As the nation celebrates its 72nd Independence Day, we need to have a dialogue between those who read India right and left.
Before I venture further, I must admit this. I have never been too fond of labels which are, more often, borrowed constructs placed out of context. So, I am going to use the words, “Left” and “Right” reluctantly. This could be a conversation between “Modern” and “Traditional” way to read India as well.
This conversation is based on real, intense dialogues that have been happening inside my close circles, ever since this controversy broke out.
Left: I can’t believe we have come to this ghastly state of affairs when we’ve begun communalizing Carnatic Music. Haven’t these enraged “rasikas” ever listened to Abraham Pandithar or Samuel Vedanayakkam Pillai or if nothing else, atleast heard NagooreHanifa’s “IraivanidamKaiyendungal” sung by Vittal Das?
Right: Like always, you are missing the forest for the trees. Inculturation is at the heart of the matter here. In case the word is unfamiliar, here is the definition from wikipedia
“In Christianity, inculturation is the adaptation of the way Church teachings are presented to non-Christian cultures and, in turn, the influence of those cultures on the evolution of these teachings. This is a term that is generally used by Roman Catholics, the World Council of Churches and some Protestants, other Protestants prefer to use the term “contextual theology“
Left: What is wrong in this? Have you ever been to a Syrian Christian wedding in Kerala where Dwajasthambas are a common sight in Churches, where families get together to prepare the mangalsutra on the eve of the wedding night? What is wrong in using one set of cultural symbols to talk about a different faith? Isn’t that the essence of who we are?
When a wise man (whom I shall not name here for obvious reasons) once called India, “an ancient palimpsest on which layer upon layer of thought and reverie had been inscribed, and yet no succeeding layer had completely hidden or erased what had been written previously”, wasn’t this the whole point?
Right: Now, Come on! Stop indulging in romantic notions. You can’t brush under the carpet, bloodied centuries of history, colonization and all its hydra-headed reverberations with an all-too-pleasing image of a “palimpsest”. The devil lies in the details. Let’s talk in specific terms.
There is nothing wrong in this appropriation, except when Abrahamic faiths claim itself to be the ONE and only, and rightly, not one among the many. How can one faith claiming false monopoly appropriate symbols from another faith which doesn’t claim itself to be a monopoly? Do you see the asymmetry which thaws the heart?
Left: Yes, I hear your anguish. If you are willing, why don’t you understand its context, its origins to appreciate how it came that way? Each faith, whether we like it or not, is a product of its historical circumstances. In such case, why is it so hard to understand, and dare I say, empathize with its original geographical context, set in conflicted and deserted regions, amidst warring tribals?
Right: It’s funny when you talk about empathizing the “other”, when the truth is, and I am sorry to say this, you hold your own culture and tradition in shame and self-hatred. Why do you hold so much disgust towards your own culture, your own dharma? Why do you dismiss your own heritage and culture in one swoop of dogma and superstition?
In all these years, have you ever, even for a brief moment, felt pride over your roots and heritage? Or are you too colonized to even entertain such a notion? Why do you choose to selectively disown the entire story of this civilization, and only acknowledge that one segment of the story which started seventy two years ago, with the birth of the Indian constitution?
Think about it. When you talk about communalizing carnatic music, the real question is this: Let us say, if you are a Hindu and a Brahmin(and I completely hear your anguish that today majority of the Carnatic musicians are mostly upper-class, Hindu and Brahmin. Let us work towards making music more inclusive), when you are presenting Carnatic music for a Christian audience, would you feel comfortable wearing the markers of your own heritage, say vibhuti or thiruman? Think about it.
Left: This conversation, like I expected, is going in all directions. I am going to stick to the core theme of this discussion and I can only tell you this. When I was studying in a salesian school in Chennai, for many years, I used to recite “Our Father in Heaven” prayer in my school assembly stage, wearing vibhutiin my forehead and a rudraksha in my neck. I don’t recollect a single day when I felt out of place reciting myprayers in my school.
Right: That’s beautiful to hear that. But, you haven’t addressed the crux of the point. You are selectively quoting your own life story to evade talking about extremely uncomfortable issues.
Left: By all means, let’s keep the conversation going. I can’t believe we’ve even started to talk. We need totalk.
This post was written by Venky
Baradwaj Rangan 
raghavan0418
August 24, 2018
I seem to recall reading our Republic having established itself as secular. As long as the musicians are not plagiarizing the great composers, present and past, and have original pieces pertaining to the faiths in question, then more power to them.
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Srinivas R
August 25, 2018
Fascinating dialogue. Unfortunately, the reaction to Carnatic singers performing for other religions was not a dialogue. It was outrage, abuse followed by the singers backing off and apologizing. Except TM Krishna, everyone backed out.
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Madan
August 25, 2018
As arrists, they gave the freedom to sing wherever and however they please. I actually do not think the right’s point is without merit here but since they have as usual resorted to threats and intimidation, I will not say anything that could be seen as endorsing their views. FFS learn to respect a different opinion.
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Arjun
August 25, 2018
This conversation is incomplete without a discussion of the original sin,so to speak – the appropriation of an artform that belonged to communities such as devadasis and isai velalars by brahmins, who were basically musical illiterates until the 18th century. The same happened with Bharatanatyam – brahmins used to regard dancing as an occupation fit only for prostitues till Rukmini Arundale came along. It is disgusting to now watch them act as though they own these art forms and wear it as marker of high culture, when the truth is Brahmins have always been cultural philistines good at exactly two things – memorizing useless chants and sucking up to the ruling class.
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jaga_jaga
August 25, 2018
I have to comment about V.Roopam II (absolute nonsense of a movie) and K. Kokila (deserved a better deal from BR, IMO – the sub-text/foot notes are worthy to be taken note of). Will do both when leisure loves me more, some day!
But what immediately caught my attention was Arjun’s comment. The first part of it was super profound.
This:
“the appropriation of an artform that belonged to communities such as devadasis and isai velalars by brahmins, who were basically musical illiterates until the 18th century”
Such an amazing point, which contemporary Brahmins tend to conveniently ignore! Karnatic music may be hip for Brahmins over the past 50-60 odd years. Prior to it, it was not at all Kosher. It was all about the supremacy of the Vedas, and the Shastraas – Mimamsa, Tarka, Nyaya and Vyakarana. Some bits about the Divya Prabandhams, and Tiruvaasagams etc.
Then, the Brahmin community conveniently eschewed this traditional form of learning, and opted for English learning, while bemoaning the loss of traditions! Ironic? Hypocritical? Absolutely, IMO!
Then they somehow made Karnatic music their domain, and “appropriation” is a very appropriate word here. All these musical saints “Tyagaraja”, “Syama Sastri” and all – they weren’t held in high esteem by the “well-read” conventional Brahmins, well-versed in the Vedas and Shastras. It is only more recently that they have been deified. In fact, even today, you ask a traditional Advaitin, Vishishta Advaitin or Dvaitin about Karnatic music, they might be OK with it being a soft form of promoting Brahminical culture, but will have no qualms in agreeing its inferiority to the Vedas and Shastraas.
The next part of Arjun’s comment, I found absolutely disgusting:
This:
“Brahmins have always been cultural philistines good at exactly two things – memorizing useless chants and sucking up to the ruling class.”
Clearly highlights the problem the country is facing today. You can always be critical of something, yet be polite. Need not spew venom at any community. This is where instead of being objective, Arjun hurls the typical DK type slander on the Brahmins. Gives them the ammo to legitimately claim, how bad it is for them!
Alas, such a sad, immature end to what could have been such a profound point!
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jaga_jaga
August 25, 2018
Actually just realized one more point…the Brahmins have indeed appropriated Karnatic music. Not just Karnatic music but several other things, which they use it to their advantage as a community.
Having said it, the biggest perpetrators of appropriating any culture are actually the Christians! Appropriate the culture, somehow tie it up with Jesus, and bingo, yet another christian state is generated!
This is the formula adopted by them to convert the mighty Roman empire, the vast stretches of Latin America and Africa, a significant chunk of Goa, Kerala and the North East.
So it is no surprise that they are also after Karnatic music!
One interesting point about “appropriating” – when the Brahmins appropriate, it is to exude some sense of cultural superiority. When the Christians appropriate, it is to convert the masses into their religion!
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Venky
August 26, 2018
@raghavan0418 “As long as the musicians are not plagiarizing the great composers, present and past”, well, I haven’t seen any evidences so far of musicians plagiarizing the composers so far. This piece from TMK addresses the complexities underneath quite well.
https://thewire.in/the-arts/carnatic-music-plagiarism-tradition
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Venky
August 26, 2018
@Madan: “I actually do not think the right’s point is without merit” Yes, and that’s exactly why I attempted to write this. In the private dialogues, I have been having these difficult conversations with my friends, and it is saddening that in today’s vitriolic climate, we are not having these conversations in public.
While we are ready to criticize, often when one dugs deep, one finds a lot of self-hate lurking beneath. The right’s angst comes from that.
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Madan
August 26, 2018
“While we are ready to criticize, often when one dugs deep, one finds a lot of self-hate lurking beneath.” – Hmm, there may be, may or not be but what IS at work is an overwhelming desire to protect minorities. Even when someone or a group or organisation from a minority community do not demonstrate secular values. And THAT becomes a point of grievance with the Hindu right.
In writing the below comment, I am going back on my original promise not to discuss this but I agree with you that we ought to be able to have a discussion as long as no prejudice to a community is expressed. My father had a Tamil Christian driver for a few years until his eyesight deteriorated too much with age for him to drive safely at night. He was a wonderful driver and very experienced, knew every nook and cranny of Mumbai, well almost. BUT where we respected his desire to continue to practice his religion in the way he pleased, he did not seem to respect our desire to practice Hinduism (and only modestly, we are definitely not in the ‘wear naamam to office’ category); and this was when we were his employers so imagine the anti Hindu indoctrination he must have had. Couple of times, he removed the tiny Ganesha idols placed on the dashboard behind the steering wheel and replaced it with pictures of Jesus. Predictably got reprimanded for it. He sometimes played Christian sermons recited in Tamil and again we usually never bothered but one time he was playing very violent, inciting verses and we had to tell him to stop. Needless to say, he got busy trying to convert other drivers working for my father’s colleagues to Christianity too.
I do not have a problem with Christians practicing Christianity or even with calling out to others to embrace it as their faith. But I do have a problem with the insidious anti non Christian tone adopted by the proselytizers that I have seen (there may be others who have a different way of going about it admittedly). Once, similarly, a couple of Christians from the local church came to us with a free booklet titled ‘Power to Change’. The adverts for Power To Change did not mention anywhere that it was about Christianity and almost presented itself as some self help book/course. Instead, the booklet was full of first person accounts by people who, you know, found Hinduism or Islam so horrible that they sought solace in Lord Jesus and then everybody lived happily and ever after.
Reading that booklet did not and does not make my blood boil. On the other hand, I was amused by its naivete. But it also means I am ( and justifiably imo) a little suspicious of anything that goes by the name of “Christian organisation”. And I am not comfortable with Carnatic music being performed in praise of Christ FOR a Christian organisation; I would rather TMK/OSA perform it in their own concerts. But, as I said, I am only not comfortable; I will NOT call for musicians to not go and perform there as I have no right to and doing that is playing it the wrong way imo. I would advocate for the Hindu right to instead also adopt gospel music and perform it with English lyrics written in praise of Rama or Hanuman, with references to their strength/ability to vanquish invaders. If nothing else, but to see just how comfortable the free speech advocates really are with free speech that doesn’t agree with their values.
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null_pointer
August 26, 2018
In India minorities are given more freedom, and rights to practice their religion peacefully, and most of them do so. But, it is from those who seek to convert and put down other faith that problems start. Also, I’m not a right wing goon. I’m just someone living in a city, that understands the values of multiculturalism. I try to treat friends from other religion the same way I treat friends from my own. But, incidents like these make me question if people from other religions will extend the same courtesy to me.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/mizoram-gives-international-yoga-day-a-miss/article24222354.ece
I really fear the proliferation of minorities in India. It is next to impossible to live as a hindu in a muslim majority area. Once, a guy delivered ‘pirai nilavu’ by mistake, a magazine for the muslims written by muslims that has widespread readership. Reading that gave me chills. Full of sentiments against our government, with an utter disregard to our constitution. It is hightime minorities realize that secularism works both ways, and criticize their counterparts when they are wrong.
footnote: Also bollywood’s hypocrisy against hindus can’t be overstated. Asifa’s death and rape, a sad thing nevertheless was painted as a hindu crime against the minorities. Stars held up placards saying “I’m hindustan, and I’m ashamed”. Doubt they had the guts to do the same for the rapes happening in madrassas and churches. A criminal is a criminal irrespective of their religion.
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sanjana
August 26, 2018
Madan: Interesting insights about your driver and his unwanted zeal. This is the other side liberals need to look into. This has lead to the hindu right doing the same. So everyone is extra careful and extra suspicious.
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Arjun
August 26, 2018
@Jaga_jaga: “The next part of Arjun’s comment, I found absolutely disgusting”
You may find it disgusting, but your own comment pretty much validates what I said – this
“It was all about the supremacy of the Vedas, and the Shastraas – Mimamsa, Tarka, Nyaya and Vyakarana.”
Exactly. A bunch of well-fed Brahmins circle jerking each other off on pointless stuff that is of no use to or interest to anyone. And the only reason they managed to be well-fed was because they sucked up to the ruling class, convincing them that what they were doing was somehow terribly important and thus managed to get generous alms. உழைப்பென்பது மறுக்கப்பட்ட சமூகம்.
“One interesting point about “appropriating” – when the Brahmins appropriate, it is to exude some sense of cultural superiority. When the Christians appropriate, it is to convert the masses into their religion!”
And when they convert, they also happen to gain access to quality education, health care and social mobility. Honestly, why do you Brahmins care so much if someone converts? Islam and Christianity are far more egalitarian religions compared to Hinduism and despite all the right wing rhetoric about Abrahamic dogma and stuff, they are actually more sophisticated belief systems with much less superstitions claptrap and a more socially integrated and involved priestly class. Ever hear of Brahmins running schools and hospitals for the downtrodden and marginalized? Me neither.Now compare that to the Christian missions and the humanitarian work of Christian nuns etc. Enuf said.
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sanjana
August 26, 2018
As for hindu songs imitating gospel just for the sake of it. They can try in the south. Hindus, christians and also muslims adopt bollywood and film songs to popularise or entertain their respective gods or faiths. Hope hindus stick to pure bhajans and other faiths stick to pure forms to make a serious statement instead of competitive downgrading just to get some popularity. Unfortunately religion is getting all the wrong things done in its name.
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sanjana
August 26, 2018
Arjun: Then why there is so much conflict between christians and muslims in countries dominated by one or the other? Why dont they live with the other peacefully, happily and converting into each others’ faiths without any intervention? And also practicing free speech?
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MANK
August 26, 2018
Your effort and your intentions in writing this is very much appreciated Venky, but i am not sure this belongs in this blog . because it leads to comments like these
Islam and Christianity are far more egalitarian religions compared to Hinduism and despite all the right wing rhetoric about Abrahamic dogma and stuff, they are actually more sophisticated belief systems with much less superstitions claptrap and a more socially integrated and involved priestly class
Brangan, i know you dont like to censor stuff, but i hope you use your discretion to moderate comments like these out. one can easily ignore stuff like these , but if someone is to pick up on it and every one joins in to have a heated debate, then this isn’t going to end nicely. i am sure that people from different religions and classes visit this blog,basically to discuss cinema in a very congenial atmosphere. mutual relationships and the nature of this blog itself will change completely if you are going to debate on stuff like the superiority of one religion over the other.
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Enigma
August 26, 2018
Arabs are hardly egalitarian. I have lived in the Middle East and have seen the Arabs treat south Asians including Muslims as shit.
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Madan
August 26, 2018
“Arabs are hardly egalitarian. I have lived in the Middle East and have seen the Arabs treat south Asians including Muslims as shit.” – Nobody is truly egalitarian. It is not enough to say I will treat fellow members of my religion with respect but treat those of other different religions with contempt. Or from the perspective of race, to treat blacks as second class citizens. I mean, don’t white Americans know that Jesus wasn’t REALLY white? It is myopic to presume one religion or race or nationality or what have you is superior to every other. There is ample evidence to the contrary should one wish to examine it.
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Madan
August 26, 2018
“Ever hear of Brahmins running schools and hospitals for the downtrodden and marginalized? ” – I will do better. Sharad Joshi,a Brahmin, gave up a life of comfort and privilege and instead strove life long to secure a better deal for farmers. If you mean Tamil Brahmin, please specify it. Because Tamil Nadu is NOT a microcosm of India and the politics in other states is often very different. Don’t say Tamil Brahmin was implied in the context of your comment because Brahmin is a caste and is not TN specific.
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Enigma
August 26, 2018
“Islam and Christianity are sophisticated belief systems”. HaHaHa…there are entire websites dedicated to the absurdities in the Quran and the bible. And as regards inclusiveness, tolerance etc. please refer to sites such as faith freedom.
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Enigma
August 26, 2018
Madan, there are a number of schools and colleges run by Tamil Brahmins too. There is no doubt that Tamil Brahmins committed a lot of atrocities and DK were right in taking them to task for that. But this was all a long time ago. Continuing to blame present day Brahmins is nothing but plain bigotry.
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Srinivas R
August 26, 2018
I am tempted to respond to Arjun, but as MANK has mentioned, it will not end nicely, so I will hold my tounge, or rather my keyboard…
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tonks
August 26, 2018
Sharing something I saw on Facebook posted by a lady called Kanishka Sinha and I identified with most of what she speaks about in her post :
People ask me why I’m so opposed to religion.
And the hardest thing to explain is the stunningly obvious.
Just now the central Hindu nationalist government is figuring out how to refuse potentially life saving aid from various international bodies because they want to show Hindu India as having the best culture in the world, capable of solving its own problems.
Hindu supremacists are encouraging Hindus not to donate money towards saving Keralites because of the number of beef eating Muslims and Christians that live there.
Brahmins are refusing to be rescued by Christian fishermen because of a casteist tradition that has led to the humiliation, demoralization, and impoverishment of hundreds of millions of Dalits and lower castes for thousands of years.
Meanwhile, in the rest of India…
Muslims are discriminated against, demonized, ghettoised, incarcerated, and publicly murdered in broad daylight, often on camera, sometimes in the thousands, on the slightest of pretexts, with little to no action against the culprits.
Except to occasionally elect them as Prime Ministers.
The Hindu Muslim divide has led to the division of the land into three countries, a million deaths in partition riots, ten million displaced, four wars, and the continued suppression of human rights in Kashmir countered by the occasional Islamic or Hindutva terrorist attack.
Oh yeah, almost forgot – and the possibility of a nuclear holocaust.
The obsession with religious and caste identification leads to the electorate ignoring all criteria of intelligence or integrity to vote for politicians who claim to represent the interests of ‘their community’, leading to the sort of dazedly incompetent bozos who roll out murderously inept initiatives like demonetization. Initiatives that destroy lives and livelihoods and keep our country in perpetual poverty.
It is a poverty that results in tens of thousands of desperate misery filled debt fuelled suicides every year. People set themselves on fire and let themselves burn to death, because they can’t look in the mirror and see the face of the person who is incapable of feeding his or her own children.
The electorate will also ignore their religious or caste’s community’s representative’s abetment of crony capitalists, who extract wealth from India’s natural resources and state run banks, and further exacerbate the inequality of wealth distribution, leading to a lack of widespread education, which perpetuates this cycle of wealth consolidation.
This is not a ‘Hindu’ thing.
The Buddhists will do it to Hindus in Sri Lanka, the Buddhists will do it to the Muslims in Myanmar, the Muslims will do it to the Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh.
This is not a subcontinental thing.
This is not a one off.
Wars of religion have devastated every land where two religions have mixed.
Without exception.
Jews and Muslims. Muslims and Christians. Christians and Jews. Hindus and Christians. Hindus and Buddhists. Hindus and Muslims. Muslims and Buddhists. Sikhs and Hindus. Sikhs and Muslims. Muslims and Parsis.
If you think this will stop one day when everyone figures out the one true religion, you’re ignoring the fact that when a religion becomes large enough, it’ll simply split into smaller warring factions.
Protestants vs Catholics vs Orthodox.
Sunnis vs Shias vs Ahmadi.
Anyone with a history book will know this.
I’m not impressed with the nonsensical apologia of people trying to convince me that India vs Pakistan is not a Hindu Muslim conflict or that Ram Mandir vs Babri Masjid is not a Hindu Muslim conflict.
Yes it is.
I’m not even going to try and justify that answer.
The hardest thing to explain is the stunningly obvious.
The superstitious fatalism that is engendered by rituals and prayers (which are basically rituals without coconuts) has compromised mankind’s ability to solve our most critical global problems.
Religion has fought and burnt scientists right from the time that Copernicus said the Earth revolved around the Sun to Darwin’s theory of evolution and beyond.
Genetically modified food that could solve hunger has been resisted for ‘playing God’. As have potentially life saving vaccines. The belief that the world is 6,000 years old has led to people discounting historical evidence that indicates the world is heating up due to man’s activities, making it harder to convince nations to collaborate to stop global warming that could lead to killer floods, hurricanes, desertification, and droughts.
Religious texts have codified and systemized the domination and subjugation of women and homosexuals. It is only religion that could have a man justify throwing acid in a woman’s face for not dressing modestly enough. It is only religion that can have a person be seen as a moral person in his community for throwing a gay person off a high building. It is only religion that can have an entire community cover up the sexual predating of babas and priests. And only religion that could lead to people taking out marches in favour of paedophile rapists.
It’s not one or two crazy people misunderstanding a few ambiguous texts.
It is an insanity that billions of people have embraced over thousands of years in every continent.
Human sacrifice of Aztecs in Meso America
Burning of witches in Europe
Killing of albinos in Africa.
Pushing widows onto the pyres of their husband in the Indian subcontinent.
Seriously?
Even today there are millions, perhaps billions who revere Abraham/Ibrahim for being willing to make a human sacrifice of his son to God.
I’m going to repeat this to make it as clear as I can to the wilfully blind.
There are religious festivals that CELEBRATE HIS WILLINGNESS TO MAKE A HUMAN SACRIFICE OF HIS CHILD.
And the religious people who hold onto a semblance of sanity are only becoming more rational because of the secularization of the world. Which only became secularized because the first countries who started moving, even slightly, away from religion, easily conquered and enslaved the entire planet.
Today the most successful, prosperous, peaceful, educated, healthiest, least corrupt countries are the ones with the least amount of religion.
Statistically.
Well unless you have a trillion dollars of oil under your land that can satiate the citizenry and buy you the American’s military support in ensuring your government is stable.
We don’t have that luxury.
Some people will say that it’s because there are some religious people don’t understand the deep wisdom in the texts.
Well they’ve had ten thousand years to figure it out.
And it’s not that complicated.
Do what makes you happy as long as it doesn’t violate others’ human rights. Be wary of addictions. Take care of the environment.
How hard is that?
Only religion could mangle those simple learnings, comprehensible to a five year old, into hundreds of thousands of pages of gibberish text so confusing that people could literally interpret them as injunctions to fly a plane into a building.
This is only the very tip of the iceberg.
I coach people every day and the real suffering occurs on a day to day basis as people live with feelings of guilt, and unworthiness and powerlessness – wondering what sin they did in their past lives to be so poor, or why God gave them a husband who beats them, or praying for better marks in exams.
There are people in love who cannot marry the person they want to spend their lives with, because they belong to a different religion or caste. They are forced to choose between love and family. The two sources of greatest potential joy in our life tear them apart – because of the pure unadulterated divisiveness of religion.
What a waste of the one infinitely precious life we have to live.
Religions cannot sustainably live together.
It always has led to conflict and the only reason it is decreasing now is that people are less religious than they used to be. Because it’s no longer considered ok to kill and enslave people who hold different beliefs from you, they have now settled for advocating against free speech on grounds of fragile religious sentiments – ‘I won’t attack your delusion if you wont’ attack mine’.
As if seeking answers to our most fundamental questions through discussion, debate, and argument was a goal of no value.
As if truth itself was a dispensable triviality.
But there will always be those people who will not settle for this.
Because all religions contain dogmatic doctrines that are considered universally applicable to everyone, and that cannot be resolved through evidence based rationality. And since reality cannot be used as an arbitrator for delusional people, the dispute comes down to ‘my strength of faith’ versus ‘your strength of faith’.
Believing something without adequate evidence is labelled as ‘faith’, and is actually preached as an admirable virtue.
A talking warrior monkey that can jump over a sea? A man living in the stomach of a whale? Walking on water? A talking snake? A flying donkey? Bringing a dead man back to life by smacking him with a piece of raw beef?
There are people in mental asylums who have less outlandish delusions.
But this is the sort of nonsense that Hinduism, Christianity, and Islam tells us is true, and honestly, ‘stupid’ is too kind a word to describe it.
Because rational discussion is no longer possible for people who are indoctrinated into these absurdities as toddlers, there will always be violent extremists who commit atrocities.
And who will be supported actively or passively by their co-religionists who claim it has nothing to do with religion.
Like the hundreds of millions of Indians who voted for a genocidal sociopath because he spent five thousand crores of money putting up hoardings saying ‘Proud to be Hindu’.
It’s all madness.
People ask me why I’m so opposed to religion.
And why I want it out of my country.
But the hardest thing to explain is the stunningly obvious.
#Humanism
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sanjana
August 26, 2018
We need criticism to wake up. We just cant brush them aside. Films like Kaala deal with it. Should we not discuss Kaala as a film? A healthy debate wont harm anyone unless one takes everything personally.
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Krish
August 26, 2018
@Arjun “And when they convert, they also happen to gain access to quality education, health care and social mobility”
I am not sure this is the case all the time. There seem to be subsects and divides even within the egalitarian religions:
https://scroll.in/article/876000/is-the-caste-system-deep-rooted-among-christians-in-india-a-kerala-bishop-stirs-up-a-hornets-nest
I am not trying to shame any religion here. Just saying that the fallacies of us humans percolates into everything and no institution is immune.
Your comments here and the Kaala thread have been quite enlightening.
But I doubt whether such vitriolic comments against a single community is going to lead any meaningful dialogue.
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sanjana
August 26, 2018
The problem is that if religion stops existing, the space will be occupied by cults and that is even more frightful. Even highly educated people want guidance and gurus. Humanism and devilism exist together and we dont know when one takes over from the other. And apart from all these we worship fanatically filmstars and politicians. I feel religion is not such a bad thing if it is practised with some common sense.
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raghavan0418
August 26, 2018
@venky thanks for sharing the article from the Wire. I saw an interview with TMK on NDTV where he says much the same. So, again, IMHO, no harm was intended or done.
To those rambling about Vedas, etc., I would most certainly agree too that Brahmins appropriated Carnatic music and Bharata Natyam dance once they learned the British were providing patronage to these art forms. Could it be too that Brahmins patronized Vedas under the same or similar pretext?
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raghavan0418
August 26, 2018
https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-features/tp-fridayreview/the-unsung-trinity/article5733699.ece
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jaga_jaga
August 26, 2018
@Arjun – I presume the Brahmin community is highly indebted to your slanderous and vile remarks! So long as such blatant abuse exists, the Brahmins have nothing to fear or worry about!
I understand the “jerk off” part. Likely an honest outburst of your emotion to get through your point. Which is very well taken.
But the other one, I presume was written in jest? If you can kindly confirm that you actually believe all that you wrote – about the undisputed largesse of the later Abrahamic faiths, and the complete meanness masquerading as Brahminism, it would be a pleasure to take the argument forward!
@ Raghavan0418 – A great question! The best person to answer this is Prof. Micheal Wetzel in the following article:
Click to access vedica.pdf
Brahmins may not entirely like what he says, but his research is very erudite, and he appropriately backs up his claims. The BJP and Bhakts might of course be entirely angered.
He had a famous debate once with Prof. Iravatam Mahadevan, when he presented views entirely opposite to that of Prof. Mahadevan, but begain by saying something like: “The greatness of this nation lies in the sampradaya of civilized debate. I just present my view points with utmost respect to the sentiments of the people without any compromise in the quality of my scholarship”
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Enigma
August 27, 2018
People who wallow in self pity and refuse to take responsibility for their actions constantly blame the others for their misfortune. That is what the DKites and their allies are doing, blaming the Brahmins even now. Despite all the reservation policy and the social engineering that has happened, they still continue to blame the Brahmins. If the blacks can reconcile with the whites in South Africa, if the aboriginals can reconcile with the people of European descent in Australia, why not the people of Tamil Nadu? I think that it is possible and is happening, but DKites and their allies are trying their best to prevent it.
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raghavan0418
August 27, 2018
Thanks @jaga_jaga for the link to the article. I am a “bhakth” and a Brahmin, and I am more impressed than hurt by this systematic study.
I must say I am all the more impressed by the sheer number of emotionally surcharged posts on this subject, and I feel a debt of gratitude to Baradwaj Rangan for allowing this forum to be place for this.
As such, it is to be noted that the stratified and complex nature of Vedism is a hard fit in today’s world. It is left in the hands of purists who, understandably, find the pluralistic world of today threatening to this structured approach to life.
Personally I find solace in my own mentors, role models, and spiritual teachers who introduced the more fluid devotional/humanistic sentiment of what they affectionately call “ten murai” or the Tamil Tradition. Much can be said on the simpler, holistic observations on life and human nature which results in hope and good wishes to all human beings, irrespective of religious or caste affuliation. Sadly, the beauty of the Azhwars, Nayanmars and Oduvars have fallen second to thoughts of papam, punyam, joshiyam etc., under the guise of Hinduism.
I take solace in the words of the same teachers who emphatically state that with His Blessing, all will know the Unconditional Love of a Supreme Being who believes not in the protocols of religion, but in the callings of the heart.
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Arjun
August 27, 2018
“Brangan, i know you dont like to censor stuff, but i hope you use your discretion to moderate comments like these out. one can easily ignore stuff like these ,”
Perhaps I could have held back from that statement, but Brahminical angst over lower castes converting to Chrisitnaity or Islam always gets my goat. It’s not like these people are genuinely working toward their upliftment anyway, so why do they get so perturbed if Christian missionaries or others fill the vacuum. This is very much like that of the BJP govt’s attitude of not providing enough financial aid to Kerala and at the same time preventing them from accepting assistance from UAE.
@Madan: I confess I am not very familiar with the socio politics of the northern states, although I’ll admit I’ve heard that these days the brahmin-non brahmin gulf is not so vast there. So yes, for the purpose of this thread, you can assume that when I say brahmin, I mean tamil brahmin.
“I am not sure this is the case all the time. There seem to be subsects and divides even within the egalitarian religions:
https://scroll.in/article/876000/is-the-caste-system-deep-rooted-among-christians-in-india-a-kerala-bishop-stirs-up-a-hornets-nest”
Yes, caste exists among christians, but it is an inherited issue from Hinduism and not something intrinsic to christianity. In a few generations it will dissipate away as it has in the case of Indian muslims. Thol Thirumavalavan, if you’ve heard, was recently conferred a doctorate by Manonmniam Sundaranar university for his thesis on the famous mass conversion of Dalits to Muslims in Meenakshipuram. His research establishes that the conversion decidedly improved the social status and upward mobility of the dalits. He notes how the upper caste villagers, after the conversion started to treat the erstwhile Hindu dalits with much more respect, addressing them as Bhai, where they earlier casually used caste slurs. Conversion to Christianity and the educational opportunities that opened up also helped the Nadars and Shanars who used to be regarded as untouchables, achieve upward social mobility in the late 19th, early 20th century. So yes, you can cite these instances of discrimination within Christianity and Islam, (which no doubt exist, but to a much lesser degree than Hinduism), but overall, converting is the best antidote for Dalits and other lower castes to escape the wretched caste structure of Hinduism.
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vinjk
August 27, 2018
“I would advocate for the Hindu right to instead also adopt gospel music and perform it with English lyrics written in praise of Rama or Hanuman, with references to their strength/ability to vanquish invaders.If nothing else, but to see just how comfortable the free speech advocates really are with free speech that doesn’t agree with their values. ”
This is comedy gold! And Madan, I like the emphasis on the language of the lyrics, English, as if Christianity is from some English-speaking part of the world.
I’m not a believer but I come from a Christian family. I can tell you, if you put gospel music to your bhajans, most Christians would take it as a sign of honour and acceptance of their culture. Only small-minded people would be offended by this. Seriously why would anyone be offended by it?!
Few years ago, I realized that at the bottom of the cross symbol for Syrian Christian churches is a lotus to signify the principle learned from Indian Buddhism and Hinduism.
https://goo.gl/images/CY3DGe
Go to any Indian orthodox church, you will find a kodi maram (similar to one in a Hindu temple). People are proud to say that they are part of Indian culture.
To compare this assimilation of culture to invasion and appropriation to totally miss the point and in fact, it is ignorance on the part of the commenter or maybe even deliberate twisting of facts and history.
Madan, your comments are generally sensible and balanced and well thought out. But this thread kind of exposes your parochial and immature thinking. Assholes (like your driver) are present everywhere irrespectively of religion, nationality….but don’t generalise those traits to everyone from their tribe.
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Enigma
August 27, 2018
People always leave religions, that is natural. The other side of the valley being green and all that:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaving_Islam
People who think that there is no discrimination in Islam are deluding themselves.
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Prakash Alagarsamy
August 27, 2018
@Tonks, very nice post. But without religion how do we explain morality. What is the point of being good. What if everyone becomes atheists and nobody cares about consequences??
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Garvit Sharma
August 27, 2018
This comment is in reference to @Arjun here praising Christian missionaries and other like-organaisations for their humanitarian work in comparison to Brahmins.
Statements like these are made without taking into account how these organisations acquired their resources in India. Christian missionaries’ educational institutions already had a head-start because of Industrial revolution , (its just another story that scientists who brought about these had to always circumvent the Christian laws of their time). Translation of these new discoveries and scientific texts was never allowed by any European power and these Christian missionaries, who according to their own charters, were supposed to serve humanity obeyed and transmission of this new knowledge became ever harder to obtain for the subcontinent,
Second, is how the land was allocated to these Christian missionaries. This is a difference which any of you can notice even today very easily in all of India. The schools run by these missionaries were given leases from 50 years to even 100 years. For example, my school was given a lease of 75 years in 1930s. The land grants given to them were in prime locations in hill stations and in plains large enough to have two playgrounds, one for kindergarten and one a senior playground. So in addition to the knowledge texts, these schools had a headstart when it came to physical resources allocated to them. Licence raj, ensured that any Hindu(primarily Banias) or Muslims had to be accredited by the colonial powers for establishing any institutions. The land grants made to them were paltry in comparison always.For example, if anyone sees history of student protests in AMU and BHU before independence, one can easily see how these protests were against the public spirit rather than with it. Though I am a libertarian, I have to be extremely thankful to the left in this country which through its spirit of internationalism and egalitarianism never let the flames of revolution from burning out.
And then there are these figments of imagination backed up by “scholarly” surveys where social conditions of people change after they convert. Really, so these scholars think that our bigots are so foolish that they can be taken in by people who convert just by changing their surnames. There is an end to dicrimination of Mr Ravi Kumar, as soon as he becomes Mr Ravi Joseph. What was offered as complimentary with conversion money, plastic surgery??
You can only escape caste by moving away physically or moving up monetarily(weak effects though). In the world I have seen, it is extremely diificult for a newly converted Christian family to remain Christian. For example, when a family is converted one has to look ahead and check scenarios for how marriages will be arranged in the future. So in addition to monetary rewards for converting, there are challenges as well, and as many families eventually return back to the Hindu fold as there are fears that convert. These christian organisations are as corrupt, both in monetary terms as well as in sexual predatory terms as any other social organisation of this land. This explains the fervour with which a newly converted person wants to proselytize his religion. He just wants that his faith be conserved by his progeny and this is extremely difficult when you are a minority. Eventually, someone of your family will end up being married to someone Hindu more than a Hindu marrying a Christian and you will be back to square one.
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Rocky
August 27, 2018
Wow…is this an extension of that website called The News Minute ?
quick question- why are Christianity and Islam so insecure – jab dekho, by force or by bribes bas convert karo ? I mean why ?
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Madan
August 27, 2018
@vijink: Sorry but I will have to agree to disagree. And it’s not about the driver; I do not take him as a proxy for all Christians nor is that the limit of my exposure to Christianity. For that matter, I can list many other instances of zealotry I have a problem with the institutionalised machinery that pursues conversion and does so by insinuating that there is something wrong with other religions. You may well deny that is the case but that is how it comes across to a non Christian. And I have a problem with institutionalised religious machinery in all religions. I have criticised hindu godmen and earned the ire of one commenter here for that. If I do THAT, I am a liberal but if I criticise another religion, I am parochial, is it? My views are what they are and maybe how sensible they are or not to a person depends on their convergence with that person’s views?
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sanjana
August 27, 2018
Most of the brahmins did not have the resources to start charitable works. Most of them depended on jobs or religious duties. We never hear stories about rich brahmins in children’s story books. The rich were from other castes and some of them were generous. Feeding the poor on occasions, giving clothes to the poor irrespective of caste affiliations. Now we have Narayana Murthys and Nandan Nilekenis who are generous and also lead simple lives inspite of being very rich.
We appreciate the work done by the missionaries in the fields of education and health. Many of us learnt many good things from them.
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Srinivas R
August 27, 2018
“What is the point of being good. What if everyone becomes atheists and nobody cares about consequences??”
If morality is dependent on consequences you may face, it’s no morality at all. It is human to be good, it is mature to enjoy your life without hurting others. It is a social duty to lend a helping hand to those who need help. There is no need to anyone to keep a watch. If one will be a decent human being only because of fear of consequences of not being good, then we live in hell. That explains how bloody messy the world is, I guess
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Srinivas R
August 27, 2018
“I have a problem with the institutionalised machinery that pursues conversion and does so by insinuating that there is something wrong with other religions” – agreed completely. The basic premise of religious conversion is the belief that one religion is superior to other, which is not very different from the thought process behind casteism.
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Arjun
August 27, 2018
“And then there are these figments of imagination backed up by “scholarly” surveys where social conditions of people change after they convert. Really, so these scholars think that our bigots are so foolish that they can be taken in by people who convert just by changing their surnames. There is an end to dicrimination of Mr Ravi Kumar, as soon as he becomes Mr Ravi Joseph. What was offered as complimentary with conversion money, plastic surgery??”
This is the typical Brahminical arrogance which sometimes prompts statements from me such as the one that Mank objected to earlier. Are you from Tamil Nadu? Are you aware that the person you so casually dismiss, namely Thirumavalavan is not merely some ivory tower “scholar” but THE most important dalit politician and thinker in Tamil Nadu? That he was awarded a PhD after years of painstaking ground research? If not I suggest that you get acquainted with him and Tamil Nadu history and politics in general before spouting off sarcastic nonsense like the above. You can start here –
https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-tamilnadu/dalit-leader-defends-mass-conversion-at-meenakshipuram/article24776004.ece
and here –
https://thenewsminute.com/article/puram-podcast-episode-1-conversation-thol-thirumavalavan-vck-leader-87120
“Christian missionaries’ educational institutions already had a head-start because of Industrial revolution ”
“The schools run by these missionaries were given leases from 50 years to even 100 years. For example, my school was given a lease of 75 years in 1930s. The land grants given to them were in prime locations in hill stations and in plains large enough to have two playgrounds, one for kindergarten and one a senior playground.”
Ok, so what about before the British arrived? Were Brahmins sharing the (albeit useless) knowledge of Vedas, Nyaya, Mimamsa, vyaakarana etc with Dalits and OBCs? Before TM Krishna, did they ever bother to share and propagate widely the appropriated tradition of Carnatic music among the common people? No, they were happy restricting it to a handful of Brahmin sabhas in Mylapore. Did they allow Dalits inside temples or permit them to own land and build their own institutions? It’s always easier to blame the British or Muslims for all problems rather than introspect.
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Enigma
August 28, 2018
Without Vedas:
•No Brahmasutras, to clarify rituals
•No Buddhism, to overcome shortcomings of Vedic practice
•No Upanishads, to clarify the philosophical essence of Vedas
•No Christ, who seemed to translate the core Dharmic messages to the Levant (I may be stretching a wee bit here)
•No Vedanta, which developed abstract philosophical concepts from all the above
•No maths, astronomy and scientific concepts which came from the above
•No Puranas
•No Islam, which reacted to all of the above
•No Sikhism
If Vedas are useless, then so are Quran, Bible, The Old Testament etc.
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lastmohican
August 28, 2018
Long time lurker here –
@Arjun – Thirumavalavan is the most important Dalit thinker in TN and his PhD is after years of pain staking ground research? Shows where you stand. Pretty much hit DefCon5 in the bile-o-meter. Enuf said.
Brangan – would like to echo what Mank said earlier. This article/post does not belong to this blog (with due apologies to the author.) Only invites drivel from some users that hijacks good movie oriented discussions.
Sad to see this blog also degenerate into another forum for Brahmin-bashing. Goes with the current theme of the state’s social media climate. Secession isn’t far behind.
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brangan
August 28, 2018
lastmohican / MANK: The movie posts are for movie discussion. These guest posts, I feel, do provide some variety.
One is always free to skip these posts and stick to the movie-related ones.
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Madan
August 28, 2018
“I like the emphasis on the language of the lyrics, English, as if Christianity is from some English-speaking part of the world.” – Did not address this yesterday. In the booklet I mentioned in my earlier, one of the accounts (by a person who converted from Hinduism to Christianity) mentioned how the Hindu mantras were impossible to understand and relate to whereas the Christian prayers being in English appealed to him. I know that is not necessarily always the case because my mother studied in a Tamil christian school. But I was riffing on the notion presented in the booklet that English is more relatable (to the upper middle class section of society which it seemed to be going after).
” if you put gospel music to your bhajans, most Christians would take it as a sign of honour and acceptance of their culture. ” – I didn’t necessarily have JUST bhajans in mind but regardless I agree and if you read my comment carefully, my beef – with due apologies to bhakts offended by the unintended pun – wasn’t with Christians but the Indian Left per se. I have come across much hand wringing about a new aggressive depiction of Hanuman so I was wondering how they would react if the sort of thing I described was done and I do believe they are small minded enough to react badly to it.
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Srinivas R
August 28, 2018
“No maths, astronomy and scientific concepts which came from the above”- wow, that is a stretch, a big one.
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vinjk
August 28, 2018
@Madan, I am not aware of your views on other religions and I said your thinking is parochial not because your ire was against christians. I said that because of how you came to this mindset where every christian or majority of the christians are out to convert or insinuate members of other religions. There are people like that but that is just a small part of the community and yes, by the very nature of their zeal they are vocal. So it may seem like every christian you come across has an agenda to convert. Well read and possible well travelled people like you (i’m assuming here) generalise negative traits about community, I don’t know what else to call that- parochial and small-mindedness are the only terms that come to mind.
If you are sure of your beliefs then why does it bother you? It shouldn’t matter to you whether they insinuating or not. Can you counter their views? Or are you scared of alternate viewpoints? If you don’t have the time and patience to listen to them, what’s stopping you from asking them to fuck off?
In case you are not aware, this sort of “poaching” is very common among Christians itself. Among the old traditional churches like Catholics, Orthodox, Marthoma and so on, the zeal of the pentacostals and jehovah’s witness is an irritant. But people who are angry and want to get back at them are those who are insecure and unsure of their beliefs. They are also the ones who tend to switch sides quickly as soon as they hear “sweet” words. Till few years ago, I used to patiently listen to them for fear of offending others. But now, I don’t wait to hear them out. I let them know in clear terms that I am not interested and don’t have time for this shit.
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jaga_jaga
August 28, 2018
@ Enigma:
Vedas and “maths, astronomy and scientific concepts which came from the above”
I feel compelled to answer this, because I have heard this misconception so often.
To start with, how many of us know the meaning of the Vedas? The main-part (samhitas) of the 3 major vedas (Rig, Sama, and Yajur – both Shukla and Krishna) contain of nothing more than (a) stories of various rishis/devas/asuras/kings/brahmins/common-folk , (b) the proper way to perform various Yagnas/Havans, and (c) the way to propitiate various deities.
Next, let us take the Shakhas (branches) of these Vedas (which contain the well-known “Upanishads”). These are awesome for their philosophical content. Like really awesome, really really awesome. The stories of Bhrigu, Nachiketas et. al are very inspiring and should be of great moral value for any human. But sadly, there is no engineering or medicine here too.
But hey, didn’t I so far conveniently ignore “Atharvana Veda”? Well to begin with the “science and technology” present in it is so rudimentary that it is in no way a match for modern science (this coming from a very serious student of science who also understands his/her vedas)! And did you know that the real vedic scholars actually look condescendingly upon Atharvana veda? It is treated like this stupid foot-note, in addition to the main-text made up of the other vedas – something like a mere cook-book. What is worse is, a lot of veda-fanboys/fangirls, without even a shred of evidence claim that, there definitely is more advanced science in Atharva veda, but hey presto, very conveniently “we have lost all that was advanced, and we are left with the dummies”. Excuse me? What sort of a logic is this???
So overall, there is nothing in the Vedas which merits “rediscovery”. Such mumbo-jumbo is most often propagated by those with only a superficial knowledge of either what a “discovery” or an “invention” entails, and an even more scarce knowledge of sanskrit/vedas.
Notice that I am not against the vedas. We as Indians should be proud of their intrinsic beauty, the complicated lyrics, the astonishing fidelity associated with their sounds and syllables. The Vedas were the first concept to entirely come out of idea (include Pakistan and Afganaistan). It definitely is a fascinating saga that has been passed on to us from one generation to another for over thousands of years. But no it is not a goldmine of scientific/technological ideas waiting to be unearthed. Treat it for what it is – there is great joy in it. That’s about it! Nothing more , nothing less.
And your last line:
If Vedas are useless, then so are Quran, Bible, The Old Testament etc.
This I completely agree with! All these religious texts help in codifying our life to a certian extent. But one can as well happily live without them – which is already happening in quite a few places in the world. People refer to these texts as part of literature, and don’t use it as books to guide their lives.
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tonks
August 28, 2018
Prakash Alagarsamy : My father’s father was an atheist (a Roy-ist), and he was probably the best human being I have ever known. When you see the atrocities being committed in the name of religion, I now equate being religious as being the root of most evil in the world today.
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Vivek narain
August 28, 2018
Talking of christian missions, it should be well known that they belong to catholic church which in itself is impoverished lot. Protestants hold all the power and money and they don’t have a mission other than rule the world, and even above protestant church comes ‘church of england’ the body that governs anglicans and episcopalians. JFK the only catholic US president was bumped off unceremoniously,that shows the pathetic state of catholics worldwide. King Henry 8th actually scorned the papal authority and reduced the catholics into spent force.
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tonks
August 28, 2018
Personally I’m baffled that so many otherwise intelligent people have this blind faith in religion and a supreme being, while to me it’s been obvious from my early teens that it’s all just a fairy tale that keeps us from facing the dark, scary fact that it’s most likely that after death we go back to that nothingness that was there before we were born.
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Anuja Chandramouli
August 28, 2018
MANK: I agree with BR and think these threads are very informative and interesting. Besides this blog space has never been about only movies and I love that there is so much on the table to be picked apart. This post by Venky is really good and it is nice that he tried to present opposing arguments. However, the nature of some of the comments are beyond appalling and I don’t think Arjun’s hate – filled words merit a response though as Jaga pointed out the first part of his first comment was well made. Thanks Madan, Sanjana, and Srinivas R for the awesome observation.
As for me, I would like to point out that while I in no way support zealots with their bullying ways, it is easy enough for me to understand why Hindus are running scared in these parts or becoming increasingly fanatical. It may be the religion practised by the majority of the people here but anywhere else in the world, Hindus would constitute the minority right? Which is why it would make me happier if the liberals would back off and stop excoriating Hinduism at every turn. It is counterproductive. Btw, I am an agnostic born to a Hindu family, was educated by Catholic nuns and got my bachelor’s degree in an institution run by Protestants and I write books on Indian mythology and Hindu goods, though I have also attended mass, read the Bible and portions of the Quran and have brushed up on Sufi mysticism. I love that despite everything these things happen only in India.
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Rahini David
August 28, 2018
Wow, you have a “smoking shall not be banned” policy and a “Feel free to bring dynamite if you feel like it” policy.
It is so not going to be pretty. But then again, this conversation is happening all around the world in related YouTube videos and unrelated YouTube videos. So why not here?
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MANK
August 28, 2018
Brangan, its not the question of me skipping it or me not liking it. i usually ignore posts and comments that i am not interested in. I have no problems if you want the blog to have some variety , we do discuss all sorts of stuff here.I am just concerned about the kind of dialogue that these kind of posts spawn and perhaps you should be too, because i dont think the repercussions would remain confined to this thread alone, it might affect the overall blog . there is nothing like religion to get people riled up.
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Srinivas R
August 28, 2018
@lastmohican – would be interested to know why you think Thirumamalavan is not such a big deal ( that’s what i interpreted from your comment). I hardly follow dalit politics, but to me he looks like a strong voice against casteism and he actually is not very keen on tamil nationalism in that podcast.
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Srinivas R
August 28, 2018
“.. would make me happier if the liberals would back off and stop excoriating Hinduism at every turn” – not sure that is the case in this thread or anywhere else really, just a few long held beliefs ( beef eating, casteism etc.) being questioned vigorously and yes i guess some people cross the line of decency while taking on these issues. The other factor is that all over the world right wing fanatics of all religious hues have become very vocal and strong ( politically and financially). So, there is a sea of hatred spilling all over the interwebz.
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Venky
August 28, 2018
I’ve been traveling for the last few days, and haven’t been able to catch up with the comments, here. Thank you Anuja for your comments! I chose to share this blog here, because this place seemed like a good space to have a dialogue among those who have diverse views ( to put it mildly) across the ideological spectrum. And so, thanks BR for letting me publish this here.
Before I respond to comments individually, I wanted to share this dialogue stretch that evoked me in Netflix series’ Sacred Games. I found it quite fascinating, summing up how religion works itself in all its sacred and profane ways.
In a way, Sacred Games meditates over the janus-faced nature of religion. How it binds and divides us. How it uplifts and crushes the human spirit. How it drives saints and sinners to bliss and madness. Here is that dialogue stretch from 8th episode between Gaitonde and his wife.
Gaitonde: Only the weak need God.
Subadhra: When did weakness become a crime?
Gaitonde: Dharm is the biggest business of the world. They exploit the fear of God and make fools of people.
Subadhra: The Poor don’t fear, but love God. He gives them strength. This business that you talk about, it is only for the rich and the elite. All the poor do is they work their ass off. They wash other’s cars, houses and toilets. They are only welcomed at temples.
They dance in the streets in abandon to loud music played in front of Lord Ganesh not to please the Lord. They dance because that’s the only day, their dharm gives them freedom. Society doesn’t let them dance in nightclubs. On that day alone, the entire city becomes their dance floor. On that day alone, they feel the city belongs to them. On that day alone, they feel they are equal to everyone in the city. On that day alone, they realize they are not dickheads, but humans.
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Rahini David
August 28, 2018
Prakash Alagarsamy: Morality and being religious have nothing to do with each other.
I apostated from Christianity about a decade back. Not because I met good Athiests or endured bad Christians but because the stories I was expected to believe literally weren’t very believable.
But even otherwise a person being moral is NOT dependent on whether they are afraid of a big judge who will ask them why they stole that apple in that fruit shop.
Forget statistics. Look at the people you deem good and those you deem bad. Is divine retribution and reward the reason why people are good. Is “not fearing God” the reason why rapes and murders happen?
Think about the last time you did a selfless act. Does it feel better to think, “I fed that child and her face lit up after she finished eating” or “Good, God will reward me after my death” ?
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Enigma
August 28, 2018
@jaga_jaga and Srinivas R, I should have mentioned those were not my words but of western Vedic scholars (not Hindus). The more important point is Vedas, Quran, Bible are all religious texts – you cannot treat one as meaningless and the others as scientifically vetted documents. The other important issue is that it is the DK thugs who are responsible for the bigotry against Brahmins. These DK goons did nothing to prevent attacks by vanniars and thevars on the Dalits. DK lowlifes continue to attack Brahmins just to stay in the news.
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Madan
August 28, 2018
@vijink: I never said that majority, much less all Christians, have a missionary zeal to convert. In fact, I even allowed in my comment that maybe other proselytizers behaved differently from the ones I had met. I also said right at the beginning that I was talking about cases where somebody from a minority community does not demonstrate secular values and the left/liberal side’s soft pedalling of it.
I will also give due consideration to the fact that my observations would have touched a raw nerve for you as a Christian and am sorry if I hurt your feelings. But I didn’t say what all you think I said. I never make generalised attacks and rather pull up people who generalise. I did say that I distrust anything that goes by the name of Christian organisation. Because I don’t like organised religion per se. Needless to say, a zealous missionary on a conversion spree flush with foreign funds is still a lesser evil to me (and a force of some good at least) compared to a Hindu Sanathan Sanstha.
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Madan
August 28, 2018
Every time I think about a possible atheist utopia, I remember the Soviet Union and Mao’s China. So, while religion provides an all too easy pretext for violence, the real problem is the authoritarian streak within our species. It is that quality which is so destructive and, together with greed, the root of all evil. And as we the people get more and more greedy and consumerist in our outlook, we see more authoritarians in power whether that be in govt or as head honchos of big biz. Isn’t it a paradox that even after coming out of school, we still long for that strict headmaster to read out the riot act to ‘lazy fuckers’ (to imitate the typical economic conservative vocabulary) and naively delude ourselves into believing that as the bright and obedient students, nothing will happen to us for isn’t our brilliance so evident to the headmaster too? And then Modi handed out classroom punishment to all and we still rejoiced, choosing to believe the culprits would finally be brought to book when in fact they simply sent their drivers or security staff to stand in the queue? What will it take for people to trust the power of cooperation? Only then will all hate and violence be truly wiped out from the planet. Else we will only be replacing one ism with another as it panned out in the Soviet Union.
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raghavan0418
August 29, 2018
With regards to the Vedas, our priests in temples chant a tiny portion of them. I would be hard-pressed to say how many actual understand them. But, ours is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because someone hates Brahmins, one shouldn’t use that to hate God.
Thirumal, Muthumari, and Murugan were spoken about long before there was Sanskrit and Iyers. They were seen to embody aram – affection and benevolent towards us – such that they required nothing more than simple acceptance of such good qualities. The use of that acceptance such that one would seek to benefit society as a whole – rather than shouting out sociopathic fears – would result in betterment of our lives and that of others.
If we could only get past our billeousnes to reflect on that.
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vinjk
August 29, 2018
@madan
Your comments about Christians hasn’t hit a raw nerve in me. I am quite secure in my non-belief in any religion and superstition. I feel the same about all the comments made about Brahmins here on this blog. Basically i just hate this sort of blanket criticism about anything and anyone with zero nuance. But I don’t know much abt Brahmins but I know about Christians and hence I ventured to comment about it.
I understand your viewpoint and I might have misunderstood your comments. Online discussion is not the best place/format to debate a topic.
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Rm
August 29, 2018
“So, while religion provides an all too easy pretext for violence, the real problem is the authoritarian streak within our species. ”
Bang on. Even if religions are completely abolished in the coming centuries, humans will still fight and indulge in violence for one reason or the other.
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Rm
August 29, 2018
“Personally I’m baffled that so many otherwise intelligent people have this blind faith in religion and a supreme being,”
With all due respects, what has intelligence got to do anything with religious belief? Going by the popular description of atheism “I do not believe in a God, because there is not reason for me to believe so, in the lack of any logical/rational/scientific evidence.” But should that mean, I consider those who believe otherwise are not intelligent? If belief in a supreme being, without any scientific evidence or otherwise is considered not so intelligent and close minded, then atheism, with an absolute conviction still without a lack of evidence, that there is no higher order at work in place in the cosmic scheme of things, is close minded as well.
But if you are talking about lack of intelligence as in claiming self-supremacy, then it is a different thing.
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Rahini David
August 29, 2018
Athiesm isnt about being closed minded. Nobody says that theyd not believe God even if he/she appeared and stood up in glory with flaming hair and loving eyes.
We just notice that religious people get very offended that we dont believe unbelievable things like the earth being 6000 years old and a day older than the sun.
It is just that we are largely unimpressed with the “proof”. When someone says “I was so depressed that I contemplated suicide, I just decided to cry and pray. The next day I felt hope and I carved a career from that day which changed my life”, I am extremely happy things worked out for him.
But at the end of the day I do wonder why an otherwise intellegent man believes unbelievable mythology as literal truth. What is so believable or even positive or moral about that story of walls of Jericho?
Why am I “evil” for not believing a massacre is a positive thing?
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Madan
August 29, 2018
“Basically i just hate this sort of blanket criticism about anything and anyone with zero nuance. ” – Sure but I didn’t indulge in it. I only mentioned those anecdotes as the sort of thing that the left would want us to never mention as part of their political correctness doctrine.
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Vivek narain
August 30, 2018
Elon Musk and scientists of his ilk in Silicon Valley believe that,what we experience as reality is in fact a giant computer simulation, created by advanced intelligent superiors. Earth is not real,we are like the pixels of a video game. Those programming and operating the simulation,the matrix,are Gods. Musk would like to be the Neo,and break the matrix,and he’s actually putting his billions to the task.
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varshaganesh
August 30, 2018
Rm – Some scientific articles that talk about a direct correlation between atheism and intelligence:
https://neurosciencenews.com/religion-atheism-intelligence-8391/
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0190272510361602
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289608000238
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Madan
August 30, 2018
Rm: One does not need to prove that a higher cosmos does not exist because there is no proof that it does other than the claims of spiritual or religious people. And since they have competing claims and myths, it is confusing as to which is the truth out of them all. So if you want to be very particular, it’s more that there is no proof that God exists so why should one be asked to believe something without proof. If a bank claimed they have transferred money to your account but your account balance remains unchanged, would you accept a faith claim on their part or demand evidence that they did execute the transfer? Some atheists extend this further to say God does not exist. They say God does not exist because they see no physical evidence of his existence. This is the problem for spiritualists because all they can say in response is that if you believe hard enough, you too will see God as we did. Well, then, isn’t that psychologically speaking a dream or hallucination or delusion? I don’t question that they did have that dream. But maybe it IS just a dream, a dream which pushed them to a spiritual calling. Just the way McCartney got Yesterday in a dream.
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Anu Warrier
August 30, 2018
They say God does not exist because they see no physical evidence of his existence.
Disclaimer 1: I am an atheist. Religious dogma has no appeal for me. Lesser still does organised religion appeal.
DIsclaimer 2: This is not an argument or a negation of your post. Just riffing off a point that’s always struck me as silly.
That said, I always have a bone to pick with my fellow atheists when they pull out this argument – if you are arguing that something billions of people belive in, doesn’t exist, isn’t the onus of proof on you to prove the non-existence of such a being? Can you prove a negative? How do you prove ‘God’ (or whatever you want to call him/her/it) doesn’t exist?
I find the virulent atheist (the ones who mock ‘that pyjama-clad figure in the sky’ for instance) as inherently distasteful as the proselytising believer. I find it distressing when either side takes allegorical tales as literal and use it to either mock the other or to influence public policy.
Speaking for myself, I can only say that I have no faith in God or religion. It doesn’t make one whit of a difference to me that someone else has an equally strong belief in either or both. My only issue comes when they believe my ‘ungodliness’ has to be cured – by a conversion to their point of view.
And yet, culture and upbringing plays a huge part in the way I conduct myself – for instance, on a recent trip to India, a dear friend had come to visit me. I wanted to show her around one of our famous temples – a World Heritage site. The day before, I was informed that since one of our distant relatives in my mother’s family had died, we had the 13-day embargo against visiting the temple. Could I have still entered the temple since my lack of belief meant the temple was just another tourist attraction? Sure. But I couldn’t. I sent my husband as her guide. I’m still not sure why it was so difficult for me to break tradition / social mores.
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Madan
August 30, 2018
“if you are arguing that something billions of people belive in, doesn’t exist, isn’t the onus of proof on you to prove the non-existence of such a being? ” – OK – and again, just riffing on this idea, not trying to argue – if a lot of people BELIEVE black cats bring bad luck, does their belief alone make it true? I am putting the emphasis on the word BELIEF here. I can believe a lot of things but that does not make them true unless I CAN produce evidence to show that it exists. So I would say the burden of proof is always on the person stating the belief. The person expressing disbelief is merely being skeptical and in my view is not under any burden to prove anything. Does the collective belief of millions by itself lend credibility to it? I don’t think so. Otherwise, the belief of a billion people that demonetisation is a success would make it so. Does factual refutation of the success claim seem to shake their belief? No. Which shows that when it comes to BELIEFS, objectivity goes out of the window anyway.
That said, I am not necessarily an atheist and was only responding to Rm’s argument there. I am more of an agnostic/pantheist/posttheist depending on my mood; I often feel this question is way less important than we the human race have made it out to be. If there is an omnipresent, all powerful God, I am in any case powerless next to him so why should I care whether he exists and whether he exists the way Islam formulated him or the way Hinduism did? But yeah, culturally, I am a Hindu. I was born into Hinduism and at least the way my family practiced it, I could carry it lightly so I have continued to do so. Maybe one day when hardline Hindutva takes firm root and becomes the mainstream, I would have to ask myself if I still identify as a Hindu.
Now to come back to the God does not exist formulation, if believers did NOT claim that God is omnipresent, then, yes, there would be a burden of proof on the atheist to demonstrate that God indeed does not exist. Since they say he does, therefore he ought to be evident to ANYONE. Believers also do not claim some other creator and not God created the atheists. Ergo, God’s presence ought to be evident to atheists too irrespective of whether they believe that this evident being is divine or holy. That is not the case. I see religion and God-faith as basically a societal/cultural narrative that is handed down from generation to generation and for the past several centuries, we seem to have believed that God-faith is necessary to bring people together as a clan. There is now a significant minority that challenges that notion but the debate in a cultural sense remains unresolved. Which brings me to:
“I find the virulent atheist (the ones who mock ‘that pyjama-clad figure in the sky’ for instance) as inherently distasteful as the proselytising believer. I” – Agreed.
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jaga_jaga
August 31, 2018
man, Madan! You are a champion commentor man! Just how do you find the time for writing Ifrequent, detailed, and meaningful stuff! `
I want to comment so much on so much more, but given the constraint called work, all I am left with is only heart to listen to my ideas…
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Anu Warrier
August 31, 2018
I am more of an agnostic/pantheist/posttheist depending on my mood;
I can empathise; yes, I veer between agnostic and atheist most times. Like you, I’m born a Hindu. I will live and die one, but I will define my own Hinduism for myself.
Maybe one day when hardline Hindutva takes firm root and becomes the mainstream, I would have to ask myself if I still identify as a Hindu.
Agreed. With the caveat that since they do not speak for me, and I still get to define my Hinduism for myself, I will continue to identify as ‘my sort of Hindu’. After all, amongst all the religions in the world, Hinduism is the only religion that accepts atheism as a path towards self-realisataion (or ‘moksha’ in the parlance of the believer).
I know you don’t like him much, but if you get your hands on it, read Tharoor’s Why I’m a Hindu. I’d be interested in your views on it. 🙂
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Uncouth Village Youth
August 31, 2018
I hate the pseudo atheists who camouflage their religious slant with vague Osho/Sri Sri/Joel Osteen style ramblings, more than the virulent faithful. The latter are idiots who can be lead to the truth with some effort, but the former are trying to pull off a day light robbery on top of being intolerable like Uriah Heep. They will humbly state that a Supreme power guides all of us.They will humbly question how life is possible in this vast galaxy without the benevolence of the One, probability be damned. They will humbly talk about vague stuff like moksha,karma, divinity,spirituality etc etc… I can go on and on but I humbly stop here. Beware.
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Rm
August 31, 2018
@Madan:
I see your responses and the burden of proof lying with the one which claims the existence of divinity. My foremost trigger to the first response was on the basis of a statement which went something like why do people who are otherwise intelligent blinded by beliefs? It was also added that we all came from nothingness and we will probably go back there after our end.
Why did I call out the first statement and not the second. For the second statement I could have very well said, this is what my/most religious beliefs say regarding cycle of birth and death and what you said is not agreeable. And my statement is also not based on “if you truly believe, you will see divinity” or “if you try and pray really hard you will see that divinity exists” types.
Each person has his/her own views about what life,existence and the end is, Some base it on probability, randomness and the cause/effect or action/reaction scheme of things in cosmos and some base it on their religious beliefs. You say you sometimes believe in pantheism and it would be unfair of me to come and rubbish your ‘this idea of religious belief’, just because I cannot see it from your perspective, cycle of experiences that led you to believe this way. In the same way, just because a person believes in existence of a supreme being and prays to it, it would definitely not be fair to question their intelligence because of it. Ofcourse yes, if they impose their superstition on others and try to spread influence because of it and force others to act/change their views it would not be fair. As long as it is not done, and as long as they are keeping it to themselves, without affecting others, why is this a problem. Someone took efforts to share some links on how religiosity has a direct correlation to intelligence/IQ level, thanks to that but I call BS on that because I know of a lot of people, cutting across religions, who are very pious and devoted, AND ALSO very smart and intelligent in everyday walks of their personal and professional lives. I have seen these people excelling in competitive exams, getting placed in top institutions and passing on with flying colours. In the brahminism debates that happen in this forum, don’t we see people sometimes saying brahmins are endowed with nothing special, and aptitude has got nothing to do with being religiously pious and it is something that cuts across people of all cast and creed. If we accept this, why is there a need to again associate intelligence with belief to suit another argument.
In atheism vs theism debates in social media, non-believers come out all attacking on believers, but I see them sharing memes and posts that wonder over possibilities like what if this entire cosmos is located in the eye of a dragon/some fancy concepts based on parallel universe/ the concept of God and ‘ancient alien’. i am not against it, but I am tempted to ask them why endorse them/ not even hold back pondering over them without a claim of even a teeny weeny bit of evidence?
@vivek narain: IMHO, your comment is not without merit. I did a google search of “Matrix upanishad”, and this is what it came up with:I am not sure about the veracity, but I remember reading the same in more than one place from long back.
“Revolutions soundtrack Edit. When Don Davis suggested to the Wachowskis that a text be used by the choir for The Matrix Revolutions’ soundtrack, ideally in a dead language, the Wachowskis selected a number of verses from the Upanishads, which reflect the Matrix philosophy.”
My religious belief/pondering is mostly towards the philosophy of Advaitha.
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Madan
August 31, 2018
Rm: Sure, no disagreement on that many religious people are in fact intelligent. I know because I have met them and some of them happen to be family. I did not bring up that point because I saw that commenter posting links to argue there is correlation between atheism and intelligence. Ok fine then, nothing to debate, mind’s made up. If it makes atheists feel better to know they are more intelligent, let them have their victory, is my take. It’s an inconsequential point. If I am not mistaken, Obama swore in the name of God for the presidential oath. Is he not intelligent? Or is he a hypocrite who masked latent atheism to get the American people to vote for him? Which of these is it?
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Rocky
August 31, 2018
@ Anu W.
Re.- Sure. But I couldn’t. I sent my husband as her guide. I’m still not sure why it was so difficult for me to break tradition / social mores.
Well said !! and that is why when Commies make an open display of killing a cow , or coming up with weird names of films with Hindu Devi’s names, it hurts deep down.
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Anu Warrier
August 31, 2018
@Madan, re: Obama swearing in the name of God. There was a saying during Kennedy’s time that it was easier for a Catholic to become President of the United States than it would be for an atheist. (Kennedy was the first (and only) Catholic president.)
Even today, it was easier for a Black man to be President than it would be for a Catholic. Or a woman.
@ Rocky – I’m a Hindu. I’m a vegetarian. But I have no beef with someone eating beef. Simply because, in my part of the world (I’m a Keralite), many Hindus eat beef. Just because Hindus elsewhere don’t do so doesn’t make them right and the Malayali beef-eating Hindu wrong.
Someone’s wounded feelings are not everyone else’s problem. Nor do they have a God-given right to beat, kill, or shame someone for doing something that they think is against their beliefs.
In the example I gave, and which you reference, it is something I felt deep down and that I did – just because that’s the way I feel about that particular tradition doesn’t mean that someone else should feel the same way about it. Finally, it’s a matter of personal choice.
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Rocky
September 1, 2018
@Anu- Re,-In the example I gave, and which you reference, it is something I felt deep down and that I did
May be I was not clear enough or may be you just had a beef with me referencing killing of Cow related to your statement, making you defensive ( sorry about that , I know its a big no-no in Kerela) but -I was saying exactly the same thing . I “personally” did NOT like the public spectacle made of killing a cow on the streets of Kerela, because I ( emphasize “I”) was brought up in a house where the first roti goes to a cow every single day.
Baaki jo marzee jo karey , saanu kee, I have no pork tey no beef !!!
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Madan
September 1, 2018
@Anu Warrier: Yeah, the curious history of USA. All male and mostly Protestant Presidents. Obama was the first black and still of mixed parentage which Biden wasted no time in noting. And had Obama not converted to Christianity, he would have had no chance to become President. A nation that is very rigid when it comes to choosing its leaders.
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Vivek narain
September 1, 2018
Infact the most powerful presidents of US belong to episcopalian church,the american branch of, church of england. And when america and britain have concurrent leaders belonging to church of england, the world sees an upheavel,like FDR-Churchill,Bush-Blair. Even the ww1 was influenced by Teddy roosevelt and Churchill.
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Eswar
September 1, 2018
A person trained in traditional music feels for a new God or switches to a new religion . He continues using the traditional music he learned to sing for this new almighty. Would this be an appropriation? Music and rituals could be a medium to reach God. When the God changes, should the medium also change? The Marathi poet N.W.Tilak wrote Christian songs in a form usually written for Hindu gods.
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Jeyamohan describes Hinduism as தொகைமதம் (Thogai Madham). I am guessing it means ‘a collection of religion or worshipping practices’. This type of religion do not have a fixed central point or a boundary. Other religious types are usually bounded by a central theme or a defined scope.
Talking about Hindu deities, Jeyamohan refers to SiruDeivangal (small deities) and PerumDeivangal (big deities). SiruDeivangal are the gods of smaller, individual communities or tribes. The likes of Karuppusamy, Neeli etc. PerumDeivangal are the likes of Sivan. When different communities or tribes start interacting they share their gods and rituals. Over a longer period of time, this results in a unified PerumDeivam. A PerumDeivam satisfying the needs of a larger, powerful community. Hinduism is such a decentralised collection of deities and practices. This fluidity and branching nature, he thinks, is Hinduism’s biggest strength. At least this is my interpretation from his writings.
Religious studies is not Jeyamohan’s profession. His view of Hinduism comes from his travels, personal experience and extensive reading. Still I find this view interesting and plausible. Their is no overarching force to dictate what such a religion’s followers should and shouldn’t do. This allows its followers to accommodate other religious practices. It also allows them to adapt to new religious practices. So they could use the existing cultural practices to praise, devote and fall in love with their new God. They could even see the new God as a manifestation of their old one.
For some, the lack of central organisation and the fluidity is the religion’s weakness. Hence there is a push to codify what Hinduism is, what its followers and believers should do and shouldn’t do. A part of this is to protect the Indian-ness/Hindu-ness from appropriation or dilution. The current issue around Carnatic music, in my view, is a facet of this protectionism. The problem with protectionism is it could destroy the very thing that it is trying to protect.
https://www.jeyamohan.in/21656
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Religions have survived for thousands of years and they are likely to prevail for a long time. I don’t think trying to uproot them is a good idea. May be we need more religions in a competitive environment. An undisturbed and unmonopolised environment where religions can be fluid, liberal and inclusive.
Religious conversion, in my view, are not about a religion’s superiority. Conversion is also about social – economic factors. Only a small percentage of people, I guess, would convert because the new God is more loving and powerful. For the rest, conversion is a step to move up in the social and economic ladder. Yes, there is no guarantee that the new religion will be of any good. Still the hope and desire to make their lives better will make them to take this step.
The questions to me are, what could the current religion or its members could have done? Do they have anything left to do? To improve these people’s lives. To make them feel included. When the current religion hasn’t, couldn’t offer enough, then would it be still wrong to convert? Is it wrong if other religions try to lure these people by promising them a more egalitarian life? How much ever true or false it is. Who owns these traditions and cultures? Can one group’s idea of culture cost another group’s social and economic mobility?
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Vairamuthu narrated an incident in his recent speech about Jeyakanthan. Vairamuthu asks Jeyakanthan, “Kadavulin Thevai Enna?” (“What is the need of God?”) Jeyakanthan thinks for a long time and asks Vairamuthu to repeat the question again. “Kadavulin Thevai Enna?”. Jeyakanthan replies or asks in return “Kalaiyin Thevai Thaan Enna?” (“What is the need of Art?”). The need of the art is the need of God. Having at least one of them makes life richer and meaningful.
I can see why people are in need of a God. Life is complex. Difficult. Miraculous. Painful. To wade through this life, people are in need of a crutch. A crutch to make sense of life. To understand Nature. To answer existential questions. Different people use different crutches. For some its the belief in God. For some its knowledge. For some its Art. For some its Love. Something else for others. But we all use a crutch from which we gain strength and balance. Which of these crutches is better is subjective. The thing to remember is to not thrust our crutch on others. To not be insensitive to other’s crutches.
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Honest Raj
September 2, 2018
The argument about ‘burden of proof lies with non-believers’ reminds me of a Vadivelu comedy.
About, three of the most widely perpetuated hoaxes:
Hinduism is not a religion but a “way of life” – People often conflate philosophy with religion. Take the philosophical part of any religion, all of them can be thought of “as a way of life”.
You can be an atheist and still be a Hindu – I’ve never understood the concept of “Hindu-atheism” at all. Atheism isn’t just about disbelief in existence of god but also rejects the doctrine of nirvana, karma, atman, et al. Simply put, if somebody doesn’t believe in the concept of moksha, why would they be interested in the “path” that leads through? (reminds me of another Vadivelu comedy).
Gita is not a religious text but a “philosophical treatise” – Will reserve it for another day.
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Anu Warrier
September 2, 2018
Eeswar, your entire post, but particularly, the last paragraph – you couldn’t have put it better. Kudos.
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Rahini David
September 2, 2018
Honest Raj, entha Vadivel comedy nu sollunga.
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sanjana
September 2, 2018
A believer need not prove anything. A non believer is a confused person. He or she tells something, feels something else and changes stance.
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Venky
September 2, 2018
@Honest Raj: “You can be an atheist and still be a Hindu – I’ve never understood the concept of “Hindu-atheism” at all. ” If you read Charvaka’s philosophy, perhaps, you may find answers. Amartya Sen, in his “Argumentative Indian” talks about Charvaka, and summarizes his philosophy (albeit, like atrue academic, dryly, I must add). I have met few seekers who proclaim their atheism by swearing on Charvaka.
How does one inquire about atheism? in my explorations so far, I find it very uncomfortable to approach it through the “believer-non-believer” frame. Either ways, you are saying, “I don’t believe this”, or “I believe this”. What is there to believe? Few bunch of myths and stories stacked up, which are often taken up literally, instead of metaphorically. If you remove beliefs, from this equation, what would be left of religion? James Carse, in his book, “The Religious Case Against Belief”, explores this train of thought, and his explorations are fascinating. I would urge you to check it out, perhaps, if you are interested.
@Eswar: Thank you for bringing Jeyamohan to this discourse. I’ve found his thoughts on Hinduism very rooted to his own self-inquiry.
“Is religion a crutch?” Irrespective of whether one agrees with this view or not, I wonder if it is even possible to make any statement “out-there” about religion. Unless one talks about one’s own journey and one’s own struggles, how can one make any true statement about religion?
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Arjun
September 2, 2018
“I “personally” did NOT like the public spectacle made of killing a cow on the streets of Kerela, because I ( emphasize “I”) was brought up in a house where the first roti goes to a cow every single day.”
I can empathize with this statement. I’ve tried dog meat while on a visit to Korea and did not find it entirely unpalatable. That doesn’t mean I’ll support public slaughter of a cuddly Pomeranian just to piss off dog lovers or PETA. At the same time, I do expect that dog lovers don’t get all judgmental about those that eat dog meat, as many holier than thou westerners do.. Dogs, cows horse, it’s all basically meat. Selective deification of one and indifference to the others is simply speciesm.
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jaga_jaga
September 2, 2018
@Sanjana – A lot of the times, that is out of politeness to the believer. Atheists and agnosts, more often than not as I have seen, don’t want to be disrespectful of some believer (of any religion or community). So out of sheer politeness, they nod their heads to make it look like they are inconsistent. They are in hindsight, the most mature people out there, who put those they love, ahead of any ideology!
Else it is very easy to be impolite, discourteous, and blunt, in making it very clear that faith in any formless/with-a-form entity, is what we MAKE UP to escape our insecurities, and to ease us from our worries about an unpredictable future.
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Honest Raj
September 2, 2018
@ Rahini David:
I think it’s from Kaakkai Siraginiley. After convincing the entire village that he can “show” them the god, he ends up saying “paavam panniteengaley da” – that he’s visible only to the eyes of those men whose wives are “paththinis”.
“Naanga yenda nadu saamathula indha kayira kattikittu adhuvum sudukaattukku vera poganum?”
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sanjana
September 2, 2018
Speciesm. Well, we should not differentiate. We humans are also meat to some species. That takes us to man eaters or woman eaters and cannibalism. This world is a big meat factory producing food for the predators.
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Honest Raj
September 2, 2018
Venky: I know somebody would quote Charvaka. The thing about the school is that they denounced everything that’s connected to religion – aatma, brahman, karma and moksha (one cannot deny that all these aspects form the core beliefs of Hinduism). The founder never associated himself with any religion. In fact, they were severely critical of the vedas and called its composers as good-for-nothing impostors. Modern Hinduism has pretty much appropriated their philosophy (like it did with Buddhism and Jainism). Including it as a school of thought (of Hindu philosophy) is an insult to them. I haven’t read the Amartya Sen book. Thanks
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Altman
September 2, 2018
“Belief system made people intelligible to one another– and that the systems weren’t just about belief.
People who live by the same code are rendered mutually predictable to one another. They act in keeping with each other’s expectations and desires. They can co-operate. They can even compete peacefully, because everyone knows what to expect from everyone else. A shared belief system, partly psychological, partly acted out, simplifies everyone–in their own eyes, and in the eyes of others. Shared beliefs simplify the world, as well, because people who know what to expect from one another can act together to tame the world. There is nothing more important than the maintenance of this organization–this simplification. If it’s threatened, the great ship of state rocks.”
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Rahini David
September 3, 2018
Honest Raj, good ones. I really like Vadivel lines but not very abreast these days.
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rsylviana
September 6, 2018
Have been wanting to read this thread for a long time and finally got done with it today . What a wonderful discussion !! I must have learnt close to 10 new words today:)
I would advocate for the Hindu right to instead also adopt gospel music and perform it with English lyrics written in praise of Rama or Hanuman, with references to their strength/ability to vanquish invaders. If nothing else, but to see just how comfortable the free speech advocates really are with free speech that doesn’t agree with their values.
@Madan – Haha. Good one! But I’m guessing it would make the Hindu right far more uncomfortable than the most hypocritical free-speech advocate.
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