Posted on August 3, 2017
My video interview with TM Krishna, on Tamil film music. (The promos appear first — these are bits that did not make it to the final cut of the interview.)
Copyright ©2017 Film Companion.
 | Satya on Girish AD’s ‘Premalu’ infuses… |
 | mvky on Readers Write In #681: Smart G… |
 | abishekspeare on Election talk… for those… |
 | theeversriram on Election talk… for those… |
 | MuchMuchMurghi on Imtiaz Ali’s ‘Amar Singh Chamk… |
 | Rahul on Girish AD’s ‘Premalu’ infuses… |
 | Rocky on Election talk… for those… |
| Rocky on Election talk… for those… |
| Rocky on Election talk… for those… |
 | Madan on Election talk… for those… |
| Madan on Election talk… for those… |
| Rahul on Election talk… for those… |
 | KK on Election talk… for those… |
| Rahul on Election talk… for those… |
| KK on Election talk… for those… |
Baradwaj Rangan 
Venky
August 3, 2017
TMK on tamil film music? I hope he didn’t bash “Ilayaraja” this time, in the interview. I consider myself an ardent admirer of TMK’s questions and his aesthetic philosophy to music. That said, I always wondered, how his aesthetic philosophy would have evolved, had he not spoken a single word about the shift of context he was birthing in carnatic music. It seems so tempting to apply BR’s film critiquing principle, “Trust the tale, not the teller”, to music, “Trust the music, not the musician”.
LikeLike
Jyoti S Kumar
August 3, 2017
Looking forward!
LikeLike
Akhilan
August 3, 2017
BR, looking great in that Paisley shirt… 😀
LikeLiked by 2 people
brangan
August 5, 2017
Put up the promos (above). Will put up the main interview as soon as it’s up (I think Monday).
LikeLike
Madan
August 5, 2017
Very appetising promos. Looking forward.
LikeLike
blurb
August 6, 2017
That’s the biggest smile we’ve seen on you yet. 🙂
LikeLike
brangan
August 7, 2017
The interview is up 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
sridharraman
August 7, 2017
@brangan, it’s probably a case of ease due to repetition or just familiarity (?) with TMK, but you are at your most casual in this interview. It would be nice to listen to a longer, uncut interview. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
August 7, 2017
Brilliant interview. At least as interesting as the Myskkin one, more interesting for me honestly as I relate more to music. I found myself agreeing strongly with the last part where he says we are now focused on creating soundscapes rather than melodies (in Raja speak, “tune-ae illai, yellam poidchu”) and also that it has become too neat and sanitised.
Ironically, this goes back to what he refers to Rahman’s well rounded sound. That is where the obsession with a perfect sound began. Not that earlier composers did not obsess with it, see how Ilayaraja used drum machines more and more going from early 80s to the end of that decade. He said in an interview that it was easier to do that than to repeatedly take the drum part until he got it right. But he and the other yesteryear composers lacked the technological knowhow to attain that utter sonic perfection and were also too busy to bother beyond a point. Perhaps fortunately, in retrospect!
Also agree with his summing up of the strengths of the three titans of TFM. Was really, really glad when he said IR was the one who really understood fusion. Not so much because he praised IR but because so few have articulated that distinction between IR and the other film music directors who experimented in Indo-Western synthesis so precisely.
LikeLiked by 2 people
sravishanker1401gmailcom
August 7, 2017
Madan : Your last line was bang on the good length spot.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Aadhy
August 7, 2017
For all the change (social and technical) he wants to bring into carnatic music (big admirer of him for that), I’m disappointed that he had to resort to the all-too-familiar traditionalist’s whine about today’s film music lacking depth. Considering the fact that he is clearly not looking for any carnatic aesthetic in film music, his definition of gravitas seems to be a little vague. He says composers need to give more importance to melodic motifs than the arrangement, and that’s where the creative soul of a song lies and not in the produced output, if what I understand is correct.
First, this way of composing doesn’t exist anymore, where the composer essentially dictates every single aspect of a song. Today’s compositions actually come out from a bunch of musicians jamming, experimenting and seeing if something exciting happens. It empowers every single musician and they bring their own creative energy, which is producing some brilliant, or atleast I must say, interesting music.
Second, the evolution of western genres like Metal, Jazz and Funk within Tamil film music has been tremendous. Here I’m not even talking about the technology, rather just pure playing skills, or in other words, the core musicianship. For example, Dhinakudhe (from Pizza) is a song that I can call one of the best Jazz compositions from India, and we are talking about a genre that’s existed from the 19th century and has been used by most leading composers of India. I can cite examples for other genres as well, but what I’m getting at is, TMK is either basing his propositions on very limited sample space, or he just thinks the creativity involved in these styles aren’t comparable to Indian music styles, which is precisely the kind of attitude he’s trying to fight against.
P.S : Just to be clear, I’m not saying he shouldn’t think today’s music is shallow, just contesting the reasons that made him arrive at this conclusion.
LikeLike
Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 7, 2017
A very honest (and energetic) interview. I’m glad he talked about IR’s work in SB. I thought the decision to honour SB with the “Best Music” award is among the worst things to happen in the history of NFAs.
LikeLike
Arjun
August 7, 2017
Very good interview. His “IR collapsed the composition” criticism regarding mari mari ninne is unnecessarily harsh, though perhaps valid from a certain angle. But at the end of the day, all is forgiven since he “admits” IR is still numero uno 🙂
LikeLike
Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 7, 2017
Oh just to be clear, my criticism about SB is wrt KB not IR. 🙂
LikeLike
Jyoti S Kumar
August 8, 2017
Sir, just started watching the interview and my comment is more on the layout of the interview. Don’t you generally have a small intro in the beginning of the interview about the person being interviewed? This video seems to have directly dived into the interview after the snippets. Considering FC has a national viewership, I believe the intro is very important, atleast as a write-up for both YouTube and FC site.
LikeLike
"Original" venkatesh)
August 8, 2017
Oh loved loved loved this.
Just wonderful. From a technical standpoint i think it was also because of the way it was taken , we did not have to sit and watch BR rifling through this notes, the interviewee could speak English properly and of course the energy level.
Awesome this.
LikeLike
Reuben
August 8, 2017
I am embarrassed to say I didn’t know who TM Krishna is before this interview. This interview led me to binge watch a lot of other interviews with him on the youtube and am completely mesmerised by his clarity of thought and the ability to articulate what he thinks and feels in clear and precise terms.
Thanks for the interview
LikeLike
Madan
August 8, 2017
“Today’s compositions actually come out from a bunch of musicians jamming, experimenting and seeing if something exciting happens.” – I will address this point as opposed to developing a song from a melodic motif up (the ‘traditional’ approach). First off, it’s not true that the earlier system involved the composer dictating every aspect of the song. That is only true of Illayaraja and possibly of Salilda. The other composers obtained a lot of input from the arrangers and also some of the better musicians in their troupe. Yes, the tune was all theirs but the music wasn’t.
Since you mentioned jazz, I will use jazz to argue for why the developing-a-motif approach leads to more ‘depth’ in the innovation. In jazz too, most performances or even recordings involve experimenting and improvising around a standard. Even in an ‘original’, the main motif is settled as the basis on which to improvise. These constraints give structure to the improvisation and push the composer/musician to work harder to innovate around them (because it is harder to disguise the fact if you do a very me-too ish number in this format). If you do not start with a motif and jam in the hope of landing on something a ka brainstorming, how will you know what you are innovating around? It may still be possible to stumble upon something that truly opens up new possibilities through the second approach but imo would require very high caliber musicians to collaborate. Like if you put Zakir, Shivkumar Sharma, Chaurasia all together. And even THEY usually like to have a starting point for their exploration because that is how they can explore the nuances of a particular raag.
If I take the Dhinakkudha song which you mentioned, it is essentially a very retro jazz number. Now, what if the composer had instead composed a song in Indian melody and then pushed himself to combine that with very jazz arrangements? Whether you find the latter as exciting to listen to as a retro jazz song with abrasive vocals is beside the point here; the latter is more difficult to do. Ilayaraja has done it both ways by the way. Day by Day from Honest Raj is a very heavily jazz based tune with jazz arrangements, not very different from Dhinakkudha while Niram Pirithu Parthen has Indian melody wedded to jazz arrangements (in this case, especially the second interlude, more oriented towards modern jazz). By and by, as Ilayaraja’s confidence in experimenting in jazz has grown, he has moved away from traditional jazz and closer to modern jazz and also less insistent on composing an entire song in jazz and instead blending it into his general style (what TMK refers to, I think, as internalisation). So when you say Dhinakkudha is one of the best jazz songs produced in the country, perhaps you mean it is one of the best for your listening pleasure because in terms of introducing innovations, it doesn’t go very far. Jamming towards a particular sound usually ends up being less ambitious than selecting a melody or a harmonic progression to develop and explore. What TMK said has been observed in popular Western music as well. There is a surfeit of exciting sounds and hand in hand a dearth of melodies and chords.
LikeLiked by 1 person
maru
August 8, 2017
Terrific interview Brangan, it was very thoughtful and Krishna was engaging and seemed careful not to sound condescending or elitist (which is his shtick in any case). For all his iconoclasm, openness to idiom and genre I agree with Aadhy that it wasn’t really clear that beyond the general comment on soundscapes vs melodic soul (some form of which can be leveled at any era of music) what his specific objections are to current day film music.
Also the promos seemed to be parts of the conversation that didn’t feature in the main interview. Is there an uncut version you can share on the blog?
Finally, the interview didn’t feature a discussion on current day film music lyrics (which is always a pet peeve, the lack of poetry in contemporary lyrics). Given Krishna’s embrace of folk music and contemporary poets like Perumal Murugan in the Carnatic idiom I was wondering about his thoughts on that.
LikeLike
rkjk
August 8, 2017
@Aadhy +1
Even I got the feeling that he was kind of contradicting himself. I have observed this in his other articles as well. He starts with a good mission statement and in the end regresses to a point close to the status quo.
Here, T.M.Krishna says outright that it is difficult to entice people outside the spectrum into the carnatic world. The corollary is this : carnatic music cannot be popularised beyond the niche that it already exists in. In a way, he is undermining his own cause, and regressed to the standard opinion of the establishment – that we tried but most people just don’t get it or are not interested. He’s totally playing into the hands of his critics.
I would love to get behind TMK and his cause. But his inconsistency is grating. When you want to further your agenda, you don’t second guess your own cause, at least not in public.
LikeLike
Aadhy
August 8, 2017
Madan : “First off, it’s not true that the earlier system involved the composer dictating every aspect of the song. That is only true of Illayaraja and possibly of Salilda.”
That is true. Even Rahman lets his musicians and singers improvise and most of the times uses those bits as they are. What I’m saying is the freedom today’s musicians enjoy is more and as a musician myself I welcome this change, as it obviously gives me more creative liberty. The composer at the end of the day has the right to choose what fits the song, the mood of the film etc.
“It may still be possible to stumble upon something that truly opens up new possibilities through the second approach but imo would require very high caliber musicians to collaborate.”
Well, I’m not saying there shouldn’t be any motif. I’m saying the motif nowadays (in the second approach) doesn’t restrict itselft to a melody or a tune. It could lie in the mood, in the chord progression, rhythm pattern, scale shifts, or even just in the lyrics. This is the beauty of evolution. The motif might not be apparent to one who’s not attuned with the genre but it always does exist. And the creative excitement lies in what you do around this base/motif. And no you don’t need to be a Zakir or Chaurasia to be able to do this. Go to any independent band’s concert today and you will amazed at the level of musicianship and creativity on display.
” Whether you find the latter as exciting to listen to as a retro jazz song with abrasive vocals is beside the point here; the latter is more difficult to do.”
I don’t want to talk about what’s more difficult to do because it is a function of the a) period it has been composed, b) cultural climate and also c) the composer’s strength. Both are equally creatively brilliant, IMO. But the fact that you can get closer to purer forms of Jazz without ‘Indianising’ the song is in itself a remarkable change I would say. In terms of standalone Jazz, Dhinakudhe is definitely purer. Among Raja’s examples, Day by day is definitely a better Jazz composition than Niram Pirithu parthen, but the former still has too much of classical string orchestration and also follows a Pallavi-Charanam structure. Dhinakudhe on the other hand is wilder with minimal arrangement, doesn’t follow any ‘stanza’ structure, has more scale shifts, and also solid solos from trumpet and guitar. But I would not say one is creatively better than the other. All I’m trying to say is, the argument of TMK that today’s approach is not in the right direction, that he music lacks depth and doesn’t have the gravitas, is very, very untrue. We are definitely evolving well. Now we can have a purer Jazz or a heavy metal number, as opposed to earlier eras where the music has to be Indianised for it to be accessible.
LikeLike
Aadhy
August 8, 2017
rkjk : If he’s just being honest and reflecting the current state of affairs, then I think he has a point there. But if it’s his belief that people outside the Carnatic world (performers and audience), wouldn’t show interest in taking up the art, then that’s absolutely detrimental to his own campaign. I liked what he did with the Urur-Olcott Kuppam vizha, trying to open doors of access to people who were never even allowed to take up the art. But there is a small problem with this approach. Without breaking the divinity or the religious (social construct) aspect that has been associated with Carnatic music, it’s inappropriate to preach this art to marginalized people, who were oppressed by the same construct in the first place. To his credit, he does try to break this construct by composing songs about social issues with pure Carnatic aesthetics, instead of hymns. It’s also hard for him that, within the Carnatic circle, he seems to be fighting a lone battle.
LikeLike
rkjk
August 8, 2017
@Aadhy : Think it was a mix of both. Being a lone warrior taking on the establishment must take its toll. Perhaps he’s had far too little success and that has made him cynical. But I think Tamil Film Music is the easiest and surest way to expose the pubic to carnatic. The attracting people who’ve grown up with the music was a good point. I myself fall under this category.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
August 8, 2017
“What I’m saying is the freedom today’s musicians enjoy is more and as a musician myself I welcome this change, as it obviously gives me more creative liberty.” – I understand. My perspective is that of a listener.
” It could lie in the mood, in the chord progression, rhythm pattern, scale shifts, or even just in the lyrics. ” – With the exception of scale shifts (as a motif, that is), all these things have also been done in the earlier model of film music. Ek Ladki Jo Dekha has no antara and a recurring lyrical motif. Mere Mehboob Tujhe uses two instrumental motifs which are used in alternation rather than full fledged interludes. So it’s not like Indian film music earlier had ONLY melodic motifs. The pallavi charanam was there and everything else on top of it depending on what the composer chose or did not choose to use.
“And no you don’t need to be a Zakir or Chaurasia to be able to do this.” – I mean that to come up with a substantial melodic or harmonic innovation WITHOUT having the music revolve around a melodic or harmonic motif is very difficult and would require musicians of the kind I mentioned.
“but the former still has too much of classical string orchestration and also follows a Pallavi-Charanam structure. ” – I don’t really agree about classical string orchestration because jazz is not always a non string music. I don’t find the string arrangements of Day by Day very different from big band jazz, in essence, as opposed to IR’s own classical/symphonic based songs.
“But I would not say one is creatively better than the other. ” – My point is if a Day by Day has already been done in the 90s, how can it be innovative to do a jazz track today? It might be good in its own right just like I am not going to call Phir Le Aaya Dil not a good song just because it is reminiscent of erstwhile ghazal based film songs. But is it innovative? Not in a big way at any rate. And regarding following the pallavi-charanam structure, Day by Day would still be complete if you removed the charanam and went back to the pallavi. In the track he did for Love and Love Only (which is definitely NOT a jazz track), he has used Western style verse-chorus. I do get where you’re coming from with regard to the aspects in which Dhinnakudhe is different, but for the lay listener these are nuances and may not catch their attention. The kind of change we went through from MSV to IR and then from IR to ARR hasn’t been seen since. The other aspect which I will also discuss in the next para is Dhinakkudhe might be ‘new’ for Indian film music but it is a generic jazz track in the larger scheme of things (hence why I prefer Niram Pirithu Parthen to Day by Day). The Indo-Western synthesis approach offered something fresh which was not happening anywhere else. But when Western genres are appropriated and mimicked in their pure form, they may be new to our underexposed ears but not new in a general sense at all.
“Now we can have a purer Jazz or a heavy metal number, as opposed to earlier eras where the music has to be Indianised for it to be accessible.” – My guess is that reading between the lines TMK is cautioning against throwing the baby out with the bathwater. While I agree with you that it is a positive development to have songs in our films which do not have to sound Indian at all apart from the words, if we go all in with this, we will lose a lot of the diversity that film music has. I don’t see film music as one monolothic style, rather as a song structure or set of song structure within which different variations are attempted. The problem when music directors tilt towards not only Western influences (which has been part of film music since the 1950s) but also entire Western genres and song structures is that for a listener like me, it doesn’t offer something I wouldn’t get from, well, Western music. While it may be exciting for you as a musician to have the opportunity for the first time to play purely Western music even within film music settings, from the listener’s perspective, there is no product differentiation when that happens.
LikeLike
Madan
August 8, 2017
By big band jazz, I really mean something by this, though Allaboutjazz tells me it is really called Jazz with Strings:
LikeLike
Aadhy
August 8, 2017
I don’t really agree about classical string orchestration because jazz is not always a non string music.”
I didn’t say Jazz is always non-string music. I’m saying the strings in Day by day is a bit too much, even for big band jazz, and very classical in its progression. Throughout both the charanams you could basically hear strings non-stop, swelling and dipping like a symphony. Whereas if you hear the song in the link you posted, you could hear the strings making its presence felt only when required, that too many a time in staccato bursts which is very typical of swing jazz.
Day by Day would still be complete if you removed the charanam and went back to the pallavi.”
I can only talk about what’s there and not about something the song could’ve been. The pallavi-charanam structure is very restrictive and basically against the very nature of a free-flowing genre like Jazz. I had this problem with even with Amit Trivedi’s Bombay Velvet. Raja might have done away with the pallavi-charanam structure (or the verse-hook for that matter) in other songs, but since we are talking about this specific song here, I reiterate that when it comes to getting close to purer forms, Dhinakudhe is a far better Jazz track. And please, please don’t take this is a comparison between Raja and Santhosh Narayanan. Having learnt some music, I would never ever do such a thing. But this complain that today’s music doesn’t have the gravitas or innovation is something I will vehemently disagree with.
“if we go all in with this, we will lose a lot of the diversity that film music has.”
The point I was making is previously you almost never had a song that adhered purely and completely to a western genre. Everything was fusion since there had to be an Indian influence to every song. But now both fusion and purer forms can coexist, since it’s become possible to do away with constraints now in Tamil cinema. As a listener you have a plethora of choices to choose from, be it fusion or a single-genre song. I understand that as a listener you’re only looking for a fusion. But would you call the freedom to not make every song a fusion, as regressive? And btw even musicians are listeners. So not just for playing, previously I only had to listen only to fusion. Now I get to choose between fusion and pure genre pieces (western), in Tamil film music only.This evolution is what I’m referring to as positive, and I don’t see it killing diversity in any way.
LikeLike
Madan
August 9, 2017
“Throughout both the charanams you could basically hear strings non-stop, swelling and dipping like a symphony. ” – I hear it differently, but then that’s what different tastes are about so I will leave it there.
“And please, please don’t take this is a comparison between Raja and Santhosh Narayanan. ” – You can, there’s nothing heresy about that at least as far as I am concerned (can’t speak for other Raja fans :P). I only gave the Raja examples as exhibits of jazz before Dhinakkudhe. Hmm, the point as to how it would attract a listener when the pure Western forms have already been explored in Western music itself remains.
” previously I only had to listen only to fusion. ” – Depends when you were born. For a long time, the freedom to not make every song a fusion always existed. There was the freedom to make…just Indian music. 🙂 No Western instruments, just stuff like harmonium, flute, tabla/mridangam, etc. If you are a 90s guy I can understand your saying you had to only listen to fusion because the space for a full Indian accompaniment was already shrinking say by the mid 90s. It was more pronounced in Tamil music where IR had already introduced a lot of fusion even in rural songs. Hindi music had a wider variety of Indian forms itself to choose from – folk, classical, ghazal, qawali etc so I’d say the change happened more in the noughties in HFM when tablas and dholaks suddenly began to disappear. It would be sad to see the entire gamut of Indian music reduced to a slice of something suitably quaint enough (i.e. what a Westerner would regard as Indian) but without much encouragement in film music, it is going to be difficult for many of these musicians to sustain. Like a song like Channa Mere Aaya would not have had any electronic percussion back in the day.
LikeLike
Madan
August 9, 2017
“For a long time, the freedom to not make every song a fusion always existed.” – I want to further add that fusion in the film music context was never one sound or one tone in the stereotypical sense in which the word is applied to some non film albums. If the use of ANY Western instruments with Indian melody qualifies a song as fusion, then Chinnamani Kuyile, Chittukuruvi Mutham, Ninnu Korri, Angum Ingum are all fusion but all very different from each other. So I would opine that the palate was still very broad and there was no one film music sound (a theory that Rahman for one has propounded). But tastes change and perhaps people tire of the pallavi-charanam format which starts to overshadow the variety otherwise available in film music. Also when TMK talks about today’s film music, I would assume he has the latest HJ or Yuvan soundtrack in mind and not the outliers like Santosh Narayahan or Amit Trivedi in Bolly. Even in the 70s and 80s, those who composed for parallel cinema had a different sound vis a vis regular Bollywood. But if you ask me what the typical HFM sound is to me, I think of Arijit’s sleepy voice soaring over a power ballad arrangement.
LikeLike
brangan
August 9, 2017
Madan: I may have missed something, but why take Day by Day as a “representative” Raja Jazz song over, say, a Mumbai XPress song? For me, Day by Day (despite the very weak singing by the vocalist) is a pretty regular format song but with beautful jazzy instrumentation. But in MX, the format itself is more “jazzy” (eg change in tempi etc) So was curious about this example.
Also, no love for MSV’s jazz numbers (Varuven oru pozhuthu, Ninaithathai nadathiye)? Given the era and the conservatism of tastes, these were much more of an avant garde assault on an unsuspecting public. 😀 And very hard to sing too.
LikeLike
rothrocks
August 9, 2017
@ BRangan: Just chronology, nothing more. Day by Day is much older. Also being slower compares better to the Pizza song. I do prefer Kurangu Kaiyil Malai though it too has a stanza. On that note, I want to mention one more thing! While I can’t remember any jazz tracks which have a second stanza in another tune (in Summertime Armstrong’s verse is like a ‘solo’ bookended by the main refrain), there are songs in Western music which have a verse chorus followed by another verse in a different tune followed by reiteration, that is, like Pallavi charanam. Best example is ABBA’s I do I do. So I am not sure I would say Day by Day is Pallavi charanam because the melody is entirely Western.
LikeLike
rothrocks
August 9, 2017
Not able to recollect the two MSV tracks you mentioned. Will have to listen and get back about it.
LikeLike
brangan
August 9, 2017
LikeLike
brangan
August 9, 2017
LikeLike
Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 9, 2017
Is “Day by Day” a promo kinda song? 🙂 I saw the film way back in 2002-03, and I don’t remember the song being a part of it.
LikeLike
Aadhy
August 9, 2017
“the point as to how it would attract a listener when the pure Western forms have already been explored in Western music itself remains.”
I see your point. But we’re talking about something new within Tamil film music itself. And It’s unfair to say there could be nothing innovative about composing a western genre song just because it’s been done to death in the west. It’s like saying there is nothing in Udaya Udaya (Udaya) that is more innovative than in Aadal kalaye (Sri Raghavendrar), just because both are carnatic-based songs composed in Raga Charukesi. Every single song is a creative piece on its own, even if it’s done in very popular genres (unless it’s a direct rip-off, of course).
” I want to further add that fusion in the film music context was never one sound or one tone in the stereotypical sense in which the word is applied to some non film albums.”
That is true. I don’t have a problem with fusion per se. As you guessed right, I am a 90s guy who, with respect to the TFM, was exposed to mostly or only fusion music. Growing up to Rahman, it was exciting back then to witness how he effortlessly blended the best of both worlds within the realm of Tamil cinema. But times are changing and he himself is slowly getting redundant now. New talents are moving closer to pure genre pieces, which makes their music sound fresh, even acoustically. The multiplicity of such composers and their releases will make it impossible for anyone to attain Rahman’s (or Raja’s or MSV’s) status, but they’re here to stay.
“But if you ask me what the typical HFM sound is to me, I think of Arijit’s sleepy voice soaring over a power ballad arrangement.”
Lol, I agree. In fact I see this movement towards pure-genre pieces less in HFM than in TFM. Every third song I hear either invariably has Arijit droning over some tepid melancholic tune, or some DJ Bollywood-ising EDM with faux Punjabi beats. Amit Trivedi has been giving some fantastic music, but even his strength lies in fusion, a superb blend of Indian classical & folk with styles like grunge rock, pop, etc. Ram Sampath is doing some good work as well. Rahman’s recent work there has been pretty mediocre to say the least. Shankar Ehsan Loy used to give some good punk rock tracks, but they suddenly seem to have much lesser releases now. Pritam, Vishal & Shekhar give some catchy music but they usually don’t last more than a month in my playlist.
Btw BR, thanks for introducing me to Vara vendum oru pozhudhu (never heard it before), what a song! Though it follows a traditional structure, it’s as seductive a Jazz number can get. Not a big fan of Ninaipadhai, I feel the singing and arrangement is a bit too loud (mixing problems maybe). However the rhythm shifts between Swing and Rock&roll are simply brilliant.
LikeLike
Madan
August 9, 2017
“. And It’s unfair to say there could be nothing innovative about composing a western genre song just because it’s been done to death in the west. “- I didn’t say that there could be nothing innovative about the endeavour ab initio. I meant that as far as Dhinakkudhe goes, I can’t imagine say allaboutjazz getting all rapturous about it if it was recorded by an American jazz group. That is, it is not enough that a pure Western genre song has not been done in Tamil music. Is it also innovative from a Western context? After all, the source is purely Western so it would also be evaluated from a Western prism.
” It’s like saying there is nothing in Udaya Udaya (Udaya) that is more innovative than in Aadal kalaye (Sri Raghavendrar), just because both are carnatic-based songs composed in Raga Charukesi.” – Not an apt comparison because a Carnatic ragam is equivalent to a Western scale and there are thousands of songs in a given Western scale too. But say if somebody writes a qawali, it has to bring something fresh to the table and cannot evoke the ‘staples’ of the genre like Yeh Ishq Ishq or Hai Agar Dushman too much. Even it was an American writing a qawali; I might commend the effort but I am not going to make an allowance.
“I see this movement towards pure-genre pieces less in HFM than in TFM” – Curious, are there other pure-genre songs that you could suggest? I don’t get to listen to new Tamil music on a day in day out basis so stuff that doesn’t get talked about much will escape me. Amit Trivedi’s Dhadaam is entirely devoid of Indian elements (except the language) but yes otherwise his strength is more fusion rather than pure Western. Ram Sampath’s Muskaanein Jhooti Hai also comes to mind.
LikeLike
Madan
August 9, 2017
@ BRangan: I don’t remember ever hearing the first track, may have but have forgotten now. Do remember the second one very well including many imitations of MGR’s style in that song over the years by friends and family. 😛 Yeah, similar views to Aadhy, prefer the first one, though there are some very interesting passages in the interludes of Ninaithathai.
@ HonestRaj: It may be one of those audio-only tracks. I don’t remember seeing a video of Pattu Poo Poo (Veera) ever. Maybe there is and I don’t remember it anymore or maybe it never got picturised. Shame, it’s probably the best song on the soundtrack or at least about as good as Madathile.
LikeLike
Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 9, 2017
Madan: Thanks. It was not until 5-6 years ago that I discovered “Pattu Poo”. Agree, it could well be the song of the album.
LikeLike
shaviswa
August 9, 2017
Is there an uncut version of this interview? This is easily the best I have seen so far.
LikeLike
ThouShaltNot
August 9, 2017
MGR as Jayalalitha’s music teacher singing “Thottu kaatavaa, maelai naatu sangeedhathai thottu kaatavaa…” (there is an interesting run up to this song in an UNCUT version). I love both the song and the dance.
MSV, to his many fans, was Piano man, Bongo man, Jazz man etc. More importantly, he was a simple man (no alattal), who (per his friends) knew practically nothing outside of music.
LikeLike
Aadhy
August 10, 2017
“a Carnatic ragam is equivalent to a Western scale and there are thousands of songs in a given Western scale too”
This is a very broad way to look at music, but I can understand since you are talking from the listener’s perspective. Where I was going with the comparison is that even if you have thousands of songs in a given scale, innovation comes from the way one sings the notes in that scale. The ‘gamakas’ Hariharan uses in Udaya, the sustained notes, the inflections, are totally new from how it has been used before, with respect to Charukesi in Tamil cine music. I don’t know what you mean by staples of the genre because each inflection used by one singer is different from another. But I agree when you say that when you look from a Western prism, maybe allaboutjazz won’t be gung-ho about Dhinakudhe. For me it’s an original composition, it’s not been Indianised, the solos are fresh even if the style is derivative and using it in a mainstream tamil movie to accentuate the mood is already innovative. If it isn’t the same case for you, fair enough.
“Curious, are there other pure-genre songs that you could suggest?”
Most of Santhosh Narayanan’s songs have been pure-genre, or atleast close to pure-genre pieces. Except in Jazz, I’m including songs in other genres which have a slightly Indian structure or singing, but have a pure western arrangement. I will list them here :
Jazz – Mama douser (Soodhu kavvum), Ottam (Jigarthanda)
Blues- Vazhi pathirunden (Attakathi)
Funk/Acid Jazz/Synthpop- Rathiri (Pizza), Come na come (Soodhu kavvum), Soodana poovey (Bhairava) and Kannal Modhadhey (Server Sundaram),
Heavy/groove metal- Thakida thakida (Kashmora)
Grunge/alt rock – Mayavisai (Irudhi suttru)
Hard rock/Rap metal – Neruppu da (Kabali)
Gangsta hip hop – Ding Dong (Jigarthanda), Veera Thurandara (Kabali), Kodi Parakudha (Kodi), Oru oorula (Kadhalum kadandu pogum)
Irish folk – Baby (Jigarthanda)
There are other new other composers who have been trying to get the closer to the genre sound, but have ended up producing mishmashes or a cluttered product. In Hindi, frankly I have not come across a lot of pure-genre songs. I will list some of what I remember right now.
Blues – Sham (Aisha)
Jazz – Girls like to swing (Dil Dhadakne Do), Musakaanein Jooti, Naak pe gussa (Bombay Velvet) and Dhadam
Funk – Bang Bang (Bang Bang), Beech beech main (JHMS, some parts of it)
Alt rock – Rock on title track
Punk rock – Socha hai, Wake up sid, Bhaag dk bose
Country – Illahi (Yeh Jawaani Hai Diwani)
This is all I can think of right now. I will come back if I remember more.
LikeLike
rothrocks
August 10, 2017
I’d call Wake Up Sid corporate rock notwithstanding that the title has the first name of the vicious one. I’ll check out the others (have heard most of the Hindi ones), my homework assignment for tonight.
LikeLike
Aadhy
August 10, 2017
rothrocks : I guess you’d already know Rahman’s jazz songs in HFM, though I would call them Jazz-based rather than pure-genre pieces. Jaane tu ya Jaane na, Masakali (only arrangement), Aise na dekho (Rhaanjana), Kya hai Mohabbat (Ek deewana tha). Sheher mera (One by two) by SEL is a good one.
Btw one question, just curious, I know both Madan and rothrocks are the same person, but is there a reason why you use two handles, in the same thread?
LikeLike
rothrocks
August 10, 2017
Aadhy: The reason is when I post from the phone, it gets posted in my WordPress userid rather than my own name. Tried to fix it and gave up.
LikeLiked by 1 person
blurb
August 11, 2017
OMG Madan and rothrocks is the same person?!
LikeLike
ThouShaltNot
August 11, 2017
I think Darbaari Kaanadaa was TMK’s response to the question about raagams handled well (with fidelity perhaps?) in movies. Another raagam similarly handled well (& for a long time) is Kalyaani.
KVM’s Mannavan vandhaaanadi thOzhi is considered a masterpiece in Kalyaani (owing to Sivaji + KVM + Susheela + Kannadasan + Padmini + APN; order is random 🙂 ) and KVM made an effort to handle it differently from G Ramanathan’s Sindhanai sei manamey, seidhaal theevinai agandridumey. MSV’s Kalyaanis were Isai kaettaal puvi asaindhaadum and Mugaththil mugam paarkalaam, viral nagaththil pavazhaththin niram paarkalaam. C.R Subbaraman had Ghantasala singing Thunindha pin manamey, thuyaram kollaadhey for Devadas. And for Raja, there is Yamunai aatriley, eera kaatriley kannan Odu dhaan aada (my favorite among raja’s), sundari, kannal oru saedhi, Janani, janani, jagam nee agam nee etc.
Madurai Mani (MSV’s assistant) conducts expository sessions on Carnatic music and film music and they are a real treat. In his sessions, he generally delves into details of the songs listed above (if not all). Consider my comments a gist of what I’ve gathered about Kalyaani from his sessions (with my own edits).
Here is KVM’s Kalyaani:
LikeLike
ThouShaltNot
August 11, 2017
Here is MSV’s kalyaani. This one I’ve posted because I like Pattukottai Kalyanasundaram’s lyrics here. PK rarely writes kaadhal paattu (kalayaana parisu perhaps). He instead wrote with monomaniacal zeal about podhu udamai. There is also a lot of folksy wisdom in PK’s songs.
…Anbey, igaththil irukkum sugam eththanai aanaalum, iruvarkkum podhuvaakalaam… (he still injects communal thoughts 🙂 )
LikeLike
Madan
August 11, 2017
@ Aadhy: Somewhat completed my homework assignment. I did not really find the Hindi examples particularly impressive to be honest. If you take a song like Illahi, other than the banjo, it could be any random Mohit Chauhan song. Bang Bang sounds no more pure funk than a Paatu Inge to me and further more is just like something off a new Jamiroquai’s new album that sounds more or less like Jay Kay’s 90s ventures in turn, lol. I am NOT trying to hold them up to IR’s standards, just analysing whether there is a new trend at work. I think the Hindi efforts are still pretty modest and as we have sort of discussed without saying so expressly, the appetite for something bolder perhaps isn’t there in HFM.
On the other hand, you have convinced me that in a particular way Santosh Narayanan has carved out his own niche by specialising in pure Western formats. I may not find it interesting for my taste but objectively, yes, it is something different if only for the sheer variety of genres he’s straddling. To imitate all of them authentically is a challenge in its own way (assuming they are not plagiarising and I will proceed that assumption unless shown evidence to the contrary).
Now, coming to whether Udhaya Udhaya is different from Adal Kalaiye only by virtue of the singer’s own inflections, I disagree. I think the former has more Hindustani phrasing. Now it is possible that in this case since it was sung by two singers who are well versed in Hindustani that they influenced Rahman to approach it that way. But even if that is the case, whether to treat a raga in a Hindustani or Carnatic way is still a compositional decision and not just a difference on account of which singer is handling it. The arrangements also emphasise this tinge of Hindustani vis a vis Adal Kalaiye. Further, even if two songs are in the same ragam, the length of the phrases, whether they have lots of short notes or a few long sustained notes, the order in which the notes are selected can all combine to explore a different aspect of the ragam. If this doesn’t resonate with you, I could enumerate the notes in the charanam of both to demonstrate it but I am hoping I don’t have to as it would be a real chore! 😛
Over and above that is the aspect of film music directors usually not going in for a pure treatment of the ragam and adding or subtracting some notes so that the song may be at best based on a particular ragam but not entirely in it. IR has gone further and done many experiments in blending different ragams in the same song (two particularly great examples I can think of are Adhikalai Neram Kanavil Unnai Parthen and Kangallukul Unnai Ezhuthu.) So there is a lot of scope for innovation in an Indian melodic framework more so because film music is not orthodox anyway.
” I don’t know what you mean by staples of the genre because each inflection used by one singer is different from another.” – I mean that if somebody writes a qawali today, I would not want the tune to evoke a Hai Agar Dushman too much. That’s too easy; almost everyone familiar with 70s Bollywood music or even those not so familiar with them know that song. Somebody trying to write a qawali must bring something fresh to the table rather than mimicking the most popular songs. Said another way, if somebody writes a power ballad very reminiscent of Just Break My Heart, I am not going to be impressed just because that somebody is an Indian. If you really must do a power ballad (why??), it has to have something that will make it not so cliche, not so typical of the zillions that assaulted the airwaves in the 80s. Basically, I am more interested in whether something avoids cliches and genre purity no longer fascinates me. Full disclosure: I am a proghead.
LikeLike
brangan
August 11, 2017
Aadhy: I’m curious why you think “pure” genre pieces are better. From a film music perspective, isn’t it more exciting to see how a music director internalises that genre — Ilayaraja-ises, if you will — and makes it his own (within the 4-5 minute span of the song)?
A tangential thought. Is it the fact that today’s films are using songs as “sound” that allows “purer” compositions in genres like jazz? In earlier times, most songs were either sung and even when used in the background (without actors lip-syncing), they served as an “asariri” commentary on the proceedings (random examples: O oru thendral puyalaagi… or Kaahe ko roye). And in the latter case, lyrics mattered (not just because of the commentary aspect but also because the accepted wisdom was that the lay listener should be able to hum or sing along). But today, songs can take the place of BGM in creating “mood.” So that may be another thing.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
August 11, 2017
“Is it the fact that today’s films are using songs as “sound” that allows “purer” compositions in genres like jazz?” – Yes, that could be one of the factors. If songs are only used in the background as a montage of images plays on the screen, a ‘signature’ style of music is superfluous and may even be distracting at times. IIRC at least circa Virumaandi Kamal still made it such that the songs could be used in the ‘old way’ and Unna Vida in particular was very absorbing to watch and hear on the big screen.The corollary to that is independent music has to pull its weight a lot more. And we do have the bands to do so but to convert an audience conditioned to listening to film music is going to take a lot more time. Besides, band only make any money at all on live shows, so this will also kill studio albums.
LikeLike
Aadhy
August 11, 2017
“…hoping I don’t have to as it would be a real chore!”
Lol you don’t have to. I guess I didn’t put my point across effectively. I used that comparison to say differences and innovative nuances would exist even if it’s composed in the same raga. And most of these differences are definitely compositional, never said only Hariharan’s singing brought them to the song (although he might have contributed significantly). The emphasis I made was on the ‘difference’ aspect, the new composition also being innovative despite being derivative of an old style. So I think we are saying the same thing here.
” I did not really find the Hindi examples particularly impressive to be honest.”
I don’t find them very impressive as well. As in I like them because they are fun, but not as true genre pieces. I gave those examples in an attempt to dig out atleast some Hindi songs that come close to genre pieces, or atleast remotely close. As I’d mentioned previously, the movement seems to be not that big in Hindi.
“Full disclosure: I am a proghead”
Was never in doubt :), especially after the discussion veered into what constitutes innovation and not. But I found the discussion refreshing, considering I had to previously evade some angry metalheads in a forum, after I said something on the lines of Djent not being very prog as it relies more on the amp than technique. And really nice of you to have listened to the songs as well, most people would never bother.
LikeLike
Aadhy
August 11, 2017
@BR : I’m curious why you think “pure” genre pieces are better.
In Tamil film music, we used to have pure Indian genre-pieces, in the days of MKT and the like. Slowly with the decades of MSV, Raja and Rahman we moved into the fusion era, where these composers would add western arrangement or atleast western instrumentation to a strongly Indian melodic base. As we went from MSV to Rahman the contribution of Western genres grew. But nevertheless atleast till Rahman, the Indian base or the Indian part of the song was rock solid, since these composers had a sound knowledge in Indian classical aesthetics. As a result, their attempts at fusion sounded so fresh, internalized and original. Rahman’s ascent till the dawn of the new century was unmatched by his competitors like Deva, S.A.Rajkumar etc.
After Rahman’s peak, say around 2001-02, a plethora of new composers like Harris, Yuvan, Vidyasagar, Ramesh Vinayagam, Imman, burst into the scene. Although they sounded interesting initially, their successes with fusion were sporadic, their attempts at fusion didn’t reproduce the magic, it paled in comparison to what the 3 giants had created. Keep in mind that Rahman was still creating some fantastic fusion music in this period. Post 2010, new names like GV Prakash, Anirudh and a resurgent Imman, in a quest to achieve unparalleled success, started following the same fusion path by trying to blend Western sound with Indian sensibilities. While some of their attempts at fusion did sound catchy and superfun, most of them either lacked depth or were cluttered and distastefully done. When it comes to innovation, It was just one generic fusion song after the other. Plus these guys didn’t seem to possess mastery over Indian classical like the big 3 did. We also don’t have an Amit Trivedi to produce phenomenal fusion music and carry the legacy of the big 3. Therefore, since the music of all 3 in the big 3 has aged so well, nothing that today’s composers do is gonna sound fresh and innovative.
Unless, a Santhosh Narayanan comes into the scene and starts to drift towards pure western genre pieces, one song after the other. He starts moving away from the ‘fusion’ group of composers and creates his own sound, which are essentially nothing but a collection of western genres like Jazz, funk and hip hop. He sticks to those genres and resists Indianising them, both in melody and arrangement. Therefore, the answer to your question is that I don’t think pure genre pieces are essentially better in an absolute sense. In today’s context, it’s fresher than the clutter masquerading as fusion we get to hear. Also pure genre pieces are innovative (again, in Tamil cine music context) since even the big 3 haven’t explored these sounds in their pure forms so much. It will be useful here to note how Rahman’s Thalli pogadhey, a non-Indianised Trap-R&B mix, sounds so fresh compared to his recent attempts at fusion.
It also helped immensely that someone like Santhosh met a bunch of singular filmmakers who wanted to do new things with both content and form, which brings me to your second point.
But today, songs can take the place of BGM in creating “mood.” ”
Since some of the new filmmakers today consider songs as speedbreakers, the pure-genre ‘sound’ started tremendously complementing their films. Since nowadays most songs are not lip-synced or expected to provide commentary on the proceedings, a composer can totally do away with the traditional Indian song structure, and in some cases, even with the lyrics. This enables composers like Santhosh create something that has very less or zero Indian elements in terms of music, and still use it in a Tamil film without alienating the audience because the music is aided by a western form of storytelling, with the requirement of Indian must-haves slowly diminishing.
LikeLike
Aadhy
August 12, 2017
Adding to my previous comment, while talking about moving towards pure genre pieces, I would also obviously include Indian styles like Gaana, Themmangu, and other Indian folk stuff, something rooted, on the lines of sountracks of Thaara thappatai, Paruthiveeran, Gana songs from Attakathi. The contribution of such raw music to these movies is tremendous. In other words, moving away from the constraint that a song should please all sections of society, a dangerous idea that leads to bad fusion. And instead just serving the movie, thus making every aspect of a movie contribute to one whole piece. I’m all for prog music on the lines of what Madan mentioned (innovative western-Indian blend), but that requires someone a profound understanding of both the worlds and an original creative vision. Else we’d get a severe Rahman-Raja hangover, a ‘heard that before’ feeling, as we get with most of the songs today. As of now, we have better prog/fusion attempts in the independent music scene than in film music.
LikeLike
Madan
August 12, 2017
” the new composition also being innovative despite being derivative of an old style. ” – Fair enough. So on the same lines as what I said about jazz, I would not call a song as ‘exploring melody’ just because it is based on raga structure. I am interested in what is fresh in that song. There were plenty of ‘raga based’ songs in the 90s in HFM that I wouldn’t touch with a bargepole.
“And really nice of you to have listened to the songs as well” – Not at all, thank YOU for sharing. I am always interested in something new and hopefully different. And yeah, metalheads are the worst. 😉
LikeLike
Madan
August 12, 2017
@ Aadhy: Yeah, broadly agree with that overview of how we got from MSV to SN. I’d say we had three phases of ‘fusion’ in TFM. The MSV phase was more like contemporaneous Hindi music, largely Indian (Tamil) but with usually simple Western arrangements. In Hindi, only Salilda seemed to have the appetite for some complexity and he was imo the predecessor to IR. With IR, harmony got exponentially advanced and on all fronts , i.e., there were unusual chord progressions, independent basslines, multiple layers that were interlinked rather than same notes with different instruments as used to be the case earlier. The only thing IR left untouched was to retain an Indian tone to the music and from what he indicates in his interviews, he always saw it as appropriating Western elements within Indian music rather than as a combination (marriage) of the two.
Rahman gave it a Western sound for the first time (and this resulted in Indian phrases standing out in opposition to the Western, well, attitude if I could call it that). Also cleaned up on tones generally (what TMK described as a well rounded sound). With IR, I have to ask people who are completely unfamiliar with or dislike film music to ignore what they deem to be bad tones on say Idhu Oru Nila and look at the innovation instead. There would be no need to ask somebody to ignore something tacky sounding on a Rahman song because it’s very rare, if at all, that it sounds tacky in any way. It always has a polish.
So, yes, seen that way, the only logical step would be to move to a pure Western sound along with pure Indian formats when the situation calls for it. IR himself has done that to some extent on some songs in NEPV and Megha in particular (you have mentioned Thara Thappatai from the Indian perspective). What I would love for SN or any other of the young composers to do is to continue the harmonic experimentation within a Western format. Familiarising Tamil audiences with pure Western genres should only be a stepping stone to moving on to bigger and bolder things within a Western framework. Like, if the kind of chords used on Dhinnakudha were used in a more rock/funk based track, it would grab attention a lot more because we don’t expect such chord progressions in those settings. That would be prog rock heaven! 😉
LikeLike
Jyoti S Kumar
August 12, 2017
Speaking of rock in Indian settings- pls listen to Shiva and navarasam by thaikkudam bridge – pure bliss…
LikeLike
vijay
August 12, 2017
With regards to Jazz, I don’t think IR even scratched the surface in songs. And reg. TM Krishna and his viewpoints, we have to take carnatic singer’s opinions on fusion music with a huge sack of salt. Even the use of ragas in film music and such for that matter.
I think tamil film music is at its shittiest now. All you have to do is flip on one of the channels and you get one listless composition after another. Nobody has brought anything new to the table that has captured the imagination of mainstream audiences. I remember opining 20 yrs back that Rahman maybe the last megatrend. That’s how it has been playing out so far.
A lot of what passes for fusion these days is confusion. Santhosh Narayan has gotten quickly tiring with his gimmick of raw voices singing meandering tunes with Jazz layering. There is no wholesomeness to anybody’s music.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
August 13, 2017
“With regards to Jazz, I don’t think IR even scratched the surface in songs” – Nor has anybody else in our film music thus far. It’s harder because advanced stuff in jazz quickly heads into non melodic territory (I mean non melodic strictly from an Indian music perspective). Whereas there’s plenty of classical music up to the 19th century that’s still very melodic with all its complexity and more easily adapted to Indian music requirements. Same with classic rock/pop. Cry Me A River is less melodic than say an average Beatles or ABBA track. I remember watching Russell Malone play a beautiful set at NCPA and the posh South Mumbai audience was left cold until…well, he did a little funk bit as a parting gift. I think hardcore jazz would be a bridge too far but maybe the audience can be gradually introduced to these concepts via simpler stuff like Dhinakkudha.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Aadhy
August 14, 2017
“. What I would love for SN or any other of the young composers to do is to continue the harmonic experimentation within a Western format. Familiarising Tamil audiences with pure Western genres should only be a stepping stone to moving on to bigger and bolder things within a Western framework”
Absolutely. What we hear now mostly are gimmicks attempting to sound innovative. I also wish for such a prog rock movement, though we do have such bands in the independent scene (Motherjane, Parvaaz). On Other hand there are also bands like Agam which considers itself prog rock but all it does is take a Carnatic song like Bantureethi kolu and add some distorted guitars to it. If that’s what we are gonna get in Tamil film music as a prog movement, then I prefer to stick to genre pieces. Also in TFM, the technology I feel has brought down the level of musicianship by some notches, though it has certainly improved the song as a product of sound. Composers use a lot of loops and preprogrammed patches and we can hear such patches in a lot of today’s songs. Btw, I must confess Idhu oru Nila’s fusion between old school funk and Carnatic is my most favorite IR fusion song, if not my most favorite IR song ever. The lack of ‘finish’ in this song actually bolsters the (already mind-blowing) drumming and bassline. I think generally the lack of finish in IR’s songs became an issue only when he moved towards a heavily synth-dominated sound (don’t know the exact time, post 90s maybe?). That’s probably a sound that Rahman knew inside out and used it to his best advantage. You would have seen a early 90s video of Rahman composing a song, doing rounds in SM, where he uses a Roland multi-track recorder (quite advanced for that period). I also read somewhere that he was the first to use MIDI in Tamil film music. Also he programmed most of his songs in his initial days, ensuring a first hand control on the output.
Jyoti S Kumar : “Shiva and navarasam by thaikkudam bridge ”
I like both the songs, Navrasam a tad better because of its intense metal riffs and an outstanding video. But not a big fan of Thaikkudam bridge in general. I find their sound a bit too cluttered because of the sheer number of band members, and also heavily derived from older alt rock bands like Avial, which btw is my most favorite Indian independent band.
LikeLike
Madan
August 14, 2017
“The lack of ‘finish’ in this song actually bolsters the (already mind-blowing) drumming and bassline.” – Agree strongly. I think without the rawness, the song wouldn’t kick major ass the way it does. If anything, I think the more he moved towards polishing the sound via drum machines and eventually replacing orchestral instruments with synth tones, the more it diluted the soul element in his music. I wrote about it in more detail with exhibits here.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Arjun
August 15, 2017
@Madan: How well expressed. I like how you make the point both in these comments and the blog that paradoxically/ironically, while IR is often criticized for not paying more attention to pitch perfection and clean recording, it is the search for the perfect well rounded sound that perhaps in a large part contributed to trends that have led to where film music is today. Curiously enough TMK, while identifying very astutely and precisely the shortcomings and strengths of each era, is unable or unwilling to recognize this inherent internal conflict. So while Rahman can rightfully lay claim to being a pioneer in well rounded sounds, it is not obvious that it has had an entirely salutary effect on film music.
The example of Nenjathail Killadhey is apt too. That and Eeravizhi Kaaviyangal have the rawest sounds – piss poor recording, echoes, white noise, guitar screeches, you name it. But man, I can’t think of more dreamy ethereal music than what is contained in those albums. The songs and even the BGMs instantly evoke the imagery of a romantic getaway on a misty mountain top. But imagine”paruvame” with drum machines instead of Jeycha’s thigh tapping, or “En gaanam” without IR’s voice and the irregular arpegio fades.It just wouldn’t have the same soul. IR circa 79-84 is just a different beast altogether.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Madan
August 15, 2017
“The songs and even the BGMs instantly evoke the imagery of a romantic getaway on a misty mountain top.” – Nice LZ reference there whether or not intended. Johnny is another soundtrack which evokes lush, beautiful landscapes, especially the out of the world interludes of En Vaanile. Not that IR’s music stopped being evocative later on but by and by, the ‘natural beauty’ of the late 70s/early 80s recordings was diminished.
“So while Rahman can rightfully lay claim to being a pioneer in well rounded sounds, it is not obvious that it has had an entirely salutary effect on film music.” – Indeed and this should be debated more. We have too easily and uncritically accepted that it was ‘good’ for our music. It’s not at all clear that that is the case. Steven Wilson has been intentionally leaving mistakes on his last few albums in an attempt to capture the ‘life’ of the 70s recordings. It’s not about ‘blaming’ Rahman or any other composer but just understanding the full import of these changes. It’s come to the point where when Bieber lip syncs in a concert where he’s charged top dollar, the excuse trotted out is the pressure to sing every note perfectly is too much. But discerning listeners never have that expectation, at least of good singers. As long as there is overall technical proficiency, the expression, emotions being conveyed are more important. To relate to TMK’s point about mistakes even by IR’s lead singers on his recordings, what is more important is the variety of emotions and the unfailing warmth conveyed by the singers on the recordings. It is not very hard for a professional singer to sing correctly pitch wise, especially if technology exists to correct each wrong note. What cannot be taught is the way SPB or S Janaki transported listeners with their renditions. Nobody needed a certificate that SPB or SJ aren’t pitchy so nobody cared about the little slip ups here and there.
LikeLiked by 1 person
sravishanker1401gmailcom
August 15, 2017
I saw a speech by TMK on youtube few years back at an Industry Association conference (yes yes I know Unbelievable) and he was talking about entrepreneurship and Carnatic music and at the end he took off his shoes and said ” And now due to my “conditioned” response I’m taking off my shoes before I sing.”
I thought – ONLY a The School KFI student would use that phrase “conditioned response” :):)
://thezolazone.wordpress.com/2017/08/14/cartoon-class-announcement/
LikeLike
Ravi K
August 16, 2017
Was IR’s synth-predominant shift in the 90s really part of some desire to attain technical perfection? Or was it perhaps due to wanting to go with the trend, and possibly out of budgetary issues as well.
“So while Rahman can rightfully lay claim to being a pioneer in well rounded sounds, it is not obvious that it has had an entirely salutary effect on film music.”
The good is that he expanded the possibilities of how sound and instrumentation is used in Indian film music. The bad is that there can be an overly fussed-over, inorganic quality to his music sometimes.
A huge pet peeve of mine is his choice of singers, which is often unremarkable. Overall, I prefer strong, rousing voices like SPB, that work especially well with the big heroes, whose images demand something like that. The new batch of singers are mostly pretty skilled, but they just don’t have that brass-throated quality I prefer. And I also dislike his use of North Indian singers who make mincemeat of the Tamil language. It’s the scourge of South Indian film music.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
August 16, 2017
“Was IR’s synth-predominant shift in the 90s really part of some desire to attain technical perfection? Or was it perhaps due to wanting to go with the trend, and possibly out of budgetary issues as well.” – I think AFTER 93 or so, it may have been more due to budgetary constraints but even up to that period, there are songs where he has used his usual string section but added to that also synths. If you take a song like Potthathellam Vetri for instance, it was during the period when he was still no.1 and for a top star (Vijaykanth) but that song is very synth driven. Since he told Bhaskar Chandravarkar in a late 80s interview that he was using drum machines because getting the exact part he wanted out of the drummer took too much time, I am extrapolating that there may have been a similar motivation in using more and more synths through the late 80s and 90s.
LikeLiked by 1 person
brangan
August 16, 2017
Madan: This is not about autotune or a few singers occasionally going off-key. In fact, none of the major singers who sang for Raja (KJY, SPB, SJ, P Sushila, Chitra) ever went off-key, even if one might argue with other things about these singers.
Still, it is not surprising at all that TMK would raise this issue, because one of the most basic things one learns in a classical music system is sruthi suddham/ being in sur. And TMK is talking about Raja’s chorus singers being “abaswaram,” which is an undeniable fact. Now, one may be able to overlook this aspect, but it is a problem if you care about sruthi. Listen to the chorus that begins Adukkumalli or sings the harmonic part in Kaalidasan. The singers are bad. Raja got a very good set of chorus singers in the mid 90s (I may be a bit off with the timeline), but the 80s ones were definitely a problem.
On a tangent, off-key singing can be defended “expressionistically” at times. For instance, one can point to Dharisanam kidaikadha as the fervour of an adolescent and the “off-key-ness” is very much in sync with the mental state. It’s harder to overlook chorus off-key-ness because these are musical parts specifically created. At least, that’s how I see it.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Madan
August 17, 2017
@brangan: TMK also said that sometimes even the lead singers are off key in IR’s songs and I was talking about (I agree that his chorus singers can be problematic per se). If he meant Jency, he would have probably questioned IR’s singer selection at times rather than make a generalised comment about his lead singers. So what I THINK he is referring to is that even when a singer is as such in key, sometimes the way the voice travels from one note to another may not be perfect (as compared to say playing those notes on a piano). Could be the breath, could be the vibrato, whatever and a poor recording can amplify these imperfections. For instance, if you take Ninnu Kori Varnam, when Chitra sings Vaadipona Karanam, it sounds as if she’s drifted slightly off (though the landing is still bang on). I am sure in a ‘clean’ recording, there wouldn’t even be that issue but if you are really nitpicky, you can pick a fair few instances of these on IR’s tracks, more so the female singers because the high frequency magnifies even the slightest ‘blemishes’.
“It’s harder to overlook chorus off-key-ness because these are musical parts specifically created. ” – As such I agree with this differentiation but then even some of the musical parts performed by instruments are sloppy on IR tracks, especially brass instruments (which are the hardest to control). I am saying those inadvertent imperfections gave it the flavour of a live performance. In a live performance, every note is not going to be absolutely dead on and often for no fault of the musicians (issues with sound system, monitors, etc). When you clean up everything to achieve a perfect sound, it makes it less organic as RaviK said. So I can live with these things and even the poor chorus singers if the alternative is recordings that are too polished.
LikeLiked by 1 person
brangan
August 17, 2017
Madan: So I can live with these things…
Exactly. The “I” is a major qualifier in these things 🙂 For me, pitch is important. I can live with the not-so-great recording of the instruments (and I agree completely that this gives a fantastic, “live” quality to the songs; it’s like being in the 70s/80s) — but even in my live music, I like singers to be on key.
I am personally not a fan of the too-cleaned-up sound of the post-Rahman era. But when choruses etc are involved (eg Raasathi), I like the effort to make each melodic line distinct and, yes, pitch-perfect.
LikeLiked by 2 people
sravishanker1401gmailcom
August 17, 2017
Arjun : “IR circa 79-84 is just a different beast altogether”
Excellent !
True…… many of his interludes evoked a sense of lushness (is this correct english ?) and ethereal beauty.
Especially Johnny.
Brings back memories of rainy days in Old Madras where all you wanted to do was sit at home or eat the parotha at the hotel adjacent to Devi Theatre 70 MM A/C (not account).
Is it fair to also say that this was his best Western Classical period ever ?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
August 17, 2017
“Is it fair to also say that this was his best Western Classical period ever ?” – IMO that started with O Priya where he began to get away from baroque. Went all the way with it on Dhalapathi. Has been sporadic since with fewer opportunities (Nalam Vaazha also comes to mind) but Guru (Malayalam), Hey Ram, NEPV, Megha come to mind among other films.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
August 17, 2017
“but even in my live music, I like singers to be on key.” – As do I. But I make a distinction between a rendition with generally OTT singing (a la Atif or Ayushmann Khurana) and a generally on the mark rendition with a few mistakes. The latter I can abide by, though I do respect that everybody draws the line at a different place. Also, from recording performances on say a phone and comparing them to what I actually heard, I have seen how much a bad recording can distort the quality of vocal delivery so I take a more lenient view when it comes to singers.
LikeLike
Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 17, 2017
A big shout out to all the Johnny fans out there!
Arjun: The songs and even the BGMs instantly evoke the imagery of a romantic getaway on a misty mountain top.
Actually, I wonder whether Raja was asked to compose the tunes after the songs were shot!
A while ago when BR wrote a post on Mouna Raagam, I had commented that MR’s music appealed far more to me than NK. And then, I listened to “Uravenum Puthiya Raagam”. Of course, I’m not making any comparison now, but UPR is such a haunting number. Recently, discovered Eera Vizhi Kaaviyangal:
LikeLiked by 2 people
sravishanker1401gmailcom
August 17, 2017
Further posts on Ilayaraja in an unrelated thread are banned effective immediately.
(By Order of the Prefect of Police – LOL)
LikeLiked by 1 person
sravishanker1401gmailcom
August 17, 2017
(Casablanca Act IV Scene III)
LikeLike
Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 17, 2017
Talking about ‘clean recording’, “Dhak Dhak Karane Laga” trumps the original (“Abbanee Teeyani Debba”) by miles. The films were just two years apart.
LikeLike
Madan
August 17, 2017
@ Honest Raj: NK v/s MR is an interesting comparison. I also prefer MR but the songs on NK are more interesting, especially Uravenum. Lots of jagged edges compared to anything on MR. I am not overwhelmed by the melodies on NK and by MR, IR had evolved a lot in terms of composing tunes. But the arrangements on NK are more daring imo.
LikeLike
Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 18, 2017
Madan: Between NK and MR, IR must have probably done 250 films. Nevertheless NK had an “interesting” soundtrack, as you say.
LikeLike
Arjun
August 18, 2017
“am not overwhelmed by the melodies on NK and by MR, IR had evolved a lot in terms of composing tunes”
Not sure about that. IR had already peaked in tune creation by 79-80. “Kadhal Oviyam” had the most exquisite classical melodies and was in the same year as Nenjathail killadhe (1980). In fact that may be my favorite classical album. Kaatril endhan geetham (Johnny) and dhoorathil naan kanda un mugam (NIzhalgal) were also in the same year, not a tad inferior in their melodic content to “chinna chinna vanna kuyil” say.
I think the evolution from 1980 (NK) to MR (1986) was in terms of the density of ideas. Like for eg. comparing Uravenum pudhiya vaanil and mandram vandha thendral, both are essentially chord based songs with a strong western element, both have the trademark twists and surprises at each turn. But uravenum has twists within twists and is like a wild roller coaster ride where you literally have no idea what’s coming next- cue the dazzling interplay of instruments in the first interlude, each taking the lead by turn with the bass steadily growing in the background. It is also a more free flowing song without being meandering. There is suspense at the beginning of the 2nd interlude which segues into carefree whistling and the tension is resolved smoothly towards the end of the lude. Whereas by the time of Mandram vandha and songs from the late 80s onwards he appears to avoid these complex tension creation/resolution setpieces in the ludes.
Btw, I also think Viji Manuel’s keyboard playing must be credited for creating the haunting, misty atmosphere of these songs like Uravenum.
LikeLike
Madan
August 18, 2017
@ Arjun: While I love all the early 80s songs you mentioned, I would still say the melodic innovation evolved further down in his career. Stuff like Athikalai neram kanavil, Kangallukul Unnai Ezhuthu, Ithazhil Kathai Ezhuthum, even Nil Nil Nil in the mid 90s! Maybe toning down the harmonic drama was intended to facilitate such melodic experimentation. So…in that vein, I would say Mandram Vandha still does have conflict and resolution but in a far more subtle and minimalist style where Uravenum is fiery.
Yes, the way he uses a stronger accent on the last note of each bar in that part he plays in the first interlude…very subtle touch but important in creating the tension.
LikeLike
Arjun
August 19, 2017
@Madan: I think I understand the point you’re trying to make. While I certainly think Raja was already a consummate tunesmith at the turn of the 80s, it is only from the mid-late 80s onwards that he really started to experiment with more advanced stuff like graha bhedams and further more uncommmon raga transpositions. The examples you cited – adhkaalai neram, kangalukkul enna, nil nil all share this aspect,so I think this is what you’re getting at (correct me if I’m wrong). Another example from the period is kavidhai kelungal. And a song like idhazhil is in a relatively rarer raga (lalita) and also has somewhat more complex phraseology than a lot of his early 80s classical ventures. So you’re probably right that this melodic exploration necessitated some mellowing down on the harmonic side of things. But purely on the merit of the melodies, I think he was alreay at the top of his game by 78-79.
Also on the subject, another point on which I disagree with TMK is on the reason why he is not a fan of identifying ragas of film songs which is that it prevents us from appreciating the layering within the song. I am not sure why he thinks it is an either or thing. While it certainly may be so for those not well acquainted with either system, the more discerning listeners are quite capable of appreciating both the shades of the ragas and orchestration, bass etc..
LikeLike
brangan
August 19, 2017
Arjun: But purely on the merit of the melodies, I think he was already at the top of his game by 78-79.
Actually, Raja’s melody-making is very underrated because he came after a genius tunesmith like MSV, whose method of “pure” melody-making got entrenched in people’s minds as the ONLY way of making melodies. So when Raja made melodies around his orchestration — not that MSV did not do this, but Raja’s was at a more complex level — people who follow “just the tune” (i.e. just the part that can be hummed) come to think that it’s lesser. While the real way to look at Raja’s melody-making is to see how the tune (i.e. the humming part) locks in with the instruments and produces something greater than the sum of its parts.
But that said, Raja’s “pure” tune-making was solid right from the very beginning. His “Sirithaal sirithen, aval oru rajakumari” (77/78) is a golden Kharaharapriya, with lovely sangatis. (And TMS is fantastic here.) Even in the “lighter” tunes, he hit it out out of the park with songs like “Vaa ponmayile” and “Nadhiyoram naanal ondru” and “Geetham sangeetham”… All of these can be “hummed” as “pure” tunes, and you still get a song that spans an octave (or more, in the case of Nadhiyoram). Even without any instrumental backing, the tunes are beyond-gorgeous.
LikeLike
Arjun
August 19, 2017
“While the real way to look at Raja’s melody-making is to see how the tune (i.e. the humming part) locks in with the instruments and produces something greater than the sum of its parts.”
That’s an excellent way of putting it. The human voice is often just another “voice” in his creations, albeit the lead one, and following the other voices (instruments) is key to enjoying the song in its entirety. Sirithal sirithen is a nice example to demonstrate his melody making abilities even very early on. Couple of other examples – kannan oru kai kuzhandhai, vizhiyile malarndhadhu.
LikeLike
Madan Mohan
August 19, 2017
“The examples you cited – adhkaalai neram, kangalukkul enna, nil nil all share this aspect,so I think this is what you’re getting at (correct me if I’m wrong).” – Yeah, I am not saying his melodies were lacking in the early years, just that it evolved into more interesting directions further down in his career. As a tune, an Uravenum is nice but not particularly fascinating, especially the charanam. But taken together with the arrangements, it’s brilliant. In Mouna Ragam, the tunes as well as the arrangements were great. I would say the charanams more so than the pallavis were very strong in all Mouna Ragam tracks except maybe Oho Meham Vandadho, which was still ‘good’, just not particularly great.
LikeLike
Shankar
August 20, 2017
Baddy, you put it perfectly. It’s the sum of parts when it comes to Raja. And I agree his tune-smithing is very under rated. He has always been a terrific tune maker, with his earlier production being particularly unpredictable in its composition. I get the density of ideas theory when it comes to his latter work, but his compositions and tunes in the beginning have been both bold and inventive, for that time.
I also get the theory about the chorus singers which is why sometimes he has used SJ and others for choruses too. It’s a mixed bag….you have Edho Mogum and likes on one side that demanded perfection from the choruses while other songs had off key sections. But it’s undeniable how he used them akin to instruments in his songs and was a trendsetter in that regard.
LikeLike