I have a genuine (and somewhat abstract) question about all this, and let me begin by stating that I believe Chinmayee and others wrt to the Vairamuthu issue.
But here’s the question I have. My “belief” is a gut feel, based on my “personal” conviction that these women are telling the truth — but it’s not proof. So does the very basis of the justice system — “innocent until PROVEN guilty” — hold true?
So if someone makes a film tomorrow and hires Vairamuthu as the lyricist because he hasn’t been PROVEN guilty, would that be grounds to judge the filmmaker? This is not just about Vairamuthu, not just about Varun Grover, Nana Patekar etc. This is not about the INDIVIDUAL.
And you can also extend this to a corporate space. Let’s say someone you want to hire has all the qualifications you are looking for but comes with an (unproven) accusation like this.
You may believe the woman but are you obliged to give the man a chance on the basis that whole “innocent until proven guilty” thing?
(Same thing applies to a woman being accused of sexual harassment by a man.)
PS: Completely understand that with the time it takes for court cases and suchlike (and considering some of this may never even make it to court), a person’s guilt may never be “proved.” So as I said, this is more of an abstract, philosophical question.
Baradwaj Rangan 
brangan
October 10, 2018
That earlier thread was getting very unwieldy, so started a new thread (and a new category, called OFF THE TOPIC).
So if anyone wants to start a new topic for discussion (cinema or non-cinema, but hopefully not about the Rafale deal… please!), let me know and I’ll start a new OTT thread.
LikeLiked by 5 people
therag
October 10, 2018
The Brett Kavanaugh dilemma.
I have a question. Do sexual harassment complaints come out of left field? Or is more common for an abuser to have started out as a creep, with the individual harassment cases being the most visible parts of what is,even otherwise, pretty disgusting behavior.
LikeLike
brangan
October 10, 2018
the rag: In my experience, it’s almost always never a surprise to those in the field. To us, maybe. Because we don’t move in those circles. But I’d be very surprised if insiders did not know or at least hadn’t heard whispers.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Swati
October 10, 2018
Our politics and personal opinions mar our judgement or “gut” instinct. So Anuraag Kashyap is innocent, alok nath guilty, varun grover innocent, kangana ranaut guilty, Nana and co innocent and tanushree guilty. Our “gut” has no meaning. It is just our right wing-left leaning, politics and personal bias/friendships that come in the play. I have seen this in another space, another blog. People even judge by looks. Doesn’t she look too fat to be saying someone did this to her. Yhea. eyeroll
LikeLiked by 7 people
Swati
October 10, 2018
Tanushree, even though a B or C grade actress, former beauty queen, got this platform. Imagine what might be the plight of a small time dancer, living in slums of mumbai, in dance troupe of “masterjee” the choreographer. Or a small time actress or extra who is out there earning her day wages. Would media throw mike on their faces and ever bring out their stories? What is most gut wrenching is the stories of little kids, the recent one in Gujarat, that is heart breaking. While women are vulnerable, the kids are completely, totally powerless and innocent. That should stop at all cost. Work place harassment will remain. Even in developed nations. And Karan Johar, Sahnoo Sharma stories will also tumble out of closet in due course of time. It is not gender but power-politics. Mostly men have the power, hence it is skewed in favor of women abuse.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Anu Warrier
October 10, 2018
@the rag – not the Kavanaugh ‘dilemma’. There, there was clearcut evidence that he was lying – at least about his drinking. Corroborating evidence about his behaviour with women came from at least four other sources. None of whom the FBI questioned.
With the abstract question posed here, I will say this: Do your due diligence before you hire. Anyone with a serious allegation like this is NOT an asset to your company. It is incumbent upon the employer to provide a safe space for all employees. So any allegation needs to be investigated – on the presumption of innocence, which has to be the baseline – but with sincerity and with the intent to get to the bottom of this. But presumption of innocence doesn’t mean the person is innocent. Colour me cynical, but none of these allegations will stand up in a court of law – we have normalised such behaviour that there will always be men – and women – who will say, ‘Oh, boys will be boys!’ or ‘It happened so long ago, can’t you move on?’ And since we can’t take recourse to law, of course we hope that our peers (and his) will punish him.
As BR points out, people in the field know. Why do you think the whisper network is so prolific? We are warned – don’t get too close; don’t go to an interview; he has octopus hands; he likes pretty young things… Why don’t we say anything? Because a) Our careers are on line b) We are not believed c) We are slut-shamed (Oh, you must have done something; Oh, why do you wear such clothes? Oh, who asked you to go with him? Which respectable woman would go out so late? Why did she drink? ) and never mind that in many cases, the power imbalance makes it so we can’t refuse. Powerful men seem to think that this sort of behaviour has to be condoned, in fact, it is expected of them. Case in point: RK Pachauri.
We know the predators; we know the smooth talkers; we know. Believe me, we know. Now the tide has turned – in many of these people who have been named, their own words serve to convict them. In certain other cases (Vairamuthu, Gopi Sunder, Rajat Kapoor, etc.) corroborative evidence is coming up. When one woman has the guts to speak out, the others muster up their courage as well.
And no, this is not ‘anti-man’ or ‘feminazi’. This is just women getting tired of being ogled, objectified, pawed, and treated as pieces of meat. And of finally finding a voice to state their truths.
LikeLiked by 7 people
Rocky
October 10, 2018
Re.- So if anyone wants to start a new topic for discussion (cinema or non-cinema, but hopefully not about the Rafale deal… please!),
LOL on Rafale .
However most people making jokes about Rafale have been rendered jobless by the # MeToo movement.
P.S.- Joke hai, dil par mat lena !!!
LikeLiked by 1 person
srktugga
October 10, 2018
I don’t think vairamuthu is going to admit to this.I am sure his lawyer will handle this for him.End of story?
LikeLike
brangan
October 10, 2018
Swati: What is this Karan Johar/Shanoo Sharma allegation?
LikeLiked by 1 person
sanjana
October 10, 2018
LikeLike
Prashila
October 10, 2018
Swati, interestingly there is a blind on Pinkvilla pointing to her, SS, trending now.
https://www.pinkvilla.com/entertainment/exclusives/exclusive-guess-who-woman-alleged-sexual-harassment-production-house-428353
As for your question BR, proven innocent until guilty, is in the end the individual’s prerogative, no. What is right or wrong to them, is how the world moves. Everyone ends up going by their biases, even if clearly treading on what might be a grey path. Which side of the grey you are, (or aren’t in this case) is totally up to the person in concern.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 10, 2018
Swati: What is this Karan Johar/Shanoo Sharma allegation?
Yeah, I would like to know that, too. I think it’s more a hope that something will come out against them rather than actual news.
And by the way, Swati – no one has said Anurag Kashyap is innocent of all wrongdoing – he’s been called out for his inaction.
Varun Grover has put out a detailed statement that contradicts the allegation against him. It should be easy enough to check. Alok Nath is guilty because there is corroborating evidence that he has sexually harassed people. Navneet Nishan filed a case against him in 1993-94.
Who said anything about Kangana being guilty? Of what? Of keeping silent until now? She was only called out for that because she accused others of keeping silent. She had all the support when she came out with her accusations earlier – even without corroborative evidence to back her up.
I don’t think anyone in the know is saying Nana is innocent either. As BR points out, people in the field always know. That they choose to stay silent is a different matter altogether. He has powerful connections. And Tanushree already bore the brunt of it.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Cromagnon
October 10, 2018
A movement like this is like holding a mirror to the patriarchy and male entitlement that runs deep in our society. Playing the devil’s advocate here, how do we decide when it’s one person’s word against the other? Of course women need to be heard, but should they always be believed? Insiders may have an inkling but for a dispassionate external observer, is a person’s word enough? Especially for accusations that go back decades. The me too pendulum would swing too far initially but would find a rhythm in time, the reputations of a few innocent men may be the price to pay. Again this may be the collective punishment for the centuries of subjudication that women have been subjected to.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Sreehari
October 10, 2018
The whole problem with the #Metoo movement is the sacred-ization of women (which if you ask me, is as problematic an attitude as that propagated by those idiots who say stuff like: “Oh what the hell; all women are whores anyway.”)
The fact is that there is as much tyranny in women as there is in men. And if you begin from a point such as “All women are beings of higher order. And so just trust everything they say.” we will have issues like what poor Varun Grover faced. Not just false claims, but also bundling up of bad dates, poor hygiene, not understanding the complex state of a woman in the middle of an intercourse (Sex itself is so complex in that it often exists in a state of a woman or a man dominating the other: this is the purest form of sex we have all enjoyed, and if you think about it, it is just a degree away from being abusive) etc as ‘abuse.’ We have issues like the Vikas Bahl case, or those numerous unreported cases in rural India which are ‘real’ cases of sexual abuse, but if this movement is about assigning a SACRED position to women, it will prove to be calamitous.
And plus this, Sacred-ization, I must add, is so devoid of nuance that someone wishing to talking about it in a nuanced way gets classified as being Sexist. If discussion relating to patriotism deserve ‘Nuance,’ why not this one?
LikeLiked by 3 people
Anu Warrier
October 10, 2018
Prashila, the Pinkvilla article is talking about a woman creative producer. Shanoo is casting director; I’m not aware she’s produced anything?
(Also, just on record: this is yellow journalism of the worst kind. If a complaint has been filed, then report the person’s name. Don’t put out a ‘Guess who?’ teaser allowing your readers to malign every single person who might be the culprit.
I’m perfectly willing to believe women can be abusers as well. We are neither Devi nor whore. We are also somewhere in between.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Sreehari
October 10, 2018
My biggest fear is that a movement like this has shifted very quickly from being ‘a campaign against sexual abuse’ to being ‘a campaign about creating ideal male lovers.’ And that it should never become.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 10, 2018
My biggest fear is that a movement like this has shifted very quickly from being ‘a campaign against sexual abuse’ to being ‘a campaign about creating ideal male lovers.’
Sreehari, you’ve got to be kidding me! That’s what you got from all the outpouring of trauma this past fortnight? About sexual harassment in the workplace and sexual assault elsewhere? About groping to rape?
LikeLiked by 8 people
Madan
October 10, 2018
This was the very dilemma that came up in the Brett Kavanaugh case. On the one hand, actual evidence to nail the accused may be hard to come by. Nor is mere hearsay enough though. In every case where the ‘network’ has decided to act, as in that of Vikas Bahl, we can only assume they had enough indications as to the person’s behaviour. The only sustainable solution to this is to seriously enforce existing sexual harassment laws in workplaces. Doesn’t happen enough even in corporate, much harder to enforce in the film industry. We need a mutiny of female personnel in the film industry. Now that there are female producers, it can happen. That is the only way the industry will learn a lesson and back off from its eternal obsession with exploiting the women working in the film industry.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Sreehari
October 10, 2018
Anu, that comment takes off from my earlier one. Which means that while I applaud one part of the movement, there’s another part that’s hugely problematic — and that’s because the movement itself is ill-defined.
LikeLike
Vivek narain
October 10, 2018
All i can suggest as an OTT is Honey Traps.
LikeLike
Anon
October 10, 2018
Mani and ARR need to stop working with Vairamuthu. Period.
Wtf was sarattu vandi in kv? As if ppl brought up in Delhi would sing any of that. Vulgar creep.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Sreehari
October 10, 2018
As much as all of this ‘Calling Out’ and ‘Naming and Shaming’ what we need in this country is a healthy discussion about the nature and complexity of Sex.
I think that will help strengthen this movement further.
I don’t know why people are approaching this thing from a distance, and not willing to enter it. Why are they approaching it like a ‘corporation would’ and not approaching it more ‘humanly’ ?
Like for example, the fact is that in a good percentage of consensual lovemaking or sex, one of the two parties gives up its idea of honor, and gives into the act with complete devotion. Now if things don’t work out between this couple, it’s natural, in hindsight, to look at the aforementioned lovemaking as an act of being ‘used’ and ‘abused’ and being ‘dominated.’
Just yesterday, I saw a complaint of this nature, levelled against a writer, being debated very heatedly if it was a case of abuse or not.
Thanks to the core clause of the MeToo movement, this is what it has come to: The ‘Creation of ideal man. That’s just tooooo unworldly.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Prashila
October 10, 2018
Anu, oh PV blinds are worst kind of yellow journalism alright.
In this case, and going by the comments, it points to be her. I am hoping it is not though because it just is so wrong and cringy like all other stories here, the genders being reversed, not the least of points.
Sreehari , are you the rediff Sreehari? A fan there, if you are indeed, but ideal male lover is just not what this is about, whatever else it may be.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
October 10, 2018
Sreehari: I agree with you that cases of pure vendetta are going to slip through in the midst of genuine ones. The Bhatia case could well be vendetta for Wire daring to report on the media (mainstream print media is conspicuously silent about it). I also don’t wholly buy the notion of collective punishment. How is victimising an innocent person in the name of collective punishment any different from believing all Muslims are terrorists except that the latter severely offends liberal sensibilities? The very notion of indiscriminate collective punishment goes against liberal democracy. BUT – and this is the big but – so is appointing Grab My Balls as Prez. Yes US had creepy Bill before but unleashing an openly misogynistic prez made women feel like second class citizens in their own country. MeToo was a reaction to Trump, the moment when women lost patience and became desperate. You cannot analyse MeToo, Brexit or Trump in terms of conventional values. This is history in the making and there’s no because other than that centrists slept on the wheel and ignored problems until they burst with a big bang in 2008.
LikeLiked by 1 person
MANK
October 10, 2018
How is victimising an innocent person in the name of collective punishment any different from believing all Muslims are terrorists except that the latter severely offends liberal sensibilities?
Madan,Agreed.these media trials are always dubious. saying things like women have been suffering for centuries , so let a few innocent men pay the price today is not only disgusting, but an open challenge to rule of law which puts the emphasis on not punishing an innocent person even if a thousand guilty go scott free. On top of it , the media has its own personal agenda in creating , promoting and exaggerating a lot of these stories.
Now I agree with what Anu said before that its impossible to prove in a court of law a lot of the allegations that women are making here. Frankly a lot of the stuff doesn’t come under serious offences even today when a lot of sexual harassment laws are skewed in favor of women .Guess one has to accept the fact that this is a moment of catharsis for women who have been systematically abused and mistreated for a long time
MeToo was a reaction to Trump
Ha , guess you could also say that Trump was a reaction to Obama 🙂 and to the extreme left wing media & politics.Then Look what happened , the biggest causalities of metoo turned out to be shining knights of the left like Weinstein and Co, while Trump and co. continue their reign unabated
LikeLiked by 2 people
Aravind Ramachandran
October 10, 2018
What’s the intent, what’s the motive? Does the accuser have anything to gain or a score to settle? If not, the only motivation they have is to get justice, for the cries that they have been suppressing, to be heard and the perpetrator shamed.
I truly believe Kavannaugh was guilty, so is Vairamuthu definitely, by that measure. Innocent until proven guilty doesn’t apply here.
LikeLiked by 1 person
MANK
October 10, 2018
Regarding keeping artist and person separate, i have felt that as long as artist is in a ‘visible’ position, say an actor, singer of that sort, its difficult to detach . I am not at all comfortable watching a Kevin Spacey or Dileep anymore. But in the case of a director or producer or even a poet , i dont find that a problem.Does it bother me that Byron was a creep who slept with everyone including his sister, A character so depraved that he inspired Dr, Polidori to write the vampyre?. no, not exactly
Roman Polanski may be a born pervert and a fugitive from justice , But Chinatown or Rosemay’s baby still manage to move me as great works of art Harvey weinstein has been exposed as a creep, but he backed a lot of great films like Pulp Fiction which i enjoy a lot, except perhaps watching something like Shakespeare in Love again post the expose, with Gwyneth paltrow who accused him of sexual abuse .at that time it won her the best actress oscar – a wholly undeserved one attained mainly due to harvey’s oscar manipulations of which he was a master and what made him such a powerful figure in Hollywood , but thats par for the course for oscar- and she got up on stage and thanked Harvey for it. One do tend t wonder about the screwed up dynamics of it all.
LikeLike
bala
October 10, 2018
Should an employer be judged for hiring a person with unproved accusations?
If you are knowingly putting other people who work for you in danger, then the employer should be judged. (Say a driver who does rash driving)
If in the process of doing the job that you hired him for, he might continue to do whatever he is accused for, then again yes (say a software consultant who uses illegal versions of software)
If the accusation has nothing to do with the work or work place, then the employer should not be judged (say a engineer who beats up his wife).
After-all, we all make selfish choices which are against the interest of greater common good. Like say, using a car when you could use public transport. Not that I am not interested in containing climate change, I am just not willing to compromise on my quality of life.
Similarly, a film maker may be interested in equality, but he might still need good songs for his film.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Heisenberg
October 10, 2018
The reason why most powerful men tend to get away with what they do is because most often these things are done very discreetly, and no proof remains after that (most of the time). It is still possible for someone to be falsely accused to settle scores or any other reason. But I don’t think it happens in majority of the cases. If multiple women accuse a man for inappropriate behavior, I don’t think we will have to wait for the person to be proven guilty. Even if one woman levels accusation, we should still give credibility to her rather than the powerful man in question. And India is a weird place for metoo movement, as unlike in other parts of the world, here even if you are caught redhanded on camera/tape you could still claim innocence and go on with your life. Let’s not forget our PM was caught snooping a woman and the woman eventually had to thank in Court for snooping as it was done in best interests of her
LikeLiked by 1 person
ramitbajaj01
October 10, 2018
Sreehari: one of the two parties gives up its idea of honor
No. At least, not in lovemaking. If an activity is against the idea of one’s honor, one is not supposed to partake in it. And it’s incumbent upon the other person to respect that choice (even if it’s a tacit one at that). After all, it’s lovemaking. So, non-verbal withdrawal of consent should be easy to read.
And the non-consensual violation of one’s modesty happens not just in power politics. It happens among peers/couples too, all the time. What’s stranger is the fact that most often, both the parties (abuser/vicitm) don’t even realize that something soul-crushing had just happened. And that’s why the MeToo movement is all the more important. To ensure an environment of awareness.
LikeLiked by 7 people
Heisenberg
October 10, 2018
As for filmmakers working with a person who has been accused, I don’t think it’s right they continue their association until the man is proven guilty/innocent. Especially if the accusations are from more than one woman. In this specific case of Vairamuthu, if what Chinmayee says as “the men in industry knew” is true, then I think Mani Ratnam, ARR, Kamal Haasan are all guilty of enabling this predator for very long time.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Srinivas R
October 10, 2018
@Sreehari
“The whole problem with the #Metoo movement is the sacred-ization of women” – I don’t agree. It is about women being bold enough or rather mustering the courage to call out the trauma they have been going through in a patriarchal and male chauvinist set up. I agree for the need for nuance or we will end up putting a lot of innocent people in trouble.
For example, someone called out Chetan Bhagat for harassment, but the incident, trying to woo a woman, was more stupid than creepy. A case of a married man being attracted to some other woman and expressing it flirtatiously. Problematic yes, crime? no IMO. There were no lewd comments, no situation of he having any upper hand. The only person he owes an apology to is his wife. He is also being hauled up the coals for being a harasser.
“Like for example, the fact is that in a good percentage of consensual lovemaking or sex, one of the two parties gives up its idea of honor, and gives into the act with complete devotion” – I don’t know if that is true. The #MeToo movement is not about sex but harassment. The cases that are being outed are where men in power or in a position to impact a women’s career have harassed them for sexual favors. Be it Vikas Bahl, Nana Patekar, Vairamuthu, Alok Nath, Vivek Agnohotri, there is no case of any consensual relationship. They misused their position to pressurize women to consent to favors.
The case you are mentioning where a consensual relationship gone sour becomes a blame game and one of the partners is painted as a criminal hasn’t happened so far with respect to #MeToo in India. May be if we stretch it, you could say Kangana and Hrithik’s case is similar. In that case, the evidence as of now points that Hrithik has shared all devices in his control and Kangana is the one who is dilly dallying and so the sympathies are divided.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
October 10, 2018
MANK: I would say Obama himself got the meltdown vote. And when Obama’s solutions still left huge parts of the US economy in doldrums, Trump got it by repeating the same promises. What’s different is Obama made a strong but measured attack on the establishment while Trump laced his with we-know-what. The bet was that Trump’s style would not be acceptable for enough Americans to vote him to power but it was and with that all bets are off. In the way conservatives express shock over Democrats wanting Kavanaugh ditched without proving him guilty, I see a parallel to liberals expressing shock over Trump’s election. I agree to some extent with the shocked party in both cases. But which means they are talking past each other. Yes, naming and shaming without proof is not acceptable as per conventional norms but so is electing a president who openly attacked women and minorities. Each side is latching onto the grievance that affects them while ignoring that of the other and so this back and forth is going to go on for some more time. Until, as you say, they notice that conservatives are brazening it out and getting shamed no matter the allegations. At that point, perhaps the old doctrine of ignoring whispers about allies will return. Perhaps. I really don’t know. This is an all bets are off zone and predictions are vain and futile.
LikeLike
Madan
October 10, 2018
*not getting shamed
LikeLike
Heisenberg
October 10, 2018
It’s terrifying that after more than 36 hours since these claims surfaced, not a single tamil media has reported. Just imagine 7 time national award winner and a Padma Bhushan has been accused by multiple women and the media doesn’t even report? In contrast the so-called “suchileaks” had coverage that ran for weeks. If the momentum doesn’t continue and the noise dies in few days then we have let down all the women in this country. A movement like this cannot start again for another generation.
LikeLiked by 6 people
Madan
October 10, 2018
@Arvind Ramachandra: Your argument ignores honey traps. The person making the accusation may not directly have an axe to grind with the accused but may be a front for somebody else who would indeed like to see the accused fall. This is not a possibility in all cases but it is still a possibility and has to be eliminated. How to do that? Get feedback from a large sample of the women who have worked /professionally interacted with the accused. If there are multiple allegations, then we may conclude that there is merit to the allegation. But only one woman? Without at least circumstantial evidence to support the accusation? Sorry will have to disagree. If say there is an accusation of attempt to rape, we have to see that the accused has no alibi. If we take Kavanaugh’s case, he had a giant alibi. He claimed he was never at that party and no evidence emerged, at least not that I am aware of, to prove that he was at least at that party. Well, how could anybody prove it when Christine Blasey Ford hadn’t the faintest idea which party it was? Let me ask you something here. If someone banged your car and a co passenger died but neither you nor anybody has the reg number nor can say anything about the car except that it was a fast, big car (well duh!), how much of a case do you think you would have to nab the culprit? Yes, something happened to you, no denying, but some facts are needed to pursue the case in the first place. Ford named Kavanaugh as the culprit with a lot of conviction but was uncertain about most everything else. That was always going to pose a problem in terms of building up a solid case against him. I know it is impossible to prove today that he really did attempt to rape her and I would not apply that impossible standard when it comes to aexual harassment. But I need to know it was at least plausible and for that I need to know he was at the scene of the crime. Rhetoric, however powerful, is no substitute for that.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Arjun
October 10, 2018
@BR: You asked “So if someone makes a film tomorrow and hires Vairamuthu as the lyricist because he hasn’t been PROVEN guilty, would that be grounds to judge the filmmaker?”
I think you answered yourself here.
“In my experience, it’s almost always never a surprise to those in the field.”
It is the sort of doublethink that is ubiquitous. Like in the Brett Cavanaugh case “We believe the woman and stand by her, but since nothing’s proven in a court of law, we stand by the accused also.”
LikeLike
Sreehari
October 10, 2018
//If an activity is against the idea of one’s honor, one is not supposed to partake in it.//
Boss, itna sab sochke nahi hota hai actual life main. And partaking your honour does not necessarily mean subjecting yourself to ‘hot abuse’ — it often means not acting with your logical antenna raised. And in a way, this illogicality is also connected to love.
This is the exact problem I was talking about.
And linking it to the points that Prashila and Madan have raised, I am not pointing this in the direction of ‘vendetta’ or ‘spite’ either. I want to believe that a girl who may act spitefully does so, completely believing that she was ‘abused’ — I want to thus point out to the complexity of the matter at hand.
My only grouse then is that in such a scenario proceeding on the overarching theory of ‘Believe the accuser’ or ‘All women are sacred’ will defeat the purpose of the movement. All it will do is help create a Power Group. And the nature of Power Groups is that it cedes power to the mediocre Center: which is where the most unimaginative people or those with the least original ideas reside. (This is why, despite its good intentions, this is a movement, which if you look carefully, will seem to you to be built on the two dangerous fundamentals of self-righteousness and self-pity).
LikeLike
Arjun
October 10, 2018
I also feel politics and ideology must strictly be kept out of this. If anything predators only use these things as a convenient cover for their actions and don’t believe seriously in any ideology anyway.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Srinivas R
October 10, 2018
“It’s terrifying that after more than 36 hours since these claims surfaced, not a single tamil media has reported” – i don’t follow tamil media much but haven’t the likes of Puthiya Thalaimurai picked it? that’s a bloody shame.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Srinivas R
October 10, 2018
This is a first i guess – http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/24946585/notes-sexual-consent-added-nz-players-handbook
LikeLike
Vivek narain
October 10, 2018
This thread is bound to hit century,with a select few doing the most of commenting. It’s heartening to note that the lovely ladies have abstained so far from commenting. I really dig those dumb,blondes or brunettes. In my variegated education i have learned that it’s always healthy to keep a distance from those smart career woman, the die hard mercenaries. Not that dumb women don’t cost moolah, but these dolls are real fun, never squeak,and still cost a bundle, to the grateful and willing sucker.
LikeLike
Rad Mahalikudi
October 10, 2018
Harassment happens in every industry, movie, media, corporate, and government sectors. While “innocent until proven guilty” applies for these also, what is required is if the perpetrators are in positions of power, then that needs to be taken care till the case gets over. They need to be moved away from positions of power. Vairamuthu may need to be given a holiday till he comes out clean. Similar to Dileep in Malayalam film industry. Why Intel CEO got moved out recently, something to learn from there.
Regarding the query, I wouldn’t come to an conclusion on specific allegation, but being familiar with industry and social prejudices/discriminatory practices, as such it is hard to speak up, so when someone speaks up we need to give it a patient hearing. Agree, when more voices come out spectrum would be confusing, is that just a harmless comment or harassment? Spectrum could be from uncomfortable comment to physical harassment. I consider this as an opportunity to discuss in open and work through rather than saying yours doesn’t count.
One of the guidelines I keep in mind from the corporate world I worked is that “if it it going to embarrass you if it comes as a headline in tomorrow’s news, don’t do it”.
Good to see women from media and movie industry are speaking out. Corporate world has committees and open door policies but don’t think it is uniformly practiced across various sectors. Post Visaka (sp?) law, there is some open talk but IMO it is still limited. Like Anu Warrier pointed out, I am also a pessimist with respect to legal outcomes since these will be hard to prove. That is one of the reason, many don’t speak up. Plus “shaming the victim” one needs to go through.
Till the % of representation goes up in industry (shouldn’t it be 50%) issues will continue. Not just representation, women need to get to decision making positions.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tambi Dude
October 10, 2018
Christine Ford informed Dem Senator Diane Feinstein about BK 60 days before it was made public. Feinstein chose to sit over it until it was politically expedient to go publ
ic and make life miserable for POTUS.
Once BK was confirmed few days ago, CF decided to not press any charges and move on. How convenient. This will definitely improve the credibility of #METOO.
During Obama’s first term, Republicans had only one goal: Obama should be a one term president. Now Democrats have only one goal. Trump must be impeached.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Uncouth Village Youth
October 10, 2018
Innocent until guilty is the gold standard. If murder can wait for proof, everything else can.
My major worry is how to view the art, the accused created, if allegations are proven. I love Vairamuthu and his contribution to Tamil film lyrics. If tomorrow, its proven that VM did indeed harass vulnerable women, I’m conflicted. Complicating things, VM has powerful political enemies, especially after the Andal row.What if it is somebody who is even bigger ,say – Tendulkar or Federer, in whom I have invested a ton emotionally. Will a straight drive by Tendulkar hold the same value ? OTOH, I have no problem appreciating art from across the ideological/political spectrum.IR may have weird views on religion and I as an atheist have no problem enjoying his music.
@Madan: On point regarding Kavanaugh. The blame should be squarely put on the Dem strategists (and not Ms.Ford) who always look for a silver bullet to take down Trump and his allies – oh Stormy Daniels 2020, some lady has a recording of Trump saying the N word, Ford’s testimony will finish off Kav. Sometimes there is no silver bullet. You have to scrap it out there, like a street fighter.That Kavanaugh was unqualified was evident from the dodgy,bumbling answers he gave, BEFORE the Ford saga blew up. If IRC a couple of days before the swearing in, Mazie Hirono(D-Hawaii) delivered a superb speech, on why Kav shouldn’t be confirmed and it included Ford’s allegations as ONE of the many disqualifications. Why was this not done earlier(maybe I missed). Once Ford entered the picture, Dems made it all about Ford Vs Kav – which is a very hard perception battle to win.
We also have to keep in mind that movements like these( which I support with reasonable reservations) give raise to powerful counter forces that future generations may pay for. Breitbart himself has said that, it was the Anita Hill hearings that changed his political views to conservative. Obama’s uber PC era brought us Trump. I don’t know which young man/teenager out there watches MeToo/Kavanaugh trial and goes on to be the next Breitbart/Trump.
LikeLiked by 1 person
shaviswa
October 10, 2018
The biggest loss from all this Metoo happening with Chinmayi is that she may not get enough work going forward. Everyone knows that Kodambakkam is extremely closed and run by cliques. You don’t mess with the powerful there…..in fact there could be more skeletons in the Kodambakkam closet that they will not want to see exposed. They will close ranks with VM and Chinmayi will be the ultimate loser.
She may be bold, she may be the victim but she is definitely the loser in this battle.
LikeLiked by 3 people
brangan
October 10, 2018
Vivek narain:. That comment? On this thread? Really?
So humour me, and explain just what it is that you enjoy about commenting here. Is it the opportunity to troll — like say, prick a needle into the seriousness of the other comments? I mean, what keeps you going?
LikeLiked by 10 people
Tambi Dude
October 10, 2018
@madan: “How is victimising an innocent person in the name of collective punishment any different from believing all Muslims are terrorists except that the latter severely offends liberal sensibilities?”
Liberal sensibilities is completely in bed with islamists and is one of the main reason why it is viewed with contempt by many, self included.
Here is a joke (actually looks better in cartoon)
Young man to young woman: I think that a woman’s place is at home and take care of family and raise children.
YW: How backward and primitive. You must be a republican.
YM: No, I am a muslim and these are my religious feelings.
YW: Oh I am sorry. I apologize. I hope you don’t take me as islamaphobe.
Sums it up. Remember Linda Sarsour. A superstar among liberals, completely ignoring her islamists anti semitic views. Well this happened
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/womens-march-co-founder-linda-sarsour-accused-of-enabling-sexual-assault-threatening-victim
Result: Stunning silence.
BTW there is a book on liberalism:
What a name 🙂
LikeLiked by 4 people
Tambi Dude
October 10, 2018
BR: Please do start a OT topic before 2019 Elections. I am sure it will be fun seeing liberals getting crushed again.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Heisenberg
October 10, 2018
And just as expected, Vairamuthu brushes off the allegations as price for being famous. Despite multiple women coming up and assuming the allegations to be true, this kinda response can happen only in our country. In a career spanning decades, I am sure more women will come forward now. This is a litmus test for the powerful men in Tamil cinema to show they can take a stand in a pressing issue like this, given that many of them are eyeing politics. Anything they do otherwise will confirm that they lack the courage or, even worse they too are probably guilty and are trembling in fear.
LikeLiked by 2 people
ramitbajaj01
October 10, 2018
built on the two dangerous fundamentals of self-righteousness and self-pity
I think the movement is built on the fundamental of respecting one’s space, especially in the case of sexual advances.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Rahini David
October 10, 2018
Young man to young woman: I think that a woman’s place is at home and take care of family and raise children.
YW: How backward and primitive. You must be a republican.
YM: No, I am a Muslim and these are my religious feelings.
YW: Oh I am sorry. I apologize. I hope you don’t take me as islamphobe.
Loved This
LikeLiked by 2 people
Srinivas R
October 10, 2018
“Litmus test for the powerful men in Tamil cinema to show they can take a stand in a pressing issue like this” – so far only 3 people from industry have expressed support to Chinmayee – Samantha, Varalakshmi and Sidarth. I would love if some big shots take a stand that they will not include VM in any of their movies, but that would be a la la land and tamil film industry
LikeLiked by 2 people
Srinivas R
October 10, 2018
Safe to say Anurag Kashyap is not going to be making any movies for next one year at least. He has just resigned from MAMI. Price to pay for being complicit. I love his movies but hate that he ignored the victim for all this while and ultimately acted only when it came to settling personal scores with Vikas Bahl
LikeLiked by 1 person
sanjana
October 10, 2018
http://www.bollywoodhungama.com/news/features/intern-sets-queen-dismisses-kanganas-allegations-vikas-bahl/
Character certificate!
LikeLike
Vivek narain
October 10, 2018
BR: Not trolling, but since the thread is not a signature campaign, just thought to present some wise ideas.
LikeLike
cromagnon
October 10, 2018
@thambidude,yeah it would be fun to watch the liberal political space being crushed! It’s happened previously in our neighborhood, the liberal elite were systematically sidelined, a left leaning prime minister was knocked off by a judicially sanctioned murder and right wing religious zealots were given a free run of the polity. That train wreck is called Pakistan, we seem to be heading the same way. If letting women have their say is going to be disparaged as a ‘liberal’, I’m proud to be called one.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Tambi Dude
October 10, 2018
@cromagnon -> Another virtue signaling illiterate liberal with access to internet.
India will never become Pakistan because:-
Hinduism is not like a totalitarian my way or high way religion which shall not be named. Institutions in India have much better grounding.
Please read books on how Pak came into existence. Whatever is happening in that country is not a surprise given that the basis of forming that country was religion and “muslims and hindus can not coexist peacefully” logic.
“If letting women have their say is going to be disparaged as a ‘liberal’, I’m proud to be called one”
Eh? What has this got to do with what I wrote? Wait. NVM.
LikeLiked by 3 people
MANK
October 10, 2018
This is turning into black comedy, the likes of which even Kashyap’s himself couldn’t have made up😀
https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/bollywood/vikas-bahl-legal-notice-anurag-kashyap-vikramaditya-motwane-5394942/
Regarding Kashyap not making any film for a year or whatever, that was obvious post the manmarzian flopping. His last 5 films or so have been utter flops and ironically the only profitable film from phantom has been Queen
LikeLiked by 5 people
Rocky
October 10, 2018
Nice set of FAQs…
The last time around, however, the debates and conversations mostly happened in Liberal Arts spaces, social media and a section of the mainstream media. In this fresh round of #MeToo, men in stand-up comedy, cinema, politics and journalism have been accused. Their high profiles and presence in the public eye have meant that the questions that were asked in 2017 are being asked again, much more loudly, about the survivors.
Here are some FAQs that we’ve put together to help you understand #MeToo better.
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/why-didn-t-she-speak-then-8-questions-me-too-movement-answered-89742
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 10, 2018
@Tambi Dude – let me present you with some pesky things called ‘facts’. Senator Feinstein ‘sat on’ Dr Ford’s testimony because Dr Ford hadn’t wanted to come forward herself. An anonymous allegation wouldn’t have counted. The minute Dr Ford was willing to come into the spotlight, the allegation was forwarded to the senate committee. And we all saw what happened there during that sham of a hearing.
Two, Dr Ford cannot press criminal charges against Kavanaugh. The statute of limitations explicitly forbids her from so doing. Even during the hearing, she made it celar that she was not seeking to press charges against the man; that she had come forward for the very reason she stated – he was not fit to sit on the Supreme Court. A fact corroborated by many of his classmates at Yale and Yale Law School, some of them, gasp registered Republicans!
Now, Kavanaugh isn’t fit to sit on the bench for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately, none of them matter. Lying is a prerequisite to get a position of power in this administration. So is venal corruption. And finally, lack of qualifications. Kavanaugh’s legal qualifications, of course, were beyond question. But his behaviour – the lying under oath, especially – should have disqualified him right away.
But yes, blame the ‘liberals’.
Re: Linda Sarsour – no, the ‘Left’ hasn’t been silent. But since you post to seriously right-wing news outlets, let me present you with the converse:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/07/07/muslim-activist-linda-sarsours-reference-to-jihad-draws-conservative-wrath/?utm_term=.a8040736b58c
Re: Pakistan, and India not turning into one. You sure about that? From where I stand, I see that same intolerance, that same ideology, albeit in the name of Ram, that i see in our neighbours. The difference being that that state was built in the name of Islam (and yes, I can name that religion), and ours is regressing to a version of our religion that I do not recognise as mine anymore.
I assume you understand Hindi/Urdu? Well, then, here is a Pakistani woman poet (both anathema to you, I know, but bear with me) on how we are beginning to be Hindu Pakistan. Or, in other words, the same.
“Tum bilkul hum jaise nikle
tum bilkul hum jaisey nikley
ab tak kahaN chhupe the bhai
voh moorkhta, voh ghaamarpan
jis mein hum ne sadi ganwai
aakhir pahunchi dwaar tumhaarey
arre badhai bohot badhai
preyt dharam ka naach rahaa hai
qayam Hindu raaj karoge?
saarey ultey kaaj karogay
apna chaman daraaj karogey
tum bhee baithey karogey sochaa
poori hai waisi tayyari
kaun hai Hindu, kaun naheeN hai
tum bhi karogay fatwe jaari
hoga kathin yahaN bhi jeena
raatoN aa jayega paseena
jaisi taisi kata karegi
yahan bhi sabki saans ghutegi
kal dukh se socha karti thi
soch ke bohot hansi aaj aee,
tum bilkul hum jaise nikle
Hum do qaum nahin the bhai!
bhaar mein jaaye shiksha viksha
ab jaahilpan ke gun gaana.
aage gadha hai yeh mat dekho
wapas laao gaya zamana
bhasht karo tum aajayega
ulte paaon chalte jaana
dhyaan na mann mein dooja aaye
bas peeche hi nazar jamana
ek jaap saa kartey jao
vaaram vaar yahi dohrao
kitna veer mahaan tha Bharat
kaisa alishaan tha bharat
phir tum log pohonch jaogay
bas parlok pohonch jaaogay
hum toh hain pehle se wahan par
tum bhi samay nikalte rehna
ab jis nark mein jaao wahan se
chitthi vitthi daalte rehna
LikeLiked by 5 people
Anu Warrier
October 10, 2018
Madan, re: Kavanaugh – no evidence emerged that he was at the party because none of those who could have corroborated Dr Ford’s testimony were interviewed. Mark Judge made a statement through his lawyer (so that ‘under penalty of perjury’ would not have applied in his case) but went into hiding. The FBI did not interview him; did not interview Dr Ford. Did not question Judge Kavanaugh. Especially him because while he may have got away with lying under oath during the Senate hearings given that the Senate is ruled by the Republicans, lying to the FBI is a felony that will nail him.
None of the witnesses – over 40 of them – who came forward with evidence were questioned. So what exactly did the FBI do?
As someone pointed out – a registered Republican friend, in case Tambi Dude thinks this is also a liberal ploy – he was investigated more thoroughly when he applied for a job at Barnes & Noble.
This was a sham hearing, a sham investigation intended to whitewash Kavanaugh and paint Dr Ford as a feminist liberal democrat (all pejoratives today).
But hey, no evidence. Let’s move on.
In coming forward, all that happened was that Dr Ford risked her entire life and career and safety while the President of the country mocked her, her countrymen made threats to her life and that of her family’s, and Kavanaugh, the man who assaulted her, sits on the highest seat of justice.
This is why women don’t come forward.
LikeLiked by 6 people
Kay
October 10, 2018
Vivek – I don’t see an iota of wisdom in your statement. This is exactly the kind of dilemma that women face. Do we just ignore your comment and move on or call you out for it, knowing that it is going to be pointless discussion? That comment was totally unnecessary, especially considering the topic being discussed here.
LikeLiked by 6 people
Anu Warrier
October 10, 2018
@Vivek, you have made some horrible misogynistic remarks before, hiding behind the pen of Chase and Charteris. But this comment today took the cake, the icing and the bakery in its sheer tone-deafness.
LikeLiked by 5 people
Madan
October 10, 2018
@Tambidude: Whoa, hold on. Mike Savage is far out stuff. If he sounds smart the one time (the way a broken clock can be right twice a day) while mocking autism and PTSD, I am going to give more weightage to the latter to tell me all I need to know about him.
I call out both sides when they are being hypocritical. Don’t assume I am coming over to ‘your’ side. I am not interested in picking a side. I will look at each event separately and form conclusions accordingly.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
October 10, 2018
Anu Warrier: But if he lied under oath, why didn’t the Democrats just focus on that as a line of attack? Watching from the outside, it felt more like they were latching onto any possible talking point they could get to discredit Kavanaugh. I believe they also declared at the outset that they would do everything to stop him from being nominated (well before the Ford revelation). Never a good thing to do. It reduces the whole thing to political theater which is how it came across to me. I was thankful that our own Supreme Court have stoutly resisted all attempts by the govt to control appointments (including Modi’s own attempt with the NJAC). As much as the inherent lack of accountability in judges appointing judges doesn’t sound right to me, I would much rather than politicians doing so.
Now as for Christine Ford, I am not aware what the 40 witnesses had to say and whether any of them could zero in on a time and place (seems implausible that the media wouldn’t have run with it if somebody had). Yes, no doubt the investigation was compromised and incomplete. However I am not willing to let go of Ford’s inability to get down the time and place to some reasonably narrow zone. I am willing to believe it happened and willing to also believe she is not being deliberately forgetful but her lack of memory about it seriously hurts any credible effort to investigate it. It’s possible, yes, that a very thorough investigation could have turned up something (and I will refuse to presume it would have returned a verdict of guilty for Kavanaugh without knowing what the investigation would have come up with). But could have it been completed in a week? Probably no. Is it fair to hold up his appointment indefinitely? No, not with what testimony she was able to provide. Had she been more specific then yes by all means. Witnesses are meant to corroborate what the complaint has said. It’s not their job to fill up huge gaps of information in the complaint itself, though a good witness may also serve that purpose.
LikeLike
Madan
October 10, 2018
I might have believed India will never become Pakistan had a bunch of right wing nutties (including one who has been reinducted recently into the BJP) not demanded SLB’s head and Deepika’s nose for ‘insulting Hindu culture’. That event left no doubt in at least my mind that it already HAS become Pakistan but y’all keep saying it will never happen if it makes you feel better about your choices.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Tambi Dude
October 10, 2018
@anu: Feinstein did not bring that issue even in private meeting with BK during his confirmation, nor at close door discussion between the committee and BK. The cynic in me does not want to believe that this is all due to Ford’s refusal to be identified.
“Two, Dr Ford cannot press criminal charges against Kavanaugh. The statute of limitations explicitly forbids her from so doing.”
You might want to read this which clearly states that she can pursue charges.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/amid-the-ford-kavanaugh-exchanges-have-the-local-police-been-asked-to-investigate/2018/09/27/7787d8c0-c297-11e8-a1f0-a4051b6ad114_story.html?utm_term=.783bd38a94f2
Ask yourself, why Bill Cosby got punished recently for crimes decades ago.
Since you are in a massive virtue signaling mode, let me join your party un-invited.
I do believe Ford’s allegation against BK. I just can’t stand D party because of their holier than thou attitude.
“Re: Pakistan, and India not turning into one. You sure about that? From where I stand, I see that same intolerance, that same ideology, albeit in the name of Ram, that i see in our neighbours. ”
It might help if you actually do some reading about Pakistan. Here are few samples of the depth of their society:
as early as 1954 riots happened in pakistan to declare ahmediyas as non muslims and debar them from being posted in offices (high offices). The recent drama against Atif Mian had its genesis right in 1954.
In 1974 Bhutto declared them as non muslims. A section was introduced in their passport application form heaping abuses on them. Do look it up and see what every pakistani has to do to get a passport.
A muslim woman is legally debarred from marrying a non muslim.
There is not a single case of a muslim pakistani converting to other religion. Death is guaranteed if the news breaks out.
It never ceases to amaze me how Indian liberals go to the extent of declaring India as Hindu Pakistan work in progress, without knowing how worse it has to become to match Pakistan. As of now, no comparison.
Re: Linda let me answer that later. GTG.
LikeLike
Rahini David
October 10, 2018
Hey there are more roundabout clever, subtle ways to tell “You disgust me”. But why bother? no?
Vivek Narain, You disgust me.
LikeLiked by 1 person
MANK
October 10, 2018
RGV on Nana and the controversy. he sounds genuine
LikeLiked by 1 person
Vivek narain
October 10, 2018
But the literature, of Chase and his ilk, does exist in public, and still hugely followed. Maybe the allegation is i am making unfair use of them, but what i know is that i am simply uncovering the can whether it contains worms or gems or both is a moot question. What makes me tick is the liberal moderation of BR, as long as it does.
LikeLike
brangan
October 10, 2018
Vivek narain: What makes me tick is the liberal moderation of BR, as long as it does.
No longer, my friend. What I do… isn’t even moderation. Unless there’s name-calling or personal attacks I let comments pass with the idea that some kind of moderation will occur in the thread itself, with someone else hauling you up (as it has happened here).
But if the only reason you are commenting is because I allow you, then it’s time we call it a day. Goodbye. All best wishes.
LikeLiked by 12 people
Madan
October 10, 2018
@Tambi Dude: Speaking for myself, I know that objectively India isn’t Pakistan just yet. I have spoken to Pakistanis on social media (our common interest is cricket, of course) and even ‘reasonable’ Pakistanis are pretty hardline about Islam.
Why do I still assert that India has become Pakistan? Because “India is nothing like Pakistan” has become the justification for drawing the baseline ever lower and perpetrating increasing intolerance, including the companion statement “If you don’t like it here, go to Pakistan”.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Anu Warrier
October 10, 2018
Madan, a Supreme Court seat is not his by right. Damn sure, they could have held his nomination off if they wanted. (Imagine if he had been a liberal judge? His nomination would have been toast even before they went into the hearing.)
Two, he was picked from a list of 25 conservative judges – they could have picked anyone. Certainly one person who did not have multiple sexual allegations against him. Do remember that Neil Gorsuch, another conservative, was confirmed almost unanimously.
At any other time, even the Republicans would have dropped Kavanaugh. He was just too costly for them. Today, the only reason they were so charged about getting him confirmed is because of his stated reasoning that a sitting president cannot be indicted; that he cannot even be questioned.
I have no doubt in my mind that the country has been sold down the drain with this man’s confirmation.
Re: the lying under oath – Sen. Cory Booker asked him about it. Repeatedly. He was shouted at by Kavanaugh, and admonished by Grassley.
Again, not saying the Democrats couldn’t have handled it better. But let’s face it – the cards were stacked against them in a majority Republican senate. And Senator Joe Manchin is a worm.
I am generally centre, and sometimes left of centre. But not so extreme I can’t see the faults clearly. As they are now, I’ll have nought to do with the Republican Party. Individual Republicans – the moderate ones – I can still agree with, or agree to disagree with and still move on.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Anu Warrier
October 10, 2018
TambiDude,
The ‘whataboutism’ is something I have come to expect from the patriarchal angry white male here (and their supportive ecosystem). It’s the same in Inda. ‘We are becoming as intolerant as Pakistan,’ I say. ‘Do you knowabout Pakistan?’ is your response. As if the fact that we aren’t ‘as bad’ is something to be proud of. No, we’re plenty bad by ourselves.
Pointing out the worst excesses of Pakistan doesn’t make us any better. The bar is set very low to be Pakistan. But are well on our way to getting there. I don’t have to be ‘liberal’ to see the intolerance growing, the patriarchy growling, and women and minorities bearing the brunt of state policy, both explicit and complicit.
In the case of the MeToo movement: ‘Oh, you were sexually assaulted? What about the men who are falsely accused?’ It’s as if one statement has to falsify the other, that both cannot co-exist. And let me point out here – in general – that false allegations form a very small percentage of all sexual assault/harassment claims that are reported.
Similarly, ‘Pakistan is so much worse’ and ‘India is getting to be like Pakistan’ are both truthful statements. One doesn’t preclude the other.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Vishakha
October 10, 2018
I suppose the “innocent until proven guilty” maxim applies only as far as law and punishment is concerned. Doesn’t work in reality much I think.
Would I hire a maid accused (but not yet proven guilty) of stealing ? Would I hire a guy accused (but not proven guilty) of sexual misconduct in my team? Not sure I would…
Ideally of course , this shouldn’t be the case..but then, we don’t live in an ideal world.
LikeLiked by 6 people
Madan
October 10, 2018
@Anu Warrier: Why Trump wanted Kavanaugh so bad is a different argument and one in which I mostly agree with your views. I did not like his no holds barred attack on the Democrats, not becoming of a judge at all. I am debating here the principle though that would have been established by believing him guilty of attempted rape with whatever information was brought on to the table. Because the same reasoning could be used tomorrow against a liberal candidate nominated by the Democrats. That is the reason why I think it is a good thing he wasn’t denied the appointment for THAT reason. On the grounds that he was partisan and unreliable, yes, he should have been and could have been though the Republican party would have never not confirmed him on those grounds anyway.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 10, 2018
@madan: Fair enuf. If someone says that India has changed a lot since 2014, I am fine with it. But if someone says India is on the way to become Pakistan (if not already) than to me that person is an illiterate idiot who does not know Pakistan.
I have read about 10-12 books on Pakistan, written by stalwarts like Husain Haqqani, to americans like Bruce Ridel, Christine Fair and indians like Tilak Devasher. My conclusion: That country is beyond redemption and main reason
is their religion.
I am a big supporter of BJP and I know many who are. But I also know that many of BJP supporters are not comfortable with declaring India as a Hindu nation. Needless to say, if India introduces insulting clauses in our constitution or legal document, then BJP will lose supporters like me quickly.
This is taken from Pakistan PP app form:
DECLARATION IN CASE OF MUSLIMS
I ………………………… S/O………………………… Aged…………….. .Years, adult Muslim, Resident of…………………………………………………………… hereby solemnly declare that :-
(i) I am Muslim and believe in the absolute and unqualified finality of the prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) the last of the prophets.
(ii) I do not recognise any person who claims to be a prophet in any sense of the word or of any description whatsoever after Muhammad (peace be upon him) or recognise such a claimant as prophet or a religious reformer as a Muslim.
(iii) I consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Quadiani to be an imposter nabi and also consider his followers whether belonging to the Lahori or Qadiani group to be Non-Muslim.
Now imagine this in Hindu rashtra:
DECLARATION IN CASE OF HINDUS
I ………………………… S/O………………………… Aged…………….. .Years, adult Hindus, Resident of…………………………………………………………… hereby solemnly declare that :-
(i) I am Hindu and believe in the absolute and unqualified finality of the one god Vishnu.
(ii) I do not recognise any person who claims to be a prophet in any sense of the word or of any description whatsoever or recognise Islam as a religion of peace.
(iii) I consider Mohd to be an imposter nabi and a child molester also consider his followers to be non-indians.
==
Reading the above makes me laugh at its stupidity.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tambi Dude
October 10, 2018
As a resident of USA, I am bit concerned about growing intolerance of the left. Does anyone remember how rioters set Berkley on fire just because they did not want Milos to talk.
Or the case of google engineer who was fired from his job for writing in his blog on why he thinks women are under represented in the IT field. That engineer now has virtually no chance of being employed in any big company. FOE !!!!
I don’t even think there is any classic fault line definition of Liberals and Conservatives. Most of us take from both.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 10, 2018
@Madan – I agree totally.
LikeLike
Rocky
October 10, 2018
Bharat has become like Pakistan is the new mantra by the tukdey tukdey gang.
Lagey raho….Bharat akhand rahega !!
LikeLike
Srinivas R
October 10, 2018
@TambiDude – While we are glad that India hasn’t descended to depths of insanity like Pakistan, I think the warning signs are already there. Lynching some one because they eat beef and on top of that a minister garlanding the accused? That should alarm anyone. Appointing a guy with a history of violence and a record of hate speeches ( some nauseatingly so) as the CM of the most politically sensitive state? I am not able to justify that. At least one instance of a terror organization in the name of Hinduism being caught red handed with plans for a terror attack? Afghan students being attacked in Sharda University because they are muslims?
The idea is to stop the descent to hell while we can and not wait till we reach the nadir.
LikeLiked by 4 people
brangan
October 10, 2018
Er… Are we still talking about #MeToo?
LikeLiked by 10 people
Rocky
October 10, 2018
Yeh kya ho raha hai !!!
https://www.opindia.com/2018/10/metoo-comic-aditi-mittal-accused-by-another-female-comic-of-forcefully-kissing-her/
Surka narrates an incident from two years back at a comedy show she was hosting in Andheri Base in presence of audience of 100 and many other comedians where Aditi Mittal walked up on stage and allegedly forcefully kissed her on the mouth. She says she even put her tongue in her mouth without her consent. She says she later confronted her a year ago on the incident and while Mittal apologised at first, she soon turned hostile towards her, leaving Surka confused and hurt.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 10, 2018
@anu: “Similarly, ‘Pakistan is so much worse’ and ‘India is getting to be like Pakistan’ are both truthful statements. One doesn’t preclude the other.”
OK noted.
What you are missing is a sense of proportion. Just because few things happened in India post May 26 2014 which you don’t like, it does not mean India has changed irrevocably. Look at the trend. Has India legally or constitutionally changed for the worse since BJP took over. My answer is a laughable NO.
I don’t care much for some nut wanting to see Deepika’s nose in his hand. They are news of the day, just like some muslim cattle traders breaking law get beaten by cow vigilantes.
I want to see what BJP does on the legal framework to disenfranchise minorities or officially make them second class.
Aha BTW BJP also fixed some old issues regarding Gays (377) , Adultry (497) which our liberal ram rajya govt never though of doing it. Any credit to BJP ?
LikeLiked by 2 people
Madan
October 10, 2018
@Tambi Dude: We already have this thing called alternative science being offered now for students at, I think diploma/college level. Where well accepted Western discoveries and incentions will be labelled myths and a claim of it being invented in ancient India will be touted as fact with no supporting evidence of course. To me, such things make the long term trend very clear. It is to crush what little remains of scientific temper and compel coming generations to embrace Hinduism as their only source of identity. At which point, dangerous things will happen. I don’t care what label you want to attach to me for saying so, go right ahead.
And while you will be uncomfortable with India being labelled a Hindu nation, many are increasingly comfortable with the idea and have been for a long time. It is a latent constituency that has now been awakened. I have found that often the main reason for Tamilians drifting to BJP is their dislike of caste politics in the state. Up North, there are pockets of genuine religious polarisation. Even in Mumbai people don’t mince words behind closed doors and with no Muslims in earshot. I don’t mind being a little paranoid about it if that is what it takes to remain alert about this trend which I feel will only be exacerbated in the years to come barring a drastic course correction.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 10, 2018
@srinivas: “The idea is to stop the descent to hell while we can and not wait till we reach the nadir.”
I think USA also has started descending to hell.
a Muslims from 7 countries barred from entering USA
b Firebombs and Pipe Bombs sent to moques
c John Bolton Trump Steve Banon explicitly issuing anti muslim remark.
You agree !!!!
Could it be that folks like you are actually disappointed that in the BJP led govt, riots are not happening every day as they predicted before 2014 election.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Tambi Dude
October 10, 2018
@madan: For every idiotic claim of Arjun sent an ICBM now touted by some nut, we had in the past touted Aurangzeb as a pious muslim who made and sold caps. Why is that left does not have problem with the whitewashing of history , decided by the likes of Irfan Habib Romilla Thapar.
I cringe when I read about claims of plastic surgery done in ancient India. I cringe even more when attempts are made to portray Islamic rule of India as benign. Do you too? You may call it whataboutery. I call it selective outrage / virtue signaling.
LikeLiked by 1 person
therag
October 10, 2018
I knew this thread would blow up but….
Anyway, for the record, I thought Brett Kavanaugh was guilty too. BK dilemma is just the name the internet has given to cases like this.
I also figure it is extremely unlikely for harassers to just start harassing without establishing that kind of behavior before.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rocky
October 10, 2018
Re.-They are news of the day, just like some muslim cattle traders breaking law get beaten by cow vigilantes.
Tambi, also don’t forget that in a lot of cases the cattle smugglers were beaten up by the owners of the cattle which these smugglers were trying to steal. But the Naxal media clubs everything under beef lynching .
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 10, 2018
Corroborating evidence against Alok Nath and MJ Akbar.
Shocking. I especially respected Akbar. For journalists like me, he was one of the best. His erudite writing, his reasoned arguments (whether we agreed on the opinion or not), his use of language. But ‘Akbar’s harem’? Ugh!
LikeLiked by 2 people
Tambi Dude
October 10, 2018
BR: Start a new OT thread: SULABH SHAUCHALYA where anyone can dump any topic.
LikeLike
Rahini David
October 10, 2018
Isn’t anyone going to celebrate VN being deported? 🤔🙄
Thank you, BR. Thank you very much indeed. 👌
LikeLiked by 7 people
Krishikari
October 10, 2018
@Mank “RGV on Nana and the controversy. he sounds genuine”
Sure he knows how Nana Patekar behaved with him and charitably assumes that despite his rudeness, his intentions are good. To me he sounds not genuine but quite delusional as he goes on and on ascribing good intentions to an arrogant man. NP as it is sounds like a bully, but behaving lewdly with women is something that the saintliest of men are capable of and we are hearing more and more such stories.
He has no clue how Nana Patekar or anyone would behave with another category of person. No man ever seems to witness sexual harrasment happening!
I actually think that even if it happens in front of your eyes, you would “unsee” it if you already have the idea that this is a good guy. We are trained like this since childhood actually in India. To “unsee” bad behaviour, I cannot think of another term for it. Have you seen your parents speak rudely to a labourer or some other person without status? Do we question them for it or unthinkingly get used to it as normal behaviour? An actress who is employed to do an item number and the disrespectful treatment she gets also becomes invisible to others in the same way I think.
As for the question of whether to employ someone who has been accused, you have to go with a combination of gut feeling and what is good for the whole team. Even creative geniuses have to behave themseves. You can’t let one guy create a bad atmosphere however talented he is. Or you can isolate him and make sure he is never alone with anyone else. How is that going to play?
LikeLiked by 4 people
KV
October 10, 2018
It’s about time that India (and specifically Kollywood from the point of view of this post to which this reply is pertaining to) has an open conversation about harrasement in the work place.
For too long, the “powers that be” have managed to hide their creepiness/perverseness under a cloak of superiority and power in said industry with no questions being asked as to their propriety.
While I don’t know if what Chinmayi/ Varalaxmi etc have as hard proof against Vairamuthu – what I wish to not happen is for this to die down because there is no traction from the public (in terms of sentiment) against the named and shamed individual.
My hope is that ARR /Mani / others see the light and disassociate from Vairamuthu until this is sorted out though I guess that the incestuous nature of the Tamil film industry wouldn’t let it happen.
Shame on Vairamuthu and all his enablers for this behaviour.
And lastly F**K Vivek Narain.
Can we ban his trolling ass please ?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tambi Dude
October 10, 2018
@rocky: I think we should stop calling everyone as urban naxal the moment we disagree 🙂 In fact Vivek Agnihotri who coined the term Urban Naxals mentioned it in the New Jersey book launch which I attended few months ago.
Talking about Vivek, I loved when he provoked desi Social Justice Warrier Swara Bhaskar asking her to use hastag #meetooprostitutenun when she twetted about Nun scandal in Kerala. She went ape shit liberal shouting hai hai and got twitter to force VA to delete.
Is there a bigger idiot than Swara ? Pity, she is a fine actress. Now I will never see her movie.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Madan
October 10, 2018
“we had in the past touted Aurangzeb as a pious muslim who made and sold caps.” – I don’t remember this at all from my syllabus; it portrayed him as a despot and a tyrant. The only emperor who was mentioned in a somewhat benign light was Akbar. I would really like to hear from anybody here on this thread who actually read favourable stuff about Aurangzeb in their syllabus. Don’t give me news articles from postcard news. I studied in Maharashtra State Board from 91-00 and the syllabus clearly depicted both the Sultanate and Mughals as invaders, to say nothing of the British. Though it is also a fact that the British built better infrastructure for Mumbai than any of the myriad civic corporations and state govts that have controlled it since independence, who are mostly only good at renaming roads and railway stations.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
October 10, 2018
Anu Warrier: Ugh, never liked Akbar’s writing much. Good, I don’t have to care now that he has also been outed as a predator. But oh dear, some of the stories were horrifying to read, very Matt Lauer-esque.
https://thewire.in/media/mj-akbar-sexual-harassment
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 10, 2018
Well said, Krishikari, KV.
Re: employing someone whose behaviour doesn’t affect their work. The example given was of a talented engineer beating his wife. Heck, no. Where do we stop, then? Is it okay if he beats up someone else, but it doesn’t affect his work? Sorry, but no. Just, No. A man who has sexual allegations against him is someone who can make the workspace scary for a lot of other women. It may not affect his work itself, but it will definitely affect the work of his colleagues. Am I saying that every man accused of sexual harassment is guilty? No. However, unless the charge can be investigated and cleared, it is potentially a problem for other employees.
Why did Intel’s CEO resign? By all accounts, the relationship when it happened was consensual. The woman – whom he did not name, and still remains anonymous – is still working at Intel. There was no complaint against him of sexual harassment or of utilising the power imbalance in his favour. There was only this one relationship that has long ended. The woman didn’t gain any position because of sexual favours granted to him.
But what prompted him to resign was the perception of power imbalance and the impropriety of starting an affair, however consensual with a person who was directly reporting to him. I’m sorry he had to go. Because, by all accounts, he was a good boss. And a great CEO.
However, it is also true that he knew company policy. So if he wanted to pursue that relationship, either he or she had to have left the company beforehand. It is a case where a company acted swiftly to conduct an internal investigation, and justice was served – whether we like the outcome or not. Whether that outcome was warranted or not. Because the perception of fairness and justice is as important as fairness and justice itself.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Tambi Dude
October 10, 2018
@madan: ” I don’t remember this at all from my syllabus; it portrayed him as a despot and a tyrant. ”
Try Central School (Kendriya Vidayala) and NCERT text books used until 70s. Yes I am that old. I wrote essays about Aurangzeb being a pious muslim who was so dedicated to islam that he made caps.
As for Akbar I wrote in exam that he married Rajput women to show his secular credentials and not to build his harem.
There was not a single word about Jaziya in history books, except that Akbar stopped it. So while we learned AKbar stopped it, we did not learn what the heck is that in the first place. Indian education system designed by Irfan and Romilla.
Go figure.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 10, 2018
@Madan, thank you for calling out that silly garbage about Aurangazeb. In fact, while we were growing up, ‘Aurangazeb’ was used as an adjective for an intolerant, rigid man. (I still call my brother ‘Aurangazeb’ when he issues diktats about his sisters or his daughter or women in general.)
The Muslim invaders were referred to as invaders. No one claimed they were the greatest things that happened to India. In fact, we read both what they did for the good of the people and the bad. We had a broader perspective on History then.
But you know what we didn’t read? While we focussed on Rajput kings like Prithviraj Chauhan and Rana Pratap, etc., no textbook mentioned, except in passing, that many of the Muslim invaders were actually invited to – and helped – by Hindu kings who wanted power. That many of the Muslim kings had Hindu generals who fought against their own people.
It’s compelling to rewrite history as ‘Hindus good, Muslims bad’ (or insert traditionally enemy groups of your choice here) but fact remains that we invited our own invaders and then were shocked! Shocked, I tell you! that they invaded our territories as well. We also helped the British enslave our own countrymen. And then learnt that their rapaciousness didn’t stop with our enemies.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Tambi Dude
October 10, 2018
I recently read https://www.amazon.com/History-Jihad-Muhammad-ISIS/dp/1682616592 and there are chapters on the barbarity of the Islamic rule in India. Suffice to say, it is completely whitewashed in our history text books, except may be Rajasthan.
Anyhow Madan are you claiming that there is no whitewashing of Islamic conquest in our history books ?
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 10, 2018
@Tambi – I don’t know where you studied, but I studied in KV, and I knew what Jaziya was. I knew Akbar abolished it and how he faced opposition from his own generals. I learnt about the internecine warfare between Shahjehan’s sons, and I learnt about how Jaichand betrayed Prithviraj.
So, yes, I also learnt that Aurangazeb was a pious Muslim; that he was a vegetarian. But I also learnt how cruel he was.
Selective memory, perhaps?
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 10, 2018
Clarification: To be fair, I went to school in the 80s, so I cannot say that the History books of the decade before were not written as Tambi Dude claims. We certainly didn’t read the history he says he did.
LikeLike
Madan
October 10, 2018
” are you claiming that there is no whitewashing of Islamic conquest in our history books ?” – No is too strong a word; it may be that some incidents were left out for no reason other than that high school students cannot be taught everything in detail. I did not study very much about the Cholans either growing up in Maharashtra; I don’t think that was anti-Cholan/Tamil discrimination. BUT the overall picture was that they had indeed been cruel and barbaric. BUT, as Anu Warrier said, not ONLY that. The good things about them were also mentioned. In stark contradistinction, almost nothing bad about Shivaji Maharaj was mentioned at all and my entire 4th standard history textbook was about nothing but Shivaji. This is a point that perhaps you and others who are similarly wont to believe our textbooks have an anti-Hindu bias ignore. The history of our homegrown rulers is usually very favourably written, even though few if any of them were truly flawless. The only one who received some criticism from what I remember was Peshwa Nanasaheb and also his brother Raghunath Rao. Which was quite justified because their greed and arrogance brought down the Peshwa reign and paved the way for British rule in India.
“So, yes, I also learnt that Aurangazeb was a pious Muslim; that he was a vegetarian. But I also learnt how cruel he was.” – Exactly what I wanted to say. There’s some intentional or unintentional obfuscation going on here. I too learnt that he was a staunch practicing Muslim. And also that he was terribly cruel, starting with imprisoning his own father and executing his brothers just to usurp the throne. And from talking to people from different states over the years, I have no reason to believe that the version taught elsewhere is radically different from what I learnt.
LikeLike
Madan
October 10, 2018
About Me Too, now Sandhya Mridul has also brought to light a frightening story about Alok Nath. Babuji is running out of tentacles to wrap himself with at this rate.
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/me-too-now-actor-sandhya-mridul-accuses-alok-nath-sexual-harassment-89740
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tambi Dude
October 10, 2018
@anu Then you must also be remembering the page number of Somnath temple massacre, Chittorgarh massacre and the burning of Nalanda library.
I don’t think u will have inclination to read the above, but try it. In fact there was a TV debate between Arun Shourie, Romila Thapar etc somewhere around 1999. While AS quoted the barbarity of islamic rule, all RT could say “dubious sources”, while forgetting that AS was using the same source from where RT supposedly wrote those chapters of our text books. That is, Muslim court historians.
I wish that debate is uploaded to YT.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 10, 2018
However to be fair, Romilla and Irfan did not decide on their own to have their version of history. Our chachaji decided to have that version populated. The same chachaji who is now considered epitome of liberalism and FOE. Never mind that the list of people he got jailed or censored is huge.
watch this:
Fab job by Anand Ranganathan.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Rocky
October 10, 2018
Tambi – I get your point about Urban Naxal , I am also aware that most of the people in the Media are from art schools or art subjects , jissko kaheen aur admission nahee milta who arts leta hai.
Then as soon as they are in the Media , they all of a sudden become experts in each subjects depending on the topic of the day, like the “Duggal Sahab”
Totally agree on Swara Bhaskar – she is the queen of selectivity .
LikeLiked by 1 person
Honest Raj
October 10, 2018
Tambidude: Aha BTW BJP also fixed some old issues regarding Gays (377) , Adultry (497) which our liberal ram rajya govt never though of doing it. Any credit to BJP ?
Lol. Are you serious?
LikeLiked by 3 people
Maru
October 10, 2018
Innocent until proven guilty, sure but what is the proof that is sought? Where they do exist, women have provided screen shots of digital conversations. Audio or video recordings of these encounters don’t exist, so then what? When it’s more than one woman’s word against a man’s, does that provide corroboration? In the case of Bill Cosby and Larry Nassar a multitude of complainants coming forward moved the needle for the court. Doesn’t it do the same for Vairamuthu, MJ Akbar and co when they are judged outside of it?
In the corporate arena as with any workplace in the arts, job hiring doesn’t call for the same burden of proof as in a court of law. Judge Kavanaugh was up for a job interview – there was plenty of evidence as Anu Warrier has pointed out to disqualify him based on his performance before the senate judiciary committee. When people get hired especially in leadership positions the evaluation is as much about the sort of work culture they create, the opportunity and excellence they foster as their hard skills at delivering bottom line results. It isn’t hard for organizations whether corporate or a professional association (such as an cinema artists association to investigate and verify if the accusations have merit). When multiple individuals provide information about the circumstances and what they each saw or heard the fragments can be pieced together to know with reasonable certainty whether the allegations stick.
As for whether an individual director hires Vairamuthu and his ilk given the allegations against him, there are multiple accounts of accusations not just in the last few days but in the whispers around the industry. The question is whether the director chooses to ignore that or not. Of course he/she will be judged for the decision made, it points what the director stands for. I disagree with you on this Brangan – it isn’t merely gut feeling or personal conviction when it’s more than one person’s word against another. There’s also the matter of motive – a Blasey Ford or a Chinmayi have everything to lose in coming forward and it’s nothing but rectitude and courage that are the drivers in their speaking up. While by itself that isn’t proof, this is a jigsaw puzzle. There are enough pieces on the table to know if there’s a pattern here. It does begin with the individual, it’s how we reach a tipping point in movements such as these.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Tambi Dude
October 10, 2018
@honestraj: It happened under the watch of BJP, right? Also recollect what SC said when they decriminalized 377. To quote them “yes in the past it was under consideration, but every-time SC wanted to do something about it, Govt requested a postponement”. (not a verbatim quote, so don’t go pedantic on me later on).
Do you know which Govt are they talking about. Congress knew that decriming it will infuriate their vote bank of muslims.
@rocky “jissko kaheen aur admission nahee milta who arts leta hai.”
eh? Are you one of those who think arts folks are basically people of lesser intelligence. Sorry to disappoint you I am not one of them. In fact I think India’s obsession with STEM is unhealthy.
BTW check the credentials of Husain Haqqani. He is a political science graduate, even though he claims he could have easily got into med school or eng school back in Pak. IIRC Arun Shourie, Vivek Agnihotri are also “art” students.
I think liberal arts teaches lot of good skills, specially communication.
@madan: Education is a state subject in India for state board schools. So History taught in every state differs. I hardly read about Cholas in history.
“it may be that some incidents were left out for no reason other than that high school students cannot be taught everything in detail.”
No. Chachaji passed a clear instruction to his two peons, Irfan H and Romilla T “the period of Hindu Muslim clashes and antagonism should be understated or ignored”.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Honest Raj
October 10, 2018
My hope is that ARR /Mani / others see the light and disassociate from Vairamuthu until this is sorted out though I guess that the incestuous nature of the Tamil film industry wouldn’t let it happen.
Mani and ARR need to stop working with Vairamuthu. Period.
I’m not taking sides here but when Chinmayee herself went on to sing a few songs penned by Vairamuthu (Vaagai Sooda Vaa, Kochadaiyaan, Anegan, et al) – if I’m not wrong the incident took place around 2005-06 – I don’t see a reason why others should disassociate themselves from VM. It’s business after all.
LikeLike
Amit Joki
October 10, 2018
I think Twitter has to be appreciated as a platform. Don’t know about the justice, but the alleged accusers are certainly shamed and the common youth are becoming more and more aware to listen to a survivor and are less inclined to protect their gender.
It’s all good but it gets a bit weaker when #MeToo is appropriated for something that happens for everyone gender not being the prerogative, case in point being, Jwala Dutta using the term “mental harassment” and #MeToo for not selecting her. It is happening to Karun Nair as well.
Other than that, it is heartening to see so many women and men opening up. The predators will sure have been alarmed. No longer can they do those grotesque things and leave away unharmed. Now there will be consequences and hopefully sooner.
In America, big weights like Weinstein, Spacey fell badly and deservedly. Will have to see if the same happens here too.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rocky
October 10, 2018
@ Tambi- Are you one of those who think arts folks are basically people of lesser intelligence.
Absolutely NOT. Did not have time to elaborate, usually in an arts school the atmosphere is more leftist , and since the media people are mostly from arts , most of them tend to be leftist .
Has go nothing to do with intelligence . My mom is way more intelligent than me , she is high school pass.
The problem arises when these guys pretend to be experts on everything under the Sun.
Will like to expand on this but abhee time nahee hai..
LikeLiked by 1 person
Siva
October 10, 2018
BR, Kay, Anu, Rahini, KV: I recently came across a random comment on a Twitter thread that has made my life a bit easier when it comes to handling unruly online behavior. Someone was incessantly abusing a celebrity under the reply thread of one of their tweets. After some time, someone else — a good Samaritan — decided to intervene and reason with the abuser. But the abuser wouldn’t budge. The argument went on and on. But then something happened, which stopped the argument then and there. Another good Samaritan, a random third person, stepped in. They did not say a word to the abuser, but said this to the defender:
” Do not engage the troll “.
But then hey, what do I know? I guess sometimes they make it really really hard not to intervene, eh? Especially when someone — somehow — irks even BR 😐
Anyway, good riddance(I guess?). Well, mostly because I do not have the intellect to comprehend(!) his encrypted comments.
LikeLiked by 1 person
KV
October 10, 2018
From the definitive poet himself on how to live one’s life
ஒழுக்கம் விழுப்பந் தரலான் ஒழுக்கம்
உயிரினும் ஓம்பப் படும்.
For someone whose working life has been about espousing his proficiency in a language; and in a medium which gives him the opportunity to showcase that in various means – this accusation If true is the lowest of the lows that he could have got to.
I normally try to stay on topic but with this discussion veering off towards Pakistan and their treatment of certain sects –
If our neighbour (who we had no choice in selecting to be our neighbour ) is proving to be batshit crazy – do we try to reason around it ? We just acknowledge that they are crazy and move on. They aren’t going to change ever as long as they hold on to their ideology (note that I didn’t say religion as I still believe – even being an atheist – religion is just a set a guidelines to live one’s life if you need such crutches to get by.
Our neighbours have got it wrong for a long while now. Nothing we say is gonna change that. And nothing of that is going to impact us as well however much the powers at the Centre and State try to. For we are too many to be swayed by the rhetoric of a few deluded fundamentalists. Call me optimistic of India’s future but even with all the doom and gloom shouted from all roof tops , I believe that there is a silver lining just across the hor
LikeLike
Krishikari
October 10, 2018
“Isn’t anyone going to celebrate VN being deported?”
Even James Hadley Chase must be celebrating! Thanks BR, and also didn’t you kind of answer the question you asked by doing this banishing act?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Honest Raj
October 10, 2018
Tambidude: Giving BJP the credit for decriminalising sections 377 and 497 is akin to giving Kavithalayaa productions the credit for introducing ARR.
Do you know which Govt are they talking about. Congress knew that decriming it will infuriate their vote bank of muslims.
Umm, in that case I wonder why the BJP govt. has remained silent (forget about taking credit) over the 377 verdict. Remember their reaction after the abolition of triple talaq? As for adultery, I don’t think it affects any of the votebanks. IMO, these “landmark” verdicts hardly matter as they are non-issues for majority of the Indians.
LikeLike
Arjun
October 10, 2018
Ok, if you’re following Chinmayi and Sandhya Menon’s twitter feeds, at this point the question is not IF VM is a predator, but rather how many victims. Now to come back to your original question, I know it’s a difficult decision to make and a lot at stake potentially. But I believe ARR to be a decent man. And Chinmayi clearly has a lot of respect for him (he is even on her profile pic). I sincerely hope he takes a stand. Btw Ghibran has already tweeted in support. Very courageous of him. This guy is really powerful, believe me. He has connections and clout in every party including BJP, with whom he was getting increasingly close until the Andal non-controversy.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Tambi Dude
October 10, 2018
Rocky: Also there are plenty of liberals who have eng degree, some of them from IIT. Kejriwal is one. Dr. Zakir Naik is a medical doctor. I am sure if I have to spend some 15-20 more min, I can get a far bigger list of engineers with liberal values and talking the same language like Swara Bhaskar.
LikeLike
Honest Raj
October 10, 2018
Wish we have another thread to discuss the Sabarimala issue. It would serve as a litmus test to identify ‘Hindu atheists’. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
The Ghost Who Walks
October 10, 2018
@tambi dude
I have studied state board and all we studied was how Akbar was the ‘good’ mughal emperor. The ‘only’ was quite implicit to us even at that age. And like quite a few mentioned, Aurangzeb was Nehru portrayed as benevolent.. If your text books mentioned such things, clearly you are a minority at least on this forum.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 11, 2018
Tambi Dude, yes, I actually did learn about the destruction of Nalanda. I also learnt about the sacking of Somnath temple. No, I don’t remember the page numbers – what’s your point?
I didn’t learn about the Chittorgarh massacre. I also didn’t learn anything about Marthanda Varma or the Zamorin of Calicut other than the Portuguese came to trade and wanted to rule. It wasn’t until much later that I learnt that one of the most decisive naval battles was fought on Kerala waters and that we won! Again, what’s your point? As Madan says, the history of our country is so vast that it is unlikely that everyone is going to learn about every state. As far as I know, the history of Kerala was never mentioned in any textbook outside the state.
Our textbooks lauded Ashoka for turning to Budhism after the Battle of Kalinga, but not one of them taught us that he was known as ‘Ashoka the Cruel’ before that war. He salted the lands of the conquered if they didn’t accept him as overlord; he killed men, women and children mercilessly; laid waste to the kingdoms – all in the name of being a conqueror. But we never learnt any of this. Are you suggesting that that part of gory history of a Hindu king was whitewashed as well?
I strongly disagree that only the history of Muslims in our country was ‘whitewashed’ as you suggest. When we learnt about the Mughals and the Delhi Sultanate, we learnt the good and the bad. Again, as Madan pointed out, Akbar was the only king who got away with even a little praise for the secular ideals he preached and practised. Yet he was the same Emperor who issued a diktat forbidding Mughal princesses from marrying. Who could be unforgiving and cruel – even barbaric.
But that barbarism was not restricted to one religion – the Hindu kings were no less intolerant. The times were such.
And if Nehru ever asked anyone to softpedal Hindu-Muslim issues, then I need to know the context in which he said it. Because the nation was born out of bloodshed. And don’t tell me that during the Partition, only the Muslims committed barbaric acts. Trains filled with dead bodies went to and fro the newly minted nations. Both religions suffered. If the wounds are fresh, then you don’t poke the scab. Heck, 70 years after the event, we are still bleeding. It is easy to blame Nehru for all the nation’s ills since then, but what was the rest of the country doing in the intervening years? And now, the need of the hour is to rewrite history? And rename roads and buildings and build a ginormous statue of Shivaji spending Rs230 crores??
LikeLiked by 3 people
Swati
October 11, 2018
@Rocky: lynching is not a correct word to use and it was introduced for Modi govt by kgress. If you look into meaning of lynch and its history then what is happening in India since independance is mob violence and there was far more mob violence incidents under khangress govt. As to beef politics, I would only say that even in parts of Pakistan, people don’t eat beef “out of respect for our hindu brothers”. We don’t have pork fests and deliberately swing pigs to hurt others, do we now? THAT would be intolerance.
On Varun Grover. When a female accuses, 99.99% she is not lying. If he was acting as vishvakarma and rubbing himself against the woman, then I believe her. Just as I believe Tanushree.
On the whole metoo in India, the most egregious of them all, to me is Anuraag Kashyap. Aap se yeh ummid naa thi!
It is not the victims or the commiter of crime, for there will be in every society, but the enablers like kashyap that is reprehensible
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 11, 2018
One more actress who has come out against Alok Nath: https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/bollywood/deepika-amin-alok-nath-harassment-5396271/
And Siddharth and the director of Thamizh Padam has come out in support of Chinmayee against Vairamuthu.
“Multiple women are speaking out against Kavignar #Vairamuthu. Without judging anyone, they must be heard. When somebody of @Chinmayi’s stature who has so much to lose, stands by the accusers, that’s huge! There will be investigation. First step #ListenToTheAccuser #MeToo #Timesup,” – Siddharth.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Enigma
October 11, 2018
The so called ‘rationalist’ Vairamuthu turned out to be a scumbag after all. All these DK types are scum bags, perverts who do not respect women.
LikeLike
Enigma
October 11, 2018
I am completely shocked that so many cases of sexual harassments are being reported in the developed nations/west. I live in Sydney and there is no staring/leering at women, catcalls, trying to touch them in crowded places – stuff so common in Chennai, we take it for granted there – happens here. I am not saying that there is no violence – do read in the news frequently about such things- but it is not like in Chennai and in other places in South Asia where the staring, leering, touching can get quite disgusting.
Despite all these cases, I still feel that it safer for women in the developed nations- sure there are many unreported cases in India. Unlike in the west where Kevin Spacey, Harvey Weinstein and the others have been boycotted, scumbags like Vairamuthu will be defended by the Dravidian party thugs.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tambi Dude
October 11, 2018
@madan: I missed this gem:
“I have spoken to Pakistanis on social media (our common interest is cricket, of course) and even ‘reasonable’ Pakistanis are pretty hardline about Islam.”
LOL. Feel the peace man.
I understand not everyone has same interest/passion. In my case I do read books on Jihad and Islamism and I avidly read authors who oppose it. IMO, every liberal either willingly or unwillingly have been serving their agenda by simply ignoring the threat.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-2013-2/
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/#how-should-sharia-be-applied
Read the section of what % of muslims want death penalty for leaving Islam. yeah, if A R Rehman becomes Dilip Sekhar again, his head will be in a new place.
Even educated muslims in UK have same feeling.
And these are moderate muslims. Masha-allah.
That’s why I have nothing but scorn for liberals shitting from their mouth that india is currently 72% of Pakistan. Effing Jokers. I ask them one question. If the % of population in india is reversed : 80% muslims and 20% hindus, what do you think will happen to hindus. They don’t have to think. Just look at our neighbors in the west and east. Or even Kashmir, the only state in India where a successful ethnic cleansing has taken place. You won’t hear liberals talking about complete wiping out of Kashmiri Pandits from the valley, but their heart will bleed for one muslim killed for beef. One of the journalist I really like is Tavleen Singh. She speaks against ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits, she also speaks against cow vigilantism.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 11, 2018
Imran Khan on Vikas Bahl.
https://bit.ly/2QEOVTN
If he couldn’t speak out about what he heard, what he knew, can you blame the actresses who went through the trauma for not speaking out then?
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 11, 2018
And two more from Siddharth on the Vairamuthu controversy:
If the accuser names herself, you say she’s doing it for attention. If the accuser stays anonymous,you question her authenticity. The identity of the accuser is not relevant. That she chose to identify her abuser publicly is! Courage & closure supercede all else. #TimesUp #MeToo
— Siddharth (@Actor_Siddharth) October 9, 2018
And to any innocent man who feels he’s been targeted by vested interests piggy-backing on the #MeToo movement to settle personal/professional/political scores, fight the good fight! Don’t become the collateral damage. Don’t give up! Your innocence is also part of this movement!
— Siddharth (@Actor_Siddharth) October 9, 2018
I’ve liked him as an actor; now huge respect for him (and everyone else who did) for taking a stand. This is no time to be diplomatic and straddle the fence.
LikeLiked by 7 people
Madan
October 11, 2018
@tambi dude: Suppose I take it that NCERT textbooks in your time played down the full extent of brutality of Muslim conquest. Fine,that still doesn’t address the question I began with. What about teaching alternative science to students? The worst that can come out of teaching a watered down version of what the Mughals and Sultans did is that kids don’t grow up hating Muslims. The worst that can come out of teaching alternative science is…I don’t need to spell it out? Are you going to be comfortable driving on a bridge designed by alt science students? Considering even those designed by regular civil engineers have collapsed! What the hell is alt science anyway? This is just scientology by a different name. It is not unusual for different versions of history to be taught. It is not right but it’s a never ending culture war. The repercussions of tampering with science education on the other hand will be more severe. The way to fix things in this country, I would have thought, would be to avoid Chachaji’s mistakes, not cite them to justify oneself. The latter may give you the ephemeral pleasure of proving a point to liberals but in the long run the country goes down the drain anyway.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Tambi Dude
October 11, 2018
@honest Raj: “Umm, in that case I wonder why the BJP govt. has remained silent (forget about taking credit) over the 377 verdict. ”
Granted this is not an executive branch decision, but didn’t they say before the verdict that they will respect SC’s decision. Can you tell why this does not happen during Cong rule for nearly 60 years.
@madan: I missed this gem:
“I have spoken to Pakistanis on social media (our common interest is cricket, of course) and even ‘reasonable’ Pakistanis are pretty hardline about Islam.”
LOL. Feel the peace man.
I understand not everyone has same interest/passion. In my case I do read books on Jihad and Islamism and I avidly read authors who oppose it. IMO, every liberal either willingly or unwillingly have been serving their agenda by simply ignoring the threat.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-2013-2/
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/#how-should-sharia-be-applied
Read the section of what % of muslims want death penalty for leaving Islam.
Yeah, if A R Rehman becomes Dilip Sekhar again, his head will be in a new place.
Even educated muslims in UK have same feeling.
And these are moderate muslims. Masha-allah.
That’s why I have nothing but scorn for liberals shitting from their mouth that india is currently 72% of Pakistan. Effing Jokers. I ask them one question. If the % of population in india is reversed : 80% muslims and 20% hindus, what do you think will happen to hindus. They don’t have to think. Just look at our neighbors in the west and east. Or even Kashmir, the only state in India where a successful ethnic cleansing has taken place. You won’t hear liberals talking about complete wiping out of Kashmiri Pandits from the valley, but their heart will bleed for one muslim killed for beef. One of the journalist I really like is Tavleen Singh. She speaks against ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits, she also speaks against cow vigilantism.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tambi Dude
October 11, 2018
@honest Raj: “Umm, in that case I wonder why the BJP govt. has remained silent (forget about taking credit) over the 377 verdict. ”
Granted this is not an executive branch decision, but didn’t they say before the verdict that they will respect SC’s decision. Can you tell why this does not happen during Cong rule for nearly 60 years.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 11, 2018
Trying to reply to all, keeping the conversation to minimum just because it has gone too lengthy.
@rocky: The problem arises when these guys pretend to be experts on everything under the Sun.
Oh c’mon I find annoying RW who suspect everything as a conspiracy. How is that any better than the case you mentioned above.
@madan: “What about teaching alternative science to students? ”
Obviously it is wrong and dangerous. You seem to think that I agree with
every nut theory trotted out by the RW.
“The worst that can come out of teaching a watered down version of what the Mughals and Sultans did is that kids don’t grow up hating Muslims.”
And also 180 million assuming that Muslim raj was as benign as it could have been. You know why today’s jews do not hold today’s germans responsible for the holocaust. It is because after WW2, Germans had a genuine sense of reform and went to educate themselves the horrors of
nazism. heck, then even had a law to deny holocaust as a crime. I don’t see indian muslims showing the same attitude. Most of them think of Aurangzeb as their hero.
“Are you going to be comfortable driving on a bridge designed by alt science students?”
Oh please, this is massive exaggeration. How about this: how would you feel when muslims reach the critical mass to bring their sharia in india and start raping hindu women. As it is in Adyar, Chennai those jokers howl at 5am from mosque, with scant disregard for others.
@anu
“And if Nehru ever asked anyone to softpedal Hindu-Muslim issues, then I need to know the context in which he said it.
I tend to agree with you about Nehru’s intention. I agree that Nehru did it to focus on India’s growth (and he failed big time there too). But that doesn’t make his decision correct.
“Because the nation was born out of bloodshed. And don’t tell me that during the Partition, only the Muslims committed barbaric acts. Trains filled with dead bodies went to and fro the newly minted nations.
Do you know when Direct Action Day Happened. Do you know when Sikhs started retaliating. It was much after muslims started killing. Not everyone likes showing the other cheek.
“Both religions suffered.”
yeah right. Hindu radicals == Jihadis.
that’s why muslims in india breed like rabbits from 32 m in 1947 to 180mil today. that’s why there is not a single case of 50 odd islamic countries where non muslim population has grown in such numbers. Most cases they decline, some slowly some sharply. It is predicted that in 30yrs Bangladesh will not have any Hindu left. Coptic Christians in Egypt, Christians in Syria and other middle eastern countries are all vanishing. Universally there is only one golden rule to judge how minorities are treated. Look at their numbers. If they are declining, we know what is the reason.
In India the only state where minorities have been wiped out is Kashmir. Nothing can come close to islamic barbarity.
Wait. It is possible that Kashmiri Pandits asked for it since they were dominating all jobs. This is how the darling of media Barkha Dutt once
told in tv: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPZFmO2xL30
The message is clear: KP’s deserve the cleansing.
Also open your eyes and see all parts of the world. From USA to Europe, questioning the compatibility of islamic values with western civilization is now routine. India is not the only country. Fate of liberal govt like that of Angela Merkel is now decided on Muslim immigration.
Best is China. It takes islam as a mental disease.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/08/china-pathologizing-uighur-muslims-mental-illness/568525/
I know some liberals actually think that if India becomes a country of 78% muslims, India will still be secular. I Got to know what gaanja they smoke. Seem to be very potent.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Odiyan Hater
October 11, 2018
About Siddharth – why is he acting all pious now? He didn’t utter a single word when Dileep was released from jail and joined the sets of Kammara Sambhavam. It was bad enough he didn’t drop the movie(maybe he was contractually obliged)… a photo which had both of them smiling together surfaced online… This cannot be a case of recent realisation as siddharth in the past had reacted on sm against a sexist jack and jones ad featuring Ranveer Singh…So this means he chose to stay silent when his stakes were involved. All these celebrities are so fake and selectively take up causes to gain social mileage/currency…
LikeLiked by 3 people
Swati
October 11, 2018
“..this entire campaign over “lynching” is nothing but a fraud. Who concocted this fraud? The Congress and the media inserted this term into mob violence that existed in India long before ModiSarkar came into power. In fact, the incidents of lynching under ModiSarkar are far lesser in number than under the criminal Congress during their term… there over a dozen lynchings under the Congress in 2013 alone. So, if one digs deeper into the ten years of Sonia and Congress, they would exceed the number of incidents in the four years of ModiSarkar. This is not to justify any killing but to indicate how the media and the Congress have labelled and created a terror-syndrome called “Lynching” which has managed to fool even the SC. This is nothing but mob violence and mob frenzy which has existed for a long time but has surely been declining with greater awareness among citizens.
What exactly is lynching? In technical or dictionary terms, a lynching is the execution of a person alleged to have committed a crime without any legal process or trial. This form of execution was usually by hanging. This form of execution was invented by none other than the Christians. They hanged people for blasphemy or even burned them at the stake. They have hanged people for merely being “Black” or for seeking equal rights. Lynchings were part of Christian rituals and this evil was most practiced in Europe and the US for a long time. The pic with Blacks being hanged comes from the South in the US where the White Supremacists were not willing to accept the erstwhile Black slaves as equal human beings.
What is different from mob violence and the Christian lynchings is that their lynching had the approval of society. Just look at the crowds collected to witness and enjoy the lynching (pictures online). The purpose of bringing out a brief history of lynching being a Christian ritual is not to hold Christians responsible for mob-violence in India but to point out that the narrative is set by none other than Christian-dominated forces that still drive certain political parties and much of our media.
The source of the cow-vigilantes problem is cow-rustling and cow-smuggling. What if a man came out of his house and suddenly found his car is stolen? A family that loses cows or cattle feels much the same way. And as with cars, the stolen cattle is never found. It’s not a stupid anti-lynch-law that we need. That is based on a fraudulent narrative. What we do need is a law that severely punishes cow-thieves and smugglers.”
~
Ravi
LikeLiked by 2 people
Anu Warrier
October 11, 2018
Tambi – this is what I meant by ‘whataboutism’. It doesn’t matter what Nehru did. We have had 60 odd years since then to make any and all the changes we need. But you cite ‘What about Nehru?’ to defend Modi; ‘What about Muslims?’ to defend the crimes Hindus commit, ‘What about Pakistan?’ to defend what India is becoming. (Or ‘not becoming’ according to you.)
I ask you this – is not becoming Pakistan the best we can aspire to? I don’t doubt that Pakistan is all the things you say – intolerant, bigoted, repressed, whatever. Is that what you want India to become? Because, from where I stand, that’s where I see India moving. Only the religion is different, the gods we call upon are different.
The only thing that saves us – so far – is that we have too many manifestations of gods so no one can agree on the ‘one true god’. Islam, Christianity and Judaism don’t have to worry – they already laid claim to their own ‘true god’ and decided he was the only one.
I don’t give a damn how bad Pakistan is; I hate to see my country going the Pakistan way. I’m sorrowful that loving my country means I have to be blind to all its faults. Else, I’m not a patriot.
I like Hinduism because of its plurality of thought. I like it because of its acceptance of many different routes to an inner salvation. I hate to think of it in the hands of the so-called bhakts, whose religion seems to be the Hindu version of Islam and Christianity – and woe betide anyone who goes against the scriptures and ‘Indian culture’.
Let me also ask you this – where in ‘Indian culture’ or ‘Hinduism’ is violence against women glorified? Yet these idiots don’t mind calling for the head of an actress because she plays a character. (It is called ‘acting’ for a reason.)
Or uttering rape threats against a woman for daring to question the PM. Or keeping their daughters in ghoonghat because of some false sense of izzat and then killing them because they happen to fall in love with a man from the wrong caste/class/religion.
‘Ghar ki Lakshmi indeed – that, to me, is the ‘sacredisation’ of women. Elevate them to ‘devi’ and ‘ghar ki Lakshmi and then use that platform to confine them to the home. What is the ghoonghat if not a version of the purdah?
LikeLiked by 3 people
Anu Warrier
October 11, 2018
@Madan – [I’d originally written this comment to you along with a response to Tambi Dude in my previous post, and then cut it out because that post was too long. But what I said to you goes for me, also.]
I wrote this: Madan, take a break, bhai, the goal posts keep moving. Not even the fact that two of us have no said that our textbooks didn’t whitewash Muslim invasions seems to make a difference. Or that huge portions of our texts didn’t deal with many of our states – how many of you learnt anything about the North-east states in your history books? Yup, I thought so.
Anyway, after his last diatribe (which I didn’t see until I posted my looong comment), I’m bowing out. It’s tiring explaining facts to someone who persists in seeing ‘liberals’ as the enemy of Hindus. And never mind that we are both Hindus. We are obviously not the right Hindus.
I already have to deal with ‘liberal’ and ‘feminist’ as pejoratives in Trumpraj. Good to see that that’s the case over in India too.
Like cromagnon, I wear both labels with pride.
We’ll probably butt heads over some other issue some other time, 🙂 but for now, thanks for your arguments – even if we are not in complete agreement all the time.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Uncouth Village Youth
October 11, 2018
@Anu Warrier: While we are at ghoonghats not a single word on niqab or burqa ? Selective relegious appeasement will be the Kryptonite that takes liberalism down.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 11, 2018
@Uncouth – What is the ghoonghat if not a version of the purdah?
Reading comprehension needed.
LikeLike
sanjana
October 11, 2018
Anu, one true god that is agreed upon is Ram whether some south Indians agree or not.
I think militant hinduism is a reaction to other militant religions. This sudden development is somewhat traumatic for laidback souls. Its manifestation is consuming even the hindus who want to have a different take. It is like a strict teacher making the students obey without asking any questions all for their own good. Let us see where we will go. We tasted half baked secularism for a long time. And now we are tasting the other thing. It is still half baked secularism but with some conditions.
LikeLike
Anuja Chandramouli
October 11, 2018
A little late to the party but man, this is a fascinating thread! After the vitriolic madness of Twitter this is such a sane and safe space even when emotions are running high. I haven’t been reading Vivek Narain’s comments for a while since my brain insisted but kudos to all who called him out and BR for kicking him out! About time!!
“Innocent until guilty is the gold standard. If murder can wait for proof, everything else can.” Uncouth Village Youth, Word! I sympathize deeply with victims of abuse but for the greater good, I think it is important to listen but even more important to verify before believing. My apologies Anu, but I simply cannot get on board the concept of mob justice being ruthlessly and recklessly delivered via social media. When an accusation is made the onus of proof lies with the accuser, even if it means letting the guilty go free as long as an innocent person is not punished. And this is an unpopular viewpoint especially in light of increasing extremism, but I do believe in things like due process as well as checks and balances. And it is a dangerous world where people lose livelihoods over anonymous accusations. I can never support it.
I also find it problematic that mild flirtation, inappropriate propositioning, seems to be getting clumped together with serious charges like rape and/or murder. This can only undermine and derail the entire movement if we feminists insist on treating Alok Nath and Chetan Bhagat with the exact same amount of outrage. Which is why I feel that it is important to let go of the anger and hate, in favour of a more levelheaded approach towards ensuring that the wrongs of the past are corrected and our daughters don’t have to deal with sexist shit.
And Anu Warrior and Madan, I don’t think India is as bad as you make it out to be. The liberal media paints a dark picture about countless cases of lynching, intolerance and hate crimes but it is a skewed perspective simply because only negative headlines seem to grab eyeballs these days and the press has an axe to grind with Modi hence all sense of balance and proportion seems to have flown out the window. But if you ignore these and simply look around perhaps you will see an India which has it’s fair share of problems but it is a land where Muslims feel a lot safer than in parts of the middle east, Pakistan or even America. Anu, since we are talking history, my books on Prithviraj and Padmavati discuss at length the ugly politics engaged in by Hindu Kings who betrayed each other and welcomed Muslim rulers which led to a changing of the guard in India for better or for worse.
Finally, with regard to artists accused of misdeeds, personally I am a great believer in art for its own sake. Enjoy art and don’t fixate on the artist. There is no need to elevate good looking and talented people to demigod status or demonize them and dismiss their work. That would be a pity.
LikeLiked by 7 people
Rahini David
October 11, 2018
Siva: This whole “Don’t-engage-the-troll” advice tires me out. And the whole “here-is-the-magic-solution-that-you’d-never-have-dreamt-of” tone offends the damn hell out of me. I know you didn’t mean to and all that.
There is so much to say about it and I don’t have the energy to go into it now. But trolls are like rodents. Ignoring them will not achieve what you think it would achieve.
BR: I second Honest Raj’s request about a separate post for the women in Sabarimalai issue. But how does the whole requesting for a new thread work? Should the person send a seperate mail to you? Or would you just sense the need and create one?
Now that we have a “OffTheTopic” category and a “ReadersWriteIn” category not to mention the “AmatuersArt” category, perhaps you should write a few guidelines about how requesting for each works in this blog. Please make it a page rather than a post.
Honest Raj: Can you write it as a Reader’s Write In instead?
LikeLike
bala
October 11, 2018
Discussions in this blog go off-the-topic even for a thread titled off-the-topic.
BR, why do you waste your time on all these stuff?
LikeLike
Madan
October 11, 2018
@Anu Warrier: Seconded.
Tambi Dude: I have already explained to you that the history I read did not paint Aurangzeb as any kind of benign. But not only what I studied but going back to my grandfather. You don’t have a sliver of evidence for your claim that 180 million Indians actually believe Mughals were teddy bears. But guess what, you are going to hold on to it because it’s your narrative and narrative is most sacred to partisans on both sides, not the facts. And you will cite more nonsense from Shourie who is a relapsed bhakt who pretends to be nice now that he has discovered Modi’s true colours. So I am done. Continue spreading false narratives that justify the need to support a right wing party and continue ‘laughing’ at liberals. And hey, you live over in the States, right? So how does it matter to you anyway? No consequences to be borne personally. I unfortunately am not so privileged and will have to put up with this nonsense for several more years, if not a lifetime.
LikeLike
bala
October 11, 2018
If i say “I am a liberal, I am a feminist”, then liberal and feminist are good words.
If I say “You are a liberal, you are a feminist”, then liberal and feminist are pejoratives.
LikeLiked by 1 person
sanjana
October 11, 2018
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/metoo-movement-tanushree-dutta-files-firs-against-nana-patekar-and-3-others-over-sexual-harassment-1930189?pfrom=home-topstories
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
October 11, 2018
@Anuja Chandramouli: As I said earlier in the discussion, I don’t want to wait till conditions in India resemble Pakistan. I will call out the rising intolerance NOW when things can still be fixed with some effort. If I am exaggerating, it is for a reason. And if the bhakts can endure the non stop hyperbole from our Prime Minister, they can suffer my exaggeration too. If it hurts their feelings, too bad.
LikeLiked by 2 people
nikkie1602
October 11, 2018
The reasons for all the negative headlines is not because the liberal media has an axe to grind but because the lynchers are being garlanded and given state honours. Because people who burn other people alive and record it are hailed as heroes are going to be fighting elections next. Because not only are little girls are being brutally raped and murdered in temples to send a message, but support for them was pouring out on the streets with the tricolour flying high…yes the situation is this fucking grim! And yet the Supreme Leader cannot be bothered to make an adequate statement let alone a strong one. And please, let’s not fool ourselves. We all know that the ‘fringe’ enjoys the tacit favour from the main parties. So many of the trolls are actually followed by Modi on twitter. Atrocities on Dalits is at an alarming rise. This is not to say that these incidents never happened before, but now they happen unabashedly.
The rise of Modi and BJP has invigorated people who have nurtured hatred for a long time but remained silent. Now they have been let lose and they are at it with impunity.
I come from a family of hardcore right wingers and it makes me sick. And i also happen to be a research scholar at the University of Hyderabad, where Rohith Vemula committed suicide, so i saw first hand how the political climate of a place can change.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Amit Joki
October 11, 2018
Anuja: Exactly. Couldn’t have put it out in better words. More kudos on the point of viewing art for what it is rather than fixating on the artist.
But it is tricky when it comes to show business, because the artist is in himself/herself an art. Now do we want that art to be curtailed because of just an accusation without any proofs? If the proof is found and holds in court, it is sure that they cannot create their art any further, not in near future anyway.
For all the accusations, Chinmayi has made, there have been lots of tweets and blog posts where she gushes over Vairamuthu, somewhere around 2011 while she claims she was abused around 2005 according to her own statements, which reeks of hypocrisy (I don’t know if a person could gush over someone who has abused her).
If the above is not hypocrisy, then does she separate Vairamuthu the predator, and Vairamuthu the artist?
None of this is to doubt her allegations but the matter should be taken to court as soon as possible. It is time that these “allegations” become either proven and disproved. This will make things “official”. This will either save Vairamuthu his face and public image or he will be jailed and the world will be a better place.
I really hope Chinmayi is in the process of filing the lawsuit, she has surely grown to a level where she can handle the legalities now, which would have been impossible back in 2005.
One thing that’s heartening in America is that people there “sue”. They don’t just allege.
Look at Avital Ronnell who was sacked after the investigations “proved” Nimrod Reitman’s accusations. https://www.timesofisrael.com/nyu-suspends-jewish-professor-after-sexual-harassment-complaint-from-ex-student/ but, I guess, it is easier there to sue than here, I don’t know.
Many of the western #MeToo casualties have either themselves agreed and have apologised/are being under investigation/are serving jail time/have gone incognito as repentance. This lends authenticity to the claims of the women who’ve spoken up.
Given #MeToo in India is still in the nascent stage, I hope several people will be judged, not only in people’s perceptions but in also the court of the land. Glad that many advocates have come out offering free legal service to the people who have spoken up.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Aadhy
October 11, 2018
Anuja : I’m all for legalities taking its due course. But we should understand that Indian judicial procedures take its own time and not a lot of victims really can pull up a looong fight in the courts due to the skewed power dynamics between the harasser and victim. Moreover, since a lot of these incidents took place behind closed doors with no witnesses, the evidence might not prove sufficient for incrimination (except maybe Alok Nath and a few others) under the court of law. And I don’t think that’s the point of #metoo anyway. It’s a channel for the victims to call out harassers/creeps who get away with anything they do because of their clout. Not just that, many of these harassers position themselves as woke and progressive which makes them all the more dangerous. Social media shaming is a kind of swift retribution where SM is essentially the superhero enabling the victims.
“This can only undermine and derail the entire movement if we feminists insist on treating Alok Nath and Chetan Bhagat with the exact same amount of outrage.”
I don’t think anyone’s insisting to show same amount of outrage. They’re just letting out their bottled experiences for the people and potential employers to make a judgement call. If you as an employer/collaborator find the evidence against Chetan Bhagat insufficient or your company guidelines do not mind inappropriate flirting/creepy behavior, there’s nothing stopping you from hiring him, apart from creating an atmosphere of distrust and insecurity at your workplace. If you choose to work with Alok Nath however before the courts declare him innocent, you become an enabler.
I find the whole right vs left slander that’s happening in the Tamilsphere in Vairamuthu’s case to be disgraceful- Caste Hindus trying to gain mileage on the Andal issue through #metoo and Dravidian supporters’ blind defense saying Chinmayi’s attack is the right’s conspiracy to divert attention from Banwarilal Purohit. A harasser is a harasser and a victim is a victim, irrespective of what their politics might be. Though I align with most of dravidian ideologies, admire Suba veerapandiyan and Mathimaran a lot, their comments on this issue have been insensitive and distasteful. Vairmuthu’s defense statement has been nothing but appalling. When multiple people who are lower in the power equation make allegations against you, the onus is on you to come up with a factual defense, like what Varun Grover did, and not some generic lame ‘everything is a conspiracy’ statement.
LikeLiked by 7 people
sanjana
October 11, 2018
Old case of sexual harassment? A lawyer explains how #MeToo victims can take legal action
Lawyer Rutuja Shinde, who has offered her legal services for free in the #MeToo campaign, explains the legal options women who have faced sexual harassment have.
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/metoo-legal-guide-5396845/
LikeLike
sanjana
October 11, 2018
https://yourstory.com/2018/10/rutuja-veera-lawyers-meetooindia-moment/
LikeLike
Krishikari
October 11, 2018
Men against Violence and Abuse http://mavaindia.org/
Here is an organization dedicated to much needed education of men and boys about gender based discrimination and abuse. Bonus for this blog: They organized a film festival across India and are now taking it abroad. They are seeking funding.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Srinivas R
October 11, 2018
“A harasser is a harasser and a victim is a victim, irrespective of what their politics might be”. Thanks for saying that. My fear was always that the VM issue will be painted as brahmin vs non-brahmin issue in TN and that’s exactly where it is going..
LikeLiked by 2 people
sanjana
October 11, 2018
#MeToo hasn’t hit Indian sport because federations don’t make it easy to report sexual harassment
The law mandates that all workplaces, including sport facilities, need to have an Internal Complaints Committee. But not all federations are playing ball.
https://scroll.in/field/897677/metoo-hasnt-hit-indian-sport-because-federations-dont-make-it-easy-to-report-sexual-harassment
LikeLike
Rahul
October 11, 2018
Haven’t gone through all responses – I think this article answers a lot of questions raised in the original post on this thread.
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/09/how-we-know-kavanaugh-is-lying
I will copy paste some of the relevant sections (the whole article is a terrific read) –
Begin Quote
“What is the best way, then, to figure out the truth? It’s absolutely the case that Christine Ford has no eyewitnesses to support her. She cannot remember exactly where the assault happened, or exactly when. She can’t remember all the people who were at the house, and the people she does say were there have said they have no memory of the event. She told nobody about it at the time. Looking at these facts, we can see how someone strongly committed to due process might think the allegation extremely weak. (Just for the moment, let’s leave aside the two other serious sexual misconduct allegations against Kavanaugh.)”
“However, while these aspects of Ford’s allegation might lead us to demand more proof, they in no way make it inconceivable. In fact, they’re exactly what we might expect if the allegation were true. A girl attacked by two jocks at a party may not tell anybody, precisely because she knows there are no eyewitnesses, they’d back each other up, and even if there had been physical evidence they could never be convicted of anything. It’s not surprising that attendees other than Ford don’t remember this gathering; she says it was small and informal, and remembering who was at every small and informal gathering you were ever at in high school three decades ago is impossible. Ford (and the alleged perpetrators) is the only one it was a significant night for. So the lack of corroboration doesn’t itself make the allegation dubious, and if we demand eyewitnesses before believing victims, most of the time someone who did this would get away with it, because most of the time people are sexually violated in private. Of course there is a serious risk to the “believe all accusers” approach—it leads to wrongful convictions. But there is also a risk to a “never believe an uncorroborated charge” approach—it means that you can attack someone if you’re alone with them, and as long as you leave no marks, you’ll get away with it forever.”
“If we are taking an uncorroborated claim seriously, though, what does that mean for standards of proof? Much later in life, Ford told her therapist and husband, but at the end of the day we only have her word. If we were to base his guilt on her word alone, then wouldn’t people be able to make any kind of false allegation they liked?
Not quite. The existence of a “he said, she said” does not mean it’s impossible to figure out the truth. It means we have to examine what he said, and what she said, as closely as possible. If both parties speak with passion and clarity, but one of them says many inconsistent, evasive, irrational, and false things, while the other does not, then we actually have a very good indicator of which party is telling the truth. If a man claims to be innocent, but does things—like carefully manipulate words to avoid giving clear answers, or lie about the evidence—that you probably wouldn’t do if you were innocent, then testimony alone can substantially change our confidence in who to believe.”
End Quote
After this , the article goes into specifics, textually analyzing what both of them said.
This is where good reporting comes in , where reporters have to ask uncomfortable questions to both sides , and then analyze with objectivity. In Indian context, the example of Varun Grover is relevant where he is responding to the allegations against himself by asking questions and responding to specifics in the original allegation – like there was no dramatics society , it was a theater club etc. , and the basic validation that if that person was in IT-BHU at the time, etc.
Some people oppose media trial , but this is exactly the case where media trial is important\relevant. One may or may not be convicted in a court of law because of lack of evidence, but if an accuser comes forward then i believe its perfectly legitimate for a reporter to examine their accusations and the response of the accused to try to establish\guess what may have happened using different tools\methods.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Kay
October 11, 2018
Credit: Mriganka Dadwal in Facebook
Apropos #MeToo I couldn’t resist sharing my two cents. Two questions that should be asked of oneself when supporting or condemning a person —
1. What if the ACCUSED did not do it?
2. What if the ACCUSER really underwent the trauma?
Why I mention Accused and Accuser instead of He or She is because, having worked for 6 years in Gender-based violence prevention, I have learnt:
The Predator could be a man or a woman
The Survivor could be a man or a woman
This is not to disparage or downplay the current #MeToo tempest. On the contrary the horrifying accounts of people who went through Sexual Harassment make us realize how much more important it is to show solidarity to the survivors. That said,
TRIAL BY MEDIA is the by far the most self-defeating thing that has happened to the fight for Gender Justice. TRIAL BY SOCIAL MEDIA is even worse. When we sit on board Internal Complaints Committee, the actual process goes like —
1. A written complaint is filed by the aggrieved party
2. The respondent is given a fair chance to present case
3. Witnesses accounts are recorded
4. Evidence is weighed
5. In case of Sexual Harassment circumstantial evidence may suffice to take punitive action against an offender. If the case is found fake however, action can be taken against the accuser too.
With Social Media becoming the new jury, steps 1-4 seem to have been by-passed. Verdict is being delivered by every keyboard warrior on the basis of their opinion. Compassion has been hijacked by prejudice — one way or the other.
Worst, the fight against predators is becoming a fight between men and women.
If that isn’t self-defeating then what is?
LikeLike
Amit Joki
October 11, 2018
This might seem naive but, I’ve been watching quite a lot of Hollywood mystery films recently, Mystic River, Prisoners and many others.
So from those things, I’ve observed polygraph is de facto standard when it comes to investigations in America. I am wondering if that will be of any use in here? May be I’m misled from the movies and may be it doesn’t work right always or people could be trained to ace it.
But just a thought.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 11, 2018
Anuja, point to me one who has lost his job in India or has his career derailed because of what you call ‘mob justice’? The ones who ‘resigned’ were the ones where people had proof about their doings.
Can I tell you who lost jobs and livelihood over these allegations? Women. The ones whose careers didn’t take off because powerful men took their opportunities away. The list is too long to name, the victims had no ‘due process’ to turn to. In several cases, ‘due process’ failed them. Think of all the young journalist interns under MJ Akbar, for instance. Multiple women have come out now stating how he behaved – ‘Akbar’s harem’, indeed. What has he lost? The government is silent on the issue. So is Akbar.
Do you honestly think Bhagat will never write another novel? Or that Nana will never make another movie? Or that Vairamuthu will never write lyrics for movies again?
You should know how difficult it is to prove sexual assault, never mind harassment. Today, there are screenshots and email to offer as evidence. In many cases, there weren’t. Where do these women go? In Tanushree’s case, she spoke up in 2008. The police wouldn’t register a case. It was a media circus for 3 days. Then? She was shunted out of films, Nana went on to make many more. Who lost what?
‘Due process’, ‘law’, etc., are all skewed towards those in power. Many of these women did take recourse to whatever ‘due process’ they could. To what avail? Where is the proof they can offer that they were propositioned? Or groped behind closed cabin doors? Or assaulted at a party they attended?
I agree that what Chetan Bhagat did wasn’t anywhere close to what Alok Nath did. But it is harassment all the same, and needs to be called out. Because, apparently, he didn’t take their ‘No’ as an answer until they posted about it. The anger you see on social media is the anger of women who have had to keep silent over the harassment (benign or otherwise), who have had to laugh it off, to bear with it, have been shamed about it, have suffered immense mental trauma because of it and have lost their careers over it. It has become one large venting space. Is that mob justice that they are mobilising their collective voices to say, ‘Enough! Time’s up!’?
I’m glad you have faith in due process. Back in the late 80s, I went with a classmate to report her sexual assault. When we finished, she looked at me tearfully and said, ‘I’ve been raped all over again.’ By the time ‘due process’ finished with her, she was found hanging from a ceiling fan. Cry me a river that a man might lose his job over groping, pawing or raping a woman!
LikeLiked by 7 people
Anu Warrier
October 11, 2018
Re: the other points: others have said it better, so I’ll copy and paste parts of their arguments that I found most compelling:
@Madan wrote: I don’t want to wait till conditions in India resemble Pakistan. I will call out the rising intolerance NOW when things can still be fixed with some effort.
Yes!
@Nikkie said: The reasons for all the negative headlines is not because the liberal media has an axe to grind but because the lynchers are being garlanded and given state honours. Because people who burn other people alive and record it are hailed as heroes are going to be fighting elections next.
and This is not to say that these incidents never happened before, but now they happen unabashedly.
Word!
@Aadhy – his entire post!
Thank you!
‘Innocent until proven guilty’ seems to be misunderstood completely. That is the premise when the case reaches the court of law. In many cases of sexual harassment and sexual assault, the cases don’t even reach the police station, much less the courts. If they somehow do, women are harassed and forced to relive the trauma over and over and over again while the men they accuse often walk free.
What you’re seeing on social media is a catharsis – a place where now women are emboldened to share their stories, to know they are not alone, to know they are believed (because others have been victims to the same men).
And you know what? Barring an odd case here and there (I’m reserving judgement on Varun Grover because he has a solid defence and has offered evidence to disprove the allegations.) by and large, there haven’t been many ‘false’ allegations. But the harassment ranges from the odd creepy comment (just because you [general ‘you’] would term it ‘flirting’ is no reason that someone else can’t be skeeved out) to outright assault. And women are finding a place to let it all out. They know there is no legal recourse but now their accusation is out there, and other women are warned.
Also, very few women really want to come out even now. Unfortunately, it is still their behaviour that is questioned. That they can put their names to their accusations against powerful men is a strong point in their favour. Because, even today, they are the ones with the most to lose.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 11, 2018
When we sit on board Internal Complaints Committee, the actual process goes like…
Oh, I agree with this in principle. But having read accounts of how ICCs did nothing at all, and how even companies are admitting that their ICCs aren’t properly set up, or if they are, they weren’t run properly, colour me cynical that due process will work here.
In many cases, complaints filed by the women were totally ignored and they were sidelined.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tambi Dude
October 11, 2018
Indians have little faith in the judicial process for a valid reason. Barring few cases, justice is non existent. I wonder in how many countries will movies showing Vigilantism be hits. Many AB’s angry young man movies of 70s were based on Vigilantism. Gentleman/Indian glorified vigilantism. Once someone was trying to justify bad treatment of African students in India claiming that they are drug dealers and since handing them over to cops will result in slow justice , it is better to give instance mob justice.
BJP’s biggest failure so far is in the reform of judicial system. We all know Congress did nothing and will do nothing to fix it, but it hurts to see BJP callous about it.
LikeLike
Uncouth Village Youth
October 11, 2018
@Anu : Thanks for clarifying – some religions will be explicitly named and shamed, while for others people will have to use their “reading comprehension” skills.
@Rahul : You conveniently give the benefit of doubt to Varun G while denying BK his due. Twitteratti have posted SS of tweets, where VG himself has referred to it as BHU. Also remember as per Ford logic, victims might not remember the exact details. You cannot have it both ways mate.
@Anu : Your post confirms the saying “Everybody is a fascist given the right cause”. I just cannot fathom how someone can argue against due process, irrespective of their political inclinations or the causes they support.I can also point to Emmett Till, Central Park 5 and the RS-UVA story. Emily Yoffe had a very good article in Slate a couple of years back, about over zealous Title IX interventions, which were later thrown out in a court of law. So if things can go wrong with due process, what is the safeguard when there isn’t one. Anything that happens behind closed doors is very difficult to prove. If somebody assaults me at a party in a hotel room with no external wounds, what can I do if there is no corroborative evidence. What recourse do I have if I want to report this after 10 years ? “Cry me a river…” – is the exact language used by RW, when innocent Muslim youth are picked up for an investigation which cripples their life forever. Let’s not go there.
Having said that, I agree with you that this is more about catharsis and closure. I’m cautiously optimistic that there will be lesser harassment,groping & inappropriate touching going forward. What happens to the numerous men accused and whether they are will be rehabilitated, will define us as a society in the coming years.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Anu Warrier
October 11, 2018
Anuja – what happens when a woman uses ‘due process’:
http://www.rediff.com/movies/column/alok-nath-shows-no-remorse-for-what-he-did/20181011.htm
LikeLiked by 2 people
Rupa
October 11, 2018
Adding my thoughts to BR’s question and the thread:
Our society has been a failure. This is not breaking news but this fact doesn’t cease to surprise me every damn time.
I feel there are multiple levels to this and there is no one kind of response to this.
For instance, the veracity of allegations against Vairamuthu are different from the allegation about Varun. ( Disclaimer: From all that’s been happening, I personally think/feel/believe Varun is being falsely accused and he has come out with evidence, I’m watching it) Vairamuthu has smugly dismissed the allegations and Varun has given a factual statement and is working on getting ‘his’ truth out, whatever that may be.
The gravity of the allegations matters. The fact that so many women are putting their names/faces along with the allegations matters. These are not just whisper network allegations anymore. The very nature of these assaults makes them not prove-able in many cases. There may not be witnesses sometimes. The fact that many women(who also may not even know each other) complain against the same man from various times matters. From personal experiences and my POV, men are very capable of making creepy sexual advances/assaults without even having the person next to them notice it. Sometimes even unexplainable.
A woman is not believed by default; she has to create as much ruckus as possible to make herself heard. People have great difficulty in believing women. In all of history, there is always hesitation in believing women. It’s like she is a woman; why should I believe what she’s saying? But men can lie or tell the most horrendous ideas or say bullshit and still have people backing them up or not questioning them or not finding anything wrong or keep giving chances after chances. Men have solidarity amongst themselves this way. They back each other up. Ofcourse women are guilty of enabling this too. All of this gives them the power and they have the audacity to sexually assault/abuse women. They have immense confidence that the women won’t tell anything to others; they would not stand up against them and most of all women won’t be believed. Even after all this, men will still get away because people don’t care enough.
So when it comes to serious/multiple allegations and when matters have come out in the open, and for example, Vairamuthu, one cannot go on about business and pretend as if nothing has happened. It cannot be allowed that he just assaults a female fan for example he just met in the morning and writes a ‘Oru deivam thantha poove’ in the evening. If filmmakers/people do go on even after all this, they should be called out. For this exposes their utter lack of/disregard for empathy and their patriarchy and their misogyny. It means that they are complicit and are enablers. And I wouldn’t care about the ‘ART’ or the brilliant work anymore. And this disgusting crime will never stop and the status quo will never change.
Some assaults are openly true and horrifying as we can see; and it has become known what women(&men) have gone through.
At the very least I think the status needs to be — He/she is being investigated until proven innocent or guilty — This is what I need. There needs to be acknowledgement that the victims’ voices are heard. Man or woman. True allegation or false.
For accusations of this nature and this stature, the burden of proof is on the accused and I need statements from the accused about the allegation(s) without dismissing it – even if they deny the allegations. We can very well distinguish who’s telling the truth. We have to follow up; demand to know the truth and we have to care.
I’m sure in the rare cases where women falsely accuse men of such crimes, the man has the support and the social capital to fight against it. He will have the opportunity to defend himself and the law is of course there to protect him. A woman does not have this in even rightful cases where she has been abused. Right now, she, after much difficulty has the opportunity to come out with her assault experiences.
For this to change, we surely must go with our gut feel and listen to women and then demand of others that she be heard. Otherwise it means we don’t care.
LikeLiked by 7 people
Anu Warrier
October 11, 2018
Uncouth – I am not arguing against due process. I’m sorry that that is the way my post came out. I’m only saying that this movement that you see today is the frustration that women have felt when due process was denied them, or failed them.
With sexual harassment usually happening behind closed doors, it is very difficult for a woman to prove she was harassed, especially when the men in power are protected by the very processes she has to use to get justice.
I also apologise for my snippy remark about reading comprehension. I’m truly sorry! I assumed that saying the ghoonghat was like the purdah and then naming all the ways the ghoonghat was used to trap women under the guise of honour and protection meant that I thought the purdah did the same thing – a patriarchal ploy to keep a woman enslaved.
I hold no brief for Islam’s treatment of its women. I think it is shameful and was glad to see that the triple talaq was struck down. Now Muslim women have approached the Supreme Court for their entry into mosques and I hope the court will decide in their favour. (They did, in Haji Ali.)
The reason I name and shame Hinduism is because I am a Hindu. And I’m proud of being one. That doesn’t mean that other religions are all better than Hinduism. It only means that I’d like to set my house in order before I begin to address others’.
Thank you for not responding to my snippiness with more snark. Once again, I sincerely apologise for that remark.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Jaga_Jaga
October 11, 2018
I have a question to all the ladies here. We live in a society where the ladies typically don’t initiate an amorous act more often than not. Men start it. Sometimes women communicate not just verbally, but also by giving physical cues. Is the line between coercing a women into an act vs pursuing a woman because they don’t always verbally communicate a blurred one or it is rather easy to draw it??
I have never gotten a clear-cut answer to this one!
LikeLike
Aadhy
October 11, 2018
Are we talking about ICC? I suggest to have a look at this article to know the statuses of ICCs in South Indian media houses, ranging from mediocre to abysmal.
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/status-check-do-south-indian-media-houses-have-sexual-harassment-complaint-committees-89782
A lot of regional media companies don’t seem to have an ICC only, a few that do are not known to their employees, ICCs headed by men (against what the law states), ICCs with no training given to the members, ICCs with less than 50 % women members. The last case is prevalent even in a reputed publication like Vikatan. Here’s an excerpt from that article about what went on in Vikatan :
“She recalled three instances where such complaints were made. On two occasions, the male employees accused of sexual misconduct were sacked. In the third complaint, that involved a senior editor, the committee tried convincing the woman, assured her that it wouldn’t happen again. She, however, did not want to work under such circumstances and quit her job.”
The ICC seems to have defended the harasser since he’s a senior editor. Is there any doubt what would’ve happened with M.J. Akbar or K.R. Sreenivas, if the victim had approached the company’s ICC before garnering widespread support on social media? When Sun TV’s Akila did lodge a complaint with some ICC-like HR body in 2012 against senior editor V. Raja, this happened,
“Of all the people summoned, eight women said the worst things about me. We were friends, or so I thought. They said the most despicable lies about me and it amounted to character assassination,” Akila said. “This was not happening just at the committee hearing. They were spreading malicious rumours about me throughout the office,”
You can find her entire story here : https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/sexual-harassment-case-against-sun-tv-editor-2013-and-battle-between-journalists-60787
It’s been 5 years and the case is still ongoing. If this is the media, imagine the cine industry. Which committee should one go to make a complaint about a bigshot like Vairamuthu? Nadigar Sangam? Producer council? Do they have an ICC?
Varalakshmi Sarathkumar launched a ‘Save Shakthi’ campaign after the attack on Bhavna, supposedly to take swift action on sexual harassment complaints inside cine industry. Though she did tweet in support, what is the campaign actually doing now with all big names tumbling out, one of which is her own family member, Radha Ravi?
LikeLiked by 2 people
Anuja Chandramouli
October 11, 2018
“The anger you see on social media is the anger of women who have had to keep silent over the harassment (benign or otherwise), who have had to laugh it off, to bear with it, have been shamed about it, have suffered immense mental trauma because of it and have lost their careers over it.”
That’s my issue with the whole thing Anu. I am all for righting the wrongs done to women. But as someone who deals with anger management issues on a daily basis, I genuinely don’t think rage is going to lead to a change for the better. On the contrary, especially when anger spills over into social media and public spaces, it is a recipe for disaster and tragedy of epic proportions. Little else.
“Anuja, point to me one who has lost his job in India or has his career derailed because of what you call ‘mob justice’? ”
Of course, there are instances. Even if they don’t make it to the headlines. Boys don’t cry remember? And they are also taught to suck it up and bear it when they are abused, harassed or raped. A boy I know was gang – raped and he spoke to exactly 1 person about it. Men have also committed suicide because their exes prevented them from seeing their kids on top of falsely accusing them of dowry harassment. My psych buddies and I see quite a few cases like this, and we are constantly appalled by how vindictive and vicious the gender war is becoming. Following the #MeToo movement, men have also started to talk about lady bosses who abused their power and then threatened to cry rape. Don’t tell me these are isolated events. The truth is we can’t tell for certain when it comes to victimization. It is a little known fact that sexual predators go after little boys because girls are more closely watched.
When it comes to appropriate behavior in the workplace or otherwise, why even bring it down to a question of gender? Why do we have to be the kind of people who run around saying men are dogs and women are bitches? Why can’t we be humans who are civil to each other?
How can we turn back the tide of injustice? Relentless outrage isn’t it. A better option is to start believing and having faith that these things need not be resolved with violence, anger or indiscriminate punishment. I still think that things have improved for women today and we have it a lot better than our mums and grandmothers (and I am always surprised that women from these generations feel they lacked for nothing, don’t bother with feeling sorry for themselves and are such badasses). The future will be even better for our sons and daughters both. Believe it.
Also Kay in total agreement with your comment.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Aadhy
October 11, 2018
We have to also remember the victims calling out harassers on twitter right now still have a decent social (and economical) standing. The less privileged ones or a newbie/junior might have gone invisible by now had they taken on these powerful people directly, legally or through social media, the route being immaterial.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rahul
October 11, 2018
UVY – I am not giving anyone any benefit of doubt – and I wasn’t analyzing Vaurn’s response. Just saying that when eye witnesses aren’t present then we need to look at other things in the statements and other methods of corroboration.
It may have come off as I am defending Varun but that was not my intention..
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 11, 2018
@madan: “And hey, you live over in the States, right? So how does it matter to you anyway?”
You can do better than that (even for a liberal). Will you respect the same reason from a Kanpur person who defends CM of UP. “aap to mumbai mein rehte hain. kripya apnee guda dwaar ko band rakihye aur maharashtra ke baare mein sochiye”.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 11, 2018
Anuja, so I would like men to report their cases of sexual harassment as well. I am not deluded into thinking women are the only victims. And if a man came out to tell his #MeToo story, I would support him as well. As I would a man who had a false allegation levelled at him. Or a man whom the family court victimises when it comes to his children.
However, that does not mean that there has been a systemic imbalance of power between the genders, and that women get short shrift. Saying it’s not about the gender negates the legions of statistics and studies that show that women statistically form the greater percentage of sexual crime victims, they are more prone to falling into poverty after a divorce (not to mention the social stigma that still lingers), that they are more likely to be fired after they complain, though the ostensible reason is not mentioned, etc.
The outpouring you see is the helplessness of the victims who had no recourse so far except to suffer in silence. Calling out their abusers doesn’t mean that the entire gender is under attack.
Let me be very clear here: I support anyone, irrespective of gender, who has been a victim of exploitation and harassment. And I would urge each and every one of them to speak out.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Anu Warrier
October 11, 2018
Rupa, standing ovation. Thank you!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Apu
October 11, 2018
If this thread is still have #meToo then:
Arvind: “What’s the intent, what’s the motive? Does the accuser have anything to gain or a score to settle? If not, the only motivation they have is to get justice, for the cries that they have been suppressing, to be heard and the perpetrator shamed.”
Thank you, that is the basic point to be noted.
Sreehari: There is no creating the “ideal lover/boyfriend/men” here. There is clearly a difference between someone raping and someone having consensual bad sex. A person saying “he barged into my room totally drunk and pinned me down” is different from someone saying “he did not give me enough kisses before sex”.
It might be that you do not understand the issue here, or the problem that most women (and some men) have been facing.
The MeToo movement is not only about women coming out, there is ample space for brutalized men to come out against their predators. However, I doubt men have been given the social support to be vulnerable. Maybe, this movement would help.
The risk of innocent few losing jobs, reputation? Yes, always there – but isn’t that what courts are for? Social media trials – you think the innocent man has more to lose than the “woman who has been raped”?
Sorry if I sound a little disillusioned, but this is not an issue that I might have armchair views on. When someone comes forward to say “for 20 years I have been relieving those days of abuse”, you do not say “yeah, but where is your proof that you are not defaming someone for your five minutes of fame?” or “are you sure that it is not because you were not satisfied by sex that night?”.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Apu
October 11, 2018
Rupa: At the very least I think the status needs to be — He/she is being investigated until proven innocent or guilty — This is what I need. There needs to be acknowledgement that the victims’ voices are heard. Man or woman. True allegation or false.
Yes, exactly!
LikeLike
hari
October 11, 2018
The liberal opposition in India needs to come out of the “intolerance” and “India becoming next Pakistan” tropes to be taken seriously … just a humble suggestion from a humanist who wants the liberals to make the right noises and not just pick and chose the battles they want …
LikeLike
Madan
October 11, 2018
@Tambi Dude: You did not understand me. I am not saying it is none of your concern. Rather, I am saying, if it wasn’t clear enough the first time, that you do not have to bear the consequences of egging on a useless and futile culture war between conservatives and liberals because you do not live here in India where it is happening. Yes, it is that which you are partaking of here. It is the trolling in itself that is entertaining to you and the questions of debate themselves are irrelevant as long as you can provide what sounds like a suitable enough counter-narrative to you (like the complete false equivalence between alt science and a bogus notion of Muslim history whitewash). Which is fine as far as the internet goes but now this govt also wants to, if they haven’t already done so, give NRIs the right to vote. And I am thinking what happens if right wing NRIs (and yes, I have met them and the ones, unlike you, who ‘vote’ BJP in India and Democrat in USA are the best, by far) get together to vote the BJP back in (not that I think they are going to need those votes particularly in 2019) just to “see the liberals weep on social media and laugh” to paraphrase what you said earlier. This is nihilistic trolling of the sort Film Crit Hulk summed up very aptly in an article somebody had posted here. And it’s not BJP coming back which I dread as I fully expect them to win a sound majority again and hence have been mentally prepared for the eternal reign of terror long since, but the notion that even votes in a national election could be reduced to a troll game. And the consequences of that will be my legacy, not yours. Oh yes, you do have Trump, so that is assuredly a silver lining if it could at all be called that. The knowledge that this mindless destruction is mutual and for all of us to share and relish, not the exclusive pleasure of a privileged few, no sire!
I had said earlier that I have no interest in engaging you further on this but I am putting this out here just so that others of your ilk can also read this. Not that I hope to influence your thought process NOW. But in ten-fifteen or as many years as it takes to get to utter ruin, you will recollect it and realise. By which point it will likely be too late. But hey as I said, it’s a MAD (mutually assured destruction) world now so we can all enjoy the ride because there seems to be little choice in the matter anyway.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Gautham
October 11, 2018
I see this as a section of society collectively discovering their voices and that can only bode well for the functioning of a democracy.
LikeLike
nikkie1602
October 12, 2018
To get a better perspective on the failure of due process , i suggest one look at #LoSHA i.e. the list of sexual harrassers in academia
View at Medium.com
LikeLike
nikkie1602
October 12, 2018
By the way, I came across this article and was utterly gobsmacked…
https://www.arre.co.in/bollywood/bollywood-sexual-harassment-alok-nath-nana-patekar/
Thoughts?
LikeLike
Honest Raj
October 12, 2018
Tambidude: Granted this is not an executive branch decision, but didn’t they say before the verdict that they will respect SC’s decision. Can you tell why this does not happen during Cong rule for nearly 60 years.
As state elections are round the corner, perhaps, they wanted to play safe this time. Anyways, as I said earlier, the verdicts wouldn’t affect any of the votebanks (of any party) as they hardly make a difference to the vast majority of Indians.
LikeLike
Honest Raj
October 12, 2018
lynching is not a correct word to use and it was introduced for Modi govt by kgress. If you look into meaning of lynch and its history then what is happening in India since independance is mob violence and there was far more mob violence incidents under khangress govt.
Even if we assume what you say is true, why the BJP – while in opposition – did not even care to bring this issue up during the previous “Khangress” regimes? In this regard, “Khangress” is way better than the current govt, no? Somebody talked about Nellie massacre in the CCV thread. Has the BJP ever highlighted this (or the Hashimpura riots) – almost all of the victims in both cases were Muslims – in the same breath as the ethnic-cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits or the Anti-Sikh riots anywhere?
As to beef politics, I would only say that even in parts of Pakistan, people don’t eat beef “out of respect for our hindu brothers”.
Citations (from reliable sources) needed. Otherwise, the “go-to-Pakistan” slogan should’ve really been directed towards Hindus who maintain zero-tolerance policy towards beef-eaters.
We don’t have pork fests and deliberately swing pigs to hurt others, do we now? THAT would be intolerance.
Which part of the country do you live in? Pigs are being offered as sacrifices to numerous village and guard deities in many parts (mostly rural areas) across South India.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Siva
October 12, 2018
Rahini: My comment’s ‘tone’ offends you?! By all means, be offended — and all that. As people today feel offended for a hell lot of different reasons. It is an individual’s choice, anyway. Which, of course, is beyond anyone’s control 🙂
I found something nice and wanted to share that something nice was all. Which does not mean you do not know about that already. And it was no ‘advice’ — by any stretch. As a matter of fact, my comment had a second part which condoned what was going on here, in this specific case.
To quote myself:
” But then hey, what do I know? I guess sometimes they make it really really hard not to intervene, eh? Especially when someone — somehow — irks even BR 😐
Anyway, good riddance(I guess?). ”
Also, here is my humble 2 cents on engaging with trolls, — in the context of your reply — and I quote:
” Ignoring them will not achieve what you think it would achieve. ”
In my opinion, not ‘engaging’ a troll is not the absolute equivalent of completely ‘ignoring’ one. We can condemn their act, call them out for being a troll and even choose to throw in a brief rebuttal of any unfair/false accusation(s). To me, ‘engaging’ would mean taking it a lot further and going on and on, and to have an ‘it is either me or you’ kind of all-out assault, with repetitive to and fro arguments and as such. That, according to me serves no purpose. Because that is what the troll ultimately wants. To somehow draw us into an all-out verbal brawl with them. That is what a troll feeds on. Then they’d have won.
But then, — as with anything — there are exceptions. Sometimes they take it too far, or like what happened with ‘you know who’ in this thread — they are too insensitive, for us to choose to look the other way. In such situations though, we are left with no alternatives, other than to take action. Like how BR handled it here. He did not engage. He inquired what was what. And once the other side smirked about presenting their ‘wise ideas’ and what makes them ‘tick’, he did not engage any further. He just bid adieu. That was all. Hypothetically, just imagine the whole stretch of counter arguments and what not if BR had chosen to seriously engage further. That would have been nothing but a lot of unpleasant reading for the rest of us. As far as the ‘taking action’ part goes, in my opinion, we’d do better if we proceed with it based on what a particular situation demands. In my humble opinion again, there is no one concrete solution or methodology when it comes to dealing with trolls. Be it either defense, offense or ignorance.
But then hey, what do I know? Feel free to be offended.
Wish you a very nice rest of the day 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
sachita
October 12, 2018
I dont want a mob trial but I do want a fair one. This is why a CEO has to resign in what is termed as consensual affair. Because if that person is up in the management line i.e powerful, when saying no might have strong consequences, there wasnt a fair environment either way.
When there are allegations, a temporary suspension is required so that a fair trial can be received.
Chinmayee was asked by vairamuthu through a third person to come to his room. She refused. What will courts will do in this case? a slap in the wrist that is all. This is for amit joki asking her to go to courts.
But the production companies and cinema association need to have laws/policies to have safe environment work place.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Siva
October 12, 2018
Anu: The clarity of your thought and expression — 👏 clap, clap 🙂
In fact, Anuja inadvertently (I guess! ) spelled your surname as ‘Warrior’ in her first comment. Seems apt to me though. Or is it is an alternate spelling like this ‘geni’ website says? 🙂
https://www.geni.com/surnames/warrier
Also,
” Trumpraj ” –> 🤣 ROFL on this naming of the orange idiot’s tenure 😆
And I like how Kimmel (I love him 🙂 ) and other late night hosts roast the Commander In Chief every day. I am sitting in Chennai here, eagerly looking forward to Mueller busting the moron’s ass and impeaching him.
I have always wondered this though. Do you think India could ever have a late night show (or even a daytime show like Ellen does) where the host can unmercifully roast politicians, without the fear of getting killed? I would love to have one (in English though; I don’t know Hindi) here! (Utopia? 🙂 )
May be in another 50 years at the least? 🙂
LikeLike
Arjun
October 12, 2018
Now, as I feared, those who started it – Chinmayi and Sandhya Menon are themselves diluting it. For example – https://twitter.com/TheRestlessQuil/status/1050252286658662401
Now first of all, this is an anonymous person and there is no indication what, if any the power imbalance was. To me, the language suggests someone not actively involved in the music industry, maybe a fan…. Second, even assuming there exists some power imbalance, this simply cannot be considered harassment or abuse IMO. Unwanted attention, yes. That too, one time. He is asking for permission to touch. What else is expected? Like Jaga jaga I am also confused now. Granted that the masturbation talk is awkward and for the woman, possibly gross and disgusting. But what exactly is the harassment/ abusive behavior here? If every awkward propositioning is going to be tagged with a#metoo and #timesup, people, especially men are quickly going to lose interest in supporting the movement.
LikeLike
sachita
October 12, 2018
I also want to add, for quite a few #metoo stories, sathayama one cant even conjure up these sort of horror stories.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tambi Dude
October 12, 2018
@madan:”And I am thinking what happens if right wing NRIs (and yes, I have met them and the ones, unlike you, who ‘vote’ BJP in India and Democrat in USA are the best, by far) get together to vote the BJP back in (not that I think they are going to need those votes particularly in 2019)”
Will you stop making assumptions about people you don’t know. Trump was the first R presidential candidate I supported. Mainly bcos between the two poisons he was lesser. Election is all about choice. If Hillary had won, her Sasikala Huma Abedin would have been the chief of staff. That half paki b***ch and her Muslim Brotherhood supporting father would have influenced POTUS Hillary to go easy on Pak and get tough on India :-> Hand over Kashmir to Pak on a plate with ladoo.
After Nov 9 2016 I was telling my friends that I hope Trump gets knocked out of WH on some pretext because he is an embarrassment. My mission was already accomplished on Nov 9.
“But in ten-fifteen or as many years as it takes to get to utter ruin, you will recollect it and realise.”
With due respect to your clairvoyant abilities, the above statement is laughable.
You are 20 years younger than me. At your age I was a die hard Cong supporter too and far more liberal than what I am now. I even believed all religions are same and no religion teaches violence. I thought secularism mean respecting all religion even if in reality in India it means taking majority for granted and do everything possible to keep minority happy with vote bank politics.
Isn’t it amazing that liberals predict utter ruination of india in 15 yrs, but when hinduvta type predict muslims becoming majority in X years and then giving hindus the Kashmiri Pandit treatment, they are branded as scare mongers.
Yes I have dislike for liberals. I do not think that liberalism is some holy concept beyond scrunity or liberals have higher moral turpitude. I consider them selfish **** who won’t bother about anything until it hits them personally.
Let me give you an example of how pathetic liberals are? You remember George Zimmerman. The man who killed Travyon Martin. When his trial was going on, liberal media was trying to project GZ as a white. Why? Bcos it suited their narrative of white oppressors.
I do not like US Conservatives on many issues like Gay, Aborton etc. But to say liberals are paragons of virtue is equally stupid, if not more.
Anyhow you are a good man. You write very well. Good luck. My apologies for offending you. Let us not talk about politics here. So is Ilayaraja a conservative or Liberal. I know he recently pissed off christians 🙂
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 12, 2018
@hari: “The liberal opposition in India needs to come out of the “intolerance” and “India becoming next Pakistan” tropes to be taken seriously … just a humble suggestion from a humanist who wants the liberals to make the right noises and not just pick and chose the battles they want …”
Well what else can they talk about where they don’t get a chance for virtue signaling. Award Wapsi, India becoming Pakistan, Most Intolerant Nation, AshamedTobeIndian is required for virtue signaling and to call Modi govt a disaster. Remember Nirbhaya rape in 2012. There was big protest and marches, candle light, but not one of them insulting India. Now, after every rape (where the victim is not a hindu), SJW Swara Bhaskar will be standing with #ashamedtobeindian crap. Every tees maar khan is now an activist too. That’s the tragedy. Sometimes I wish Modi govt has coal/2g/national herald scam every month, just to divert the attention. In that way Rafale and #metoo is good.
LikeLike
Voldemort
October 12, 2018
Anuja Chandramouli and Anu Warrier : Brilliant comments. Couldn’t agree more.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 12, 2018
First, a lot of ‘thank yous’. To BR, for allowing us this platform (and to those who requested it).
To Madan, whose arguments I may not always agree with, but whose reasoning for his position is sound.
To Aadhy, for generally being the rational voice on this forum.
To everyone who has been passionate about this cause and have written eloquently about it – whether for, or against.
To Siva and Voldemort – thank you for the appreciation. re: late night shows – no way. We are a humourless lot. Someone somewhere will get offended.
To Tambi Dude – thank for letting me know just what you think of women. And of Muslims. And liberals. And of humanity in general.
@Arjun – that is not dilution. That is textbook harassment. He talked about her body, talked about touching it – to a woman who is clearly not interested. Perhaps you have to be a woman to realise why it is harassment.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Anu Warrier
October 12, 2018
Apu – I specifically wanted to mention this: Social media trials – you think the innocent man has more to lose than the “woman who has been raped”? though the rest of your post is relevant as well.
Hats off, lady.
LikeLike
Madan
October 12, 2018
Tambi Dude: But I am not a Congress supporter and never have been. I don’t even have to be against BJP to criticise them. It is remarkable that age and experience has only made your thinking about politics so binary. So yes I would not want to discuss politics ever again with you, no thank you.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 12, 2018
Apu – I specifically wanted to mention this: Social media trials – you think the innocent man has more to lose than the “woman who has been raped”? though the rest of your post is relevant as well.
Hats off, lady.
@nikki – I don’t like innuendoes. I don’t like spurious gossip. So if this author knows, then why isn’t he/she speaking up? Name them. Or don’t. This is like Kangana accusing people who knew only speaking up when the man was ‘weak’, and offering a weak rationale for not speaking up earlier either. She too only spoke up when the ‘man was weak’. Right?
Disclaimer: I’m not saying it isn’t as the article states. But this only muddies the waters.
LikeLike
sanjana
October 12, 2018
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/hindi/bollywood/news/metoo-actress-saloni-chopra-accuses-sajid-khan-of-sexual-harassment/articleshow/66172145.cms
Sajid Khan and Subhash ghai get their due.
LikeLiked by 1 person
nikkie1602
October 12, 2018
@anu: Actually, the article didn’t come across as gossipy to me…it felt like the author wanted Bollywood to not merely pay lip-service to the movement but to take on the big names. But maybe you have a point.
Also I mentioned the article because if true the rot runs deep, the accounts are horrifying. This article was put on the Film Companion group on Facebook. The comments section was full of names like Rajkumar Santoshi, Indra Kumar etc..I didn’t know these were ‘open secrets’…maybe I am too young to know about the news surrounding these particular men.
LikeLike
sanjana
October 12, 2018
Subhash Ghai Denies He Raped A Woman, Calls #MeToo ‘A Fashion’
“I deny strictly and firmly all false allegations like these,” said Subhash Ghai
https://www.ndtv.com/entertainment/subhash-ghai-strictly-and-firmly-denies-allegations-after-named-as-alleged-rapist-1930698?pfrom=home-topscroll
LikeLike
sanjana
October 12, 2018
https://www.hindustantimes.com/bollywood/sajid-khan-accused-of-sexual-harassment-by-three-women-read-details-here/story-06lhxgFFsNjYYpMAbWDlNO.html
LikeLike
Arjun
October 12, 2018
@Anu: that is not dilution. That is textbook harassment. He talked about her body, talked about touching it – to a woman who is clearly not interested. Perhaps you have to be a woman to realise why it is harassment.
That may well be the case. But to my male mind, this seemed more like extreme flirtation, especially as it was a one-time thing. Now if he had repeatedly pursued the same woman in the same manner, then that would be harassment. I personally don’t think anyone, celebrity or not should be publicly branded a sex-offender for slightly overstepping the flirtation line, that too when no threats, coercion or even actual physical contact was involved.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 12, 2018
@Arjun, in what world is talking about masturbation to a woman at a public function ‘flirtatious’? Extreme or otherwise?
What kind of man, when he meets a woman in public, talks about her body and how he would like to touch it, and how he masturbates thinking of her, and thinks this is within normal bounds of flirtation?
Take it from a woman – this is NOT flirtation. This IS harassment. Unless you [general ‘you’] and she are in a relationship and this is the kind of role-playing that adds something to your relationship. The average woman doesn’t want to hear about some random guy’s fantasies about her.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Arjun
October 12, 2018
“What kind of man, when he meets a woman in public, talks about her body and how he would like to touch it, and how he masturbates thinking of her, and thinks this is within normal bounds of flirtation?”
Well, I don’t, but I don’t claim to speak for every man.
“Take it from a woman – this is NOT flirtation. This IS harassment”
Assuming I take your word for the former, the latter part is what I still don’t get. Harassment implies a pattern, some sort of threat and intimidation, doesn’t it? Why does this alleged behavior as described fall under the ambit of harassment in your opinion?
LikeLike
sravishanker1401gmailcom
October 12, 2018
My 2 Cents…..
CARTOON #ME TOO
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rahini David
October 12, 2018
Siva: I wasn’t actually seeking your permission to feel offended when I felt your tone was condescending.
But thanks 😀
LikeLike
Rupa
October 12, 2018
I completely agree with Anu.
It is NOT flirtation but harassment. He is just offloading his fantasies onto a random woman. In various experiences we’ve heard so far, we’ve seen that he(the man, in general) is not listening to the woman or noticing her objections. That doesn’t matter to him. He just keeps on going. It’s one-minded gross sexual harassment.
It amazes me that some men are not able to distinguish between flirtation and harassment! Straight men surely can understand consent and harassment when it comes from a gay guy making advances on him (even flirtation makes the straight guy uncomfortable). Straight men even get uncomfortable and feel harassed when they receive advances from women THEY are not interested in.
Why is it then that they don’t get the reality of HARASSMENT women face from men??
LikeLiked by 4 people
MANK
October 12, 2018
Social media trials – you think the innocent man has more to lose than the “woman who has been raped”?
What kind of screwed up logic is that ?. How can one quantify,how can you compare?, how can you put a number on either cases. these sort of broad sweeping generalizations are the bane of a movement like this.No nuance , no context.
As for people saying ” innocent until proven guilty” is for an ideal world, let me tell you, it is specifically for an imperfect world like ours, the democratic system is a very very flawed system, we choose it because the rest of the systems are even worse. here we identify the worth of the individual citizen. he is given limitless rights to prove his innocence in a 3 tier or 4 tier judicial process extending from sessions court to supreme court , simply because we believe that the system is fallible and on no account an innocent should be victimized .
All said and done social media is not going to give anybody justice , Only the judicial system can, however flawed.Take names by all means , relate your trauma, But Taking names on SM has to be followed by a proper judicial process, Culprits have to be brought to justice and punished. we need to have that message trickle down the social ladder, because that’s where the effect needs to be really felt, we need to simplify and speedup the process of law.I know how difficult it is to get a case registered in a police station. I fully empathize with what Anu said about her experience of filing a case for her sexually abuse friend. The cops take vicarious pleasure in torturing the victims when they come t register such cases. The changes need to happen here, on account of this movement. Not in letting SM become the judge, jury and executioner. otherwise all this is for nothing. this will just remain an upper class movement , an elitist movement. A lot of upper class people naming and shaming a lot of other rich people. merely importing a high profile movement from the west would not do, simply because the upper classes in our country are much more in tune with what happens in US than with whats happening in the lower strata in our own country. it will just end up like like a Sanjay Gupta copy of a Hollywood film
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
October 12, 2018
@Arjun: Male talk about masturbation, fantasising, sexual conquest comes across very differently to women because it tells them our predatory instinct is on. That we want to be inside them (all: sorry to put it this way). Obviously they would get freaked out by it. I think it goes well beyond awkward. It would take someone truly dumb to not understand that you can’t talk about masturbation in a woman’s presence. I don’t think Karthik is that dumb so he was likely riding on his power and getting away with it. That is if the allegation is true.
LikeLiked by 3 people
nikkie1602
October 12, 2018
If you followed the movement in the US, the conversation wasn’t only about explicit sexual harassment. What came into deeper focus was male entitlement and general predatory behaviour, the understanding of consent and the overall dynamics at play between men and women. So when stories come out and people observe that oh this is just flirting this isn’t harassment…no! You really need to listen. What is being said is that this type of behaviour isn’t appropriate, it makes me uncomfortable, it is not okay and it should not be normalised.
If I may, i recall this incident when I was in the first year graduate student at EFLU. I was meeting a friend in the men’s hostel, when a senior asked me to speak to him in the corridor for a minute. He talked about random things and went on about how the beer is really good at this one place and how I should try it, how his father once told him that we meet some special people in life and how he felt I was one. He wasnt standing too close, he didn’t even attempt to touch me although I could smell some whiskey. But I was petrified and was blubbering something or the other. It was only when my friend came out of his room and forcefully said we are getting late let’s go, that I moved. By the way this was my second meeting with him. The first one was on the first day of college, when he wanted to borrow a pen to fill some forms and he just made regular small talk about whether I was from the city and which course I was enrolled in. I later found out at the guy was from some influential family in Haryana and he later went on to threaten my friend in a drunken stupor asking him to stay away from me. This was in 2009, not that long ago and literally the first week of college.
My point is this entitlement has to stop and for this the stories need to come out and more importantly listened to without labelling them anything. Just engage with the conversation, understand and introspect.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Madan
October 12, 2018
MANK: Wonderful balanced comment and a reality check. I think only the Vinta Nanda-Alok Nath case compares to what the lower income group women go through. Harassment, rape or attempts to rape, domestic violence, they bear the brunt.
Rupa: I agree as a male. There is no scope for confusion. Don’t buy the innocent boy plea. Men know when what they are doing is making a woman uncomfortable. OK, except when they are severely under the influence. And they will then maintain in their sober moments that alcohol has no connection to sexual harassment. In an abstract sense, yes, the way you can drive recklessly even when sober. But when you’re drunk, the risk assessment has to be raised drastically.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Rupa
October 12, 2018
Arjun:
Even as you are only still -assuming- that it is not flirtation and taking Anu’s word for it…
Unwanted sexual or obscene remarks or advances amount to harassment. It is very intimidating and traumatic when the man does stuff like this. In person, it is more than just an awkward situation. It is very creepy, sleazy, is an invasion of personal space and safety and the first thing that comes to her mind is whether she will get raped by this man and how to escape from there without causing him to aggravate and worries for her safety.
Is this not enough intimidation? Do you know how easy it is for the man to do all this without anybody knowing and to maybe even forget the woman later and what he did to her? Do you know that the woman maybe never is able to forget these incidents? My women friends and I remember every single assault of various degrees to this day and every time we speak/think of it, it makes us shudder. This is also an assault/harassment on our bodies and minds and well-being.
Even if it happens once, it’s harassment. When harassment becomes a pattern, it becomes serial sexual harassment.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Tambi Dude
October 12, 2018
MANK: Social Media is just a medium of information. The problem is not in the SM, but the prevailing attitude in our society (that judge jury and executioner thing you mentioned). All SM did is to let millions express themselves. This is not a right vs left thingy. Both are equally guilty. I find the RW in SM extremely sensitive to any slight about India, perceived or real. To give an example: About 2 yrs ago an American tourist to India blogged about his experience in Mumbai where he saw a man hit by a car on a street and injured badly. He saw people walking around as if nothing has happened and no one offering any help. What got the RW roiling was his statement “may be different cultures have different values for human life”. That blog made its way to Twitter and every RW troll was abusing him and USA.
That being said, SM is going a great service in calling out main stream media. 30 yrs ago in India if I read something in Times of India, what choice I had to dispute nonsense written by Giri lal Jain.
Every media and human has an agenda. We tend to highlight the bias of only those we don’t like.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tambi Dude
October 12, 2018
CNN calls Kanye West a N***gro. Why ? Because he met and endorsed Donald Trump. As cringe worthy as it was, does that justify the use of this word. I hope CNN is called out for this. Imagine the same in Foxnews.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Kay
October 12, 2018
”My women friends and I remember every single assault of various degrees to this day and every time we speak/think of it, it makes us shudder. This is also an assault/harassment on our bodies and minds and well-being.”
Very true. I remember every single incident to this day. Even those that happened 20 years back. The sad part is I don’t think there is even a single woman who was never harassed.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Anu Warrier
October 12, 2018
Arjun, man, I give up. If, in your male mind, you cannot see the difference between ‘flirtation’ and what the man did, I. Give. Up.
LikeLike
Arjun
October 12, 2018
@Rupa, Nikkie: Thanks for those perspectives. Obviously as a man I can not fully understand how a woman feels about these things. Now I personally DO find it inappropriate and creepy., but wonder if maybe different men and women have different boundaries.
@Anu: Not entirely unexpected
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 12, 2018
@anu: “To Tambi Dude – thank for letting me know just what you think of women. And of Muslims. And liberals. And of humanity in general.”
Besides sufficiently demonstrating so far that you are not well read on many issues, are you desperately trying to add inability to read/comprehend also as your next skill. Can’t you see I never commented anything on women and the only comment I made on the metoo movement was about CF vs BK where I unequivocally claimed that I believe CF’s allegation. Hey I am disappointed. Why not call me a racist too? After all liberals are masters in virtue signaling.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 12, 2018
How did I miss this. Madan, I know you want to put an end to our tete-e-tate, but I can’t let go an old reply answered.
“@Tambidude: Whoa, hold on. Mike Savage is far out stuff. If he sounds smart the one time (the way a broken clock can be right twice a day) while mocking autism and PTSD, I am going to give more weightage to the latter to tell me all I need to know about him.”
Madan: Mike Savage is a racist idiot. Just because I produced a link does not mean I endorse him. I tried to read that book and could not go past 25 pages. Full of rants with shifting goalpost. No clear definition of what he defines as a liberal. One disagreement -> bingo you are a liberal.
The only thing I still remember of him is a funny remark he made while ranting his hatred for gays. He told “if I had my way, I will take them to the top of a mountain and ask them to do bungee jumping, with no rope”.
BTW his career his over. After his autism remark, advertisers pulled out in droves and he lost his franchise. These days he jerks off in podcasts. Good riddance.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 12, 2018
Sigh. When I thought this was over: my comment about your attitude towards women had nothing to do with ‘MeToo’; it had to do with your reference to Huma Abedin as ‘that half-Paki b*h’.
Your derogatory reference to a woman, albeit one whose policies you cannot stand, is what I was referring to.
Besides sufficiently demonstrating so far that you are not well read on many issues…
Ha ha ha ha ha ha 🙂 Says the man who presents his own version of History. In any case, since I don’t need you to validate either my general knowledge or my intelligence, I’ll cede this nastiness to you.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 12, 2018
For Anuja – just in case you’re still reading:
You raised doubts about due process and the #MeToo movement’s trajectory. This explains it quite a bit.
https://www.livemint.com/Leisure/LhMn4nQG1Rmic88lB1ZDaJ/MeToo-is-anarchic-and-thats-a-good-thing.html
Just a couple of quotes from there:
#MeToo isn’t cut and dried, and can’t be. It was never simply about finding legal recourse; from the beginning, it has concerned itself with exposing a social faultline.
Patriarchal norms that made it easy to victimise women thrived because of our permissiveness, our silence, our collective reinforcement. Now the dismantlers of those norms were speaking; their quantum of accusations would turn the power of collective reinforcement back on their abusers.
#MeToo is an aggregative movement: it draws power from detecting patterns in the behaviour of abusers. Individual men may bear the brunt of answering for their transgressions, many of which have been totally normalized by the culture (“It’s bad that he did it, but doesn’t everyone?”), but the point is to lay bare the social conditions that render these misdemeanours trivial, even acceptable, even though they hurt and degrade their victims.
The article also talks about men who have been falsely accused – and how the #MeToo platform is a redressal forum for them as well.
Do take a look.
LikeLike
Rocky
October 12, 2018
@Tambi- 30 yrs ago in India if I read something in Times of India, what choice I had to dispute nonsense written by Giri lal Jain.
LOL, read the name of Giri Lal Jain after ages. He was a true chamcha of Indira Gandhi, remember my father, Tau jee and elders getting mad at reading Jain’s long editorials.
LikeLike
Rocky
October 12, 2018
I am really happy that Aamir Khan, Akhshay Kumar and Farhan Akhtar have taken a stand.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 12, 2018
@anu: I know getting informed is not a requirement in your life, but I may offer
free help.
https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/292310-huma-abedins-ties-to-the-muslim-brotherhood
“Simply put, Huma Abedin worked for thirteen years as part of an enterprise whose explicit goal was to conquer the West in the name of Islam. No wonder the Clinton campaign wants to sweep this issue under the rug.”
Look it up you will find many hits.
Liberals are nice people, but they like to believe the world is actually what they want to see, not what it is. This is best explained by a analogy of liberals going to a restaurant and looking at the menu where they find lot of tasty but unhealthy food. They also see less tasty but healthy food. Like any sensible health caring person they opt for healthy food, which is fine. What makes them intellectually lame and dishonest is when they go out and recommend to others “hey that restaurant serves only healthy food”. Such acts may get them 2 million followers in twitter, but little beyond that.
LikeLike
Madan
October 12, 2018
Tambi Dude: Well, it came across that way in your post, so sorry if I misunderstood you. And at least I don’t have the ability to enjoy something funny said by a man that hateful.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 12, 2018
Madan: Yeah I could see that it came across as if I am endorsing Savage (gasp). I was intrigued by the name “Liberalism is a mental disorder”. Who would think of such a name.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 12, 2018
@rocky : Notice that social media companies like twitter and FB have officially admitted that they are biased towards left liberal news. Robert Spencer of Jihadwatch is now facing boycott from Credit Card companies and sites like gofund.me because he has the temerity to question the creeping shariaism in the west. Is it even a level playing field. I think MSNBC has every right to exist. Just like Foxnews. They both have a place in acting as checks and balances.
Anyone exposing Jihadism in FB now is banned or blocked. Tarek Fatah, Robert Spencer, Pat Condell are all screwed by the left cabal.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
October 12, 2018
FWIW I do get sick of the political correctness epidemic on the liberal side. But the right is so much more insane right now I have stopped talking about it. I have nothing against right wing economics per se, though it’s not the one stop solution that Friedman & co believe it to be. The cultural right, though, is and will always be a no go zone for me.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 12, 2018
It is not PC alone. The left side creates a narrative that they know what is best for the country. Pat Condell’s video will explain how they created the narrative that staying in EU is best for England. In India their crimes includes brainwashing my dad’s generation that socialism is DA best. My dad, a huge fan of govt jobs, use to say with pride that back in 1960s, when Punjab National Bank was a private bank, their employees went on massive strike to get it nationalized. He also mentioned how TOI was at the forefront of covering it. Sniff Sniff. I smell idiot Girilal Jain.
By the time I left India, the banks were so bad that I can tell a ridiculous situation. When my employer opened a business account with a bank and told them to start processing our payroll, the bank person lamented “aree ab to hamara kaam bad gaya”. LOL. They were paid for that service by my employer and yet they did not want to work.
Cultural no go zone is for most sensible people. Who would want to be associated with white suprematists etc. But it is equally annoying to see an effort to brand George Zimmerman a white when he is a hispanic.
LikeLike
Rocky
October 12, 2018
Who is Aditi referring to here:
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 12, 2018
I don’t believe in ‘alternative facts’. The link you post is a right-wing group that will claim anything. Remember Pizzagate?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/08/25/does-huma-abedin-have-ties-to-the-muslim-brotherhood/?utm_term=.12acb1e6c7d4
Please do yourself a favour and read both sides before you attack my knowledge of current affairs. Or try some fact-checking yourself instead of believing everything you read. I do.
(And that goes for history as well.)
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 12, 2018
The left stubborn insistence to go for ad hominem attack is just for lack of defense. Sita Ram Goel is a RSS person. Arun Shourie is same. So anything they write about islamic history is worthless.
OK. Let us talk of Will Durant and his seminal book The Story of Civilization. A treatise which took him close to 20 yrs to write. In that this is what he described
“The Mohammedan Conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precarious thing, whose delicate complex of order and liberty, culture and peace may at any time be overthrown by barbarians invading from without or multiplying within.”
More here
But nothing matters to left. Dubious sources is what they can counter.
Shame on these morons if an American like Robert Spencer has mentioned in details with Jihad did in India while they happily deny it or bring false equivalence. It is called Ostrich head attitude. There are cruder ways to describe it in Hindi.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Tambi Dude
October 12, 2018
@rocky: I hope ARH is referring to Mani Ratnam 🙂
LikeLike
hari
October 12, 2018
Tambi dude for a lot of people Mughal period was the golden period in Indian history … because that is what is taught in Indian history books – Iltumish was a great administrator, Ghazni was a great strategist, Aurangzeb was an awesome human being he only razed thousands of temples he saved lakhs of them etc etc. It is a pity that kids of this generation needs to read such history. Who in TN know of Sambhaji or Bajirao (not the movie), but almost all kids would know Lodhi/Iltumish/Ghazni. And for British apologists I would suggest “Age of Darkness by Tharoor”
LikeLike
MANK
October 12, 2018
Rocky, guess Aditi is talking about Kangana ranaut 😀
or the holier than thou knowall Suhel Seth, who is outed as an abuser. There is a video that has gone viral where he is seen smacking the bottom of a girl at public stage
And I can’t believe Akshay, Farhan and farha didn’t know about sajids activities. I remember an interview with farha and Sajid, where Farha was joking about sajids habit of lifting up girls skirts during auditions
LikeLiked by 1 person
hari
October 12, 2018
Rocky most likely Acki and funnybones …
LikeLike
MANK
October 12, 2018
Tambi dude, man your hatred for Mani knows no bounds. I have started to suspect that there is something of a personal feud going on here😀
But I think Aditi is talking about Kangana. She was making some really idiotic statements yesterday about banning Hrithik and boycotting his films because he was having extra marital affairs. She wants that also to be covered under metoo
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anuja Chandramouli
October 12, 2018
TambiDude your reference to Huma Abedin is unacceptable dude. WTH. That’s just disgraceful.
Anu: Thanks for the link. Supriya made some brilliant points. “We will discover other kinds of creativity and warmth once we are free of the grinding patriarchy in which we now operate.” I couldn’t agree more.
However, the naming and shaming thing bypassing due process is still an extremely scary thing for me personally. It is character assassination in a sense without proof (in a lot of instances) and it is too reminiscent of what sicko men do when they slutshame women on toilet walls, etc. (Don’t get me wrong, I would never equate harassment victims with pervs and I truly admire the courage of women who come forward with their stories, I am just trying to explain my feelings about any type of social media lynching which sets too dark and dangerous a precedent). I understand the anger women feel because it is mine too, but I simply cannot condone savagery on such a scale. I reiterate, my earlier point. Nothing good can come off it simply because all that raging and mauling leads to more of the same. Why lower ourselves and stoop to employing tactics favored by the worst of the males out there? We are better than that and we CAN win battles without hitting below the belt.
I agree that in India (and elsewhere) justice is repeatedly denied because it is endlessly delayed, but we women are too resourceful to depend on legal recourse alone. We can help each other heal, move forward, and find more constructive ways to remodel society on our terms.
PS: Have you read this one? https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www.shethepeople.tv/top-stories/metoo-complicated-process-black-white-grey/amp
LikeLike
Arjun
October 12, 2018
@Tambi Dude: Will Durant is for sure NOT an authoritative figure on the history of India. He neither had access to, nor could understand primary sources. His sources were mostly British historians who had a clear agenda in drawing up such a portrait as he describes. Most of the assertions in that chapter you linked are baseless and have been thoroughly debunked since. Granted Romila Thapar and Irfan Habib can sometimes be biased, but wouldn’t you agree that Sitaram Goel is also biased in his own way? And come on, Arun Shourie is no historian at all. Romila Thapar rightly described his as a pamphleteer.
LikeLike
Apu
October 13, 2018
MANK: “Social media trials…what kind of screwed up logic is that?”
You have usually come across as very reasonable so let me explain. Ever since the #MeToo movement/campaign/whatever restarted a few weeks back, I have seen questions like these, and I was trying to answer them:
(1) What if someone uses this to ruin the life of an innocent man?
(2) Why are you going public now after 10/20/30 years?
(3) What about men who are being traumatized by their wives and girlfriends all the time, now we need to be scared of these allegations also. This will be like 498A being abused.
(4) How can you be sure?
(5) You just want fame
Tell me I am wrong, and I will be happy if I am, but even today, a woman, especially in India, claiming that she was sexually violated/tormented/abused/harassed immediately labels her as “unworthy”. Many of us (me included) do not speak up because our families will be defamed. You would not find, for e,.g. my #MeToo story on my Facebook profile (though it will be nowhere as sensational as those who out famous folks). Because it is not “fun”, not easy, and definitely traumatic to relieve it and say it out loud, knowing full well how that will be taken (those questions above for e.g.).
So yes, maybe there will be handful of carefully placed accusations to malign some, and that has always been there even before this movement – but that is why courts are there, though how many women, who are coming out about their childhood traumas through this platform, do you think will take legal recourse?
I hope I have been able to explain, else, I blame my emotions overtaking my vocabulary.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Tambi Dude
October 13, 2018
“I don’t believe in ‘alternative facts’. The link you post is a right-wing group that will claim anything. ”
I merely sent the first one I got. I also said “look it up”. Here is another one.
https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2016/03/29/hillary-clintons-muslim-brotherhood-problem/
You want more. Try spending 15 min in google.
You do realize the term “alternate-facts” has only as much credibility as the term “fake news” which Trump keeps mentioning. You should not find anything wrong in Trump dismissing WP and NYT as fake news and rubbing it on the face of liberals “remember they predicted 10% chance for me to win on Nov 8”. Unless you believe that your liberal dog is Tommy and right wing dog is just dog. To put it more crudely, you are proud of your belief system that your shit smells better than mine.
I have little doubt that Huma has a shady past with MB. I am fine if you believe otherwise. I am just you giving the reason why I did not support her. Had she been a male I would called him a bas**d. If someone is as smart as you, he/she would label me anti male.
“Remember Pizzagate?”
Only as much as I remember Nov 8 headlines or NYT’s support on WMD in Iraq in 2003 .
“Please do yourself a favour and read both sides before you attack my knowledge of current affairs. Or try some fact-checking yourself instead of believing everything you read. I do. (And that goes for history as well.)”
Yes you have monopoly over the truth. You are super smart.
One of the rare occasions I loved Joe Scarborough was this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY3nRgEZTm8. He was as direct as he can be in admitting that liberals behaved like arrogant sods with a patronizing attitude and got a nice egg on their face. Yeah pride goes before a fall.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 13, 2018
And one more. The liberal arrogance that what they think should matter on the poll day got a big slap when white woman pushed Trump to the white house. This despite his Access Hollywood tapes. In other words, white woman told liberals
“F U” and keep your self righteous vomiting session to yourself.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/10/white-women-donald-trump-victory
I guess next mantra of liberals is to declare democracy too precious to be handed over to common man 🙂
LikeLike
Swati
October 13, 2018
@Rocky. it could be Aamir khan (known for groping and kissing young ones) and/or Akshay-twinkie’s hubby! Could be Farhan Akhtar too 😉
LikeLike
Swati
October 13, 2018
Height of hypocrisy: Women who know that their husbands have sexually abused so many women are so shamelessly giving gyaan on #MeToo!!! It would help if they can keep their husbands under check—> This could be Twinkle.
LikeLike
Eswar
October 13, 2018
innocent until PROVEN guilty is for the judiciary. Does not work for the Individuals. Individuals would have made up their mind long before the Judiciary decides. And most times they stick to their own judgment even if the court decides differently.
Individuals are biased. Most times have a limited world view. And their view is often compartmentalised.
The rules and beliefs of one compartment does not mix with the other. Within each of this compartment their world view is coherent.
Compartments are useful. They limit our focus and allows us to enjoy simple pleasures. It allows to despise P.Rajagopal’s murder and yet appreciate his Saravana Bhavan. It makes possible to hate BCCI but also support their cricket team. This compartmentalisation is probably what allowed Chinmayee to continue to sing Vairamuthu’s lyrics. And will allow Mani Ratnam, Rahman and others work with Vairamuthu etc. without guilt. Like the way we would continue to work for our employers, even while we suspect they may not be ethical all the time. When compartmentalised, the art and the artist are different. The business and the owner are different. By compartmentalising we allow multiple inconsistent views to co-exist.
What happens when this separation melts. Life becomes more difficult. Making decisions becomes stressful. Questions arise. Questions like the ones that arose inside BR. Questions like should I stop watching Cricket? Should I stop eating in Saravana Bhavan? Should I stop listening to vairamuthu? Should I stop listening to Rahman and watch Mani’s movies because they are associated with Vairamuthu? Should I stop watching Shankar films because he associates with Madan Kharky who hasn’t spoken against his father yet ? The chain continues and we will probably end up not able to enjoy, appreciate anything around us. Does this mean we should keep our compartmental views intact?
The progressive life that we enjoy is a result of someone somewhere breaking these walls. The walls that separated white’s freedom from blacks. Men from women. Upper class and caste from lower. In-group from out-group. The expanding moral circle is probably an outcome of the slow merging of our compartmental views.
At the cost of making life a little more arduous, individuals should slowly start chipping away the compartments for a more inclusive and consistent world view. In that world view, the art and the artist, the man and his business, the corrupt and his team are all same. The art will get rejected along with the artist. If that means not listening to Vairamuthu forever so be it. One day the world might become a more better place even without that art. Until then the lyrics, the cricket and Saravana Bhavan will all be enjoyed and appreciated.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Anu Warrier
October 13, 2018
Anuja, thanks for that link. I agree with the second part of the article – accused men should be able to avail of legal recourse to clear their names. For the first part, where cheap remarks and raunchy texts are being collected under the #MeToo umbrella – I am conflicted. On the one hand, it dilutes the message. However, let’s be very clear about this – having those remarks come at you over and over again is diminishing of you as a person. You begin to feel like a piece of meat. As if the only part of you that is useful is this sexualised object.
So if harassment and assault both come under the same umbrella, it’s okay that they are called out. Who knows? It might stop the less-lecherous ones to take stock of their own behaviour. Most of the tweets and FB posts I have read haven’t asked for legal recourse for words. Mostly, they want to be reassured that it is harassment. Many of them just want an apology so they aren’t still doubting themselves.
It’s almost as if, with the posts about the messages, the women just want to have a safe space to say, ‘This guy is a creep – be warned, he will try his luck with these messages.’ A warning to other women to watch out and not be taken in by the mind games.
In the cases of serious assault, accounts have been corroborated by multiple women. Many of whom had gone to their department heads, their ICCs, their HR people – and been either turned away, or told to turn a blind eye. I honestly don’t see why their reputations don’t matter – they have been the ones who have lost the most – their careers, in some instances; their mental and emotional health, for sure; their reputations, for certain. If they haven’t been told they must have ‘asked for it’ or ‘enjoyed it’, they have been cast as troublemakers, their reputations soiled, their career paths sidelined.
Part of me says men have to go to courts to clear their name? Good. Let them learn how long it takes to get through our legal system. Let them see how their reputations take a hit. And mind you – it still doesn’t take that much of a hit as that of a woman. That’s the simple truth of the world we live in.
Legal recourse? That’s a laugh. Tarun Tejpal was outed 8 years ago. He is out on bail. Going about his life. His victim? Anyone know where she is? How she is living? I can assure you she hasn’t forgotten.
Pachauri. Multiple women. Multiple complaints. Multiple careers ruined. And the man? Went on to have an internationally-famed career.
MJ Akbar. Junior Minister of External Affairs. Has he been held to account?
Remember that kid int he US who dragged a drunk woman to behind the dumpster and assaulted her? He got away with three months! Three! And his father claimed that he was so hurt and guilty that he couldn’t even eat steak! That young woman? She will carry that trauma all her life.
I agree we need nuance. The pendulum will swing to one extreme before it swings back to an even keel. At this moment, however, we need the collective voice of women to be heard. And to call out – as Varun Grover did, with facts and dates, which I’m sure can be checked, and I applaud him for that move – false accusations that dilute the pain and trauma that other women have faced, are facing, and continue to face.
Yes, we need to be protective of each other; we need to lean on each other to heal and to move forward. In an ideal world, we could remodel society to treat us equally. But we don’t live in an ideal world. This anger that you see is the collective, desperate voice of a marginalised community – one that just wants to be heard.
Revolutions rose out of such anger. Whether it be women or the minority or the oppressed, there’s only so much that one can endure. One day, they will rise, demanding the justice that is theirs by right. Women are at that tipping point. I can’t say I’m sorry that they demand blood.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Anu Warrier
October 13, 2018
@Apu – (((Hugs))) I can understand why you remain silent. I can empathise with the hurt and the memories this whole movement must have triggered.
I know I will never tell my story either.
MeToo.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Uncouth Village Youth
October 13, 2018
@Anu – We all have a thick skin here. No need to be sorry.Thank God for affirming your belief in due process. If people like you lose respect for this, all hope is lost.
To all who think due process is not needed and that such national outrage is all about naming and shaming think again. Today this movement is driven by peaceful men and women. Tomorrow another movement will arise with sinister motives and hell bent on violence. Remember – the Rwandan genocide started with insinuations and public accusations. What happens when Hindutva people start naming and shaming beef eaters .There will be blood on the streets.
Thambi dude makes a lot of valid points. Liberal opposition to Trump has taken an alarming turn in the recent days. A lot of liberals are against the electoral college & the equal representation in the Senate. There seems to be a competition among liberals as to who hates Trump the most. A prime example is Jimmy Kimmel’s episode with Stormy Daniels – absolutely cringe worthy stuff. I reckon this is because everyone thought Trump will self destruct, a few months into the presidency. That hasn’t happened yet. This strategy is counter productive and rallies his base.Indian liberals too, do this to Modi. They try to pin all Govt. failures on Modi. Oppose them on policies and with data. It’s extremely difficult, but has to be done to ensure their defeat, because Trump & Modi thrive on liberal hate and vitriol.
LikeLike
Madan
October 13, 2018
Easwar: wonderful comment. I haven’t always agreed with what you say but I love that you take the time to expand and elucidate on all of your arguments. And I love that this space affords that luxury, unlike social media. Maybe that is what ultimately takes the sting out of the many heated debates here. Because it takes patience to read that much in the first place, ha ha.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
October 13, 2018
hari: I will believe this trope of “for a lot of people the Mughal period was golden” when I meet them. To date I haven’t met a single one. I wonder if a very Delhi phenomenon (Delhi has been under foreign rule from the Sultanate onwards) is being extrapolated for the entire nation. Yes I learnt about their contributions to art and architecture but NEVER NEVER regarded them as anything but invaders. Nor did anybody I studied with. And being there was no wiki in those days, this must have been because of rather than in spite of the ‘biased’/Nehruvian history books.
LikeLiked by 1 person
MANK
October 13, 2018
Apu, my screwed logic comment was about the insinuation that an innocent man wrongly accused of crime has less to loose than the victim of a crime. Losing his job is not the worst thing that can happen to him. People are driven to commit suicide , sometimes his entire family. i realize that what you are saying is coming from a personal space and so is mine , having been personally witness to what these sort of wrong accusations can do to an innocent man. Its in no way to discount what you or any of the women who are coming out are feeling and have been feeling for a very long time
Today this movement is driven by peaceful men and women. Tomorrow another movement will arise with sinister motives and hell bent on violence
i totally agree with this and that’s my concern too. As a citizen of this country i have been as disillusioned with judicial\ political system as anyone else, but i still believe in it, i still want to believe in it
LikeLiked by 2 people
Tambi Dude
October 13, 2018
@arjun: Whatever one may say about muslim rulers, they were great in one thing. Maintaining records of rule. Mughal emperors were very good in that and their court historians did a great job. With glee they wrote how they killed thousands of kaafirs or how the color of river turned red etc etc. Be it Arun Shourie or Robert Spencer, they all quoted the same source while describing their deeds. When Romilla Thapar called it as a dubious sources, Arun S mentioned that those were taken by the same source from where she wrote the history. She was speechless.
In recent years Irfan Habib started admitting it indirectly by claiming that court historians embellished it to please their emperor and hence we should take it with a handful of the needful. LOL.
And may I ask you to look at the islamic conquest every where to see how similar is the story of other civilizations too. READ.
What ISIS did in recent years is exactly same as what Caliphs and other marauders did in the name of jihad, down to the method employed. Be it burning alive of a jordanian pilot or the mass rape of Yazidi women.
Europe is learning this the hard way now. Some call it Karma (for all of their colonial crimes).
@anuja: “TambiDude your reference to Huma Abedin is unacceptable dude. WTH. That’s just disgraceful”
Are you talking about the usage of btch. I already explained above that had she been a male, I would have referred him as a bd because of the dislike for reasons given above. Why is everything seen thru the lens of misogyny. Geez.
I will be careful next time. Didn’t realize some people have skin thinner than a blade.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tambi Dude
October 13, 2018
@UVY: At the end Liberalism is just a belief system. No different than any other belief system. When religious belief system can be questioned (and rightfully) , why is Liberalism granted an exception? In many areas Liberalism is fine and I agree (with caveats) and in many I disagree.
Caveat:
Once in a party someone asked me whether I agree with same sex marriage. I told I have no problems with the legal status of same sex marriage same as man woman marriage. That is, 401K benefits, family insurance. However I like to play Cassandra and told them once we agree on same sex marriage, nothing stops anyone, 25 yrs from now , to allow marriage of a woman and a dog or something similar. Can someone technically give me a reason why same sex marriage can be called a marriage but not man-dog. If I am asked to vote on a referendum on same sex marriage, I will vote yes and but keep giving the dog warning.
To all who are not as old as me, remember one word: Hippies. They were the ultimate liberals during Vietnam war days.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 13, 2018
To be objective, Conservatism has as many flaws as liberalism, may be even more. best is to be open to both.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 13, 2018
My biggest contempt for liberals is because they see little beyond their charmed existence. They thinking goes like this “I have never been troubled by a pakistani or a bangladesi so they all must be good”. In other words these selfish gits
don’t care for anything unless they get hit personally. What sort of Indians are they if they don’t get disturbed by mass killing and ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits or what is happening in Assam now.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tambi Dude
October 13, 2018
Interesting tweet by Tavleen
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 13, 2018
I think I have spent way too much time in this blog. Should take a break now. Thanks all for engaging conversation.
LikeLike
jaga_jaga
October 13, 2018
@Thambi Dude – What’s wrong with a marriage between a dog and a woman?
LikeLike
nikkie1602
October 13, 2018
@Tambi dude… Same sex marriage is between two consenting adults of the same species. And also, homosexuality is not restricted to humans alone, a lot of other species practise it…bestiality on the other hand, well…so there is simply no comparison. I am sorry bu that is a ridiculous argument.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 13, 2018
Same sex marriage argument is also silly. Conservatives argue, same sex marriage can not produce children. Without that criteria you and I would not have been here. Marriage is not for sex alone, it is to procreate also. Of course having children is a choice, but overwhelming majority of married couples do have children.
Give them full legal benefit like married couples, why call it a marriage.
In any case you missed my point. That dog argument is only to point out how ridiculous things can become 25 yrs from now. Keep in mind 25 yrs ago it was equally ridiculous to suggest that a man will marry man.
You liberal ??, just curious.
BTW #METOO has now become Left vs Right in India. Poor Tavleen.
LikeLike
Rahul
October 13, 2018
Tambi Dude seems to be a liberal pretending to be a conservative just to make conservatives look bad. It shows when he says white supremacists are annoying. I can understand if someone has issues with white supremacy , but calling them annoying is a huge indictment. Annoying are Ekta Kapoor serials. If he can downgrade white supremacy to be mildly boring , then I can reconsider my opinion.
LikeLiked by 1 person
nikkie1602
October 13, 2018
By that logic…a couple who cannot procreate shouldn’t marry then? Like you say, procreation is a choice and even then you don’t need to be heterosexual to have children. There are other options.
The conservative line goes…we don’t like it so you can’t have it. Nobody is inviting them to their marriages, so I don’t see what the harm is.
I am not into labels but if I had to then it would have to be a liberal ambedkarite.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Rocky
October 13, 2018
This sums up the hypocrisy of Pritish Nandi ( and a few others )
Maya @Sharanyashettyy · Oct 12
Krushna Nandy to @IChitrangda :
“apna petticoat uthao aur ragdo aapne aap ko”?
How does this sound @PritishNandy
What do you have to say @PritishNandy ?
Rahul RoushanVerified account @rahulroushan
Rahul Roushan Retweeted Maya
Seriously? Why should he be responsible for his son’s behavior or character? It’s not like he’s following him on Twitter
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 13, 2018
Nikkie: I give up even though I can easily extend this tennis match by claiming that marriage itself is not necessary between man and woman to have children.
You win. What started off as a middle facetious statement by me regarding dog,
over a matter of little social importance is now maturing into a useless L vs R fight. Anyhow if I am asked to vote for same sex marriage: Y would be my choice. Now get off my back and get a life.
LikeLike
Gautham
October 13, 2018
@Eswar
I agree, as someone who struggles with compartmentalization, that decision-making becomes cumbersome in its absence. But I think you have got the causality in reverse as we aren’t tuned to truth but to fitness. i.e It is convenient for men who were sweeping this under the carpet to continue sweeping this under the carpet until, well, it becomes inconvenient. For compartmentalization to break down, a persistent stream of data that is contradictory to one’s construct of reality is needed. And that’s why I hope more men/women come forward.
@Mank
Agreed. I think the trade-offs are favorable when viewed from the societal-level. If individual cases are cherry-picked, then every attempt at social engineering can be argued against.
I have felt likewise and this gives me genuine reason to believe, to hope.
LikeLike
ramitbajaj01
October 13, 2018
“For the first time, researchers have used the DNA from two mouse mothers to create healthy pups, some of which matured and had their own offspring. The scientists also produced baby mice using the combined genetic material from two fathers, although those pups only lived for a couple of days.”
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-06999-6
LikeLiked by 1 person
nikkie1602
October 13, 2018
@tambi dude: This was going civil…there was absolutely no need to be rude.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Siva
October 14, 2018
Rahini: I wasn’t exactly giving you permission either. How can I give you permission when you already feel offended? My ‘by all means’ and ‘feel feel to’ fall more along the lines of — see if I care.
” when I felt your tone was condescending. ”
Funny you should say that. Condescending was the exact word I felt that your first reply to me reeked of.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 14, 2018
Anuja, MANK – about women who approached the problem through due process and what they got out of it –
This is about CP Surendran at DNA.
Others have written about their experiences with HR. Especially with Karthik Iyer at the Happy McGarry Bowen agency. And about how HR did nothing.
Another woman quit because the due process failed her; one instance of careers derailing because of this. I’m glad to state that the social media (NOT the due process) calling out has finally brought these men’s predatory careers to a pause (at least) for now.
http://bestmediainfo.com/2018/10/metoo-happy-mcgarrybowen-ceo-kartik-iyer-and-cco-pm-praveen-das-sent-on-leave-amid-harassment-allegations/
Re: Chetan Bhagat – and how people insisted that flirtatious texts on Whatsapp shouldn’t count under the MeToo movement. I said I thought it indicated a pattern – ‘pati toh pati, nahin toh raakhi. Well, what do you know?
https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/metoo-chetan-bhagat-suhel-seth-harassed-me-author-ira-trivedi/318258
And for those who think #MeToo is an urban, elite movement.
http://khabarlahariya.org/how-do-you-silence-a-ghost-youve-already-done-the-worst-you-could-metoo/
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tambi Dude
October 14, 2018
Rakesh: I do not believe in labeling. The definition of liberal and conservative is not something that holds across time. How many of us would believe today that during the American civil war it was the R party which wanted an end to slavery.
I am a paid subscriber to WP and NYT. That itself should tell you something.
What I can’t stand is virtue signaling. Liberals of late are into this trip of declaring any one who does not subscribe to their views as subhumans. We see it in USA. We see it in India. If the racism displayed in Foxnews is overt (just watch the day after 2012 election when Romney lost. Bill O Reilley/Laura Ingram were telling “this is not the american we grew up with”). Translation: it is becoming less whiter. They were blaming non whites for Romney’s loss. Now that was overt racism. Liberals are more subtle. Like trying to prove George Zimmerman as a white.
Yes it is a fact that white cops have bias against blacks. It is also a fact that black community has a serious crime problem. Talking about it is deemed racism and no one except Fox wants to talk about it.
I am utterly convinced that the creeping islamism in the west is mainly due to overt liberal support. They go completely silent on jihadism, enabling them.
The day after OBL was killed in Pak, while Fox was rightly talking about declaring Pak a terrorist state, MSNBC was discussing why they (muslims) hate us so much. and how OBL was a CIA creation. Why can’t they start a METOO movement in USA against forced FGM of muslim woman in USA (Detroit area is notorious), or honor killing. Does it every time has to be against white males. Not once do they take up issue of muslim woman suffering from the dogma of their society. They are not doing any favor to good muslims, overwhelming of american muslims are good folks by coming up with blatant lies after every jihad “this has nothing to do with islam”. This after the terrorists themselves quoting jihadi verses. One middle eastern was stopped in nick of time trying to blow up a building in NY. He openly declared he was doing it for Islam. Next day headlines was that the cops are still looking for the motive. How smart.
UK is going going gone. There PC disease has spread so much now that BBC does not even refer the Pakistani grooming gang as Pakistani. They are called asians. Look it up. Now it is given that when a crime is reported and the perp is referred as asian, it is a paki.
Why do you think India has changed so much? BJP won two seats in 1984. Yeah two. They were all dead in 80s. Cong and its paid liberal media just missed the bus that the middle class has access to more news outlet and they have been rendered irrelevant. This anger is what driving the Sagarika, Barkha and Rajdeep to nuts. Imagine ranting and raving every day, only to find it has little to no impact on election day. Cong lost so many states after 2014. Why am I talking about Cong? because for all of their professed love for liberalism, these media companies are mainly supporting Cong. Look at the way Rahul G is now projected as a PM material. Why not Mayawati? Why not one of Yadavs. Why not Kejriwal.
For democracy to be healthy, I want an alternative to BJP. India can not become one party country. That will be a disaster. But the current Cong is terrible. If Cong can get ride of Gandhi clan and reboot themselves, I am all for it. Until they and their supports can F themselves for all I care.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 14, 2018
One more. From my interaction with desi women at work and socially, they are terribly terribly anti Trump. You can’t reason anything. No nuance. Nothing. Even NYT is now warming up to the idea that Trump can do good for the country (today there was an article), but hell can freeze for ever, desi woman will not agree. Once a desi women at work told me in front of others “you really don’t like hillary”. I replied back “hard to respect someone whose political ambition is so unhinged that she is willing to put up with a horrible philandering husband”. She asked caustically “oh now it is her fault”. I saw no reason to be polite. I replied back “were u listening? Not leaving a philandering husband is not something I am going to view with sympathy”.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 14, 2018
Tavleen you rock.
https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/metoo-india-sexual-harassment-media-timesup-5400987/
LikeLiked by 1 person
Arjun
October 14, 2018
@Tambi dude: Ofcoursecourt historians did exaggerate the accounts of their masters’ exploits. Pakistani historians still teach that they won all the wars fought against India. Does that make it fact. Of course nuance is needed while interpreting historical records. One thing that emerges frommany accounts is that even while some muslimemperorsmay have been somewhat bigoted the common people largely lived in religious harmony. Remember when the godless Nadir Shah, incorrectly described as a Muslim,invaded Delhi, he slaughtered both Hindus and muslims indiscriminately. Not just in Delhi, but also in the very islamic countries of Iran, Iraq and Syria,Timur is regarded as a godless barbarian who made towers of human skulls and depopulated entire cities.Anyway, this debate is pointless in this thread and I don’t have the time now to dig out references and sources. Maybe some other time…
But I am completely with you on this offence taking industry. So now calling a woman one dislikes a bitch makes one misogynist? Am I allowed to call a man I dislike a motherfucker? Or is that also misogynist as the implied insult is to the woman? How about cocksucker..pretty sure some will call that out as homophobic. Retarded? That’s of course an insult to people with mental illness
LikeLike
Madan
October 14, 2018
Anu Warrier: The firm with which I did articleship (I am a chartered accountant) had ad/entertainment clients and I visited them a lot for audits. In the absence of actual instances, I would not want to indulge in speculative slander. BUT there are definitely names that I wouldn’t be surprised to hear about; I am waiting and watching. I remember back in the heady pre-2008 days, one firm had a billiards table inside office (yes) and the beer would flow like a river on Friday evenings. Tell me why wouldn’t things happen if you encourage such a loose culture in office. I was watching Big Short yesterday and in a broader sense, this is all the unravelling of that entire ethos of unshackled and wild consumerism where everything was in excess. Corporates have to take a hard look at their priorities. You can’t say you want the lion to hunt down competitors but also not prey on your own; have a strong ringmaster in that case. Otherwise you basically don’t care as long as the bottomline is good.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 14, 2018
@arjun: “Ofcourse court historians did exaggerate the accounts of their masters’ exploits. Pakistani historians still teach that they won all the wars fought against India. Does that make it fact.”
Pakistani historians teach concocted history for the benefit of propaganda to its citizens. It has a clear political agenda. Mughal court historians had no such agenda given the literacy rate at that time was in a pitiable single digits.
Secondly those logs were kept in Persian and other foreign languages and are still preserved in that language. For whose benefit was that written in an alien language unreadable by its almost everyone.
If everything is so questionable, then how did Romilla Thapar and Irfan Habib conclude that all was fine. Isn’t it delicious that their version is taken as gospel, but doubts are expressed against every other version , be it RSS sympathizers or Will Durrant. Very Very convenient. Keep in mind both RT and IH never ever disclosed the sources of their version of history.
I also asked you to compare Islamic conquest in other parts of the world with that of India. For example, Khilji burned Nalanda library which burned for 4 days. Very similar to destruction of Alexandria Library in Egypt by Muslim army of Amir Ibn. Shocking it was a muslim army. Should have been RSS.
In Kuwait they still proudly display the ‘invitation’ by the invading Caliph to convert to Islam. Invitation !!! It was a clear threat. Geez, those jokers think it was a peaceful invitation for a wedding and still display it as a tourist spot.
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Invitations_to_Islam_Prior_to_Violence
This blog is infested with uninformed jokers who think they are superior just because they think all humans are equally good and the world is one big happy family and every one should drink and dance kumbaya. No wonder Mark Zuckerburg takes such jokers for a ride in facebook.
LikeLike
MANK
October 14, 2018
Kamal and vishal on vairamuthu issue
LikeLiked by 1 person
Eswar
October 14, 2018
@Madan – Glad to hear that. thanks. 🙂. Yes I too like that this space provides that opportunity. Thanks to BR and the readers.
@Gautham – yes, that would help some people at least if not all.
LikeLike
jaga_jaga
October 14, 2018
@all here: I am not kidding here, nor am I (hopefully) being a nut-case.
I genuinely want to know what is wrong with bestiality – especially if there is consent between the two partners. Of course, a proper scientific protocol for finding if the non-human partner consents, is needed – so that abuse can we prevented!
But otherwise, what is wrong with that at all?? Why should we be so human-centric and speciesist?
LikeLike
Siva
October 14, 2018
Thank you for sharing the videos, MANK.
Kamal seems to be not fully aware of the veracity and power of #MeToo. Hence the lackluster answer. I wonder if it is because he is now a politician too. Had he still ONLY be an actor, would his response have been any different? May be not. May be he might still have sided with VM, at least in the beginning. At least until he fully understands how many women have actually come forward with the trauma inflicted on them by VM. Now that he is a politician, coupled with the fact that he has known and have worked with the veteran for decades, he might still not. I really wish for him to change his stance on this.
I could not even get past half of Vishal’s video. At some point after 6 minutes into the video, the “puratchi thalapathi” goes completely blank for a moment, unable to draw any more words to blabber. This guy’s response is totally complicit. And just wrong on so many levels. He is completely wrong when he says a strong woman would come forward then and there after the incident. He even goes to length of wanting the victim to let the ‘nadigar sangam’ know even before the incident happens. Idiot, idiot, idiot.
Even though I had the patience to watch only up to halfway through his blabbering, there was one thing I liked in the video. It was Keerthi’s reaction. It was like ‘Fuck You, Vishal. I mean, Fuck You’. She did not move a muscle even when he cited her as a strong woman on that stage. Well done. Very well done. Hopefully she did not support his idiocy through the rest of the video.
Geniuses like Vishal are why victims don’t come forward. It took Chinmayi two weeks of retweeting other victims’ heart breaking stories to muster up the courage to share her own VM story with the world. She knew how much she has to loose when she finally did so. And then this genius says she would have come forward when it happened if she were bold enough. Grrrr!!!! Adei …. 😡 😡
LikeLiked by 7 people
Arjun
October 14, 2018
@Tambi dude: Sorry, no time or interest to continue this discussion here. Some other place, some other time maybe. But to answer one question.
“Secondly those logs were kept in Persian and other foreign languages and are still preserved in that language. For whose benefit was that written in an alien language unreadable by its almost everyone.”
To advance a triumphalist narrative of course. Have you read ISIS’s own accounts of their conquests?They read exactly like these medieval accounts of Ferishta. Exaggerate achievements, downplay defeats. Or the Taliban. Checkout the Taliban’s official press releases, they are hilarious. “Today our brave mujahids killled several hundred kuffar infidel american invaders in the battle for Jalalabad……….”. US military press release “staff sergeant John Marshall was killed in an IED explosion on the outskirts of Jalalabad”.
LikeLike
Arjun
October 14, 2018
@jaga jaga: Fair question. While not my cup of tea, I’ve had friends who watched bestial porn and they all swear the women and the horses both enjoyed it. So why ban bestiality or man/woman- dog/horse etc marriage? As for consent nobody asks for the animal’s consent before eating or petting them, so why should it matter here. This is a fair question imo.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Srinivas R
October 14, 2018
Tamil cinema industry will close ranks and protect the predators. Kamal and Visual prove that. Vishal just gave me one more reason to skip his movies. Compare this to what Farah Khan and Farhan Akthar have tweeted about allegations against Sajid Khan. Tamil cinema is not at all a safe place for women.
LikeLiked by 2 people
MANK
October 14, 2018
Siva, look at the hypocrisy of these people. When AMMA was dilly dallying about the actress abduction issue and firing dileep, Kamal and nadigar sangham was quick to take a righteous stand and support the actress. But the moment a prominent one amongst themselves is accused, they start hiding behind fancy statements. It’s like this everywhere.
. Tamil cinema is not at all a safe place for women.
Huh you don’t say. People still have horror stories from the time when kodambakkam was the centre of south indian filmmaking. If all the yesteryears actresses were to come out naming names and we start boycotting them , then the 4 south indian film industries will disappear. Revathi and WCC members have threatened to do exactly that if AMMA continues to ignore the voices of it’s female members
LikeLiked by 6 people
sanjana
October 14, 2018
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/delhi-commission-for-women-launches-separate-email-id-to-report-cases-of-sexual-harassment-under-metoo-5401554/
LikeLiked by 3 people
Kay
October 14, 2018
https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/10/11/17933686/me-too-separating-artist-art-johnny-depp-woody-allen-louis-ck
LikeLike
Rahul
October 14, 2018
Tambi Dude, its hard for me to scroll through all your nonsense. Can you explain in a concise way why you are annoyed by white supremacists? The white supremacist dudes are taking care of big black dudes so that little brown Tambi dudes can live in peace , and still you are annoyed by them. Its because of people like you that Trump comes to power.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Tambi Dude
October 14, 2018
Rahul: Not going to help you there because there is no guarantee that you will still get it.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 14, 2018
@arjun: “To advance a triumphalist narrative of course. Have you read ISIS’s own accounts of their conquests?”
So exaggeration has a purpose, but whitewashing can not be due to any agenda !!!
Wow. I hope not every liberal is logic challenged.
LikeLike
Arjun
October 14, 2018
@Tambi dude- lol I am no liberal.
“Exaggeration has a purpose but whitewashing cannot be due to any agenda”
Now where did I ever say that. It’s funny how you go on about logic. Ponder the statement” A does not necessarily imply B”
LikeLike
Rahul
October 14, 2018
Hahaha so this liberal joker Tambi Dude who spends all his waking hours on this site was virtue signalling repeating some tired lines about White Supremacists , but when asked to back them up he runs with his liberal tail tucked between his legs !
LikeLiked by 1 person
e221
October 14, 2018
Control F over Comment Section.Typed “sree Reddy”..Zero Results..ZERO Results WoW!! Wait! Gender Bias? Maybe Bias within Gender? or Intellect BIAS? LOL..Wonder where some of them all these Months!!!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tambi Dude
October 14, 2018
@arjun: Because so far while you are trying to discredit history written by court historians , you did not write anything similar to question history written by RT and IH. If I made a mistake in that assumption, I am sorry.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 15, 2018
The first 8-9 minutes of this intervew. I liked what both Parineeti and Arjun Kapoor had to say on this topic.
I would also like Kangana to actually answer the questions asked of her instead of diverting everything back to Karan Johar. She really is coming across as a convenient feminist.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Tambi Dude
October 15, 2018
Note to self: Good that I did not reply. Woh Pappu hai.
LikeLike
Tina
October 15, 2018
Sooooo glad these women spoke up now! Atleast powerful idiots will now zip it up.
BUT. Yempa misbehave pannravangala kalyanathukku kupadringa? Both Chinmayi and her Mom have soo many tweets praising him winning awards and what not…
This is SO similar to what one of the commentors said on ‘drawing the line’. I can understand if she had to work and co-exist. But going out of the way to tweet and invite is really something I am unable to relate to – wish that hadn’t happened. It’s a signal illa – I can keep trying and these people will not just bear with me, but even shower me with laurels-ngra madhiri.
There are so many articles like on TNM that justify why she HAD to invite this person. Here I am, thinking to myself, what would have happened if she wouldn’t have invited this person? Idhu enna oscar virudu vazhangum vizhava?
Not blaming her…but it’s scary how literally ‘brain-numbing’ these things turn out to be. Which leaves me wondering – I am so convinced there are so many more powerful predators out there not outed. And because they have not been outed and because you can see what chinmayi is now up against, these predators will continue getting laurels and invitations.
And I genuinely hope that this movement has atleast given more courage to women and instilled fear in harassers. Maybe in time, things will fall in to place.
LikeLike
e221
October 15, 2018
@Tina..”And I genuinely hope that this movement has at least given more courage to women and instilled fear in harassers.”.Harrasers, in general, are not Kanna or Munna or Geetha.
Most of the cases, they are not just powerful in their own terms but “Extremely Smart people and Very good problem solvers”. So real harassers will see all this as another problem to resolve and I fear they will come with extremely smart solutions to this. So unless we have extremely well-written laws that help real Victims and an “ENVIRONMENT” where the Victims could come out bravely and report to bring them in front of the law, this will continue. So until then
“Thirudanai Paathu thirundha vitaal Thiruttai olika mudiyadhu”
LikeLike
Tina
October 15, 2018
@e221: Yes, victims need to be given a space where they can feel ‘secure’ to come out with these things. Absolutely. And I agree to that security stems from having a solid judicial system to fall back on.
But if you think about it, who would live in more fear today – a famous guy or a no name munna?No name munna’s naming and shaming languishes on a twitter handle. But the famous guy’s episode is splattered everywhere, debated, etc.
While it’s the same crime, the famous guys suffers more, no? Like more famous and powerful, steeper the ‘veezhchi’. And I also believe it is the uncovering of known names that will lead to greater awareness. Yet this is the hardest piece to crack. Which is why I thank Chinmayi for what she has done today – it is sad that more women are not coming out to blame more perpetrators.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 15, 2018
@Tina – re: the famous guy suffers more. Yes, but he’s also more powerful and uses subtler forms of harassment. They didn’t reach there by being outwardly nasty.
Also, that’s the price of fame. Many a thing that you would condone in your next door neighbour, say, would be a subject of many a discussion if a celebrity did it.
For Chinmayi – unfortunately, that word you used – mindnumbing – is very apt here. After sometime, it is a survival tactic. You will be seen as insulting ‘a great man’ if you don’t invite him. It will be seen as a deliberate insult; and reams of print and hours of talk time will be spent speculating why you didn’t invite an industry senior – especially when you have worked closely with him.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 15, 2018
@Madan, I missed your comment. Yes, I know the culture whereof you speak. I have seen it, been repulsed by it, and have managed to safely extricate myself from it, thanks to a supportive female boss. The newsroom in those days was certainly no different, especially when we women had to work really, really late.
I remember, those days of ‘cut-and-paste’, the earliest I left the office was at 8. Most days, I would catch the last local from Churchgate and travel in the second-class with the machiwaalis – no one dared mess with them!
LikeLiked by 2 people
Anu Warrier
October 15, 2018
In case Anusha and MANK (or anyone else still interested) are still reading:
(This deals with your due process concerns.)
https://www.telegraphindia.com/opinion/the-metoo-reckoning/cid/1671772
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 15, 2018
@anu: Are you telling in Mumbai women were harassed in public (as in local trains you mentioned above). I always thought Mumbai was safe for women returning late from work, unlike wretched Delhi.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 15, 2018
@Tambi – Mumbai was definitely much safer then, and I have never been harassed on the streets when I walked home from the station. The train ride back – mostly, I was catching the 1 a.m. local (Churchgate – Borivali since I lived in Vile Parle) and it would have been idiotic of me to get into a deserted 1st class ladies compartment. So I would travel by the second-class general compartment and the machiwalis would be returning at the same time. I got to know them pretty well. It was just a precautionary measure.
I would never have been able to work in Delhi at that time; I heard horror stories from the women colleagues in the Delhi bureau.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tambi Dude
October 15, 2018
Delhi is the only city where Govt bus officials would harass. In 1988 there was a case of a Delhi Univ track and field champ (woman) kicking the driver/conductor and jumping off a running bus to save herself. I was working in Calcutta in those days and I heard snide remarks from Bongs about “your” city Delhi. There was something in that masculine glorifying north Indian culture which was so anti woman. Once at a customer site (I am in IT) I was having social conversation with one of the employees of the customer and asked whether he has girl child. He made a disgusting face and told “nahi nahi nahi mera ek ladka hai”. He was the same guy who told me as a matter of fact, after watching the hindi version of Mouna Ragam, “kya story hai, if I were the hero I would have slapped her and brought her to senses”. We saw that in Hum Dil De Chuke Sanam too where Ajay Devgan’s dad tells him “kya rajput ho, aurat ko kabee nahi kar sekte”. India Today reported that there were loud whistles and cat calls in theaters in BIMARU states.
Trivia: In the original story of Sholay, Jai ends up marrying Radha. When the near final version was shown to the industry experts, all of them warned Sippy that showing a widow getting married will guarantee the fate of the movie in the BIMARU states. Between 1975 and 2018 I hope we have progressed a lot.
METOO is an elitist movement only. Real metoo is required in semi urban and rural areas where women still face unspeakable harassement.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 15, 2018
METOO is an elitist movement only.
If the elites are speaking up, it’s because they have a platform. They are striking a blow for every woman – rural, urban, poor, elite, oppressed, marginalised, educated, illiterate and everything in between.
Or do you think that because those semi-urban and rural women do not or cannot speak up, no one should? Or that because these woman come frome elite, urban, educated backgrounds, their harassment is less real? Or non-existent?
Power imbalances are definitely skewed in the areas you speak of. And those women need to be heard and supported – no argument there. No one – regardless of gender – should have to face harassment.
But the movement has to start somewhere, and it is good that women who have a platform to speak up, are doing so. It will percolate; it has to.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Apu
October 15, 2018
Anu: Thanks for the due process links. And the hugs, to you too. Which sort of highlights the point I was trying to make.
Tavleen Singh: Ugh, where do I start? First she tries to undermine the MeToo movement because it does not include horrific incidents that happen to lesser privileged women. (Counterpoint: Let us not compare trauma, and MeToo does not exclude those stories. But we all know that not all women in India have access to social media. Just because a movement cannot include everyone does not mean it should not exist or it is a failure. It is a movement, not a statistical study)
Second: She is shaming victims now. All because she has friends who are now exposed.
Tina: But if you think about it, who would live in more fear today – a famous guy or a no name munna?
This point and your previous points are valid, but the abusers are now so powerful that they will blow it off as “price of fame ha ha, everyone throwing themselves at me” or get an army of lawyers to fight for them. For e.g. look at M J Akbar employing these lawyers. No one should be having any doubts that he is really really guilty, but does it matter? I am not sure any more. We tend to see the world through out own lens, i.e. I think an allegation like this should seriously affect the accused, but seems like it does not. 😦 :(. There seems to be open secret in industries and the abusers have only gone from strength to strength.
I have not read the Chinmayi incident in its entirety but many abusers use mind games (for lack of a better word). They first understand and choose victims who would either not protest, or whose allegations can be easily undermined. And the first abuse is often use as a blackmail for later abuses. It makes the victim already feel so bad about themselves that they do not refuse. Please note: this is not only true of sexual but any kind of abuse. “Why did he/she take it for so long?” is thus the wrong question in many cases.
The right question is still: “Why did the abuser do it? How could the abuser get away with it? What can we do now?”
Thambi Dude: “METOO is an elitist movement only. Real metoo is required in semi urban and rural areas where women still face unspeakable harassment.”
Maybe you have not been reading the stories. There are lots and lots of semi-urban women who now have access to social media who are telling their stories. Please do not compare trauma and harassment. It will be on the same lines as “Jawans are dying at the border and you complain about demonetization”
— This is not part of MeToo posts, BR feel free to moderate this out ——-
Thambi Dude: Is there any thread that you do not hijack nowadays with your tired liberal vs conservative argument? I read it in Manmarziyaan thread and this one. I am not even sure what you are arguing for any more – that Trump is a great President? Or Liberals are stupid? Or the fact that you have only one burning ambition in life and that is too see conservatism rule everywhere?
Rahul: Tambi Dude, its hard for me to scroll through all your nonsense. Can you explain in a concise way why you are annoyed by white supremacists?
Most Indian conservatives are annoyed by White supremacists who try to keep brown dudes out of US but feel that they (conservatives) should take over India and keep the lower castes and women subjugated (as directed by holy texts or such like) and the ahem…other religions out of India. Nothing new.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Siva
October 16, 2018
Tina:
In case you did not have a chance to see these from Chinmayi, these tweets answer few of your questions.
On why she appreciated his Padma award
On why she has so many tweets that announces him as poet for a new song
On how the “dubbing artistes union”, which she is a member of, bans members from talking to Media or Police
On mentioning VM’s name in new song release tweets and on congratulating him for the Padma award
Finally, on why she invited VM to her wedding (because her husband did not know about VM’s harassment at the time)
Her husband corroborates her claim, and also adds that “Kabilan Vairamuthu” is a friend and a GEM of a person and they wanted him to attend the wedding.
One of her first tweets after she shared her own story about VM
LikeLiked by 1 person
Sifter
October 16, 2018
Appreciate all the Passionate, articulate Women Warriors and the Men who relentlessly fight against the many issues that work against women.
To those that bring up ‘false allegations’ and not unduly bothered with most of the ‘true allegations,’ I want to say this: To every ‘Disclosure’ you bring up, there is a multitude of ‘The Accused’ that happens in real life and with #me too.
As said by a few women here already, I too have multiple #me too incidents to tell, but will not be able to. The women that have shared their experiences publicly have shown immense courage knowing that they will be attached on all fronts by many men and women and then be left to bleed alone. But it does bring with it a dawn of hope that many women and men have now started to show their support with the women who have stood up to their alleged harassers.
LikeLiked by 3 people
sanjay2706
October 16, 2018
“Innocent until proven guilty” should be for both parties. Steps that any Industry should take on such issues
There should not be any hiring/firing decision taken based on these allegations on both parties. Only if the powerless, in this case women who are intimidated by powerful men, feel safe and not be worried about consequences, they would come out and lodge complaints immediately.
LikeLike
e221
October 16, 2018
Completely one-sided Comments. I mean anyone can come up with answers…Why? Why? Why? But the question is not really why Chinmayi invited VM for marriage. That’s ok. But one could clearly see what happened at the marriage event
From 1:12..No one is going to ask why you did not fell in Vairamuthus Feet. Ok Compulsion from hubby. Accepted..What kind of Mother will stand beside a man who called upon her daughter? Oh does the entire world is going to ask “Oh Chinmayis Mother did not smile at VM..So I have to ask my mom to do it?” Who is going to question her?
Will the world question that too? Come on!!!!
Clearly, Something is way off.
No mother.i mean no mother will smile and laugh at a person who harassed her daughter. I mean the slightest boycott? One could come up with an explanation for this too. But this clearly does not convince me that Chinmayi tells the truth.
This does not make me or anyone against #metoo. It’s just that I don’t believe it and I have every right to do so. But as I said, when Sree Reddy was complaining where did everyone go? Where was Actor Siddharth? He is clearly a joke.
Power. What kind of power are we talking about here? Political. I am not going to elaborate. The political party that VM is associated is powerless for almost a decade. So anything against him is going to be a big ammunition for the party against him.
Again if I do not believe Chinmayi Does not make me that I am against #metoo. It’s just that something is very very Fishy
LikeLike
Srinivas R
October 16, 2018
e221 – what is your opinion on other accusations against VM. Others have also pointed out that it is bewildering as to why she had to invite VM. From other accounts of harassment, there seems to be a pattern to VM. Do you doubt them as well?
https://scroll.in/article/898133/i-too-was-pursued-by-vairamuthu-i-stand-by-chinmayi-sripaada-musician-sindhuja-rajaram
LikeLike
Anuja Chandramouli
October 16, 2018
Apu: “Most Indian conservatives are annoyed by White supremacists who try to keep brown dudes out of US but feel that they (conservatives) should take over India and keep the lower castes and women subjugated (as directed by holy texts or such like) and the ahem…other religions out of India. Nothing new.”
That is so spot on! ROFL.
Anu Warrior and the others: Thanks for the articles you posted. Very interesting and often valid perspectives which is a blessed relief from the caterwauling on Twitter. The thing though for me is with these issues more often than not, I tend to sit on the fence became I find there is the good, bad and ugly evenly distributed on both sides with hardly any exceptions. It is probably a hangover from my days on the debate team when we used to play ‘turncoat’ and present our arguments for both sides. Perched on the fence, you find nothing is as cut and dried as the hardliners and extremists would have you believe.
#MeToo is no exception. Even if you were inclined to leave due process aside with the arguments being that the system is weighted in favour of the male of the species, justice delayed is justice denied etc there are other considerations as well. What if this monster we want to create slips it’s chain and runs amok? If a precedent is set for naming, shaming and mob justice why would it remain within the confines of the #MeToo movement? Everybody with a grudge or penchant for evil just has to send a WhatsApp forward accusing someone of being the Mastermind behind a pedophile ring, kidnapper or murderer, heck even beef eater and then since we are insisting that ‘victims’ (never mind that it is often hard to figure out who the real victim is) should be believed not questioned perhaps we will all be prowling the streets looking for ‘perpetrators’ we can tear to pieces!! This is what I am afraid we will devolve into of we charge down this road pumped up with self – righteousness and high minded outrage.
I have also been noticing that women who raise objections or question somebody’s #MeToo story are being excoriated as gender traitors / ‘enablers’ or being attacked outright (of course the same thing happens to those who come out with their stories and they risk being slut shamed and viciously trolled). This is bloody ridiculous. Why are we so unable to accept another’s POV just because it is so at odds with ours? (I am being a hypocrite here because everytime BR compiles a list with his fave MR films or SLB’s mastubatory efforts, it takes a lot of restraint not to dash off an expetive laden comment) Seriously though, we should make it mandatory to listen to each other just to understand where our opponents are coming from.
Speaking of nuance, I already mentioned that #MeToo is too wide an umbrella and it bothers me that those who saw fit to trade favors, sexual or otherwise for professional advancement which in my book counts as consent are now crying foul. It is exactly what pissed me off about Asia Argento with regard to her relationship with Harvey Weinstein (who is a big time creep but her actions were unconscionable too) and I was not remotely surprised when she was accused off predatory behavior with a minor. I don’t have issues with the choices people make but when it creates a toxic work environment where professional merits take second place given that sex and other benefits have been placed on the table it does become a problem especially since not everyone fancies being faced with such a choice or being denied opportunities. To tackle this sort of thing which is a festering canker across all stratas of society be it in the professional or personal spheres we need to focus on moral culpability and that seldom has anything at all to do with gender.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 16, 2018
Due process at the time failed all these women and all the women who have thus far spoken out. Tanushree Dutta should know – the police even refused to file a case then.
Now, all these women are going through due process after the initial social media declarations. Let’s see if due process helps them this time. I have no hopes.
MJ Akbar is using the full machinery available at his disposal to array 97 lawyers against one of the women journalists who spoke against him. Now, others are coming forward with their names and their stories.
https://scroll.in/article/898415/my-wife-faces-a-union-minister-his-97-lawyers-it-takes-special-courage-to-do-that
https://www.thequint.com/voices/blogs/entrepreneur-swati-gautam-mj-akbar-sexual-harasssment
https://www.thequint.com/news/india/metoo-survivors-react-to-mj-akbar-statement
And Ghazala Wahab’s rebuttal:
https://www.thewire.in/women/me-too-india-mj-akbar-ghazala-wahab
I wait and watch.
LikeLiked by 1 person
sanjana
October 16, 2018
A pattern is emerging. Accuse the fathers, brothers and male relatives of Metoo signatories or supporters.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rocky
October 16, 2018
Majority of NDTV Journos key parents were well connected, so they were made journalists, otherwise this level of moorkhta :
No, MJ Akbar has not hired 97 lawyers to fight defamation case against journalist who accused him of sexual harassment
https://www.opindia.com/2018/10/no-mj-akbar-has-not-hired-97-lawyers-to-fight-defamation-case-against-journalist-who-accused-him-of-sexual-harassment/
LikeLike
Aadhy
October 16, 2018
Happy to know there is one more sane voice in the Tamil film industry. Listen to him talking about #Metoo from 6:35. He also makes one striking point about the ‘consent’ argument in casting couch – “Consent could only exist between equals, not when one person wields (in a career-influencing way) a lot of power over the other. That is coercion.”. Vetrimaran’s clear take makes the others in the industry (Kamal, Vishal, Khushbu, Barathiraja etc.) come across as a bunch of wimpy hypocrites.
LikeLiked by 9 people
Srinivas R
October 16, 2018
By far the only sensible comment on #MeToo from a Tamil film personality. Thanks for sharing Aadhy.
LikeLike
Rocky
October 16, 2018
Jatin Das, Father of Nandita Das-
LikeLike
Rocky
October 16, 2018
LikeLike
Rocky
October 16, 2018
LMAO!!!
andar kya hai, bahar kya hai, yeh sab kuch pehchantee hai , yeh public hai yeh sab jaanti hai !!
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hillary-clinton-cbs-sunday-morning-bill-should-absolutely-not-have-resigned-over-lewinsky-scandal/
“In retrospect, do you think Bill should’ve resigned in the wake of the Monica Lewinsky scandal?” correspondent Tony Dokoupil asked.
“Absolutely not,” Clinton said.
“It wasn’t an abuse of power?”
“No. No.”
There are people who look at the incidents of the 90s and they say, ‘A president of the United States cannot have a consensual relationship with an intern; the power imbalance is too great.'”
“… who was an adult,” Hillary said.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 16, 2018
Thanks for the link, Aadhy. What a sensible voice. I wish this could be more widely disseminated.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 16, 2018
Rocky, let’s be very clear – I think Bill Clinton was a sleaze ball however much I liked him as president. But the difference in the Lewinsky case is that she has never accused him of harassment. She has consistently said – even now says – that it was consensual.
Many people may not know this but Lewinsky had been transferred out from the White House in the initial stages of the affair – to a comparable job elsewhere. (In other words, her career was not threatened.) She came back to the White House on a transfer request that she put in.
I may not approve of her actions (while absolutely condemning his) but I have to give it to the woman – she stood by them and did not turn them into an ‘I’m an innocent who was exploited.’
LikeLiked by 2 people
Anu Warrier
October 16, 2018
@Anuja, let’s get one thing very clear. What’s happening on Twitter just now is no Kangaroo court. The perpetrators are getting named and shamed, alright, but the only ones who have stepped down or have been phased out have been men against whom the allegations have been proven.
Tanmay Bhatt for his inaction (and his horrendous tweets about rape and women), Vikas Bahl for pretty much proven – as in the complaint was registered, they knew about it, and did nothing about it; the two journalists who resigned; the head honcho of YRF after an internal investigation.
Due process is being followed for punishment.
This, despite the painting of many men (and a few women) is not ‘vengeful women on a warpath’. These are women who have lost much, who are in danger of losing much, who are coming out and after the movement began on social media are now resorting to the same due process that failed them previously to give them justice now. Not one of them have asked for monetary restitution – they want to be heard, they want the crimes against them acknowledged, they want the justice of knowing that they were right and not deluded to think that they were being harassed.
I would suggest that to say that in cases of kidnappers/murderers or beef-eaters, this sort of punishment will become the norm and Kangaroo courts will run amuck, is a completely different thing altogether. Groups of women aren’t banding and running wild in the streets hoping to lynch an alleged perpetrator.
To suggest that women don’t voice their anger and frustration on social media at a system designed to keep them quiet just because men may riot in other cases is yet another blow to the cause of justice. To say, we should bond together and heal reminds me of all the times I was asked to keep quiet because I was a girl. Ladki hoke aisa kaam karega? Ladki hoke ladko ka munh lagega? Ignore pannunga. Mindandu nadannal pore? The languages may be different, but the implied rebuke was why was I ‘provoking’ them? Why don’t I keep quiet? Like girls should. Just go bond with other women who have also been in the same place and heal, no?
LikeLiked by 2 people
Rocky
October 16, 2018
AW, I agree re. Monica . In fact I think it was Linda Trip who broke Monica’s trust to get to the President. ( Kinda like what happened in Judge Kavanaugh ‘s case where someone in Senator Feinstein’s staff l broke the trust .History has a way of repeating itself. )
I liked Bill Clinton a lot and watched the impeachment proceedings live rooting for him. However Hillary is just so fake and a hypocrite . She feels as entitled as Rahul Gandhi.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 16, 2018
Jatin Das?! Jesus Christ!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rocky
October 16, 2018
But MJ is denying as well … # kuch bhee !!
Nandita Das
4 mins ·
As a strong supporter of the #MeToo movement, I want to reiterate that I will continue to add my voice to it, despite the disturbing allegations made against my father, which he has categorically denied. I have maintained from the very start that this is the time we all need to listen, so that women (and men) feel safe to speak up. At the same time, it is also important to be sure about allegations so as not to dilute the movement.
I am touched by the number of people – friends and strangers – who are concerned and are trusting my integrity. I do believe truth will prevail. And that is all I have to say on this matter.
LikeLike
e221
October 16, 2018
@Srinivas Did she published her Call log/Statement supporting the argument. if not then why not?
‘Naming and Shaming’ Can’t Change the System: Justice Sujata Manohar on #MeToo
https://thewire.in/law/justice-sujata-manohar-metoo-india-vishakha-guidelines
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 16, 2018
Due process: Ask Rupan Deol Bajaj. People my age will remember this case.
https://thewire.in/women/rupan-deol-bajaj-kps-gill-case-me-too
Ask her how due process served her.
Heck, ask Bhanwari Devi whose gang rape led to the law that defines sexual harassment. 26 years later, she’s still waiting for justice.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 16, 2018
Sorry to inundate this thread with posts but this is so British, so hilarious and so, so relevant and on point.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tambi Dude
October 17, 2018
Apu: “Most Indian conservatives are annoyed by White supremacists who try to keep brown dudes out of US but feel that they (conservatives) should take over India and keep the lower castes and women subjugated (as directed by holy texts or such like) and the ahem…other religions out of India. Nothing new.”
That is so spot on! ROFL.
Anuja: It is called horses for the courses. India is not yet developed like US to have similar kind of liberalism. We will get there, but not now.
The west pontificates about Chinese govt snooping in private conversation of its citizens. Back in 2012 when there were riots in UK, British Govt was pressurizing Blackberry to release the chat conversation in BBM because they were encrypted.
They wanted to find out who was involved in riots.
Few years back FBI wanted the same with Apple after the San Branadino (sp?) shooting by a Pakistani couple.
China must be thinking “hmm, west understood it now”.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 17, 2018
Just to clarify: My above comment was about Indians in US wanting liberals (Dem) in US and conservatives (BJP) back in India and not about the subjugation.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 17, 2018
Apu: “Most Indian conservatives are annoyed by White supremacists who try to keep brown dudes out of US but feel that they (conservatives) should take over India and keep the lower castes and women subjugated (as directed by holy texts or such like) and the ahem…other religions out of India. Nothing new.”
There is not much honesty in the above sentence. Caste and woman subjugation has been happening in India since 1947, even when Cong (non conservative ) was ruling. In states like Bihar and UP, even with non conservative govt like BSP, SP, crimes against lower caste and women has been on an alarming scale.
As for mistreatment of other religions, what does it tell about non BJP govt if during their long rule muslims stayed at the lowest strata of society and with many riots happening (Cong record is terrible on that count).
LikeLike
sai16vicky
October 17, 2018
This comment is more of a wondering aloud (more as an extension of what BR started this post with).
I am all in for people coming out in the open and sharing their traumatic experiences. If social media is a viable medium of expression, then that be it. But, here’s a problem. Let’s take the one of the most trending accusations (just as an example) — Chinmayi vs Vairamuthu. Now, this might or might not go to the court and it is quite likely that we might never know the truth. I have three sets of questions:
In case we later come to know that Vairamuthu is say innocent, what would be our immediate reaction? Would we empathize with him? Would we accuse the judicial system of bias (like the talk around 2G)? Would we still look for holes in the case and still hold him (at least in our heads) as a harasser?
What about Chinmayi? What would happen to the credibility of hers and others who have accused Vairamuthu of harassment? She is seen as one of the torchbearers of #MeToo in TFM and what would be the overall credibility of the movement itself? Would she face a defamation suit like Priya Ramani?
And finally:
What about the commenters/media posts on these tweets? People have hardly been civil about this whole thing. There’s a LOT of kindergarden level name-calling and shaming of the celebrities at the receiving end of these accusations, sometimes by the accusers themselves*. Shouldn’t these uncivil (and mostly baseless) remarks be called out and punished as well?
*One natural question is if I were a victim of harassment, would I not swear against my harasser? I would but definitely not in public and of course not the internet. I understand that social media is historically a very angry place but why not some civility when the truth is not clear at all.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 17, 2018
@anu: That was classic british humor.
I am big fan of Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister. In one episode Sir Humphery and PM have a problem at hand. A British woman working as a teacher in a middle eastern country was caught smuggling a bottle of wine and sentenced to 40 lashes. They need to get her out of trouble.
Sir Humphery: PM, do you know the difference between islam and west.
PM: No I don’t.
SH: In Islam you get stoned for committing adultery, in west you commit adultery after getting stoned.
HA HA.
Today there is no way BBC will allow this for fear of branded Islamophobic, even though the above humor is as much against the west as it is against islam.
LikeLike
Siva
October 17, 2018
e221: Justice Sujata Manohar’s statement, viz. “naming and shaming can’t change the system” is completely on a judicial review standpoint.
The social media naming and shaming, in most cases, is on a victim’s standpoint. Not all ‘naming’ has the sole motive of continuing it further in a court of law.
They do it mainly,
1) So that they could finally get some sort of “closure” for themselves — It is a medium to vent all the bottled up emotion & trauma, in some cases for a very very long time.
2) So that the perpetrator’s peers will know — Most of these perpetrators come across as invincible, honest, upright, just, and righteous people standing tall on a pedestal of moral high ground in their professional circles. The victims merely want their peers to know that is not the case.
3) So that other women won’t fall for the same predator — Now all other women who have to deal with the accused on a daily basis will know to stay on high alert at all times.
4) So that the predator will most likely not strike again — After the naming, shaming, denials, court procedures (if any; if at all) and whatnot, the predator will now think a 1000 times even before attempting to offend again.
Meaning,
#MeToo is not about proving it in or even taking it to — a court of law. Because more often than not, there is no proof or evidence or witness. It is more than that.
#MeToo is about the victim — moving on …. or at the least attempting to move on.
LikeLiked by 3 people
tonks
October 17, 2018
Firstly I haven’t gone through the entire comment thread under this post so apologies if this thought has been expressed here before. Two things I found disturbing about #metoo :
Human beings are sexual animals, and marriage is an artificial social construct. It is natural to feel attraction and desire and express it in the workplace. Neither is it against the law nor is it unnatural. Males of the species are probably genetically and culturally wired to be the ones to initiate courting behaviour and express sexual or romantic interest first. They should not be penalised for this. All they need to be taught/ or become aware of is the importance of reciprocity, and to learn to back off when the other person is unwilling. And for this to be evident, ladies have to be taught the importance of telling “No”, in an unambiguous manner.
This has been very well articulated in this article by Vaishna Roy :
https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/slow-burn-to-rage/article25241763.ece
LikeLiked by 4 people
tonks
October 17, 2018
This is an excerpt from this piece where an author calls out Chetan Bhagats behaviour :
https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/metoo-chetan-bhagat-suhel-seth-harassed-me-author-ira-trivedi/318258
Back then, Chetan was the star of the literary world and I felt both nervous and gleeful to be sharing the stage with him. During the panel, he asked me something to the effect “what do you do when men hit on you at book launches?” I replied – something along the lines of “I tell him that if he buys a 100 books I will kiss him, and if he buys all my books I will marry him.” I was 22 and I thought that I had just been very clever and sassy. I had not, however, given anyone permission or consent.
A few weeks later, he invited me to tea at the India International Centre, in my mind a perfectly innocuous place for two authors to meet. He asked me to come to his room but I suggested we meet in the tea-room instead. After our tea, he asked me to come up to his room on the pretext of giving me a signed copy of his book. As soon as I entered his room, he made a pass at me: I ducked as he tried to plant a kiss on my lips and then I laughed, because I didn’t know what else to do, or how to respond. I asked him what in the world he was trying to do and he told me coyly, without hesitation and almost with an air of entitlement, that he had bought a hundred copies of my books and donated them to a library in Pune, so a kiss was his prerogative. I ignored his comment and pretended to be amused though in reality I was shaken. This was a married man with children, whose family I had hung out with at the literature festival. This was uncalled for and shocking behaviour
While there is no arguing that this is inappropriate behaviour in a married man, I fail to see from her account, how this young woman let him know in clear and unambiguous terms that his advances were unwelcome.
LikeLike
e221
October 17, 2018
@Shiva..As I mentioned previously, Trust me, Harassers, in general, are smart people, very very mighty smart. So they will find a way. I am not saying that every victim should remain silent but #metoo as a movement will wither away soon because to last long it should have a strong judicial support. It cannot stand alone by itself in its current form.
Otherwise, #Metoo will be more like a Goodnight Mat. Once a mosquito is used to it it’s no longer effective so do the harassers. Media needs food. Its hungry for news. Once all this hype is done and people move on to the next big news, #metoo will suffer and so does the victims. So it’s really a long-term notion that new laws need to be passed so that Victims have more powers.
Also the fundamental assumption, in this case, is ALL accusers tell the truth. But don’t you think it can be used as an effective weapon against innocent too? Are you saying all humans are Truth speakers? (man or woman)..What’s the fundamental premise of the law? So Blackstone’s formulation should never be applied in this case? So are you saying for the greater good, let the innocent get suffered too?
We all know the world is not black and white. But just because #metoo, in general, is an empowerment movement, does not mean we have to make that assumption. The idea to challenge the victim is not to make them run away. The notion that we should gas light, someone, the moment someone comes out with a #metoo is against any rational and level-headed thinking.
LikeLike
Rocky
October 17, 2018
MJ Akbar resigns …..good !!
LikeLike
Rocky
October 17, 2018
In case of Chetan Bhagat Vs Ira Trivedi:
To me Ira comes across as a jilted lover who wants to take revenge on his ex Aashiq.
I am sure they had an affair, but it cant be classified as part of Me too movement …
Aside: Now that MJA has resigned , I hope The Lire will force Vinod Dua and Bhatia to resign , Nahee kya ???
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 17, 2018
Due process in 2017. #Fail. Now you see why it is so difficult to trust in the system?
https://thewire.in/gender/sonam-mahajan-rajeev-chandrasekhar-abhinav-khare-me-too
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 17, 2018
@Tonks – if the woman isn’t enthusiastically welcoming your advances and kissing you, isn’t it – shouldn’t it – be clear that your advances aren’t welcome? Many women, in situations such as these, freeze, not knowing what to say or do. We are conditioned not to make a scene, to be compliant, to be ‘susheel’.
If someone takes a throwaway comment made as an obvious joke, and goes to the trouble of acting upon it and demands that the original commenter make good her promise – whether playfully or otherwise – it is harassment.
I have a male acquaintance who, upon meeting women, will swoop in to kiss them. On the mouth if possible. The first couple of times, I turned my head away. That should be pretty clear, no, that I don’t want to be kissed? Well, apparently it wasn’t – his defence [the third time] was the same as your argument: ‘You didn’t make it clear that you didn’t like it.’ My response at the time was, ‘Well, would it be clear to you if I slap you in public?’
The point is, it took two other times before I got over the social awkwardness to call him out.
In any case, this woman’s case is one. It is pretty apparent that he tried his game plan on multiple women, sending them ‘flirtatious texts’ and then asking to meet or for snaps or whatever. The fact that he is a pusillanimous coward doesn’t make him any less than the average garden level creep.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Anu Warrier
October 17, 2018
@Rocky – I’m conflicted about Bhatia. He had asked them to come forward and was willing for the complaints to be investigated. If I remember right, the first woman who tweeted said that ‘young interns’ mailboxes were filled with messages from Bhatia.’ Well, no intern, young or otherwise has come forward to corroborate that. The person’s account has been deleted.
And much as I have little liking for the man, I can only assume this was one of the false allegations made under the cover of the larger movement, hoping that mud would stick.
Having personally worked under the man, I can say that at least while we were working, he neither preyed on any of us female interns nor did he make us uncomfortable working with him – my stint at the paper was marked by his professionalism. And believe me, there were 8 women among the 12 interns and we talked and warned each other about the creeps. I’m pretty sure that if Bhatia had been the sort, something would have been said.
While my experience may not be the same as another woman in another office, I’m willing to wait and watch before calling for his head.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tambi Dude
October 17, 2018
Anu: The system overwhelmingly fails in US too. Barring few high profile cases like that of Bill Cosby, criminal punishment is non existent for sexual harassers. The resignation of Bill-O-R or Les Moonves is due to financial implication. BOR was first accused in early 2000s itself but nothing happened. However in 2017 advertisers started to boycott the OR factor and that’s why Fox gave him the raspberry.
LikeLike
rsylviana
October 17, 2018
Let me begin by saying #IStandWithChinmayi and the other survivors who have come out to speak against Vairamuthu and other peeps. As for Chinmayi inviting VM to her wedding,I’m sure people would’ve made a hue and cry about it if she had chosen to ignore him and would have claimed her to be ‘an ungrateful little bitch who doesn’t understand that without VM’s lyrics she wouldn’t be where she is now’.She has even clarified herself regarding the promotions she had done for him as part of her official commitments.I’m not sure how much of a protest she could have done when she is instructed by the higher powers to actively promote the song/lyrics.
Where I am let down by her is that she doesn’t seem to be interested in taking legal action after all this time or even considered it as an option when she wanted to come out with her story.I’m saying this because she comes from an industry which has historically proved to be against women especially outspoken women ,where even now only a handful of folks have been openly supportive of her or God forbid atleast acknowledge the crusade going on against harassment in the industry.IMO,atleast in her case, without a legal recourse the accusations look dangerously close to being dismissed as mere rumours attempted to tarnish VM’s image because of the whole Andal controversy .
No mother.i mean no mother will smile and laugh at a person who harassed her daughter
@e221 – God, I really really hope you don’t get to hear disturbing stories from sexual abuse survivors who have been abused by their own relatives.They have had to swallow their pride, dignity and peace of mind to invite the abuser to their family events and heck, be part of rituals where the abuser is the main man present.Even if their parents knew about the abuse,they too would have had no choice but to let the predators be a part of their family because ‘Enna irundhaalum avanga namaku sontham’.Trust me it would make your skin crawl with the injustice of it all.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Rocky
October 17, 2018
I have to saty that Tavleen Singh is sounding just as silly as Shoma Choudhry, Anurag Kashyap, Dileep Tahil , Bachi Karkaria, Nirupma Sekhri ( Newslaundry guy’s sister ) et al. who defended Tarun Tejpal.
However the Leftist Cabal was silent then, ab toh aapey sey bahar ho raha hain
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 17, 2018
The more things change, the more they stay the same. Answering questions of ‘Why didn’t she say anything earlier?’, the slut shaming, the failure of due process, and the same old tired plea of ‘innocent men whose lives and careers will be ruined by vindictive women.’
Watch.
LikeLike
AK
October 18, 2018
I am sure in the long thread, somewhere this is addressed. Forgive if it is repetitive. Your question if the accused is hired for work, would the film maker be judged? I would say yes in the case of Vairamuthu.
In every allegation, the lyricist has used an “Introduction to A.R.Rahman” as a bait to gather the phone number or even make the in famous calls. Given this scenario, I wonder what the music director is thinking. Will he continue to work with the lyricist, who is simply the best in the industry and let the introductions keep coming in. Or would he quietly (ARR Style) stop hiring Vairamuthu. There is nothing ARR needs to do in public in this scenario. However, the decision he takes will have a lasting impact.
LikeLike
tonks
October 18, 2018
In my opinion, as important as teaching our sons the importance of getting consent, is teaching our daughters to clearly say, “No” or at least indicate ‘No’ through non verbal communication. If someone harasses after that, then (and only then) he is clearly in the wrong.
LikeLike
anon
October 18, 2018
There have been consequences all over North India, but absolutely zilch has happened here in TN in response to #metoo. Not really surprised, because the prevailing sentiment here is that of “of course men will be like this and it is their right to. Women have to adjust and know better and not enter professions like this” We’re really in caveman times in terms of gender equality so #metoo will fail here in penalizing anyone blamed. I 100% expect VM to be the lyricist in the next Mani Ratnam/ARR film.
LikeLike
Srinivas R
October 18, 2018
@Tonks – “indicate ‘No’ through non verbal”. In the Chetan Bhagat incident, the women in question did turn away, she avoided meeting him in public. Are these not non verbal cues? The problem is one person’s non verbal “no” might be read as silence. As Anu mentioned, some people tend to freeze. I think the way to address it is to teach men that unless there is an explicit consent, treat it as a No. The reason being, inspite of women empowerment and all that, they still have a lot to loose when a harassment incident comes out and are conditioned to freeze or remain silent.
There is another argument I have heard that strong woman would respond immediately. First of all that argument itself is silly. Even keeping that aside, itwhat if the woman is weak. We don’t live in a jungle anymore, one would hope that good behavior is not dependent on how weak or strong the woman is but on common sense.
LikeLiked by 2 people
tonks
October 18, 2018
“The point is, it took two other times before I got over the social awkwardness to call him out.”
“Consent could only exist between equals, not when one person wields (in a career-influencing way) a lot of power over the other. That is coercion.”
@Anu : Though of course yes, I absolutely see how social awkwardness and power imbalance can make saying ‘No’ difficult or impossible
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 18, 2018
Yeah Tavleen is bit off. Just shows even the best can sometimes falter when something conflicts with personal relationship.
LikeLike
Purple Sky
October 18, 2018
Already so many heads have rolled. Many firings, resignations.So, what next? They will not get a job for the next few years, because they have been publicly shamed. Maybe some of them may have the means of going to another country and restart afresh. What about the others? Divorce, joblessness, suicides? Or something much larger that which we can’t forsee or comprehend now?
LikeLike
rsylviana
October 18, 2018
When AMMA was dilly dallying about the actress abduction issue and firing dileep, Kamal and nadigar sangham was quick to take a righteous stand and support the actress
@Siva – Out of curiosity, Did Vishal and others come out in support of the actress only after the allegations against Dileep had been veritably proven? Because that seems to be his reason for not taking any action against Vairamuthu and other folks who have been named as part of the #MeToo movement.
But otherwise his remarks has been all kinds of wrong. The subtle victim shaming by the likes of him and Khushboo have been utterly insensitive to say the least.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anon
October 18, 2018
Just want to leave this here to give you guys a better idea of the mileau #metoo is operating in, in TN
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rocky
October 18, 2018
Yeh Kya Me too hai ??
Kerala nun rape case: Bishop Mulakkal gets flower shower welcome in Jalandhar
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/supporters-shower-rose-petals-on-rape-accused-bishop-in-jalandhar-1370256-2018-10-18?utm_source=it_sticky_footer
LikeLike
Rocky
October 18, 2018
Nice discussion and some very good points made by Meghna and Parvathy. Swara as usual was trying to hijack the conversation . I was really surprised how Parvathy literally went after the Malyalam fim Industry and Malyalis in general. It took me a while to recollect that she is the heroine of Kareeb Kareeb Single. I had really liked her in that movie, and now after watching this interview , my respect for her has gone up ten fold.
LikeLike
tonks
October 18, 2018
Completely understand that with the time it takes for court cases and suchlike (and considering some of this may never even make it to court), a person’s guilt may never be “proved.” So as I said, this is more of an abstract, philosophical question.
So said BR while introducing this post but with heads falling like ninepins, not so abstract after all. I think most people are believing the accusers.
LikeLike
tonks
October 18, 2018
Anon : Thank you so much for posting that video. This is the first time I’m aware of this person but what an amazing woman this Dr Shalini is. How intelligent, aware and articulate. Hats off to the superb way she handled all the questions.
LikeLike
Apu
October 18, 2018
Siva:
“#MeToo is not about proving it in or even taking it to — a court of law. Because more often than not, there is no proof or evidence or witness. It is more than that.
#MeToo is about the victim — moving on …. or at the least attempting to move on.”
Spot on!
Maybe if people understood fully what it is about, then they would stop
(1) saying that it is an elitist movement
(2) it is by people who traded sexual favors to move forward (btw, if someone had to trade sexual favors to get a job done, isn’t that still a harassment?)
rsylviana: “Even if their parents knew about the abuse,they too would have had no choice but to let the predators be a part of their family”
– You beat me to this. E221: You probably have not seen some ugly parts of the world and I do not mean this as sarcasm but genuine grief. “Social appearances” and victim-shaming is so rampant in our society that yes, mothers do smile at their child’s abusers.
Srinivas R: “I think the way to address it is to teach men that unless there is an explicit consent, treat it as a No. “
– Totally.
To add to this to Tonks: putting the onus on a victim to say “no” is sometimes asking for too much :). I am sure child victims and others in case of a power imbalance have difficult saying no, though they might indicate it by their body language. (sorry if I am repeating something that others have said).
Purple Sky: “Already so many heads have rolled”
Your point being?
Tambi Dude:”what does it tell about non BJP govt if during their long rule muslims stayed at the lowest strata of society”
– I am not a BJP or a Congress fan. Not into political hero worship either. My point about hypocrisy of Indian conservatives was totally based on the fact that the same conservative who is against Republican’s anti-immigration policy seem to be forever trying to ship original Indians to Pakistan.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Anon
October 19, 2018
Tonks, if you see, there is not ONE TIME in the whole thing where the interviewer questions VM. Must not watch shit like this gaah. He actually says at one point Brahmin women are known to be easy that’s why we can’t believe chinmayee! And yes dr.shalini is amazingly articulate and has great iq and eq but I don’t agree with all she says.
LikeLiked by 1 person
ramitbajaj01
October 19, 2018
“We have taken a stand not to work with proven offenders. Obviously we’re not going to wait for the whole judicial process to take its course because that can go on for ten, fifteen years, and most people will not even want to file a report. But if there are several choices saying the same thing against one person, it leaves very little room for doubt.”
https://m.timesofindia.com/entertainment/hindi/bollywood/news/meghna-gulzar-on-bollywoods-metoo-reckoning-there-is-a-shakedown-happening-its-not-going-to-be-pleasant-or-pretty/articleshow/66275353.cms
LikeLiked by 1 person
Siva
October 19, 2018
MANK: I guess rsylviana meant the question for you as she had quoted you.
rsylviana: I am not completely aware of the timeline of these guys’ support to Bhavana in her abduction issue, but I totally suspect you are correct. And yes, these guys WILL speak out about Vairamuthu if they have no other choice — viz. if he is unanimously accepted as a predator by everyone else, within the industry and elsewhere.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 19, 2018
I watched that Film Companion interview yesterday – three different points of view, all with one agenda: making sure that women have a safe place to work.
As Swara says, what are women asking for, really? The right to work without being harassed? Is that such a hard thing to wrap our heads around?
What’s even more shameful – and I say this as a Malayali – is that Parvathy’s career is getting side railed. With 6 blockbuster releases that year, she has one film in her kitty today. The price of due process. Because she dared to raise her voice against a powerful man. Well, Malayalam films’ loss – that’s all I can say.
Yesterday, Siddique slammed Aamir and Akshay for supporting the MeToo movement and voiced support for Sajid Khan. He was furious that the WCC had ‘dared’ to ask for a boycott of Dileep. He insisted that Dileep had a ‘right to work’, that the Malayalam industry would ‘stand by him’. (All this from the sets of a Dileep film. Ha!)
He forgot that AMMA had a responsibility towards the survivor of that case as well – they didn’t stand by her; she was pushed out of films by Dileep and his coterie; she has resigned from AMMA. All that doesn’t matter.
Today, AMMA has done a 180 and insisted they support Aamir and Akshay. They suddenly realised, I think, that Akshay is due to shoot with Priyadarshan.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Rocky
October 19, 2018
Vinod Dua from The Liar :
https://scroll.in/article/898819/male-and-on-the-lookout-a-journalist-remembers-vinod-dua-and-entitled-indian-men-in-the-1980s
I remember driving that late afternoon, along Aurobindo Marg by INA market, his left arm around my shoulder, his right on the steering wheel, his singing romantic Hindi songs. I remember taking his arm off my shoulder and saying, “I think this belongs to you.” He wondered why I was being so coy, after all “English girls had a reputation.” I remember laughing and thinking how inane that was.
So why am I singling out Vinod Dua? I’m not, but he has singled himself out, or you might say he’s been hoisted by his own petard. For years, many of my friends have known my story and have continued to work with him, even socialise with him. I accepted that he was on “our side”, of the liberal, the left, and that some things have to be overlooked for the sake of a larger cause. But now, not only is the #MeToo campaign puncturing holes in the perspective of he’s “creative”, “left” or just “a nice guy”, but also, Vinod Dua’s righteous indignation at filmmaker’s Nishtha Jain’s accusations, like MJ Akbar’s and others’, is too much to stomach.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 19, 2018
@Rocky, I’ve given up being surprised. Anger, disgust, frustration at every single one of them who thought that they had a right to do whatever they wanted – and even those emotions are draining.
This is not about party, it is not about Right or Left, Conservative or Liberal, Hindu or Muslim (insert religion of choice here). It is about power, about cultural attitudes of ‘Men will be men’, of exploitation of the vulnerable.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
October 19, 2018
“This is not about party, it is not about Right or Left, Conservative or Liberal, Hindu or Muslim” – On that note, interesting to see that both Dua and Akbar allege conspiracy in their ‘rebuttals’. Am sure many of their faithful minions are going to buy that theory. Heard somebody saying exactly that w.r.t the timing of the Akbar allegations being revealed, never mind that he wasn’t the first one to be outed.
LikeLiked by 1 person
e221
October 20, 2018
@e221 – God, I really really hope you don’t get to hear disturbing stories from sexual abuse survivors who have been abused by their own relatives
E221: “Social appearances” and victim-shaming is so rampant in our society that yes, mothers do smile at their child’s abusers.
I saw a similar Tweet from Siddarth along the same line. But why are we mixing apple and oranges here? Relationship Abuse is completely different from workplace abuse. I get the point but here we are talking about a stranger and a point of time where Chinmayi is already popular not just in TN but throughout India. VM is nobody to Chinmayis Mother. Then why would she greet/Act towards him with such smile and happiness? Here is a guy who called upon one’s daughter and he is no way related to you. Then why would one do that?
Yes, I agree. But I am specifically talking about Chinmayis Case. I am not asking that why it was not bought back then. All I ask is why would she welcome him when she had every opportunity to avoid him? No one is going to question her and I would say that would be a direct rebuke to VM had to see shown her back at that event. Was it because that Chimanyi might lose Opportunity in future because VM might get pissed off?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Purple Sky
October 20, 2018
Apu, my point being this. 👇
Kwan founder Anirban Blah rescued from alleged suicide attempt: https://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/kwan-founder-anirban-blah-saved-from-alleged-suicide-attempt/article25260420.ece
Meghana Gulzar had put it beautifully in her closing comments. Dignity for both the survivors and the accused. (FYI, my comment was not a reply to any comment that you had made. I had not seen yours at all. I was just airing a thought that came in my mind)
LikeLike
rsylviana
October 20, 2018
Was it because that Chimanyi might lose Opportunity in future because VM might get pissed off?
@e221 – Yes, this could be one of the reasons for inviting him to the wedding and yes smiling at him. Also,her mom snubbing VM wouldn’t fly well with the other powerful men in the industry who must have attended the wedding too right??So I can totally understand them having to endure such prickly moments so as to not stir trouble in the industry and their lives.
And your words No mother.i mean no mother made it seem like you included the mothers of victims who had been abused by one of their relatives as well. That’s why I had mentioned them in my comment.
LikeLike
Kay
October 20, 2018
Based on what I have seen Varalakshmi comes across as someone who speaks her mind never worrying about the consequences. I hope she doesn’t start losing future projects because of her support for the movement.
LikeLike
Voldemort
October 20, 2018
Kay : Based on what I have seen Varalakshmi comes across as someone who speaks her mind never worrying about the consequences.
As early as January or February 2017, she started “Save Shakti” for the security of women in the industry, against practises like the casting couch. This was because some producer had apparently signed her for a film, and later asked, “So when can we meet outside?”, which she hadn’t understood at first. When she had refused to hook up and told him to get out, he had said that she was missing out the opportunity in the film.
She talks about this in an interview with Sreedhar Pillai.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 20, 2018
I hope she doesn’t start losing future projects because of her support for the movement.
She will, Kay. Look at Parvathy’s case. Six blockbusters last year. No films this year. Look at Bhavana, shunted out of the Malayalam film industry.
@Purple Sky – Colour me cynical about that suicide attempt. He sent a note to TOI just in time for him to be rescued.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 20, 2018
@ Purple Sky: From his note to TOI, by the way, he admits the allegations are true. Defends himself by saying he ‘didn’t know better’. And then shows that by committing suicide, he’s still only thinking of himself, thereby adding cowardice to his pusillanimity.
In his mail to the Times of India, Blah, 40, wrote: “Without trying to justify any of my actions, I just want to say that I have tried to be the best person I can be. I didn’t have the strength to cope with what happened to me as a child in a healthy way. I was never able to separate sex from power, to make it a part of love, and somewhere along the way, one part of me turned into a monster… You will find my body somewhere near Vashi creek. My licence will be with me as identification plus my tattoo. I am wearing blue jeans and a t-shirt. The monster inside me has won against the other part of me for too long, it’s time to kill it once and for all.”
I feel like Scrooge. ‘Bah, humbug!’
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 20, 2018
The Malayalam industry’s conundrum – who actually speaks for AMMA and whom do they represent?
https://www.youthkiawaaz.com/2018/10/clash-of-words-ammas-stance-on-wccs-questions-are-confusing/
LikeLike
Srinivas R
October 20, 2018
TN is a totally screwed up state.
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/how-did-he-torture-you-media-apathy-me-too-presser-tamil-film-industry-women-90294
LikeLike
tonks
October 20, 2018
Infact, at several points of the press conference, the reporters were literally shouting at these women.
Amongst the questions asked to the survivors were –
“Why didn’t you complain to the Vishaka committee? Did you go to them first before putting it on social media?”
Multiple attempts to inform the reporters that there was no committee and that was point of this meeting, was ignored.
To Leena Manimekalai, who has recounted the harrowing experience of alleged sexual harassment in the hands of Director Susi Ganesan several times, a reporter asked – “What exactly happened? Where did it happen? What was the kind of torture he gave you?”
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/how-did-he-torture-you-media-apathy-me-too-presser-tamil-film-industry-women-90294?amp#referrer=https://www.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s
LikeLike
MANK
October 20, 2018
Not just the tamil film industry, but the tamil nadu media is the worst when it comes to treatment of women. Chinmayi begging with her folded hands and hitting her head in front of the shouting media is a searing visual. Its great that she is going ahead legally against VM
LikeLike
MANK
October 20, 2018
And finally thalaivar speaks
LikeLike
E221
October 21, 2018
Good interview!!
LikeLike
Anon
October 21, 2018
Why are they so scared to even say , ” if the allegations are true, I condemn this person” I haven’t seen one insider say even that much. Have we no one with any integrity in the whole industry? Things must be really really bad if a lyricist cannot not be supported.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Voldemort
October 21, 2018
Anon : Have we no one with any integrity in the whole industry? Things must be really really bad if a lyricist cannot not be supported.
Exactly my thoughts. Shame on them. Even Rajinikanth only has this thing to say, “Don’t misuse the movement”. Disgusting.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Srinivas R
October 21, 2018
Anon, Voldermort – I think there are far too many skeletons in the cupboard, so everyone is hesitant to lend support to #MeToo
There is minor support from some directors, though not direct condemnation of anyone.
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/me-too-listen-victims-urge-directors-vetrimaaran-jananathan-writer-jeyamohan-90297
LikeLike
Maru
October 22, 2018
Thanks to those who posted video clips on conversations around #Me Too In India. I was in despair at the treatment meted out to Chinmayi and the ladies on the panel by the Tamil Film Media hanging my head in shame
brangan , as a way to pick up from where Anupama left off have you considered a FC South panel discussion on the issue in the Tamil Film industry which seems to have woefully lagged behind everyone else? Even if it means talking to the SAME folks who have been vocal on social media and the press to this point this is a conversation worth belaboring, esp if folks who wield power in the professional associations (Vishal and ilk) are willing to engage .
LikeLiked by 2 people
Karou
October 22, 2018
https://t.co/9fNH4SX4mp
A.R.Rahman’s sister pretty much saying Vairamuthu is an open secret in the industry. And yet instead of following this line of enquiry and asking her why no one else has spoken about this or about why then people like Mani Rathnam and ARR continue to work with him, the interviewer goes on to ask her why Chinmayi is talking about it now and more character assassination of Chinmayi follows. Really how terrible is Tamil media?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Maru
October 22, 2018
Phew! That was one heck of an illuminating interview – thanks Karou for the link. If I wasn’t sure before, I’m convinced now that Chinmayi will pay a big price for speaking up. It’s appalling that Reihana treats Vairamuthu’s reputation as a serial harasser as a matter of course but hauls Chinmayi over the coals for waiting 15 years to speak up. Victim shaming is the name of the game – how women are dressed is key according to her and of course wearing sleeveless outfits is also imprudent and inviting harassment. The more I hear about this issue, the more depressed I get – there is NO hope for attitudes to change in India anytime soon.
LikeLiked by 5 people
Srinivas R
October 22, 2018
“It’s appalling that Reihana treats Vairamuthu’s reputation as a serial harasser as a matter of course but hauls Chinmayi over the coals for waiting 15 years to speak up” – True, also apalling that the interviewer never pursued this line of questioning, about why it never came out if it’s an open secret Stating that A.R.R knew nothing seems like a convenient lie.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Karou
October 22, 2018
Exactly. Now because of this combined with the terrible media narrative that has constantly targeted Chinmayi completely ignoring the other accounts of which two other women have come out publicly, people are like “Okay, Vairamuthu may be a predator but Chinmayi is still an opportunist”. As to what opportunities Chinmayi is going to get because of this, no one seems to know. People are only going to distance themselves from her because of ‘controversy’.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Rocky
October 22, 2018
https://www.filmibeat.com/bollywood/news/2018/me-too-effect-dalip-tahil-records-actress-statement-before-shooting-a-rape-scene-for-a-film-278542.html
veteran actor Dalip Tahil, who is working on Sudhir Mishra’s upcoming film, was to shoot a rape sequence for the movie. While the actor agreed to do the scene, he, however, had a prior condition.
According to a report in Navbharat Times, Dalip initially refused to enact the rape scene. However, he later agreed to do the scene after the makers convinced him. But, he demanded a confirmation letter from the actress featuring in the scene stating that she is comfortable shooting the rape scene and is doing so without any pressure.
LikeLiked by 1 person
rsylviana
October 22, 2018
“Okay, Vairamuthu may be a predator but Chinmayi is still an opportunist”.
This ! Oh God, I’ve been trying to understand through twitter why so many people seem to be having this line of thought and turns out Chinmayi’s mom used the infamous “strategy” word in one of her interviews. This has convinced people that Vairamuthu deserves atleast a midget of doubt whereas Chinmayi deserves zilch. All this inspite of me reminding them that Chinmayi is not the only woman who has come out to accuse Vairamuthu and mustering enough amount of courage to out one of the most influential people in the industry doesn’t make her an opportunist .
also apalling that the interviewer never pursued this line of questioning, about why it never came out if it’s an open secret
Exactly! After watching Chinmayi face some disgusting questions in most of her interviews, I was trying really hard not to be mad at the interviewers thinking ‘hey its their job to uncover the full story however ugly and uncomfortable it maybe ‘ but here we have someone pretty important attesting to the exploitative nature of Vairamuthu and yet somehow the interviewer is letting it all slide by. Scary scary times indeed.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Anu Warrier
October 22, 2018
More on Chetan Bhagat who has been riding the ‘She’s been asking for it’ defence with regard to Ira Trivedi.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/hindi/bollywood/news/metoo-movement-ira-trivedi-shares-yet-another-account-of-chetan-bhagats-misconduct/articleshow/66315234.cms
LikeLike
Srinivas R
October 22, 2018
https://www.thequint.com/amp/story/voices%2Fmy-report%2Fmetoo-atamil-poet-vairamuthu-accused
The continued silence of the Industry about VM is shameful.
LikeLike
Arjun
October 23, 2018
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/me-too-now-shruthi-hariharan-accuses-arjun-sarja/articleshow/66292259.cms
Don’t know what to make of this. People familiar with moviemaking might know better – is every detail of an intimate scene “scripted”? Seems to be a slippery slope to me at least.
LikeLike
sanjana
October 23, 2018
https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/malayalam/parvathy-on-fighting-misogyny-in-malayalam-cinema-5413329/
LikeLike
Kay
October 25, 2018
Music Academy drops 7 artists from the Margazhi season based on metoo allegations.
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/me-too-allegations-madras-music-academy-drops-7-artistes-margazhi-season-90554
LikeLiked by 2 people
Anuja Chandramouli
October 26, 2018
Sometimes you click on a “news article” because the twitterati are buzzing vehemently (even by their supercharged standards) about it and then you curse yourself for having taken the bait and subjected yourself to a full mind blast of unmitigated bullshit. Allow me to elaborate. I am referring to Rakhi Sawant’s especial brand of hogwash with a generous dose of cheap gimmickery.
This person has accused Tanushree Dutta of having drugged and raped her. There were further wild allegations that Tanushree is actually a man, that she wasn’t a true sanskari type (unlike Rakhi herself who had tossed a dupatta over her head duh!) or something like that but I had run out of patience by then.
But here’s the thing… New wave feminists have been insisting that all victims should be believed and if one were to question the veracity of their claim that automatically makes him or her an enabler who has contributed to the victim’s trauma as well as being a troll/stooge/bhakt. By this logic you are bound to believe Tanushree’s claims as well as Rakhi’s and cast aside things like proof because you know, both are women with a #MeToo story to share. I, however given my dim view of human nature firmly believe that trust is all well and good, but it is more important to verify stuff. Listen to victims, but examine the facts before you insist on clamouring for the accused to be punished or fired or shamed or lynched. That is all I ask. Who knew it would be such a big ask nowadays?
LikeLike
Srinivas R
October 26, 2018
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/sruthi-hariharan-says-no-compromise-arjun-sarja-will-fight-legal-battles-ahead-90592
How do i not guffaw? Like nationalism, looks like Hinduism has become the all purpose defense against allegations, how unfortunate.
In what came as no surprise, Arjun Sarja’s media manager – Prashanth Sampargi, politicised the issue and called the Me Too movement anti-Hindu.
“The Me Too movement in India is an anti-Hindu campaign designed to target Prime Minister Narendra Modi in a run up to the 2019 election,” he said.
Sampargi made more bizarre allegations and claimed that Arjun was being targeted as he was planning to construct a Hanuman temple worth Rs 25 crores and Sruthi had connections to communists in Kerala.
“The Christian missionaries in the US are trying to hurt Hindu sentiments and malign Arjun Sarja’s name,” Sampargi said.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Karou
October 26, 2018
When I first read Shruti’s post on what happened I remember thinking that since the incident happened on set in front of everyone, Arjun is just going to get some 20 people to stand up for him and quash the whole thing. But now seeing these ridiculous statements and the intimidation makes me wonder if this is to prevent to more serious allegations from ever surfacing.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 26, 2018
@Anuja – before you slam ‘new wave feminists’ for their stance on believing all women: I’m not sure I’m new age anything. But most of us do have critical faculties. The stories that are being believed are those where multiple women are corroborating stories against one person.
For instance, the Varun Grover allegation disappeared as the accuser has vanished. Siddharth Bhatia’s case has also been generally decided as a vendetta since neither women has seen fit to do anything other than make drive-by accusations. The people who have ‘resigned’ or been asked to step down are those against whom multiple accusations have been levelled, and there is proof – whether in screenshots or corroborating events/dates.
Why do we not believe Rakhi Sawant? Because Tanushree Dutta’s story is corroborated by other events. Her FIR 8 years ago. (Where’s your due process, Anusha?) The video of her car being attacked by MNS goons. Corroborating statements from the AD on the set.
In any case, sure, let them investigate Rakhi’s allegations as well.
Collateral damage will always be there in seismic social change. It’s par for the course. And women who fight sexual harassment/assault know that only too well. They have been collateral damage for years – or have you missed all the instances where women were forced to quit after complaining about sexual harassment? Or Banwari Devi who has been waiting for justice for decades? All but one of the accused have died in the interim. And in all these decades, she and her husband have faced immense problems – not being allowed to draw water from the communal well, being harassed in public, etc.
It is easy enough to slam feminism, new age or not. But your belief in due process also comes from a place of privilege.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Anu Warrier
October 26, 2018
@ Srinivas – Sruthi has posted a stinging reply. She has proof. And she’s fighting it out legally. All these women who have come out with sexual harassment stories have been writing to the NWC or their companies’ internal complaint cells (which ignored them the first time – or many times – around).
Tangentially: Social media outing is only the first step. The men are being named and shamed, sure. But the bigger fight comes after that. It’s not as if the minute some man is accused of harassment, his career is shot. I’m tired of that narrative being peddled. Sure, there’s collective anger at this ongoing harassment. But the next steps are being streamlined and women are going through due process because now, there’s strength in numbers.
Social media calling out has resulted in companies and organisations actually paying attention to the issue. In fact, the accused and the companies / organisations the accused belong to, are all being held to account. Not because they suddenly care about women’s safety, but because it hurts their bottomline. That’s the only reason they are waking up to the fact that these men need to be investigated.
Women speaking out are putting their names, their reputations and even their careers on line. The sudden concern for ‘oh, the few innocent men’ is puzzling to me. When innocent women were being harmed, where was the outrage? When these women who have been harmed are coming out with their stories, they are still being victimised – the hatred, the misogyny, the shaming – does anyone honestly think that these women really want to go through all this?
The culture of silence has to end sometime. Or the culture where some men feel empowered to treat women as their sexual property will continue and the victims will continue to be complicit in their own harassment.
All women are asking for is the right to work in a safe environment. Where their only worry is whether they are doing their job well enough. Is that too big an ask?
LikeLiked by 4 people
Anuja Chandramouli
October 26, 2018
“@Anuja – before you slam ‘new wave feminists’ for their stance on believing all women: I’m not sure I’m new age anything.”
My comments weren’t directed at you Anu. I just pointed out some of my issues with the #MeToo narrative and the perils of hashtag activism. Rakhi Sawant’s statement was very obviously made up but in most cases it’s far more complicated to ascertain the truth and I am against the one size fits all policy, strictly on principle. That is all.
” But most of us do have critical faculties. The stories that are being believed are those where multiple women are corroborating stories against one person.” Of course Anu, this is how YOU see it but how can you generalize that line of thinking to all feminists? During the Aziz Ansari case, I got into a public argument with someone I knew on Twitter and this person sent me the most viciously worded personal message because I said pretty much the same thing I say here: An anonymous allegation is just that and in a democracy one is innocent until proven guilty. Not every one is level headed about these things Anu and I have extremist feelings about any kind of extremism.
As to some of the problem areas IMO, Raya Sarkar’s list for obvious reasons; Asia Argento was one of the many women who came out against Weinstein but clearly her own victimhood did not stop her from victimizing another and then lying about it; The allegations against Chetan Bhagat by Ira Trivedi and Anushree Majumdar also seem to occupy that grey area where it is hard to say who is being truthful. Sure, CB comes across as a flirt and creep but there are too many who seem overjoyed at the chance to tear him down because of his dizzying success levels which has also spawned bitter envy and hatred towards him. Even before the release of his last book he was slapped with plagiarism charges by a girl who was clearly lying. So my problem is that this is not a very objective process and in a way it is far more flawed than an obviously flawed judicial system with it’s due process or delayed process or whatever.
Given that as women we have fought long and hard against (slut)shaming and character assassination we shouldn’t be in such a tearing hurry to dole out the same treatment to others even if we feel perfectly justified in doing so. Why become the very things we have resisted and continue to resist?
“It is easy enough to slam feminism, new age or not. But your belief in due process also comes from a place of privilege.” I am not slamming feminism merely some excesses that don’t work for me. And of course I am privileged. But the thing is so are you and most of the others who feel they are activists because they have a platform to air their opinions. It is something we do because we can and want to. It may cause ripples in our glittering circles but let us not kid ourselves into thinking that by doing so we are providing a voice for the voiceless, striking a blow for the oppressed women out there who are forced to live in hovels or brothels and actually making a gosh darn difference in the lives of the not so privileged.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
October 26, 2018
“But your belief in due process also comes from a place of privilege.” – Indeed and I sure as heck wouldn’t believe in due process if I suffered a hit and run. Have had a phone stolen and lodged an FIR. What due process?
This whole topic comes up, interestingly, in Murder on the orient express, especially in the ITV version which I watched after catching the Brannagh one on a TV channel. Totally different context but can you believe in a system after it has broken your faith in it? And I am not even saying let’s turn into a banana republic, just that it’s complicated. It’s easy to choose answers from an idealistic point of view but the world has not been idealistic for far too long for us to hope it will ever be.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Anu Warrier
October 26, 2018
My comments weren’t directed at you Anu.
I didn’t think it was. That was just my general disclaimer. 🙂
Asia Argento was one of the many women who came out against Weinstein but clearly her own victimhood did not stop her from victimizing another and then lying about it;
Sure. No one said this couldn’t be complicated. Because Asia Argento was an abuser in another context doesn’t make her not a victim in the Weinstein case.
Two, it is pretty much established that victims may go on to become abusers themselves because that’s the cycle they know.
Of course Anu, this is how YOU see it but how can you generalize that line of thinking to all feminists?
Anuja, you quote me and then make this statement? 🙂
Once again: But most of us do have critical faculties.
I certainly do not think that being a feminist means that person doesn’t have biases.
Why become the very things we have resisted and continue to resist?
What women are doing is nowhere near slut-shaming. They are naming their accusers. They are, in most cases, providing corroborating evidence. Whether in the form of screenshots of conversations or by having other women come out and back them up.
As far as I can see, the victims are still the ones who are being slut-shamed. The reason this movement took off is because making formal complaints didn’t work in most cases. Or because the culture of shaming the victim was so strong that many of them remained silent.
I can tell you – for a fact – that the reason I did not mention my harassment to my parents was that they would have made me resign my job. I wanted to work, to do something with my life – not just get married and have kids. (Disclaimer: My sister wanted to get married and have kids. That’s a perfectly valid choice of ‘doing something with her life’. It isn’t mine.)
so are you and most of the others who feel they are activists because they have a platform to air their opinions. and let us not kid ourselves into thinking that by doing so….striking a blow for the oppressed women out there who are forced to live in hovels or brothels and actually making a gosh darn difference in the lives of the not so privileged.
I am privileged. I have never denied it. Whether it be my family background, or my education or even my caste. And yes, all those things give me a platform to air my opinions. Why not? My caste, class, education and family background did not prevent me from being sexually harassed.
Are we going into Comparison Olympics? The race to the bottom to see whose traumas are more worthy of being given a platform? Sure, the women in the brothel have it a darn sight harder than any woman from my background. So? Or is it that because they have it harder than I do, I should shut up about this?
Can one not work to changing something somewhere without being excoriated for not working to changing situations across the board? Talking about our sexual harassment and working to create a harassment-free workspace is kidding myself that change may percolate down to those more unfortunate than I am?
Change has to start somewhere. It has begun here. And the cynical part of me realises that when the voices that agitate for change are in privileged positions, the powers that be are forced to listen. It’s easier to shut the mouth of a woman in a brothel than it is to stifle the voices of educated middle-upper class women who are using the tools they have to channel their outrage.
And what’s more, women in regional media in smaller cities are seeing the benefits of this movement. Their male colleagues are thinking twice before sending them porn videos. Or sexually-charged messages.
It’s a small step but an important one.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Anu Warrier
October 26, 2018
I sure as heck wouldn’t believe in due process if I suffered a hit and run. Have had a phone stolen and lodged an FIR. What due process?
Madan, Word!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 27, 2018
If anyone is still interested: this is an interview with Jodi Kantor, who along with a co-reporter broke the story of Harvey Weinstein. Here, she talks about a lot of things that we are discussing with the Indian MeToo movement now – due process, the whisper network, the culture of silence and settlement, how office romances will now play out.
LikeLike
Siva
October 28, 2018
Srinivas, Anu, Madan:
When she came out, Sruthi very well knew what she was getting into. And yet, she did it anyway. I mean, we do remember the exact words she used in her outing tweet. This seems to be one thick skinned girl.
” #metoo #comingout against all odds. Inspite of the all the comments, backlash and misogyny that will follow … Bring it on ! ”
And then the stinging reply that Anu spoke about. Wow! That is pure badass. I have not even seen her onscreen before this. But after reading this reply, I had only one thing to say to her: You Go Girl 🙂
She says,
1) ” I know my truth. You do what you want to, and I shall do what I have to. Have Fun! ”
She does know how our judicial system will eat up years of her career. Hence,
2) ” Whatever, whoever says, I stand my ground and will always be there fighting for what I think is right. It will be a long drawn tiring battle – and I am prepared for it.
Have a fantastic day y’all 🙂 ”
That final closing felt more to me like — ” Come on y’all bitches. I’m ready to fight! ” 😀
Direct Links to the images in the reply tweet:
LikeLike
Rahul
October 28, 2018
Anuja Chandramouli –
“But here’s the thing… New wave feminists have been insisting that all victims should be believed and if one were to question the veracity of their claim that automatically makes him or her an enabler who has contributed to the victim’s trauma as well as being a troll/stooge/bhakt. ”
Anuja, you are making a legal argument . The thrust of recent metoo movement and “believe the victims” is a blow-back against the culture of disbelief , harassment and ostracization that normally a victim has to be face when they come out with their accounts. As far as false allegations are concerned they do exist but they are probably on or below par with the false allegations under other laws. I am copying from this report –
Click to access Publications_NSVRC_Overview_False-Reporting.pdf
Quote
“The majority of sexual assaults, an estimated 63 percent, are never reported to the police (Rennison, 2002). The prevalence of false reporting cases of sexual violence is low (Lisak, Gardinier, Nicksa, & Cote, 2010), yet when survivors come forward, many face scrutiny or
encounter barriers. For example, when an assault is reported, survivors may feel that their victimization has been redefined and even distorted by those who investigate, process, and
categorize cases. ”
End Quote
We should all acknowledge that both law enforcement and society at large needs to believe the victims . This does not mean that the accused is not allowed to present their defense or that none of the allegations will turn out to be false after investigation, but the knee jerk responses which range from “why did you not report it before?” and ” seems to be an opportunist” needs to stop and survivors and their accounts needs to be treated with respect. To reiterate, this is what the “new wave feminists” are insisting on and I do not see anything wrong with that.
LikeLiked by 3 people
sanjana
November 2, 2018
“Would Sajid Khan ask Janhvi Kapoor or Sara Ali Khan such a question?” – Aahana Kumra on Sajid asking her if she would do it with a DOG
http://www.bollywoodhungama.com/news/bollywood/sajid-khan-ask-janhvi-kapoor-sara-ali-khan-question-aahana-kumra-sajid-asking-dog/
LikeLike
Srinivas R
November 2, 2018
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/mj-akbar-raped-me-us-based-journalist-details-horrific-ordeal-90954
LikeLike
Rocky
November 2, 2018
MJ Akbar, wife respond to journalist Pallavi Gogoi’s rape accusation [Read full statement]
https://www.ibtimes.co.in/mj-akbar-wife-respond-journalist-pallavi-gogois-rape-accusation-read-full-statement-784621
The former union minister’s wife Mallika Akbar also made a statement in this regard, calling Gogoi’s allegations a lie.
Mallika Akbar said in her statement, “More than 20 years ago, Pallavi Gogoi caused unhappiness and discord in our home. I learned of her and my husband’s involvement through her late night phone calls and her public display of affection in my presence. In her flaunting the relationship she caused anguish and hurt to my entire family.”
“I don’t know Pallavi’s reasons for telling this lie, but a lie it is,” read Mallika’s statement
LikeLike
TambiDude
November 2, 2018
Rocky: Beware, the liberals will brand you anti-women.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Shankar
November 3, 2018
“A.R.Rahman’s sister pretty much saying Vairamuthu is an open secret in the industry. And yet instead of following this line of enquiry and asking her why no one else has spoken about this or about why then people like Mani Rathnam and ARR continue to work with him, the interviewer goes on to ask her why Chinmayi is talking about it now and more character assassination of Chinmayi follows. Really how terrible is Tamil media?”
Really, why are these makers continuing to work with VM? Has anyone spoken against VM? Baddy, maybe that’s your next question to Mani or ARR when you speak to them…what’s their stance on this?
LikeLike
Srinivas R
November 3, 2018
https://scroll.in/reel/897986/documentary-but-what-was-she-wearing-delves-into-the-efficacy-of-sexual-harassment-laws-in-india
Relevant to the discussion here
LikeLike
Karou
November 3, 2018
@ Shankar : ARR put out a wishy washy statement to the tune of ‘I support women but Metoo shouldn’t be misused’ after that interview with his sister blew up. He also made this very cryptic statement – ‘Some of the names have shocked me, both victims and perpetrators’.
This statement might have flown before that interview with his sister, but after that to not even dare to speak the names of the people involved is just cowardice.
I remember in the Vetrimaaran interview BR name-drops the Metoo movement but doesn’t really push it. Whereas in another interview when directly questioned, Vetrimaaran comes out in support of the movement. Maybe a lot of the folks in the industry sympathise with the movement but aren’t going to voice it out until directly questioned.
LikeLiked by 2 people
TambiDude
November 4, 2018
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2018/11/judge-kavanaugh-s-sexual-assault-accuser-allegedly-admits-she-lied-wanted-attention.html
LikeLike