Spoilers ahead…
Based on the trailer of Shashanka Ghosh’s Veere Di Wedding, I was afraid it was going to be two hours of women saying “fuck.” I’m happy to report that’s not the case. They also say “chooth,” “maa ki aankh” and “john.” The latter, in case you were wondering, refers not to one of Christ’s apostles but to what urbandictionary.com calls, rather charmingly, “a dick large enough to wreck Godzilla’s vagina.” This film, in other words, is less about The Last Supper than The Lasting Shtupper. Let’s begin with the man (Edward Sonnenblick) who owns that john. In a stunningly imaginative feat of screenwriting, he’s named… John, and he’s married to Meera (the warm and very likeable Shikha Talsania). Her family hasn’t accepted their marriage, and so he’s seen in bed, in whichever foreign country they’re in, poring over a Hindi dictionary. That’s how Meera knows the Hindi word for orgasm: charam sukh. Going by the reaction of some viewers around me, this revelation clearly hit the G-spot.
Veere Di Wedding tells three more stories, about three of Meera’s friends. Swara Bhaskar is saddled with the worst track. She plays Sakshi, whose reason for splitting up with her husband is a lot of fuss about nothing: a storm in a D-cup. Sonam Kapoor overacts hysterically as Avni, a divorce lawyer who cannot land a man. A few decades ago, Arth showed us that a woman was not defined by marriage. If the Shabana Azmi character’s journey was a nineteenth-century novel, Avni’s is an International Women’s Day tweet. But Vishwas Kini, as an amiable dolt named Bhandari who pursues her, infuses some fun into the proceedings. Avni, at first, nurses morning-after regret when she wakes up beside him. But Bhandari just flashes a goofy grin. She may keep saying “no,” but he remembers what she said a few hours earlier: “yes, yes, oh God, yes!”
Kareena Kapoor Khan — who looks fantastic – plays Kalindi, the fourth of these unapologetically rich girls. The film could have been called Cheques and the City: an average-looking guy is laughed off as “below poverty line.” It feels crass. In this world, it also feels true. Kalindi’s track – her impending marriage to Rishabh (Sumeet Vyas) – is the longest, the one with the most girth. Kareena is encouraged to mug broadly — her horrified reactions to traditions around the wedding have you wondering if she’s never been to India or grown up in an Indian family, but Kalindi and Rishabh are a couple you root for. They are palpably together. The romcom parts of their relationship are the best parts of Veere Di Wedding — though the only aspect of the film that makes you slap your head and exclaim, “Genius!” is the casting of Neena Gupta, who scandalised the nation by having a child out of wedlock, as a marriage-obsessed mother.
Veere Di Wedding, written by Nidhi Mehra and Mehul Suri, is a lazy film, too content with easy zingers. Issues are raised and resolved in so little time, it looks like a new scripting technique: premature elucidation. But whenever the film doesn’t try too hard to show you how hip it is, it’s not entirely unlikeable. Yes, something like Parched is a far better example of female bonding (with gloriously colourful language), but it was seen by some 25 people. It’s important, even through an imperfect film like this one, to speak about women’s issues to a large audience: that it’s okay to masturbate (or even for a woman to desire sex), that there’s nothing to be ashamed of if you’re on the heavier side and find yourself in a swimsuit, that marriage isn’t everything, that having drinks in a bar doesn’t make you “easy.” As plastic as it is, Veere Di Wedding does for heterosexual women what Dostana did for gay men. It makes it safe for bedroom topics to be discussed in the drawing room.
Copyright ©2018 Baradwaj Rangan. This article may not be reproduced in its entirety without permission. A link to this URL, instead, would be appreciated.
MANK
June 3, 2018
it looks like a new scripting technique: premature elucidation
boooom. that one hit the spot 🙂
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sanjana
June 3, 2018
‘ but it was seen by some 25 people.’
That sums up the fate of arty art films.
The review is kind and hilarious.
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Srinivas R
June 3, 2018
Now I’m wondering what is the Tamil word for Orgasm?
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brangan
June 3, 2018
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the/tamil-word-for-a9c241cebb7caaa1bf1eb1d1f77aca7b3f1079c8.html
https://www.shabdkosh.com/ta/translate/புணரின்பம்/புணரின்பம்-meaning-in-Tamil-English
Though the words you find in Tamil film lyrics are far more entertaining — kattil sugam, methai sugam, uchakattam etc. 😀
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Ann Rajkumari Jodhaa
June 3, 2018
Muchas gracias.
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sahiravik
June 3, 2018
Small review because you didn’t want to put more effort in to write a longer piece than the filmmakers did to make this film? Understandable!
For me, the film was intermittently funny, but was also riddled with so many problems. First off (and perhaps least importantly), the women were often prey to some very unfortunate styling (especially Swara!). Next, the background music and songs were far too in-your-face; silences and subtle moments, we had none of. Third, incessant product placements got on my nerves. My friends (veeres?) and I counted Amul, Uber, Tata, Range Rover, some flower place, HDFC/HSBC banks, Visa card! What is this!!! And what does one say of the conversation? How does one talk about a film about FOUR WOMEN that basically flunks the Bechdel test? Do women talk about NOTHING but sex and men and marriage and sex and marriage and men and men? (Rhetorical question.) These women never do.
Meera hasn’t had sex for a year, but then this piece of information is never revisited. And why does every plump woman need to have body issues? (“Main bhains bun rahee hoon.”)
And Sonam Kapoor is SO bad. I thought that after Neerja and Pad Man, my opinions about her was going to gradually alter. But no! Veere puts her right back into Khubsoorat/Dolly/Aisha/Delhi6 territory.
Swara was expectedly great; I’m very glad that masturbation scene was left in (I think “apna haath Jagannath” was the highlight of the film for me). And Shikha is also lovely, I liked her very much. I didn’t mind Kareena either. She had good chemistry with Sumeet Vyas.
Fun, yes. Problematic, YES.
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Dr. Grossip
June 3, 2018
@Sahiravik: . And why does every plump woman need to have body issues? (“Main bhains bun rahee hoon.”)
Thanks for that. Yes, this is my concern too. Just as why is it assumed that if you are a certain age and single, you are dissatisfied with your choices. Or that if you have acne even as an adult, you must surely have self-esteem issues. Over-generalization at its worst, I think, esp when the story telling is so underwhelming. I honestly crave the genius of the 80s filmmakers like Subash Ghai and Rajiv Rai. They made such emotionally charged, satisfying films that also made loads of money 🙂
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Anu Warrier
June 3, 2018
Sahrivik’s issue with the film was mine as well. It’s okay it’s not a ‘feminist’ film; I’m not looking for women empowerment in every film I watch. But for heavens’ sake, Zindagi Na Milegi Dobara – which Sonam and Kareena brought up at every promotion gig had more conversation about the men and their friendship and very little about women per se. I mean, they are there, but every conversation the dudes had didn’t revolve around them!
What irked me (apart from what S said) was also that Avni is the only one shown to have a career – yet, what does she do when she’s filing suit for a client’s alimony? Berate her for not having worked yet demanding alimony. Does this woman (or the scriptwriters who were both women, I think?) even know how alimony works?!
Shikha and Swara were easily the best of the lot – I was just watching a short film which starred Shikha, and sweet baby Jesus, what a fine actress she is!
I’m okay with plump women having body issues, or single women who desperately want to get married – they are out there. What bothered me is what you, BR, called the ‘laziness’ of the writing.
It’s a shame – because to see a film toplined by four actresses is unique in and of itself. Hopefully, it will become a success, not because it deserves to be one but because that will prompt more stories such as these (also, hopefully, better-written ones).
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KV
June 3, 2018
Hi Baradwaj ,
Awesome review and once again I’m reminded of someone who takes on the pain of reviewing such films so that we are spared to have to watch it ourselves.
Having said that , has there ever been an instance where someone in one of the bad films you have reviewed and roasted , reached out to you to acknolwedge the roast ?
Something like “Hey BR, Glad you are in a position to call a spade a spade and kudos on saying what I couldn’t dare mention”
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hattorihanzo4784
June 3, 2018
Br
How do you feel like when watching this mundane pretentious cinema after the pleasure of viewing Avant Garde cinema at Cannes, every year?
I believe the critics from the other major cinema producing countries like USA, south Korea, China, UK etc… have a much easier time adjusting back to local cinema after the Cannes event…?
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Indira
June 3, 2018
Me too….based on the trailer I was afraid the film was going to be about a bunch of women saying “fuck” for two hours. As a girl myself , I wonder why films based on girls are ALWAYS always about sex talk , marriage and less about other stuff .
Why can’t there be a movie about girls doing NOTHING , like an all- girl- Seinfeld…….!! I know that’s asking for way too much . Probably only 25 people will watch it ……!
Watching Steel magnolias growing up , I wondered why there weren’t more of those in Indian cinema . Of course Bridemaids , Thelma and Louise are once-in a- decade kind of movies , which are great to watch .
Anyway , I was one of those 25 people who watched “Parched “ . BR I liked the ‘ Cheques and the city ‘ comment too …….. looks like you had the most fun writing this review . Who knew this day would come in Hindi cinema !!!
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Devarsi Ghosh
June 3, 2018
I was really disheartened and disappointed that the Hindi word for orgasm was the bland, uninspiring and basic AF “charam sukh”.
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rsylviana
June 3, 2018
Man,what a bummer it was. I was delighted to see so many girl gangs(including yours truly) in the theatre who had made a date night of sorts with this movie , only to be disappointed as hell . So many people started leaving the theatre even before the final wedding ceremony had begun.
As many others have mentioned above , what irked me majorly was that there was no mention of the girls’ careers except for Sonam’s. I can understand even Shikha and Swara’s absence of a career since one might have become a full time mom after her marriage and the other is a filthy rich brat who could’ve been living off of her husband/parents. But Kareena ?!! She moves to a foreign country after her mother has died, her family has become broken and she is literally left without a home – In such a case ,isn’t her job and friends the only things she could have fallen back on?!!! How come no mention of that in all of her whining about how much she thinks marriage sucks ?! Come to think of it, even Zindagi Na Milegi Dobara cared enough about Kalki Koechlin’s character to mention in passing that she was a ‘bloody good’ interior decorator. And she is basically one of the villains in that movie !!!
When I saw Kareena doodling , I thought ‘Ohh cool . So she is an artist of some sorts and all those paintings on her walls could be hers’ but then later her dad points to them and says they were her mothers’ and I was practically screaming ‘Oh come on!!!!’
Honestly, I didn’t expect them to make a movie about four feminists who cared deeply about women empowerment but I also didn’t expect them to portray ALL their female characters like a bunch of teenage girls who are just worried about their love lives,clothes and BMI. And oh the clothes!!! They . Were. Hideous. In some scenes ,Shikha and Swara seemed visibly uncomfortable wearing them.
All in all , I’m so happy that a movie toplined by four women only has released and that it has actually taken a grand opening but God, I hope that we see more of such lightweight films for/by/about women being made but with much superior writing and making!
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Aparna
June 4, 2018
Rangan, as much as I agree with your acting appraisals, I never agree with your assessments of physical beauty. I was startled at how the very pretty Sonam Kapoor managed to look even more beautiful, and you single out Kareena. Same as when I thought it was laughable that Aditi Rao Hydari would compliment Deepika Padukone’s beauty, but her unflattering unibrow and CGI get up seemed to work for you.
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Aparna
June 4, 2018
Oh to actually discuss the performances, I was surprised to find Kareena the weak link. Swara and Shikha were the expected highlights and even Sonam managed to make her neurotic headcase character endearing. I don’t think she’s been bad in a film post 2013, and I don’t quite get her nonactress reputation when plenty of top actresses (Katrina, Deepika) are worse off and receive less flack. It can’t be a looks thing because she’s more classically pretty than both.
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Apu
June 4, 2018
“honestly crave the genius of the 80s filmmakers like Subash Ghai and Rajiv Rai”
– Rajiv Rai? Honestly?
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Enigma
June 4, 2018
Bollytards seem to think that women uttering profanities, being openly promiscuous and going to bars as progress. This will not work in a country like India where are there millions of poor people- especially in the cities with heaps of migrant labourers, who have left their wives behind in the villages. Walking around like sluts is an open invitation for trouble. Being controlled by parents and well-wishers is better than being assaulted by desperate thugs. Before someone brings out the argument that men should change their attitude, be realistic- not going to happen in India. Better be safe than sorry.
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sanjana
June 4, 2018
Trying to find philosophical wisdom in popcorn?
This film is working but if they do it second time, it may not work.
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Sahir.
June 4, 2018
Enigma: I cannot believe you just wrote that and actually slut-shamed women who are in full control of their lives (or indeed anyone at all!). I’m not even going to respond further.
Aparna: Come on, have you watched Khoobsurat?! She was so bad in that! As for Deepika, you need only watch Piku and Tamasha to see what a good actress she’s become.
rsylviana: That’s another thing that bugged me! Why was only Soman given a career? Did the writers just think it’s unimportant? (Oh, but this isn’t a feminist movie, right? Right.)
Anu Warrier: Yeah, I was a little uncomfortable with that courtroom scene too. It was of course shoehorned in because Bollywood loves thunderous courtrooms, but isn’t alimony given to somebody who HAS no other income?! And considering Avni has three friends who don’t (appear to) work either, shouldn’t she be a little more considerate of other such women? 🙂
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Enigma
June 4, 2018
Sahir, not slut-shaming but advising people to be aware of their surroundings. I live in Sydney and here I see Indian girls wearing short clothes, western clothes, whatever. No problem at all cause everyone dresses that way and no one will give a second look. But imagine if a girl wears a short skirt in a Mumbai train, what would happen. Bollytards zoom around in Mercs, have bodyguards- they can do what they want. But young, highly impressionable middle class girls, see the nonsense dished out by these retards and start behaving like them. Not good at all.
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Bharathi Shevgoor
June 4, 2018
For me the most disappointing was Kareena herself. First of all, I did not find her looking ‘fantastic’. She looked like….Kareena. She looked charming in Chameli,. Her acting was thankfully not over the top. But so much screen time for her was unwarranted, I thought Sumeet Vyas as her male lead looked attractive.
Swara’s character needed more heft. It may have given the film depth. But here’s the thing. It seemed as if the makers were wary of introducing any depth into the movie and and were in a hurry to be droll.Her clothes were awful, whereas Kareena’s were simply classy.The contrast made it worse was for Swara. An interesting aspect was her body language, and no I’m not punning, thank you.. It was that of a very young person, not a teenager. If we weren’t told they were contemporaries I’d have thought her character was at least a decade younger in the movie.
Sonam’s makeup is getting worse. There were times I wanted to dunk her face into a tub of water and wash it off.
I agree with you fully with the Kareena bit – ‘have you wondering if she’s never been to India or grown up in an Indian family’.
The movie may be fluff, but somewhere some points are made and, as you so brutally pointed out, because it is a mainstream entertainer at least it’ll reach more people,not ahem, 25.
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sanjana
June 4, 2018
In the mainstream and art movies too, actresses dress up in short dresses and so this film is not different from them in that aspect. They dance to double meaning lyrics in mainstream movies and in the name of art, expose themselves to the bare minimum in art movies. The girls also watch hollywood movies and beauty contests. Some of them try to imitate or are comfortable in such dresses. In Mumbai locals I have seen girls in the shortest dresses. Not only Mumbai but in Indore, Delhi, Goa and other places also, it is not a big deal for girls to wear short dresses for the last 30 years or so.
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Madan
June 4, 2018
@Enigma Sounds like you haven’t been to Mumbai in a long time. Do not feel the need to elaborate.
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tejas
June 4, 2018
Slightly off-topic: does anyone else remember when was the last time a mainstream Hindi film featured major characters from religions other than Hinduism? I don’t watch a lot of new films so apologize for my ignorance in advance.
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rsylviana
June 4, 2018
@Bharathi Shevgoor – Exactly ! Maybe its because Kareena is a bigger star than the rest put together, or the fact that she is older than the rest of them, but Kareena stood out from the rest of the gang. The first skype call the three have together ,one which Kareena doesn’t join, actually confirmed my fears. And the rest of the movie didn’t make me go back on it as well .
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sachita
June 4, 2018
I found the trailer not quite relatable. Wondering, if the the wedding cold feet is more likely in an arranged marriage scenario in an Indian context.
I haven’t watched the movie. Hindi films constantly make unrealistic movies when they say these are about real life problems. As some one pointed out, major reason for stress for quite a few of us is work. But never a beep about that in this movie.
Something like oru naal koothu would be good – not asking for a remake of the movie. But when i watched the movie, I could see this happening to quite a few people’s lives.
Aparna: I think katrina and deepika are better looking than sonam for sure. you know beauty beholder and all that. But deepika is definitely a better actor than sonam.
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Kay
June 4, 2018
Wow! I didn’t know wearing clothes of one’s choice meant dressing up like a slut and inviting trouble. Maybe that’s why babies in diapers are getting raped, huh?
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Aran
June 4, 2018
Aparna: Probably, Katrina and Deepika’s box office success and their work with bigger (better?) filmmakers has something to do with the fact that they’re considered better actresses? I do agree that Sonam is more traditionally beautiful than them. But then, that’s just my opinion.
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Anu Warrier
June 4, 2018
Enigma – what everyone just said.
Indira – count me in among the 25 or so who watched Parched (which, too, I found problematic in a couple of places).
Sahir – yup. That was entirely my point. And you like Deepika as well. We’re practically soul siblings! 🙂
Aparna, I’m finding Swara’s new wardrobe (on-screen and off) horrible! I think you need to have a certain kind of attitude to carry off bad clothes – Swara doesn’t have that.
And no fair comparing Katrina and Deepika – the latter has evolved and improved in spades with every film. 🙂
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Feryal Niazi
June 5, 2018
Enigma: welcome to 2018…kindly place blame on perpetrators for sexual assaults. no one INVITES that. I can’t believe a grown adult could possess thinking like that…you my friend are very much part of the problem
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Enigma
June 5, 2018
Madan, I haven’t lived in India for over 15 years and have never been to Mumbai. Sad to learn that India is losing its culture and becoming a crap hole. A colleague of mine from Mumbai was here in Sydney on a project couple of years ago. Instead of wanting to visit the harbour bridge or the opera house, she was more keen on finding about the coolest bars and where to get weed. Anyway as I said earlier, showing off your cleavage, drinking in bars, loitering around at midnight is not being progressive. Not good in a country like India. Sad that Indian girls are heading in that direction. Apologies for the rant.
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Anu Warrier
June 5, 2018
Head to desk What ‘culture’? The ones where women didn’t wear blouses at all? Or the ones where they had breast bands? Or is it only deep-necked tops that have you in a snit? Women have breasts – deal with it.
I do like how ‘Indian culture’ is only used to beat women on their heads about what they should wear and where they should go, with whom, and why they shouldn’t drink. No one is saying that drinking and smoking are ‘progressive’ – what we are saying is that drinking and smoking and wearing deep-necked blouses or being out late at night (and how come this is never said to the guys?!) are never an invitation for sexual assault – no, they (we!) are not ‘asking for it’.
In other words, the Victorian era is calling you back.
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Enigma
June 5, 2018
Feryal Niazi, the perpetrators are to be blamed, definitely and deserve the strictest punishment. But we have to be careful
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Madan
June 5, 2018
@Enigma Your views on Indian culture are what they are but my only point was that it a woman wearing a short skirt got into a Mumbai local, nothing much would happen. What would happen? Maybe staring, catcalls from rowdies but I think Mumbai is reasonably good at minding its business.
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Kay
June 5, 2018
Anu – I was sorely tempted to reply along the lines of sticks and backsides but I think your reply is perfectly worded.
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Enigma
June 5, 2018
Any Warrier, I would have to disagree. Women are the traditional custodians of culture and it is their sacred duty to preserve it. Feminists and ‘progressive’ people will not agree but I don’t care. Parents, especially mothers , would have to teach children traditional values and about our culture. I was told stories from the Ramayana and Mahabharata by my mum and grandmother and I expect my wife to teach my kids. When these pub hopping, weed smoking, ‘modern’ young girls become mums, I shudder to think what they will teach their kids. When culture is lost, the civilisation gets destroyed.
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Madan
June 5, 2018
Enigma: Drinking and smoking weed were activities invented by men. If men are concerned about the loss of culture, maybe THEY can step up to preserve it….by themselves setting a good example for their children (note to others: I am NOT saying drinking is inherently bad, just extending the logic). Or do you mean that because men also invented management, they only delegate anything and everything to women?
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rsylviana
June 5, 2018
@Enigma – I was about to reply for your earlier comments. But seeing your last comment, you have made me realize that you are beyond help. So thanks for that!
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Enigma
June 5, 2018
Madan, I agree. Men have a duty too but it is mothers who spend greater time with children and shape their personalities and character. Therefore, they have a greater influence on their kids. I don’t smoke or drink but my father used to and he was an atheist. I am religious because of my mother. I personally feel that women have a greater role.
rsylviana, I know that I am right. You need not agree with me.
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Nikunj
June 5, 2018
Partially agree with Enigma!
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Sahir.
June 5, 2018
Tejas: Nobody replied to your question; off the top of my head – Raazi, Secret Superstar, Sultan, Bajrangi Bhaijaan, Raees had Muslims. I believe Brothers featured Christians, but not wholly sure because I missed it.
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Nikunj
June 5, 2018
The problem is not with girls wearing short clothes the problem is frustration of the average joe on the road which has reached unprecedented levels leading to a culture unsafe for anyone who offers release from the said frustration. This is why hate crimes are at their highest and crimes against women are a large part of such crimes.
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sanjana
June 5, 2018
As a parent one may opt for a conservative upbringing of kids. But one should also accept and respect other way of life as freedom of choice.
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Sana
June 5, 2018
So many stupid assumptions here.
I’m always very wary of Indian men who insist that it’s the duty of us women to cook three hot meals, rear children, perform innumerable elaborate pujas and preserve our chasitity because of culture and tradition. These are usually the very same men who are the first to call women gold diggers for wanting well-settled men. So I take it that since you are such a traditionalist you’re also willing to be the sole financial provider for your family and you would never expect your wife to contribute? That’s the flip side of assuming that it a woman’s ‘sacred duty’ is to be the pure, domestic goddess nurturer – it then becomes your ‘sacred duty’ to be the strong, chivalrous protector and provider. Or are you the typical hypocrite who is very happy to liberate yourself from the traditional roles that patriarchy places on men while insisting Desi women still stick to their traditional feminine role and happily bear the burdens placed on them in the name of culture? Just as the pressure ofproviding for a family of four people on his salary alone would place an unfair burden on a man, expecting a woman to repress all her desires, never go out after sunset/ wear a sexy dress/ hookup with an attractive guy and instead groom herself to fit some naive, hypocritical man’s ideal of a mother goddess places an unfair burden on her.
Believe it or not, just as modern women are able to succeed in male-dominated professions like engineering and investment banking, modern men are also capable of spending time with their children, taking care of them and passing on good values. I know plenty of men who are hands-on fathers and there is no shortage of men in the public sphere who take pride in nurturing their children, taking paternity leave, changing diapers et al either (just look at Mark Zuckerberg, for example).
Heck, even my 60 year old traditional Indian father was a hands-on parent and frankly most of the values I hold dear today (hard work, good education, honesty, empathy) were imbibed mostly from watching him lead by example. He spent time and effort raising me and cultivating a work ethic in me instead of selfishly assuming it was my mother’s job alone. He taught me about the Gita and even though he doesn’t drink, he has no problem with me drinking because he isn’t idiotic enough to think that only a teetotaller can be a good mother or a religious person!
I live in the US and my closest friends are a group of Desi women (both from India and born in the USA) in our early thirties. We met as 18 year old freshmen at college in NYC and most of us enjoyed being young single women in the big city. We partied, dated and went to dive bars and clubs in cocktail dresses before eventually settling down. Most of us are married to Indians, one is married to a Jewish man and we all share childcare with our partners. We all work long hours and some of our kids spend more time with the nanny than the mom. Most of us (yes, including women who occasionally smoke a harmless joint or have a glass of whiskey) send our children to Bharatnatyam or classical music lessons while a few are not traditional or religious and the values they prefer to teach their children are of gender and racial equality, respect for household help and environmental friendliness. Shockingly enough, all our children are well adjusted, loved, secure and happy and all of us do our best to ensure we are raising good human beings. No collapse of culture yet!
What collapse of civilisation are you talking about anyway? Sydney, the ‘debauched’ Western city that you ironically chose to live on over India, has one of the world’s most vibrant night lives where women (including today’s mother’s) have been partying and hooking up for generations. There are innumerable beaches where women wear bikinis or are topless. And yet, it’s no immoral hell hole and in fact Australia is far ahead of India on every social and economic indicator including those related to parenting and childcare – such as forced child marriages or low sex radios due to being aborted by their own parents, for example. What exactly is this culture that you idolise in India? Because our patriarchy has far more ills than benefits.
Phew – end of long rant! Sorry but this is a topic that hits very close to home!
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Anu Warrier
June 5, 2018
So we are the ‘sacred custodians’ of culture? Who made us so? Men? So they can behave with impunity while we are weighed down by our sacred responsibility to ensuring that men don’t behave badly? Going by your logic, the reason men eve-tease and sexually assault women is because their mothers didn’t teach them any better. (Also, what’s stopping you from telling your kids stories from the Ramayana and the Mahabharata? Why is it your wife’s responsibility?)
I should have known we women were at fault!
And what traditional values do you want us to teach our sons and daughters? (Or should we only be teaching these ‘traditional’ values to our daughters?) That women are chattel and should bow to the diktats of the men in their lives? That they should be fully covered from head to toe, lest they attract attention? (And sari-clad / burkha-clad women never ever get raped! Only girls in short skirts and low tops do. Of course.) That they should never be ‘loitering’ at night in case they get assaulted?
You know, someone on my blog offered me a spare helmet. I really think I need it to prevent QWERTY being permanently imprinted on my forehead.
@Kay – thanks. But I think this is a gone case.
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Madan
June 5, 2018
@Enigma: So if women have a greater role in the nurturing of children, how is it that back in the golden days of culture when women were ‘safely’ confined to the four walls of the household, there still were drunkards and drug addicts? I think each couple may worry about how they wish to raise their children. The forces that drive societal change are beyond our control and if covering up women is supposed to be a proxy for morality, then the Gulf doesn’t make a great case for it.
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Sana
June 5, 2018
I just realised that you claimed that women can wear what they want in Sydney because Australi permits women the freedom and safety to dress how they please but that women will be ‘assaulted by thugs’ if they so much as step out in a skirt in Mumbai! And right after that you said that fully grown, adult Indian women need to be ‘controlled’ by their parents (such a telling word!) because otherwise Indian culture will be lost and civilisation will be destroyed.
I’m confused now! I disageee that a woman can’t wear a skirt in Mumbai but following your train of thought: isn’t the very definition of civilisation (as proffered by a famous Indian man) one where women can walk without fear? Hasn’t Indian culture already collapsed if you think a woman can’t even board a train in the most cosmopolitan Indian city in a skirt without being assaulted or raped? And aren’t Australian mothers (many of whom drink and identify as atheists) doing something right when they raise their sons if they are able to create a far safer atmosphere for women to live freely in (according to you) and don’t need to ‘control’ their daughter and act like the Taliban every time she wants to wear a skirt or stay out past sunset?
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Anu Warrier
June 5, 2018
Sana, you’re looking for logic? Here, have my spare helmet.
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MANK
June 5, 2018
I’m finding Swara’s new wardrobe (on-screen and off) horrible! I think you need to have a certain kind of attitude to carry off bad clothes – Swara doesn’t have that.
Yes Anu, i wished someone other than me would say it . its really sad to see her being put through this.you can clearly see how uncomfortable she is. i have a suspicion she is being forced to do this, because she is considered an arty actress , this seems to be an image makeover thing for VDW and more commercial projects.Perhaps either or both of the Kapoors, Ekta or Sonam is behind this. the pressures being put on women – especially the ones who do not fit into a certain body type or certain image – in the industry to look hip is tremendous and seems to be taking a toll on her. i think it has taken a toll on someone like Parineethi already
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Madan
June 5, 2018
@Sana Great comments and I couldn’t agree more with the sentiment. Just want to add that there’s nothing like Indian parents must send their children to classical music or dance classes. I have never taken Carnatic lessons though Carnatic music was never far away in a Tambram household. I haven’t ever read the Gita from start to finish. But I live in India and after plenty of exposure to Western music, my favourite composer and favourite singer are Ilayaraja and Rafi respectively. I don’t know if that makes me Indian enough especially in the Bhakt era but I must say I find it amusing how the person with an enigmatic username holds rather sanctimonious views about Indian culture whilst safely sheltered in Sydney.
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Anu Warrier
June 5, 2018
Feminists and ‘progressive’ people will not agree
Didn’t see this zinger. Sure. This progressive feminist doesn’t agree that we are – or should be – the gatekeepers of a culture imposed on us by patriarchy.
Incidentally, why is ‘progressive’ in quotes?
Also, while I’m about it – ‘retard’ is not a word used in polite society any longer.
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travellingslacker
June 5, 2018
@Aran Katrina is considered a “better actress” who has worked with “better filmmakers”??? seriously?!!!
All she has are some Bhai movies, and all those movies would have still made 300 crores if you replaced her with Daisy Shah
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Radhika
June 5, 2018
There was a time when I would get hot and bothered by the tripe spewed by the likes of Enigma, – that’s a misleading handle, by the way. There is nothing enigmatic about his views. If anything, they are patently obvious – but now I am mindful of that old saw of “never wrestle with a pig, you’ll both get dirty and the pig likes it”. I figure there’s no way any response can change such minds, and by giving such nuttiness any real-estate in my head, I’m just going to get my BP up. The use of “Bollytard” is itself an indication of the bilge that will follow.
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Aran
June 5, 2018
travellingslacker, I’m making absolutely no claim about Katrina being better. What I’m doing is trying to understand why she might be considered ‘better’ in the minds of people – and that is because she has worked with successful and better filmmakers more. Among her bhai movies were a Yash Chopra movie, a Rajkumar Santoshi movie, and so on. She has also worked with big, established production houses a lot more than Sonam. Her movies have consistently fared better at the box office than Sonam’s. She simply has a better track record,which I suppose is more due to luck and connections than anything else. That might be the reason why she is rated higher in general, in whichever way, than Sonam.
MANK and Anu, I feel Swara Bhaskar’s wardrobe choices were an attempt at character definition – to make her look like more of a risk-taker, in-your-face and flighty sort of person than the other three. But would that be reading too much into it? 🙂
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Dudjjf
June 6, 2018
Just a couple of gentle facts for Enigma – in ancient times, women in India were mostly topless. Also, the Mahabharata is incredibly progressive where Pandu’s Wives slept with various Men to beget the Pandavas due to his issues, women had pre-marital sex (kunti), women had multiple husbands/partners (panchali) etc etc. So, exactly which culture is he wanting young women to preserve ?
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Dudjjf
June 6, 2018
And quick fact check – My friends and I were groped and molested, not when we were attractive young women wearing “inviting” clothes, but when we were barely twelve years old, wearing baggy old school uniforms and oily braids, taking public transportation to school. Think “sexy clothes invite trouble and otherwise, men would just worship the ground women walk on”……..??? I know exactly where to tell you to stuff that opinion, but I will regrain
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Sana
June 6, 2018
@Madan Thanks! I certainly agree that one doesn’t need to be a religious Hindu with an affinity for classical music and dance in order to be considered a virtuous Indian. Unfortunately, that is the narrow definition that prevails today. Nevertheless, I wanted to point out that even if Engima insists upon this narrow, problematic definition of virtue, then it still isn’t incompatible with women who enjoy partying or whatever else he objects to. Most of the women I know have been fairly rambunctious and non-confirming as young adults but they also value their identity as Indian/ Tamilian/ Hindu and try to pass this on to their USA-born kids through Bharatnatyam, Paatu class, Golu et al. But as I mentioned, I have other Desi girlfriends who have rejected religious/ nationalistic values but nevertheless raise children to be very good human beings and impart a great deal of values around kindness, environmental friendliness, good work ethic and respecting all classes/ races/ genders equally.
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Enigma
June 6, 2018
Sana, Anu Warrier and Madan, plenty of interesting comments in your respective posts. I would like to mention here that my wife does not work nor do I expect her to. She does the more important job of teaching the kids, driving them to school and to classes, cooking for the family and taking care of the children’s needs. Entirely her choice and I did not force her.
I feel that it is the duty of every individual to preserve traditional values and culture and pass it on to the next generation. But women have a greater responsibility.
In regards to Indian women wearing western clothes in western societies, my point was that they wouldn’t stick out whereas they might in India. Ideally I would like Indian women to dress traditionally even here, but if they don’t that is fine, cause it would not attract attention. By the way, I admire the Arab women who even here wear the hijab, dress conservatively and preserve their traditional Islamic values- my wife’s dentist is a hijab wearing lady of Arab heritage. Once I had a chat with her, she was of the opinion that people should preserve their traditions and culture. Try telling that to one of these modern, young Indian women – you will be labeled a misogynist, chauvinist, pig. So my initial point was women in India should dress conservatively and stay away from these ‘modern practices’ for safety and cultural reasons.
I am glad that I moved to Sydney, at least my kids have zero exposure to Bollywood. It is easier to maintain ones tradition here than in India. There are 3 Hindu temples here (those that I know of), satsang groups, organizations that provide religious education to kids (even the government school in my suburb provides special religious education) and best of all you can completely avoid the toxic influence of Bollywood.
I don’t think that I have answered all your points. Apologies if I have offended you, but these are my views.
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Enigma
June 6, 2018
Sana, it is the culture less men (people who have not been taught traditional values) who attack women in India.
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Anu Warrier
June 6, 2018
Why is it incumbent upon women to ‘dress conservatively and stay away from these modern practices’ for safety and cultural reasons? Why is it not the men’s responsibility to keep their pants zipped and their hands to themselves? Talk about blaming the victim!
Again, which culture? The blouseless ones from our ancient texts? The surrogacy if our husbands are impotent? (Can we even state that it’s because the men have issues? No! Childless? Then it’s the woman who is barren.) Sati? When our husbands die? Jauhar if we are raped or molested?
Sana, it is the culture less men (people who have not been taught traditional values) who attack women in India.
And since it is the women who are supposed to be teaching this ‘culture’ (men, of course, have no responsibilities towards their children other than providing food and a roof over their heads), of course, it is the women’s fault that the men are cultureless. Right?
And it’s our fault we are molested/ sexually assaulted/raped/disfigured/murdered. It’s all because women have forgotten their culture and traditions and are following ‘modern’ ways. It’s because of the way we dress and because we go out late at night with men other than our fathers, brothers or husbands.
Got it.
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Madan
June 6, 2018
“In regards to Indian women wearing western clothes in western societies, my point was that they wouldn’t stick out whereas they might in India. ” – Wait a sec, now when you say western clothes, you have widened the spectrum like anything. Fifteen years back, I was in college and T shirt paired to jeans was already the attire of choice for my female classmates. Going back to 99/00, I remember going on the double decker 108 (now a humble single decker) from Malabar Hill to VT and a bunch of college students got in somewhere near Churchgate and they not only wore ‘Western’ clothes but conversed almost entirely in English. In both instances, I don’t remember them ever getting weird looks from anyone. So I have to tell you again, not only has metropolitan India changed but it’s a long time since it has changed.
Look, to some extent, I share your concern about USA’s soft power imperialism which devours native cultures of other countries but I part ways when it comes to telling others what to do. On the day when Mr Modi was busy getting himself photographed with Coldplay at the MMRDA grounds in BKC, I was attending a Shreya Ghoshal concert in the humbler (but imo far more illustrious) environs of Shanmukanandha Hall. Doesn’t a certain section of NRIs have high hopes from Modi that he will revive Indian culture and values? So next time he is in Sydney, maybe he should ask him why he wouldn’t attend – no need to even felicitate – a Shreya Ghoshal concert and support the one singer who is carrying the baton handed down from the greats? Um, assuming he actually takes a single unscripted question, that is.
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Kay
June 6, 2018
Enigma, just out of curiosity, do you dress conservatively in a veshti, walk barefoot, eat with your hands in a Sydney restaurant, etc. After all they are part of Indian culture too? Also, why are you even in Sydney? I think India needs you here to be the custodian of her culture.
Anu, can I borrow your spare helmet? Or wait, I would rather go into a self inflicted coma than read such opinions.
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Enigma
June 6, 2018
Anu Warrier, we obviously cannot go back to the blouse-less or the sati era, I was not implying that. But modernity does not mean making a virtue out of drinking, smoking, pub hopping, being promiscuous, uttering profanities. Let us stop making these look cool, progressive or acceptable. Young girls should not be misguided into thinking that only these activities would make them look progressive. By the way, have you heard of Savitri shaming? And for God’s sake I am not blaming the victims ( I would be needing that helmet more than anyone else). Just don’t give an opportunity to these savages.
Madan, as I said, I have never been to Mumbai. Lived all my life in Chennai before leaving the country in 2003. What gave you the impression that I am a Modi supporter? Anyway, one person cannot change the society, be it Modi, Rahul Gandhi or Kejriwal.
Kay, I do wear the veshti when visiting temples and obviously do not use a fork for dosas.
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Madan
June 6, 2018
@Enigma: So wait, you have never even lived in Mumbai and yet you decided that dropping a short skirt in a Mumbai local would be totally nuclear? Based on what? How would you know what is the city’s ethos without living there? Mumbai of all places is not loaded with saints and rapes happen here too but lamenting modernity in Mumbai is like…um, when has this city ever been different? You could say the suburbs at best were a tad conservative and then not at all but they have changed too. And it’s not about traditional or modern. Mumbai doesn’t care. It’s apathetic but also liberating. You can have er short skirts infidels of society sitting in a Barista at Diamond Garden while across the road, madisar mamis visit Ahobila Mutt with the little ones wearing davani. Co-existence, ever heard of it? And no, I didn’t call you a Modi supporter but since he is fond of talking to NRIs rather than Indian anti nationals, thought you could put across your concerns to him when he next comes plane hopping down under.
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Rahini David
June 6, 2018
Enigma: I come from a small town and have never been a fan of revealing clothes. Unlike most people who are not fans of revealing clothes, I don’t think “will she be easy/available/loose” or whatever term that people are currently using for this concept. Such easiness/availability/looseness is not specific to choices in clothes. Anyway you aren’t saying that it is. You are just saying it is looks like it and it is unbecoming to boot. I get it.
I think that teeny-weeny clothes make women afraid of gaining body fat and/or cellulite and terrified of normal aging. This is makes several (not all of them) people to take to unbecoming shortcuts. Not that men are not doing wrong things for the sake of their bodies’ aesthetics. But it is a sort of epidemic for women of all ages. Short clothes only LOOK like more freedom. They can actually be a prison in their teeny-weeny glory.
All those stuff said, these are just cultural rules. In one part of the world a woman’s elbow being visible is vulgar and I get that these women are stellar people who guard their ‘beautiful’ culture and voluntarily dress like how they do. But I refuse to accept that I, Rahini, who is sitting in a IT firm here in Chennai in a Chudi that makes her elbow visible is a lesser woman than those women clad to their wrists. In the same vein, I have to accept that that girl in the Mumbai Metro train in her sleeveless Kurti isn’t any lesser a person than me either.
As to those men who have left their wives in the village and have come to the cities. Well these men (like women) are guardians of the rich and dignified Indian culture. They should not use their didn’t-get-marital-sex-yesterday status as an excuse to do whatever you think they’d do. And if they do, the law of the land SHOULD punish them and not look at the hem-lines of their victims.
As for profanity. I wonder why people use words designed to hurt, defile and demoralise. I mean “Walking like a slut”? All I ask is what dignified self-respecting man uses a cheap crass line like that?
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Enigma
June 6, 2018
Madan, I used the word ‘Mumbai ‘ loosely, what I meant was an Indian city. In regards to your earlier point on US soft power, I am more worried about the corrupting influence of Bollywood.
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sanjana
June 6, 2018
Cant blame only bollywood. South cinema is no less. And there is Hollywood!
Filmi culture is in its own space like art. Our general lifestyle depends on family, the environment and also individual preferences. There is no one rule that can be applied to all.
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Enigma
June 6, 2018
Rahini David, I do completely agree that the animals who attack women have to be punished, capital punishment preferably. Again, I am not saying that the victims have to be blamed, but that women have a choice – be careful or reckless. On this topic, India seems to have gone completely nuts. Just read in a news website that a cab driver tried to rape a young professional.
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Sifter
June 6, 2018
I didn’t have high hopes for this film and don’t have any intention of watching it in theatres. That said, it is important that films with women (different kinds of women) get made, and if this makes money, it will add its own little might to those out there who want to make more women centered movies. Women writers/producers/directors/actors and their ilk in the movie business (as in other spheres) should be allowed, encouraged to make their share of mistakes just like men have been from time immemorial.
So what if this particular film shows 4 women drinking, smoking, partying, swearing, wearing modern clothes(the definition of this term escapes me!)? Dear Men, don’t take offense that the culture and tradition has gone to hell. Their conversation all the time is about you men! See, they can’t do without you for one damn moment in their lives. Be proud.
Self-righteous men (and women) who don’t drink or smoke, who are ultra-religious, who pass decrees on women, and think that they are the epitome of their own gender or humanity scare the heck out of me.
You (Mr. Enigma), my dear sir, should be mandated to watch the movie ‘The Accused’. Pronto!
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Anuja Chandramouli
June 6, 2018
Reading Enigma’s comments evoked pretty much the same reaction the Saamy 2 trailer did. I went ‘WTF! Is this dude for real’ and I composed a pretty vicious comment in response but wound up deleting the whole thing because it was a little too much. After that, my attitude to his entire thread has become a little more introspective. Sharing some thoughts below.
Our response to Enigma’s comments is proof if any was needed that at heart we are all extremists playing at being moderates, rationalists and idealists. None of us are inclined to hear out someone whose ideas and principles are at odds with ours. As BR pointed out eons ago in a blog post about Trump’s ascension to power which led to some truly fiery comments, we are all stuck in echo chambers, listening solely to views that mirror our own and ignoring the ground reality.
It is a brave new world where the liberal voices are the loudest and most have no patience for the conservatives. We will leave aside the fact that if we didn’t spend so much time on our smartphones and actually talked to people, not many define themselves as leftists, rightists, feminists, chauvinists, misogynists etc. but their beliefs are a Mish mash of all schools of thought. Not all Hindus are bhakts. All Muslims are not terrorists. All dissenters are not trolls. Men are not dogs and women are certainly not bitches, tramps, or sluts. When viewed in this context, perhaps there is no need to get mad as heck or morph into beast mode while raving and ranting against your neighbor who is uncomfortable with homosexuality (this person may not necessarily be homophobic) or a grandma who is squeamish about onscreen masturbation (let us please not lump her with the likes of the Karni Sena now). In the same vein, Enigma is entitled to his opinion too and barring the first comment where he wrote stuff like ‘Bollytards’ and ‘dressed like sluts’ he has defended his stand without being unduly vitriolic, so though not many of us are going to agree with him, I don’t think we should attack him either or dismiss him entirely. Then we will be no different from the self appointed guardians of morality and custodians of culture who seek to stifle freedom with violence. Not implying that anybody has done that here but we all know how these things snowball in BR’s blog right?
So I guess what I am trying to say is we need to spend a little time listening to viewpoints other than our own even if it makes us wanna hurl a bit, and try to understand where the other guy is coming from etc. That way we might actually have a shot at world peace and may even escape the politicians who have capitalized on the differences between us that have fractured this land.
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Kay
June 6, 2018
Enigma – What we are trying to say is irrespective of what clothes we wear, unless the men change, sexual assaults are not going to stop. In the meanwhile, we try to be cautious not by changing the way we dress but by learning self defence, being alert all the time and carrying pepper spray. I’m not saying these are foolproof techniques, but neither is covering oneself from head to toe going to help. And before you bring this up, it’s impossible to be accompanied by a family member or a male all the time. Even their presence with us doesn’t guarantee that we’ll be safe. India is a much different place than what you saw in 2003.
Also, I don’t know if you deliberately misunderstood my question on how you follow the so called sacred Indian culture. But from your answer I assume you wear traditional clothes when you visit temples and eat with your hand while visiting South Indian restaurants. My question was, why don’t you wear it to work? Why don’t you eat a ravioli with hand and try slurping a soup directly from the bowl? Do your kids wear traditional Indian clothes to school? Are you being hypocritical when you advocate that girls in India should dress conservatively in Indian traditional clothes, whereas most likely your wife and kids are exempted from this rule?
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MANK
June 6, 2018
Anuja Chandramouli, i was about to say to all our regular commenters here, ‘why waste your time and energy like this , its better preserved for something else ,as this is a hopeless case’. but ultimately , it was worth it ,to read your superb comment
The good and bad thing about Enigma is that he is not a troll. he genuinely believes what he is saying and whatever he is saying comes from a very personal space and from personal experiences and it needs to be respected and i do respect that. What i dont respect is that he refuse to believe that there can be a thought process beyond his or may be completely contrary to his.I am very familiar with people like Enigma, there are a few like him in my family as well.Raving and ranting at them is not the solution ,trust me they are very secure in their beliefs. As you said, only thing to do is listen tot hem, try to understand and move on
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hari
June 6, 2018
Anuja Chandramouli what an excellent comment. Exactly echoed my thoughts. Sometimes I feel people are waiting to pounce on someone who say things that are not in tune with their philosophies or whatever. Some even have the temerity to say “you have made me realize that you are beyond help. ” seriously. What gives people the notion that somebody needs help? Others idhan chance kidaichudunnu bad mouth Indian culture bringing in Sati, Jouhar, child marriage etc etc. I mean if you don’t agree with somebodies view point move on, why get into a discussion with him/her, you anyways have probably one in a billion chance to chance that person’s view point.
The only issue I have with your comment is your usage of the word bhakth. When did bhakth became a pejorative. Tulsidas, Eknath, Ramdas, Mirabhai etc etc were all bhakths. My amma is a Muruga bhakthai. Probably you meant to say Modi Bhakths?
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Enigma
June 6, 2018
Anuja Chandramouli, agree with most of the things that you say in your post.
Kay, learning self defence is important but not sure how effective that would be against desperate savages. Unfortunately Indian men will not change, at least the category that attack women, don’t hold your breath.
My wife does wear Indian clothes most of the time. Kids have to be in uniform but on special occasions, like on harmony day which is celebrated here, they do wear Indian clothes to school. I would love to wear Indian clothes to work (like the way Arabs wear the thobe to work and for all official occasions) but may not be permitted.
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Madan
June 6, 2018
@Anuja: Oh but I am listening very patiently to Enigma here and I think most if not all of the ones who have responded to him have. Listening/reading carefully is essential to draft an effective rebuttal. As you have noted, nobody has asked for him to be blocked and had anybody done so, I would have defended Enigma’s right to spout his patriarchal views. But free speech does not come with an obligation to be ‘nice’ in disagreement. Yes I will steadfastly avoid hurling abuses and hope others will too but I don’t have to tone down my vehemence especially not when Enigma’s first post rather vehemently labelled women wearing short skirts as sluts. As Rahini pointed out, that isn’t very gentlemanly language and not one becoming of a self appointed guardian of culture. If one thinks wearing short skirts is not very Indian, one may say so without calling them sluts.
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Enigma
June 6, 2018
MANK, thank you for your kind words.
Hari, appreciate your post
Madan, yes I shouldn’t have used that word. Apologies to those who were offended.
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Rahul
June 6, 2018
Going through all comments by Enigma – I think he has a point. Extending this logic, I think we should advice African Americans to not visit India , owing to the incidents of racism here. After all, they have a choice, they should be careful.
Also, the dalits are routinely attacked when trying to take their wedding processions through the areas dominated by upper castes. Why cannot they be careful and avoid this? They have a choice.
Very proud of Enigma for standing up to these liberal progressives.
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Sana
June 6, 2018
It is incredible to see people pretending that Enigma hasn’t been uncivil or extreme with his opinions. He called ‘modern’ Indian women sluts and retards, he said that he despairs for the loss of civilisation when such horrible women become mothers and suggested that India will become a ‘crap hole’ without any culture unless some Taliban-style control of what these ‘modern’ women wear and how they behave is implemented. He espoused disturbing views that seek to curtail Indian women’s most basic rights of freedom of movement and dress.
We have every right (and indeed I think it is our duty) to speak up and counter such poisonous and extreme views, especially since he isn’t part of some fringe minority and there are many institutions ranging from reputed colleges to khap panchayats, that implement such rules to encroach on women’s rights everyday in India. I also don’t agree that we are all extremists in some form or the other. Unlike Enigma, none of us have swung to other side, shaming people for being religious, nationalistic or conservative (in fact, I’ve repeatedly argued in my comments that both worldview are compatible and not opposed to each other).
It’s very disturbing to see people criticising and tone policing women who have responded in a civil manner, given how uncouth and insulting Enigma has been to the type of women he disapproves of, suggesting that we are unfit to be mothers and that we will cause the ruin of civilisation! And when he glorified and pedestalises this patriarchal ‘culture’, then yes – it is essential to point out its many, many, many pitfalls including large scale genocide of millions of its own daughters.
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Sana
June 6, 2018
In which alternate universe are these comments considered civil, moderate and not deserving of strong replies?
Bollytards seem to think that women uttering profanities, being openly promiscuous and going to bars as progress. Walking around like sluts is an open invitation for trouble. Being controlled by parents and well-wishers is better than being assaulted by desperate thugs.
Sad to learn that India is losing its culture and becoming a crap hole. A colleague of mine from Mumbai was here in Sydney. Instead of wanting to visit the harbour bridge or the opera house, she was more keen on finding about the coolest bars and where to get weed.
When these pub hopping, weed smoking, ‘modern’ young girls become mums, I shudder to think what they will teach their kids. When culture is lost, the civilisation gets destroyed.
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Anu Warrier
June 6, 2018
@Anuja, None of us are inclined to hear out someone whose ideas and principles are at odds with ours.
I’m fine with someone who has conservative views – regarding himself. You want to protect your version of Indian tradition and culture? Go for it. My issue comes when that view is directed at others – as Enigma did. So young women are sluts if they wear revealing clothes? Drink? Smoke?
Now, the disclaimer – I’m not a great fan of teeny-tiny revealing clothes. I don’t smoke. I have a drink perhaps three times a year. I very rarely (won’t say ‘never’) use profanity. Definitely not in my writing, and very, very rarely – like ‘drop a hammer on my foot’ rarely – in speech. I don’t think drinking or smoking or swearing are signs of being ‘modern’ or ‘progressive’. That said, plenty of Indian women have been smoking and drinking and swearing for ages – it’s not something that young 20-somethings have discovered today.
None of this, and I repeat, none of this, means women who do not dress like me, speak like me, behave like me were ‘asking for it’ which is what Enigma was implying. My (and his ) right to what I think is ‘revealing’ or ‘against Indian culture’ ends at the end of my nose.
I’m all for personal responsibility – but if my son is attacked because he wandered drunk around a neighbourhood, no one will say it is his fault. However, if it is a woman, questions arise: ‘What were you wearing?’ ‘Were you drunk?’ ‘Why did you go out at night?’ ‘Who were you with?’
I’m tired of ‘liberal’ and ‘progressive’ being used as synonyms for people who are ‘against’ conservatives and tradition. I’m pretty conservative in a heck of a lot of ways – my dress of choice for formal/social occasions even here is still a well-draped sari. But I will continue to voice dissent against the double standards. Especially because most, if not all, are heavily weighted against women. And the irony of someone who’s left India, lives in Sydney, talking about failing Indian traditions and blaming ‘Bollytards’ for young women becoming ‘sluts’ is rich.
Lastly, I have not ‘railed’ against Enigma or tried to shut him up. Like Madan, I’ve very patiently read (‘listened’) to what he’s saying. But I reserve my right to disagree with what he says – even vehemently when the stated expression is so regressive. Especially when the fault for being assaulted is doubly the women’s – a) for dressing so provocatively and drinking and smoking and being out so late at night b) for not teaching their sons their own culture. And oh, I forgot c) for not being the gatekeepers of this great culture and tradition.
Anytime someone brings in ‘culture and tradition’ to talk about women, you can bet your last penny that it will be something that keeps women safely within the bounds of patriarchy.
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Anu Warrier
June 6, 2018
@Sana, applause. I’m so glad you said that! I’m very, very tired of the false equivalency. No, we are not all ‘extremists’ and pointing out the fallacy in his freely-expressed opinion is not being ‘liberal and progressive’ and wanting to ‘live in an echo-chamber’. It is just wanting to live, period.
As you so rightly point out, it is views like these that restrict women’s rights (not just in India – just see what’s happening in the US) all over the world.
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rsylviana
June 6, 2018
@hari – *Some even have the temerity to say “you have made me realize that you are beyond help. ” seriously. What gives people the notion that somebody needs help? *
Assuming your comment is pointed at me , I do believe Mr.Enigma needs help figuring out that women who dress provocatively in western clothes/drink/smoke are not asking for it neither in India nor anywhere in the world. And I believe so not because he has opinions or viewpoints different than mine but because he is forcing his own viewpoints on others and basically thinking such people are lesser humans.
And after saying all this you have mentioned
I mean if you don’t agree with somebodies view point move on, why get into a discussion with him/her, you anyways have probably one in a billion chance to chance that person’s view point
Isn’t it EXACTLY what I have done in my first comment directed at Mr.Enigma ?!?!.
Or do you mean I should have refrained from voicing even that comment and must have moved on with my life because hey what do I know right?!
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Madan
June 6, 2018
Anu Warrier: I agree completely with what you said. For that matter, my own choices are superficially conservative as in I generally dress boring and don’t drink or smoke. It isn’t about being liberal or progressive; how liberal does one really have to be to not stand in the way of somebody’s choice?
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Arjun
June 6, 2018
Enigma’s basic point is correct. Indian men are savages, period. Liberal, traditional, religious, doesn’t matter. India is famous globally for two things – for the Taj Mahal and for being a country of rapists. There are desperate lecherous men at every corner, sexual desperation exacerbated by the skewed sex ratio, lack of basic sex education and not knowing how to have normal interactions with women (mother-whore dichotomy). So yes, women do need to be careful around (Indian) men. Frankly the best thing any modern Indian woman who likes to do normal fun things like have a drink, wear whatever clothes they like and not be subject to lecherous stares and groping in public spaces is to get out of the country, if they have the chance. Else, if you are in India be careful is sane advice, walking the streets alone at night in most Indian cities is akin to taking a stroll in the jungle. And yes, Indians are racist to the boot. So Africans who have intentions of pursuing education in India would indeed be well-advised to look elsewhere. One, our universities are shit, two China, Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore… there are plenty of other countries who offer quality education and where they won’t be stigmatized and ostracized as much as in India. I’ve personally advised a young American couple against taking a backpacking trip to India. To the Dalits who get beaten up by upper-caste men, what can one say, carry on the good fight!
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shaviswa
June 6, 2018
This is a very interesting thread. Lots of discussion about culture, preservation, India vs western world, etc etc.
One point that I would like to make to the folks who live outside India. While you are better connected to India these days compared to previous generations that went abroad, thanks to technology and media, you are still disconnected with the changes happening in India.
Culture changes with time. It is influenced by our interactions with other people in other parts of the world. When you leave India, you take with you a culture that is frozen in your mind. And when you come back to India, you think India has lost its culture and traditions. That is not true. Indian culture is what is being followed and practiced in India now, today, at this moment. This is the culture of this land. Your notion of Indian culture is outdated. When I see none of the young girls in my family circle in India wearing a half saree, and I see kids from the US posting photographs from some event decked in beautiful half sarees, I find them weird. I feel like watching an 80s or early 90s movie.
I am sure with time you will feel the same about other ‘traditional stuff’ as well. But that is how it will be.
If Indian women today are wearing skirts or Jeans or other dresses, that is accepted as part of the culture here. And hence the problem with culture police clowns who try to impose their notion of Indian-ness. They are actually trying to turn the clock back in their quest to define what is the real Indian culture.
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KM
June 6, 2018
Enigma I understand where you are coming from because I too grew up with a father you had very conservative views. From my experience of raising a daughter and son is that it is more important to not restrict them but to educate them about being able to take care of themselves, talking about health risks of smoking, doing drugs, unwanted pregnancy about the privilege of being given the freedom to make choices. I talked to them about the privilege of getting higher education that not only myself but all my sisters were denied because of views my dad about giving girls too much freedom. And this is the very reason why I have given my kids the freedom to choose what to study, career they wanted to follow and if they wanted to live independently they are able to do so. This is my personal view that I want my kids to be able to survive independently when I am not around to take care of them.
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Sahir.
June 6, 2018
Wow, I wonder whether Enigma knew the hornet’s nest he was putting his (I’m hoping Kolhapuri-chappalled) foot into when he dropped that first comment? Doubt it.
I am responding to the comments about the corrupting influence of Bollywood, which apparently one can evade by going to Sydney. I would like to ask, exactly how does Bollywood corrupt someone? If I watch Veere Di Wedding, and am suddenly inspired to swear, drink have sex, have I been corrupted? And if I watch Veere Di Wedding, and still refrain from indulging in these “vices”(!), does that mean I am pure and innocent? The answer is no and no. Who knows what kind of a person I am? That’s a far more important consideration. Unless someone is, of course, judging my personality by these parameters, in which case I doubt those are people I want to fraternise with.
Another point: I have friends who swear, drink, smoke weed, and have sex — and they are some of the nicest, most considerate people I know. These friends of mine also wear sarees and kurtas frequently, love Indian food, take the local train (and rely on it heavily), and enjoy living in Mumbai. And so do I. So I would like to know where these friends of mine and I fit? Are we corrupt and untraditional because we go to bars and drink? Or are we pure and whole because we like Indian clothes and food?
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Anu Warrier
June 6, 2018
When you leave India, you take with you a culture that is frozen in your mind. And when you come back to India, you think India has lost its culture and traditions. That is not true. Indian culture is what is being followed and practiced in India now, today, at this moment. This is the culture of this land.
Shavishwa, you never said a truer word! This ‘culture’ they are talking about is not a static thing. It changes. And it should. My friend was telling me how, when they came to India, her daughters were the only ones wearing half-saris and salwar kameezes, while their cousins were all in midi-skirts and jeans.
That said, Enigma says he left India in 2003. India wasn’t stuck in some time warp in 2003 – even in Chennai, women were wearing short skirts and jeans. I should know – I was wearing short skirts (not minis) and jeans in Chennai in 1990. There were enough women who enjoyed a drink even in Chennai, and even some who, gasp, smoked! Profanity, as far as I can see, has never been the prerogative of a gender.
Again, I’m not advocating any of these for men or women, really. I don’t swear, and I’ve never smoked. I enjoy a drink for the taste of the drink, but drinking for drinking’s sake, or to be ‘cool’ has never appealed to me. I have no problems saying ‘No’ when I don’t want alcohol. I’ve really never considered it ‘cool’. (And I’ll assume that these young things aren’t also doing it just to be ‘cool’.)
But I find it interesting that Enigma’s bile was reserved for the women – as if men smoking, drinking, being profane and molesting /assaulting women isn’t the end of ‘culture as he knows it’.
And that is why I take umbrage at being told that we are ‘all’ extremists when we protest this opinion. Or the demeaning term he used to refer to young women who go against his patriarchal views on women.
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Anuja Chandramouli
June 6, 2018
Now I wish I had not deleted the comment I deleted in it’s entirety. Because I had mentioned that Sana’s comments were bloody brilliant. Also pretty much on the same page as Anu and Rahini. Thought that went without saying.
Anu Warrior: “Lastly, I have not ‘railed’ against Enigma or tried to shut him up.” That was not implied, besides as someone who has done more than her fair share of raving and ranting in these parts, I wouldn’t have had a problem with anyone doing the same. Besides I was making more of a general observation regarding and wondering if railing is effective when dealing with those who are as passionate as we are regarding whatever issue is at hand. It somehow feels like being in an endless shouting match which is ultimately pointless because nothing gets resolved. I was not suggesting that we all shut up and put up with nonsense but merely saying that we need to acknowledge that people need not change how they think (nobody has the right to tell someone else how they ought to feel about stuff) as long as they know how to behave. Enigma apologized for using that offensive term but not about how he feels. I can live with that.
PS: Bless you MANK!
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KM
June 7, 2018
Just a thought what empowering young girls/women can lead to:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/miss-americas-email-scandal-1.4462056
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Enigma
June 7, 2018
The liberals in India do try to imply, through their writings, views expressed in the social media that ‘these acts’ are modern, progressive, let us not pretend otherwise. Even a recent tweet from the official Indian National Congress twitter handle had something aling that lines. I have read quite a few opinion pieces. This is what angers me, the subtle/not so subtle attempts to imply that conservative/traditional women are backward. I see that as an attempt to influence young minds.
KM, I agree with you. I do teach my kids about the health effects of consuming drugs, alcohol etc. and yes, they have to be strong, self reliant and able to take care of themselves. In addition I do try teach them about the importance of following our culture.
Arjun, you are right ( not sure if you were being sarcastic though). It will be interesting to do a root cause analysis to find out why have things come to such a pass. That is the topic for another discussion.
Shaviswa, I lived in the Middle East for quite sometime before moving to Australia. I admire the way the Arabs hold on to their traditional Islamic values. I lived in Bahrain – Bahraini women are educated, hold important positions, articulate but they haven’t given up their traditional values. Middle East (Bahrain, Dubai) is more modern than India (in terms of infrastructure, facilities) but they haven’t given up their culture. I have seen Arab women here too, professionals but again haven’t given up their culture. Arabs may have other faults but there are certain things that we can learn from them.
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Enigma
June 7, 2018
http://m.rediff.com/amp/news/column/savitrishaming-and-why-women-must-not-drink/20160915.htm
People, this article on Savitri shaming is a couple of years old but very relevant to what I was referring to. Pasting a link to the piece with the moderator’s kind permission.
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Madan
June 7, 2018
” It will be interesting to do a root cause analysis to find out why have things come to such a pass. ” – Is it that things have come to a pass or that you left India with a rose tinted view of the country? That is for you to reflect on. You have the option of practicing Indian culture customised to your requirements in a foreign land (which ironically does the very thing you rail against, as in permits you to practice a culture different from their own). We on the other hand endure the everyday reality of India. At least I as a middle class, upper caste Hindu male enjoy privileges that I do not even ask for (like I don’t wear my Brahmin identity on my sleeve and neither do Dalits but our caste conscious society knows the difference all the same and treats us differently). What of those who don’t? What of a Muslim just trying to get a flat on rent in Mumbai? Do you know how difficult housing societies with Hindu majority make it for any owner wanting to let out his flat to a Muslim tenant?
From this point of view, we are least sympathetic to people railing against the loss of Indian culture because, whether you do actually support them or not, it is the chief concern of the cultural right in India which is seemingly obvious to the far more severe and urgent problems of India but hyperventilates over Valentines Day. What cultural pride can a society that stubbornly refuses to reform itself and live up to the freedom and equality promised by the constitution really aspire to? Again, let me ask you, what do you really expect the women of India to do about all of these problems anyway, especially when the males, having appropriated power all for themselves have failed gloriously till date?
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Madan
June 7, 2018
Enigma: Appropros ‘Savitri shaming’, I have endured the male version of it all my life. Yeah, because in the typical Indian male’s imagination, only drinking and smoking is cool and attending an Iron Maiden concert is ‘weird’. Anything that the Indian male with his limited exposure and worldview doesn’t understand is ‘weird’, the sound of Tamil is weird and worthy of distasteful imitation to a local Marathi chap in Mumbai. Except I never pleaded to cultural guardians for help and have stood up for myself, my identity. Do enlighten me as to why no articles lamenting this, what should I call it Ram-shaming?, have ever been written. And don’t blame it on ‘loose’ women. Up to my parents’ generation, the vast majority of drinkers and smokers in India were men (and to be honest, despite whispers to the contrary, I don’t think the ratio has changed that much) so every drinker who thought it is ok to tell a teetotaller to ‘be a man’ got it from his father.
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Enigma
June 7, 2018
Sahir, in my opinion an Indian girl is far more likely to be influenced by Kareena Kapoor or Deepika Padukone than by Jennifer Lawrence. So when she sees these actresses doing certain things on screen and off screen (Instagram or Twitter), there is a chance that she would aspire for a similar kind of lifestyle for herself. And when her friends too imitating these actresses, there is an added pressure to fall in line. Hollywood is too far away, they look different, they don’t speak the same language, have a different accent etc. I actually have first hand experience of Indian girls being thought of as easy by some guys I met in the Middle East. I would hate our women to have that kind of image. They should command the respect that an Arab woman gets. In regards to your question on your female friends drinking, partying and having pre-marital sex, all I can say is that it does not fit within my idea of an ideal Indian woman (you can hate me for that, but that is my opinion). I am sure your friends are wonderful people and I wish them all success and happiness but I have a different idea of Indian womanhood. Let us leave it at that.
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Enigma
June 7, 2018
I grew up in Chennai in the 90s and none of the girls that I knew drank or partied or smoked. They would even hesitate to pillion ride. Goes without saying they would always wear Indian dresses. I guess I moved in different circles.
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sanjana
June 7, 2018
What arabs think of Indian women need not worry us. We are not here to please arabs or others. Just like what Indians think of western culture does not bother them. What is bothersome to our tourism industry is safety of both men and women visiting our country. When I step out, I am worried about stray dogs more than anything else. And also worried
about robbers waiting to snatch my bag.
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Sana
June 7, 2018
Enigma: I’ve never been to Bahrain, but I have been to Dubai, Lebanon and Tunisia. Dubai has an incredibly vibrant nightlife and Emarati women are world famous for spending the most money on glamorous couture at Paris and London Fashin Weel. I felt far safer walking around at night there than I’ve ever felt in India.
In both Lebanon and Tunisia, I’ve seen women on public beaches in tiny swimsuits (alongside other women in hijabs) which I’m sure according to you, would make these countries far less ‘cultured’ than India since no woman would ever dream of stepping onto Marina or Besant Nagar beach in a bikini. In Tunisia, alcohol is freely available in super markets and I saw many women drinking in the chic beachside bars in neighbourhoods like La Marsa and Sidi Bou Said, which resemble the South of France more than any drab, Taliban-esque vision of the Middle East. My friends from both Tunisia and Jordan tell me that arranged marriage is nearly extinct there (their parents would never consider it for them) and nearly all urban women date as do many rural women.
So please stop constructing this laughable strawman of some uniformly extremist Arab world that still preserves a fuedal way of life untouched by time. Sure, the most repressive countries might be like that but even they are changing this ‘culture’ at a fast pace – Saudi is opening up cinemas and letting women drive, for instance. As for the more moderate and progressive Mediterranean Arab countries, they are far, far ahead of India on every parameter that you disapprove of, be it women who date, have pre-martial sex, divorce, dress sexily, drink or party.
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Enigma
June 7, 2018
Madan, those are important issues that you have raised. I am appalled by the treatment of minorities and Dalits by certain people in India. Sydney is a wonderful multi-cultural place where all cultures are respected and that is how I want India to be. But that is a different issue and has to be addressed. My concern is about people abandoning their culture. I am also sorry about your experiences. The attitude of Indian men has to change too.
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Sana
June 7, 2018
I would hate our women to have that kind of an image…it does not fit into my ideal of an Indian women.
Herein lies your problem. We are not ‘your’ women. You don’t have ownership over (more than) half a billion Indian women. Since you’re already married to a woman who fits your rigid ideal of Indian womanhood why are you obsessed with how other women, particularly of a far younger generation, behave? I’ve seen people of many races and nationalities here in the USA and the ones who are the most territorial about women are Indians. Whether it’s extreme disapproval about Desi women (but not men) in interracial relationships or chiding a woman they barely know for cutting her long hair short and supposedly ruining her femininity, I’m amazed at the impunity with which some (certainly not all) Indians (both men and women) assume ownership over women who have absolutely no desire to be associated with them and then entrust these women with the responsibility to uphold their izzat/ image. I remember (when I was much younger and unmarried) going to a friends house in New Jersey and having her aunt tell me to behave in X, Y and Z archaic ways so as to uphold her honour. I was flabbergasted and honestly couldn’t understand why this woman who wasn’t even my friend or family thought her honour rested in me! It would never occur to me that I could derive any honour or shame from how unconnected, unknown Indian men behave, especially considering that we come from such a vast country with such diverse norms than vary so starkly from my own. Sorry, but we really don’t want to belong to you or bear the burden of living up to the ideal images that each of a million unconnected men have of how we should behave.
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shaviswa
June 7, 2018
BTW smoking, drinking, wearing revealing/short dresses have nothing to do with culture. Those are individual preferences. The majority of people in India still are rooted to their traditions. Thanks to MSM and social media, we see and hear a lot more of the outliers.
Secondly, our view of people also changes as we age. When I was in school, every one that I knew was from a middle class family, with almost similar value systems (most of us were from the same neighborhood going to a school in the neighborhood) and speaking the same language. My first brush with a different set of people came when I went to my undergrad college where I met students who were from poor to lower middle class families as well as from upper classes driving fancy bikes and cars. But again, all of them were from Madras so despite the class differences, there was a lot of homogeneity.
When I went for post-grad, I got to interact with people from all over India. Very different value systems, very different thought processes and also different sets of prejudices. I met someone from a small town down South in TN for the first time in the Hindi heartland. I spoke to him like I would to anyone else from Madras and was taken aback when he got offended for addressing him in singular. He was only 2 years senior to me but he did not like that. He accused me of being a typical Madras guy with no respect or values while speaking to elders. 🙂
To come back to the context of this comment, our view of culture and tradition changes as we meet more and more people. We realize that what we grew up with in a cocooned environment is no longer valid in the wide world. What was Indian culture and tradition to me at Madras, at T.Nagar, was not the same in other parts of the country. Heck, even within the state.
When I go to Madras today, I see a different city. People dress, speak and behave differently. There has been a lot of influx from people of other regions and states and these are reflected in how people have changed over time.
@Enigma – to your comment
“I grew up in Chennai in the 90s and none of the girls that I knew drank or partied or smoked. They would even hesitate to pillion ride. Goes without saying they would always wear Indian dresses. I guess I moved in different circles.”
Yes. You did. And now you are seeing people from other circles and this is probably the root of your assessment of how cultural decadence has set in India. 🙂
Just look at today’s folks as following Indian culture and you will no longer have the conflict that you face.
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Kay
June 7, 2018
Enigma, while you are entitled to your views on culture and its preservation, don’t shame those who don’t subscribe to those views (riding pillion with a male friend or colleague stopped being an issue ages ago). Just as you feel it’s wrong to Savithri-Shane women who don’t drink, it is also wrong to moral police those who do. And for the zillionth time, drinking/smoking/wearing clothes of one’s choice (I refuse to call them modern or short or revealing or whatchamacallit) doesn’t mean a girl thinks she is modern or progressive. They don’t do it to make themselves look cool.
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taranwarner
June 7, 2018
@Enigma your views are problematic and rather incorrect. Smoking and drinking have nothing to do with culture. My grandmother did both at one point and my mother is quite religious. Most of my maternal family is. So many women especially older ones in villages smoke beedis and drink arrack and other local spirits and they also instill the proper cultural values in their children. You’re making the typical mistake of judging a person’s character by these things which is very wrong.
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shaviswa
June 7, 2018
I need to add here that smoking, drinking and promiscuous behaviour have nothing to do with culture. They should be condemned universally across all cultures and across both sexes.
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Madan
June 7, 2018
Enigma: Thanks for the support but I have never felt hurt or distressed by these wannabe coolsters, only amused. The odd time I received racial invective on the internet also I felt amused. I am pleasantly surprised to see a recent Charles Blow column (for New York Times) echo the same sentiment. If somebody seems to shame my way of life, it only reveals their own insecurity to me. Now policing on the other hand is a different ball game because it denies me the right to make my choices about how I want to live.
I agree with you that young Indian women are more likely to be influenced by Deepika Padukone or Katrina Kaif than whichever Hollywood star but they (their counterparts from earlier times that is) would have also been influenced more by Sharmila Tagore or Gautami for that matter. Maybe the core, quintessence of Indian culture is more durable than you think.
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Enigma
June 7, 2018
Shaviswa, I beg to differ. Culture encompasses religion, food, what we wear, how we wear it, social practices. Having said that, I do hope that, as you say, a majority of Indians are still rooted in tradition. That would be comforting. Also I get your point on the fact that India has various social groups but the position of women, the respect given to the mother figure (let us not talk about the savages who attack women) is quite similar across the country.
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Madan
June 7, 2018
Sana : So now I know why Adi Chopra films do so well abroad. Guess people like that New Jersey aunty would have loved DDLJ.
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Enigma
June 7, 2018
Sana, I have never been to Tunisia or Lebanon but in Dubai I have not seen Emarati women in any dress other than the abaya. Dubai has a thriving night life catering to the massive expat population. I’ve been to Jumeira beach, most of the people in bikinis were westerners.
I don’t claim any ownership over Indian women, it is the adverse impact on culture that I worry about. I have already elaborated on my views about custodianship of culture/traditions. On a side note, if you get a chance do speak to any Arab, Pakistani or even Indian Muslim men about their views on the women of their. community/nation etc. You will be surprised to learn that they too are ‘territorial’ about the women of their community.
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Enigma
June 7, 2018
Kay, never said that pillion riding with a male colleague or friend is an issue.
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Sifter
June 7, 2018
@Sana: Brilliant comments.
@ Anu: Agree with your comments too.
@Anuja: You should definitely have saved your fiery responses. And posted it here 😊
Our response to Enigma’s comments is proof if any was needed that at heart we are all extremists playing at being moderates, rationalists and idealists. None of us are inclined to hear out someone whose ideas and principles are at odds with ours.
This ‘blame the woman’ culture of most Indian men (and the rest of the world) has been going on for ages and ages and they bludgeon the women with it from every front. It is high time that the rebellious, vociferous, loud, logical voices are HEARD. And heard and shouted until it pierces the airtight brains and mindsets of those who always put women into the cultural, traditional cage all through their lives (needless to say, there are exceptions… ofcourse). Doesn’t matter if it does not make them change, but it should matter that they atleast know that their women-blaming comments will not go un-noticed or un-responded irrespective of how they mock or ridicule them or try to shame them.
So I guess what I am trying to say is we need to spend a little time listening to viewpoints other than our own even if it makes us wanna hurl a bit, and try to understand where the other guy is coming from etc. That way we might actually have a shot at world peace.
@Enigma:
I actually have first hand experience of Indian girls being thought of as easy by some guys I met in the Middle East. I would hate our women to have that kind of image. They should command the respect that an Arab woman gets.
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Rahul
June 7, 2018
Enigma says –
“I am appalled by the treatment of minorities and Dalits by certain people in India. Sydney is a wonderful multi-cultural place where all cultures are respected and that is how I want India to be. But that is a different issue and has to be addressed. My concern is about people abandoning their culture.”
How is that a different issue? Shoddy treatment of Dalits has long been the culture of India. Not sure why you are siding with the liberals and trying to impose Australian culture on Indians.
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Rahul
June 7, 2018
Also LMFAO at “by certain people in India” .
https://thelogicalindian.com/news/up-kasganj-administration-maps-out-safe-wedding-route-for-dalit-groom-who-wants-to-ride-horse/
“This comes days after a Dalit youth in Saurashtra, Gujarat was hacked to death, allegedly by upper caste men for riding a horse.Sanjay’s assertion against an enforced custom is raising the temperature in Kasganj.”
This is a custom . And basically the state / police is doing the right thing by asking the Dalits to find another route, instead of protecting them and enabling them to carry out their constitutional right. Can constitution be bigger than culture?
This is our culture, We have to save it. No longer proud of Enigma for trying to impose values of other countries.
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shemz
June 7, 2018
Why is the huge responsibility of carrying forward the culture only on the shoulders on women – indian or arabic ? We are very sure that it is of immense responsibility to preserve one’s culture so why is it the responsibility of one gender only, and one mostly assumed/ viewed as the weaker gender? So, in that spirit lets list the ways in which men can preserve ‘culture’. I got nothing. So, this is where I have a problem. Even when people argue vehemently for upholding/ preserving the culture, they have nothing that men ‘have to’ do to preserve it. Btw, what exactly is ‘culture’? If all that ‘culture’ cares about is the fashion choices of one particular gender, aren’t we defining it wrong?
Enigma, About Indian girls being influenced more by Deepika than Jennifer Lawrence, that is what we would like to believe isn’t it? So, my sister and I are a almost a decade apart and I have started to feel the ‘generation gap’. She has not stepped out of India, and I have been to a mixture of US and UK for work, pleasure and family. But when she said the theme for her college farewell, for a college in chennai, is ‘coachella’, I was like ‘enna la?’ 🙂 India is not stuck in some warp, where everyone gets together and celebrates joyously every single religious festival, watch only regional films and are ignorant of the outside world. They consume western music, movies, sports, korean pop, everything that they can get their hands on! So, if we are blaming indian girls for the loss of ‘culture’ let’s share it between Deepika and Jennifer Lawrence equally (Kidding!).
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Anu Warrier
June 7, 2018
They should command the respect that an Arab woman gets.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ask an Arab woman from Saudi Arabia what respect she has in her society. Or actually, in most extremist Arab countries. Don’t cherry-pick the statistics to prove your point.
Also, you’re acting as if Arab women don’t drink, don’t smoke and they never have pre-marital sex. Ask the doctors in Arab countries how many Arab girls come in private to abort the fruits of premarital sex. How far they travel so they won’t be stoned – or worse!
Please don’t hold up Arab society as an ideal for Indian women to idolise.
The izzat of Indian women is not on the shoulders of men like you. As Sana points out, the fact that you are not even a fringe group we can dismiss, is scary. Because it is other thekedaars of ‘Indian culture’, the ones who believe that Indian women should follow ‘Indian’ culture, who are responsible for the sorry plight of Indian women in India today.
Your article on ‘Savitri-shaming’ – a) I am not, and have never been a proponent of forcing anyone to drink or smoke. Not even when I could drink like a fish. And I have no problems saying ‘No’ when I don’t want to drink. I will strongly oppose anyone shaming others for not drinking or smoking or anything else – these are personal choices. b) Yes, peer pressure is a thing. That goes not just for drinking or smoking, it is for all the stupid things that one does when one is in college. My point is that you only put the onus on the women – Women should be one particular way.
Here’s the thing – ‘Women’ are not one homogenous mass. We are not cut-out templates, formed out of one mould. We are not here to fit your ideal of ‘Indian woman’.
Finally,, ‘liberal’ media doesn’t posit that drinking and smoking are progressive. Not any liberal media that I have read. Reading social media posts and extrapolating whatever you want them to mean doesn’t make it so.
What’s the most ironic in your postings is that in Every. Single. Post. you squarely place the onus of ‘tradition’ and ‘culture’ on the shoulders of women. Even when you pay lip service as being against the double standards in society that allow men to get away scot free with sexual assault. It is the women’s fault that they walk out like sluts. It is their fault if they dress in western clothes. It is their fault that the next generation will not know the much-vaunted Indian culture. It is their fault that Indian culture will collapse.
Yes, I know none of what we say will change your mind – it will only solidify your opinion that Indian culture, especially in the hands of Indian women like us, is teetering on the edge of oblivion.
But here’s the thing – this modern progressive feminist knows a darn sight more about our scriptures and our religious texts, as well as our traditions and our rituals than many of these people who pose as the guardians of tradition and culture.
Being modern and progressive doesn’t preclude that.
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Anu Warrier
June 7, 2018
@Sana, standing applause Thank you for your many excellent posts.
@Madan – thank you for pointing out the double standards in his postings vis-à-vis men and women.
@Anuja, peace. I thought that post was very, very unlike you. 🙂
No, I don’t think I am going to change his mind – his subsequent postings reflect that misogyny and patriarchy even more, even if he is polite and well-mannered about it (which only means that it’s polite misogyny). However, as Sana points out, views such as these need to be called out.
This is not some fringe group whom we can dismiss; this is mainstreaming of the conservative thought that women have some particular position in society that they need to uphold; that there’s a Lakshman rekha they should not cross lest they fall from their pedestal of ‘ideal’. Whose ideal?
Of course, it also behooves us to remember that the original Lakshman rekha was also drawn by a man. And it has been used as a cautionary tale for women ever since. Dahleez mat paar karo.
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Anu Warrier
June 7, 2018
I actually have first hand experience of Indian girls being thought of as easy by some guys I met in the Middle East.
And you said exactly what to them? Did you lecture them on properly respecting women? After all, isn’t that one of the cornerstones of this tradition and culture you’re prating on about? Did you stand up for your countrywomen? Tell your Arab friends that they were being disrespectful? After all, if they were talking about ‘your’ women, shouldn’t you have taken umbrage at how they were being viewed by men outside the kom? Shouldn’t you have been fighting for their honour?
No. The onus on other men viewing women as chattel is also the fault of the women; not the intentions of the men. This is the naak kat jaayegi mindset that khap panchayats use as a club to keep women in their place.
You know, the difference between a real man and a patriarchal one (you notice I do not say ‘conservative’ man vs. ‘modern’ man) is that a real man would treat a whore as a lady. A patriarchal mindset treats all women as whores unless they are devis – stone idols allowed no agency, no feelings, no emotions, no humanity – on a pedestal that they can garland and keep locked behind barred doors.
‘Our’ women vs, ‘their’ women – which is why women – everywhere – pay the price for the wars men wage. We are disposable. ‘Honour’ is only something that is restricted to ‘our’ women, and that, when ‘our’ women stay within the narrow confines of what men define for us as ‘honour’.
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Anu Warrier
June 7, 2018
Also, JFYI in general: ‘Pre-marital sex’ =/= ‘promiscuity’. Two entirely different things.
/pet peeve
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rsylviana
June 7, 2018
A real man would treat a whore as a lady. A patriarchal mindset treats all women as whores unless they are devis – stone idols allowed no agency, no feelings, no emotions, no humanity
Whoa!!!! Just for this line you have all my standing ovations and saashtaangams at the same time Ms.Warrier . In just two lines , you have packed in a world of wisdom .
Also if its okay with you, can I tweet this line in my timeline? I would put the #shared tag so that people don’t think I had coined it or I can attribute your name/twitter handle in the tweet. Again, if its okay with you only.
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Apu
June 8, 2018
I am so happy that I decided to wait rather than reply immediately yesterday to Enigma. Thanks Sana, Anu, MANK, Madan, Kay and many others for calling out the problem in his comments.
Sanjana: “What arabs think of Indian women need not worry us. We are not here to please arabs or others. Just like what Indians think of western culture does not bother them. What is bothersome to our tourism industry is safety of both men and women visiting our country. When I step out, I am worried about stray dogs more than anything else. And also worried about robbers waiting to snatch my bag.”
Love it! It just clearly reflects my attitude at this point.
I do not drink or smoke, but other than health risks, I do not see why anyone else should not if they choose except if they are harming others (like alcoholism fueled domestic violence). And why it needs to be different for women.
Btw Enigma, the word you have forgotten is “parenting” – which means, both parents are equally responsible for shaping a child. Tell your kids that they are welcome.
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varshaganesh
June 8, 2018
I am so tempted to bring up concepts like polyamory, open marriages just to rile up people like Enigma and show that people happily live the way they want without worrying about ‘culture’ and ‘tradition’. Those who worry can uphold it themselves. Live and let live shouldn`t be so hard to understand.
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sai16vicky
June 8, 2018
I am quite surprised that some of Enigma’s comments actually crossed the moderation :). Like Anu says, I think its probably because he is being a polite misogynist. Not sure if this was posted already, but a case in point for the pathetic state of women in Saudi Arabia:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/26/world/middleeast/saudi-arabia-women-drive.html.
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Enigma
June 8, 2018
Dear All( Anu Warrier, shemz, sifter, Madan, Rahul, Kay, taranwarner), thank you all for your comments. I am simply overwhelmed, I don’t think that I will be able to answer all the valid points that you have raised. However, Just a couple of quick points.
Misogynist is a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women. I don’t think that I am that.
When I said ‘our women’, I did not claim ownership nor do I have a sense of entitlement. I keep hearing our women, our men, our children all the time. Even here people say our children should have playgrounds, our women should have better medical facilities etc. just examples. I used that term way.
I have always defended Indian women when men from other cultures passed any remark. Of course you wouldn’t have liked my argument (Indian women are conservative, what you see in the movies is all bullshit).
Contrary to your opinion, there is a trend in the liberal media to equate these practices with progress and modernity. I have seen this for quite sometime. Unfortunately, I do not remember specific instances.
I know that women are real people, not stones. Just that I hold Indian women to a higher standard. And yes, it is the responsibility of both men and women to preserve our culture.
You have all made great points, but I just don’t get you. I simply cannot understand your point of view. Forgive me if that did not come out right. I am not trying to be rude, just that we seem to be living in different worlds.
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Anuja Chandramouli
June 8, 2018
“A real man would treat a whore as a lady. A patriarchal mindset treats all women as whores unless they are devis – stone idols allowed no agency, no feelings, no emotions, no humanity”
Anu, that is so so beautiful!! I wanna put your words on my fave tee and never take it off!!
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Madan
June 8, 2018
@Enigma Part of the problem is the way the internet works. I don’t think I would agree with what you say if even we met in person but I do think it would be easier for me to see where you’re coming from and vice versa. On the internet, words like “our women” are just nuclear. And I don’t blame the ladies nor anybody else who stands up for them because they have to deal with this all the time. If I were to ask you to consider your words more carefully, I would be endorsing the current PC regime which I don’t. It’s all good, we can vehemently disagree and accept that our worldviews are way divergent on this issue to see eye to eye on this. One of the pre conditions for sustaining diversity is accepting that we cannot see eye to eye on everything and probably not on a lot of things. What matters is whether or not we choose to take the law into our hands or intrude on others’ lives in any other way. I respect that while you made intrusive propositions in your arguments, you did not however tell any of the participants directly that they ought to do this or that (if others think I missed something here, please feel free to correct me). I accept that there will always be conservative and liberal impulses in society and with the exception of particularly oppressive regimes like Saudi, that is usually the case in a vibrant society.
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brangan
June 8, 2018
To the commenter above who said they were surprised Enigma’s comments made it past moderation, I do not hold back comments unless they make personal attacks. Ideological differences, on the other hand, are par for the course — and the commenters have gone back and forth on it. There is no need for me to step in.
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bala
June 8, 2018
I think, from now onwards, schools should teach how to effectively participate in online discussions. The world needs it badly. Even when the conversations here have been mostly civil, it has been polarizing more often than not.
Like Richard Dawkins once mentioned about being militant atheists, most feminists here are being militant feminists. I think the arguments made by the militant feminists here are appealing only to may be 90% of feminists. They might be winning arguments here, but i believe are only hurting their own cause. And this has been the case with almost all topics in online discussions.
When somebody tried to say this earlier, it was called tone-policing. Not using profanity, and not using personal attacks is not just enough to effect a change in the other person’s view. I don’t know what it takes, but i believe it should start with empathy. I agree, of course, that some commenters here are qualified to teach the classes which i mentioned.
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Rahini David
June 8, 2018
Enigma: I have too much to say and what I am saying right now is only 10% of it.
Do movies quite often equate women having liquor ( which isn’t good for health ) and smoking ( which is terrible for health and environment ) to being chic, hip, modern etc.? Are short clothes equated to progress in a similar way?
Well yes.
But these things ARE progress. Why? Because of people like you. Because given half a chance you would have stopped as many female Indians from doing these things and you aren’t able to.
I know that progress is female doctors and female pilots and female scientists being trusted as much as their male counterparts. I know that progress is girls participating in Olympics and bring us the medals our country craves for.
Progress is women participating in art, music and cinema as never before. Progress is male homemakers not having to explain themselves. Progress is gay marriages being celebrated on par with heterosexual marriages.
But more than everything else FREEDOM is progress. FREEDOM to be unique. FREEDOM to blend in. FREEDOM to choose your religion. FREEDOM to marry or not. FREEDOM to experiment with your hair. FREEDOM to check out a dress that seems to have been clawed by a mad bald eagle. FREEDOM to find out what cigarette smoke really feels like. FREEDOM to tattoo the weirdest thing on your shoulder. FREEDOM to post your crazy thoughts on social media after having too much to drink. And most of all, the FREEDOM to be a silly stupid ass.
Oh and yes, not having to do all these things is freedom too, if we don’t have moral guardians breathing down our necks.
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You Know Who
June 8, 2018
What an absolutely brilliant thread!
Anuja Chandramouli, Anu Warrior, Rahini David, Madan – All your comments were such a pleasure to read!
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You Know Who
June 8, 2018
“But more than everything else FREEDOM is progress. FREEDOM to be unique. FREEDOM to blend in. FREEDOM to choose your religion. FREEDOM to marry or not.”
@Rahini – Hit the nail on the head!!
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Madan
June 8, 2018
@bala But I don’t think the issues at hand have anything to do with feminism here. The laws of the land do not make it a crime to smoke or drink. They also don’t make it a crime to wear short dresses. So even if women indulging in all of these things goes against the conservative ideal of how women should behave, the Indian Constitution itself has granted them that freedom and way back. The opposite of conservatism is NOT feminism. I don’t consider myself a feminist and I am not sure anymore that I conform to the current definition of liberal. If liberal means threatening writers not to write about characters of a race, gender or nationality other than their own, then I am certainly no liberal. But what does any of that have to do with freedom? I thought conservatives want freedom from the govt? But they want it only for men and not women, is that the case?
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Enigma
June 8, 2018
Madan, yes in a democracy we may sometimes have to agree to disagree while remaining civil. I do see a trend among the liberals, especially in social media, to trash conservative and traditional viewpoint as backward. The tone adopted by the liberals is terribly condescending. What we need is respect from both sides.
Rahini David, freedom is very important, I completely agree. But do we need no-holds-barred all out freedom to do anything that may lead to a breakdown of traditional values and society. I think there is a reason why we have traditions and social rules. I think we should have the freedom to question and maybe change some of them. So freedom yes, but within acceptable parameters.
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Apu
June 8, 2018
Enigma: I think we should have the freedom to question and maybe change some of them. So freedom yes, but within acceptable parameters.
But who determines “acceptable parameters”? And why is it that you have repeatedly mentioned that women need to conform to those parameters and not men? And that women are responsible for upholding those parameters and not men ?
I read your last comment that said that you did not understand anyone on this thread who are making counter arguments. Have you tried to think through the answers to the questions raised?
Also Bala: it would help if you could define “militant feminism” and point out some examples here. Yes, it might seem that some answers are strong, but that is because we have had practice. Multiple times. If you have never had to defend your choices just because you reached home without being pawed st in a bus when you were a teenager, good for you. Many of us did not have that luxury. So, when people start telling us that we should talk, dress, move in a certain way so that we remain unblemished and can uphold the supposedly golden bars of culture, we react strongly.
You probably will not understand, same as Enigma.
And I am not that patient. Not sorry.
Madan: just when I thought you made valid arguments, you said that “but I am not a feminist” line.
Rahini, Anu and others (too many good posters here): keep up the good fight!
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Madan
June 8, 2018
Apu: And in saying so, you have just demonstrated Bala’s point. Why is it important to you whether or not I am not a feminist? I find too much insistence on ideological purity in every ideology of all stripes. Therefore I refuse to identify with any one ideology since in any case I am more interested in upholding values that I see as indispensable for a democracy. I value liberty and equality and these values guide my positions. Rest, you can try to call me whatever you want and I will gladly offer a deaf ear. Whenever these discussions about ideology turn up, I remember Supertramp’s Logical Song. I heard it for the first time only in my late twenties but felt like I had known it for way longer and that the song was written for me. I suppose others in my predicament feel the same way.
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Enigma
June 8, 2018
Apu, I just cannot get my head around the fact that ‘certain practices’ are acceptable now and how these are somehow being considered as modern and progressive. I am worried that this may soon become the norm, widely accepted, common place, regular. I know that my ranting and raving will not make any difference. I only hope that soon there will be a trend favouring conservative values (like it is happening in Turkey).
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rsylviana
June 8, 2018
@Bala – Is militant feminism a euphemism for what is called femiNAZIsm ?!
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The Ghost Who Walks
June 8, 2018
“But more than everything else FREEDOM is progress. FREEDOM to be unique. FREEDOM to blend in. FREEDOM to choose your religion. FREEDOM to marry or not.”
Bravo!
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Rahini David
June 8, 2018
Bala: When I read the first comment by Enigma that I certainly did not agree with, I just thought of keeping away from reacting openly as it seemed too troll-ish. He has after that trying to be acting the well-meaning, gentle, nice old-fashioned mama who loves women and has to gently protect women from themselves. And it so happens that MANY of us are having a problem with his controlling militant views couched in old world niceness. At the end of it, It has come to look like we are ganging up on him and it does seem unfair. But the reason that so many of us are against his views is that his brand of patriarchy is actually a lot more damaging that any liquor or mini-skirt can ever be. It is this brand of patriarchy that gently asks women to magnanimously sacrifice every happiness for their family and also their ‘society’ and smile serenely at how good they are at specializing in self-sacrifice. It is this brand of diluted gentle serene patriarchy that holds women hostage to “honor”, “family name” and “reputation”. It is toxic and I, for one, have had my fill of it.
Before you ask “Is liquor happiness?” “Is tattoo happiness?” Let me tell you that not having my happiness defined for me is happiness. My happiness is deciding the direction of my life and not have well-meaning uncles do it for me.
BTW, What is this thing Dawkins said? If I am not very wrong Dawkins is as sick of the term “militant-atheism” which is basically plain atheism as I am of “militant-feminism” which of course is basically letting women be themselves.
Madan: Try to come out of the “I-think-exactly-like-a-feminist-in-pretty-much-every-I-say-about-women-but,-yuck,-I-am-not-one” mindset. Or at least explain what you think is that definitive difference between you and feminists.
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Sifter
June 8, 2018
@ Bala- …most feminists here are being militant feminist.
Please do continue to define how do we, as women have to behave or act when men hurl insults and profanity against us in general. Pass decrees against us. Tell us that we have to know our place as defined by men like you. Call us militant feminists when some women do have a few responses (surprise, surprise) against all the crap that is heaped upon us in topic after topic after topic. Maybe you’d like us if we remain quiet. Even if we do comment, just let the men like you here pat your own backs for those comments against women, be muted while you share a snigger or two with other men. While men like you just continue to do the prose equivalence of the completely misogynistic TASMAC-SONG-DANCE of Women bashing for all things you think is not right with this world.
And
…. I don’t know what it takes, but i believe it should start with empathy.
So women who try and respond logically and civilly here (or in the rest of the web-sphere) should show empathy towards men who continue to degrade, deplore, denigrate women. That is RICH!
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Madan
June 8, 2018
Rahini: Having spent considerable energy telling Enigma not to tell women what not to do, if you tell me how I ought not to think, then irony just died a thousand deaths. I have in another comment above explained exactly why I am not a feminist or any specific ist in particular. But I am not obliged to provide any explanation and have the right to adhere to a value system of my choosing without being coerced by anybody to follow their own. If you ask me where from I have derived this right, it is the same right that we have all been arguing with Enigma that women are entitled to My entire argument to bala was to show that it is incredibly reductive and unnecessary to club freedom for women under feminism when these freedoms are already guaranteed by the govt, so congratulations for completely missing the point.
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Enigma
June 8, 2018
Rahini David, I am no mama, 42 years old – not yet mama. And definitely not acting.
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Nevermind
June 8, 2018
Enigma: If I had not chosen to go anon for this comment, I would probably be politely asking you what those ‘certain practices’ are and why you think your idea of culture is worth preserving at the expense of those practices. But I really don’t have the time and patience any more. So take this from a MILITANT FEMINIST (yay!): We will consciously and deliberately destroy your patriarchal Indian (and Arabic, whatever) culture and gladly dance on its grave. It’s just not worth preserving. Deal with it.
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Rahini David
June 8, 2018
Madan, I am not asking you (or COERCING, good God) to subscribe to any value system and I am just pointing out the interesting point that you already HAVE subscribed to the value system in spite of not liking its label. To me it sounds like “Yes, I am 6 feet 3 inches but don’t call me tall”. Maybe it is more like “Don’t call me an Indian just because I was born here?” or “Don’t call me an Mumbaikar just because I live here?”. At least the difference between Atheists and Agnostics is reasonably clear to me.
But hey, I have noticed this attitude in BR, MANK, Punee etc too. So go ahead and be the non-ism human who just happens to have feminist thoughts. I, surely, am not asking you to jump into any yucky -isms.
Feminists As Madan is not obliged to explain anything to me, can one of you explain what “unnecessary to club freedom for women under feminism, when these freedoms are already guaranteed by the govt” mean? Maybe I have no idea what feminism means. Is there a creed or something?
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Sana
June 8, 2018
I have to agree that we attach too much importance to labels and that it is not necessary for someone to call him/herself a feminist in order to believe in gender equality – it could just be that they don’t believe in certain facets of how the movement has been conducted or don’t wish to align themselves so rigidly with one ideology while still approving wholeheartedly many of the good ideas behind.
I myself find it wearying to visit any feminist website or festival (here in the USA) because there is so little intersectionality and most of the discussion and press coverage today centres around the experiences and issues of a small group of very privileged, millennial, urban, college educated American women – there is so little opportunity to discuss the culturally specific issues I wrestle with, for instance. While I still do identify as a feminist (more so in India) I’m far less likely to emphatically proclaim this when I’m in the USA because I have many issues with the form the movement has taken here in the recent past and I don’t particularly admire many of the women who are held up/ forced on the public as champions of feminism in American pop culture today (it would take me thousands of words to put all of my discontents with post-2010, mainstream, neoliberal American feminism into words and I don’t feel the need to explain myself beyond this).
I appreciated Madan’s posts and I don’t think his not calling himself a feminist makes them any less valid. It’s too simplistic to reduce feminism to its core ideology alone and say that if you are for equality, you must be for the movement. It is a political movement after all and it is never as simplistic as merely representing one pure, undiluted ideal. That would be as absurd as insisting that any one who who cares about income inequality should absolutely call themselves a communist/ socialist because that’s what these movements are about.
It’s problematic if someone caricatures what feminism means or uses a strawman of a ‘Feminazi’ to derail discussion on important issues related to gender equality but if they are simply uncomfortable with adhering wholly to the political ideology of feminism, I see no need to take umbrage at all. At the same time, I completely disagree that someone on an online forum insisting someone else call himself feminist is the same as the moral police controlling women’s rights though, because as we all know the later problem is far more prevalent, historically and institutionally entrenched and damaging.
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Madan
June 8, 2018
Rahini: I will not speak for BR or MANK. Myself, I hold certain values dear and am interested in upholding them. It is not necessary that every ism will however uphold them in totality. For example, capitalism is unequal while socialism is anti freedom in several ways. In the same way, I do not feel that all the positions coming under the umbrella of feminism uphold liberty and equality. But if I were to state something that happens to not concur with the positions of a particularly doctrinaire feminist, I will receive a rebuke saying “you are no feminist”. So rather than commit to one ism and then be forced to live up to the expectations of the most hardline ideologues within the ism, I would rather stay out of it. And regarding freedoms being already protected by the govt, my point is there is no need to make it out as a fight between conservatives and feminists when all that is being discussed is a woman’s right to wear what she wishes to or drink or smoke. Rather, it is a fight between conservatives and everyone else or at least I should hope so. I was trying to thwart Bala’s attempt to turn it into an argument between two fringes but predictably was way misconstrued.
Lastly, no you didn’t just point out something, you told me to try to get out of a mindset that you presupposed I had and therefore I had to tell you to mind your distance. My choices are thought through and I stand by them; you can ask questions to clarify what they are but you can’t tell me to change them so you would find me more agreeable.
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Madan
June 8, 2018
@Sana Thank you for clarifying my position on isms better than I could have. Just want to add that by no means am I saying Rahini’s post to me amounted to moral policing but that I found it ironic that she exhibited essentially the kind of behaviour that she was opposing in a different context, of telling people what they should do.
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Anuja Chandramouli
June 8, 2018
‘I have to agree that we attach too much importance to labels and that it is not necessary for someone to call him/herself a feminist in order to believe in gender equality – it could just be that they don’t believe in certain facets of how the movement has been conducted or don’t wish to align themselves so rigidly with one ideology while still approving wholeheartedly many of the good ideas behind.’
Loving your comments Sana and couldn’t agree more.
‘ (it would take me thousands of words to put all of my discontents with post-2010, mainstream, neoliberal American feminism into words and I don’t feel the need to explain myself beyond this).’
If you were ever to use those words, I would love to read them.
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Anu Warrier
June 8, 2018
Madan, I understand where you’re coming from, and I appreciate that, but to my mind, you’re a feminist anyway. 🙂 The problem you face, and I wager many people who refuse to be labelled ‘feminist’ face is that the word means something pejorative. (Ex: Bala’s comment.) I agree with Sana’s comment, but yes, there’s a twinge I feel (and Rahini picked up on) when I hear ‘I’m not a feminist but… Forgive us for that – we need allies, more so ever than now.
Rahini – loved your responses, both to Enigma and Bala.
rsylvania – I’m not on Twitter, but feel free to poach that statement or any other. 🙂 Thank you for the appreciation.
Apu, Sifter, thanks for joining in the good fight.
Sana, once again – mad props! Glad you joined in.
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Rahini David
June 8, 2018
Sana and Madan: If I say some thing I believe in and some one says “then you are no feminist”, then I’d stick to my thought and refuse to be pushed out of the umbrella because any feminist said so. Similarly I can not push anyone into the umbrella either.
Yes, some articles from privileged women does want me to disagree emphatically. Here in BRs blog I have always taken the feminist stance, but at Indian home maker’s blog i routinely took the more conservative stance almost on par with enigma’s here due to my disagreement with revealing clothes which i already mentioned and not agreeing that joint family is always to the disadvantage of the daughter in law which it is not.
I am an Athiest and i quite often disliked hitchens’ attitude. He had good points but i preferred others like Dawkins. So what? I can not start believing in God because i didn’t want to be a hitchens fan. And if i dont believe in deities then i am an Athiest.
When a good 100% of what you say is feministic, there is a good chance you are a feminist. You may dislike the label with all your heart. But there you are.
I dont start each of my sentences with “I am a feminist and…” I remain true to my thoughts and other people told me I was a feminist. I looked up the definition and saw that they were right.
Sorry if you felt coerced and forced into labels. I did not think i was saying anything offensive. I just called a feminist, a feminist.
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sanjana
June 8, 2018
Feminism is just a word. One can interpret it according to one’s thought process. I am a feminist in the Indian context. For a man to be labelled as a feminist will be somewhat difficult, I think. Once we accept feminism, we can empathise with everything that it implies. Even the so called militant version of it. We need not become members of any creed or cult. Preserving culture has nothing to do with feminism if we understand the true meaning of culture. Culture also evolves with times. It is not stagnant like tradition. Something should not become a prison or ladies’ hostel rules. We unconsciously set rules for ourselves to follow. In the name of freedom, we are not going to go berserk. Freedom comes with responsibility and consequences. So one prepares for it in one’s own way.
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shemz
June 8, 2018
Why does it matter how We say it? It feels so intangible right? I myself have been told this so many times. ‘Its not what you said; but how you said it!’ It seems like an argument one would use to somehow invalidate the opponent when they could find nothing invalid in the content of the argument as such.
Also, there is the general opinion on the internet that women cry and make mountains out of molehills and jump down everyone’s throat when a dissenting opinion occurs, and I am tempted to reply with the Rachel Green Classic, ‘No Uterus; No opinion!’, but I do not want to alienate the millions of men fighting for the same cause. We are forgetting that there have been loads and loads of arguments in the fashion that would have been in ‘acceptable tone’ and still it got us no where. That has now fueled our passion for the cause and extreme passion can be a strong force.
It is also funny how some people lose steam when men are asked to be held to the same standards as women. Let me explain that. When well-meaning elders (oh not just uncles, aunties too) in the family, layout certain rules for women for whatever reasons – to uphold family values or ‘this-is-what-is-good-for-the-children’, just feel free to include the men in the family in it too! Some how the guardians of the rules are no more interested in the rules, once you insist that men in the family be held to the same. Would be fun to see where that goes and for how long the arguments will stay ‘Polite and acceptable’!
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Anu Warrier
June 8, 2018
Like Richard Dawkins once mentioned about being militant atheists, most feminists here are being militant feminists.
Bala, my friend, I think you’ve read Dawkins completely wrong if you interpreted it that way.
And militant feminists?! Because we pulled apart Enigma’s oh-so-sweet-patriarchy-under-the-guise-of-concern schtick?
Because we refuse to be told just how womanly we have to be and how we should be the gatekeepers of a culture? How the onus is on us to dress, talk, behave so this homogenous ‘culture’ doesn’t collapse?
Because we are blamed for provoking sexual assault as well as being the reason that the ‘cultureless’ men attack us?
You bet we are militantly against that bull shit.
But oh, how convenient to reduce us to ‘militant feminists’ and thus invalidate our choices, our freedoms, our words. How easy it is to dismiss what we stand for and what we fight for – not something more than men, just to be on equal footing to them.
I think the arguments made by the militant feminists here are appealing only to may be 90% of feminists.
Sure. They definitely aren’t going to appeal to you because you’ve already reduced our disagreements to a phrase that dismisses our concerns. You don’t understand, or want to understand, where this disagreement is coming from. It is easier to say, ‘militant feminist’ or ‘femiNazi’ (for short) – and that takes the onus of the men to behave well, and puts it on the women to behave the way men would like women to behave.
Not using profanity, and not using personal attacks is not just enough to effect a change in the other person’s view. I don’t know what it takes, but i believe it should start with empathy.
The irony is rich in this one. How about you show us some empathy, huh? In topic after topic after topic on this board itself, women have been dismissed – sometimes hurtfully – for disagreeing with the misogynistic opinions expressed here. Your ‘militant feminist’ is just the latest in a long line of opprobrium that has been heaped on our heads. Mostly, it’s a strawman argument used by both men and women when they want to denigrate opinions on gender equality that they don’t want to hear. As Sana says above, the use of that term derails discussions very effectively.
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brangan
June 8, 2018
I think many of us are — in fact — feminists in the broad sense, in that we bat for equality. It’s just that, at least in my case, because I haven’t read up so much about the movement, I’m hesitant to call myself one. I wonder if there are clauses and sub-clauses, and then it’s too much and just easier to say “I bat for equality” rather than “feminist.”
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Anu Warrier
June 8, 2018
And entering the ‘feminism label’ fray – for women (and men) who disclaim ‘I’m not a feminist but…’
If you believe in equality for all, you are a feminist.
If you believe in gender parity, you are a feminist.
If you stand up for women’s right to freedom of choice, you’re a feminist. (And that choice can be to be as traditional as they want.)
It doesn’t matter if you accept the label or not. I’m not talking about political ideology here; I’m talking the core concept of feminism.
And a PSA to all women who feel they have to distance themselves from being a feminist even when they believe in equal rights: The reason you can today stand up and say ‘I’m not a feminist but…’ is because generations of women before you proudly wore the label of feminist and fought for your right to say that. Think about it before you dismiss your sisters.
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Anu Warrier
June 8, 2018
@Anuja, I laughed. Out loud. 🙂 Thank you.
it would take me thousands of words to put all of my discontents with post-2010, mainstream, neoliberal American feminism into words and I don’t feel the need to explain myself beyond this
Sana, let me echo Anuja – if you ever did, I would love to read it. I don’t know whereabouts in the US you are, but you’re ever in the Boston area, I would love to catch up with you over a tipple of your choice.
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Madan
June 8, 2018
@Anu Warrier: I understand and empathise. And I take it as a very exalted compliment if a woman tells me I am a feminist even if I say I am not. So I definitely do not think of it as a pejorative. It has more to do with an obsessive distrust of ideologies that began with the meltdown. I was deeply disillusioned with capitalism as a new entrant to the workforce who at that point had the normal material aspirations of a typical fresher out of college. I don’t think anybody could ever get me to commit to an ism ever again no matter what.
@Rahini: It is a little more difficult for a man to dig in his heels if he is called out as not as a feminist by a woman. 🙂 So it’s not a fight worth fighting. I don’t have to be a feminist to be on your side in this battle. Nor does any man imo. Just thinking about and empathising with every female kith and kin, friends and acquaintances and whether you would yourself like the shackles you want to place on them ought to suffice.
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Anu Warrier
June 8, 2018
I only hope that soon there will be a trend favouring conservative values (like it is happening in Turkey).
Head to desk It is interesting that such ‘trends’ always focus on women. Women being more conservative; women being more traditional. Women being shackled by age-old prejudices under the guise of ‘culture’.
You said you were living in a different world. I wish there was a time machine that could send you back to when this was the norm. Your views, however you couch them, are deeply regressive, repressively anti-woman, and overwhelmingly patriarchal. Concern for some foregone culture aside, it is interesting to note that every single comment of yours regarding the upholding of traditional values puts its onus on women to behave in a certain way.
So [to Bala], excuse us for being militant in our opposition to this sort of tosh. Sorry. Not sorry.
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Anu Warrier
June 8, 2018
Just thinking about and empathising with every female kith and kin, friends and acquaintances and whether you would yourself like the shackles you want to place on them ought to suffice.
But Madan dear, that is the very essence of feminism. 🙂
I understand where you’re coming from, though, in your dislike of ideology. Like Sana said above, I give a damn about whether someone identifies themselves as ‘feminist’ as long as they stand up when it matters.
Funnily enough, the most ‘traditional’ man I knew – my grandfather – was also the most progressive. He batted for his widowed daughter-in-law’s remarriage when her own father was against it; he was the man who made all the snacks in the house (my grandmother couldn’t cook for toffee); he didn’t blink an eye at any of us going out of the house in midi-skirts or sleeveless tops (recognising that our dress had nothing to do with our values); welcomed our friends, male or female, and interacted with them as peers; he was open to learning new things until the day he died, and despite only a high-school education, valued education for his children and grandchildren and took vicarious pride in our accomplishments – whether it was for academics or sports or cultural activities.
He taught me that being religious and traditional had nothing to do with having a broad, progressive mindset. One could be both. He taught us to take the best of what our traditions have to offer us and to reject its more regressive norms; he taught us that ‘tradition’ is what we make of it, not a static monolith we had to genuflect to; that values and respect for each other was more important than a rigid adherence to any -ism. (You would have loved him, Madan. 🙂 )
He was a feminist, a label he wore with laughing pride (when we teased him about it).
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Madan
June 8, 2018
Oh no he didn’t! Turkey, noooo! Then again, since he is fond of the Gulf, maybe I shouldn’t be surprised. I take back my previous agree to disagree truce comment to him and its place, excuse me while I say, “U MAD BRUH?” Call me condescending, snobbish, ivory tower, liberal whatever be your definition of pejorative. I don’t care. This crosses the line. I swear he will make Gandhi wish he had never supported the Khilafat movement.
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Madan
June 8, 2018
@Anu Warrier: That was wonderful and touching. He reminds me of my own grandfather in many ways. My grandfather was a physics prof at Indian School of Mines but knew Sanskrit to a scholarly level and faithfully recited shlokas everyday. He fought opposition from his own brother among others to allow his daughter (my aunt) to marry a Sindhi man whom she had fallen in love with on campus at BHU. I never heard one remotely bigoted word from him at any time. If I were to guess, your grandfather too was probably old enough to have witnessed 1947. So in all likelihood the two would have got along. Fighting back tears as I write. I lost him a couple of years back and reading about your grandfather brings the memories rushing back.
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bala
June 8, 2018
Wow!!! Talk about being misunderstood!
I didn’t mean to use “Militant feminist” as a pejorative. I meant it in the same way as Dawkins mentions “Militant atheism” in this video.
I agree with all the points of everyone talking for equality. All of them are valid.
My only concern was, when a discussion becomes polarising, it is difficult for people to switch sides. And, I believe, the goal of people participating in such discussions is to influence the readers/participants. But when the discussion becomes polarising, the purpose is defeated.
As far as my beliefs in this topic (which i don’t have to explain, but i will), i believe woman should have equal rights in everything (including dress) and equal opportunities. In safe neighborhoods, i will not discourage my daughter to wear any dress she wants, and in unsafe places, only if she thinks its her mission to change the world. Believe me, I want a world were women could go out whenever they want wearing whatever they want.
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Rahul
June 8, 2018
Over the course of many discussions I have had some disagreements with Madan and this is another one of them.
Understand your subtext ( dont want to ascribe to other stuff under the umbrella) . But you can BE a feminist with the same disclaimer.
Feminism is a movement that is sorely needed specially in our sorry part of the world. Like Sana I also disagree on many things with not just Western but Indian feminists as well (For example clack of raising issues of Dalit women in context of Indian feminism) but this is a label ill embrace any day – just because
2.I want to stand with my fellow feminists in solidarity every time this word is used as a pejorative.
Of course this comes with the usual disclaimers of respecting your opinion( I don’t mean it perfunctorily , I do understand where you and BR are coming from) .
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bala
June 8, 2018
To clarify again, i said in my original comment, “schools should teach how to effectively participate in online discussions”. I didn’t say anybody is wrong, i just meant participants are ineffective. May be there are reasons, and may be it is effective and i am wrong, but i didn’t mean to shut anyone.
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Anu Warrier
June 8, 2018
Madan, I miss my grandfather every day. He died nearly 18 years ago. And he was 83 when he passed, so yes, he lived through 1947. I miss his wisdom, his compassion, his love – no, his respect – for the earth (he had a green thumb) and the life lessons he taught me just by being himself. We didn’t get any lectures on modesty or ‘what girls should be like’ or even on culture and tradition. He lived his principles, and we imbibed them through osmosis as it were.
Our home in Kerala was an open house – people from every religion, caste, economic strata, came, ate, and mingled. I don’t remember ‘caste’ being invoked at home. (Should also credit my maternal great-grandfather, a doctor, for that ‘culture’.) In fact, I don’t remember any stringent restrictions being laid on us – apart from personal discipline, and that cut right across the board, across generations and genders. I don’t remember him going to the temple very often, but every morning, I woke up to the sight of him lighting the oil lamp in our little alcove at home, praying silently before going to the fields. It was with him that I could discuss my growing atheism (at the time) and not feel rejected, or worse, dismissed. He taught me to cook traditional recipes, and tasted everything my sister, cousin and I made. Even if he wasn’t a great fan of some of the dishes we tried out.
He watched TV with us – regional films of which he didn’t understand one word but he could give you a keenly critical analysis of the core of the film. (We must have been the only household where The Blue Lagoon was watched as a family film – with my grandparents, parents, aunts and uncles, cousins and siblings.)
He was a warm and comforting presence in our lives – solid and supportive, and now you’ve made me cry just thinking about him.
Ah, well. 🙂
@Bala – your post didn’t come off the way you intended, as you can see from various responses. For not ‘getting it’ – I apologise.
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Rahini David
June 8, 2018
Bala: It is a long video. Could you point the minute from which we can listen to this point about militant Athiesm? I have already understood your point. You are saying an argument should allow for that small bridge with which allows a person with opposing POV to move over to our own without too much loss of face. That we should not burn that bridge and expect a sort of change of heart.
Theoretically, I agree.
Practically, this does not happen often enough. We will discuss this in another thread. I will open one soon.
This has been a great discussion. Thanks All.
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Madan
June 8, 2018
@ Rahul: Fair comment and the respect is mutual. I do respect YOUR reasons to identify as a feminist. Personally, I am still of the view that identifying oneself with a particular ideology is really not necessary in a discussion and, where there are conflicting views, has the effect of polarising it. What is more important is the positions themselves that are laid out in a discussion. In this and other discussions on similar topics, I have formulated my positions based on the principles of liberty and equality. Speaking of which, equality by itself imo is a much wider basket that encompasses feminism in it. I don’t want equality for only women but also for Dalits, Muslims and every community in India that faces oppression of some sort. I feel that as long as I am true to these values, whether or not I call myself a feminist doesn’t matter. It also did not come in the way of standing by the women in arguing against Enigma in this discussion so no problems with 1 and 2.
Now, upon reflection, what really caused the problem this time is that I made a statement that I am NOT a feminist. I don’t normally make this statement in any discussion because, again, I avoid discussion of an ism. But here I made it in the course of formulating an argument as to why it isn’t just feminists, or rather militant feminists to use Bala’s term, who are arguing for freedom for women in this discussion. I see now that Bala in fact does share my positions on this subject but the way he framed it in his original post gave the impression that it was a battle between militant feminists on the one side and everybody else on the other when really it is conservatives versus everybody else. It is in that context that I said, “Hey, now I am not a feminist and I still do not agree with Enigma at all”. I can see why it evoked a reaction but I would only urge people to read the full comment and the statement in its context.
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Bala
June 8, 2018
Phew, thanks Rahini, that’s exactly my point.
At around 5 minutes in to the video , he uses the words militant atheism. But immediately concedes that the term sounds negative . But I feel one should watch the entire video to get his point. The gist i feel is, religion is corrosive to science, and hence atheists/agnostics should not be nice to religion.
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Apu
June 9, 2018
Enigma: “Apu, I just cannot get my head around the fact that ‘certain practices’ are acceptable now and how these are somehow being considered as modern and progressive.”
fair enough. But you are repeatedly saying that those “certain practices” are problematic only when it comes to women. You have never said that you find smoking/drinking/premarital sex/wearing “western” clothes problematic for men. That is what my problem is 🙂 – short and simple.
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Apu
June 9, 2018
Madan: “Why is it important to you whether or not I am not a feminist?”
I believe that “I am not a feminist” made me react because I have heard it from so many others (women included) as if it is a disease or a pejorative label. So, it probably makes me react with “oh yeah” almost every time. It is automatic :(. Also because I have heard it from mostly privileged women who got there due to the fight put in by previous feminists for basic rights to vote and be seen outside the home. In fact, Kareena Kapoor said the same in an interview about Veere de Wedding.
I will just echo Anu’s comment here: “there’s a twinge I feel (and Rahini picked up on) when I hear ‘I’m not a feminist but… Forgive us for that – we need allies, more so ever than now.”
I hope that clarifies my stance.
Every rights movement seem to be rubbing some people in a wrong way as they feel excluded. And yes, the feminist movement might be (as I do not stay in India now) guilty in India of excluding Dalit women. But I feel we have to bring them in – not my denouncing the movement, but extending it.
Ok, armchair activist alert.
Sifter/Shemz: Good answers!
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San
June 9, 2018
I can empathise with BR about being hesitant to identify as a feminist when we don’t know exactly what it entitles and how it will be interpreted by everyone.
But I feel its better we identify as a feminist and specify what feminism means for us.
That way, we are clear about our stand and also promote a movement which is very necessary in our world today.
When this discussion comes up in my social circle, I usually say something like this,
“I am a feminist if it means I believe in equality for all, gender parity and freedom of choice.”
Additionally, this also reiterates the proper meaning and drives the movement in a positive direction. (atleast in a teeny-tiny way)
I strongly feel that maintaining a distance from the movement or shunning away from the label is not the way to go. It undermines the genuine effort put in by many to bring positive change in the society.
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San
June 9, 2018
@Enigma, I respect your comments and I understand where you come from.
I have few genuine doubts to ask you.
You said, “I would like to mention here that my wife does not work nor do I expect her to. She does the more important job of teaching the kids, driving them to school and to classes, cooking for the family and taking care of the children’s needs. Entirely her choice and I did not force her.”
I totally respect your wife’s decision. I know how difficult it is to run a home.
But my question is, what if your wife had wanted to work? Would you have supported it?
What if she loves her career and gets immense satisfaction from it? And earns more than you? Would you be proud of her?
What if she does not have enough time to be the saviour and propagate “tradition” to your children? What if she can’t pick up and drop your children at all times? Would you chip in and share responsibilities with her?
If some people in your family say that she is not being a good mother, would you feel offended and ask her to change? Or would you stand up for her?
If yes is your answer to all these questions, then you believe that men and women are equally capable to perform any kind of work. You believe that they should have the freedom to pursue their career, have their own life.
Then why do you feel it is a woman’s responsibility alone to preserve “traditions” and pass it on to the next generation? Why should she bother and worry about what some random men think about her? (Don’t you think it’s a problem with them?)
Why do you feel that women should adhere to a fixed template (indian womanhood as you said), when each woman is so different from another?
Don’t you think they should live life the way they want to?
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Enigma
June 9, 2018
Full on liberal fascism. Why can’t I desire a conservative Indian society? That is what like. People need not be rude, holier than thou, condescending just because someone has a different worldview.
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Somya
June 9, 2018
@Enigma – Why can’t I desire a conservative Indian society?
You certainly can and have every right to voice your views. However the women you expect to take charge of carrying out these changes must want the same thing. A conservative society cannot be created by transferring the responsibility for it onto someone who does not desire it in the first place.
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rsylviana
June 9, 2018
Guess some people don’t like a taste of their own medicine huh?!! Interesting….
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Enigma
June 9, 2018
San, thank you for your kind comments. My answer is yes to all your questions. My experience is that I have always found women to be better., in studies, conduct. So I cannot associate women with that kind of behaviour. Having said that, I don’t condone men smoking, drinking or committing adultery or abandoning traditions. Just that a woman’s ‘fall’ will be more devastating for the family.
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Anuja Chandramouli
June 9, 2018
“Just that a woman’s ‘fall’ will be more devastating for the family.”
Enigma: Are you aware that this kind of thinking is the reason dis’honour’ killings happen? That girls are butchered because they dared marry for love? That rape victims kill themselves because they have been conditioned to think that their shame will be ‘devastating for the family.’? That terms like ‘fallen woman’, ‘loose woman’, ‘promiscuous’, ‘witch’, ‘bitch’ make the moronic in the male species feel free to treat victims as they see fit? I could go on but why bother?
It seems to me that you are being deliberately incendiary just to grab a few more eyeballs. Even in the Kaala thread you seemed eager to fan the flames of caste based hatred (this continued obsession with caste is the only truly disgraceful thing about being Indian imo). That would make you a shock jock and those are best ignored.
So much for my philosophical, zen approach when a thread has caught fire. Damn it!
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Enigma
June 9, 2018
Anuja Chandramouli, in the ‘Kaala’ thread I’ve talked about reconciliation. I quoted the Australian example where the government apologised to the indigenous people. Read my last post there.
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Madan
June 9, 2018
“I strongly feel that maintaining a distance from the movement or shunning away from the label is not the way to go. It undermines the genuine effort put in by many to bring positive change in the society.” – In what way though? I would like to see some concrete examples explaining how not calling oneself a feminist but generally associating with feminist causes to the existence they are not in conflict with one’s own values ‘undermines’ the efforts of those who are quite happy to wear that label on their sleeve. I signed up for Iswarya’s petition. I was happy to see Weinstein among others brought to book. I am sorry but this sounds more like a reaction to the polarised discourse of our times, the ‘kill’ mentality on both left and right. There is a need nowadays to constantly know ‘whether you are with us or against us’ to reprise the infamous Dubya phrase. I will try my darndest to stay out of the echo chambers because I think they are unhealthy. You may disagree of course and that is your prerogative.
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Prashila
June 9, 2018
So I cannot associate women with that kind of behaviour. Having said that, I don’t condone men smoking, drinking or committing adultery or abandoning traditions. Just that a woman’s ‘fall’ will be more devastating for the family.
I am from Goa, the unofficial ‘debauchery’ capital of this country. Not many people probably remember that Goa was once home to a decent sized red light area which was demolished in the mid 2000s and all the hapless women apparently were ‘rehabilitated’. But more on them some other time, I grew up close to this RLA. And some of my most daunting memories of childhood are the frequent occurrences of deaths of many young men after having succumbed to AIDS . And many of these men and their families were all our acquaintances so the shock was always raw. One family lost ALL 4 of their young adult sons to this disease. I cannot imagine what the mother (and the father too) must have felt right after the moment the last son was dead. THIS is how families are devastated. Parents (and NOT just the mother) of course have the responsibility of making sure they imbue the right upbringing for their children and prepare them to be good, responsible and empathetic human beings who respect everyone’s right to freedom. But then every grown human being is finally responsible for what they do of their life. And so bringing it all down to a woman’s virtue is bizarre.
Enigma, I admire the demeanor in which you have expressed yourselves am certainly not writing this to influence what you think (though I do find it amusing and rich that someone who has ‘run’ away from this country and clutureis holding such strong views on what those of us who have chosen to live here, should be doing). But I am beginning to agree with the second to last para of Anuja’s last comment. Maybe that is all it really is.
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Madan
June 9, 2018
“People need not be rude, holier than thou, condescending just because someone has a different worldview.” – But they may be all those things if someone is misinformed. You desire that India should become another Turkey? This at a time when the saffron dragons are already breathing fire. Exactly how did you expect people to be sympathetic to the desire to have an Erdogan for India? You will protest that you don’t want that, just a conservative society but it’s all part of the package. It is no coincidence that democracy flowered alongside the rise of liberalism. Actually you are right. When you have a full on conservative society whether not only ‘your’ women but you too have to surrender all your freedoms to a totalitarian government is when you will grasp the full import of what it means to be conservative. You are floating in a comfortable neverland where you earn in Aussie dollars, most likely wear Western attire to work and dress up Indian when you visit temples. You won’t have that discretion in a conservative society. Your place in the pecking order will also be decided by somebody from the top and not by your own efforts and enterprise. You profit immensely from liberalism but are blissfully unaware of it. It is time to share your privilege with women too because they are also humans and equal citizens of the republic.
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Madan
June 9, 2018
Apu: Fair enough but re privileged women saying I am not a feminist, well, I am ‘just’ a privileged man. I have heard many women say no man can possibly be a feminist. To some extent, I agree as well. To put it another way, I can be United States rushing in airplanes to help Churchill stave off Germany. But I can never be an Englishman, I will always be on the outside but hopefully stand up and be counted in times of need.
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Enigma
June 9, 2018
Prashila, thank you for your comments. Agree with your sentiments that parents are responsible in imbibing the right values in their children.
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Enigma
June 9, 2018
Madan, you have made some interesting points there. I wouldn’t want conservative values to be imposed but people embracing traditional values voluntarily. The reason I referenced Turkey was because after years of militant secularism there was a return to traditional values (Erdogan is an elected leader). I certainly do not want women to be denied freedom.
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Anu Warrier
June 9, 2018
I have always defended Indian women when men from other cultures passed any remark. Of course you wouldn’t have liked my argument (Indian women are conservative, what you see in the movies is all bullshit).
No. That is not ‘defence of Indian women’. That’s being defensive on their behalf. Defending them would have meant asking those Middle Eastern friends of yours to stop talking bullshit about your countrywomen. That they have no clue what ‘Indian women’ are like, and that no woman is ‘easy’ by virtue of being seen from a male perspective. Perhaps that they should stop worrying about ‘your’ women and worry about themselves?
Full on liberal fascism.
Ah, the mask has come off, hasn’t it? The name calling is who you are, in reality. All your ‘apologies’ for calling women ‘sluts’ was just lip service. You actually did mean that. That’s the way you think. You just pretended otherwise because people called you out on it.
Re: ‘liberal fascism’ – That’s the go-to defence of someone who cannot understand that they may have a right to a regressive opinion but that others have an equal right to disagree with it. And to call you out on it.
The thing about most liberals is that we are fine with individuals who want to remain conservative in their personal lives. We agree it’s their choice. We are just not fine with having that choice imposed upon us. You see, it might surprise you, but the concept of ‘choice’ means I get to choose what sort of a worldview I want to have.
Why can’t I desire a conservative Indian society?
Oh, you can. You can desire anything your little heart wants. We ‘liberal fascists’ are just intrigued by the idea that this ‘conservative Indian society’ applies only to women.
Also, the irony of someone who has escaped Indian society – liberal or conservative – to a more progressive, permissive society but still wants to keep women (and only women) in his birth country submissive and ‘traditional’ is too rich to just ignore.
People need not be rude, holier than thou, condescending just because someone has a different worldview.
No, we are not being rude or holier than thou and we were certainly not condescending to you – we were outright calling you out (politely so far) for a worldview that imposes your particular brand of patriarchy and conservatism on half of the world’s population. Or at least those who live in India. (Again, the irony of someone who lives in Sydney wanting Indian women in India to behave a certain way does not escape me, even if it does you.)
You, on the other hand, are the only person on this thread who has resorted to name calling.
Just that a woman’s ‘fall’ will be more devastating for the family.
This is the sort of worldview that punishes women for their supposed ‘transgressions’. This is the worldview that blames women for being raped, or for falling in love with someone from a different caste, or kills them because they brought ‘dishonour’ to the family.
At this point, I’m done – I don’t respect your worldview. I don’t agree with it. And if that makes me a ‘liberal fascist’ in your opinion, I’ll wear that label too – along with ‘progressive’, ‘feminist’, heck, even ‘slut’ – with pride. Gah!
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Sev
June 9, 2018
Just wanted to give a shout out to Madan(?) who loves Rafi. I am a Rafi buff too, so great to see you here.
Another pointer to the poster who appeared incredulous at my words of praise for Rajiv Rai’s movies/ Well, mate, Rajiv’s movies in the 80s like Tridev were the stuff my dreams are made of 🙂 Except for Naseer, I liked pretty much everything about his movies back then (he only made about 2 good movies before being forced to retire).
And to Enigma: I appreciate his being honest about his perspective, and really, humans are irrational people (including myself). The fact that he longs for an older way of being and presenting oneself (often called “culture”) doesn’t make him any less of a person or worthy of respect. And I say this as a woman who now lives in the West, wears whatever I like (but my wardrobe and other choice have always been unobtrusive, not because I was forced such choices, but because they are part of my personality). I disagree with his views but I do think he appears respectful of women. So, in the name of standing up for wronged women, and supporting a certain way of being, let us not deride someone who is of a different, equally acceptable set of values.
BTW in ancient India, didn’t both men and women go around pretty much topless? So maybe all would blend in and there’d be no shock element.
PS: I do think there are various definitions of “culture” as we feel /experience it, and everyone is free to follow their paths. Lets bring this back to discussing what godawful an actress (and entitled brats) the women in this movie appear to be 🙂
BTW I too find this forced use of hindi, urdu or English cuss words by women trying to be in with the times so annoying. It feels like they want to pick up all the loathesome habits of their male counterparts in movies. This one movie definitely makes me want to be transported into a world where Mere Mehboob was the latest release 🙂 Sigh! the charms I imagine that world to possess 😀
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Rahul
June 9, 2018
“Full on liberal fascism. Why can’t I desire a conservative Indian society? ”
Enigma bro, You still have not answered why you are joining these liberal fascists and want to impose Australian values on India and not let me and my upper caste brethren oppress the Dalits. Did I hurt your feelings in any way ? Me and you should join together to save Indian society from these liberal fascists one blog post at a time on wordpress dot com.
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Enigma
June 10, 2018
“Ah, the mask has come off, hasn’t it? The name calling is who you are, in reality.”
Anu Warrier, I am afraid I am not wearing a mask. Didn’t realize that ‘liberal fascism’ could be construed as ‘name calling’.
I maybe living in Sydney but I lead a very conservative Indian lifestyle. The only ‘aussie’ thing that I do is going trekking in the national parks. I don’t drink, smoke, go to pubs, hang out with other women (not that aussies do that) etc.
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Enigma
June 10, 2018
Rahul, I understand that you are being sarcastic. There are many good things that we should learn from Australia. One of them being their commitment to reconciliation with the indigenous people. Thy are very passionate about environmental protection, sustainable energy. They also respect other cultures – I have gone out for lunch with my colleagues where they drink, but they don’t call me backward or regressive for not drinking. So to answer your question, I definitely don’t support suppression of the Dalits, minorities or anyone else.
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Enigma
June 10, 2018
Sev, appreciate your comments.
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Madan
June 10, 2018
” I wouldn’t want conservative values to be imposed but people embracing traditional values voluntarily.” – Hmm, what people embrace voluntarily is their own prerogative so I would have no objection if they do embrace traditional values voluntarily. Just as I have none if they embrace modernity voluntarily. Your grouse, if I put this together with your earlier blaming Bollywood as a bad influence, is more that traditional attire is no longer seen as desirable (in your opinion). I would say this is not necessarily true. But say in Mumbai, getting out in a kurta-pyjama or sari in the rains is a hazardous endeavour and one very likely to soil a beautiful and expensive dress. So people have resorted to wearing them only on special occasions like wedding functions etc. One of my acquaintances (er, she is much older than me and has a daughter studying in college now) works for the UN and she was recently invited to appear at THE UN office in New York for an event and she chose to appear in a sari. I would say today’s Indian women are flexible with what they wear in the same way as I listen to Indian and Western music interchangeably. It is not a bad thing in essence.
Coming to drinking, I know of cases where women who got drunk at an office party and then got groped and were also probably too drunk to be fully aware of what was happening. But I would fix the responsibility for this on individuals who get drunk and not distinguish between genders. Men who get drunk are also a pain in the whatever; I know because at a recent office get together three such men had to be escorted into their cars because they were so far gone. While drinking is fine, I think people who get ‘drunk’ in the sense of getting sozzled are a safety hazard to themselves and to everyone around them, especially if they get behind a steering wheel. I would whole heartedly support regulation to limit the number of drinks that can be served to a single customer at a bar. I know people will protest it will take the ‘joy’ out of drinking but when a humble cabbie and his son lost their lives because a drunk person (coincidentally a woman) got on the wrong side of the Eastern Freeway in Mumbai at 150 kph and rammed the car headfirst into theirs, I think the risk of this ‘joy’ is too high to bear for civilised society. If you love losing your faculties through drinking, go right ahead…within the four walls of your home. Don’t break cutlery and furniture at somebody’s establishment and definitely don’t drive when drunk.
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Madan
June 10, 2018
“I have gone out for lunch with my colleagues where they drink, but they don’t call me backward or regressive for not drinking. ” – Care to mention when somebody in India called you backward or regressive for not drinking? You may be thought of as not very cool/boring for those things but backward/regressive? Assailing a strawman, much?
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Rahul
June 10, 2018
Ok Enigma bro, proud of you for figuring out that I was being sarcastic.
Bear with me for some more time and help me figure this out too – you say – ” I definitely don’t support suppression of the Dalits, minorities or anyone else.”
But you were also bemoaning people not following their culture. Is oppression of Dalits not our culture ? If you get a warm fuzzy feeling seeing women dressed like tents I get a warm fuzzy feeling out of ordering around Dalits. Why is it that you bemoan loss of culture in one case and in the other case you are keen to learn from Aussies and put me down?
Is it because your shit smells like rose petals and my shit is regular shit? Or is it because you are just using culture as an excuse to pedal your own shit? I can’t figure out this shit.
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Sev
June 10, 2018
Madan, that last remark was, well, remarkable. Clear and cutting out all the fat to distil Enigma’s argument to its essence. Love it and completely concur with your remark.
As I get older, I too have gotten a bit “soft” that is, less willing to see offence and developed a softer-spot for certain past practices, clothes, TV shows, movies etc. that remind me of my childhood years as well as my older family. Nostalgia, I guess, is a disease of the older 🙂
I find myself watching urdu TV shows, not just because they are more suited to my tastes as a viewer, but because of their outfits. I love seeing the men in kurta-pajamas, and women in shalwar kameezes, and in the romantic shows, the leads mouthing romantic, poetic dialogues (likely because showing physical intimacy is not acceptable in those cultures). It is the same reason why I love 40s Hwood movies as well. At most, you had a slight kiss, and yet, what a fiery lovestory Casablanca was! In the same vein, I love how smaller towns were so, well, distincitive in their layout and feel. Now, they all seem to be mini-cities with the same types of architecture, shopping malls, etc. So, really, through my tastes in music, movies, clothes, etc, I am revealing a longing for a part-real-part-imagined past, which appears to be what most romantics desire 🙂 I find, in a way, that Engima is, at least, of the same mindset. When we imagine an ideal, lost world of yore, we do not (as humans) see its warts. When I see the initial reels of Masoom (an 80s movie), I see the open tropical home of Nasser, the wide, traffic-free roads, the 10-5 jobs, the lifestyle etc. I do not see the fact that you had to rely on snail mail to get your messages across to people from outside of town, or use clunky, expensive phone services. Or that, cars were not that great in their make. Or that, air-conditioning was probably a challenge. Or that women who weren’t married by a certain age (like myself) were likely faced with unwelcome, intrusive remarks etc.
All of these choices are made by a free individual (at least, as free as a human can be). They have been shaped by environmental influences, of course, and one’s innate proclivities. But I hope these choices are not seen as regressive. That is my problem with movies like VDW. It appears to peddle a certain way of life as cool. By comparison, a movie like Vivaah seemed too happy in extolling the virtues of a certain way of being (rather than bringing another way of being down). It was, less opinionated and softer in its tone. VDW is too, well, try-hard, I guess. It does not help that I find talking about sex too private, gross and crass (its on the same level as talking about defecation or other bodily functions). I recognize the importance of sex, but then so is defecation (esp on a daily basis). So if I get grossed out by discussions of one’s daily bowel movements, its ok, but when the same holds true of sex talk, I am a prude? I don’t get this type of labelling. Even with my friends, I feel the same way and find these kind of bodily function related talk unseemly unless there was a real disease, potential disease situation.
And the cussing is so crude and wannabe as well (regardless of the language used).
Anyhow, thanks for letting me share my views.
Brangan, your posts are amazing but for movies like these (with performers I do not care for), ever so often, I find myself wanting you to bare your claws and be catty. Do you think you’d oblige one of these days? 🙂
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Sev
June 10, 2018
Just for the record (in case things are assumed about me): I do want a free society; I do want women and men to have the freedom to choose if they want to be together, how to define that togetherness, when to end that togetherness, for women to have a slightly higher say in whether to abort a foetus (simply because it is their body that has to go through the wearying experience of child-bearing), for women to have right to safe abortions, prophylactics, sex-education, etc.
But I would still advise (if asked) someone I cared about to not get with someone just because they think there will be no other, or that being with someone for the sake of it is a bad idea, having sex for the sake of fitting in with your peers is disrespectful towards yourself, etc.
Similarly, I do not see religiousity is problematic or the lack of it. It is really, who you are. Some people find religiousity/a faith in divinity along the way, and it anchors them. For others, it might seem an affectation and even, oppressive. It is all about what you want. But at the same time, I hope I am not so sure of myself to think that through my idea of “liberal, free, just” all of the world’s problems will be solved, esp as “icons of liberal values” get clumsy and accidentally reveal their darker side (fill in any example from recent times from the eastern or western world).
Basically, what I have come to realize is that the most important thing to me is to be a good human being and to be an authentic human being. If you achieve that by believing that you as a male need to be the guardian of your women, I am fine with it. As long as you are a good, compassionate human who sees women as humans being even if you think they need to be guarded by you. I have seen far too many men who pretend to be all “liberal” only to then subtly undermine women, their trust, etc. So really, being an honest and good human trumps all, in my opinion. Some very bad experiences have taught me that; it does not matter if a man appears liberal and says all the right things or not. Ultimately, words are cheap and plentiful. Actions in real life matter, and that to me is the ultimate metric of a person’s humanity. And good does not always or even most often mean “liberal”. Didn’t we have a movie where a man who did not believe in inter-racial marriages turned out to be the one with the most empathy and humanity? Not sure which movie that was but I could understand that entirely. Wasn’t there an episode in Sex and The City where Carrie’s mentor who seemed to say all the right things and mentor her in all the right ways ended up being a sly pervert who really just wanted to use her for sex, while her annoyingly curmudgeonly boss turned out to be the better human being (my memory is a bit rusty, so I apologize) ?
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Anu Warrier
June 10, 2018
Sev, a lot of what you say is the way I feel, and am in my personal life. I do have friends who are pretty open about their marriages and their sex lives, and I won’t be lying if I say I cringe, mentally. Yet, I feel that’s their choice to make. If I don’t want to listen, I don’t have to.
(Besides, I don’t know of any ‘liberal’ woman (or man) of my acquaintance who would encourage anyone to sleep around at will, have sex due to pressure or drink irresponsibly.)
The difference between you and Enigma is that you may be personally bothered by some norms of today’s world, and long for a more innocent time, you do not think your view is the be all and end all of things.
I have no problem with Enigma wanting a certain life for himself – traditional, religious, conservative. Where I have a problem is when he extrapolates from that personal view to:
If you saw ‘respect’ for women anywhere in any of Enigma’s posts, then all I can say, I’d much rather be disrespected than contort womanhood to fit into his ‘ideal’ cultural viewpoint. Which man who respects women calls them ‘sluts’?
While we progressive liberal fascists have been – continually- saying ‘there are many cultures’.
So. Where is this ‘respect for women’ you speak of?
We are not ‘deriding’ him for being traditional or conservative. He’s welcome to be what he wants. Let’s be very clear here – we are calling him out for the misogyny and sexism in his many statements on this thread. And the fact that in Every. Single. Post. all his strictures for the protection of what he calls ‘culture’ (which is not mine, nor many others’) is all aimed at women. You think that is respect?!
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brangan
June 10, 2018
Just wanted to cut in and say what a fantastic discussion this is. Thank you all, especially for sharing personal stories and experiences and bringing abstract concepts closer to life. Enigma, thank you for (inadvertently) starting it all.
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Madan
June 10, 2018
Sev: Great comments both and I do agree that actions speak far, far louder than words. The movie that you have in mind could be Guess Who’s Come To Dinner? I also agree strongly that we start to develop a rose tinted view of our childhood/formative years. I used to resist mouthing the “Is Internet Bad?” question but after Cambridge Analytica, I am not sure anymore. I guess not knowing so much about how bad the world can be makes us happier in our younger years. 😀 Lastly:
“I hope I am not so sure of myself to think that through my idea of “liberal, free, just” all of the world’s problems will be solved” – This so much. There is a sentence from Machiavelli’s Prince which sums up succinctly why too much of anything – monarchy or aristocracy or democracy (no communism in his time!) – leads to misery. There is a reason why there are opposing forces at work in society. Even if it means the death of something we cherish and hold near and dear, we need to at least be prepared for the eventuality that the ‘opposing’ camp will from nowhere experience a revival. It has happened too many times in history to believe there will ever be an ‘end of history’.
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sanjana
June 10, 2018
I am stunned! How something strong is diluted is really astonishing.
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Anu Warrier
June 10, 2018
^^And this is what moving paragraphs while typing on a phone does – jumble up your comment until it makes no sense. 😦
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Sev
June 10, 2018
Someone mentioned Adi Chopra and DDLJ. I think this is as good an excuse as any for me to express my love for the other Chopra: BR Chopra and his movies and TV shows. God, the man was a genius to me and how his work lies forgotten today. I hope it gets re-discovered and celebrated perpetually like Guru Dutt and Raj Kapoor’s films are. The man, according to me, knew how to craft together a compelling viewing experience that transcended time and space. Amazing talent. And what a sorry state his once gloried production lies in today. Apparently, his son and heir ended up finding an early grave due to his mounting debts and inability to fill his glorious father’s shoes. RIP both Senior and Junior Chopra.
And a suggestion about the other matter being discussed here: could language and the ability to craft a reasonable argument be a possible reason why someone’s comments appearing stronger than his/her intention? I am not sure about the rest here, but English is a second or third (if you count my native dialect) language for me and I do make errors in usage (subtle but important errors) all the time. The other day, I used a far stronger word when assessing another person’s views on science (“disparaging”), and the other person, a native speaker, had to correct me as the strength of my chosen word utterly misrepresented his views on science (“hohum” would have been a better choice). A point to consider, I thought, so I brought it up. Cheers.
PS-BTW do check out BR CHopra’s movies/shows online. He worked a lot from the 60s to 80s, and has many, many priceless movies with such great music. He is possibly the key reason why Mahendra Kapoor will be remembered by people like me as strongly as I remember Rafi. Well, almost 🙂
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Sev
June 10, 2018
Final word: just wanted to bring up again the point that we have the poster’s words alone to figure out their deepest views, and yet, language is also a barrier because for most of us here do not write for a living or have that kind of extensive experience in writing to put across our most complex ideas into a coherent comment. That is an issue I have with televised debates, talk shows etc as well. They rely so much on language, and yet, the skill and training in using language at that level is not comparable across the board. I feel that the same could be true on a fora like this which causes us to talk past each other. Just a thought. Cheers, and thanks to Madan, Anu for commenting on my earlier remarks.
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Vidhya M
June 11, 2018
What a thread! I watched this movie FDFS, with none for company, dumping my kid in the Theater’s inhouse creche in the last minute (“A” movie), replacing my breakfast and lunch with a tub of popcorn & juice, zooming in a two-wheeler at noon in the hot sun – only coz I wished to vicariously experience the much hyped female bonding of the film’s characters. Something I sorely miss, as my Veeres are in different parts of the world. The movie however turned out to be nothing more than a female version of Sonu Ke Titu Ki Sweety (that showed glossy exaggerated male-bonding)
But BR’s (and many others’) opinions on how this kind of a movie has to be made “to speak about women’s issues to a larger audience” had me wonder if there was any other such movie in the commercial framwork – in Tamil or Hindi?
That led me to “Kalyana Agathigal” – a 1985 K Balachander movie, that I just finished watching on YouTube. 7 girls from different walks of life (who are, as the name suggests, disillusioned with marriage) live together and wow they do “live”, rather than simply “exist” in the screenplay!!
This one too touched upon Weight issues, Commitment issues, Divorce, Career + Passion, Remarriage, Modern clothes (“Midi”), Cussing, Sex (in its mildest form), falling in and out of love – all within the perimeters of an 80s Tamil movie. But to me, this one felt more empowering than its 33 yrs younger cousin VDW.
Just citing two scenarios from Kalyana Agathigal:
Eg. A husband tries to force himself upon his estranged wife (in the 80s, when marital rape was an unknown term). He explains how his conjugal visit was legit, to his wife’s petrified friends. Yet when things go out of control – one docile-looking girl simply beats him out of his senses and another goes to the police. No thaali sentiment mind you and the wife continues her fight for her divorce (a la Swara’s story)
Another girl, who has no kith or kin, with a mere 10th std degree, who isnt conventionally good-looking AND who yearns for a love-life (all these are subtly highlighted many times in the film), is warmly welcomed into her gentlemanly lover’s super-rich, affable, modern thinking family. But with just one condition, that she should embrace the religion of the Boy to get married. While I waited with bated breath to see how there would be a convenient resolution with a “God is Love. Love is God. All Gods are the same” moral, I was pleasantly shocked to see her walk out of the marriage – even though her friends suggest that she convert for the sake of the marriage and continue to practice her original faith discreetly. (Sonam/ Kareena/ Shikha stories rolled into one)
This film felt way more progressive to me for its times. What VDW shows – i.e The ladies who drink, smoke, cuss, shun marriage / have pre-marital sex uninhibitedly, have already broken the glass ceiling and exited the stratosphere, say, in the last decade. They probably care a about what we (me, Enigma et al) think about them and even dont need the other (fantastic) commenters to defend their stance. The real issues are the ones that would eventually run deeper & cut sharper for these (and every other) women.
The movie would have furthered the cause of women if
1 it had also spoken of those other “real” things (Career/ Independence/ Long distance relationship/Self confidence etc)
2 And if it had broken more stereotypes – Unhinged sex (why show Sonam fall for the Bhandari guy), Obesity (why should Shikha gain weight only post-partum and not be a fat person always), Pecking Order (why should Mrs. Kareena be aseptic & with genuine family issues – and an Indie Swara be the masturbator, slack, brat with a flimsy backstory which (w)could irk Grandmas?)
For now, to me, this movie is worth just a tub of popcorn (and ofcourse for this splendid thread). I know the makers arent obliged to push the (real) envelopes in their high-budget ventures, but hey it wouldn’t have hurt had they made a Veere Di Awakening than a Wedding.
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Enigma
June 11, 2018
BR, always at your service!
Madan and Sev, appreciate your comments.
Rahul, oppression is not what I want,
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Rahul
June 11, 2018
“Rahul, oppression is not what I want,”
Three cheers for Enigma Bro!!
This sounds way cooler, Bro, that you are finally manning up that seeing women dressed as tents is something that YOU want, and culture thing was just an excuse.
Trust me,when you say – “these girls dont follow culture only” etc. you come across as a whiny uncle. But if you openly admit that it is YOU who gets your jollies by watching traditionally dressed women then people will appreciate this confidence and self awareness. If you don’t believe me ask the aussie dudes who you go out with. How many grown men there are who can openly admit to monitoring women’s clothes on a day to day basis? So I admire your candour on this account bro.
Was great interacting with you.
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silverambrosia
June 11, 2018
Sev: What fantastic comments. Can empathise with your wonderfully expressed views, and you brought in what was sorely missing in the conversation.
“As I get older, I too have gotten a bit “soft” that is, less willing to see offence and developed a softer-spot for certain past practices, clothes, TV shows, movies etc. that remind me of my childhood years as well as my older family. Nostalgia, I guess, is a disease of the older 🙂……..
So, really, through my tastes in music, movies, clothes, etc, I am revealing a longing for a part-real-part-imagined past, which appears to be what most romantics desire 🙂”
It maybe a mythical, somewhat romanticized past we draw on, but even with its warts there are things there that are worth retaining, whether exhibited in old Hollywood/British cinema or the Hindi/Urdu cinema of yore; grace, elegance and dignity in interactions, and such witty and sophisticated characters. U watch the characters on the screen and u wish u were like them! I can’t say I’m fond of contemporary Pakistani dramas, but I am a huge fan of some of the classic 80’s Hasina Moin dramas (Ankahi, Tanhaiyan, even Dhoop Kinare). They weren’t really conventionally ‘romantic’ at all, but God they were brilliantly written, and feature some of the best and wittiest screen writing I have ever seen.
The trailer for this ‘Veer Di Wedding’ film looks very crude and desperately try hard, and I would have said exactly the same thing if it had featured four men and not four women. It’s not a man/woman thing at all for me.
Amongst other things u have written, I think there’s a lot to be said for this statement:
“Ultimately, words are cheap and plentiful. Actions in real life matter, and that to me is the ultimate metric of a person’s humanity”
It’s something we all know but sometimes need to remind ourselves of.
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Sifter
June 11, 2018
@Anu- Admire your relentless patience while responding to some commentators who do not seem to understand the difference between the Freedom to choose how you are (Conservative/Modern/Somewhere in the middle/Don’t care/I am who I am/I make compromises or Change for whatever reason)…only when it comes to women. Or are willfully ignorant about it.
@Madan- You are tenacious. Thank you.
@ Anu & Madan- I got a little choked reading about your Grandfathers. Thank you for sharing little glimpses of them. My grandfather was also almost up there with yours. And so was my father. Both of them never once drew that awful lakshman-rekha in our home. Always pushed us to be independent. To own up to our responsibilities. To make our own choices whether they liked them or not. Both were always there for the women in our family. And made us the proud, independent women we are now. My dad passed away 18 years ago and my granddad 11 years ago and i still miss them most of the time.
@ Sev- Valid points. Especially the rose tinted recollections of the childhood or the past.And if i do recall correctly, Kalyana Agadigal bombed when it was released. Also, i think there was a review of writer Sujatha who said Balachander forgot that the movie going audience is 79% male and they would never like to see such movies. Or something to that effect. That core audience has not changed till now. All this hullabaloo on something so bland as VDW (I do reiterate that it is important that more movies about women are made and not all of them have to be great or radical everytime!)…imagine the same Kalyana Agadigal getting made now with most of its contents intact. I Can’t because the name calling will shoot to the stratosphere.
Lastly, I am a mish-mash of a conservative/modern/rebel/liberal/don’t care person myself. It is up to me as a woman, as a person to be what I am.. While I can read and understand how some posters here want women to be right out of Ramayana and if the women in your family too want it….so be it. Please, just do not ram it down the throats of the rest of the women outside your family unit. I am writing this here because, every thread with such discussions start with deriding comments against women from some guy who after loads of jabs and counter-jabs end up saying the women all gang up to argue and derail that particular thread.
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Madan
June 11, 2018
Vidhya M: I haven’t seen either VDW or that Balachander film. But in a similar vein, Arth was made in an uncompromising fashion and grappled with more serious issues. I don’t have first hand knowledge but wiki says it was made on a budget of Rs.1 core and made Rs.2 crore at the BO, thus a hit. I cannot imagine such a serious film running well at the BO except if centred around a nationalist cause. The uncompromising social drama is gone. Films about the personal necessarily have to be frivolous or at least balanced with humour that may not be very necessary from a writing point of view. For eg Queen did tackle an issue of significance and concluded on a bold note but without the comic interludes in Europe would it still have run well? VDW has apparently already made 98 crores at the BO and may well cross the 100 cr mark by the end. So it has been well liked.
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sanjana
June 11, 2018
Except for old songs, I find nothing romantic about the past. About those big joint families and one bathroom for all! About lack of menstrual hygiene and lack of advanced medical facilities. About death of every second woman during childbirth. Unplanned families with every family having more than half a dozen kids from first and subsequent wives. Widows becoming unpaid servants of these joint families and sometimes exploited by men. Not to forget the condition of the most disadvantaged sections of society who had to lead subnormal lives. America had discrimination during those times and lack of black actors in hollywood movies with some rare exceptions.
I dont want to go too deep about some other horrible aspects of life that used to be the norm in those days. I came to know about these things from my parents who used to give me bits of information about their parents and grandparents and their lives during those times.
The future generations may say the same things about us. The present generation is having its own negative points. How many of us are allowing our kids to question our lives and our value systems? We want them to believe in what we believe for their own good. They have to keep up with peer pressure and pleasing their parents.
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silverambrosia
June 11, 2018
Sev: Just noticed that I replicated your exact expression ‘try hard’. ‘Try hard’ and ‘wannabe’ really seem to be the most fitting descriptions. Sometimes though, the film turns out better than the trailer suggests. So, unfair to pre-judge the movie without watching it…but this review seems to reflect the content of the trailer very well: ‘https://scroll.in/reel/881023/veere-di-wedding-film-review-rarely-has-a-movie-worked-so-hard-at-being-outrageous. ‘Pre-Adult’ also seems like another apt description.
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sanjana
June 11, 2018
Our generation has become selfish out of necessity and sometimes out of greed.
Nuclear families where parents are considered a burden. Leaving the country and not be there when our elders need our presence and care. We have become too child centric and not giving sufficient importance to other relationships.
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phaneendra201
June 11, 2018
@Sanjana – We have become too child centric and not giving sufficient importance to other relationships.
Interesting comment 🙂
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Anu Warrier
June 11, 2018
Sifter – thank you; I can’t believe that it still needs to be said. Finally, it is about the freedom of choice and the right to be treated as an equal human being. Like you, I’m a strange mixture of liberal and conservative, traditional and modern, and yes, don’t-care-what-the-heck-you-label-me-as, too.
My father allowed me to make my choices even when he didn’t agree with them, and was there to help me up when I made mistakes. He brought me up to live with integrity – he showed us by example. He was responsible for turning me into an independent woman who takes her rights and responsibilities seriously. Fortunately, I also have a husband who is secure enough in his manhood to not care that I have an opinion, and that I will voice it. (And doesn’t give a damn how I dress, whether I drink, or go out with a friend – male or female – without him.) That equality is something I cherish.
My condolences on the deaths of your father and grandfather – the grief never quite goes away. They seem to have been wonderful men.
For everyone, male or female, who gets why this is such an important issue, and who articulated it here, thank you. For others, ‘respect’ doesn’t come from pushing half the world’s population into a straitjacket that is limited by your imagination. It comes from accepting that they, just as you, are allowed to make their own personal choices.
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silverambrosia
June 11, 2018
Sanjana: All fair points. I think Sev and I have both conceded that the older world we have reconstructed in our minds is only half reality. Even something like the joint family can look attractive from afar, but if we were placed in that environment and had to live in it we would probably seriously struggle. There were sets of hierarchies within it and scarce personal space or autonomy. But, family members and siblings also helped and supported one another, and there was joint responsibility and mutual assistance in taking care of older members of the family.
Were all gendered interactions gracious, and were all men embodiments of chivalry and gallantry back in the day? Of course not. Women obviously had it much tougher in many ways., and there are many things we cannot and should not wind the clock back on. But we can still take the best of that world; some of it is our fancy and some of it was real. People have different views and different value systems and it is there prerogative to hold those views, but this film just appears to be a celebration of crudity and crassness. Just seems to be lowering the bar on how we talk to one another and engage with each other.
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Rahini David
June 12, 2018
There is one more point which I wanted to write down in this thread. Men who control the choices of clothes in their wives or daughters can very well be men who encourage them in career or life choices. They may be men who would not dream of questioning their wife’s choice in platonic friends and would never read their daughter’s text messages.
There is no reason why a man who is squeamish about his sister showing cleavage would try to control her finances.
In just the same way we can’t judge a woman by the length of her hem, we can’t judge the men who are associated with her either. Maybe he is fully ok with her sense of dress, maybe he tried to talk her out of it and failed, maybe he picked the dress and she isn’t fully ok with showing skin.
And there is absolutely no reason why he should not be proud of her if she earns more than him or becomes more popular than him. To assume that he would not be ok with it is being judgmental without knowing him too.
Note: this is not meant to condone Enigma’s original stance. But IMO some of the rhetorical questions thrown at him seemed a little uncalled for.
silverambrosia: but this film just appears to be a celebration of crudity and crassness. Just seems to be lowering the bar on how we talk to one another and engage with each other.
Did not see the movie, but couldn’t agree more. But all types of movies need to be made. Crass people exist. There is a certain extent of crassness in the best of us. Then crass movies should exist too, no?
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Anu Warrier
June 13, 2018
Rahini, no one (at least I think no one is) is saying he can’t hold the views he holds personally – if his wife is okay with that conservatism, who am I to say she’s wrong? Our outrage – or speaking for myself – is his collective condemnation of any woman who doesn’t fit into his worldview of ‘cultured’. As I pointed out in my response to Sev – when he collectively condemns a modern, progressive outlook as the death of culture (as he defines it), when he insists that women are the gatekeepers of culture and their ‘fall’ will devastate a family more, that is dangerous talk. I’m perfectly happy judging him for that sort of regressive nonsense.
Simply put, I’m not judging Enigma for how he cares to live his life or his personal choices with which, according to him, his wife is in sync. I’m all for freedom of choice – the choice to be as traditional and conservative as he or she wishes. But when he insists his freedom is the ‘cultured’ way, while ours is the death knell of culture, there is a huge problem. Because then he’s denying us the freedom he demands for himself.
Also, when he puts such an opinion out there, it is fine to ask whether his views are only for other women he deems sluts. Or whether he has the same rule for the women of his family. In one case, it is double standards – one rule for ‘his’ women, one rule for others. On the other hand, it is a question of how do you decide the choices for another sentient being? What makes you the arbiter of what’s right for your women?
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silverambrosia
June 13, 2018
Rahini: Sure, there is crassness in all of us, and that’s a part of being human. We can be amused at what are described as ‘non-veg’ jokes, or be entertained by things that others might considered low-brow. I do think this is distinct from actively taking pride in using profanity, hollering at each other, and being vulgar for the sake of being vulgar. The latter strikes me as very off-putting and juvenile. These qualities almost seem to be projected as things to aspire to in the movie. From the trailer, I do think they are implicitly being projected as ‘progressive’ traits.
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Rahini David
June 13, 2018
Anu Warrier: I was specifically talking about the rhetorical questions like the below one which makes a certain assumption about the kind of man Enigma is. If a man has a few decidedly misogynistic thoughts about attire, it does not mean that all his thoughts about women are going to be misogynistic.
Maybe the below questions weren’t rhetorical at all. But it certainly sounded that way to me.
But my question is, what if your wife had wanted to work? Would you have supported it?
What if she loves her career and gets immense satisfaction from it? And earns more than you? Would you be proud of her?
silverambrosia: I agree.
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sanjana
June 13, 2018
Actually it is all about controlling overtly or covertly. I know some persons who do this. Deciding everything. Why to blame only men? In most cases, mothers decide that the daughter dress conservatively and do so with good intentions. Fathers dont care much.
As for using cuss words, if it is between like minded friends its ok. The film just showed this. To raise our tolerance levels to the murky side. It is not progress but it is calling for tolerance. An experiment.
While in Rome is not just a proverb. It has many meanings.
Full dress is always safe. To protect from dog bites and to be protected from unnecessary pawing in crowds.
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Anu Warrier
June 13, 2018
Actually it is all about controlling overtly or covertly.
Bingo!
Rahini, in my experience, misogyny doesn’t stop at the dress. People who feel the need to control one aspect of a woman’s life, usually end up controlling much more. Overtly or covertly. In the name of tradition, or honour, or society or as Sanjana put it, safety.
Full dress is always safe. To protect from dog bites and to be protected from unnecessary pawing in crowds.
I grinned at the part about dog bites, but ‘full dress is always safe’ – in which country? If so, women wearing saris, or salwar kameezes, or burqas shouldn’t be molested. Babies in nappies, schoolgirls in uniform should be safe. (I have been groped when I was wearing a churidar kameez, a sari, a full pavadai respectively.)
That part smacks of ‘But what were you wearing?’
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sanjana
June 13, 2018
Travelling in Mumbai locals teaches one to be cautious. Not to wear any gold jewellery and other precautions. While one travels by car, there is more freedom to wear what one wants.
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sanjana
June 13, 2018
There are rapists but they also have preferences. One may specialise in child rape or even an infant rape which is perversion of extreme proportions. All rapists are not perverts but all perverts are rapists. And there is marital rape also which is a controversial topic.
Only the narrow minded question about what one wore or what one’s profession was. If they are on social media, we can give them fitting replies. Otherwise we can ignore them.
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sanjana
June 14, 2018
For those who are not happy with VDW.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/movie-reviews/lust-stories-movie-review-netflix-s-new-film-undresses-repressed-indian-sexuality/story-4UXk8mxvncZKUxUEygCVIJ.html
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Vandana
June 18, 2018
Unbelievable thread and so, so many good reads!
Enigma’s comments is a quite familiar refrain among a certain NRI diaspora that somehow feel the need to live, protect and sanctify “being Indian” as they remember it. Goes much the same …. I don’t agree with this, I don’t support that but I cannot see that these concessions are in direct conflict with the original post. I agree that the Indian culture is not fair to women/ Dalits/ take your pick of minority but admitting it to myself would mean that I am not “Indian”. And if I am not Indian, then I am Australian/ British/ western cultured. It is quite a struggle, living with that.
The rest of us find out that being part of such a diaspora gives us a chance to define our own culture, values, traditions et all for our kids. And wonder why Indian Culture won’t give the same chance to India’s own people. I moved out of India 18 yrs ago and every time I visit, I come back to a part of India that walks with the times. Inspite of the Gods and the culture police. 🙂
Enigma, I wish you all the best with your struggles with keeping the conservative Indian thought alive in the western world. Expecting an entire country to stay suspended in time to allow for it might be expecting too much …which is what most people are responding to.
BR, it is time you went back to calling a spade a spade. VDW is the kind of film you make to cash in on the female empowerment wave that seems to be Bollywood’s latest ‘it’ thing but it is by no means ‘necessary’.
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Rocky
November 5, 2018
Loved the review, very funny and witty.
Some gems from the review –
1.john.” The latter, in case you were wondering, refers not to one of Christ’s apostles but to what urbandictionary.com calls, rather charmingly, “a dick large enough to wreck Godzilla’s vagina.” This film, in other words, is less about The Last Supper than The Lasting Shtupper.
That’s how Meera knows the Hindi word for orgasm: charam sukh. Going by the reaction of some viewers around me, this revelation clearly hit the G-spot.
3.She may keep saying “no,” but he remembers what she said a few hours earlier: “yes, yes, oh God, yes!”
4.Issues are raised and resolved in so little time, it looks like a new scripting technique: premature elucidation.
I thought it was a strictly one time (home viewing ) watch. Sonam Kapoor looked hot, Kareena looked too old for the part.
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TambiDude
November 5, 2018
Rocky: I believe you live in Illinois. Did the version you see had those cuss words. I was told that in the theatrical release in India, “tere liye rajma chawal kaun banayega, you NRI c**t” was changed to NRI chooha.
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Rocky
November 5, 2018
I saw it yesterday on DVD with couple of shots of Macallan , so can’t tell you for sure . I think though that on the DVD there were certain words which were bleeped .
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Jai
June 25, 2023
Going back to re-read BR’s previous reviews is always a treat – especially on rainy weekends with a nice hot cuppa in hand 🙂 Not only does one get to relive and laugh at several extremely witty (occasionally stilleto sharp) remarks in the review; but the comments thread is usually captivating too. Both for some very well thought out comments (many), but also a few which are so far out of left field, they are entertaining in themselves.
In this thread, for instance, the one from @Aparna above, just can’t help but wonder why Sonam Kapoor herself and several of her fans (by all acounts her fanbase is quite limited!!) keep bringing up a correlation between evaluations of her acting talent and her looks.
Aparna here says ” I don’t quite get her nonactress reputation when plenty of top actresses (Katrina, Deepika) are worse off and receive less flack. It can’t be a looks thing because she’s more classically pretty than both.” – meaning ofc, that a) “less classically pretty” actresses tend to receive “non actress” reputations, and b) Sonam is both a better actress and a better looker than Katrina and Deepika…….
Mind boggling assertions, it must be said, even allowing for personal opinions.
First off, Sonam Kapoor herself is on record claiming the exact opposite of this hypothesis – on live TV, she had blithely stated that worse-looking actresses receive generous acting accolades while great looking ones tend to not be given credit for their splendid acting chops. (Ofc she included herself in the latter category, modesty and realistic self evaluation werenever her forte)
Me thinks the general evaluation of Sonam’s acting talent is exactly what she has lived up to in performances – she has either been terrible (Khoobsurat, Dolly Ki Doli) or supremely underwhelming (Ek Ladki ko Dekha….).
As to whether she is a better actress than her peers like Katrina and Deepika – well, in the former case, yes – though that choice is between such horrendous alternatives, one wonders whether there is even a winner in this futile comparison 🙂 I don’t think that many people would seriously suggest Sonam’s a better actress than Deepika however – nor that she’s more “classically pretty” than both.
In any case, I really fail to see why these evaluations of distinct traits repeatedly get dredged together in Sonam’s case. If indeed this correlation between looks and acting evaluations was true, Aishwarya Rai & Sid Malhotra would be considered thespians!!
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dream bazar
March 15, 2024
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