he shows that he can move on from whatever vintage rural village based pattern of music and still make a great appeal. Another example from the same 92 pre rahman is உன்ன நெனச்சேன் பாட்டு படிச்சேன் karthik film’s Title Music. It starts with mild reference to beethoven’s moonlight sonata. Raja has been bringing WCM patterns in rural movies for long time but post 90s these are examples he directly moves to WCM in rural themed films. And its Apt too, is anothern wonder, though
its not relevant to your observations. This continues till அழகர்சாமியின் குதிரை not only the popular title music but the whole BGM will be in western pattern. Charu nivedhita quoted this as a complaint in his review but thats to show that Raja can move on and still make impact.
In same year 92, if you listen to Innisai Mazhai, you will see that total album is entirely different from Raja’s patterns. To the extent that you will even doubt if its really raja who composed. But keen listener can find his usual patterns from that album.
In same basis let me lest you year wise songs which were almost fresh startings, no previous patterns
94 – சொல்லிவிடு வெள்ளிநிலவே(அமைதிப்படை), சொல்லாத ராகங்கள்(மகாநதி), உன்னைவிட மாட்டேன்(வனஜா கிரிஜா),
95 – நில்லாத வெண்ணிலா(ஆணழகன்), தென்றல் வந்து(அவதாரம்), நில் நில் நில்(பாட்டு பாடவா), கொட்டுங்க கும்மி, ஒரு சுடர் (ராஜாவின் பார்வையிலே)
96 – Nammoora mandaara hoove(kannada, almost full album),
97 – ஒருநாள்(தேவதை)
Continuing with Valli, Azhagi Pithamagan, Julie Ganapathy and much more…
Likewise i can go on and on and on with songs which where totally of new fresh patterns. But wait, wasn’t he doing it even in 80s?!? காதல் உன் லீலையா from Jappaanil is also a song which has a NO after and Before. ஏதோ மோகம் from கோழி கூவுது is also a totally one off. அழகே அழகு from RaajaPaarvai is also same.
So from this what we can conclude is, apart fro wht you call as Vintage Raja(both rural and urban based albums) he has been doing this ‘totally new song’ stuff all along. So he shifting to different classical gears starting from 90s is something he does naturally. he wants to do it. In fact we can see similar change in 80s start too! he kind of totally shifted away from whatever leftover minuscule “MSV Era” type of music. But I wonder why you cite something which Raja does naturally, as doing it becos he became empty and lost at that pattern? To say so, what are the list of Vintage Raja Songs you cite, which didnt work as previous ones? And what are those previous ones?
AS i already said, one thing i Agree, Starting from 90s itself, well before Rahman, he shifted more towards WCM based stuff. It was there in 70s 80s too but he kind of did them more and also much progressive. So I just can’t agree your statement unless you provide lot of examples as i asked before.
Coming to your another point – Pressure from directors to use previous patterns, well he has done 1000 films and most populated ones are at 80s only. how many P Vasu films itself you can find similar instances of P Vasu asking to do songs from previous stuff. We know kamal asked few couple of songs like what we see in Rum Bum Bum, Inji iduppazhaga, Puthu maappilaikku etc. But aren’t they micro minority in number, when compared to the sea of volume of songs he did in 80s?
Also, he himself has repeated patterns totally on his own – also has happened. Oh Priya Priya, a situation where hero and heroine are separated and the background will be kind of pre historic. Same situation and pattern repeated for 2 more songs – Priya Agi(Gopura Vaasalile) and Oh Prema(Ashwamedam Telugu)
All 3 songs will be of serious sounding types bordering to pathos but not, and all 3 has lot of WCm Granduer. Now you cannot call it forced too. In fact Sundari from Thalapathy is also exact same situation but Raja did something totally different. But again the WCM Granduer and bordering Pathos mood stayed.
There is also another song where there was no situational need but he just re used a tune just for chumma! Senthoorappoove(16 age) – Allippoove (baghyadevatha malayalam) But again see how the later is totally fresh new, inspite of having patterns from Senthoorappoove. Same thing happened in Amma Endrazhaikkaatha. though its more resembling original, still its very new and fresh. You shud see that its not easy to just reuse a tune from a classic and the resued tune also turns out as classical hit. JUST NOT Easy! But Raja did!
So I am seeing Raja naturally moved from his patterns and no pressuere or whatsoever. He has being showing signs of change naturally in early 90s itself when there is no rahman So if you still say, its only becos of Rahman and other MDS coming in that Raja became free and did new stuff, i totally disagree.
Finally coming to NEPV, you say thats some sound totally un heard of before. No, there are slight resemblances in Edayabhaagilu(Sooryakaanthi kannada movie) Dig more and even Kalaia Nizama from telugu(slightest resemblance) Just that Raja has to wait for a Gautam to come in for an NEPV to happen. which is totally not Raja’s Mistake. As i said before, if the existing lot who worked with raja, and new wave directors, top banners went to Raja in 2000s, we cud have seen NEPV Megha happening then itself. And by 2012, he wud have given something totally new, which we hopefully get from him in future. But the TFM ditched Raja on that count. Loss is totally not his.
And finally, thanks if you read fully(LOL!) and sorry if u found it, the way of writing tough/horrible to read. I am poor at it, agree!
not his.
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Arjun
April 15, 2017
“Madan, more than anything, even setting aside the standard approach to emotions that IR took and which you have rightly pointed out, what has often irked me was his indifference to his song structures. He never paid attention there.
The same prelude-pallavi-interlude1-stanza1-pallavi refrain-interlude2-stanza2-pallavi repeated twice structure in hundreds of songs. Even now in albums like NEPV or Megha he has’nt changed the approach.
At least in his early years he sometimes gave songs with 3 stanzas where the middle one’s tune was different and so on, like kuyile kavikkuyile or kaatrinile varum geetham and so on.”
@Vijay: No denying that IR was probably most comfortable operating within this format, but he has also composed at least a few hundred songs (dozens of iconic ones included) employing innovative non-standard structures. See this thread for e.g. http://ilayaraja.forumms.net/t159-let-s-talk-song-structuring . Perhaps because as a % of his overall output it is not as huge, people tend to form these impressions in their heads. But remember even 100 is a pretty impressive number by any standards. I bet AR Rahman doesn’t have more than 100 songs with unusual structuring.
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Arjun
April 15, 2017
“And this is how Rahman delivered much-needed feedback to Ilayaraja.”
Someone mentioned “opinions masquerading as facts”? Yes, this is it.
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Madan
April 15, 2017
@ tek vijay: Lots of stuff that is not really relevant to the discussion. A pattern like En Iniya Pon not being repeated does not disprove that there were other patterns being repeated. But moving on and I am going to selectively pick a few points from what all you have written, sorry:
“In same year 92, if you listen to Innisai Mazhai, you will see that total album is entirely different from Raja’s patterns. To the extent that you will even doubt if its really raja who composed. But keen listener can find his usual patterns from that album.” – It is NOT totally different at all. Hello Hello Come On opening line of pallavi is very, very similar to Rojapoo Adivanthathu. So, as you have noted later, his usual patterns are there, not only in that song but in the others as well. How evident they are is a matter of each listener’s perception. But what I can say is I used to have both Singaravelan and Innisai Mazhai on tape and Singaravelan got much more attention because THERE he did introduce some new stuff on Innum Ennai Enna Seyya. If you want something REALLY different from the early 90s, it would have to be O Butterfly. We had to wait until the Haricharan-Chinmay duet from Abbayitho…Telugu film for him to explore that pattern again.
“We know kamal asked few couple of songs like what we see in Rum Bum Bum, Inji iduppazhaga, Puthu maappilaikku etc. But aren’t they micro minority in number, when compared to the sea of volume of songs he did in 80s?” – No, these are just the documented/publicised instances. Another was R K Selvamani wanting a song like Mehbooba Mehbooba and getting Aatama instead. So there must be many such out there. I believe that except for a few directors like Mani, KB or Balu Mahendra, most did not know how to tell IR what they wanted except to say that they wanted a song like ABC/XYZ. Yes, possibly IR repeated patterns of his own too but I believe this would have been more to cope with time pressure. He’s not repeating patterns as much as before now so to that extent, I stand by my assertion that being freed up by other MDs taking away business has helped because he has fewer “ennaku indha song mariye innonu venum” people to deal with. You may not like the argument but I can’t help it. I have my own views from observing what has happened through the 90s to date. I have neither argued that his innovation was at an absolute standstill in the 90s nor that nothing has changed from then to now. I don’t find either position tenable but whatever floats your boat.
” you say thats some sound totally un heard of before.” – I said the APPROACH is like nothing he’s ever done before. The overall song and not the individual elements. If you break it down, you are always going to find resemblances here and there to stuff he’s done before. For example, the second interlude somewhat evokes the strings at 1:50 here:
But overall, there hasn’t been a song of his before that combines all these elements – lazy, bluesy strumming, languid, anglicized vocals, lush strings, loose piano arrangement for a love song. Edeya Baagilu is more in the Enrique Iglesias mould. To my mind, IR sounds more comfortable on Sayndhu Sayndhu, one of the possible reasons being he’s gone back to pure rock/jazz percussion patterns. All those dance/club beats he embraced from the early 90s onwards only choked up the harmony. In a way, it makes sense; he’s gone back to his acoustic roots but updated the ‘feel’ to sound more contemporary. And it’s not only achieved by how Yuvan sings it. It’s also the lack of gamakams in the melody relative to the past. If you take Edeya Baagilu, it is still a very Indian melody SUNG in a Westernised manner but Sayndhu Sayndhu melody itself is more Westernised (compare it to Yethi Yethi where the treatment is more Indian). Sattru Munbu is the same. Like Sayndhu Sayndhu, it has one or two phrases that have an Indian tilt but otherwise the melody itself is Western. It is now harmony that establishes the Raja signature rather than melody and that, to quote our favourite character of the year, is a yuuge change. But it must have taken him (IR) a long time to get grips with this new approach and I cannot imagine him pulling it off if he was working round the clock for 50 films a year. We know IR is highly self motivated to change up things but external stimulus doesn’t hurt either.
“if the existing lot who worked with raja, and new wave directors, top banners went to Raja in 2000s, we cud have seen NEPV Megha happening then itself. ” – I don’t fully agree with this. He had a chance with Mumbai Express, for instance, which was the first time he went with jazz for a full album instead of the odd song here and there like Day By Day or Niram Pirithu Parthen. But Poo Poothathu is frankly insipid compared to Sayndhu Sayndhu in spite of a better vocal team to lift the song. At this point, IR still did not have the confidence to experiment in a genre that he has admitted to have learnt more on the job and later in life as opposed to ICM or WCM. Poo Poothathu is like a poor cousin of Niram Pirithu Parthen in that sense – Indian melody embellished by jazzy interludes. Whereas Day by Day is more like IR trying to imitate a jazz standard, doing a Rahman in that sense (because Rahman tends to mimic the authentic genre he is emulating rather than make it his own). In Sayndhu Sayndhu, he is experimenting confidently. Yes, it could have maybe happened a couple of years earlier (but not mid noughties) but somebody would have had to afford the budget to work with those Hungarian musicians and record it abroad. You cannot do justice to such a lush song by recording it in India. But here again, we come back to the role of directors and you have inadvertently helped me by mentioning that it was GVM who approached him with a canvas like this. In IR’s words, “Nobody has asked me to do something like this in a long time”. So, this is the part directors also have to play by challenging him. And they wouldn’t have challenged the no.1. They would have accepted whatever he gave them as long as it was in his vintage style because it was the formula that worked. That formula had to fail commercially for IR to have room again to experiment with a different approach. And that is the metaphorical feedback I referred to in my article. No director would have dared tell IR that it was time for a new approach. Rahman through market forces conveyed it to him. It is disheartening that both NEPV and Megha tanked at the BO. I was really looking forward to see where this Raja genre thing gets to as it’s the most exciting development in his music in years. But there haven’t been other projects with that scope since. There was also Rudramadevi but it’s a time period epic so it’s more like Guru (Malayalam).
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Madan
April 15, 2017
“liked the piece and the attempt to intuitively explain away the transition. ” – Thank you for using the word ‘intuitively’. It was intended to be an intuitive rather a logical/nerdy argument. I wanted to frame it as a fan’s spontaneous reaction and ‘discovery’ rather than a statistical dissertation.
“That is why I argue that those ARR fans who say ARR’s rise was due to IR’s fading away, are actually giving ARR a back handed compliment. Its a borderline insult.” – lol, it’s been on the tip of my tongue to say this and I have been waiting for when any ARR fan will bring up this argument and nobody has. Agree also with your characterisation of ARR’s approach as disruptive innovation. Yes, he didn’t even hog the soundtrack market and still had Deva, Vidyasagar et al appropriating elements of his sound to be hip.
“Even now in albums like NEPV or Megha he has’nt changed the approach.” – Yes, and this has baffled me. Especially given that he has moved almost completely away from Indian melody in songs like Sayndhu or Kalvane, why wouldn’t he also just dump the charanam and go with Western style verse chorus. My theory is IR is a Jekyll-and-Hyde person that way. Part of him innovates furiously but another part is also an ardent traditionalist. It explains his wariness towards the computerisation of music. He doesn’t want to let go so much that everything Indian, and indeed Tamil, about his music is gone. He is very much capable of composing a verse chorus style song as he has shown with the track he did for Love and Love Only. But he won’t do that on his Tamil or other Indian language projects because maybe he feels he owes it to his predecessors to keep the tradition alive. A self styled Last of the Mohicans, so to speak.
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Madan Mohan
April 15, 2017
“Someone mentioned “opinions masquerading as facts”? Yes, this is it.” – Aw, you mean how could I forget to add the obligatory imo there? Sorry, my bad.
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Arjun
April 15, 2017
“Aw, you mean how could I forget to add the obligatory imo there? Sorry, my bad.”
Agreed. Then why did you have to resort to that meaningless retort in the first place instead of engaging with dagalti’s valid arguments (opinions). Nothing in his comment is any more of an “opinion masquerading as fact” than your confident assertion “and this is how this is how Rahman delivered much-needed feedback to Ilayaraja. As long as he was the top dog, Ilayaraja was constrained to repeat himself..” etc. And “Just consider the volume and variety of his output in the years he was ‘top dog’. Heck, that is precisely why we all hold him in awe in the first place don’t we?” is a perfectly valid counter-argument to said baseless assertion (opinion).
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rothrocks
April 15, 2017
@ Arjun: Because I don’t need to be told to consider this and that soundtrack under the presumption that if only I had done so, I wouldn’t have arrived at the conclusions which I would have. The implication being that my opinion is incorrect. There is no such thing; it’s just my perspective which is different from his or somebody else. I am open to a different perspective always but there is no need for the maharishis to descend from the mountain top to ‘educate’ me.
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e.hari
April 17, 2017
Vijay – which, if you think about it, is remarkable in itself.. To capture a market doing just 4 films a year when the norm till that point of time was doing 40 movies a year to be considered a market leader, is in itself noteworthy. He changed the way how a market leading MD worked.
It was remarkable. Singer Srinivas mentioned this in a interview that – ARR said once that he wanted to be like KV Mahadevan not MSV or Raja – that choose only few movies but make impact in every film and every song. But this is common in hindi, where composers like Naushad, SD Burman etc were operating on the similar lines.
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Tambi Dude
April 17, 2017
@e.hari – I think it was in 2015 when he had 4/5 movies released in a short span of 4-5 months, almost all of them wash outs :-
Lekar Hum Diwana Dil
I
Linga
Kaavia Thalivan
and probably one or two more.
He later on admitted that he should have said NO to few projects in order to do justice.
To me his choice of 4 films sounds more like a necessity , than like a strategic decision 🙂
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tekvijay
April 17, 2017
e.hari
// To capture a market doing just 4 films a year when the norm till that point of time was doing 40 movies a year to be considered a market leader, is in itself noteworthy. He changed the way how a market leading MD worked.//
What you say has a basic flaw. Raja didnt do 40 movies per year when he started annakili. In 80s only he touched 50movies per year. Just annakili and Few albums were enuf for Raja to become Top MD!
Just that his talent is enormous and too too far high from the market MDs both before and After Raja, so that Raja was able to dish out 50movies per year with quality only being in an upward direction! Something totally unimaginable for post-Raja MDs
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Madan
April 17, 2017
” But this is common in hindi, where composers like Naushad, SD Burman etc were operating on the similar lines.” – And that’s kind of where the similarity ends because long term it restricted their scope as well as influence on HFM. Naushad found himself confined to historicals or basically films which demanded a semi classical soundtrack while SD worked mostly on Navketan projects. Mostly…he did have non Navketan films going all the way to Chupke Chupke. Of course, come to think, we could say the same about Rahman. Long term his influence has waned while his reputation/goodwill continues to land him projects. So, ultimately it’s difficult to remain influential over a long period simply because the music changes.
“Raja didnt do 40 movies per year when he started annakili” – Right, but I don’t think IR was considered market leader after Annakilli. It took him a few years to get to that point, just as the ARR-Deva-Vidyasagar consortium took until 1994 to finally displace IR. It never happens overnight. RD broke through with Teesri Manzil but it wasn’t until Caravan/Kati Patang that he truly became market leader. I think vijay’s point is ARR was able to wield influence over the industry WITHOUT hogging projects. Leaving aside Naushad’s period – when he was in close competition with CR/Salil anyway – SD never displaced SJ as the market leader. The market leader used to be the one who got most of the films. What happened when IR ceded ground was the best of the other composers, namely ARR, wasn’t making so many films while the ones who did take on lots of films like Deva didn’t do great work. ARR succeeded in making each new soundtrack a kind of mega-event. This eventually ran its course but up to the late 90s this approach did work. Building up anticipation over what he was going to do in his next big album, like rock bands, as vijay mentioned.
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KayKay
April 18, 2017
“Just that his talent is enormous and too too far high from the market MDs both before and After Raja, so that Raja was able to dish out 50movies per year with quality”
Hahahahahahahahahaha! Dream On! It is an IMPOSSIBLE task to dish out 50 movie soundtracks of quality! Even for a mammoth talent like Raja. Just not possible. Assuming the bare minimum of 4 songs per film, that’s 200 songs in a year and EVERY SINGLE one of them a gem? No freaking way! Disagree all you want with the opinions espoused by Madan in his post, tekvijay , but I’d advise you to refrain from these outlandish claims that rob your arguments of any semblance of credibility.
And before we get into what constitutes a “soundtrack of quality”, let me make it clear, that a score producing 1 or 2 good songs with the rest being disposable filler ( something I admit which was technically possible for Raja during his peak period) does NOT make it a “quality” one (by that yardstick, every Vijay Anthony and Anirudh score is technically top notch quality stuff!). Top notch scores are ones like “Payanangal Mudivathillai”, “Amman Koil KIzhakkale”, “Ninaivellam Nithya”, “Naan Paadum Paadal”, “Vaidehi Kaathirunthal” etc where literally every single number is an absolute humdinger. I will concede that at his peak, Raja could dish out 5 or even 10 of those in a year. 50????? NO! Such prolificy simply doesn’t allow it.
Read Madan’s response again (pasted here for your convenience):
“What happened when IR ceded ground was the best of the other composers, namely ARR, wasn’t making so many films while the ones who did take on lots of films like Deva didn’t do great work. ARR succeeded in making each new soundtrack a kind of mega-event. This eventually ran its course but up to the late 90s this approach did work. Building up anticipation over what he was going to do in his next big album, like rock bands, as vijay mentioned.”
It’s a far more articulate, rational and cogent response than I’m capable of!
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KayKay
April 18, 2017
tekvijay, read your looooong posts above and I’ll concede you make a few good points, many of them put forth rationally. But then you say things like:
“The point most of us miss is, when Raja came to the scene in 76, really the MSV set of Mds was bit dull that, parts of TN was listening to Hindi Songs”…..sigh! I’m not going to delve into the wrong-headedness of that sweeping statement. I will merely hope that some hard-core MSV lurkers around here take you to task and enumerate with specific track examples as you did with Raja on how MSV was still continuing to innovate.
“But once rahman came in, the anti-raja gang created scene as if Raja totally paled out. that too after முக்கோ முக்கிஃபையிங் with likes of maragadhamani and Devendran and Deva, unable to win Raja and finally brought in Rahman. Added to this gang, the top stars and directors too slightly and slowly started to shift to other camps”
Let’s apply a little logic here shall we?
Let’s presume, giving you the benefit of the argument that there was this evil cabal of producers who were virulently anti-Raja and sought to displace him by bringing in other composers, or for that matter Rahman. As you said yourself, the likes of Devendran and Maragathamani couldn’t displace Raja. Why do you think that is? Why did you think Rahman could? It’s funny that in your rebuttals, not a single mention is made of the final arbiters in this matter: THE LISTENERS! The consumers who purchase these albums and pronounce their verdict.
Fact: If Roja or Gentleman, or Pudhiya Mugham or Uzhavan had tanked, we wouldn’t be discussing Rahman today. He’d be a footnote.If the Hindi-dubbed Roja had flopped, albums like “Lagaan”, “Rang De Basanti”. “Jodhaa Akhbar” “Delhi 6” and “Raanjhnaa” would’t be in existence.
Fact: In the ’70s, we craved a new sound and Raja’s folk underscored with that amazing bass guitar thrilled us in “Annakkili”
Fact: After 2 decades of Raja, we craved a new sound, and Rahman’s exquisite soundscapes in Roja gave us that
Fact: 2 decades on, and we’re spoilt for choice. A new Rahman album no longer sounds fresh? No worries, lurking just around the corner is a new Imman, Sean Roldan, Santosh Narayanan, Ghibran, Leon James, Justin Prabhakaran, K or Anirudh album that may just do the trick.
By all means continue to mine for hidden gems in Raja’s amazing catalogue and relish in every new found depth. Just refrain from re-writing history to suit your narrative.
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tekvijay
April 18, 2017
//Innisai Mazhai is NOT totally different at all. Hello Hello Come On opening line of pallavi is very, very similar to Rojapoo Adivanthathu. So, as you have noted later, his usual patterns are there, not only in that song but in the others as well. How evident they are is a matter of each listener’s perception. But what I can say is I used to have both Singaravelan and Innisai Mazhai on tape and Singaravelan got much more attention because THERE he did introduce some new stuff on Innum Ennai Enna Seyya. //
LOL! I mentioned lot of examples and you pickup Innisai mazhai only! Ok, agreed there is “rojapoo aadivanthathu’ reference, but still it is very evident that overall that album stands somewhat separate from most lot. for example you can club similar patterns btw ramarajan movie songs, Faazil albums etc especially most rajini abums will use trumpets and sax(? kind of instrument) becos raja conveyed rajini-style well thru those instruments. in that regard you can stitch similarity btw an actor’s or directors entire abum sets for which raja composed. but innisaimazhai wont fit that and stands alone
You pick only ‘Innum ennai’ from Singaravelan but there is Pottu vaitha kaathal thittam which had super soprano high pitch and the song is also somewhat unique. Puthucheri was jujubee but still it was a composition with limit to select instruments, which kamal wears on him! For example, even Raajathi raaja – vaa vaa manjal malare do u think sundarrajan wud hav asked raja to make it as a song full of vocal harmony?! LOL! Even there is no need in the situation also to do a vocal harmony!
And these stuff raja did at a time when he was busy full of projects, just no free time to spare! just think the time and toughness it wud take to record 3 diff vocal track for harmony and also mix it properly!
//If you want something REALLY different from the early 90s, it would have to be O Butterfly. We had to wait until the Haricharan-Chinmay duet from Abbayitho…Telugu film for him to explore that pattern again.//
Blah blah again! Why shud one wait for Raja to repeat Oh Butterfly in 2016 and why is it that only Oh Butterfly is a really different one in 90s?!? what about the other umpteen songs(and the one i listed?)
//No, these are just the documented/publicized instances. Another was R K Selvamani wanting a song like Mehbooba Mehbooba and getting Aatama instead. So there must be
many such out there. //
Logic less assumption!
//I believe that except for a few directors like Mani, KB or Balu Mahendra, most did not know how to tell IR what they wanted except to say that they wanted a song
like ABC/XYZ. //
Again logic less assumption!
//Yes, possibly IR repeated patterns of his own too but I believe this would have been more to cope with time pressure.//
Again logic less assumption for nth time LOL! Raja repeats pattern for continuity! Not due to pressure! It is natural for an artist to repeat patterns and get inspired! It doesn’t mean he is out of ideas and time! Even in this 2016 where raja is not doing 50films per year, he is getting inspired(and that’s nothing wrong too)
Daffader alayalam movie theme – Vivaldi 4 Seasons(Spring to be precise)
Chakkan Chakka(Touring Talkies) & Reena McReena (Abbayi) both same song, were inspired from an English song.
When Raja gets inspired, i only see what he has done on his own, on it. I always find something new from him on the inspired stuff so mostly i don’t have problems with them nor i see raja doing these due to lack of creativity(Jeesh!)
Patterns getting repeated is not a problem and same time, New patterns kept on emerging non-stop since 70s itself is the fact you can try to deny! As an artist, there needs to be continuation of patterns too! They are the connect! In a song, u relate it with the patterns of previous songs, along with totally new stuff introduced in the song! Both are a joy for listener. And both are not easy to create, for a composer, and Raja does both of them effortlessly!
//He’s not repeating patterns as much as before now so to that extent, I stand by my assertion that being freed up by other MDs taking away business has helped because he has fewer “ennaku indha song mariye innonu venum” people to deal with. //
Haha! above reply suffices!
//But overall, there hasn’t been a song of his before that combines all these elements – lazy, bluesy strumming, languid, anglicized vocals, lush strings, loose piano arrangement for a love song. Edeya Baagilu is more in the Enrique Iglesias mould. To my mind, IR sounds more comfortable on Sayndhu Sayndhu, one of the possible reasons being he’s gone back to pure rock/jazz percussion patterns. All those dance/club beats he embraced from the early 90s onwards only choked up the harmony. In a way, it makes sense; he’s gone back to his acoustic roots but updated the ‘feel’ to sound more contemporary. And it’s not only achieved by how Yuvan sings it. It’s also the lack of gamakams in the melody relative to the past. If you take Edeya Baagilu, it is still a very Indian melody SUNG in a Westernised manner but Sayndhu Sayndhu melody itself is more Westernised (compare it to Yethi Yethi where the treatment is more Indian). Sattru Munbu is the same. Like Sayndhu Sayndhu, it has one or two phrases that have an Indian tilt but otherwise the melody itself is Western. It is now harmony that establishes the Raja signature rather than melody and that, to quote our favourite character of the year, is a yuuge change. But it must have taken him (IR) a long time to get grips with this new approach and I cannot imagine him
pulling it off if he was working round the clock for 50 films a year. We know IR is highly self motivated to change up things but external stimulus doesn’t hurt either.//
//All those dance/club beats he embraced from the early 90s onwards only choked up the harmony//
Again a logic less bomb dropping! If you even roughly take up most of the Urban sounding, Club songs, Duets, Modern Tunes, he has done countless variety of genres/patterns/experiments in all of those. Both sticking to a genre and creating something on his own! I just cannot understand how you, even overall, fix that he choked ONLY harmony. Since you are making these statements, you shud prove them.
//It is now harmony that establishes the Raja signature rather than melody//
You mean Raja’s recent songs have more harmony as his signature rather than melody? Again prove please. I am ok with ANY kind of opinion/statement/observation but without logic backing it, it just not sticking my mind.
You say Raja finally made a சாய்ந்து சாய்ந்து which sounded more contemporary. Agree you say that he updated the feel/emotion. But what is the contemporary equivalent song/music it has got in or around 2012 from other MDs which can be compared with this one?! 1st, what do you define/mean as contemporary? If you say sticking with trend, then define it! Going by youtube hit counts, the video song of Putham Puthu Kaalai from Megha, which released a year after from NEPV, has entered as the ONLY Raaja song which crossed 20 Million Hits in youtube! Its 7th song to do so. we dunno what crap music sitting above! And Saaynthu Saaynthu video has got only 1.4M hits!
And you say this as the MOST contemporary and gretest song ever by Raaja! See, i too agree opinion differs! I am fan of both song and even i have slight edge over SaaynthuSaaynthu than PuthamPuthu Kaalai. But masses are of sucha laging taste! They catch up to a new video version of a song which was well existing in youtube for years! And that too video! Srushti Dange LOL!!!!
/also the lack of gamakams in the melody relative to the past/
Oh! So if there is no gamakam then its more modern/contemporary?!? or what? if so even போட்டுவைத்த காதல்திட்டம் too has no gamakam! infact edayabaagilu has less gamakams than சாய்ந்துசாய்ந்து! what indian feel u get in edaya baagilu? it also has westernised singing only by male singer.
//But it must have taken him (IR) a long time to get grips with this new approach and I cannot imagine him pulling it off if he was working round the clock for 50 films a year//
Take a relatively recent hit/good song and just say raja wud not have got time to do such a song before, in his busy past! that’s all! no logic! and forget to carefully skip all the great new modern fresh songs he has been doing since 70s! waare whah!
just becos raja hasn’t done something like that before and thats the reason to prove that he has not got time means, then throughout his career he has never ever got time! becos he has been composing fresh music since 70s!
//“if the existing lot who worked with raja, and new wave directors, top banners went to Raja in 2000s, we cud have seen NEPV Megha happening then itself. ” – I don’t fully agree with this. He had a chance with Mumbai Express, for instance, which was the first time he went with jazz for a full album instead of the odd song here and there like Day By Day or Niram Pirithu Parthen. But Poo Poothathu is frankly insipid compared to Sayndhu Sayndhu in spite of a better vocal team to lift the song. At this point, IR still did not have the confidence to experiment in a genre that he has admitted to have learnt more on the job and later in life as opposed to ICM or WCM. Poo Poothathu is like a poor cousin of Niram Pirithu Parthen in that sense – Indian melody embellished by jazzy interludes. //
iam also not a fan of MX Jazz or whatever. but just one mx u cant decide he will do the same for all films. raw pure ja wise mx was a decent album only. may be he got writers block due to kamal’s non inspiring story. NEPV is perfect example he can do great new music if new gen dirs or old biggies collaborated with him with a fresh script unlike MX. Hope we get Sabaash Naidu which will eventually prove this.
////Whereas Day by Day is more like IR trying to imitate a jazz standard, doing a Rahman in that sense (because Rahman tends to mimic the authentic genre he is emulating rather than make it his own). In Sayndhu Sayndhu, he is experimenting confidently. Yes, it could have maybe happened a couple of years earlier (but not mid nineties)but somebody would have had to afford the budget to work with those Hungarian musicians and record it abroad. You cannot do justice to such a lush song by recording it in India. But here again, we come back to the role of directors and you have inadvertently helped me by mentioning that it was GVM who approached him with a canvas like this.
In IR’s words, “Nobody has asked me to do something like this in a long time”. So, this is the part directors also have to play by challenging him. And they wouldn’t have challenged the no.1. They would have accepted whatever he gave them as long as it was in his vintage style because it was the formula that worked. That formula had to fail commercially for IR to have room again to experiment with a different approach. And that is the metaphorical feedback I referred to in my article. No director would have dared tell IR that it was time for a new approach. Rahman through market forces conveyed it to him. It is disheartening that both NEPV and Megha tanked at the BO. I was really looking forward to see where this Raja genre thing gets to as it’s the most exciting development in his music in years. But there haven’t been other projects with that scope since. There was also Rudramadevi but it’s a time period epic so it’s more like Guru (Malayalam).////
//In IR’s words, “Nobody has asked me to do something like this in a long time”. //
I dont remember raaja saying this, if so, please get me the link. even if it takes time, i will wait. But from the NEPV composing session video posted by GVM, he is asking SaaynthuSaaynthu shud start with guitar(which Raja says ஆரம்பத்துலயே ஒரு Limitation!), and then explains when and where the song happens. Also the situation of all the songs shows there is noting really extraordinary GVM wud hav asked Raja. All i assume is Raja knew GVM is a popular director, has some youth following, makes nice romance movies, shoots songs beautifully. So i dont see waht really great GVM as asked that Raja wonders nobody has asked me something like this. Also, what GVM did, that much is enuf to inspire and make raja feel freshto make fresh music. ரொம்ப எல்லாம் போட்டு மண்டைய உடைச்சிக்க வேணாம் unles you really have a great story which is NOT the case with NEPV!
All i see is Raja has not got a dir like GVM for long time! thats it! So that, along with producer pumping some huge money both in film and raja’s favourite London Orchestra recording, Raja naturally wud hav thot to go for a kind of complete Revamp Music and came up with the album. I see not just SaaynthuSaaynthu but most songs, Satru Munbu, Title track, Pengal engdraal, Vaanam mella(my top pick! man a heavy WCM based kind of duet!) all as honey dipped totally fresh music! And Ennodu & Kaatrai konjam as breezy melodies! This whole album just reiterates the fact that if Raja worked with new fresh team, this the output!
Agree you have somewhat musically deeply analyzed SaaynthuSaaynthu and according to you it stands tall apart from almost all songs! But using that as a pivotal point to say so many flawed statements like market pressure from rahman etc only were main reason for raja to come up with a gem like this, and he was mostly repeating patterns in 80s becos he had no time, and onyl the free time(which acc to you was becos of ~rahman!!!) which raja got now enabled such a song!
I have a friend in twitter Venkiraja, who is always hell bent on kamal and comes up with crap logic just to pull kamal down! According to him, Raaja and Goundamani(yes!) are the ONLY greatest and top most innovators or TFI and NOT at all Kamal! One reason among a bunch of crap, he says to justifies that is, Kamal has copied(!!) a lot from international films but all of Gounder Comedy is poure gold original! Even if you agree that gounder comedy is original, the point he wud like to make is just to pull down kamal, thatsall! To achieve it, he has set a strange filter so that kamal naturally gets eliminated! Its for even a kid to understand and agree that such a filter can apply only to him and not at all to majority, any kind of majority. Mass majority or class majority! Likewise, you hav got hold of unique SaaynthuSaaynthu and set it as the ONLY filter and qualifier to be held as an innovative song(which filter will work only for you!) and you declare that filter as the ultimate tool to measure Raja’s creativity and capacity and write some crap results based on that filter! Needless to say, none of those results bear logic. To add authenticity, you keep on say that you also agree that raja has been innovating all through! முடிஞ்சி போச்சு! Balanced all sides! எவன் வந்தாலும் நான் மாத்திக்க மாட்டேன், லாஜிக்கே இல்லனாலும் நாஞ்சொல்றது தான் சரி உண்மை சத்தியம் mode!
To Conclude this loooooooong writeup(very sorry, LOL!) there are some longstanding thoughts i have on raja which i hope you will agree easily! I also have this thought of, this man having potential still something up to mark is not happening. One thing is very clear. EVen b4 Rahman, he has kind of started to loose his commercial grip on his own itself. Starting of 90s itself he started becoming more WCM and experimental based. That நெஞ்சுல மிதி level of kickass commercialness(which used to be there till 80s) started to go missing in his commercial films itself. But yes, in-spite of all that, and Rahman coming in 92, still he had commercial pull till say some 95 or even end of 2K. But those set of crowd was becos of the commercial pull he earned in the past 70s 80s. THAT 2 decades effect, added with a Huge audience with decade of trained ears, were kind of ok-ish to some extent, to most of the experimental and more classical mode of music he made in whole of 90s. But same time masses heavily started to change and to land in other MDs camps. By end, almost complete changeover has got completed. By then, from whole of 90s, the most commercial album he made, which also made to album sales also, was could be Rajini’s Veera. EVen Kaathalukku Mariyaathai was a classical superhit, not a commercial Blockbuster Album like Veera(even there most of Cassette Sales attribute to Rajinifans) In btw, he tried his commercial pull in movies like Raasaiah which didnt at all worked to the expected level. And he also tried rahman’s pattern in few songs like பொட்டலு காட்டுல(yuvan singing lol!) from காதல் சாதி, which also went unnoticed. But there is not even an iota of doubt that 90s was the period he ggrew even more stronger as a GReat of the Greatest Classical Composer, just the penultimate new patterns melodies, BGMs, songs grew up as an endless list!
From there to this 2017 is a different journey, with an ageing Raja and a changing industry, his quantity has reduced, which is OK! But still there are films like Amma Kanakku where we expect he wud do great, but not happening. Even movies like Appa, which was a very above-averageish film both content and BO wise, his music didnt stand out much, BGM was class. So, there are hiccups for sure. Even films like Love and Love only, are going much unnoticed. In a way hope is slight reducing, But there is no doubt that IF, if, if, he got projects Like NEPV, Sabaash Naidu, we can mostly get the result we expected! Also not to forget, the dozens of unreleased films and few individual albums raja has already finished recording, are lying in cans. One hopes they come out soon!
(Dunno how to conclude this looong but somehoW! lol!)
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Madan
April 18, 2017
One point I want to revisit re the pallavi-charanam v/s non charanam format. I don’t see it as repetition but just our songwriting tradition. So…99% songs in popular Western music (namely, pop, rock, R&B, blues, country) are also in verse chorus format. Prog rock is not popular music. 😉 Only few popular songs like ABBA’s I do I do could be said to have something like our pallavi-charanam format. So how come nobody sees that as a problem with Western music and rather just as the accepted format of popular music? I don’t see using pallavi-charanam as a problem per se (though as I said above, I thought NEPV was a good opportunity for IR to try non charanam format). Also, many songs of ARR like Uyire, Ennai Kanavilayae, Anjali Pushpanjali, Kadhal Sadugudu, etc are in pallavi-charanam format anyway (and these are some of his biggest hits over the years).
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rothrocks
April 18, 2017
@tekvijay: Instead of writing a long and rambling post and apologizing for the same, I would prefer that you just took the time to edit it and make a concise reply if you really intend myself or anybody to address it. If you are not interested, then let me know accordingly so I don’t have to bother responding. As done last time, I will only address a few points:
I gave innum enna saiya pogiraya as an example of innovation vis a vis innisai mazhai. I don’t think you understand the concept of example. Having said that, let me be blunt now w.r.t your crowing about pottu vaitha kadhal. It’s a pretty unremarkable song with an unremarkable interlude which is repeated. If you are even moderately exposed to western music, you can tell the difference between a ponmeni/poo pota dhavani and a pottu vaitha kadhal.
Now coming to choking harmony, have you ever been to a heavy metal concert AND a jazz concert? Ever tried listening to the basslines at a metal concert? It’s much harder because of the loud drums and guitar drowning it. Further, the stiff drum patterns give the bassie no choice but to simply accompany the guitar. In a jazz show, the drums are softer and the beat is much more playful, giving plenty of scope for the bassie. By the way, this is just a generalized observation to demonstrate what I am saying! That is why I said loud and more rigid beats drowned harmony in IR’s fast songs in the 90s. You can always point to a slap lick here and there but it’s a far cry from his 80s work. He didn’t have a choice. If pop music chose MJ over Stevie Wonder, what was IR to do?
Re GVM it’s pretty simple. He told IR that he wanted a new sound from him that hadn’t been heard before. That is why IR said nobody had approached him with something like this before.
By ‘restricting’ IR to guitar, he was simply pushing IR to innovate in a particular direction, that is, to write a song around a guitar lick and still blend it into his style. Limiting options can actually bring the best out of a composer rather than giving him a clean slate with no directions. You don’t seem to have either the patience or the discernment to understand that. Now don’t whine. If you make personal comments, I can too. So we are even now. Ok? 🙂
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brangan
April 18, 2017
All: Thanks for your comments. Just one request. Can you not quote entire chunks of earlier comments? Makes the resulting reply bulky and intimidating to read.
Madan: loud and more rigid beats drowned harmony in IR’s fast songs in the 90s
I kind of agree with this. You can see this in a song like “thathom thalaangu,” where everything is “balanced” at the same cacophonous level.
But my question is this: Isn’t this the recording engineer’s fault? Because it’s a terrific song from a “compositional” standpoint. Isn’t the “drowning out” more to do with the recording than the composing?
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Arjun
April 18, 2017
“It is an IMPOSSIBLE task to dish out 50 movie soundtracks of quality! Even for a mammoth talent like Raja. Just not possible. Assuming the bare minimum of 4 songs per film, that’s 200 songs in a year and EVERY SINGLE one of them a gem?”
Maybe not 200, but there are quite a few years which saw Raja give 50-100 gems. Whereas Rahman and others that followed have never crossed 10 in their best year.
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rothrocks
April 18, 2017
@ Brangan: To some extent, it’s the recording. But to some extent, it’s the nature of the beast. When you use a very busy and well vigorous beat like that, it kind of draws attention to itself. Say the best Rick Rubin production is still going to have drowned out bass compared to a late 50s Brubeck album because the music itself is more rhythmic and forceful. In that sense, there’s nothing wrong per se with thathom but Imo it opened up a possibility for other composers to more easily emulate IR. To compose something that is rhythmic, dynamic and complex all at the same time like ponmeni is much harder to emulate. Even if the attempted thathom copy did not exactly reach IR heights, it would be closer than before because if they got the beat right and used same SPB-SJ combo they would be halfway through. A track like ponmeni still creates lot of space for IR to even take away the drums and slip in a lilting flute. When you have a thathom like beat it’s harder to achieve such a seamless transition.
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rothrocks
April 18, 2017
@ Arjun: Definitely in mid 80s, 50 or so great songs is not a stretch. So it’s not like ARR equalised by focusing on fewer films. It’s just that music stations/TV channels cannot do justice to IR’s vast, vast catalogue. Speaking of Jaya max, they played a malaysia- SJ duet from athisaya piravi yesterday; can’t spell out the words just now. But anyway I was hearing it after a long time on TV. The Malaysia IR show was maybe the first since 2005 where they performed Metti Oli. So I think his being prolific has paid off at the end of the day; impossible to get bored of listening to the same IR songs.
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naveenkrwpress
April 18, 2017
i believe IR has many projects for 2017…let us hope for some gems
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KayKay
April 18, 2017
“Maybe not 200, but there are quite a few years which saw Raja give 50-100 gems”
Yes, who’s denying this? Read my post again. IF, as I say, Raja composed for 50 films a year and each soundtrack produced 1 terrific number, that’s 50 terrific songs a year. If each of them had 2 hits, that’s a 100 hit songs a year. I specifically said, at his peak, Raja was more than capable of this feat. But to assert that he could compose FIFTY WHOLE soundtracks of quality is pushing it.
Let’s take a year of Raja’s peak creativity, 1985. He composed for 45 Tamil movies that year (thank you, Wikipedia!). From that list, I rate 4 soundtracks as being absolute gems i.e every single track of it would make my playlist (Mudhal Mariyadhai, Udhaya Geetham, Sindhu Bhairavi and Idhaya Koil). Stretching it a bit, I would say I like MOST of the songs in Thendralai Ennai Thodu and Pagal Nilavu.. Most of the other movies had a good song or two, but would you rate them as amazing SOUNDTRACKS?
Other examples from 1985:
I love “Penmaane Sangeetham Paadava” From “Naan Sigappu Manithan”. Any other memorable songs from this movie?
I know “Goods Vandiyile” and “NIlavu Thoongum Neram” from Kunguma Chimizh were hits. But was the whole album a hit?
And we’re talking just 1 year. Take any year of Raja’s peak creativity and output, and you’d get the same story. I still rank “Kaadhalin Dheepam Ondru” as one of Raja’s most haunting and evocative ballads. Ever! Now tell me, if every other number in “Thambikku Endha Ooru” is as gorgeous or infectious.
This is of course very subjective. Someone else may like up to 10 or even 15 whole soundtracks from 1985. But you’d be hard pressed to find someone who’d rank every single one of those 45 films as being absolute classics in terms of a complete soundtrack experience. I mean, c’mon, after the wonderful “Mundhanai Mudichu” even hard core Raja fans had trouble warming up to songs from Bhagyaraj’s follow up Chinna Veedu, which echoed the filmgoers’ sentiments as well.
“Whereas Rahman and others that followed have never crossed 10 in their best year”….where you hard core Raja fanboys lose me is when you reduce the whole discussion into a dick-measuring exercise. “Raja composed X number of songs in his best year, Rahman can’t even touch this on his best year. by the time Raja was at his peak, his annual output was 5 times Rahman’s peak year output blah blah blah”.
Once again, I have to say” Who the fuck is denying all this?” Even hard core Rahman “Fan boys” (a club I’ve been lumped into) won’t challenge Raja’s intimidating output during his peak years. That’s not the point of the article which touched on the freshness of Raja’s music after more than 2 decades of ruling TFM and how a scaling down of his prodigious output may have helped him re-discover the freshness in his composition. Disagree with this all you want, and when ppl like tekvijay provide track by track examples where this is not the case, I’m actually quite interested. But when you flash (for the zillionth time) Raja’s “50 films/year which his contemporaries can’t ever match” credentials it gets old. Not to mention boring.
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KayKay
April 18, 2017
“The Malaysia IR show was maybe the first since 2005 where they performed Metti Oli”
rothrocks, I was at that show, and I recall my friend turning to me when they played that and said “Do you know this song? Was this a hit?” 🙂
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rothrocks
April 18, 2017
@ Kay Kay As to who was denying that IR had maybe 40-50 great songs in a single year sometimes, you might recall one Kadakumar who came up with the claim that IR had maybe a 100 hit songs at best. I wish we could keep all this baggage out while discussing but it seems impossible. Thank God I didn’t grow up in Chennai in the middle of IR v/s ARR fan wars. Paithiyum pidichukurum.
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naveenkrwpress
April 18, 2017
@rotchrocks, think of what all you missed. getting blown by dhalapathi, mounaragam or roja, alaipayuthe first hand. the fan wars will go on, if not IR Vs ARR, there are bigger wars going on – kamal/Rajini, Ajith/Vijay, Dhanush/Simbu etc. the biggest and strangest of all that is going on in the political circles in TN. more gripping than fiction
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MV
April 18, 2017
There’s just this one thing which my friends tell me : We believe Rahman upstaged Raja, but that is mostly an urban phenomenon, or may be across a few B centres too. But pan TN, no one, not even vintage Rahman of the 90s could dominate like Raja.
I, being from Madras, (no not the new Chennai, but pazhaya Madras that calls T.Nagar as Mambalam) can understand and resonate with what the writer has tried to convey.
Coz I was a verithanamana Raja fan (please: Adichaachu Lucky Prize from Eeramana Rojavey was a classroom song for us 12 yr olds) till Rahman came by with Netru Illadha Maatram (yup not even Chinna Chinna Aasai) and swept us away to his camp.
But my friends (from Sivagangai & Madurai) assert that perhaps a Kizhakku Seemayile or Muthu or Indian or Kadhalan could be claimed as popular in the interiors, not Thiruda Thiruda or Bombay or Uzhavan or Love Birds. Heck, Chinna Mappley soundtrack was better recieved than Uzhavan there (Thanks to Kaadhoram Lolaakku).
I just love both the MDs and if you had asked me my pick out of the two when I was 28,it would have been Rahman hands down. At 38, both belong to past memories, and I would probably say Raja now.
TekVijay I dont know your age or where you hail from. But such things do happen. We view our past with tinted lens and Raja very much deserves the pink-est of lenses! But some of the other commenters and the author seem quite unbiased and fair in their perceptions. In my humble opinion 🙂 🙂
Ps: TekVijay is right about Raja being ditched by some of his long time collaborators. Wouldnt call it mean or something, but after they experimented with Rahman and returned to Raja (say like P.Vasu) the magic (or mass appeal) was lost!
Ps2: The claim that Hindi songs were ruling the roost (or radios!) In Tamil Nadu was made by Panju Arunachalam (who introduced Raja in Annakili) in his series in Ananda Vikatan last year.
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tekvijay
April 18, 2017
Kaykay,
I only said that Raja was able to give 50 films per year and still maintain a great great quality. I didnt say all 50 FULL albums were hit and became classic, But MOSt of it was.. Surely there cud be dull music/song/interlude/bgm. But to elaborate what i said, i meant that Raja increased the no of films but the quality which is supposedly expected to decrease, only increased to much greater heights. I am not into this concept of taking an album and reviewing it for totality. My habit is to like a song even if it had just one great interlude and rest were duds. In that case i will rate that song too high based only on that interlude and i will mention that too(saying for example) In that sense, the amount of greatness in BGMs and even in many interludes of those era are not even still measured completely. Navin mozart’s youtube channel is full of such great music and still he himself is yet to cover many great albums. Such is the monstrous quantity where Quality also stays top notch, which is something totally not even touched by other composers. Rahman making too great impact with very less no of albums is NOT what iam talking about, have NOT criticized it anywhere in my comments and i have just no issue in agreeing the fact that Rahman did a really great job there. Iam not clubbing it with Raja’s 50movies per year trait. Iam reviewing Raja’s that Both Quality and Quantity Talent as a standalone one. So, my statement that Raja’s this achievement just has No other MDs to be kept near with, is valid.
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tekvijay
April 18, 2017
KayKay,
//tekvijay, read your looooong posts above and I’ll concede you make a few good points, many of them put forth rationally. But then you say things like://
In your this reply, i almost agree most of it and i have no qualms in agreeing that i am not that knowledgeable in MSV era though i am aware he also have did lot of innovations till his last bit of movies even as he got faded. Just that iam basing my that opinion on a general hearysay fact (which i heard frequently) that in 76 while raja came in, there was a dull moment with MGR quitting movies for politics, Sivaji fading away slowly and also Music scene was bit dull that Hindi songs were played widely in TN. Again this may be wrong.
Coming to Raja-ARR part, whatever we say, there is one difference btw “MSV era to Raja transition” and “Raja to ARR and other MDs” transition. That is, there was not any tuff btw MSV and Raja. Instead, Raja tried to avoid Sridhar to jump from MSV Camp to his camp. HE even went on to say “MSV அண்ணாவையே கைவிட்டுட்டு தூக்கிப்போடுற இந்த உலகம் நாளை என்னையும், யாரையும் இதே போல் நடத்தும்” Now iam not going to say that Rahman also shud have said like that to the Directors/Actors/Producers who came to him from Raja camp. It is totally those Dirs/Actors/Producers choice on whom to choose for their films. I also agree its people, Listeners who gave thundering success to Rahman. But, is that the only intention for the anti-raja camp? Did all the new MDs intros, like Devendran Deva(not intro though) Maragathamani and finally Rahman, just ONLY to
find new talent or also to try to defeat Raja musically? Finding new talents should actually be encouraged, and Competition is not illegal, agreed. But just ALSO want to highlight their hidden intention! Can you say no to that? Those anti-raja camp surely passed lot of indirect comments hitting against raja and praising rahman. Praising Rahman cannot be quoted as a problem but just to point out their ‘intention’ and their acts after Rahman won. There was one instance Vairamuthu and Barathiraja was praising rahman on account of Kizhakku Seemayile. “நகரத்தில் இருந்து வந்த இளைஞர் நகரம் சார்ந்த நவநாகரீக பாடல்களை இசையமைப்பதில் என்ன அதிசயம்? ஆனால் கிராமத்து பாடல்களிலும் அசத்துகிறாரே” something on this lines! LOL! Raja came from village and still composed umpteen amount club songs, discos in all modern genres. Even there, you can say all is well. They praising Rahman unduly doesn’t mean they are attacking Raja.
But whatever we say, there WAS some ugly talks going over interviews in magazines etc, of course from both sides. That was not the case during MSV-Raja Transition. Anyways, after ALL of that, i personally feel that still they won Raja only commercially and Musically they could not overall win Raja, at all. My opinion! My 0.0002 cents! But i stand by that! That is the Basis of all of my Musical taste, respect of raja and everything. If my that opinion could be broken, then i am no more a Raja fan, but i am sure it cannot be, according to me! Of course i come to this conclusion after years of months of hours of listening, (trying to) analyze, understand Raja’s Genius bit by bit, and i will be continuing my rest of life doing the same and also would like to bring them to public space and present them in a manner which most of us could at least understand it, agreeing it can happen later 🙂
Anyways Thanks for reading my HORRIBLE writing, i am not at all good at this 😦
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tekvijay
April 18, 2017
Good that i randomly brought in Innisai Mazhai for an example of an album with a fresh set of tunes! Being looping whole album for the day and what a Joy! Among all, wud like to mention this “Vaa Vaa Mannavaa” what a beautiful pathos! When Jaanumma sings “Vaa Vaa Mannava” in minor scale evoking pathos feel, an Guitar parallely plays in harmony in major scale, Major scale which is meant for evoking happy mood, is here still strengthening the pathos already created by the minor scale melody! Oh Raja whatte beauty you are! Still how many countless gems are waiting to be hidden! Of course, just drop all this theory and the song just works too great for a layman-ish listening which is what most of us do for most of time! Music wins emotionally and theory takes a backseat for a while!
(Now don’t jump on me saying how do i fix major scale for happiness and minor scale for sad emotion! It’s just one rule among many, and every rule has an exception too! Raja has mostly done music on both sides!)
‘Mangai nee Maangani’ in Raja’s Voice, dope it is! “Adi Netriravu” honey dipped melody with an unique rhythm in pallavi(synth i guess) Any average layman-ish music fan will surely agree that this whole album is somewhat unique on its own, compared to most of the past raja albums!
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Arjun
April 18, 2017
@kaykay: “Yes, who’s denying this? Read my post again. IF, as I say, Raja composed for 50 films a year and each soundtrack produced 1 terrific number, that’s 50 terrific songs a year. If each of them had 2 hits, that’s a 100 hit songs a year. I specifically said, at his peak, Raja was more than capable of this feat. But to assert that he could compose FIFTY WHOLE soundtracks of quality is pushing it.”
Then we don’t disagree there. I am not a fan of the numbers game, but it started with tekvijay touting an exaggerated number (50 top quality sountracks/yr) to which you responded and with which I implicitly agreed. But I don’t care much about approaching IR’s repertoire as soundtracks so what I was pointing out was that if you look at it in terms of number of songs/yr rather than soundtracks, 100 top notch songs is NOT an order of magnitude lesser than 200, and certainly an order of magnitude higher than anything anyone else has managed.
As for the article itself, I find the thesis itself rather superficial and lacking in historical context for reasons spelt out by Suresh and dagalti earlier. The choice of song,,album and year are particularly inapt. My own opinion is that the change in IR’s sound in mid-late 90s and into the 2000s was more to do with some of the arrangement work being outsourced to Karthik Raja.,him being largely out of work otherwise. Cheers.
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Madan
April 18, 2017
“think of what all you missed. getting blown by dhalapathi, mounaragam or roja, alaipayuthe first hand” – Idk, growing up I was aware of dhalapathi, roja, alaipayuthe, among many other films as they ‘happened’. There was TV after all, so I didn’t miss much. Of course, I didn’t witness these songs getting played in every nook and cranny but for me that is not very important. The roars, whistles, applause etc will fade away but the music will live on.
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Madan
April 18, 2017
“Musically they could not overall win Raja, at all” – So we can agree on something after all. 🙂 And at this point, I want to say something which I have said often to IR fans, esp the HCIRF kind. It’s ok. No, really. Just yesterday, Alan Holdsworth, a great, great fusion guitarist from UK passed away and some of his more popular musician friends pitched in to raise money for his funeral…because his family didn’t have any. And it isn’t like he was a junkie who frittered away all his money. He just never found a mass following and never made much money off music. So focus on the positive side of it, that a maverick genius like IR got a chance in film music. The odds of it happening again are pretty, pretty slim. You people harp on the injustice done to IR and not without justification but you don’t realise how fortunate you, we all have been to have lived in the IR era. What happened to Holdsworth is what happens to many talented musicians because they are too far ahead of their time for the audience to fathom what they’re trying to do. Somehow, the public embraced IR back in the day and enjoyed a rich feast, with the desserts continuing to be served to this day.
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Madan
April 18, 2017
“ome of his more popular musician friends pitched in to raise money for his funeral” – When I say pitched in, they basically organised a crowdsourcing.
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Ravi
April 18, 2017
Ar Rahman is cool and we all love him and his music. Sound of Roja was unique and catchy then that there were not anyone who wouldn’t be talking about ar rahman. In fact there were government aided public awareness ads being aired on Doordarshan depicting loud “Mukkala Mukka bulla” landing truck driver in an accident whereas “Naan pesa ninaippathellam nee pesavendum” giving pleasant & enjoyable ride;just none could ignore AR Rahman whether or not they liked him then. But claiming people having got tired of Ilayaraja is just not acceptable. As i type this comment, i am in public bus and only ilayaraja songs are being played (not coincidence) right now . If people were indeed tired then, they should only have been more tired of Ilayaraja songs by now but they do not seem to be so 🙂
PS: I am not way too old; only 30 😉
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Naveen
April 18, 2017
the only few songs of ARR that moved/touched me, the way lot of IR songs did, were from karuthamma and Kizhakku seemayile. credit for those lyrics obviously go to vairamuthu. still ARR had brought in a perfect rural feel. it was nice to hear Janakiyamma too fall back to the IR type rural singing in Kizhakku…
as I always claim, it is unfair to ARR or to anybody to compared with IR. he is too much.a pathu thalai ravanan. it will take multiple generations to assess his work for the last 40+ years, the length, breadth and depth ( and other undescribable dimensions ) of it. Kamal had once mentioned that even during Rajaparvai making, Ir would disappear to take his music classes. he learnt Sanskrit so that he can do better justice to carnatic pieces in his music.
I think IR has probably contributed to the max no of sanskrit ( parts or full songs ) in IFM. Vaali used to collude with IR for those songs mostly ( Janani Janani, Om Shiv Om, Prelude to Nadhiyal Aadum Poovanam ) let us just be glad that we have seen a legend during our times, lived and discussed so much about him in realtime.
howmuchever i adore IR-SPB combo, my most fav of IR songs are with KJY – SriRaghavendra, Kovil Pura, Varusham padhinaru, Sindhu Bhairavi, Priya, PudhuKavidhai,the Fazil movies etc. I sincerely doubt anybody will ever get even near those heights. Please listen to the ‘Hrudaya Rangoli’ song from Pallavi Anu Pallavi or ‘Vedham nee’ from Kovil Pura.
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Ravi
April 19, 2017
Not “Naan pesa ninaippathellam nee pesavendum”. It is “olimayamaana edhir kalam nam ullaththil” 🙂
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Rakesh
April 19, 2017
Wow, it has been a while since the comments section exploded like this and any post with Illayaraja and Rahman as keywords is bound to resemble Mt.Vesuvius.
Here’s an interesting thought.
Illayaraja , though singularly responsible for wiping out whatever little clout MSV held during the 1970s-80s, still regarded MSV with great reverence, and there are numerous anecdotes, where they bumped into each other at the AVM recording studio and Raaja like a fan boy, pestered MSV with questions about certain songs from the 1950s. One of these discussions actually led to ‘Vaa Venilla’ from Mella Thiranthathu Kadhavu, with the original source material of that song having had its first iteration in the movie Chandi Rani.
Such camaraderie between the two, made it easier for a collaboration, a musical bridge between two generations. MSV dishing out tunes and Raaja taking care of the lush orchestration.
How mind-blowing would it be if someone could bring AR Rahman and Illayaraja and make them collaborate on an album !
With Illayaraja taking on the role of the elder statesman and being responsible for the tunes, and Rahman doing the sound engineering and programming.
Though this scenario is extremely unlikely, the only person who could theoretically bring them together is Gautham Menon. The box-office results of his movies notwithstanding, if there is one thing that is consistent from Minnale till Ennai Noki Paayum Thotta, it is his musical sensibilities. He attempts to do something new with his soundtracks, after his initial track record with Harris Jayaraj, switched to Rahman and then went to Illayaraja and now in order to keep things fresh, has worked with a composer whose identity is yet to be revealed( Ennai Noki Paayum Thotta), he cannot keep shuffling the pack for long, and one million dollar idea for him would be to ensure Raja & Rahman collaborate on a soundtrack.
Now that would be one soundtrack (hypothetical) which will reduce all the folks on this thread into sobbing wrecks !!
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MV
April 19, 2017
Rakesh: Dheiveega idea!
GVM has commented before in this blog and also in a recent interview, mentioned how he liked BR’s reviews even if they weren’t favorable (sometimes) to his movies (esp AYM).
So if you are reading this comment, Gautam – skip this and please go to Rakesh’s comment 🙂
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Madan
April 19, 2017
“If people were indeed tired then, they should only have been more tired of Ilayaraja songs by now but they do not seem to be so ” – Well, in 1980s, people grew tired of RDB but since his demise, RD mania revived and has only grown with the passage of time. It takes time for a composer to pass from current to ‘classic’. I guess that’s happened with IR. But if his new work held sway over the public in the same way as up to the early 90s, he would still be no.1 or at least close enough. I don’t remember if I mentioned it here or in some other thread but when my mum posted on FB praising NEPV songs, people started reminiscing about NEPV (the Ninaivellam Nithya song). 😦
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Madan
April 19, 2017
“How mind-blowing would it be if someone could bring AR Rahman and Illayaraja and make them collaborate on an album !
With Illayaraja taking on the role of the elder statesman and being responsible for the tunes, and Rahman doing the sound engineering and programming.” – It would be fantastic. I could add the numerous buts but we know what they are. So let’s just dream instead.
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Godz
April 20, 2017
This is how I see.. Lets Say Ilayaraja Sirs Prime years were until Roja Came which is 1992. So He was the undisputed king for like 16 years and he was around 50 years when Roja Came. Now A R sir is 50 currently. And IMO ARR is definitely giving us good songs.. But are they great.. Are they capturing the magic of his songs of the 90’s and 2000’s.. Honestly the answer is No. At least not yet. It was exciting to hear KV songs but not to the extent of Alaipayudhe or Uyire or even OK kanmani.. Every Empire has a dawn, Golden and Decline. Ilayarajas music empire is in decline Since the 1992’s and I dont want to mention anything about it (Except for some divine surprises like “Pichai Paathiram”) and this is out of respect. But what about ARR.. Is his music empire in decline.. Is he still holding the baton? Of course yes..I am not seeing anyone challenging him yet just like ARR challenged Ilayaraja through his music. Is ARR innovating enough or is he Complacent as Ilayaraja was with himself..? Does Age need to do anything with this? The answer is in the upcoming years.. If ARR can reinvent himself and give us a new version of ARR, I think the question of Greatness could be put to rest forever or otherwise its always a tough call or a tie or who knows Raja could be always Raja of music..
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Naveen
April 20, 2017
a combination of MR-IR-ARR-Kamal in a single project would be great
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ThouShaltNot
April 20, 2017
“Senthamizh Pattu” was another MSV-IR collaboration. Not sure how the work was split up, but there is a lovely rain song in that movie. No, not the kind of rain song involving Sridevi and a blue saree, although I don’t begrudge anyone that kind of indulgence (I’ve seen that movie many times over for the sake of a song, which was more a rite of passage). A song about the rains, this ones simply kindles joy without priming baser instincts. The tune and the lines are both impressive. Vaali, first sounding upbeat, extols the virtues of rain and then also turns wistful and bemoans its whims.The tune has a Rajaish feel to it and, if not mistaken, is set to the same raagam as one his early stunners with VJ, “Ennullil yengO yaengum geetham…”
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Madan
April 23, 2017
ThouShaltNot: It is not known what the arrangement with regard to dividing composing duties was in Senthamizh Paatu. Presumably the same as Mella Thirandhandhu Kadhavu, because there’s no trace of MSV in the orchestration. Nice song (my favourite is the duet Kaalaiyil Ketatthu Kovil Mani).
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Madan
April 23, 2017
Found a very interesting post from one Shashi on the TFM page written back in 1998 and with an id that seems to suggest he was working as a professor in Virginia. Reproducing only an excerpt from it:
“For anything in life “too much of a good thing can be bad”. Now one may argue as to what is good or bad but overall what I am trying to say is “anything in excess can become boring”.
This is especially true in art. For example, if you had visited the Smithsonian art collection (or any other large art museum for that matter) like any other average tourist–i.e., tried to rush thru the museum in about half a day, you would have felt exhausted firstly. Secondly, the joy you felt when you walked into the first room of paintings slowly wanes and towards the end you simply watch the paintings for the sake of completion. Remember these are masterpeices!! And, even they get to be boring! Some people claim they never grow tired of something they truly love and infact there may a few people among us who are born that way, but majority of them are not. In other words if people had a choice they are bound to choose.”.
Also, “I still have hope that once ARR’s position is more established and as he developes more self confidence he may not sway to the wishes of the producers and will truly give good alternative music and cut down on a lot of junk.” – This is what I felt too at the time but unfortunately I would say my hopes were largely belied. When MJ’s Bad notched up huge sales, predictably, some critics expressed disappointment in that they had hoped for him to show more musical growth from Thriller. My thoughts are somewhat similar and I understand that it’s not necessarily what Rahman fans feel which is perfectly fine. For me, consenting to the Humma Humma rejig was pretty much the last straw. Couldn’t help but think that IR would have never allowed something like that to happen. He might himself transfigure his compositions for Balki but at least he’s still owning it, not let somebody else tamper with his creation. Then again, the situation is very different today in the music industry and not in a way that is favourable to musicians’ interests.
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