Posted on October 11, 2018
Honest Raj and Rahini David asked for an OTT thread on this topic, so….
PS: To those who said even the OTT threads are going way out of topic, I don’t mind that. At least, this keeps the film/review threads “pure.”
 | Rahul on Election talk… for those… |
 | Rocky on Election talk… for those… |
| Rocky on Sajid Ali’s ‘Woh Bhi Din The’,… |
 | akemsk on Election talk… for those… |
 | Satya on Girish AD’s ‘Premalu’ infuses… |
 | mvky on Readers Write In #681: Smart G… |
 | abishekspeare on Election talk… for those… |
 | theeversriram on Election talk… for those… |
 | MuchMuchMurghi on Imtiaz Ali’s ‘Amar Singh Chamk… |
| Rahul on Girish AD’s ‘Premalu’ infuses… |
| Rocky on Election talk… for those… |
| Rocky on Election talk… for those… |
| Rocky on Election talk… for those… |
 | Madan on Election talk… for those… |
| Madan on Election talk… for those… |
Baradwaj Rangan 
sanjana
October 11, 2018
There are many places where everyone is allowed. Let us visit them. Why Sabarimala? Let us leave some space for men if they so insist. Let us create a place where men are not allowed. Have a replica of Sabarimala at home and visit anytime! And we are allowed after reaching 50 or so. We can wait. Both sides are making it a prestige issue and the result wont be clear.
LikeLike
Rahini David
October 11, 2018
I am a non-Hindu woman who is not exactly interested in visiting Sabarimala. I am also a non-religious person who has never had much understanding about concepts of ‘sacred’ and ‘taboo’, words that are usually used widely in these discussions. It is the same with “tradition”. A word means loads to some people and just bewilders me.
I heard a small snippet of conversation when someone said “But when women can visit so many other temples, why Sabarimala?”
I had many replies. Not related to religion per se, not even feminism, but just about the “certain people not allowed” thingie.
I have doubts about “women only” temples that are apparently in existence too. Not to mention Muslim places of worship.
It, of course, is certainly not my business. It does not affect my daily life even distantly.
I am just asking that people who have the time express what they felt about it when they heard that the verdict was as it was.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Voldemort
October 11, 2018
The women who feel it is against their tradition to visit the temple, can still choose not to visit it till they turn 50. The verdict does not affect them, in any way. But they cannot, and should not stop other women who want to visit it. I cannot thrust my beliefs onto someone else. I can stick to my beliefs and should not mind if others don’t, unless it causes me any harm, because we are talking about a religion which accepts Atheism and Hedontism as a part of it.
LikeLiked by 13 people
Krishikari
October 11, 2018
@Sanjana “There are many places where everyone is allowed. Let us visit them. Why Sabarimala? Let us leave some space for men if they so insist.”
Would you say the same if it was a caste or racial restriction? Traditionally brahmins don’t go to Sabarimala but you don’t see a formal restriction and nor should there be. If they really want to go, they could indeed go.
@Rahini I also feel I should not have an opinion about this but here goes. Would love to hear your many replies too.
Sabarimala is very close to my maternal native place in Kerala and I have seen the male pilgrims pass by our house since childhood. We don’t visit nor are we Hindus but freely opened our property to be a campsite for pilgrims. That’s how Kerala was.
However in my grandparents or great grandparents time women used to visit Sabrimala. Young mothers took their babies for their first “chorunnu” solid rice meal cermony. Photos of these visits exist. So this men only thing is not such an ancient tradition. If you look at recent history many such restrictions be it caste or gender based keep changing according to some head priests dictats. My view is let this change also happen peacefully.
Another thing is that this is a legal issue not a religious one that all public spaces should be open to all genders. Religious places fall under the law too. Why not leave it up to the culture of the place instead of forced restrictions?
LikeLiked by 2 people
Vrcs
October 11, 2018
I could be a chain smoker, I could smoke all day in my house, it is my business. If I am visiting my friend’s house and if my friend doesn’t like people smoking in his house, I was brought up with the decency to respect his belief, his feelings and not to shout at him saying smoking is my right and everyone in the world has a right to smoke. Sabarimala is a home that is sacred and has been built on several beliefs. Yes, one could be politically right but sometimes it is considered basic decency to respect a scared house that has been there for centuries and not stamp over the beliefs of millions of people.
Bottom line is it’s not your house.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Madan
October 11, 2018
Well said Voldemort. Indeed allowing women in that age group doesn’t affect other women nor men. If it is wrong for women of that age to visit the temple, God will suitably judge them. His devotees don’t need to burden themselves with ‘protecting’ his celibacy. I mean, really, a celibate God needs to be shielded from young women?
LikeLiked by 5 people
San
October 11, 2018
I don’t know if Sabarimala is private organisation funded by its devotees or if its get government funds etc but if Sabarimala is a private temple, then they should have the right say who gets to go there, otherwise no..
LikeLiked by 1 person
Purple Sky
October 11, 2018
My father has been a visiting Sabarimala every year atleast twice for the last 30 odd years. Even I have been there from my first standard till my fourth standard. The first time I went, I went with both my grandmothers. When I reached fifth standard, my mother insisted that it is time to stop. Though technically, I could have gone that year too. That was the first time in my life, I am facing discrimination because I was a girl. And that ten year old me, was frankly pissed off… It didn’t make sense to me, why I couldn’t go just because I am a girl. But frankly now, I just don’t give a damn…
The first question my mother asked once the verdict was out was whether I would go, since the rules are changed. I don’t think I will go. I don’t think general people are ready to accept this so soon and I am not going to be any crusader. And frankly the facilities at Sabarimala is quite meager. I remember, my father using all his contacts to get us a decent accommodation and food, sleeping on the floors etc. It IS really about austerity.
And BR sir, when I saw the Sabarimala thread, I thought the same thing you said for Rafale… Oh no not again…
LikeLike
Enigma
October 11, 2018
I welcome any step that increases religiosity in the society. If this decision inspires more people to visit and pray at Sabarimala, that makes me happy.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Purple Sky
October 11, 2018
San: temples in Kerala are mostly run by devaswom boards and Sabarimala part of the Travancore devaswom board.
LikeLike
Purple Sky
October 11, 2018
Also, this point that Ayappan is a brahmachari is not completely true. Pls see below taken from Wikipedia.
As per the temple history, the Sastha temple at Sabarimala is one of the five Sastha temples founded by Lord Parasurama. The other Sastha temples in this group of five includes the Ayyappan Temples:[12] at Kulathupuzha, where the Sastha appears as a Balaka or child; at Aryankavu where the Lord appears as a Brahmachari or young man; at Achankovil Shastha Temple, where the lord leads the Grihastha Ashrama life here and depicted along with his two wives – Purna and Pushkala, at Sabarimala, where the lord is depicted in the Vanaprastha or form of renunciation; at Poonambala Medu the Lord appears as a yogi and where the “makaravilaku’ is lit.
And I can confirm Achankovil Sastha temple does exist as my friends were there this year.
LikeLike
Srinivas R
October 11, 2018
” so this men only thing is not such an ancient tradition” – wasn’t aware of that at all. Do share pics if possible. Just out of curiosity.
LikeLiked by 1 person
sanjana
October 11, 2018
“@Sanjana “There are many places where everyone is allowed. Let us visit them. Why Sabarimala? Let us leave some space for men if they so insist.”
Would you say the same if it was a caste or racial restriction? Traditionally brahmins don’t go to Sabarimala but you don’t see a formal restriction and nor should there be. If they really want to go, they could indeed go.”
My point is that this has become a prestige issue. No one wants to lose face. I dont have problem about anyone visiting any place because I dont believe in traditions or taboos. I dont believe in mantras or Quran prayers or church rituals. If somebody do these things I wish I had that kind of simple faith!
LikeLike
Rahul
October 11, 2018
Have not been keeping up with recent threads BR, what does OTT stand for? I thought it meant “Over the top” – but I guess that is not what it is here.
LikeLike
brangan
October 11, 2018
Rahul: Off the Topic.
So that the film threads remain uncluttered.
LikeLike
Voldemort
October 11, 2018
Krishikari : However in my grandparents or great grandparents time women used to visit Sabrimala. Young mothers took their babies for their first “chorunnu” solid rice meal cermony. Photos of these visits exist. So this men only thing is not such an ancient tradition. If you look at recent history many such restrictions be it caste or gender based keep changing according to some head priests dictats.
Exactly. I remember reading that women were allowed till the 1930s. Even a little after the 30s, women of the royal families have been allowed inside the temple.
I also read somewhere that this restriction was imposed because they had to cross dangerous jungles to reach the place and that there were dacoit groups hiding in the jungles that would mercilessly harm and murder people, so taking along young women wasn’t safe.
Even if we agree to the above reason, (as much as I think this can’t have been the reason to restricting women), now there are no safety concerns whatsoever. So why should women not be allowed now?
LikeLiked by 2 people
sanjana
October 11, 2018
The picture in the north of India.
The number of women kanwariyas has increased over the last several years. In Kashi, a large number women kanwariyas can be seen chanting ‘Har Har Mahadev’ along with their male counterparts as they make their way through the serpentine Vishwanath Gali to offer gangajal to Lord Shiva at Kashi Vishwanath temple during Shrawan month.
Soon after reaching Kashi, the women clad in saffron and holding their kanwars head to Dashashwamedh ghat where they take a holy dip and collect Gangajal. The groups offer prayers to Baba Kashi Vishwanath and start their journey back home with the holy water, which they offer to Lord Shiva in any ancient temple near their respective native places.
Septuagenarian Vijay Narayan, a socialist leader said, “I have been a regular visitor to Godowlia Chowk for the last five decades. There were no woman kanwariyas till a few years back. It all began around five years ago and now women kanwariyas can be seen in groups with their male counterparts in Kashi though their number is still not very large.”
He urged the administration to improve security as number of women kanwariyas was expected to rise in the coming years.
Pt Prasad Dixit, a trustee of Shri Kashi Vishwanath Mandir Trust, backs Vijay Narayan and says in recent years, many women kanwariyas could be spotted in Kashi. “Their figure has gradually increased in past few years. Many women kanwariyas can be seen sitting on the stairs of Dashashwamedh Ghat and also on streets,” said Dixit.
After offering prayers in Kashi, Kalawati Devi, a kanwariya from Jaunpur started for her home along with Gangajal where she would offer prayers to Trilochan Mahadev, an ancient temple of Lord Shiva. “I carry kanwar every year. This is the fourth time that I took part in the kanwar yatra. Usually I come with groups of male kanwariyas,” she said. Her preparations for the yatra begin a fortnight before the holy shrawan month.
Sarita Devi, who is also part of the group, said, she doesn’t feel tired during the long journey as faith keeps her going. Sarita walks with the group of kanwariyas, led by a male. Lalita Devi, Pramila, Durga Devi and Jaya Devi are also among the kanwariyas from Jaunpur. Kanwariyaas from various adjoining districts and even a large number from Allahabad visit Kashi during Shrawan.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/lucknow/women-kanwariyas-surge-in-varanasi/story-CgCyqOZ1AVcQdcYNcXyR8O.html
LikeLike
Voldemort
October 11, 2018
Vcrs: *Yes, one could be politically right but sometimes it is considered basic decency to respect a scared house that has been there for centuries *
The fact that something has been there for centuries doesn’t make it right or place it on a pedestal. Moreover, when this practise hasn’t even been there for centuries, what are we talking about?
LikeLiked by 4 people
Vidhya M
October 11, 2018
My daughters study in a Govt Aided Girls school with a huge campus & good facilities. So is the school (and the Govt) discriminating against the boys of my area by denying them admission? Infact the only other school in the vicinity, with comparable infrastructure & fees is again a convent for girls. Even these schools used to take in boys in their KG classes a few decades back, but changed their policy later.
There are many such cases of “discrimination”. In IT company drops, a lady cannot be dropped last – so a male employee has to forego his privilege of getting down at his location & instead take a detour. Our project proposal was rejected by the Clients as they felt an all-female team cannot run uninterruptedly (yes, this was the reason given). In Redbus a guy cannot book a seat next to a lady. Men wearing chappals & lungi not allowed in pubs. Foreigners are charged double the entry fee in all places of heritage in India. Can we really have an equal world?
I do understand the point in challenging status-quo – that is the only way to move forward. But when a decision like this elicits so much opposition from the primary stakeholders (i e Hindu women who are religious), why push it with fervour? And unlike other policies, a woman who isnt allowed in Sabarimalai is not going to face dire consequences or social rejection. Then why?! When we accept dress code, code of conduct, language code in all our institutions, why expect a free-pass in Sabarimalai alone?
(Sabarimalai is how it is pronounced in Tamizh)
(For those bringing in caste, in caste defying judgements – the oppressed class will also be stakeholders & the decision will be welcomed wholeheartedly by them, though it may elicit opposition from the rest. However in this case, the primary stakeholders are Hindu religious women – the ones who would be potentially undertaking the pilgrimage.)
LikeLiked by 2 people
sanjana
October 11, 2018
Devaswom commissioner N Vasu also distanced from the stand taken by the counsel in the court. “The court is yet to hear the new board. We will have a meeting soon and take an appropriate decision,” he said.
Earlier, the top court had criticised the state government saying it had changed its position four times. Before that, the Congress-led United Democratic Front (UDF) regime had supported the status quo.
Senior counsel Abhishek Manu Singhvi, appearing for the temple board, said the basis of the temple practice was related to the celibate form of the deity, “naishtika brahamchari” (eternal celibate).
He said women of procreating age can’t be permitted because they can’t observe the 41-day penance before the pilgrimage. He said if the devotees believe in the in the deity of Sabarimala (Lord Ayyappa), they must respect the tradition of the temple and observe its practices.
Pilgrimage to Sabarimala situated in Western Ghats mountain ranges in Pathanamthitta district is unique in many ways. A devotee has to observe 41 days’ fast abstaining from all worldly pleasures followed by a rigorous trek through forests. Lord Ayyappa’s favourite disciple is a Muslim saint ‘Vavar Swami’ and devotees will have to worship first at his mosque before proceeding to the hilltop.
Women of productive age are allowed only till Pambha, the base river camp before a 5-km arduous trek to the hill shrine begins. Women cops are employed in Pambha in large numbers to screen devotees. If they become suspicious, women devotees will have to furnish proof to verify their age.
The restriction on women was first challenged in Kerala High Court which ruled in 1991 that it was part of an age-old tradition and not discriminatory under Constitution.
In 2006 the Indian Young Lawyers Association had filed a PIL in Supreme Court challenging the temple practice saying it was discriminatory in nature and against gender justice. The contentious issue is pending before the court for 12 years.
Last year a section of women devotees had started a campaign on social media called “Can wait till 50.” Soon it turned a battle between “can wait” and “can’t wait.”
“Can wait” campaign was launched by four women saying they were ready to wait till they attain 50 years to enter the temple. They blamed a section of non-believers and atheists for raking up a controversy.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/sabarimala-board-may-support-entry-to-temple-for-women-of-all-ages/story-zd8sqiBPqdyCoSQQFYcW8O.html
LikeLike
MKP
October 11, 2018
Voldemort-apart from Mr N S Madhavan’s tweets on these ‘chorunnu’ visits, do we have any other proof to the claim that woman devotees used to visit Sabarimala? Even these chorunnu visits,visits by women of royal family & visit by women IAS officials to discharge their duties seem more like exceptions than a common practise.I am ready to stand corrected but has there been any instance of women devotees in hordes visiting the Sabarimala temple? Technically one should be following the 41-day abstinence period to go to Sabarimala & should walk all the way. But not many follow do either. That doesn’t mean that the underlying belief would/should change just because a few don’t follow them.
Hindu temples are not same everywhere. Each one has a belief, a unique story, a unique tradition behind it & those visiting the temples are expected to follow the belief-however illogical or irrational that seems. The Aatukaal temple where only women do the yearly ponkala is with the belief that that’s what the primary deity of Aatukal Devi likes-will the men claim to be discriminated there?Or shall we exclaim why on earth the Devi cannot eat food cooked by men?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rajesh
October 11, 2018
Sorry if you find this too long.
Until early 1950’s, in the beginning of every Malayalam month, women (mostly only those around present Pathanamthitta dist – as it was not an easy place to reach until the 80’s) used to visit Sabarimala, especailly for the ‘choroonu’ ceremony (first feeding of rice to a baby – upper caste families prefer it in temple) ..
None other than Mr. TKA Nair (PA to xPM Manmohan Singh and ex Chief Sec in Punjab instrumental in curbing the Terrorism in the state) has clearly clarified this that even his choroonu was done in Sabarimala, in the lap of his mother in ’37. A in his name stands for Ayyappankutty, child of Ayyappa.
The women’s entry was unofficially banned only in early 50’s (thanks to concerns raised by Pandalam royal family and preists) and legally banned by Kerala HC only in 1972. Even the statements given by the ones who opposed the entry, in SC, did confirm this.
So its not a ‘centuries’OLD tradition.
Another so called age old tradition (according to believers) is the song Harivarasanam used as the wake up call for the deity. This song was composed only in ’55 by Devarajan master
I have so many friends checking from N.India and abroad wondering why ‘most’ Kerala women dont want this entry?– I can assure you, those women in those photographs (of streets filled with women) are more than 90% formed by Nair women. (In Kerala, Nairs are just below Brahmins in caste hierarchy and the biggest supporters of Brahminism) They are there simply because of the compelling organisational power/orders of the communal organisation NSS. When the local NSS office sends their people to every Nair house and ask to come for a procession, most Nairs oblige. My mother is not well after a stroke. If not she would have gone for that as well. These kind of compelling ‘requests’ from NSS to every Nair household seems to be a feature of the last decade. I dont remember my mother ever going for such communal processions before. But in the last decade, till she got sick, she went for all of them, even if she don always understand what it is for. I have never tried to stop her, but have always said my opinion to her.
Just saying that all those processions are politically organised by Nair and Brahmin organisations, especially the former. and they don’t represent all of Kerala, after all Nairs hardly constitute 14% of the population.
Respect to all those Nair women who chose not to go, I do know few.
It is such a pity that Nairs are going back to the pre 50 era when they were like slaves of Brahmins. While the formation of the NSS (Nair Service Society) introduced many Brahministic principles(1) into the caste, its founder also wanted to stop his caste from being slaves of Brahmins (2). So its terrible that these days Nairs are the biggest supporters for Brahminism. The Pandalam royal family and the Thantri – priest family – of Sabarimala can make Nairs dance to their tune.
(1) Nair women necessarily didnt had to do any marriage. She could welcome a man into her home and say good bye to him with a simple gesture of placing his ‘thamboolam’ (box with betel nuts arecanut etc which every proud man would carry those days) on the door step. Man had to just accept and walk away from the home, no questions asked. This custom existed as late as Independance days!
(2)Unless he belonged to the extreme minority poor Brahmin, a Brahmin man could just walk into any Nair home, give a piece of Dhothi (women’s) and could have an affair with her. But in public life even Nairs had to keep a specific distance away from Brahmins:)
(My mothers grand mother had 3 ‘husbands’, one of them a Brahmin)
In 1987 when Roop Kanwar was forced into Sati, there were huge processions in Rajasthan too by upper caste women supporting the act. Upper caste women would go out for protests only when some horrible anti woman tradition in their religion is challenged, thanks to their subservience to patriarchy.
Nairs forget that even they didnt had the right to wear a blouse in front of Brahmins or in public or while visiting a temple as late as first quarter of 20th C. And they got all these rights, because of the courage of women from Channar caste (kind of untouchables for Nairs).
So when they speak about keeping traditions, I wonder would they also agree to go back to those days of not being able to wear blouse or not even able to object a Brahmin knocking on her door.
Nobody has any problem when more than 75% of Malayali men visiting Sabraimala dont observe the 41 day penance at all. I know so many people who just start it 1 or 2 days before. I have friends who visit the temple the first of every month without any penance at all. If that tradition can be broken why cant this? Oh ok Women has to bear the sole responsibility of saving culture, may be!!!
I feel ashamed of my state where educated women protest an order which only means equality for women. There are women who want to go to the temple, let them visit.
There are those, inspite of education, who still believes they are impure because of menstruation (and all those frightening stories they have heard from childhood) they should keep away from the temple, let them not go.
I just wish, they didnt go to the streets for this, may be for something else of matter in daily life.
RSS BJP and NSS have just smelt gold in Kerala. This was a boon they got at the right moment and they will ensure the votes of all these Nair women – which normally was split between Congress and BJP – would go for them. Possibly couple of Parliament seats. That’s all they want, not the sanctity of Lord !!!
At the same time, if you are a woman who care for nature, its better to keep away from Sabarimala, the most polluted forest region anywhere in the world, causing also the most pollution to a river from a single source!
:- Am sorry Mr. Rangan for coming back here with a comment. After being called a troll, I had never commented here, but since this ain’t a movie subject I thought I would. Hope you are not offended. Take Care
LikeLiked by 10 people
Rocky
October 11, 2018
I agree with Anjali George that most North Indians are a bit detached from the Sabrimala issue. Her twitter thread below is very interesting –
LikeLike
cromagnon
October 11, 2018
A ‘group’ of people are denied entry to a place of worship. Various reasons are put forth, it is mandated in the scriptures, they are not ‘pure’, their presence would defile the place and bring the wrath of the gods, we cannot ‘mix’ with them, they have other places they can visit, why force us to do something against our traditions, so on and so forth. A social movement tries to bring in change and ultimately laws are enacted to codify that barring these people is illegal. The entry of ‘untouchables’ and ‘oppressed classes’ to places of worship happened not due to the magnanimity of the oppressors but due to social awakening and changes in law.
I feel we can substitute women in place of dalit and the scenario would be the same, just the time and place are different.
It is time that women are treated as equal citizens and physiological processes like menstruation are not considered as taboo. Of course if some pious women think they wouldn’t want to break traditions, they can stay at home, why bar others from visiting. As far as the argument that men can’t control their raging hormones, the lesser said the better.
Before our resident islamaphobe brotherdude jumps on me asking ‘what about mosques?’ I would like to clarify that I don’t give a damn if it’s a mosque, temple or church. People need to be treated fairly and with respect.
LikeLiked by 5 people
Rajesh
October 11, 2018
Oh, I forgot to mention something.. The temple in Sabarimala was originally called Sri Dharma Shaasta temple. Dharma Shaasta and Ayyappa are different according to myths. Its the latter who is more Brahmachaari.
In fact, the Travancore Devasom Board – who has the rights of the temple and who opposed the entry in SC- changed the name to Ayyappa temple only recently as a part of its effort to give impetus to the Ban arguement.
LikeLiked by 1 person
krishna prasad
October 11, 2018
I think most have now already read about, there being more than one temple in Kerala itself that doesn’t allow men. Will a case be filed for that next? Should every thing be viewed as a man – woman conflict?. It is also common in northern parts of India where anyone can enter the sanctum and touch the deity, whereas in southern parts it is not the case in most of the temples. So will a case be filed for that next? Tradition means what is being followed for reasonable no of years. Now what is reasonable is obviously subjective. Maybe we can respect traditions a bit. I am neither for allowing not disallowing anyone anywhere. I personally wouldn’t care a hoot if a woman became the next pope( btw can she and if can will she be allowed to). Where something is meant for women/ men only, and it’s reasonable one can happily step away. Can’t say ultimate beneficiaries will b the women in this case. Looks more like a token victory.
LikeLike
Varsha
October 11, 2018
The Supreme Court case and verdict on the Sabarimala issue has woken up an age-old demon, namely the treatment of menstruation as unclean(theettu) and unholy. The issue, thus, is bigger than just the entry into one temple in Kerala. People are giving various other reasons now, but IMO, menstruation seems to be the key. The age restriction(10 to 50 yr old) on women to visit Sabarimala also suggests the same. There is a 41-day fasting period to be undertaken before visiting Sabarimala. I guess the logic is that a woman should not fast during period, and how does one fast for 41 days without mentruating! I personally do not think menstruation is unclean(It’s a natural body cycle!), but for the people who are opposing the verdict, the fear could be centered more on what will happen to the practice of women not going to temples during menses, if the verdict comes to stand.
LikeLiked by 6 people
Purple Sky
October 11, 2018
Nowadays what percentage of people take fasting for 41 days? It is mostly express fasting of one week or so…
LikeLike
Pradeep CK
October 11, 2018
Just as I would not expect a film review of mine to equal Brangan’s in depth, variety, understanding of technique or nuance; It is presumptuous of me (and most here) to comment authoritatively on this topic, since our knowledge of religion, faith, hinduism, history, social norms, anthropology and the evolution of temple architecture and praying norms is minimal.
So most people decide from the gut and then justify it with scientific terms and logic. The #wait camp says that hinduism does not consider male and female to be identical, that it considers them more complementary like ying and yang, that there are many temples where men are not allowed, that a different sort of energy is emitted in a “male” temple, and another in a “female” temple, that lord Ayyapa had evinced a desire to stay in a female-free environment, that the temple architecture creates an “agama” (some sort of force which is inimical to females), that women would suffer serious harm in such an environment, that only non religious women would like to visit Sabarimala, and that the true devotee would prefer to wait.
The other camp mentions that a ban implies that women are inferior, that they are “unclean”, that an omnipotent god would not be swayed by feminine beauty, that there is no scientific evidence of magnetic or other forces, that a deeply entrenched patriarchy made the rules, and that the choice should that be of the women.
My religious orientation is more agnostic than religious or atheist, so that bias would percolate into my thinking, but here goes anyway.
Before coming to a decision, Firstly we need to first determine if the origin of the ban is scientific, or for the protection of women, or a basic tenet of hinduism, or a patriarchal practice that has evolved into a monster.
Secondly, hinduism is different from other religions. There is no single god, no single text, no sermon given to a prophet. It is a philosophy and a set of practices. The philosophy (crudely) essentially says that everything has god inside (thoonilum thurumbilum), that the ways to nirvana (non existence, not god) are infinite and you can approach through bhakti, or jnana, or the graveyard (the aghoris) or via sex (tantra).
Given this philosophy, how can hinduism deny anybody from praying anywhere? The current brouhaha makes me think that the reaction to abolition of Sati, or the allowing of entry of “lower” castes into temples may have triggered a similar reaction at those times.
Also, why the mass reaction to the decision? Why such a strong reaction? If everyone is concerned about the health of the women who would undertake such a dangerous expedition, why are we not banning smoking, or mobile phones (whose danger is proved scientifically). Why not just let a lakh women visit sabarimala every year and monitor them closely for cancer, paralysis, ischemia, STDs, fertility problems and birth defects?
I am sure that just the thought of a lakh women entering sabarimala makes the mind flinch. Why such a reaction? Are we concerned for the women, or does the mind recoil at the thought? What are we afraid of? Is the mingling of the sexes dangerous? Would the ayyappas (devotees) celibacy waver? Or have we come to think of this as a men’s club, or a men’s sanctuary, that men like the tiger and the cheetah are losing their supremacy and we are entering the last sanctuary of theirs?
I see a lot of videos of protests. Almost half of them are women, but of a certain age. I do not see girls in theirs teens and 20s or early 30s protesting, it is mostly 40s and above… Does it tell us something?
LikeLiked by 9 people
Vrcs
October 11, 2018
@voldemort.
I am not coming at the historical angle at all. Yeah may be these customs didn’t exist for that long. I believe that women should definitely have entry to all public places. But what if a person decided that he or she would not allow women to enter their house. Can the SC force them to make women enter. It’s their private property and who should enter depends solely on them. Ideally, we can point and say hey it’s wrong, one should not discriminate. But we should also respect the privacy of that individual. Now coming to temples. First of alI don’t think one can consider temples to be public spaces. Like you walk in public with slippers. But when you enter temple we remove our slippers right. Why? According to this logic we should question that also. And make that all temples should allow footwear. God is definitely not gonna be upset if you wear sandals or not. Leave that, how you dress when you are at your home and when you go to a friend’s home or to work varies. Point is we all censor ourselves to varying extent. That is the way we live in this society.
And now to sabarimala, I feel a bunch of women or feminists if I must say decided their right is being denied and they made this SC judgement happen. This whole thing for me feels like nitpicking. By this logic one should challenge attukal pongala that happens every year and lakhs of women participate and not men. Now should one file a case and make that men should also be able to do pongala ?
I don’t feel this is any sort of empowerment, it’s just that a bunch of women who don’t believe in traditions of sabarimala ( if they had, they would not have filed the case in the first place ) wanted to show off, hey see we are politically right by stepping on the beliefs of several lakhs of other women. Like those clichéd first world tourists who come to India and complain hey this is such a backward third world country without understanding the fabric of this great nation.
LikeLike
sanjana
October 11, 2018
Kerala HC dismisses plea to allow women in mosques on pattern of Sabarimala verdict
The high court ruled that the petitioner, Bharatiya Hindu Mahasabha’s state president, had failed to submit evidence that Muslim women were not being allowed to enter mosques and if they felt they being discriminated against, they could move the court
LikeLike
sanjana
October 11, 2018
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/kerala-hc-dismisses-plea-to-allow-women-in-mosques-on-pattern-of-sabarimala-verdict/story-oJtz8F2ukZ3QYwIivbyQOJ.html
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 11, 2018
When I was a hotheaded pre-teen (surprise! 🙂 ), I used to question my grandmother – ‘Why can’t I go to Sabarimala?’ Ammamma explained the legend to me. I wasn’t convinced. So she asked me, ‘Do you really want to go?’ I thought about it a bit, and then said, ‘Not really.’ Why are you arguing then, she asked. ‘Because if I did want to go, I should be allowed to,’ I said. She smiled.
Now that I can, I don’t want to. Not only because I’m pretty much an agnostic-veering-on-the-atheist, but also because, when you’re steeped in that culture and tradition and upbringing, it is very hard to shake off its shackles. If I were to go, it would only be to make a point. And that, to me, is no reason to visit a place of worship, especially when I don’t believe in the deity. That, to me, would be the highest form of hypocrisy, and an insult to those who truly believe in him/her.
That said, do I want to stop others from going? No. It’s a place of worship, where God ostensibly lives. Who am I to say who should go visit him, and who shouldn’t? Insert any other group instead of ‘women’ and I wonder if people would be quite as sanguine about it.
Our temples, according to tradition, didn’t allow people of a lower caste to enter. That tradition went out the window some time back, and good that it did. So obviously, some traditions can – and should – be broken.
What others have said above about the ban on women being relatively recent is very true. So, to all the women who believe in this myth about women of menstruating age not visiting Sabarimala, then please continue to not go.
The Supreme Court’s decision isn’t forcing anyone to go to Sabarimala. It is only saying that if they wish to go, they shouldn’t be denied access.
And that, I think, is a good thing.
LikeLiked by 10 people
sanjana
October 11, 2018
Most of us who are commenting here are not interested to go to Sabarimala. Those who are interested are very few. Atleast on this thread. But most of us like to watch some recent movie now or later. If there is god, god must be smiling at us! Why god? I am also smiling at myself!
Rajesh said something which is true. Care for the environment of Sabarimala which is being polluted.
LikeLike
Srinivas R
October 11, 2018
@Rajesh – thanks for the insights. So something that started in 50’s has been made to be the eternal truth? Even more reason to support the SC judgement.
“Technically one should be following the 41-day abstinence period to go to Sabarimala & should walk all the way. But not many follow do either. ” – I went to Sabarimala thrice. The first time I fasted for 41 days, but the second and third time, I fasted only for 3 days and it is a fairly common practice. I know many people who went with 1 day fasting. So extending that logic, anyone is eligible to go on a pilgrimage to Sabarimalai.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Anu Warrier
October 11, 2018
vrcs, the attukal pongala is a festival. Sabarimala is a temple. You’re comparing apples to oranges.
Again, women who believe in the Sabarimala ethos need not go – no one is forcing them to; if others believe otherwise, that’s their right to do so. If the people who want to go forced everyone to follow their belief, that would be wrong too. But the Court’s decision allows women the right to choose. And that’s important.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Vrcs
October 11, 2018
I don’t think I can dumb this down even more.
Imagine if Swami Ayyapan is a living person considered as god by many.
He has his home in top of sabarimala, lakhs of devotees visit his home, seek his blessings. And he just declares he wouldn’t allow mensturating women to enter his house. Then what the heck would SC or these feminists do? It’s his personal property. By trying to break enter his house , it’s not empowerment, it would be invasion of his privacy.
Question is would you go to an uninvited party just to prove you can be there? What are you really trying to achieve by that?
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 11, 2018
But I can’t imagine Ayyappa as a living entity. If the house of God is truly open to everyone as all religions claim, then he shouldn’t be stopping anyone from coming in. Right?
The ban on women’s entry into the temple came about in 1991. Until then, women could enter the temple. So what happened in 1991 that cause Ayyappa to insist that women couldn’t enter his abode? Some court decided that; today, another court decided otherwise.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Karthik
October 11, 2018
Mr.Baradwaj Rangan, I think off the topic threads will ruin the sanctity of this site, please stick with cinema and it’s dialectics assuming if that is the purpose of this place.
LikeLike
Varsha
October 11, 2018
Purple Sky: That could be, but I am talking about why the ban could have come in the first place. The same goes for menstruation too! There were no sanitary napkins in old days, so it may have made sense then to restrict women on those days. Today, it does not seem prudent to do the same.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 11, 2018
Also, how the devil is anyone to know if the woman is menstruating or not?
Two, what if these women who do want to visit Sabarimala go when they are not menstruating? Contrary to belief, women are not constantly menstruating 24/7 from the ages of 10-50.
Three, it is not as if all the men who go keep the 41-day fast. Only the men with the Irumudikettu can climb the pathinettam padi. Others go through a door on the side of the temple. Surely, the women can enter there as well?
Or are only men allowed to abuse the ‘tradition’ that says that to go to Sabarimala, you have to keep the 41-day celibacy fast as well as follow the rules scrupulously?
LikeLiked by 10 people
Madan
October 11, 2018
Vrcs: Swami Ayappan is NOT a living person, though, and his mythology is propagated by living and mostly male persons. If religion was democratic, this wouldn’t have to be so messy. Had menstruating women been consulted in formulating such a rule, there would be some fairness to it. But no, it’s always a select few know it alls who make up the rules as they go along. And then they cry about their private rights being taken away. Well duh if it’s private don’t indoctrinate people about the importance of Sabarimala. Have the guts to refuse visitors and, yes, donations. Can’t have the cake and eat it too.
LikeLiked by 6 people
varshaganesh
October 11, 2018
Vrcs – The women who want to visit Sabarimala do not believe that Swami Ayyapan has barred them from seeing him. They believe it is a group of people who talk on behalf of Him (maybe including you?) who are barring them. The verdict legally removes the obstacles that this particular group put up. If it is truly His home, maybe the people who want to visit him wholeheartedly believe that He will welcome them with open hands. Who are you or me to say He will or will not? That`s between Swami Ayyapan and the person who visits him.
LikeLiked by 7 people
brangan
October 11, 2018
Karthik: On the contrary. I think it’s better this way — as the cinema threads remain uncluttered. Otherwise, these discussions will spill over there…
This way, you can just choose to avoid the thread altogether.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Voldemort
October 11, 2018
Varshaganesh : The women who want to visit Sabarimala do not believe that Swami Ayyapan has barred them from seeing him. They believe it is a group of people who talk on behalf of Him (maybe including you?) who are barring them. The verdict legally removes the obstacles that this particular group put up. If it is truly His home, maybe the people who want to visit him wholeheartedly believe that He will welcome them with open hands. Who are you or me to say He will or will not? That`s between Swami Ayyapan and the person who visits him.
Nailhead! I will visit the temple and if God doesn’t like it, let God punish me for that. It’s between God and me. I wouldn’t want anyone telling me that this is what God wants you to do, as long as it isn’t detrimental to the interests of that person or anyone else.
LikeLiked by 5 people
Voldemort
October 11, 2018
Krishna Prasad : I think most have now already read about, there being more than one temple in Kerala itself that doesn’t allow men. Will a case be filed for that next? Should every thing be viewed as a man – woman conflict?
If anyone does file a case for it next, I and the people supporting this verdict would definitely support that too. This is not about a man – woman conflict at all, this is about letting a person who wants to worship a God do so, and not stopping that person because of his/her gender. If a man wants to enter a woman-only temple, he should be allowed to. No one should stop him. That’s about it.
It is also common in northern parts of India where anyone can enter the sanctum and touch the deity, whereas in southern parts it is not the case in most of the temples. So will a case be filed for that next?
But how is touching or abstaining from touching a deity comparable with restricting a person into a place? Touching the deity or worshipping it from a distance is each person’s decision. But telling someone not to enter a temple is not decision. It’s prejudice.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Voldemort
October 11, 2018
MKP : Even these chorunnu visits,visits by women of royal family & visit by women IAS officials to discharge their duties seem more like exceptions than a common practise.
Right. But if an IAS woman can go inside the temple, albeit not for worship, why can’t an ordinary woman go? Same for the royals.
I am ready to stand corrected but has there been any instance of women devotees in hordes visiting the Sabarimala temple?
Afaik, no. After this verdict, initially, for the first few years, there won’t be a lot of women going. One in a hundred, if I may. As days go on, the count will increase, just like in the example sanjana pointed. A decade or so later, probably, there will be as many women as there are men in the temple. A hundred years later, our granddaughters and great granddaughters will go visit these temples without any reservations just like they do to any other temple, and they will be astonished when they hear that women were denied entry to the temple, not unlike how we now look at the age old practises of not allowing women outside the house, etc today.
Technically one should be following the 41-day abstinence period to go to Sabarimala & should walk all the way.
Like others have pointed out, a lot of people don’t follow these rules nowadays. Infact, I know of people who have gone without fasting at all. They just abstain from consuming meat, but they do not fast or refrain from shaving.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Vrcs
October 11, 2018
@varshaganesh
I understand when you say who am I to say who will swami ayyapan wants to see. Then just turn the mirror and look it from the other side. Who are you or supreme court to destroy the belief of my own sister, my own mother, aunts and hundreds of women who have stood up in the streets of Trivandrum because what they believed and have followed through out their life. On one fine day is told to be a bad thing. They are also legitimate believers of ayyapan right. Who are you or me to say what is right and what is wrong.
LikeLike
Voldemort
October 11, 2018
Vrcs : Like you walk in public with slippers. But when you enter temple we remove our slippers right. Why? According to this logic we should question that also. And make that all temples should allow footwear.
Not wearing footwear in a temple is not trampling upon a person’s right. But stopping a certain section of the society from going inside a place is. Tell me, is telling someone not to wear footwear inside a temple/church/mosque being prejudicial to that person? Is it an act of oppression? Is it unjust? But denying entry is prejudicial, oppressive and unjust. The two just can’t be compared.
I don’t feel this is any sort of empowerment
Sorry that you don’t. But it IS empowerment. Because empowerment is having the freedom and the power to do/not do something, out of my own free will, without someone else deciding it for me and shoving it down my throat. I want to go visit Sabarimala, I should. That’s empowerment. Or I don’t want to. Okay. I shouldn’t. That’s all.
it’s just that a bunch of women who don’t believe in traditions of sabarimala ( if they had, they would not have filed the case in the first place )
Just one thing. Asking to go worship a God is not believing in him?
LikeLiked by 2 people
Meera Corera
October 11, 2018
BR sir am loving this OTT haunt. Of course on this particular topic am leaning towards Anu Warrier and Rahini who express my thoughts more eloquently, I think this thread should go on. It is a great forum to discuss, dissect and possible influence people on topics which may or may not be about cinema. That is a good thing only.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Vrcs
October 11, 2018
All I am saying is in search of political correctness, the feeling of hundreds of women and men have been hurt. For which they are not to be blamed. They genuinely believed in the traditions and beliefs of ayyapan. And one day a section of society points fingers at them and says, you are regressive, you disrespect women. From my own family, I have seen my sisters who are strong independent and liberal in thoughts who also believe strongly in traditions. Why does it has to be black and white. What about those in between who believe in equality and still want certain traditions to continue. TBH, the only reason I have written so much here is I have listened to the discussion and rantings of women across my extended family. To be in their place, to be robbed of something they believed all through their life and told that those traditions doesn’t exist anymore is a hard thing to go through. Change is the order of nature. But when you are jumping for change, just look and listen to those people you are overstepping, respect their feelings, respect why they belive in certain traditions. World is not just black and white. I rest my case.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Kay
October 11, 2018
Vrcs: “Imagine if Swami Ayyapan is a living person considered as god by many.
He has his home in top of sabarimala, lakhs of devotees visit his home, seek his blessings. And he just declares he wouldn’t allow mensturating women to enter his house. Then what the heck would SC or these feminists do? It’s his personal property. By trying to break enter his house , it’s not empowerment, it would be invasion of his privacy”
Well, Ayyappan is not a living person, is he? It’s not his private property. He has not decided that women shouldn’t enter.
Let me dumb it down for you
Nobody is forcing women to go. At the same time, nobody has the right to prevent those who want to go.
LikeLiked by 1 person
praneshp
October 11, 2018
Thanks Rangan, these posts are a great idea. I can just read your comments from the feed, and the other discussions (will hopefully) remain cinema-centric.
But I struggle to see how we will get a new Rahman/Vairamuthu album and not discuss V.
LikeLiked by 2 people
shaviswa
October 11, 2018
The only reason why some women want to go to Sabarimalai is because they are not allowed to do so by tradition. It is not because they believe in Ayyappan. If they did, they will not be demanding this “right”
The fact is, everyone can go to the temple. The belief is you are blessed only if you follow the rigorous 40 day vratham. There are many men who violate those rules. And they still go. Are they blessed by Ayyappan?
Only Ayyappan can answer the above question. 🙂
LikeLike
Ivan Bliminse
October 11, 2018
I am not a lawyer / constitutional expert, so I am not going to be talking about the various sections and quoting legal precedence etc., here. Also, I am on 3 hour train journey and have work to do (which I really do not want to do!), so I will just disappear after hitting submit and never follow up. I will be a silent lurker for BR’s reviews as always.
Post at your own peril.
The argument of Public vs Private?
TL; DR – Private Property Rights. A secular state taking over the temple and claiming it as public property is fundamentally flawed.
Public is simply not everything which others can view. It is rather a set of nimble social conventions about what is acceptable and appropriate. For example, public photography is allowed and legal in most countries. If you are in a park, playing with your cute as a button kid, there is absolutely no legal hassles if someone were to take a photo. By law, there is not one thing that you can do even though the scenario described above is strictly private (i.e., you and your child who is under your care. A kid who is not old enough to vote, who is not old enough to be treated as an adult and therefore consent doesn’t really apply here). The only thing that you can do is request that they do not take a photo but you cannot stop him / her from taking the pictures. Sure, you can shield your kid, but that is all you can do. Now, add a friend to that equation. You and your kid pose for a photo and your friend takes the photo, again there is nothing that prevents the other party from standing next to your friend or even a little bit behind and take the photo. Legally, both the stranger as well as your friend have the exact same rights when you are at a park.
Now, on the other hand you can restrict the stranger from entering your kid’s birthday celebrations which you are conducting inside your home. However, you cannot stop them from taking photos of the celebrations through your window or get a drone and live stream the entire thing to the world. It is “probably” not illegal, viewing from the street is treated as public (if they decide to sell it, then it is a whole different thing).
Now, apply this in context of a Hindu temple wherein, there is a procession. You, as an individual cannot go into the sanctum-sanctorum of the temple but the உற்சவ மூர்த்தி who is out on procession can be visited by all people, including non-Hindus up close. If you are not a Hindu, then you may not be allowed inside the temple but if you are out on the streets, then nothing prevents you from standing or even partaking in the procession. Inside the temple even if they are state controlled, you are bound by the rules of the temple, i.e., his/her place of residence. The properties, managed by the trustees, are treated as though they are properties of the presiding deity.
His place of residence; His rules. The private property rights argument.
The government didn’t construct the property, they only act as administrators for the “benefit” of the society.
The argument of discrimination
TL:DR – The Colorado bakery which refused to make a wedding cake for a gay couple.
I simply fail to see how this is a discrimination. Ever been to B & B in Chennai or a pub for Christmas / New Year celebrations in the UK or USA? They had (have?) a dress code, closed shoes for men who should be in trousers. Why have a dress code if not for preventing people from a certain social strata from entering? So, a Durai Ayya (Sandakozhi) or a Periya Thevar (Thevar Magan) cannot go in, even though they belong to the affluent class and can surely afford to pay for the drinks. Periya Thevar maybe set in his ways and he may not be comfortable in full trousers, but why should that be a reason to prevent him from seeing Shakthi and Bhanu celebrating (in a parallel world) with a glass of Chivas Reagal 24 at Bike and Barrel. Esaki should also not be prevented from joining them. Remember, Shakthi is footing the bill or sharing the bill with Bhanu, so the class discrimination is also not valid.
The pub didn’t force Periya Thevar from having a drink, they simply exercise their right to decide who to accept as a customer. Even if you claim (and rightly so!) that B & B is being classist and discriminatory, the government or court cannot and must not intervene in their functioning. Classist, misogynist and bigoted people should be allowed to run their private premises as they see fit. Call them out, mock them, make it financially unviable for them to do so – all of which are your rights, but you must not involve the government or the court nor should the government or court intervene in their functioning.
The argument of religious practices
TL;DR – A temple is not a community centre.
As opposed to other religions, a Hindu temple (I do not know much about Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, so alter your reading meter accordingly) is simply not a place of congregation of people to pray to their God, who lives up in the heaven. And, the God is also not one (true) God. You can have a Parthasarathy temple in Triplicane with its own customs which are entirely different from Jagannath in Puri. The உற்சவம் for Parthasarathy temple are not the same as that for Jagannath or for that matter at Srirangam.
In Srirangam temple, Ranganayaki doesn’t come out of the temple EVER. Sort of the padi-thaanda-pathinni. Did you say regressive? Sure. Why is a derivative Gayatri Mantram for every diety written describing the attributes, qualities of that diety and not the one on Mahalakshmi which is written as though her only qualification is that of being Mahavishnu’s “paththini”? Again, did you say it is regressive? Sure.
Compare that with the Nachiyaarkoil temple, a temple and a town named after Nachiyaar (no, not Bala’s movie which I regard was his weakest!) where She gets the first priority in everything, from receiving the prasadam to being the first to step out. Narayoor Nambi follows the Nachiyar during உற்சவம் / புறப்பாடு. Forget equal rights, here it is the woman leading the show! He is a literally a house husband. In fact, in the sanctum sanctorum the main Lord is actually to the side, when viewed from the last steps you will not even see Narayoor Nambi, you will only see the Nachiyaar!
Hang on, a couple of paragraphs ago it was all “Regressive?” and now you are saying the Lord, the all powerful male God, is a house husband, i.e., வூட்டோட மாப்பிள்ளை? Welcome to the “not viewed from the prism of Abrahamic religion” world.
An Ayappa temple in Vadapalani can allow everybody but the Sabarimala temple need not.
You cannot simply say, everybody is allowed in one temple and therefore they should be allowed in the other one too. That argument will work for a Church but not for the temples.
Train ride about to end. As always, remember https://keysleft.com so use wisely.
I am off to beer and pizza!
LikeLiked by 2 people
Swati
October 12, 2018
It would be greater achievement if all muslim women could go to mosque and offer namaz. Even in USA, the have to go into separate rooms. Are the men so bad that they cannot control themselves during prayers? There are only three of four temples where women do not go. How many mosques are there where women cannot go. Maybe we should start a separate thread on it!! Currently my Iranian sisters are fighting very bravely to get rid of hijabs/niquabs and singing in public. These need to encouraged and celebrated in OTT threads, instead of bringing up non-issues such as sabrimala or shanti temple. The person who filed complaint was not even a hindu!! Going or not going to Sabrimala is not that big a deal of an issue that we are facing in the world or in India right now!
LikeLike
Honest Raj
October 12, 2018
BR: Thank you, your honour! Nice finishing touch, btw 🙂
LikeLike
Siva
October 12, 2018
No one personally knows God. No one can claim to know what God wants or does not want. Those who do so are phony. Places of worship were created by humans, claiming there is a secure line (sometimes a paid connection) there where you can directly bribe God to procure your wishes. Somewhere along the line, a group of humans started claiming that the secure line is not open to a another group of humans. Bullshit. If you decide to go mental, at least have the decency to not restrict someone else from wanting to go mental.
LikeLike
KP
October 12, 2018
“Not to mention Muslim places of worship.” I think this is more a Indian thing. Its permitted but usually a separate entrance or at the back rows in the same hall.
LikeLike
Kay
October 12, 2018
Voldemort – absolutely love all your comments!
To sum it up
– Those who want to wait till 50, please do so
– Those who want to stick to tradition, let us remind you that this particular tradition is just few decades old, hence it’s not really a tradition. Probably you should consider sticking to the actual tradition which was allowing everyone
– Menstruation – I’m not even getting into that topic. Enough has been said.
– Finally, if someone believes in Ayyappan and wants to visit Sabaramalai to worship him, pleas don’t cite your invalid arguments and prevent them.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Vrcs
October 12, 2018
A secular state taking over the temple and claiming it as public property is fundamentally flawed
@Ivan. A big shout out to you, I have been trying to say exactly this. But commenters here are rather happy nitpicking points from my statements and not seeing the whole argument.
Every temple has their own customs, to visit the Pope in Vatican it’s in the official rule book that women should cover their shoulders, should not wear tank tops or shorts, only a fool would believe that the world out their is for taking simply, one has to work with the existing laws, traditions, beliefs, and many times trust to earn entry to places and there could be many more places in the world that a common man may never be able to see. Will I ever get to sleep in rasthrapathi bhavan, will I ever get to stay in white house, will I ever get to visit RA &W head quarters, will I ever get to stay in Mannat SRKs home or even a random strangers home. Probably many of us might not.
Bottomline is temple should not be considered a public place, I believe it’s a private space, if you believe in the beliefs of that place go visit it, receive blessings, give donations or If you don’t believe in its tradition just leave it alone.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 12, 2018
Swati – let me correct some facts. Yes, the person who filed was not a Hindu. He was a Muslim lawyer. His petitioner, on behalf of whom he filed the brief, though, is a Hindu woman.
Two, regarding mosques – if Muslim women want to go through the main entrance and worship with their men, let them file a suit through a Hindu, Muslim, Sikh or Christian lawyer. I will support that as well. And I will support Iranian women who want to get rid of their naqab too. As I will Indian women who want to get rid of the ghoonghat. One doesn’t preclude the other. I’m sick of ‘What about Muslims?’ when the question is about Hindus and a certain practice in a certain temple.
I agree with vrcs about the belief of hundreds of women. I have them in my family as well. I will not say they are regressive for wanting to maintain the status quo. Beliefs don’t have reason. Faith doesn’t need one. Frankly speaking, my instinctual reaction was, ‘Why? If you believe in the Dharmashasta, why would you go? And if you don’t, then why do you want to go?’ But that’s not for me to know – each one’s faith and belief systems are different. Perhaps they aren’t brought up with those traditions that make women believe that they shouldn’t be going to Sabarimala.
So, much as I hate that vrcs’s and my female relatives’ beliefs are hurt, the point is no one anywhere says they have to visit Sabarimala before they are able to, according to their beliefs. They cannot – and should not – allow their beliefs to prevent someone else from expressing their own faith on their own terms.
LikeLiked by 7 people
sanjana
October 12, 2018
You should not visit.
I will.
Now you can.
I dont feel like visiting now.
Then why did you started the protest?
To help others who wanted to visit. To put an end to this ridiculous ban.
The highest court is supporting you.
They also said no to Jallikattu. Marina beach protests happened.
They also put restrictions on Govindas. But it was not obeyed.
Triple Talaaq is not fully accepted by the stakeholders.
I hope sabarimala verdict will be respected.
Let us wait and watch.
This is an imaginary dialoguebaazi.
LikeLike
Dora
October 12, 2018
Minor factoid: our kula Deivam (family deity) is Shasta – an avatar of Aiyyappa. In the temple that my family has worshipped for generations (in nellai district), he is depicted in idol form with his consorts Poorna and Pushkala.
LikeLike
Kay
October 12, 2018
Vrcs – one more point I missed to add. I’m not saying women who feel they should wait till 50 are regressive. And I won’t support anyone who says that. My only point is, as Warrior says, ”They cannot – and should not – allow their beliefs to prevent someone else from expressing their own faith on their own terms.”
LikeLiked by 2 people
Kay
October 12, 2018
Just wanted to share a personal experience. My parents’ Family deity is an amman. After I got married, I obviously had to disown my association with the Amman (on a lighter note) and my kula deivam now became Karuppar, who explicitly had rules that I shouldn’t enter the temple, I shouldn’t witness the goat sacrificing Pooja (not that I regret it), and if I don’t stick to those rules, I’ll vomit blood and my family will be affected. 🤷🏻♀️ I have ranted and raged but to no avail. So, I consider this verdict a small victory not only for me but for generations of women who will be free to practice their faith.
LikeLiked by 5 people
bala
October 12, 2018
BR, This OTT section is like “promotions” tab of gmail. It will remove the clutter from inbox, but will increase the overall noise. However, if you have to read each and every comment, i am not sure you will be able to scale well. My suggestion is, if you feel any comment is tangential, block the first comment. You don’t have to read the remaining 100.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Voldemort
October 12, 2018
Anu Warrior : So, much as I hate that vrcs’s and my female relatives’ beliefs are hurt, the point is no one anywhere says they have to visit Sabarimala before they are able to, according to their beliefs. They cannot – and should not – allow their beliefs to prevent someone else from expressing their own faith on their own terms
That sums up everything I wanted to say. Thanks. 🙂
Kay and Madan : Thank you!
LikeLiked by 2 people
Anuja Chandramouli
October 12, 2018
I have mixed feelings about this but can’t help thinking that despite the recent SC rulings on not just Sabarimala but Section 377, adultery as well, it will be a while before there is tangible change. I mean it is one thing to decriminalize homosexuality but quite another for a dude to openly date another dude, get married and have kids. It is the same with Sabarimala. It is sad but it is unlikely that women will feel safe about visiting. After all, dowry harassment, rape, molestation, stalking is against the law but that has not exactly deterred anyone from doing those things and getting away with it right?
That is the sad thing about our judicial system. We frame umpteen laws but nobody can be bothered with respecting the letter or the spirit of the law. What is the point then?
Wrote about this for TNIE:
https://anujachandramouli.blogspot.com/2018/10/an-inexpert-reaction-to-momentous.html?m=1
LikeLike
shaviswa
October 12, 2018
“but quite another for a dude to openly date another dude, get married and have kids.”
Scratching my head and wondering how this is even possible….
We are indeed in a weird world!
LikeLike
krishna prasad
October 12, 2018
@vrcs,Ivan. Exactly my thoughts. Also one can watch advocate Sai deepaks arguments. Excellently put across in simple words.
PS: we file cases, argue etc for these stuffs but I guess it will be equally fruitful if not more when we start doing the same for paying road tax for non existent roads, water tax for well …… n number of taxes for non existent benefits. I think the women of the house too will be a lot happier then and think of planning their trips to sabarimala.
LikeLike
Rahini David
October 12, 2018
shaviswa: Well ok, “adopt”. But surely, you did get what sort of tangible change Anuja was
talkingtyping about.LikeLike
Rahini David
October 12, 2018
If you are in a park, playing with your cute as a button kid, there is absolutely no legal hassles if someone were to take a photo. – Ivan Bliminse
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-legal-in-India-to-take-someones-photo-without-his-her-permission
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 12, 2018
@vrcs: “Bottomline is temple should not be considered a public place, I believe it’s a private space, if you believe in the beliefs of that place go visit it, receive blessings, give donations or If you don’t believe in its tradition just leave it alone.”
You made Excellent arguments, with one minor flaw (IMO). This is not a public vs private thingy. Do you consider work place a public or private? For long IBM had a rule for its employees that no tattoo marks in the body and one has to be in suit and tie. US courts could never force them to change it. There was a case of a Pizza company which had stick rules of no beard. When a lawsuit was filed, they won the case because the argument was that the perception among public is that the delivery person with a foot long beard is not clean and may be his beard is lice infested, which made them uncomfortable in taking delivery from him.
LikeLike
Rad Mahalikudi
October 12, 2018
Without getting in to Sabarimala entry, if there is a requirement that can be chosen it is fine. For example, many of Kerala temples, men need to remove their shirt to enter the temple. Now this is something I can decide to follow or stay out if I don’t want to remove the shirt. There is a choice. But if the requirement is based on “Purity” by birth, which is not in our control (purity definition dictated by society), there is no choice. Due to “purity” (or lack of it), till 1936 oppressed castes were kept out of temples till the temple entry act came. Gandhi was kicked out of train in South Africa for the same reason. Argument that time was you have your own carriage, why are you getting in ours? Rosa Parks was asked to move away from the seat for the same reason. If the access is based on something anyone can acquire there is no problem. I can get in a plane or a train as long as I have a ticket. With Sabarimala, restriction is based on “purity” by birth. Most to all religions have similar discriminatory practices. We all get conditioned from birth. Interesting thing is even one becomes a non-follower later in life, some of these beliefs and habits never go away due to STRONG conditioning.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Swati
October 12, 2018
The point is that I never see such OTT topics! So yes, it feels like an attack on majority and a majority that is truely liberal and benign to begin with…not from BR per se but from media and libtards. Where would you achieve greater good with panties in a bunch on non-issues?
In 50% of muslims, who have to face niquab/tripletalaq/halala/freedom to offer namaz in mosque with men or few temples in India where you do not want to do because Lord Aiyyapa and faith surrounding him. Why so much fear that we cannot speak the truth and hide behind majority who have minor issues. It is easy to attack majority but harder and more difficult to speak truth about Muslims and problems with Islam world over, because you will get fatwah and be instantly killed. 🙂
OK, you win. Now women can go to sabrimala. Most of Kerala hindu women won’t go anyway. Even with the “freedom”.
What greater good did you achieve?!?!
It is like painting a bathroom wall while you have a major crater in your living room and flood in your kitchen.
If you free muslim women, even in India, see the progress India would make. They can be role model to the world. Without niqab (and yes try wearing that in 100+ degree heat), ability to go to universities, having rights that truely matter and make a difference!!
In the mean time, poor muslim women, whose cause no one wants to fight. You cannot begin to imagine their plight…
LikeLiked by 1 person
Spandana Vaidyula
October 12, 2018
What I find funny about Whataboutism is that people who wouldn’t lift a finger to challenge the status quo in their own social construct, suddenly start worrying about problems in other institutions. Nobody is denying that other religions too have their own set of problems. And if anybody is actually doing something to help women of other religions, more power to them! That doesn’t mean that nobody is allowed to acknowledge problems in their house.
Female foetecide, Illiteracy, lack of health care facilities, sexual abuse are just as real problems women face as wage gap, gaslighting, glass ceiling. Should I be satisfied with my 77 cents, because my maid couldn’t even go to school? Why not fight both battles? Nobody has infinite time and energy, so may be one at a time? May be some can work on this, while others on something else? Which is what is happening. Hindu women can now go to Sabarimala, Muslim women will no longer be ditched unceremoniously by their husbands just saying a word thrice.
LikeLiked by 11 people
rsylviana
October 12, 2018
@Rad Mahalikudi -Excellent comment.
just look and listen to those people you are overstepping, respect their feelings, respect why they belive in certain traditions.
@vrcs: I look and listen to you and your feelings and say – If you don’t want to go because you are a woman and want to respect the less than 90-year-old traditions ,then DONT GO. But you do not have the rights to stop other people from worshiping God just because your “feelings” got hurt.
And about , “what would happen if Muslim women want to enter mosques or if men want to participate in a religious festival meant exclusively for women ? Will the feminists/liberals start fighting for them too?” – I ,for one, absolutely will. I am a Hindu by birth and am not really going to visit Sabarimalai because the restriction has been lifted but if another female friend of mine wants to visit the temple now , I want her to have that choice. I want her to observe the fast wholeheartedly , go on the pilgrimage safely and offer her prayers to Ayyapan. So fight for her I will.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Anu Warrier
October 12, 2018
Thank you, Spandana!
LikeLiked by 1 person
kaizokukeshav
October 12, 2018
I been to Sabarimala not with the “ayyappa deeksha” .. I should say the path to the shrine has some glorious trails. I think women should get a chance atleast to have a taste of the guilty pleasure that men are having while going to Sabarimala. Don’t get the whole menstruation thingy as if those eggs cost millions of bucks ! I wish to see these insecure dogmas eliminated from Indian society.. some day.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Vrcs
October 12, 2018
@krishna prasad.
Thanks for the info, checked advocate sai deepak’s arguments, precise and on point.
LikeLike
Rajesh
October 13, 2018
After reading this article, I had to come back here and hope all people interested in this temple would read :
https://thewire.in/history/appropriation-of-ayyappa-cult-the-history-and-hinduisation-of-sabarimala-temple
May I just add few points –
The article correctly says about Brahmins arriving in Kerala around 8thC. In Kerala Brahmins, you would find Namboodiris, Bhattathiris etc(high) then Potty (middle) and the lower levels are Nambeeshan, Ilayathu, Unni etc.. History has recorded Namboodiri was the terms used for local judges (Budhists) under Chera rulers and when Brahmins arrived and understood the power of that name in the society took it for themselves:). Am just adding to my early comment that Sabarimala went through a lot of Brahministation and hence all these anti woman factors.
Not only Shabrimala, many Kerala temples were centres of Budhism, before 8th C and before their renovation.
I was not even 10 years old, but used to read news papers very well and I remember the NIlackal issue mentioned in the article. In fact, its after that issue someone visited Sabrimala for the first time from our big joint family.
LikeLike
Rajesh
October 13, 2018
@Spandana – Loved your comment.
Since it has become a custom these days to bring up issues of other religions, some should remember that ‘throwing your wife out’ (by triple Talaq) was only recently criminalised in India. However, we all know even if the word Talaq or similar is not used, this is not happening only in Islam. We hear stories of men walking away from their family, all around us. The most ridiculous eg is right there on the highest seats of our Govt. Walked out of wife quite soon after marriage (not even doing a proper divorce denying the poor lady a chance to remarry) and still not mentioning the name of that lady for 3/4 state elections, however when it comes to parliament elections, ah the wife’s name appears again, for sake of law!. Brahmins have written down their scriptures with so much intelligence, husbands deeds are unquestionable and explainable if need be, talaq uttered or not.
In Europe, especially in France, Germany and Scandinavia, its women (more than men) who on a fine morning walks out saying I dont love you any more. The pain suffered by the woman in Islam or the man or woman who is thrown out by the partner on a fine day isn’t it all similar ? (Muslim women too have the right to say Talaq actually)
However, in our country we punish just men from one religion!
Our Constitution is evolving, too slowly though, eradicating evils one by one.
LikeLike
Siva
October 14, 2018
I happened to visit the temple in Guruvayur, Kerala — roughly some 15 years ago. I would like to point out 2 things I experienced there, that was new to me at a temple.
1) Like Rad pointed out earlier, we were asked to be topless. And then wear dhoties. There were even stalls outside the temple which lent dhoties for a nominal price! 😀
This was weird, and was mostly funny to our college mates who were part of the tour. Because it was the first time most of us were topless, at the least in front of total strangers. We were all giggling more than we were praying 😀
2) There was a large board outside the main entrance of the temple, that said — “Only Hindus Allowed Inside”.
I still remember feeling bad after I saw this then. Because I had visited a few churches before that, and didn’t remember seeing any such notice. And I am not aware how mosques operate.
That said, even if my current beliefs are completely different from then (I have stopped visiting temples and worshiping statues/images of God), and even though we all have different beliefs and are part of different religions, I still feel it would be great if we could have a bit of tolerance in allowing people of all gender/beliefs into all places of worship 🙂
LikeLiked by 2 people
Isai
October 14, 2018
“It touches a raw nerve, you know. It really touches a raw nerve. The fact that all people are neither considered nor treated as equals. The fact that one set of people get to dictate whether ‘the others’ can or cannot go to a public place. The fact that this determination is done by something as random and as unjust as the “lottery of birth”. The fact that this lottery gives you two permanent markers: caste and gender that can never be changed by you despite your best efforts….Only if you have ever been treated as a ‘lesser human being’, you will understand this pain. It is so bloody unfair.” I sat there thinking ‘factu factu factu’ as she was passionately making these arguments. She continued “I don’t care whether it is Sabarimalai temple or Aanamalai temple, I will always oppose such oppression.” This is the core problem, I thought. The fact that as a result of society treating a section of people as ‘lesser human beings’, they end up having lot of pent up frustration. They are unable to express this frustration directly because their oppressors are either in a majority or are considered too powerful. Such bad experiences usually start right from childhood which leads to painful unresolved feelings affecting their entire lives. They are like a pressure cooker that is constantly heated up by the society. When an issue like Sabarimala comes up, they are able to identify with the ‘oppressed’ and find it much easier to vent their general frustration in this scenario. That is why a lot of atheists, agonists and people belonging to other religions are also quite interested in this issue. “Aren’t you an agonist?” “Yeah, so what?” “ I am just wondering if this ayyappa issue is a source or an outlet (for your agony)” “What?” “Never Mind. A temple is a religious institution. It is not a public place in the sense that it does not belong to the entire country/people or to the government or to the Supreme Court.” “Then whom does it belong to?” “It belongs to its stakeholders..devotees, employees and the management. In this case, all of them will get covered under devotees.” “So which of these devotees will decide?” “You would expect an insitution to be run democratically and the decisions reflecting the opinions of the majority to be taken.” “ But, this decision was not taken after an election, This was decided by a few men long time ago”. “Yeah, but do you think the majority of devotees and I repeat devotees are against this decision? “What if the majority are interested only in oppressing the minority?” “Hmm..in that case, a majority of the oppressed minority should believe that they are being oppressed. Do you think a majority of female devotees are against this decision? “What if the oppressed minority are unaware of their rights and blindly follow the views of majority” “Then educate them. Go to local ayyappa temples and talk to the female devotees and educate them on how the ban is a huge denial of their rights. Once they are convinced, then organise them and agitate. But, remember that you are not a stakeholder here. So, unless these female devotees are convinced, you don’t have a locus standi for lifting the ban. She stood there, thoughtful for a moment. I was thinking of the term victim mentality. “Even if 1 woman who wants to visit, is denied that right, isn’t that an injustice?” “Hmm..for non stakeholders to intervene, the denial should affect the woman’s rights to fulfill basic needs of life or should seriously affect her right to live with dignity. Do you think that is the case here?” “Hmm..but why should a women’s period be a reason for not letting her pray in temples? Why should she be stopped from entering this ayyappa temple when she can enter other ayyappa temples?” Her tone had changed now and she was being more emotional, I just realised that the bad moon was lording her sky. Victim Mentality always peaked during the bad moon. Ayyappa, save me from an outburst, I prayed silently. Looking for time, I said “That requires you to spend some time understanding Hinduism. If you are interested, I will share my thoughts. But, first I am feeling hungry. Let me get us something to eat. And, I went to buy chocolates,
LikeLike
Isai
October 14, 2018
@Siva
The denial for non Hindus came in place only in some big temples, that too only in the last 2 decades. That was because of many foreign tourists whose behaviour was distracting and inconveniencing the devotees. The tourists saw the Mandapams, gopurams, sikarams and even the idols purely from an architecture point of view and were chatting about these. I remember foreigners saying ‘Mark, look at these’ while other devotees were feverishly chanting ‘Govinda, Govindha’.To avoid this, In some temples, they are allowed inside the gopurams but are restricted only from the garba griham. Otherwise, no one is there checking if you are really a Hindu. In yesterday’s Tamil newspapers, you can see actor Vijay’s father performing rituals in the temple pond even though he proudly claims that he is a practising Christian. Hinduism doesn’t discriminate or even distinguish between believer and non believer. It doesn’t say that only believers can go to heaven or non believers are influenced by Saataan. Non Muslims can’t enter even the CITY of mecca and non Christians cannot receive communion (religious offering) in Vatican or other major churches. Just FYI.
LikeLike
the celestial cat
October 14, 2018
I can’t really write in depth analysis of the situation that the previous commenters have put across very well. But here are a couple of thoughts I gathered on the way. I remember a meme that came about the issue which went something like this. The protestors against the verdict were holding placards that said “Saranamayyappa” and “Ayyappa is above the Constitution of India”. Now imagine this scenario with a Muslim protest holding placards that say ” Allah Hu Akbar” and “Allah is above the Constitution of India”. And then think of the consequences it could have. Then you could see Hindu privilege at work. As someone said, equal rights is not a matter that should be arrived at a consensus through discussion. It is a constitutional right that should be upheld even against a majority opinion.
LikeLiked by 5 people
Madan
October 14, 2018
“As someone said, equal rights is not a matter that should be arrived at a consensus through discussion. It is a constitutional right that should be upheld even against a majority opinion.
” – Agree word for word. With that said, I feel Misra’s term will go down as something like the CIvil Rights revolution of the 60s in the USA. The process of politicising the Supreme Court, which has hitherto been fairly independent if undoubtedly flawed, has begun. Indu Malhotra’s dissent, which the right has firmly grabbed, is the first arrow struck in this culture war and it’s going to get more and more fraught from here on. Am I saying that the court did wrong with this or the 377 judgment or the Triple Talaq one? Not at all. But I don’t know where we get to from here. All I know is I firmly blame the peddlers of organised religion who continue to keep people hateful about such things instead of bringing them together. If they are so concerned about morals, they should stop accepting donations from people they know to be crooks, thieves, maybe even murderers. And just to be clear, because a lot of people get triggered very easily these days, I am not singling out Hinduism or even organised religion in India but the world over. This problem is everywhere. Unlike the Commies, I don’t expect utopia on the other side if organised religion is crippled. But right now, they aren’t helping the cause at all.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Isai
October 14, 2018
@ the celestial cat
I agree with your point on equal rights but feel that reducing the ayyappa case to purely a man vs woman equality issue is inappropriate.
Since you wrote about Hindu privilege, Allah and equality, I would like to ask about the fact that a Muslim man can LEGALLY marry 4 times while neither a Muslim Woman nor a Hindu Man/Woman can do so. Isn’t this against equal rights? Isn’t this “constitutionally guaranteed” Muslim Male privilege? How many ’liberal’ organisations/liberals have fought for equality in this case?
Can you tell me any example where there are such constitutionally guaranteed cases of Hindu privilege?
Also, please share any hyperlink that shows Hindu organisations holding placards saying Ayyappa is above constitution. If true, I would strongly condemn such notions.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Swati
October 14, 2018
See how the story is reported as “right wing” problem. Ridiculous!
Kerala HC dismisses plea to allow women in mosques on pattern of Sabarimala verdict.
The Kerala High Court on Thursday dismissed a petition by a right-wing Hindu organisation seeking entry of Muslim women in mosques even as a Muslim reformist outfit announced its plan to move the apex court on the issue.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/kerala-hc-dismisses-plea-to-allow-women-in-mosques-on-pattern-of-sabarimala-verdict/story-oJtz8F2ukZ3QYwIivbyQOJ.html
LikeLike
blasta
October 15, 2018
That the temple is sacrosanct is true. That temples banned people from supposedly lower castes from visiting them was also true. That’s gone, and yet nothing has happened to the temples. Just that we got used to the new equality.
Arguments for defilement and holiness were trotted out when temple entry proclamations were done. There were protests then, murders, and fights. Similar arguments were trotted out when women went out to work, and today it all looks silly.
Guess the same thing will happen once you let women go to Sabarimala, People will get used to it. Two generations hence they will wonder what the hullabaloo was about.
I am not sure that not letting women go to Sabarimala is discrimination per se.
As a friend commented, it was the only place that men could refuse to take their wives to. Now that’s gone too.
As to celibacy, many women are already celibate, not out of choice, but out of non choice.
And many can vouch for that fact that it extends beyond the salutary period that Ayyappa demands.
As it is, most women do not visit temples while they are menstruating, they have this seven day window, the same should suffice for Sabarimala too. He who milks tigers should not be scared about a few drops of blood, that too of non combatants.
Moreover if one believes that God decides all things that happen, as I do, then this judgement too is to be taken as God given, or just what the Lord ordered. That the judgement came from Deepak Misra’s court is only confirmation of this supposition.
They say that he always does what the Lords order him to.
LikeLike
blasta
October 15, 2018
The comment about the Nair women’s inferior status is historically true.
This despite the community being one of warriors. The community has had to fight hard to divest itself of the demeaning that was inherent to the then status quo. Fights which have been forgotten and need to be reminded about.
There are some comments about Muslim and Christian faiths denying entry to their women to certain areas and position. The Supreme Court, in its supposedly infinite wisdom, should extend this show against discrimination to all faiths, whatever their beliefs be.
It should no longer be human to be inhuman.
Between freedom and social cohesion, the lines have long been drawn against freedom, and towards social cohesion even if it meant damning a few. However technology has this way of erasing the constraints of freedom, and making equality ambient.
The real fight then, is between history and modernity, and these laws and practices, once ancient have either to be removed, or modernized, or they will lose their following.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 15, 2018
See how the story is reported as “right wing” problem. Ridiculous!
Because the Hindu Mahasabha has always been a very conservative right wing organisation?
Why are they so interested in whether Muslim women can pray in mosques? Isn’t that the prerogative of Muslim women to do so? And in the link you posted, the reformist Muslim organisation is doing just that.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Isai
October 15, 2018
@Anu
If your office changes the dress code to say that Women are not allowed to wear jeans, wouldn’t you ask why Men are allowed? The expectation to be treated equally/fairly exists in everyone. In the article, the Hindu organisation clearly mentions the Sabarimala verdict. It is just asking the SC that when you can trample on our beliefs and traditions for upholding ‘equality’, why don’t you do it in case of other religions too. It is not trying to project itself as a champion of other women’s causes, unlike some atheists and agnostics crusading for the Sabarimala issue.
LikeLike
the celestial cat
October 15, 2018
@Isai
It sure is constitutionally guaranteed Muslim male privilege. I wasn’t talking about constitutional morality when I was talking about Hindu privilege. Our social morality is a discourse that puts the Hindu upper caste male as the default identity. Everyone else aspires to that identity. Which is why RSS can openly say it is against the Constitution of India and get away with it, where as others have to constantly prove that they are not anti-national. But you are right in calling out regressive aspects of Muslim personal law and practice. Certain organisations are moving Supreme Court against it. We could only hope the SC would stand by constitutional morality in that instance too.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Rahini David
October 15, 2018
To those who are worried about BR’s blog getting unnecessary non-filmy traffic, that is how this blog has been for quite sometime. Any movie that contained violence or stalking or religion-related or caste-related themes have sparked a lot of non-filmy traffic. But after all the hot-headed people depart in a huff and all the saner ones agree to disagree we may have a little more to go on than we began with. As KayKay was saying those who are deeply in love with not-so-successful movies can still do their personal analysis and post it here.
I personally did not know that this WASN’T an age old tradition. I was always told about how dangerous the path used to be. Whether something is an age old tradition or not should not matter, in my opinion. But it still was very interesting to know that it wasn’t.
Also, I was basically told that it wasn’t about Ayyanar liking or disliking women or Ayyanar being a brahmachari, but about the penance (maybe the wrong word for what I am going for) of the men who are doing the fasting. That does not tie up well with “What if he were an individual?” argument.
If he were an individual he can be asked questions. So I can’t see how we need to buy this argument any more than Jayalalitha not wanting to meet her niece when she was sick.
Is this really similar to girl’s schools not letting boys in? There are plenty of women’s beauty parlors or gyms or massage parlors or yoga classes. Usually a men’s gym will easily become a uni-sex gym if a woman really wants use the facilities, but a women’s gym will remain exclusive even if men express interest to join. Usually a girl’s school having a lot more facilities than a boys school will happen because of foreign-aid. But if that is the case, boy’s schools will soon erupt around the locality like mushrooms. I am not able to see this point as a true parallel.
So what will happen if men wanted to follow Karva Chauth? See the quote in given link “My husband has been fasting along with me for the last 15 years! Infact his fast is tougher than me, coz I get up in the morning to have sargi, while he does not do so!” Maybe some women’s-only religious practices are different from others. But we need to discuss it only when some men WANT to participate and are disallowed from this, no?
To those who ask why this bothers Atheists and Agnostics. It is true that it is not very different from Muslim places of worship also being exclusive to men (so far). That per se does not bother me. But these changes and difference of opinions can bring about violence. Like this and this. I personally do worry about how things are going to unfold from now on.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 15, 2018
Isai, since the Mahasabha based their entire defence on the petition (NOT the petitioner!) being filed by a Muslim lawyer, it reeked of hypocrisy to then go file a petition on behalf of Muslim women. Now, this man had been a lawer and a Muslim woman had asked him to file a writ on her behalf – guess what? I would support him whole-heartedly. As of now, he doesn’t want to go to a mosque, he is not a woman, nor is he Muslim. The court threw it out knowing it for the political ploy it was – deservedly so.
But now, the reformist Muslim organisation for women is planning to approach the bench for the right of Muslim women to pray alongside their men. Let’s see how the court upholds their civil rights. If they don’t, on the basis of ‘tradition’, then we can protest. Loudly. I’ll stand alongside you to do so.
And Isai, to confound things, I am a Hindu. I’m a woman. I grew up with the tradition of the Sabarimala hills. I may be agnostic, but I still wouldn’t go there because the culture is deeply embedded in me. I think I would feel guilty. But that’s me. I cannot – will not, should not – stop other women from going if they want to.
@Rahini – there are many men nowadays who keep the Karva Chauth fast alongside their wives.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Isai
October 15, 2018
“Our social morality is a discourse that puts the Hindu upper caste male as the default identity. “
I agree with this statement. Unfortunately, as long as power (not just political power) and wealth are concentrated in their hands, this may continue to be so.
“Which is why RSS can openly say it is against the Constitution of India and get away with it, where as others have to constantly prove that they are not anti-national.”
I feel you are mixing up two related but separate issues. RSS had criticised the Constitution of India (but not in the last 20 years. JFI. http://www.rediff.com/news/interview/no-one-in-the-rss-questions-the-constitution-anymore/20180928.htm). But that wouldn’t make them anti-national because they were not opposing/destabilising the integrity, sovereignty or unity of India. They just have a different idea of how the nation should be. That view may be myopic or even stupid but that wouldn’t make them anti-national. Similarly, a majority of Pakistanis today want their legislation to be influenced by sharia. This again wouldn’t make them anti-national.
LikeLike
Isai
October 15, 2018
If the fact that a majority of mosques being exclusive to men doesn’t bother one, I would expect them to react to Sabarimala (ONE temple being exclusive to men) issue also by saying that “It is no big deal”. But I am bemused to know that they are very interested in knowing that this isn’t an ancient tradition and also on dissecting each argument raised for keeping the ban and unsurprisingly, they find all the arguments to be invalid. They are also worried about the possibility of violence based on anonymous phone calls and a speech by an attention seeking rabble rouser. All political leaders, from Seeman to Tamilisai get such calls almost everyday and rabble rousing speeches are also quite dime a dozen. It is this excessive interest and worry (or rather curiosity) of Athiests, Agnostics and Non-Hindus (say AAN) that bemuses me. It also bemuses me that almost everyone belonging to AAN tend to have very similar views about the Sabarimala issue.
I was staying in another country for a few months. I met an Indian shopkeeper there who kept saying “Ab India main kuch nahi – There is nothing left in India’ almost every time I went there. After few months, when I went to tell him my final goodbye, he told me that he had sold all his belongings and had shifted his entire family there only 6 months ago. While he was a bit okay, his womenfolk were finding it quite difficult due to new atmosphere, neighbours, climate etc. He was quite anxious that this should work out. That’s when I realised that he was having doubts about his decision to shift and by convincing himself that India is quite hopeless, he wanted to feel better about his decision by saying that irrespective of how bad/uncomfortable the new country is, it is definitely better than being in India. Sometimes, I wonder whether the AAN group’s typical reaction to Hindus’ issues is due to similar reasons.
LikeLike
MANK
October 15, 2018
After Arnab’s daily circuses , ignorant fools on both sides making a mockery of the issue in both the media and in the streets, At last some sane, informed arguments about the issue i couldn’t have put it better
LikeLiked by 1 person
Isai
October 16, 2018
@ Anu, none of the newspaper articles I googled says that the Mahasabha based the legal defence by questioning the lawyer’s religion. If you have, please share. I agree that it is a political move to show people that Hindus are treated differently. But, I don’t think it reeked of hypocrisy because suppose say we were traditionally playing tennis barefoot. One match, I enter wearing shoes. You protest but the umpire says that there is no rule saying that one can’t wear shoes. Now if you start wearing shoes in the future matches, then you wouldn’t become a hypocrite.
Since you are not a stakeholder here (devotee in this case), I feel that it is not your decision to take on whether other women should be allowed or stopped from going to Sabarimala. I personally feel that women should be allowed under special circumstances say if a female devotee is terminally ill etc. but giving unrestricted access to women is what I object to. I am uncomfortable being bare chested in front of unknown women. Walking in a stone filled path along with a huge crowd while balancing the irumudi on the head itself is an arduous task. During this, I don’t want to be also worried about bumping into a woman. The abstinence made me reflect on its physiological changes and on why it is difficult to control the base impulses. It made me more introspective, meditative on my own body and my soul. It is also among the best instances of male bonding that I have experienced with my dad and other male relatives (In other family functions, it is the females who hog the attention), Curiously, the abstinence period also improves the marital life as the absence makes the heart grow fonder. This is what I have observed as the practical Sabarimala experience to have been, for the men that I have seen. I don’t mind considering lifting the ban if the majority of female devotees want it..but I feel it is bloody unfair for the ban to be lifted solely to upheld equality as per the notions of people who can’t even distinguish between Ayyanar and Ayyappan.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 16, 2018
@Isai, the petitioner in the case was a Hindu woman who wanted the exclusion to end. The lawyer was a Muslim. Here, the head of the Hindu Mahasabha isn’t a lawyer so he couldn’t argue that the case was the same. He was filing a case in which he wasn’t going to go to a mosque (which, he can enter by the way, by virtue of being a man), on behalf of people who hadn’t asked him to do so, for what? Solely to make it a communal issue?
As for your discomfort about being barechested in front of a woman – every temple in Kerala requires the man to be bare-chested in the inner temple. So your argument doesn’t wash in Kerala. I’m sorry, but your discomfort shouldn’t be responsible for keeping an entire gender out of your way.
Your baser instincts are yours to conquer, not a woman’s responsibility not to arouse. (And going down that path is a slippery slope, my friend.)
Your abstinence can still continue – random women going to Sabarimala shouldn’t be affecting your abstinence during those 40 days. (Also, JFYI, not all men keep the 40-day fast. So that shouldn’t even be an argument.) If your abstinence (general ‘your’) is going to cause you to falter at the first sight of a woman on the trail, perhaps you (general ‘you’) aren’t devoted enough.
Your male bonding with your male relatives can still continue – how does some random woman going to the temple affect that experience?
Look, I’m fine either way. I don’t want to go. If I did, I probably still wouldn’t go. But that’s me. I cannot impose those beliefs on other women who do want to go. I wouldn’t want them to impose their beliefs on me, either.
What I’m curious about is to watch what the Supreme Court will do to uphold civil rights when the Muslim women file a case arguing they should be able to worship in the mosque. If that gets struck down, I will call out the double standard. But I’m hopeful – this is the court that struck down the triple talaq on the petition of Muslim women.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Isai
October 16, 2018
@Anu
I did not say that my personal beliefs and experiences should be a basis for lifting/retaining the ban.(I hope you had seen my earlier comments in this thread)
Just as you had shared your personal experiences and beliefs regarding this, I had shared my experiences to illustrate how the Sabarimala tradition is different from and even rather unique when compared to visiting other hill-top gods say Thirupathi Balaji. Now, I don’t need to visit Sabarimala to practice abstinence. But it is a TRADITION that was taught to me during my childhood which gave me an unique experience and perspective that I have chosen to occasionally follow in my adult life. I see that SC giving UNRESTRICTED access to women will only lead to a slow breaking down of this tradition in the years to come. While this alone may not be a sufficient reason for denying entry to women but this should not be totally ignored by treating this case solely as a Man vs Woman equality issue.
As Justice Indu Malhotra wonderfully articulated “the right to equality conflicted with the right to worship of devotees of Lord Ayyappa — the deity of the Sabarimala temple — and that the equality doctrine can’t override the fundamental right to worship under Article 25 of the Constitution. She said notions of rationality can’t be brought into matters of religion.” ” It’s not for courts to determine which religious practices should be struck down — except in issues of social evil like Sati, Justice Indu Malhotra said.”
LikeLike
Isai
October 16, 2018
@Anu
“the petitioner in the case was a Hindu woman who wanted the exclusion to end.”
Is it? If so, can you please name that woman? In most such cases, the petitions are filed directly or indirectly by people who otherwise openly claim to be atheists but during these cases alone claim to be Hindus because “their certificate says so”.
https://barandbench.com/sabarimala-women-entry-supreme-court/
In this case, the petitioners were :
1. Indian Young Lawyers association: Has this organisation fought any other case for women’s rights/liberty/equality or for youth? I am not able to get 1 result from Google.
2. “Happy to Bleed” 🤔🤔: This is supposedly a women’s organisation whose sole purpose is to fight against the taboo about Menstruation. So you can’t expect it to fight for any other women’s/equality issues. (Funnily, it uses young bollywood women to hold placards saying ‘Happy to bleed’ while the same women also say that women should have the option to take special sick leave during their periods because err.. they are sick. I always wonder, how women can be happy and sick at the same time. Maybe they are happy to be sick since that gives them an excuse to take a break from the household chores. Or because this is the most convenient excuse to avoid visiting functions of distant relatives..”I was really looking forward to come but suddenly I got my menses”.. The only problem is that sometimes one absent mindedly repeats this excuse to the same relative after a fortnight and gets caught.😁)
3. All India Democratic Women’s Association: I thought “A women’s organisation at last” but when I Googled it I realised that this is just the women’s wing of CPI.
Regarding your comment about kerala temples, in other temples while one can’t wear a shirt, one can always cover by draping an ‘angavastiram’ (large towel). This is not practically possible while walking with Irumudi in the Sabarimala. You can say that if you are so uncomfortable, you can wear a shirt or even better you can stop going, but please refer to my previous comment about upholding traditions.
LikeLike
MANK
October 16, 2018
I wasn’t going to say anything about this issue mainly because i am not comfortable discussing this issue here. I come here to actually get away from these issues. Secondly, i didn’t like the way Honest Raj instigated this separate thread ,an attempt to call out hindu atheists. i wasnt going to indulge anyone with my religious beliefs, thats not for public consumption and its above judgement from anyone. But i was quite sickened by all the rhetoric that has been spread in the media since the judgement, from both sides. i happened to see a lot of that stuff here as well. i will just make this intervention and go away
Isai, you are going about it in completely the wrong way. this has been the bane of the sabarimala issue right from day one. The people who are for the traditions , for respecting the faith are doing no favors for the same by making the most damaging arguments, threats etc .which only weakens the issue. Like that super idiot Rahul Eeshwar who is all over the place making hilarious arguments , chanting jallikattu, jallikkattu, attukaal pongala, women’s entry into mosques and all such nonsense – trying to build a case in relation to other religions, other issues – when the arguments to be made are inherent right there within the faith and history of the temple. But i get the reason why this idiot is invited to every news programme because it suits their agenda. the news channel, other panelists who are for the petitioners and for the judgement can very easily expose him and show him for the fool that he is and the righteousness of that agenda is established
I hope people would go through the videos in which Adv Sai deepak has explained in detail what , why and hows of the issue. i will just try to condense his ideas and words of which i am in agreement with irrespective of my religious beliefs . Actually its quite long , since its a very complex issue . You could see why this cannot be discussed very well on say Arnab’s show , where everyone wants quick judgement. he doesn’t allow anybody to speak anyway
The nature of the Ayyappa is that of someone who has renounced the proximity of a certain group of women. That is Ayyappa’s nature manifested as per his own decision for himself. Let us keep in mind that Ayyappa is a male. A devotee who is not ignorant would understand that nature of Ayyappa and will honor it. A non-devotee would not feel the obligation to honor it. An ignorant devotee would be behaviorally similar to a non-devotee in this case. One must have knowledge of what to honor, and with what degree and priority.
An ignorant Hindu can also contribute to this attack due to his/her lack of exactness in the understanding. Honoring of Ayyappa’s nature is evident for humans largely through the recorded history, while Ayyappa’s nature is part of widely accepted mythology. Now, why did Ayyappa decide his Naishtika Brahmacharya? Only he knows. There is no actual rationale to support it. There is no actual rationale to oppose it even. We are aware of only the god’s decisions, not his mind & its mechanisms. One will have to oppose the idea of god itself to oppose Ayyappa’s decision. Faith and belief systems are abstract and irrational
Now if one is going to question the sex of Ayyappa or his sexual orientation or the concept of Ayyappa’s renunciation ,Then, you are not acknowledging the nature of Ayyappa in Sabarimala. You are fantasizing some other entity. Either you can try finding that entity you are looking for, or make your own new temple.
Perhaps Ayyappa could be considered a sexist as per today’s standards. If you feel so, and feel very strongly against sexism, do not choose to be a devotee of Ayyappa. There are many other gods to show your devotion. Find a non-sexist one. Ayyappa is considered a god and certainly far superior to any mortals. Your value-system would most probably be inapplicable for a god.
Now we all accept that all Hindu gods are not the same While one must show aversion to practices that are clearly harmful, one must also identify practices that make our gods unique and preserve them. Hinduism acknowledges the ‘form-less property-less omnipresent god’ simultaneously with the numerous gods who has specific forms and mythology behind them. It sustains a plethora of god-based -isms such as polytheism, pantheism, monotheism, agnostic, atheism and even deism. One can be Hindu with or without the Vedas, or any such texts. Hinduism maintains the individual’s opportunity to question anything.democracy is a relatively newer mechanism which provides new kinds of opportunities which may not be about religion itself. One must analyze in detail without agenda. Let the agenda come from the analyses, and not prior to them
No one is denied from the act of praying itself. What is being prohibited is the entry to the temple when one is a woman of a certain age group. The lack of intellectual honesty about this makes discussions less meaningful.
Now let us say You do not believe in god as an independent entity from human imagination, or does not believe so specifically about Ayyappa:
In this case, you rationally cannot demand to enter Sabarimala. You have no respectable objective to enter that place. Actually, you will have no interest in entering any religious place if you are an atheist. If you are in the role of an anti-theist, and if still you demand to enter, then you would be suspected of ill-intentions. If you claim that you are trying to speak for other devoted women, then you lack the basic requirement for representing them by not realizing the reason why they have the devotion. You already have an outlook that is incompatible with them. A devotee would reasonably place Ayyappa above constitution. You lack that perspective. So, you have no rational argument to put forth regarding temple entry of devotees or themselves.
If You believe in Ayyappa being a god whose history and mythology is known:
If you are such a devotee, then you are asking a genuine question about Sabarimala temple-entry regulations. The reply is this – if you are a genuine devotee of Ayyappa, then you will respect his decision of renunciation. You will act accordingly. The explanations are present mainly in what is explained above. If you still have doubt, then person to ask is the Thantri who really knows about Ayyappa and who is really concerned with the functioning of the temple . Not the misinformed people who has no refined idea of Kerala & its mythologies.
If you are theist and believes in Ayyappa to be god , then consider this- What do the human ideas of sexism, patriarchy, left/right politics, communism, democracy, constitution etc. mean for a god?. Even the Thantri cannot make any major changes. What makes Ayyappa ‘Ayyappa’ must be preserved.Let me make it clear than i am not going into absurdities like purity/impurity of women or menstrual blood and such crap. It is a non-issue, a straw-man, a distortion of Ayyappa’s stance on renunciation .This is not a men-versus-women debate either. Just a humble reminder that The importance of the temples are maintained also by their exclusivity.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Voldemort
October 16, 2018
Woman observes fast for going to Sabarimala.
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/post-sc-verdict-kerala-woman-observes-41-day-fast-go-sabarimala-90005?amp
LikeLike
Rahini David
October 16, 2018
Very well written, MANK.
LikeLike
Rocky
October 16, 2018
Not related to Sabarimala, but somewhat related , brilliant piece by Kanchan Da:
What is offensive and worrisome is that individuals and groups are now powerful enough to enforce diktats on what can and cannot be worn, shown or eaten during Hindu festivals. Vegetarians are free to their choice of food as much as non-vegetarians are. Cultural identities and social conditioning determine whether or not to follow a particular set of rules, rites and rituals during a religious festival. What we are witnessing is a curtailment of these rights which are non-negotiable in a democracy that is founded on diversity
https://theprint.in/opinion/back-off-its-my-durga-as-much-as-your-parvati/134615/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 16, 2018
MANK, bravo! I do not agree with what the honourable advocate you quoted said, not in its entirety anyway, but I must agree that my initial reaction was ‘If you believe in Ayyappa you wouldn’t want to go, and if you don’t, why would you want to go?’ And my cultural background, upbringing, as an ‘ambalavasi’ no less, makes it impossible for me to go there, whether I believe in God or not.
I agree that our temples are built around our myths and traditions and there is a reason why one can only climb the 18 steps if one has taken the 41-day fast, or why someone would hammer a nail into a Pala tree at Chottanikkara. And so I can understand why even the women in Kerala are up in arms.
I also agree that the frenzy on both sides along with the whataboutism on one side makes me want to dive into a hole and pull it in after me. (As also with your observation about HV. 🙂 I’m kinda-sorta sorry I took the bait.)
All that said, since the ‘ban’ on women entering the temple only came about in 1991, I can’t argue for ‘tradition’ or Ayyappa’s renunciation as basis to keep women out of the temple. Women who are devotees of Ayyappa and do not belong to our state may want to enter – I cannot, in good faith, say they should not enter.
Other than the women activists, I do not foresee any Hindu woman in Kerala entering the temple. From what I’ve heard from my social circles, the believers will not go and do not want other women to go. The non-believers don’t want to go, but believe that exclusion has no place in civil society. And then, there are believers who will not go themselves, but who do not want to stop anyone else from going.
Now, there is one way the Sabarimala Temple Board can stop the entry of women – by forgoing their subsidy from the state.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 16, 2018
@Isai – Google is your friend. 🙂 (No offence meant. At all.)
https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-kerala/sabarimala-controversy-women-lawyers-move-supreme-court/article18470164.ece
The notice was filed by 5 women lawyers; the petitioning lawyer was a Hindu. The poor president of the association happens to be a Muslim and of course, everyone is gunning for him.
Now, the Sabarimala issue is clouding every other thing they seem to have done, so Google was certainly not my friend in this. I went 20 pages deep but even that is stuck on the Sabarimala debate.
I have said all I have to say on the topic, though, because no argument is possible around faith. I cannot point to a ‘right’ and a ‘wrong’ here. And sitting on the fence is a dashed uncomfortable position to be in.
I will say this, though – these moves will polarise Kerala into us vs. them. And with political parties entering the fray to whip up the frenzy, this will only increase the hostility between the religions. And that is unfortunate – we, who grew up in Kerala, grew up with a inter-religious amity the likes of which is rare. Today, I see that splintering.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 16, 2018
@Rocky – I read about the issue before. The link you posted is exactly where I stand on that issue. This whole imbroglio is the implementation of a certain form of Hinduism that I abhor! Who the heck are they to decide what I should eat, what I should wear, how I should worship? Ugh!
LikeLike
MANK
October 16, 2018
Thanks Rahini, A lot of the words are taken from the video verbatim. So I don’t take credit. I just embellished a little. People may have issues with what is said here as well, so that should be discussed. But at least we will be discussing the right things as opposed to a lot of junk that’s being thrown around. I am very sad about what’s happening with sabarimala.Riots, road blocks, Death threats , attacks against women, completely unacceptable things related to a place of worship. The big problem here is the concern among keralites and Hindu devotees especially about outside forces conspiring to engineer and execute a law that almost 99 percent of the devotees, women included, do not want . There has always existed tension between the theist malayali population and atheistic communist government. That has come to a boil with this issue. This issue could and should have been handled with a lot more sensitivity and maturity
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rajesh
October 16, 2018
A Naishtika Brahmachari could spend his whole life serving his Guru in his home and upon Guru’s death, he could still continue to live in Guru’s home taking care and serving the wife and children of Guru. N B doesn’t mean at all he must stay away from the eye sight of women, he was just supposed to view every woman as his mother or sister, without desire. If present day devotees think Ayyappa is not able to control himself then 🙂 🙂
Didnt he even chose to live in the same area where the lady Shabri was living, after supposed to have given her moksha.
Didn’t Malikappurathaama, the woman Leela, proposed to Ayyappa? Did it change his mind, he agreed to treat her as a sister.
How can then Ayyappa be afraid or hate the sight of women?
Naishtika Brahmachari is also not supposed to enjoy music or dance or use Gold? Dont they sing and dance for Ayyappa. Gold is so important in that temple, even the idol is dressed up with gold ornaments.
N.B is also not supposed to have any sweets right? How many offerings given in the temple are not sweet?
Why just protest about just the women’s entry. If these devotees really care for Ayyappa and his traditions why did not they worry when the Chirappan-chira family (the Ezhava Kalari family who is supposed to have taught martial arts to Ayyappa) in Muhamma when Dewasom Board stopped all their rights in the temple just after 1950’s (the same time as when they first blocked women’s entry)? The Pandalam royal family even had given these rights to this lower caste families in copper plates. Some ornament in the ‘Thiruvabharanam’ still contains the ones from Chirappanchira family!
Didn’t they think Ayyappa must be sad to not being served by his teachers family?
A tribal group near Shabarimala had the rights to offer ‘Tenabhishegam’ on his idol. Why was that stopped. Didn’t that worry Ayyappa?
Ok its the Brahmins who decide what makes Ayyappa sad or worried, right?
There are also many versions of Ayyappa stories in Kerala. In one of them he was belonging to a Pandya royal family, in another he is a tribal chieftain and in another he is even supposed to have 2 wives and a son called Sathyakan.
Just like in the case of Ramayana and other mythologies, Brahmins decide which one to follow.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Isai
October 16, 2018
@ MANK
“While one must show aversion to practices that are clearly harmful, one must also identify practices that make our gods unique and preserve them.”
Exactly. Well Said!
LikeLike
sanjana
October 16, 2018
Can we have a simple poll Yes or No? No other options should be given.
LikeLike
Isai
October 16, 2018
@Anu
Google is a friend of recent happenings. The article you provided is dated 12 YEARS ago.
That is why it is getting buried 20 pages deep. While I strongly object to the president being targeted just because he happens to be a Muslim, I am very surprised at not seeing this association of lawyers having fought for any other women’s/liberty/equality issues in these last 12 years. And look at the names of these 5 lawyers: “Bhakti Pasrija Sethi, Laxmi Shastiri, Prerna Kumari, Alka Sharma and Sudha Pal” None of them are even South Indians. Do you think any of them grew up in an environment/family worshipping Ayyappa? Are they an affected party in this case? I don’t think so.
LikeLike
MANK
October 16, 2018
Now, there is one way the Sabarimala Temple Board can stop the entry of women – by forgoing their subsidy from the state.
Anu, even after that they will have to file a fresh petition and await Court’s verdict, since this is a verdict of the Constitution bench. Till then this verdict will be effective. Now that’s going to take a lot of time.
Yeah, this issue has terribly damaged the communal fabric of the state. The unity post the floods is lost. It has been politicised beyond measure. May the Lord himself guide us through these tough times
Swaamiye saranamayappa!
LikeLike
Arjun
October 16, 2018
Am pretty ignorant about this whole discussion. But am personally surprised by the backlash this is causing. On my email and social network, many Malayali acquaintances who I otherwise consider only nominally Hindu and quite progressive in their thinking, not to mention thoroughly anti BJP have been sharing petitions to “save sabarimala” etc. It is apparently also causing great discomfiture to the communist govt. So there is clearly something about this that seems to be a particularly sensitive issue for Malayalis. The all-north Indian SC bench is likely to have been ignorant of this as well. In any case, I find most SC rulings to be superficial, ill-informed and grandiloquent. I mean why the fuck did the sec 377 judgement have to run into 500 pages?
LikeLike
Eswar
October 17, 2018
@MANK. That’s a fantastic argument.
—
As much as this is seen as a conflict of tradition, rights and gender equality, in another level, I see it as a lack of clear definition of public vs private property and understanding of its rights.
In a very simple view, a public property or institution cannot discriminate in any form. It should be agnostic of religion, gender, traditions of various groups and shouldn’t apply any privilege or exception neither for the majority nor for the minority. This means a public property cannot hide behind traditions, religious values and culture to discriminate its citizens.
On the other hand, a private property should be free of society’s authoritarian hands. It should be able to follow the tradition it wants and practice what it believes. The only time a government or judiciary can interfere is when it does an actual harm to an individual or the society. So discrimination or privileged access should never be an issue for a private property. A private institution can decide whom it wants to attract and deal with.
But a more challenging question to answer is what defines a property as public or private. One view is, any institution that provides a form of service to the public is a public property irrespective of who owns it. Another view is an institution or the property owned by the government or receives public funds from the government. Funds could be money or some form of subsidies. This does not include voluntary donations and support from non-governmental patrons. I prefer the latter definition as it still allows individuals to provide a service but also frees them to choose their customer base.
It is within this framework that I try to view the Sabarimala issue. This view steers away other compounded issues like upholding tradition, temple’s history, gender equality etc. but still attempts to provide a solution. From this view, if Sabarimala receives any form of government funding, then it cannot pick and choose whom it can allow and not allow. Whereas if it runs on the funds from its patrons and devotees, the rest of us do not have any say on how it should go about running the institution. Another reason why governments should be minimal and stay away from things where their involvement is not required. Religions and funding religious institution is one such thing.
This view probably has its limitations. But simpler views and rules are easy to understand and uphold.
LikeLiked by 3 people
sanjana
October 17, 2018
Go ahead ladies!
All the best and visit your deity Ayyappa.
The people who are objecting are mere mortals. If they win, it will create space for fundamentalists from the other religion.
LikeLike
sanjana
October 17, 2018
LikeLike
Madan
October 17, 2018
I do not agree with the line of argument that Sabarimala is a private entity and should be allowed to make rules as they see fit. By this standpoint, a whole set of social and labour laws against discrimination or unequal pay could equally be held to be invalid. Why does our still socialist republic only remember the free market when it comes to religion?
That said, I have a larger question. Why temples, why places of worship? I have never liked the notion that Tirupati, Shirdi or Siddhivinayak or Srirangam are all somehow more holy than the little shrine in my kitchen or even, for that matter, the tiny neighbourhood temple. If God resides in everything, isn’t this concept of some temples being more equal than others itself ridiculous? It is high time this doctrine is called into question and organised religion is rightsized.
LikeLike
sanjana
October 17, 2018
It looks like only 2 women ventured to go. One a journalist and the other from andhra with family.Looks like police left them at the mercy of the shouting protestors after accompanying them for a few hundred metres. A wishy washy attempt to please the supreme court?
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/two-women-devotees-reach-sabarimala-temple-sent-back-by-protesters-1933319?pfrom=home-topscroll
LikeLike
sanjana
October 17, 2018
https://www.ndtv.com/kerala-news/two-journalists-covering-sabarimala-protests-attacked-car-smashed-1933382?pfrom=home-topscroll
LikeLike
Isai
October 17, 2018
Till today, Indian women are not allowed to work in any underground mines as per The Mines Act 1952. This, despite the fact that today, women from the Americas to even Africa do so. Even though many women belonging to mining families want to work in that Industry and strive to overcome all hurdles to get educated in that field – https://www.thebetterindia.com/72077/chandrani-prasad-verma-first-female-mining-engineer-of-india/
If the time, energy and attention spent for Sabarimala issue was spent on this issue, women could have got some real benefit.
LikeLike
sanjana
October 18, 2018
SABARIMALA: When a family from Madhya Pradesh arrived in Sabarimala on Wednesday, they expected to undertake a journey through the heart of nature to a spiritual experience that can be expected only at the age-old Lord Ayyappa’s temple. But lying in wait for them was a veritable nightmare, with dozens of protesting devotees allegedly trying to target a 22-year-old female member who happened to accompany them.
Manoj, the woman’s father, said the mob tried to pull her out of the bus they were travelling in. “Two to three of us protected my daughter by forming a human shield around her. Thankfully, the police intervened and shut the door of the bus. With their help, we managed to back the vehicle and take it to a nearby bus stand,” he added.
The male members of the family returned to the temple only after leaving the woman and her septuagenarian mother-in-law behind.
A visibly shaken Mr Manoj vowed to never “make the mistake” of returning to Sabarimala or recommending a pilgrimage to the hill shrine to anybody. “This temple does not seem like a place of worship to us. Hooliganism reigns in this place,” he said. “We have never seen women being treated with such hostility. It’s almost as if these people view women as terrorists.”
LikeLike
Honest Raj
October 18, 2018
Rajesh: Excellent comments.
A Naishtika Brahmachari could spend his whole life serving his Guru in his home and upon Guru’s death, he could still continue to live in Guru’s home taking care and serving the wife and children of Guru. N B doesn’t mean at all he must stay away from the eye sight of women, he was just supposed to view every woman as his mother or sister, without desire. If present day devotees think Ayyappa is not able to control himself then
Well said! Not that I want men to be allowed to fantasize about female gods but the tradition of “elevating” female mortals as the love-interests of male gods is outright sexist. There’s even a shrine dedicated to “Thulukka Nachiyaar” in the Srirangam temple.
Btw, hope you don’t mind me asking – are you a Mithunda fan by any chance? 🙂
LikeLike
Arjun
October 19, 2018
Regardless of other considerations, the images today of 200 police personnel in riot gear accompanying 2 women devotees to the top of the hill and then being forced to return by stone pelting sloganeering protesters is the reason why Hinduism is considered the most regressive and indeed the laughing stock among all major world religions.
LikeLike
Rajesh
October 19, 2018
Sanjana – Actually its not just 2 women. There seems to be more. However, they hear about the terrible stories as they arrive in the gateway towns (Chengannur, Thiruvalla, Pathanamthitta) and decides not to go. Friends in Pathanamthitta say that the ground situation is much more horrible than what is reported in the main stream. RSS men are literally spreading terror on the road. I never thought I would hear such things would happen in Kerala.
The difficult part for the Govt is that all this region (mostly Central Travancore – south east of Alleppey, north of Kollam and nearly the whole of Pathanamthitta dist) is extremely religious and with a massive support for RSS. Even many Communist people in this region would speak like right wing!
Congress joining the protest only for electoral reason has not helped..
When the SC permitted women’s entry into ‘Shani’ temple few years back, BJP was ruling Maharashtra and they had no issues with tradition. But Kerala was always beyond their reach and this has given them hope and hence all this..
Honest Raj – 🙂 The Leela woman is the Brahmin version of the story. Actually, am coming across more and more new information. I read this article in an online news site (you could say this site is Malayalam equivalent for ‘The Wire’, and run by some prominent journalists) and am sorry I cant translate it. My English is not that good. I will just brief about the love interest of Ayyappa.
He was brought to the Chirappan chira family (Kalari exponents belonging to lower caste Ezhavas) for learning, by the Muslim warlord Vavar where he got close to Lalitha, his teachers daughter (Poongodi for some historians). She even helped him in his battle with Maravars (forest dacoits) and got killed. She is the Malikappurathamma, (Brahmins later changed to Leela – demonesss Mahishi- to remove the lower caste influence from the story), and devotees visit her idol before reaching Shabarimala. There is a particular necklace, Veerasrunkhala, which adorns Ayyappa idol in the Janurary festival, which even the Pandalam royal family accepts as Lalitha’s ornament!!!
Unlike other mythologies, many Kerala historians consider Ayyappa as a historical figure and hence different arguments like he was from Pandya family to tribal chieftain. He must have lived in a time Kalarippayatt was prominent, means not that many centuries ago, and like many other folklore gods (as in Theyyam) evolved into God!
Malampandaram, a tribal group (who were displaced from Shabarimala around mid 20thC when DB expanded the temple facilities after renovation) says Pandalam royal family occupied Shabarimala from them..
Honest Raj – did you mean Mithun Chakraborthy — Not a fan, but I thought he was an excellent actor who didnt get many chance to prove his talent. If he was in Malayalam cinema in 80’s he would have known more as an actor – my opinion
LikeLike
Rocky
October 19, 2018
Re.-sloganeering protesters is the reason why Hinduism is considered the most regressive and indeed the laughing stock among all major world religions.
Matlab # Kuch bhee !!
Thomas Issac, the Finance Ministers calls the Hindu devotees terrorists , here – Hinduism is the most regressive .
Mann sey Raavan jo Nikaley , Ram usskey Mann mein hain!!
LikeLike
Rocky
October 19, 2018
Please dress modestly :
LikeLike
Madan
October 19, 2018
Rocky: There I have to agree with you; the Abrahamic religions are no better. Didn’t they kill some staff of Charlie Hebdo for drawing a cartoon of the Prophet? So yes religion per we is increasingly a big joke, is how I would amend it.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 19, 2018
@arjun: You mean even more a laughing stock when riots happen in many countries for a cartoon or a youtube film. You mean a laughing stock when after every truck ramming pedestrians in Europe, there is a mandatory religion of peace sermon.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 19, 2018
@madan: Political correctness disease?? Why plural Abrahamic religions? It is one religion only. Western society built on other J C Abrahamic religions are fine today though they had a checkered history.
LikeLike
Madan
October 19, 2018
@ Tambi Dude: It’s American Christians (not all but some and many in absolute terms) who embrace crap like Scientology and flat earthism. Jews in the UK paint Corbyn as some Hitler avatar just for having ties with Palestine supporters. Peaceful Buddhists in Lanka have waged decades long war on their Tamil compatriots. I can come up with examples for most religions this way. A system that expects its followers to abandon common sense in favour of blind devotion to a holy cult is flawed. It can sometimes take non religious forms like communism in the Soviet but it’s usually religion that spawns clowns by the thousands, maybe the millions.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tambi Dude
October 19, 2018
Madan: I was talking about the role of religion in the western society. Not denying what you wrote above , but the western society by-and-large ignores religion as a public matter. That is, one is free to follow any religion. Also since the rule of the law is much better here, discrimination based on religion is very tough. For example, no apartment complex will refuse renting out to a person following a particular faith. Doing so will 100% result in penalty. Now compare this with India. People will proudly say that they will never rent their home to a .
Islamic society: Well it is a different matter all-together. Indians working and living in middle eastern countries have stories to tell. Follow this simple rule: Wherever muslims are in a minority, they scream daily about rights of minority. Where they are in majority, minorities have no rights.
Anyhow my objection was about clubbing all 3 Abrahamic religions together for reasons mentioned above. In any case a religion is laughed at mostly due to the actions of its adherents, not the contents of its theology.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
October 19, 2018
“but the western society by-and-large ignores religion as a public matter” – True, but the key is the by and large and the likes of scientology cater to the significant minority who would like to remain in the good old days, whatever that means. No disagreement about the distinction between Western SOCIETY and its Islamic counterpart. But my point was simply that there is no shortage of clowns in any religion, whether Abrahamic or Dharmic.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Rocky
October 19, 2018
From Chandni Chowk to China, Kuch bhee samajh toh aaye Na …..
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/10/japanese-sacred-island-where-women-are-banned-gets-unesco-world-heritage-listing?CMP=share_btn_fb&fbclid=IwAR0hC9bGpubdNFZnV98WIxxFgs3WjJEAZpdCJ1Rkr-RRt1PbM1qCf85XiqA
A sacred island in south-west Japan that bans women and where male visitors must strip naked before going ashore has been declared a Unesco world heritage site.
The reason for the ban on women has never been publicly stated, but one theory – which extends to other aspects of Japanese culture – cites the Shinto belief that menstrual blood is impure
Takayuki Ashizu, the chief priest at Munakata Taisha, said the ban on tourism – and women – would stay in place, despite a flood of inquiries from travel agencies.
“We wouldn’t open Okinoshima to the public even if it is inscribed on the Unesco cultural heritage list, because people shouldn’t visit out of curiosity,” Ashizu told the Japan Times last year.
LikeLike
Arjun
October 20, 2018
“The difficult part for the Govt is that all this region (mostly Central Travancore – south east of Alleppey, north of Kollam and nearly the whole of Pathanamthitta dist) is extremely religious and with a massive support for RSS. Even many Communist people in this region would speak like right wing!”
That’s news to me. I thought Mallus were sensible people and RSS hardly has any presence there. If true, then Tamil Nadu remains the last bastion against RSS.
LikeLike
Anuja Chandramouli
October 20, 2018
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/sabarimala-women-stopped-minister-cant-protect-activists-coming-show-strength-5409944/lite/?__twitter_impression=true
I was heartbroken on reading this. In a country like India it is so typical for vested interests to take people’s faith which can be a beautiful thing and twist it into something unspeakably sordid. Personally, I am an agnostic and all for women’s rights but this is getting ridiculous. The article I posted above says that a Muslim (Rehana Fathima) and Christian woman (Mary Sweety) tried to enter the temple. If that isn’t waving a red flag at a raging bull, I don’t know what is. I mean how would it be if a Hindu woman sauntered into a church during Mass and demand that she receive the holy communion or to demand entry into a Mosque while insisting that the Khutbah be read in her name? As for the media, it is busy portraying the protestors as hooligans and hauling Hindus over the coals for their lack of tolerance. Why persist in provoking the faithful in order to play at votebank politics and unleash communal violence? Why won’t the morons ever learn?
When Trump ascended to power, I remember a few articles that suggested albeit hesitantly that liberal bullying and their attempt to force their PC beliefs on others was to blame. Think Madan mentioned it too at the time. It is a shame that the same is happening in India as well with such tragic results.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
October 20, 2018
“When Trump ascended to power, I remember a few articles that suggested albeit hesitantly that liberal bullying and their attempt to force their PC beliefs on others was to blame. Think Madan mentioned it too at the time. ” – Actually I called it in a thread before the Trump election, warning that anti democratic forces would rise if we pushed the needle too much. I read some article shared by one of the members here which stated that some OPINIONS are dangerous and thought this was getting ridiculous. It is what I say and what I do that should dictate whether there ought to be consequences. Anything beyond that is thought control and unacceptable in a democracy.
That said, I don’t think that is exactly what’s happening here. BJP is using its parent organisation RSS to play a clever, diabolically clever, double game. First of all, in most of these social cases, the SC rarely passes verdicts that they know won’t go down well with the central govt. The govt had expressly told the SC they would not interfere with the 377 and triple talaq verdicts. So the BJP allowed Misra-ji to pass all these progressive verdicts so they can entice 2014’s first time voters to come back in 2019 AND also get more first time voters to come out and vote for them in turn. It is BJP’s USP under Modi, this youth support (apart from old fashioned Hindutva which they will work over in the cow belt). Meanwhile, they have given the Kerala Communists a long rope to hang themselves with. Vijayan’s enthusiastic support for the SC verdict is going to anger a very large segment in Kerala and they will swing to the BJP. Then, BJP will come and tell them not to eat beef (later on non veg, later onions as we go along) and they will regret it, but it will be too late. There is time yet to consider not making a pact with the devil, but it is going to happen now. And what BJP is going to lose in the North, they will try to make up in the South and come back maybe in some slightly weaker coalition arrangement. And as long as it is only the traditional NDA partners like SS or SAD, it will work out fine for them.
LikeLike
Madan
October 20, 2018
Obama-like rainbow coalitions will never work in India. The Hindus are the overwhelming majority. Previously, parties succeeded in getting around this by getting the backward castes and minorities to vote on the same lines. The BJP has succeeded in breaking this coalition and uniting most Hindus in an anti-minority stance. There were signs that old caste equations are returning to politics, especially in Gujarat, but the Sabarimala issue will swing votes back to BJP in a big way.
LikeLike
Arjun
October 20, 2018
@Madan: That’s an astute reading. Note that RSS leadership and the vile Subramaniam Swamy enthusiastically welcomed the SC verdict initially. Seeing the mood of the ground cadre in Kerala, RSS has now made a clever U-turn, or maybe that was the plan all along. Sadly it looks like BJP will indeed benefit in Kerala now.
To any Mallus here: I’ve heard that the protesting people are mainly Nairs and Brahmins. Is that true? And if so, what is the mood among the Ezhavas and SC who I believe are the core voters of CPI? I remember reading somewhere that Ezhava caste leaders unanimously welcomed the verdict.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Arjun
October 20, 2018
@Anuja: Granted the optics on that doesn’t look great. But your analogy is not quite correct. Neither of these women did anything equivalent to demanding to receive communion or demanding to read the Khutbah. They simply wanted to enter the temple. Also, how can you be sure they aren’t devotees just because they have Christian or Muslim sounding names. As far as I know, Yesudas, who is a christian is also an ardent devotee of Ayyappan and also Guruvayurappan, although until recently EVEN he, probably the most universally loved Mallu alive wasn’t allowed to enter these places. I also know other men with Christian sounding names who have visited Sabarimala. I read somewhere that Rehana Fathima even claims to have followed the 41 day vrata also.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Srinivas R
October 20, 2018
” but the Sabarimala issue will swing votes back to BJP in a big way” – only in Kerala may be. I am not on Facebook, but the Sabarimala issue isn’t even a blip in my north Indian friends circle, from what I see in WhatsApp and such. I do agree with Anuja that a Muslim women wanting to visit Sabarimala ( at this time)is politically motivated and an unnecessary toxin in an already chaotic environment.
LikeLike
Srinivas R
October 20, 2018
Anuja, to your point about the media painting the Hindus as intolerant, the most vocal of protestors, have asked for women to be ripped off, scaring away genuine women devotees, what else can we expect. This is true of the beef lynching cases as well. When the most vocal voices we hear are the likes of sangeet som endorsing the violence and outing Muslims as “other”, the image that will get painted is that of Hindu intolerance.
LikeLike
Anuja Chandramouli
October 20, 2018
“Anything beyond that is thought control and unacceptable in a democracy.” Word.
But Madan, I think you are crediting RSS extremists, Gaurakshaks with a lot more intelligence than they actually possess. I mean, their mouthpieces claim that there was Wi-Fi in the vedic age, cow piss can solve the energy crisis, thermacol can end the water crisis & other mind-blowing garbage pertaining to relativity that I am not even going to put down here or anywhere else. Think these chaps are making it up as they go along and seem content to play their usual games which has a single rule – divide and rule.
And guys, please please read this fantastic piece by Ahmed Sharif on why the liberal media is not exactly the friend the minorities need : https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www.opindia.com/2018/04/ahmed-shariff-i-am-a-muslim-and-i-am-not-a-victim/amp/
LikeLike
sanjana
October 20, 2018
On a lighter note.
Hema and Rekha will not be allowed if people go by their faces and figures. They look not more than 35.
LikeLike
tonks
October 20, 2018
Like Anu Warrier had admitted, despite being an atheist and feminist, I wouldn’t want to go to Sabarimala either, having grown up with the cultural taboos specific to that particular temple. I cannot imagine any devout female in Kerala wanting to flout the rule either. Maybe in a generation or two, when all this becomes old history, but not now. The only ladies who may want to go right now are probably non Hindus, north Indians or people who have a point to prove and have not been raised in a devout Hindu Kerala family. The petition itself was given by north Indians and not Keralites.
But despite that I’m convinced that the stigma regarding menstruation needs to be removed, so I can’t say I’m totally against the verdict.
The most vocal voices are those of brahmins (the priests and the tantri family) and the Nairs of the NSS. But most Hindus in Kerala across all castes are uniformly against letting young women in.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rajesh
October 20, 2018
@Arjun, If you could find my older comments on this post, I have already mentioned who organise these protests. Basically what is happening is controlled by 2 Brahmin families, the royal ones of Pandalam and the Tanthri family for Shabarimala. There are the same ones who in mid 50’s who started all this anti women rules in Shabarimala.
And please, no one should even think that all these protesters on the road to Pamba are devotees, please!
Ezhavas are not just the vote base of the communists. They are the largest caste group in Kerala and they might have every reason to see Brahmins and some Nairs hurt by the SC verdict as Brahminisation in Shabarimala erased all their association with Ayyappa, and striked out all their rights with the temple too (some of which are in my earlier comments). However, like NSS for Nairs, Ezhavas too have this organisation SNDP with a head man who is still one of the big Abkaris (liquor barons) of Kerala, and kind of Trumpish and Modiish with his tongue.
So if BJP manage to get his support, which can be very easy, the next parliament election would make history in Kerala. BJP knows this very well and that is exactly what they are doing.
Congress is making a huge mistake by falling in and the Kerala CM has rightly pointed this out. Shabarimala issue, would do what Babri Masjid demolition did to Congress – nationally – in the long run. Congress I think was already worried that the local support for Govt was growing up with the floods and couldnt wait any longer to start something 🙂
And for your other question. RSS always existed in Kerala, but not strong or influential. Mostly it was young boys and men – beef eating of course:), who were not left or right, but a bit religious and wanted the support of some group so that some one is there to protect their petty mischiefs. In the last 2 – 3 decades they have been slowly growing and through out the state there are some villages (especially if there is a big temple) in Kerala where they are quite strong. For eg, the village of Aranmula in Pathanamthitta or Varanad in Alappuzha etc, one might feel like you are in Gujarat! But since 2014, they have become more bold!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
October 20, 2018
“But Madan, I think you are crediting RSS extremists, Gaurakshaks with a lot more intelligence than they actually possess. I mean, their mouthpieces claim that there was Wi-Fi in the vedic age, cow piss can solve the energy crisis, thermacol can end the water crisis & other mind-blowing garbage pertaining to relativity that I am not even going to put down here or anywhere else. Think these chaps are making it up as they go along and seem content to play their usual games which has a single rule – divide and rule.” – See, I think here you are falling into the liberal fallacy of mistaking lack of intelligence in terms of believing pseudo science crap for lack of political acumen. In terms of political acumen, the Modi-Shah duo is Duryodhana-Shakuni and RSS has supported them ably, unlike how Sudarshan and Vajpayee didn’t get along. Hitler believed a lot of crap, obviously, about Aryan man and all that but he was also a master strategist. We cannot underestimate their shrewdness just because they believe in pseudo stuff. In 2014, Caravan had written an article about the extent to which RSS took this election seriously, saying, “If we don’t win now, we won’t get another chance for a 100 years but if we do, we can rule for 20 years”. They’re playing the long game here, make no mistake. And it’s not like they have to beat Australia to win the match, just Kenya or Canada.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
October 20, 2018
” I am not on Facebook, but the Sabarimala issue isn’t even a blip in my north Indian friends circle, from what I see in WhatsApp and such. ” – On my FB feed, a North Indian lady has posted, saluting Kerala’s women for “stopping jehadis and missionaries” and urged the women of UP to show similar fervour for the Ram Janmabhoomi cause. Speaking of which, Bhagwat is already raising the temperature for Ram Mandir. Just in time for 2019 elections.
LikeLike
Honest Raj
October 20, 2018
Rajesh: She even helped him in his battle with Maravars (forest dacoits) and got killed … Unlike other mythologies, many Kerala historians consider Ayyappa as a historical figure and hence different arguments like he was from Pandya family to tribal chieftain
Actually, Maravars are a caste in southern TN which claims to be the descendants of the Pandyas. It’s all confusing. Thanks for the detailed explanation. 🙂
LikeLike
Honest Raj
October 20, 2018
Madan: Previously, parties succeeded in getting around this by getting the backward castes and minorities to vote on the same lines. The BJP has succeeded in breaking this coalition and uniting most Hindus in an anti-minority stance. There were signs that old caste equations are returning to politics, especially in Gujarat, but the Sabarimala issue will swing votes back to BJP in a big way.
Spot on! The BJP’s biggest achievement, IMO, is the consolidation of a Hindu votebank – it’s with this strategy that they’ve become highly successful in the north, especially the BIMARU states. As for Kerala, a combined voteshare of 15 percent (in the previous assembly elections) is no joke.
Arjun: That’s news to me. I thought Mallus were sensible people and RSS hardly has any presence there. If true, then Tamil Nadu remains the last bastion against RSS.
Ever heard of the Moplah rebellion?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rajesh
October 20, 2018
Honest Raj.. Am sorry if I offended you. I have heard about Maravars, but the article I referred to, I forgot to past the link even if its in Malayalam – https://www.azhimukham.com/offbeat-ezhava-women-lalitha-ayyappan-relationship/ – if any of your friends could translate I hope – and it described them as such.
But I dont think its confusing.:- May be you are aware about this may be not – Keralites have always looked down at Tamil people. Tamilians are always ‘Pandees’ for most Keralites and I realised this in 80/90’s but am sure its not a recent phenomenon. Considering how Brahmins picturised all indigenous Indian tribes as demons in their myths, its possible that ever since Brahminism became stronger in Kerala around 8thC, they could have treated everything coming east of Sahyas in a negative way. This is my thinking as even today lots of things around Tamil is looked down by Keralites. for eg: both in urban and rural areas families scare their little ones to not step out of the home unattended, so they wont be taken away by some Pandy ‘pillere piduthakkaar’ (who steal children). I just said one thing. This looking down happens in many many matters.
Sometimes I think its got better than 80’s with Tamil population growing in Kerala, but then I hear some one around making another comment and I feel its never going to change. Even I was like that, and tamil cinema (starting from Agninachithram) was a big reason how my attitude to TN changed.
LikeLike
Rajesh
October 20, 2018
@Madan – loved your comparison of Modi Shah to Duryodhana and Shakuni. The modern ones seems a 10000 times more shrewd though 🙂
Those who say about Muslim and Xian people visiting Shabarimala, please note this was one pilgrimage in Kerala which was considered beyond religion in Kerala. At least 2 decades back, shabarimala was always talked aout as the place were religion didnt matter. I have so many Muslim and Christian friends who have been there. This being the big similarity of Shabrimala and Onam festival.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rajesh
October 20, 2018
@Tonks May I say that there are many Hindu women who would like to visit Shabarimala. If only they had got that permission from their fathers and husbands, and if they were sure about a peaceful trip, they would have gone.
Permission – the FREEDOM OF PERMISSION from the man who protects them in the family 🙂 Since you say you are a feminist, am sure you understand why I say so. Lots of people travel in Kerala and says oh, your women seem to have got freedom. Actually its just a freedom with permission from their father/husband who pretends to be liberal in front of others but would go mad if the woman would do or decide something without consulting him.
I dont think any of these men will let their women go there now. May be after 2019 election BJP and RSS wont mind and you would see more women. If they didnt care in Shani temple, they wouldn’t care about it here too, especially if they make history in 2019.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rocky
October 20, 2018
This is beyond the allegedly Wifi in Vedic age jumla !! Kaun sa drink lagatey ho Mitr ?
@- So the BJP allowed Misra-ji to pass all these progressive verdicts so they can entice 2014’s first time voters to come back in 2019 AND also get more first time voters to come out and vote for them in turn.
In terms of political acumen, the Modi-Shah duo is Duryodhana-Shakuni
Jo meri manzilon ko jaati hai…
Tery naam kee koi sadak hai na ..
LikeLike
Madan
October 20, 2018
Rajesh: It is not an original comparison. Saw a meme once with Modi and Shah’s faces replacing those of the original actors from the DD Mahabharata series.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 20, 2018
Anuja, the focus on the religion of these women who want to go to Sabarimala is disconcerting. As far as I remember, Sabarimala Ayyappa was beyond caste and religion. Many, many men of different castes/religions visit out of their devotion. To suspect that Fathima is a plant is another blow to the cause.
As Arjun pointed out, Yesudas has been going to Sabarimala for decades. He’s also a great devotee of Guruvayoorappan at the Guruvayoor temple. I still remember my very-devout grandmother, when she read that he had been barred from entering the temple, remarked sadly: ‘All Yesudas has to do is to stand outside the temple, and sing a bhajan, and Guruvayoorappan will leave the temple to meet him.’ It is said that Vayalar was so incensed by the Devaswom Board’s decision that he wrote Gurvayoor ambala nadayil for a film called Othenande Makan.
Fact is, there have been many, many Christians I personally know, who used to regularly go to Guruvayoor, Chottanikkara, and the Paramekkavu temple in Thrissur. Absolutely devout Christians who also believed strongly in Krishna and Bhagawathy. For all I know, there are several Muslims in Kerala who visit these temples.
I also second Madan’s response regarding the BJP/RSS smarts. They are absolutely street-smart and very, very, good strategists.
I am terrified of the saffronisation of Kerala. The very North-Indian type of Hinduism is something I’m not looking forward to – it’s the homogenisation of a religion that, by its very nature, is not homogenous.
LikeLike
Anuja Chandramouli
October 20, 2018
Glad to hear that traditionally, the Ayyappa temple has been welcoming of men belonging to other faiths. Recently though, I have noticed that quite a few temples do not allow non-hindus past a certain point. That is sad for obvious reasons. I mean if there is a God, he/she wouldn’t be so small – minded so I am definitely not saying the faith of the women in question should be the criterion for allowing them entry. However, in this particular instance, I feel compelled to point out that the timing is most suspect. Also somebody posted a screenshot of Rehana’s FB profile that seemed deliberately inflammatory (https://twitter.com/kavitakane/status/1053583339465203713?s=19)
The entire thing reeks of lousy rabble rousing. And I actually agree with the govt. statement saying that Sabarimala should not be a battleground for activists. As an agnostic who simply has no patience for ritualized worship and organized religion, I was once pulled aside by an aunt, who said I am well within my rights to have my own thoughts on religion but it was not ok to be filled with scorn or to look down on the beliefs of others. It made me feel truly ashamed of myself and ever since I have tried to be respectful and a little more considerate even when I want to roll my eyes or throw up my hands in despair.
I love visiting churches (though I can’t expect to receive the blessed sacrament) and wouldn’t mind visiting a Mosque either but am pretty sure I won’t be welcome and I respect that. Every religion has certain prescribed dos and don’ts for followers. Therefore in a secular country where we are trying to educate people on the rights of the minorities to practise their religion as they see fit, it is unfair to simultaneoisly attack the beliefs of the majority. Applying cold logic to matters of faith (Ayyappa won’t mind!) is not going to cut it with fervent devotees.
So live and let live I say. Why waste time and energy on this? There are other battles to be fought, perhaps we need to walk away from this one.
LikeLike
Arjun
October 20, 2018
“See, I think here you are falling into the liberal fallacy of mistaking lack of intelligence in terms of believing pseudo science crap for lack of political acumen”
Again, correct. It is always a mistake to underestimate the intelligence of your opponent. These people are masters at playing a double game. During the jallikattu agitation too, they were always sending mixed signals. Again the SC itself, which typically lacks balls only banned it because Menaka Gandhi and the Susu swamy faction said they will support the ban. BJP eventually hoped to get political mileage out of it through the ordinance legalizing it but TN people were smart enough to see through the ploy and gave them a good kick on the backside. I really hope Kerala also wakes up to this game before it’s too late. Yes a 15% voteshare is no joke. And that was before Sabarimala. Amit Shah and Mohan Bhagwat must be salivating now.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Arjun
October 20, 2018
@Rajesh: Thanks for explaining the background. Saw your earlier comments too now. I am surprised that these two brahmin families still hold so much sway! Especially given Kerala’s history with the caste system. For this reason it’s also bewildering to me that Nairs are the biggest votaries of Brahminism in Kerala.
Regarding Ezhavas, the articles I read suggested they are all for lifting the ban, E.g.
SNDP leader supports govt decision –
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/kerala/2018/oct/10/sabarimala-womens-entry-row-sndp-yogam-in-support-of-kerala-government-1883406.html
https://scroll.in/article/897631/it-is-an-upper-caste-protest-ezhava-outfit-in-kerala-denounces-rss-plans-for-sabarimala-stir
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 21, 2018
Anuja, there I agree with you. Totally. Especially about cold logic not cutting it in matters of faith because belief isn’t based on logic or reason.
If I want them to respect my agnosticism, then I need to respect their theism. To some extent, that’s also one of the reasons I gave my mother when I refused to go to the temple – that I would feel like a bloody hypocrite and disrespectful of the others who pray devoutly and with great faith.
It pains me when atheists talk of ‘that pyjama-clad figure in the sky’. How does it matter to you whether someone believes in a stone or a ‘fanciful’ figure-in-the-sky or whatever? As long as you [general ‘you’] don’t impose your beliefs on me regarding religion, I’m perfectly happy not to impose mine on yours. It’s when religious beliefs or ‘traditions’ begin inserting themselves into civic discourse that I have an issue with it. Religion once was, and I think, should continue to be between the person and his God (or lack thereof).
I’ve been to churches, even stood up in a wedding for my friend. I have been to a mosque in Bangalore where I was studying, with a very dear Muslim friend of mine. I was first taken to the Ulema, introduced as a Hindu, shown around and taught about Islam. I didn’t kneel to pray, but I was told that as long as I sat behind and was respectful, nothing else was expected of me. I had my head covered as is expected but then I also cover my head when I go to a Gurudwara. shrug (Yeah, for an agnostic, I seem to have gone to many, many houses of worship!)
LikeLike
Madan
October 21, 2018
“Therefore in a secular country where we are trying to educate people on the rights of the minorities to practise their religion as they see fit, it is unfair to simultaneoisly attack the beliefs of the majority. Applying cold logic to matters of faith (Ayyappa won’t mind!) is not going to cut it with fervent devotees.” – This is why Uniform Civil Code is a good idea and should have been done long back, esp when Rajiv Gandhi had the support of moderate, enlightened Muslims like Arif Mohammed Khan. The point is respect for religious diversity stops at the point where it begins to practice bigotry upon others. That is not acceptable in a modern society. So, on this point, I came across this lengthy article that the Sabarimala verdict was another example of the imposition of modernity. Well, but we do live in a modern society, how much ever we want to hide behind religion and deny this. We have a constitution, a Parliamentarian structure of govt and a Supreme Court. Let’s just go back to Panchayat Raj if we don’t like modernity then. Historically, Sati was also eliminated by means of a ban imposed top-down, not through gradual social awakening. The more I learn of history, the more I become skeptical that these gradual social awakenings happen. People are all too happy to cling to beliefs to justify their need to hold prejudices. I have met a chartered accountant who believes Hanuman really existed. If that be the case, we cannot wait for the point when the majority of people in this country will come around and ‘see the light’. That is not going to happen. Interventions will be required where it is felt such customs are no longer compatible with society.
I also dislike the conservative insinuation that liberals somehow stole a verdict that nobody really wanted (this is the argument US conservatives played successfully and now enjoy a majority in the US SC). No, both sides were given due opportunity to be heard and the SC still arrived at the verdict that it did. If you have a problem with the verdict, file a review petition and if that doesn’t work, petition the central govt to amend the constitution (which happens often in India unlike the US) but don’t try to make it out like liberals are legislating through the SC. Even if that is true, it is equally true that conservatives have done this for a long time like the school teacher who got ‘A’ rated movies banned from satellite television and imposing national anthem in cinema halls. Of course they have absolutely no problem unilaterally trampling upon OUR requirements and choices when they wish to. Democracy and free speech only seem to enter the equation when one of their sacred cows is slain by a democratic institution. I call it hypocrisy.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 21, 2018
looking around comically And now I agree with Madan as well.
Heck, this fence-sitting is getting uncomfortable. I shall go with my first comment that I wouldn’t go myself, but I’m glad the Supreme Court gave other women the same choice as I want for myself.
Every change that was deemed controversial one because it went against faith and tradition (Sati, widow remarriage, triple talaq) has been or will in later years be taken for granted as another step forward towards an equitable society.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Madan
October 21, 2018
Minor self-admonishment on grammar: parliamentary, not parliamentarian! Parliament hasn’t been parliamentarian for a long time now.
LikeLike
Lankesh
October 21, 2018
“I have met a chartered accountant who believes Hanuman really existed.” – What?? How can that person be so naive?? Maybe he was retarded.
“Every change that was deemed controversial one because it went against faith and tradition (Sati, widow remarriage, triple talaq) has been or will in later years be taken for granted as another step forward towards an equitable society.” – Interesting to note that you have equated Sabarimala with issues such as Sati, widow remarriage and triple talaq which are widely accepted as social evils. Also interesting to note that you have not mentioned issues like untouchability or denial of temple entry to Dalits in this list. But of course, for a Savarna women, only women’s issues are the obstacles in the movement towards an equitable society.
LikeLike
sanjana
October 21, 2018
I dont know where to put this article.
https://www.thehindu.com/society/sum-of-her-parts-why-are-the-vast-majority-of-indian-organ-donors-women/article25271956.ece?homepage=true
LikeLike
Madan
October 21, 2018
” Maybe he was retarded.” – Wish he was. Unfortunately, there are many like him. These are the people who are not going to swing in the next election. They’re resolutely behind Modi because in him they have finally found a PM who endorses the same pseudo science shit that they believe in. That being only one of the reasons for their support, of course.
LikeLike
MANK
October 21, 2018
I hope people understand that Hindus are close to being a minority in kerala. By some accounts they already are. Anyway, Hindus are broadly split into the Nair and Ezhava organisations whose leadership fight each other like cats and dogs , while other religious groups who have a considerable population in the state, take advantage of the situation as well as their minority status granted to them in the constitution and practically has a monopoly of various financial sectors in the state now.There is tremendous insecurity in the Hindu populace on account of this. Add to this, the blatantly Anti Hindu media , and you get the picture. This verdict could not have come at a worse time and government hell bent on enforcing it in such a hurry without any consultations brought out the wrath of the full community.
Compare this with the supreme court verdict on the Orthodox – Jacobite church issue , its been fifteen months and CPM Government has not implemented it . they say they are still looking for consensus, ha.. and they wanted to implement the sabarimala verdict within fifteen days . Can anyone blame the community for suspecting the intentions. Its an utter fallacy to say that just 2 royal families are behind the agitations . why the hell are all the prominent parties and leaders, who welcomed the court verdict at first now backtracking. they all underestimated the extend of the anger in the Hindu community. How do you think an ordinary Ayyappa devotee, who is protesting against the infringement on his religious beliefs , feels when the left front government and the stupid media keeps branding them sanghis when they are anything but that. BJP\RSS are doing exactly what the congress has done to the muslim community over the years , exploiting their insecurity and anger within the hindu community. I am afraid that the political landscape of the state has irrevocably changed after this verdict and not for the better
The way the women who went to sabarmala were treated were completely wrong. the violence, the unauthorized checking by the mob etc and so was the the police excesses, the media manipulations, the activist troublemakers, the political machinations from all parties. All this should all have been avoided. well any sweeping change in the religious belief system will take some time , perhaps an entire generation, for it to sink in and be normalized. the process of that change is fraught with danger in a democratic polity and has to be handled with sensitivity and statesmanship. 2 things that was sorely lacking from the powers that be.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Anuja Chandramouli
October 21, 2018
Madan: I totally agree with you. And yet my stand on Sabarimala remains unchanged. Contrary creature aren’t I? But allow me to point you towards a beautiful article I read this morning written by Keerthik for The Hindu ( https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns/the-churning-of-tradition/article25274079.ece/amp/?__twitter_impression=true)
He rightly points out that Hinduism is highly localized in these parts which make it unique, complex and difficult to regulate since the government as well as progressive liberals would prefer a more homogenous belief system that can reflect modern principles with a tiny tweak here and there. It reminded me of my own home town where Mariamman has a legion of followers and to this day they carry ‘poochattis’ (fire pots cushioned only with neem leaves) and stick tridents into their tongues during the thiruvizha and drag her ‘ther’. As a child, I used to be fascinated and remember relatives telling me that all this is nothing since in the good old days, devotees walked on a bed of hot coals and dragged the ther on their backs. Guess these things just got phased out in a very organic way. Plus though for me this is a source of macabre entertainment, to this day I am also moved by the simple, fervent love and devotion evinced towards Amman in those parts. These folks constitute the silent majority and they have rights too right? Why trample on it just because their rituals may be considered heathen by modern, educated folks? It’s the reason folks gathered in Marina to protest the Jallikattu ban.
Love how Keerthik summed it up: “What the Sabarimala struggles reveal is that in absence of explicit harm to any group of persons, the wisest course of action in matters of religion is to let communities of believers evolve norms on their own. We’ve seen this time and again in Hindu society. Reactionary backlash is least when reform comes from within.”
LikeLike
Honest Raj
October 21, 2018
I’ve come across people online (the proud ‘Andhbhakts’) who believe Modi to be the Kalki avatar of Mahavishnu. 🙂
LikeLike
Honest Raj
October 21, 2018
Rajesh: No offense taken – I’m very much aware of all the ‘Pandees’/’Aravams’ stories. 🙂
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 21, 2018
@Lankesh: ““I have met a chartered accountant who believes Hanuman really existed.” – What?? How can that person be so naive?? Maybe he was retarded.”
Only as much retarded as someone who believes Jesus walked on water or Mohd flew on a concord horse called Jibrael and met Allah and came back to earth, all within the same night while the rest were sleeping. Or Moses made sea split and create a NH-1 highway.
I believe all religions are man made concoctions. I am fine with it as long as violence is not threatened and the society does not force everyone to conform to its rules. E.g, atheists have no chance to eat food in office during Ramzaan in any islamic country.
Classic liberalism is a fine concept. But the liberalism we see in India and USA is: attack only that religion whose adherents do not resort to violence when they are offended. I prefer to call it hijra-ism.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 21, 2018
@Lankesh: Sigh. Yes, I should have mentioned Dalit entry into temples. I should have mentioned untouchability. I should also have mentioned a host of other social ills that I didn’t.
It could be savarna bias. Perhaps. Or it could be that I was typing this at 1 a.m. and because we were talking about women entering the temple, I equated it to other evils that beset women – that was all that my tired brain could come up with.
LikeLike
Madan
October 21, 2018
“What the Sabarimala struggles reveal is that in absence of explicit harm to any group of persons, the wisest course of action in matters of religion is to let communities of believers evolve norms on their own. ” – This sounds fine on the surface but instead of women of menstrual age, substitute Dalits and how does excluding them work? Other-ing a section of society is never ok. I am amenable to ANY solution other than a SC verdict but the fact is religious bodies are the ones least interested in dialogue or democracy. They think it’s fine to just impose their norms ‘because’ down people’s throats. Of course, the question everyone who defends Sabarimala’s position asks is why visit Sabarimala if you think it’s so bigoted. And I welcome that question with open arms and would urge everyone to ponder over it. Again, do we really need public places of worship, especially all these super hyped ‘VIP’ places like Sabarimala, Tirupati or Haj? That, I am convinced, is the long term solution – to ditch them for good, voluntarily, with zero judicial intervention that would give anyone a pretext to whine about. For people to realise that is all the purpose organised religion serves at this point – to give reasons to their followers to exclude some groups if not outright hate them. And whether that is a useful purpose at all in the world today.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Madan
October 21, 2018
@ Honest Raj: To quote Vengaya Naidu himself, “Modi is God’s gift to India”.
LikeLiked by 1 person
sanjana
October 21, 2018
Sabarimala and metoo threads are stealing the limelight from films.Can we have another topic about changing names of places? It started from Chennai and Mumbai.Now Shimla may become Shyamala. Ooty is already Udhagamandalam. Hyderabad is Bhagyanagaram unofficially. Only Bangalore and Mysore did not change drastically except for some spelling changes. Allahabad is Prayagraj. Delhi should be Indraprashtha. Kolkata is apt for bengalis and difficult for others to pronounce.Trivandrum is Thiruvananthapuram. The britishers left us with much headaches and heartaches.
LikeLike
Lankesh
October 21, 2018
@Anu Warrier
Equating Sabarimala with real social ‘evils’ like Sati or widow remarriage seems quite disproportionate.There are 2 mountains, one in Greece and another in Japan, where women are not allowed. Would you say that women of these countries are plagued by evils or that these countries don’t have equitable societies just for this reason alone?
My point about you being a Savarna woman is that since we don’t see evils like Sati or opposition to widow remarriage nowadays and since you are Savarna, you don’t seem to truly understand what a social evil is and hence you are magnifying a mosquito like minor issue into a Monster.
LikeLike
Madan
October 21, 2018
“Now Shimla may become Shyamala.” – A friend of mine living in Shimla posted a pic of the morning sky there with the wry caption Swach Shyamala. Because you can see the effect of pollution on the horizon (which is not clear as it ought to be for a hill station). And the govt is evidently less bothered about that than changing the name.
The biggest joke was changing the name of a Mumbai suburban railway station Elphinstone to Prabhadevi. The actual Prabhadevi area happens to be 10 minutes drive from there on a Sunday morning and at least 20 minutes in normal Mumbai traffic. Meanwhile, Elphinstone may be a so called firang name to the Hindutva brigade but the name derives from a well regarded ex-governor of the erstwhile Bombay province.
The British made Bombay/Mumbai the city it is. I strongly dispute the belief that the original name was Mumbai; it may have been concurrently called that by the locals. But a proper city didn’t exist there for a long time. It was built over. Renaming it was ridiculous to begin with and now renaming old stations is just silly. The best part is they made a hash of renaming Victoria Terminus the first time around. They called it Mumbai Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus and now after all these years, somebody woke up and said, no, you have to say Maharaj after Shivaji otherwise it is disrespectful to him. So, once again, the name has been changed. Meanwhile, the bridge of Delisle road/N M Joshi Marg as applicable has been razed leading to utter chaos and govt is least bothered about THAT.
Oh, one last episode of the renaming saga. A new station has come up between Jogeshwari and Goregaon. The area is called Oshiwara and it was assumed that the new station would also be called that. But no, somebody remembered that there is a Ram Mandir near the station and local BJP campaigned so that the station was inaugurated with the name Ram Mandir. Ab Ayodhya mein nahi toh Mumbai mein toh Ram Mandir ban gaya!
LikeLike
Cromagnon
October 21, 2018
Madan’s posts mirror my own thoughts, a foreboding of evil, a feeling of despondency and helplessness. Like LOTR, I feel the heat of mordor bearing upon us, saroun is getting stronger by the day, he can feel it. The south is falling, his evil hordes are at the gates waiting to overrun the place. There is no one to bear the ring, all the contenders are wimps.saroun’s victory is assured, he will reign indefinitely.
In the history of a nation, there are defining moments which guide its course, I guess we are witnessing one such moment, the time when we all changed for the worse. Changes in attitude are incremental and subtle, like the proverbial frog in a pot of water on a stove, it will be too late when we realize that we are being cooked.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Man with No Name
October 22, 2018
Lankesh: “I have met a chartered accountant who believes Hanuman really existed.” – What?? How can that person be so naive?? Maybe he was retarded.
Sorry! But belief is exactly that – a confidence in something (or someone) especially without proof?.
How is that being retarded?
LikeLike
Eswar
October 22, 2018
Temples and other religious places are not just about God. It serves other purposes.
It’s a gathering of like minded people or people who share a common belief. It creates a sense of community among them. What they do their, doesn’t make them feel awkward which would be the case if they do it elsewhere. So they would feel a sense of belonging.
These places can evoke certain emotions. It’s a lot easier for believers to experience this. This could be because of the architecture, the lighting, the sound or the remarkable sight of their God even if it is only a statue to the rest. Not all outsiders can understand this. Because it’s an experience. It’s an individual’s own journey. The place of worship is a medium for their journey. And because it is a journey it is unique for every individual. Because it is unique different worship places create different experiences. So a corner temple or a church may not create the same experience as standing in Brahadeeshwarar or at the Vatican. The Object of worship may be same at both the places but the medium, the ambience makes it a different experience.
It’s the difference between watching a movie at home, at a tentkotta and in a finest theatre. More importantly, each and everyone watching that movie in the same theatre, at the same time goes through a unique experience. It’s their very own journey. Only they can define its value.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Madan
October 22, 2018
Cromagnon: Speaking of defining moments, in the run up to 2014 a lot of people cited Nostradamus predicting that this period would mark a major turning point for India. No idea whether he really did predict that but maybe years from now people will look back and realize it was a turning point from where things got worse.
LikeLike
sanjana
October 22, 2018
Sabarimala temple row: Two Kerala ministers lock horns with royal family over direction to priest
The Pandalam family has been at the forefront of the agitation against the Supreme Court order lifting the age bar on entry of women to Sabarimala.
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/sabarimala-row-two-kerala-ministers-lock-horns-with-royal-family-over-direction-to-priest-5411819/
LikeLike
Lankesh
October 22, 2018
@Man with no name
“How is that being retarded?”
Unless you are a Liberal, you wouldn’t understand.
Being a Liberal means that you have the “courage” to question and invalidate the “unscientific” beliefs of the majority while understanding that this is unnecessary in case of Minorities.
Being a Liberal means that you grew up and/or are residing in a multi-cultural environment where the biggest commonality between you and your neighbours is that you both belong to the same income-group. This makes you appreciate the diversity of your acquaintances but at the same time you subconsciously realise that you don’t have any shared customs that you regularly follow. Hence, you negate any identity based on shared customs/beliefs because when you don’t have such an identity, how can anyone else have it? Especially when the people claiming to have this identity are labelled under the same majority group as you.
Being a Liberal means that you have the assertiveness required to demonstrate the smug sense of superiority that makes you consider the people believing in the existence of Hanuman as retarded.
Being a Liberal means that you are mortified to know that out of 20 lakh temples, there exists 1 temple that doesn’t allow women in its premises. You consider this to be one of the biggest evils faced by women, on par with Sati and far more important than say unequal pay for equal work and lack of employment opportunities, public sanitation facilities and safety.
Being a Liberal means that you don’t consider ‘denouncing and negating the beliefs of hundred crore people purely because of the harmful actions of a few lakh individuals’ as equivalent to ‘throwing the baby with the bath water’.
Being a Liberal means that you wake up in the middle of the night feeling choked, you often suffer from panic attacks and you are constantly wringing your hands in despair because.. stations and cities are getting renamed.
Now, if this doesn’t make you realise that this is ‘the beginning of the end’ and that this will definitely/eventually lead to a holocaust like situation resulting in civil war, you are not a Liberal.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rajesh
October 22, 2018
I would really like to answer to many of the points here, but am really curious about one comment.
@Mank – I would be very delighted to know about those sources who say Hindus would soon become a minority in Kerala. Muslims and Christians have always been between 20 – 24% of the state’s population and if you include the tribals, then the remaining percentage is made up of Hindus. (Likewise for India the Musllim population has always remained 12 – 13% or so). Kerala has been the only state where 2 other major religions of the country has been around 20% each for very very long time. There has been a historical equilibrium in this mix
I have some die hard and soft RSS friends who keep on shouting ( couple of them have even said recently am an anti national and should go to Pakistan), to me for the last 3 decades, (typical RSS propagands) about how Muslims would overtake Hindus in India, even these die harders have never said something like this. So its very interesting for me and would be glad to read it, as long as its not an RSS source.
For me it just sounds like another typical ‘puli varunne claim’ by Upper castes that they suffer the most, but will do everything possible to make sure that the caste statistics (from the socio economic and caste census 2011) is never published as it will open up their hollow claims. Have ever wondered why the caste census was last published only many many decades back??
🙂 You really mean an anti Hindu media ??? When there is clear proof that our main stream media are obsessed with Hindutva and Modi ( https://thewire.in/media/cobrapost-sting-big-media-houses-say-yes-to-hindutva-black-money-paid-news )
and they are absolutely happy to abide by the dictates of Duryodhana/Shakuni duo (https://thewire.in/media/punya-prasun-bajpai-abp-news-narendra-modi) who stoop so low as to even block the satellite links of a channel who wont abide???
LikeLiked by 1 person
sanjana
October 22, 2018
Unlike Jammu and Kashmir, hindus from other states can buy property, work and have equal rights in Kerala. And there are 3 religions unlike two which maybe worrisome for some. 3 always balances and there will always be religious harmony which is unique for Kerala.
LikeLike
MANK
October 22, 2018
Rajesh, I don’t want to turn this blog space into Communist vs RSS battlefield. This is why I stay away from these discussions, before you know you are sucked into it so much that you end up branding each other commie and sanghi. Since you are determined to dismiss everything mentioned as RSS propaganda or upper caste conspiracy, I don’t think much discussion is possible anyway
As for the anti Hindu media, just check out the whole sabarimala coverage by the various mainstream media channels, from Asianet to mathrubhumi, last week and continuing. It was and is disgusting to say the least
LikeLike
Rad Mahalikudi
October 22, 2018
History repeats itself – I refer to arguments being made ‘why one shouldn’t disturb the status quo’. To me that is really concerning. If you go back and read about the for and against arguments on allowing oppressed caste entry in to temples, they were all similar to what we are hearing now – it is God’s wish, mentioned in holy scriptures, they don’t need to enter, they just need to pass by the temple, etc. What I read few years back when current case was going on (someone from Kerala can confirm this) is that when Travancore Maharaja passed the verdict allowing the entry in 1936, other kings (cochin, Malabar, Panthalam?) were not in agreement and one of them actually classified all people of Travancore as untouchables in retort to the verdict. It took 6 years, 1942, for things to change. We keep saying relationship with God is personal and it is between God and Devotee. But all major religions have put enough barriers between God and devotee with all kinds of rituals and transactions. Agree with Madan that all major religions require some rightsizing.
Allow me to humour your guys. Since this is a movie blog, last few days I have been playing this climax in my mind. What if? What if, instead of protests we are seeing now, women devotees were given red carpet welcome, given special darshan on Oct 18, the first day? Well planned with 500+ women visiting in a procession along with men following them? That would have been a statement. A BOLD statement. Like the goosebumps climax scene in Kaakka Muttai, when the two kids climb the pizza joint steps. We missed a great opportunity IMO.
LikeLike
mayaatales
October 22, 2018
It’s not like women are barred from all temples! It is one temple in a remote jungle that has this particular rule. Why are people so bothered about this. How does it negatively affect anyone, except maybe egos of some women? And people comparing to triple talaq or Sati, again these were common practices all across and had a negative impact on women/kids/society.
Meanwhile, let us see something that is really discriminatory and has a huge societal impact.
Hindus do not have institutional control in India.
They do not have the freedom to run their own educational institutions nor the freedom to run their temples. Even state funded minority institutions do not have to follow any government regulations like reservations or RTE.
How is this helping the marginalized? When most of the top educational institutions are minority run? Imagine – 16 out of 18 medical colleges in Kerala are minority institutions, but do not implement reservation – how is this helping the poor SC/ST kids?
Next, imagine the crores that the government earns from the temples. Imagine that there were high quality schools, colleges, hospitals that Sabarimala trust could run – how many kids could be uplifted.
Now – compare the 2 situations and tell me where our focus should be?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rocky
October 22, 2018
Just like Indira Gandhi used to blame everything on the CIA, here everyone just seem to blame everything on the RSS.
LikeLike
Rocky
October 22, 2018
Touching video-
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 22, 2018
Lankesh, since my being ‘savarna’ seems to be the crux of the issue, I really can’t refute that argument. Yes, I’m savarna by an accident of birth. So, yes, just by being so, I come from a place of privilege.
And yes, I equated a with b. I already explained why. Someone had mentioned Sati earlier and that stuck in my brain, and that late at night, it became the analogy. Remove that, and put any social change you wish, and my argument remains the same – change was never welcomed universally. Every change that challenged the status quo was met with protests at the time.
About China, Greece, Japan, etc. No, those cultures do NOT have equitable societies. Women’s rights in those very-patriarchal societies is abysmal. As late as 1995, when my husband visited Japan, the general attitude of even educated Japanese men was that there were only two places for women – the kitchen and the bed.
As I have consistently said – I can see both sides of this issue. I can see why a majority of Hindus in Kerala feel the way they do, but I can also see why the court’s decision is one brick on the way to social freedom. And being in the middle, objectively, is an uncomfortable position to be.
That slam against ‘liberals’? If liberals are so bothered only about the temples and not about unemployment, public sanitation, equal pay for equal work – let me turn this over and ask: why are people who don’t identify as liberals (which is always, always! used as a pejorative) not bothered about public sanitation, equal pay for equal work, unemployment, safety, etc? Why are they so hung up on the issue of a temple and on renaming cities and towns and railway stations instead of on all the issues that the ‘liberals’ don’t seem to be bothered by?
LikeLike
hari
October 22, 2018
There are few “Karthik” temples in Maharashtra (that I know off) where women are not allowed, they are allowed only during Karthik Purnima, we should all fight for entry to those temples as well. Wait, nobody will get any coverage fighting for it, so yeah let’s focus back on Sabarimala.
LikeLike
Madan
October 22, 2018
I find it most interesting that Dalit issues are pressed into service when the subject of women demanding entry into Sabarimala comes up but there was barely a whisper about it here when India Today had done an expose showing temple after temple denying entry to Dalits. Guess they too fall under the few lakh black sheep amongst the benevolent millions. Like those other black sheep who beat up Dalits in public. Oh wait, I forgot, I ought to mention every conceivable ill in every religion before I get to talk about my own, right?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tambi Dude
October 22, 2018
“Just like Indira Gandhi used to blame everything on the CIA, here everyone just seem to blame everything on the RSS.”
RSS is accused of fear mongering. How are liberals doing any better.
LikeLike
Tambi Dude
October 22, 2018
Coming soon to a company in your town/city
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/tesco-worker-sues-chain-for-20k-after-colleague-broke-wind-in-his-face-a3965131.html
LikeLike
Isai
October 22, 2018
The Tamil word ‘Theethu’ is used when restricting people from worshipping. This is often incorrectly translated as ‘Impure’. In order to understand the meaning of the word ‘Theethu’, one can examine all contexts in which it is used. The word ‘Theethu’ is not just applicable to women/lower castes but is also applicable to the upper castes and even to the head priest of the temple. For example, when a relative say a paternal cousin dies, the person has theethu for 10 days during which they are expected to mourn for the dead. During this period, even if they are the head priest, they are not allowed inside the temple. This is because it is believed that during this period, you are not in the required frame of mind and body to perform worship. Now, what can be more natural and unavoidable than death? So, women who believe that they are being discriminated for menstruation should ask themselves these questions: Are they in the ideal/normal frame of body and mind anytime during their periods, in order to perform worship?
LikeLike
Isai
October 22, 2018
Some people tend to equate restriction of entry to lower castes with the restriction of women during periods. Gender and menstruation are natural phenomenon whereas the concept of caste itself is arbitrary and discriminatory. Unlike Sabarimala Ayyappan, whose identity and worship methods are associated with one particular gender, there were no customs/evidence to suggest that the gods in restricted temples were associated with only the so called upper castes.
For ritual ‘purity’ (for lack of a more suitable word), the period between bathing and completion of worship is considered most important. During this period ALONE, one who has bathed and is going to the temple for worship is required not to touch anyone who has not bathed or who is currently involved in other activities. This ‘theethu’ has nothing to do with restriction of temple entry to lower castes which was rather a question of privilege. In the bygone eras, castes used to fight for all kind of privileges, some outright silly like right to ride a horse, right to use a white umbrella etc. and also for some critical privileges like access to common wells/ponds/streets. Right to enter the temple, right to get ‘Parivattam (crown like thingy)’, right to pull the temple chariot etc. were part of these disputed privileges. Restriction of entry in Sabarimala temple is not a question of privilege but is rather related to the concept of ‘theethu’ mentioned above. And this ‘theethu’ is applicable to both men and women, of all castes, albeit during different periods.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 22, 2018
Madan, Word! I love the faux concern for Dalits. And the whataboutism. What about Muslims? Christians? Greeks? Chinese? Pakistanis?
Man, the counter-arguments are getting progressively strawmen-like. And of course, the easiest way to win an argument seems to be to label anyone who goes against the status quo ‘liberal’ and ‘elite’. Finis!
Isai – the period between bathing and completion of worship is considered most important. During this period ALONE, one who has bathed and is going to the temple for worship is required not to touch anyone who has not bathed or who is currently involved in other activities.
The accepted practice in our temples in Kerala is that we do not enter the temples without first bathing and purifying ourselves. And that goes for both morning and evening pujas. Today, I see busloads of ‘temple tourists’ being disgorged in front of our temples at all hours of the day and night. Forget the period between ‘bathing and completion of worship’ none of them bathe before entering the temple. In fact, depending on where they have travelled from, they probably haven’t bathed for more than 24 hours.
Entering the temple at the same time as them is to subject ourselves to an odoriferous experience. If we were to object to that – as against our traditional practices – would anyone agree?
Incidentally, at one point, you weren’t even allowed to enter with ‘stitched’ clothing – hence the mundu for the men and the mundum randam mundum for women. Does anyone follow that? Or has convenience and practicality enabled us to drop that practice?
Going to Sabarimala once involved keeping the strict 41-day vow of celibacy and a lot of ritual and daily worship. Many, many, hundreds of devotees who throng the shrine today don’t bother.
So it’s okay to drop some ‘traditions’ but others have to be followed rigorously?
Again, I’m Hindu. I’m Malayali. And as someone insisted on making that the mark of my caste identity – I’m a savarna. We are ‘ambalavasis‘ – temple dwellers. Brought up in that cultural ethos and with Bhagawathy as our kuladaivam, I wouldn’t step into Sabarimala because I grew up with that ban. And so I can understand the emotions of the people who also grew up with that same culture.
But if someone from my background (or anywhere else) wants to pray to Ayyappan at his abode in the Sabari hills, I will stand by her desire to do so. Because social change has always been challenged by those who are complacent with the status quo.
Also: The ‘right to ride a horse’ is not ‘silly’. Especially when that right was decided by accident of birth.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Arjun
October 22, 2018
“They do not have the freedom to run their own educational institutions nor the freedom to run their temples. Even state funded minority institutions do not have to follow any government regulations like reservations or RTE.
How is this helping the marginalized? When most of the top educational institutions are minority run? Imagine – 16 out of 18 medical colleges in Kerala are minority institutions, but do not implement reservation – how is this helping the poor SC/ST kids?”
Well, then it is to the credit of the minorities, mostly christians, that they have taken such an active interest in building educational institutions. Look, Hindus have historically never bothered about educating the masses, let alone women and backward castes. Is it the fault of the Christians that they step in where the majority and govt have utterly failed. Besides, doesn’t Kerala have 100% literacy? So despite not having to implement reservations or RTE, it appears the christians have done a pretty good job in educating the depressed classes. We hardly hear of crimes against dalits in Kerala, in general their socio-economic status is much better than what it was 100 years ago. I assume many also go on to become doctors “despite” 16 out of 18 medical colleges being run by minorities.
LikeLike
Arjun
October 22, 2018
“Speaking of defining moments, in the run up to 2014 a lot of people cited Nostradamus predicting that this period would mark a major turning point for India. No idea whether he really did predict that but maybe years from now people will look back and realize it was a turning point from where things got worse.”
Now that is just silly hyperbole. Fact is, India has, since independence been a communally charged cesspool functioning for and by the upper castes. There was initially a glimmer of hope with Nehru’s progressiveness and scientific temper, but he neither had the vision nor temperament to usher in modernity and progress the way an Ataturk or Lee Kuan Yew did in their respective countries. Congress of 70s and 80s was just as bad as the BJP today. Rajiv Gandhi openly flirted with RSS and made several communally charged pitches in the run up to the Babri masjid demolition including calling for a ram mandir to be built on the site. Also the anti-Sikh massacre, Hashimpura….the list goes on and on. BJP and Modi are but the next piece in the continuum.
LikeLike
Arjun
October 22, 2018
One other thing.. this perhaps belongs in the metoo thread– While I have high regard for Kerala christians for the aforestated reasons, I really feel it;s high they rein in on their errant clergy as is happening in the west now, in particular the devious Bishop Franco –
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/rape-accused-bishop-franco-mulakkal-given-grand-welcome-jalandhar-90142
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/father-kuriakose-who-testified-against-bishop-franco-nun-rape-case-found-dead-90347
LikeLiked by 1 person
Lankesh
October 22, 2018
@Mustard in hot oil
Being Savarna/Avarna is not the crux of the issue, being self-centred is. You had equated Sabarimala and Sati when talking about moving towards an equitable society. When I questioned it’s appropriateness, you mentioned that you were talking about women’s issues. When I commented about more critical women’s issues like unequal pay for equal work, lack of sanitation facilities and safety for women, you have now reduced it to ‘changes are not universally welcomed’. Ok.
I hadn’t asked if you consider countries like Greece, Japan to have equitable societies. I had asked ‘Suppose you have to evaluate a country’s gender equality on a point-scale of 1-100, how many points would you reduce for say a country X where Sati is commonly practiced and say for a country Y where one among thousand temples doesn’t allow women.’
I don’t consider liberal to be a pejorative word. But, I totally dislike any kind of fear mongering/emotional manipulation (whether from RSS or from the left-liberal) that would stop me from objectively and statistically comparing the incumbent and past governments.
Now, I would give Zero credit to a govt for changing the name of a city/station. At the same time, I would also oppose the attempt to portray this as a sign of armageddon.
I had only said that if it is women’s equality that you are fighting for, shouldn’t you begin with and focus on more serious issues like lack of safety and sanitation facilities for women, unequal employment opportunities etc.
LikeLike
Swati
October 23, 2018
sari social freedom hindu dharma mai he dekhai deti hai, logo ko. Kahi aur jaa ke nara-morcha nahi nikal sakte toh phir hum pe havi ho jate hai. Che-che. Shame on these who are hell bent of destroying tradition and playing with emotions.
LikeLike
Madan
October 23, 2018
@Arjun Ah, classic Bannon-like dystopia right there. Was always a communal mess anyway. Sure. Now give me one reason why this govt is going to make it better.
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 23, 2018
I had only said that if it is women’s equality that you are fighting for, shouldn’t you begin with and focus on more serious issues like lack of safety and sanitation facilities for women, unequal employment opportunities etc.
Since the topic of discussion here is women being allowed into the shrine, I discussed that. Why don’t you open an OTT on all those other issues, and I’ll put my two paise in there as well. Deal?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Siva
October 23, 2018
Lankesh: ” @Mustard in hot oil ”
So now we’re resorting not just to labeling with caste, but also name calling?
Terrific!
LikeLiked by 1 person
sanjana
October 23, 2018
Hindus are quite flexible and they remain so most of the time unless politicians want it otherwise. Once crossing the seas was a great sin for brahmins and they came around it after doing some penance after returning. For every tradition that is disobeyed there is penance in the form of deed or offering. There was one story of a man killing a cat and was asked to pay an offering in the form of a gold cat to a brahmin! That is an extreme case like blood money. Many people who I know personally were traditional once and they have become quite adaptive. I will call it adaptive than liberalised.
Women also stop menstruating at a relatively younger age due to some surgical procedure or some other problem. So that 50 years bar is too restrictive. And women dont undertake journeys when they have periods due to some reasons like excessive bleeding and tiredness due to it Whisper or not. Many women play with their own health taking pills to avoid being on periods on auspicious occasions. This is playing with nature.
LikeLike
Lankesh
October 23, 2018
@Anu, @Siva
Sincere apologies for the name calling.
No excuses.
I would be happy if you could give a direct response to the query that I had raised instead of going into a tangent (ex: Greece, Japan query).
Now, I had not resorted to caste labelling. Savarna refers to someone who usually wouldn’t have faced evils like untouchability. Now if I say “Being an NRI, you are not aware of how volatile the ground situation in Kerala is.”, I don’t think I am labelling you. I am just pointing out your unawareness and reasoning that it could be due to the circumstance of you currently being an NRI. Here, your unawareness is the crux of the issue, not your NRI status. Similarly for the Savarna comment. But, Anu, who uses the caste-based surname warrier and who called herself as an Ambalavasi in these comments, misunderstood her Savarna status as the crux and went into a tangent, as she tends to.
LikeLike
Arjun
October 23, 2018
” Now give me one reason why this govt is going to make it better.”
None. But that’s no reason to look back at pre-2014 with rose-tinted eyes.
LikeLike
Madan
October 23, 2018
Lankesh: Oh, so now chronicling the absurd saga of name changes in Mumbai is fear mongering? Can you please quote one sentence of mine where I said changing names of stations will lead to armageddon? Wait, don’t, go right ahead clutching at as many straws as you like. I live there (Mumbai) and will rant to my heart’s content about it. Because while all this renaming is going on, the whole fucking city is now dug up for metro work and road travel is almost impossible in some stretches in rush hour. I know because one such stretch got blocked last Thursday without warning and I walked the distance from one major signal to another (15 min in brisk walking) and the traffic didn’t budge an inch the entire time. Why should I spare your precious feelings? I won’t. Did they seriously not anticipate what would happen if they didn’t stagger the work? No, because they only apply their mind to things like renaming stations. The only thing I can do in this situation is laugh at their stupidity which I will do over and over and more so if it actually aggravates you. But they are laughing all the way to the bank anyway.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Lankesh
October 23, 2018
@Madan
I was not reacting to your comment on name changing of stations. I had reacted to this comment which followed your comment about name changing:
“Madan’s posts mirror my own thoughts, a foreboding of evil, a feeling of despondency and helplessness. Like LOTR, I feel the heat of mordor bearing upon us, saroun is getting stronger by the day, he can feel it. The south is falling, his evil hordes are at the gates waiting to overrun the place. There is no one to bear the ring, all the contenders are wimps.saroun’s victory is assured, he will reign indefinitely.
In the history of a nation, there are defining moments which guide its course, I guess we are witnessing one such moment, the time when we all changed for the worse. Changes in attitude are incremental and subtle, like the proverbial frog in a pot of water on a stove, it will be too late when we realize that we are being cooked.”
There is no love lost between me and this government, my friend. So, please rant all you want. But, I want people to take the voting decision in next election logically, by evaluating the pros and cons of this government versus that of the previous governments and the credibility of other alternatives. I don’t want that decision to be guided by fear mongering/emotional manipulation either by RSS or by left-leaners.
LikeLike
Madan
October 23, 2018
@Arjun: I wasn’t doing that. I know, you know what things were like in 2014 when this govt was about to be voted to power. Arguably those very conditions propelled a big mandate for BJP because nobody wanted another coalition govt. I am just saying people made a big bet on BJP hoping they would be the silver bullet and now that it isn’t they get very defensive and ignore valid criticisms of the govt.
LikeLike
Madan
October 23, 2018
Lankesh: That is one way to vote. The other is to think about who we really vote for. And that is an MP. Not BJP, not Congress and definitely not personalities like Modi. These banners become justifications to vote for an MP whose name you don’t know and that is where we are going wrong. Vote for the MP who will serve your constituency best. If even a significant chunk of voters did this, our democracy would function much better. We have to get out of big narratives and think local. So, basically, I don’t care if Modi is the only Prime Minister alternative available. If the MP they field is not as good as the one of some other party, they won’t get my vote. I can tell you upfront that Rajan Vichare is busy in Thane and hasn’t visited Navi Mumbai very many times if at all. So why shouldn’t I vote for the Naik family who are corrupt but have done a lot for the satellite city? And that is more or less what I have decided to do. If that robs BJP of precious seats that would get them to 272, too bad. Maybe they should educate their party members not to act so entitled next time.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rajesh
October 23, 2018
16 out of 18 medical colleges in Kerala are minority institutions, — Am afraid this is a wrong static, probably its one of those fake stats spread out by the hIndutva volunteer group (the ones about which Amit Shah shamelessly boasted – https://thewire.in/politics/amit-shah-bjp-fake-social-media-messages)
NSS, SNDP, GSB groups and others in addition to Amrita etcc they run every thing from primary schools to professional colleges and has a huge sway in matters. They even have aided schools and colleges, where Govt pays the salary of the teachers, but its the management (NSS, SNDP etc) who collect anything from 20lakhs to 50 lakhs as donation for a teacher and that too without any reservations. This is a huge topic and going indepth will reveal how hollow all this claims are about Hindus suffering.
True unlike other states there are many Christian educational institutions in Kerala. But all this literacy stats of Kerala are also thanks to them. People give a lot of credit to the Travancore kings for making education for every one. This was only because of there fear of Christianity. When Kerala was this lunatic asylum, it was the missionary groups who started imparting education to the most poorest communities, especially in the coastal belt of Latin Christians (as they didnt had the lineage of Brahmin coverted and hence faced issues in society) and these poor joined Christianty with pleasure as someone was treating them like human beings.
Kerala owe a lot to Christianity for their present status in education and health. The upper castes will always keep complaining as they really dont like losing their exclusive privileges of trying to be the only intelligentsia of this society and they hate the term equality.
LikeLike
Rajesh
October 23, 2018
In one stage Kerala was the most Brahminised state and it was no wonder Vivekananda termed ONLY us as lunatic asylum, and all those changes from then to now, happened with so much struggles. Upper castes always made issues for all these changes. to mention just a couple
As late as 1914, they prevented Ezhava girls from govt. schools citing the school was so close to Kodungalloor temple.
When women began entering temples wearing a blouse, they even threw stones at them outside the temple in Trippunithura in 1915.
All those reanaissance leaders may it be Ayyankaali or P Krishnapilla or AKG and hundreded of others, they were all brutally beaten up by upper castes during those struggles.
The struggle to cover the breasts actually lasted nearly 3 centuries. As late as 1956, YES 1956, the temple committee of Veloor Manimala kaavu issued an order that women who take the thaalam (thaalappoli – a female procession) should not cover the breasts!!!
For me, all these protests have been historically typical response by the Upper castes of Kerala, who are hurt only when their patriarchal norms have been challenged.
LikeLike
Kay
October 23, 2018
“I had only said that if it is women’s equality that you are fighting for, shouldn’t you begin with and focus on more serious issues like lack of safety and sanitation facilities for women, unequal employment opportunities etc.”
Resorting to a bit of filmy tone Yaara paathu enna kelvi ketutinga, sir?! Avanga yaru theriyuma?
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 23, 2018
@ Lankesh:
I would be happy if you could give a direct response to the query that I had raised instead of going into a tangent (ex: Greece, Japan query).
You brought up Greece and Japan; I responded, and now I am the one going off on a tangent?
Here, your unawareness is the crux of the issue, not your NRI status. Similarly for the Savarna comment.
Really? So, because I live abroad, I’m unaware of what’s really happening? In my comments, I gave the reasons for my opinions. Yes, living away also gives me a slightly more objective look at what’s happening. As I have said multiple times, I can understand both sides, even empathise with both.
But, Anu, who uses the caste-based surname warrier
Nope. Not my surname, it’s my husband’s. Yes, I use it for non-legal matters because it’s easier than explaining why I don’t have a surname, or having to expand my initial to a name that 99% of the people wangle.
and who called herself as an Ambalavasi in these comments, misunderstood her Savarna status as the crux
I called myself ambalavasi to give context to the reason for my thinking. I do not identify as one. Being born into such a family gives me the perspective of thousands of protesters who are against the entry of women into the shrine. To me, it’s the same as saying ‘I’m a Malayali.’ In a context which needs that explanation.
I don’t go around mentioning ‘I’m a Malayali’ otherwise. Neither do I identify as ‘Warrier’. Having said that, however, I do not apologise for using my husband’s last name in certain contexts. (Funny, since he is not a Warrier! 🙂 ) There are millions of Indians of all castes and creeds who have a caste name as surname.
and went into a tangent, as she tends to.
Ah. The irony. My comments in this post were all about the topic we were discussing. You were the person who brought in ‘Oh, unemployment’ ,’Oh, equal pay for equal work’, ‘Oh, dalits.’, ‘Oh, Greece, Japan’. And because I responded, I am the person who went off on a tangent??
Similarly, yes, there are hundreds of problems that beset women in this society. And yes, I will fight for each and every one of them. Here, we were discussing one problem. Just because there are bigger problems to fight doesn’t mean the lesser ones don’t merit our attention. Here, BR opened this topic for discussion, so we discussed this. If I had discussed those other problems then I would have been going off on a tangent.
As I said, open an OTT on all the other major social ills and I will discuss those.
@Siva, thank you.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Isai
October 23, 2018
Anu – Regarding your comment about not bathing etc., it is difficult to monitor since you really don’t know if they had bathed or not. It could be the truth or it could be an assumption based on prejudice. I feel unfeasibility of thoroughly implementing a rule/following a tradition is not sufficient grounds for not having a rule/tradition itself.It is a bit like arguing all traffic signals should be removed just because a few people always jump the signal anyways. In other temples, women are not asked about their periods, it is upto them to follow since monitoring is impractical. Similar is the case for the men not following the 41 day ritual. But in case of women in Sabarimala, we do know that they would definitely have a period within 41/48 days, so equating this with the above men’s case may not be appropriate.
Regarding the horse comment, the word I had wanted to use was ‘trivial’ (instead of silly) as opposed to critical privileges like access to common ponds etc.
LikeLike
Swati
October 23, 2018
While they are so proactive in ensuring smokeless Diwali, Waterless Holi, Dahi handi height, who can go to a Sabarimala temple and their heart bleeds for animal in jallkattu and entertain every sort of PIL on certain issues and give swift sentences
MiLords don’t even want to entertain a case on bloodless Eid Infact Bombay HC didn’t allowed beheading of Goats on Roof tops in housing societies They said Goats can be cut anywhere at EID Let the rivers of blood flow everywhere .
Libi, Mary Sweety and Fatima of kiss of love fame…which hindu Kerala woman wants to enter the temple? So let Kerala hindu woman protest if they want to. And let Fatima protest mosque issue if she is for real. And Mary Sweety the raped nun issue.
Hypocrisy need to end.
This is not to be viewed with misogyny, bigotry, discrimination because there are possible only 3 or 4 such temples in all of india. The women have the highest respect in HIndu Dharma. Ayyappa Swami doesn’t not say women are impure or dirty like they would say in other abrahamic relgions! Where as none of the dargah or mosques would allow women to pray along side the men. If a woman licks a pus ridden man for 1000s of years she still won’t be same status as men, says Islam.
LikeLike
Swati
October 23, 2018
https://www.facebook.com/SNTSM.in/videos/2119575961624925/?tn=kCH-R&eid=ARB7sw5xLvMfrDZU1gI9WqQuvMl9iVz_BW9GdAtISDcZ51fu7SBYmuJYuF13XLabjd_IU1Ht2OSVJGXw&hc_ref=ARQlY5yLLCLz_BbvSYsR7RzcFUsgtMfAA7ST8XspZlGnI_8v6wkLzBJ-g8GVZN97_6Q&fref=nf&xts[0]=68.ARCTFsCpFX5DSURkasgtY2tHUGjr6a_kxzxk1j3I_UKYqnQs3FB9Ib7o_OcxANqhternKY3AQVqF-tH43GEljkAz44jdBLme4-OQ6nQZZSf8I6fZwWEIs_xIviJ3ADImPiq45IgnrhvXmA_Bu6mtD1s-AcIc-3RAr2dDsXfYUlfFvIZYL1Usvpye7oilKV7tYRAqZDkdCBoo2fYsc0ByaFs-a3Is4L6mikGhKzA
Vivek Oberoi. Makes lot of sense. Put energy elsewhere. Why Baradwaj even has this blog post. Makes no sense (to me).
LikeLike
Lankesh
October 23, 2018
@Anu
In my previous comment, I had referred to both you and Shiva. I think this has resulted in some confusion. Let me explain.
My apology was to both of you. The next para about Japan was addressed to you. The subsequent para was addressed to Shiva (since he has raised the comment about caste labelling). That is why you are referred to in 3rd person in that para.
I had just used an analogy in that para (about NRI). I am new to the comment section of this blog and don’t know where you or Shiva live. I had just used a random analogy to explain to Shiva. But it seems you had misunderstood and again flew off on a tangent. I leave it to you and any other readers to decide if this has not happened previously in the comments related to Sati, Savarna and Japan. I again apologise if I have caused you any hurt. Since I am unable to establish a clear communication channel with you, I will stop addressing any more comments to you. God bless!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Siva
October 26, 2018
@Anu You are most welcome 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Swati
October 26, 2018
This is from ground zero. Wonder why the “liberals” of blogs are suddenly silent. Yeh chuppi…yeh sannata…sab chor hai.
This is #Kerala
#Ayyappa devotees arrested for #SaveSabarimala agitation are brought to court in manacles and chains as if they are hardened criminals.
Scene at Pala. Court remands them for 14 days.
Midnight knock : Many of the 110 arrested were dragged from houses at midnight.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 28, 2018
Swati, I live in the US and hadn’t caught the news. So I’m not deliberately being silent. Or at all. That so many were arrested and there are allegations of being framed is true. However, not even the rabid right-wing Hindu Post, which otherwise describes the arrests as ‘like criminals’, claims that the people were brought to the court in manacles and chains.
And while you’re hyperventilating over ‘liberals’ being silent, please be aware that one of your own, Rahul Easwar, proudly proclaimed that he and his cohort were willing to ‘cut their hands and spill blood in the temple’ so the shrine would be closed. So his idea of Hindu devotee is one who doesn’t mind desecrating the temple for his own ends. But a woman of menstruating age shouldn’t enter. Never mind that no woman is going to make that 8km trek up the hill while they are menstruating.
Please stop exaggerating. The arrests are shameful enough without having to add mirch masala.
LikeLike
Madan
October 28, 2018
“Wonder why the “liberals” of blogs are suddenly silent. ” – Thought this convo was done. As you said, this is a blog space. Not a forum where threads go on unto eternity unless they’re locked. Anyway, Amit Shah went and poured more petrol in Kerala, so enjoy. So much for welcoming the verdict earlier; they’re pretty brazenly two faced now because they know the bhakts will defend them even so. As they have in the Alok Verma case. I posted a clip of Subramaniam Swamy calling Verma’s ousting a joke in a political group in FB and there is total silence from the bhakts. Kyun yeh sannata, sab chor hain?
LikeLike
tambidude2
October 29, 2018
They have gone silent because blog owner has told them that they look too intelligent for forums 🙂
Anyhow agreed with Madan. After a while the discussions became boring.
LikeLike
Swati
October 29, 2018
That is a piss poor defense statement….I was suddenly not reading news. Woah.
And 2000 Hindus get arrested for Peaceful Protests.
Unfortunately, that’s how Secularism works in India.
IF 5 naxals arrested – democracy in danger!!
1,500 Ayyappa Devotees arrested – pin drop silence
This silence is the Real Threat to democracy.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
October 29, 2018
That is a piss poor defense statement….I was suddenly not reading news. Woah.
It wasn’t a defence because I don’t think I needed to defend myself. It was the reason. And that’s because I read most of my news about India on my laptop, and I typically disconnect on Saturdays. I don’t honestly care if you believe me or not.
About Hindus getting arrested for ‘peaceful protests’. Ha! So peaceful! The fact that many innocents got arrested is a shame, and I said that. But many of those arrested were activists who beat up women including journalists. And were busy issuing declarations about ‘desecrating the temple so it will shut down’. (That is a direct quote, by the way.)
I notice you don’t say anything about one of your own promising to desecrate a place of worship if a woman of menstruating age enters the precincts. Mind you, not a woman bleeding over the temple premises, but just someone who is in that age group.
So. A woman of menstrual age is not desecrating any temple by entering it, but this man is ready to do so – you don’t see the irony here? What respect is he showing for the shrine he claims to be part of his faith? Which believer will deliberately desecrate the place of his deeply-held religious faith?
LikeLike
Srinivas R
October 29, 2018
“And 2000 Hindus get arrested for Peaceful Protests.” – I think your definition of peaceful protest is different from the generally understood definition.
Unfortunately, this has become a political battle between Kerala govt. and the groups which want the ban. No one has come out looking good from this mess.
LikeLike
Voldemort
October 29, 2018
Unfortunately, this has become a political battle between Kerala govt. and the groups which want the ban. No one has come out looking good from this mess.
Yes. And that’s really sad. So much for an entry. Probably, there at least would’ve been peace if the verdict had not been passed at all, like so many cases that go on and on for years. Did it have to be passed so close to the elections? Or would the politicizing have been done, even if the elections were far away, or just over? Was it deliberate? Too many questions, too little answers.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Rocky
October 29, 2018
Interesting set of tweets by Arvind Sharma-
SOME REFLECTIONS ON THE UNFOLDING EVENTS AT SABARIMALA, KERALA, INDIA
At first I also thought It was a open and shut case of gender discrimination.
Then I learnt that there are eight temples in Kerala where men are not allowed and seven temples in Kerala where women are not allowed, and of course many temples frequented by both. More specifically, there is also a Sabarimala temple patronized exclusively by women and numerous Sabarimala temples open to both. This makes me wonder whether our concept of equality itself needs to be revisited, when applied to plural cultures. To give an example which is crude but which many, with whom I have discussed the issue, have found helpful:There are two ways of achieving gender equality when it comes to bathrooms. One is to provide a unisex bathroom. Thus both have the SAME bathroom for men and women. The other is to provide similarly equipped bathrooms for both of them. Now both have SIMILAR bathrooms.BOTH these arrangements seem to me to equally ensure gender equality.
It can then be argued that more homogeneous societies seem suited for what we might call MONONTHETIC EQUALITY (the first kind) and more plural societies for POLYTHETIC EQUALITY (the second kind). The struggle then in India over Sabarimala is between those Indians who prefer monothetic equality and those who prefer polythetic equality.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rocky
October 29, 2018
Rajdeep attempts to insult Hindus by equating Sati with Sabarimala traditions, gets caught in his own hate
https://www.opindia.com/2018/10/rajdeep-attempts-to-insult-hindus-by-equating-sati-with-sabarimala-traditions-gets-caught-in-his-own-hate/
LikeLike
Swati
October 29, 2018
“They have gone silent because blog owner has told them that they look too intelligent for forums” This is self-righteous, self-ongratulating, egotistic person making such a statement who has no ability to introspect or reflect on their own opinions and actions.
It is one thing to fight for Hindu women’s rights and another to have anti-something policy made up in one’s mind. Which is what this discussion reflects, reading all the comments.
LikeLike
Srinivas R
October 29, 2018
@Swati – not sure how much you have been following the comments, but the person who made the comment that you pointed out, believes the same things you accuse about secularism and liberals. He was just trying to make fun of Swara Bhaskar who made a similar comment recently.
LikeLike
Honest Raj
October 29, 2018
Rocky: While analogies are not meant to be perfect, his point is very much valid.
And, sati was definitely a part of Hindu tradition.
LikeLike
tambidude2
October 29, 2018
In case liberals missed two big events in the weekend.
1 Germany: Leftish idiot liberal Angela Merkel has announced her retirement after suffering yet another poor results in Germany’s biggest province. Right wing AFD again gained grounds.
2. Brazil: Far right president Jair Bolsanaro
LikeLike
Isai
October 29, 2018
@Honest Raj
I don’t think your comment about Sati definitely being a part of Hindu tradition is accurate.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)
“The early evidence suggests that widow-burning practice was seldom carried out in the general population.”
Now, in Ramayana, Dasaratha’s wives were alive when Rama came back 14 years after Dasaratha’s death. Kannagi, Velu Nachiyar were alive much after their Husband’s death. Sati was a practice followed selectively by few aristocratic families. In any country, in a given year, more rapes would have occurred than cases of Sati in India. Can we then say Rape is a part of any country/religion’s tradition?
On a side note, this looks like stuff for a black comedy:
“According to Diodorus the practice of sati started because Indians married for love, unlike the Greeks who favoured marriages arranged by the parents. When inevitably many of these love marriages turned sour, the woman would often poison the husband and find a new lover. To end these murders, a law was therefore instituted that the widow should either join her husband in death or live in perpetual widowhood.”
LikeLike
tambidude2
October 29, 2018
@Honest Raj: Rajdeep Sardesai is a first class idiot. Nice to know that you want to compete with him.
https://twitter.com/authoramish/status/1056496265176010752?s=19
LikeLike
Reuben
October 30, 2018
What a royal mess!
With all humility, I feel really lucky that about a decade back, I was finally able to discard the crutches of religion, faith and belief systems. Though it soothed me at times of pain and uncertainty, it also instilled a lack of clarity at looking at things.
Now, I earnestly hope that the refreshing breeze of science, reason and humanism touches everyone.
So God, if you exist, thanks for making me an agnostic.
Lastly, history is proof that, as the human understanding of happenings around them improve and as it becomes more clear as to how stuff works; the ethics, morals, practices and traditions have evolved. It is inevitable.
LikeLiked by 1 person
sanjana
October 30, 2018
He is a good hearted idiot?
LikeLike
MANK
October 30, 2018
Nope, sardesai is the worst form of bigoted idiot
But I don’t think even he can compete with the idiots at NDTV
https://www.opindia.com/2016/01/ndtvs-sabarimala-debate-high-on-anti-hindu-bigotry-low-on-content/
Whether it’s the Virulently anti modhi gang who has conflated anti modhism into anti Hinduism and hence made Hindu bashing the order of the day
– Sardesai and the nehru dynasty TV wallas- or the die hard modhi bakth Arnab”s Republican party TV who regards anything anti modhi as anti national, what is shocking is the utter ignorance, the complete apathy in understanding, the history and details regarding the sabarimala issue. The moderators and the panelists knows nothing about the issue that they are discussing. Just trotting out trademark responses and stupid analogies like the one sardesai made
LikeLiked by 2 people
Swati
October 30, 2018
@Rocky! Missed you on SS. Good to see you here.
Have you heard or read Rajeev Malhotraji’s books?
Here is an excerpt from one of his books:
The audacity of difference:
There is a way of dealing with difference anxiety that is especially dangerous, in part because it is largely invisible….I refer to the digestion of one culture by another that is carried out under the guise of a desire to assimilate, reduce difference and assert sameness in place of the less dominant culture. At the level of popular culture, India and the west may meet as equals, but at the deeper levels, where the core assumptions of a civilization reside, the playing field is tilted. Cultural appropriation gives false sense of impression of equalization.” End quote.
Without RM’s works, I would also have become, easily another sardesi or atheist. He gave me unique vision and restored my trust and faith!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Swati
October 31, 2018
Here is Rajeevji on Sabrimala.
LikeLike
Arjun
October 31, 2018
I’m wondering since when exactly did fake news champion opindia and wannabe academic Rajiv Malhotra become credible sources?
In other news, the leading saveSabarimala crusader is outed as a pervert.
https://www.ndtv.com/kerala-news/metoo-woman-in-kerala-accuses-rahul-easwar-of-sexual-abuse-activist-claims-conspiracy-1939284
Now I understand the point Rajesh made earlier here. Increasingly, it looks like this savesabarimala gang is simply an alibi for an upper caste Brahmin-Nair protest. Scratch a hindutvavadi, find a casteist pervert. No wonder Pinarayi Vijayan is not budging! He knows the protesters represent no more than 10-15% of the population, probably even less. There’s no political peril for him. Also great speech, this – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThcKH5AqspE
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rajesh
October 31, 2018
When did peaceful protesters started dragging women out of public buses and beating them and abusing them with all kind of swear words in Malayalam. One of the fm journalist is still in a Trivandrum Ayurvedic hospital taking treatments for her spine.
Its true some of these arrested people must be innocent devotees who blindly trusted NSS and RSS and got bailed right away.. But mostly they were not.
When did peaceful protesters started hurling stones at even young girls and their homes, even causing material damages, just because they made a fb post supporting SC ruling and speaking for equality.
Am not surprised at all. This is typical HIndutva way of creating a problem and digging deep to gain power. All what they hope for is a martyr from their side, so that they can start a riot in Kerala.
@Arjun – No the protesters dont even form 10% of Population. Nairs are hardly 14% of Kerala, even if their prominence in everything about Kerala is so huge, like Brahmins and Baniyas for India. And Brahmins are hardly 5 -7% (I dont have this correctly). And the whole of Nairs and Brahmins too dont support or protest.
In fact, there are more and more information coming out about the history, which was always covered up by Brahminist versions, that I know many people who are amused why they didnt know all this before:
for eg: there is clear proof that this so called Pandalam Royal family was not royal at all. They escaped from Pandiya kingdom, and some feudal Nair lords bought them land and helped them settle in Pandalam. In some time, they bought bit more land around which was Erumeli etc – forest regions – and anointed themselves as Royal. They later occupied the region of Sabarimala from the Adivasis.
Its funny that Marthanda Varma, the greatest ruler of Travancore kingdom, when he went on a war spree to conquer all the small kingdoms northwards till Kochi, he did not even bother about Pandalam, as nobody considered them as royal. 🙂
Like wise so much information is now coming out which proves Ayyappan had a very different past than what is promoted by Brahmins.
All these outpourings by Hindutva vadis about traditions and history is really ignorance covered up by what is taught as belief since childhood.
People are even shocked to know that hardly 15000 people visited Sabarimla before the Nilackal issue (a kind of ram temple movement in early 80’s) and the temple gained more prominence only after.
It is shocking that even here people are quoting ‘opindia’ , a proven Hindutva fake news creation site!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rajesh
October 31, 2018
19 Nov, 1981 MATHRUBHUMI daily reporting the increase in number of women devotees in Sabarimala – photo and report link below – stating they didnt climb the 18 steps but used the northern entrance for darshan.
https://www.azhimukham.com/trending-women-entry-in-sabarimala-an-old-news-by-mathrubhumi/
🙂
LikeLike
V Subha
October 31, 2018
Well Said Rajesh. So much of Ayypappa’s and even other gods like Muruga’s history has been distorted and falsified by brahmins. Did you know that the so called Rakshasi ‘Mahishi’ was actually the sister of Vavar? She and Ayyappa had got married under the guidance of Vavar in Erumelly. The ‘Pettathulludal’ dance performed in Erumely is actually ‘Oppanna’, a dance performed by Muslims of Kerala during wedding. But when brahmins came to Kerala, they didn’t like the fact that Ayyappa and Muslim Vavar were relatives. That is why they started portraying Ayyappa as a bachelor. Since they couldn’t entirely remove Vavar’s history, they made him a disciple of Ayyappa and his sister now became a ‘Rakshasi’. Like this only, brahmins have corrupted the entire history of all our gods so that the brahmins can be portrayed as superior and powerful.
LikeLike
TambiDude
October 31, 2018
@rajesh: “It is shocking that even here people are quoting ‘opindia’ , a proven Hindutva fake news creation site!”
Yeah, scroll , wire and theprint are all proven non biased sites. Why not? They are liberal sites.
LikeLike
Rocky
October 31, 2018
Thanks Swati, No I have not read any of his books.
LikeLike
TambiDude
October 31, 2018
One of the best compilation of the fork tongued liberal media.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rajesh
October 31, 2018
@Tambidude
🙂 Friend please look which journalists are behind Scroll, Wire or Print and then why dont you decide for yourself. Please dont say these journalists are all from Nehruvian camp or something like that. These people criticized Congress govts too, when they had to.
For Wire, BR might be able to vouch for one of its main guys as they must have been colleagues in The Hindu till 2013/14.
When the ‘great’ Amit shah himself idiotically declared in public that they are able to make false rumours into truths, please do ask questions on what you read from their sources.
or please try and learn more about the school of journalism run by RSS. (one of the best kept secrets in India)
LikeLike
Rajesh
October 31, 2018
@V Subha
I had mentioned few things, Brahminisation of Ayyappa, in my previous posts here 🙂
There used to be a Shasranamarchana recital in Shabarimala till a few years back. The last sloka ended something like
Poorna Pushkala amba bhaage
Harihara sudhano sharanam
– meaning something like – Sharanam to Harihara Puthran who sit together with Poorna and Pushkala (those 2 are the wives of Dharma Sashta, the original idol in Sabarimala temple)
The DB changed the name of the temple to Ayyappa temple only in 2016, in an attempt to prove women should be banned in the temple of a Brahmachari god.
Dharma Shasta was no Brahmachari. It is another matter that no Vedas or Thantrasamuchaya (the book used by all Brahminised temples in Kerala for their rituals) says a Brahmachari should not see women..
It is even another matter that Thantrasamuchaya or its second version does not even mention Ayyappa among Kerala gods!!
And this tradition (women entry) at its oldest form is only since 1951, and in its modern law based since only 1991.
Lakshmi Rajeev a prominent Kerala Hindu (not hindutva) writer have said she has been there many times under the invitation of thantri. In 2013, Thantri’s own daughter was there for 5 days, which created a little furore in Kerala. Many other women from privileged families too have been to Sabarimala since 1991.
What is funny is that Upper castes have opened out a box of ‘classified’ information, unintentionally though, in their eagerness to place Brahminism above constitution. The same people whom they did not want to have such information are now getting informed, thanks to them.
LikeLike
Rocky
October 31, 2018
Tambi- that was a hilarious compilation, too good.
Thanks for sharing.
LikeLike
TambiDude
October 31, 2018
@rajesh: You think I was born yesterday. If Congress rule was bashed as much as they are bashing the current BJP rule, no one will be rooting for their return in 2019. No one will offer excuse for the Gandhi family.
I am not a RSS person. I am pro India only.
Actually I want Cong to prosper, because healthy democracy needs healthy competition. India can not afford one party rule. However Cong needs to wipe out Gandhi family and reboot themselves with new leaders who rise above dubious secularism and put country’s interest first.
LikeLike
TambiDude
October 31, 2018
@rajesh:
Why did all three (Wire, Print and Scroll) came into existence after Ram Rajya ended on 25-May-2014. Check when they started. That alone disproves your stinking gas that they were anti congress too.
Opindia and Swarajya came for a reason. The media ecosystem was infested with liberal runts who just had to push their agenda. I couldn’t care less if truck runs over them.
Note that all 3 are only free sites which means their sources of revenue are highly dubious . World wide, only sites behind paywall are making money from digital platform.
I am not a big fan of Swarjaya. I only like certain articles. However I subscribe to them, mainly because they need financial help. They have no shame in admitting that without subscription money they can not survive. How the eff are Print and Wire able to survive without paywall support.
BJP govt should look at their finances and find out who is their sugar daddy.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rajesh
October 31, 2018
@Tambidue – That alone disproves your stinking gas that they were anti congress too –
sorry, if I was not clear enough. I meant those journalists who started Wire etc. For eg: Sidharth Varadarajan used to criticise the UPA govt strongly in The HIndu,
Our mainstream has turned from being watchdogs to lapdogs since 2014. Most of these renowned journalists left their media owners once they realised this..
Yes Tambidude they did, the BJP govt have already done everything to stop all kinds of media houses who write against them. They even block satellite links of channels. They have already tried to find out the money behind all these watch dogs. In fact income tax raid is one of their major weapons in making sure the mainstream media corporates follow their wish.
You might want to remember, a decade back, event the Congress govt did try to find the income source behind their biggest critic – Tehelka. All govts do.
LikeLike
Rajesh
October 31, 2018
This is a really interesting information.
In the book Native life of Travancore by Samuel Mateer, 1862 – Mateer mentions the name of the priest in the then Sabarimala temple as Naalanaari Arayan. Arayan is from the Malayarayan tribe, who is now going to court demanding the return of the temple and land, which was occupied from them.
All this is turning so interesting 🙂
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
October 31, 2018
Rajiv Malhotra? The guy who The Onion is a satirical magazine and tweeted out Greek civilization was fabricated, admits Western historians. What will Indian secularists do now?
The problem? The article he linked to, in his tweet, was this: https://www.theonion.com/historians-admit-to-inventing-ancient-greeks-1819571808
He didn’t even seem to know that The Onion is a satirical magazine. And this is the guy who’s a visiting professor at JNU now. SMH
LikeLiked by 1 person
TambiDude
November 1, 2018
@rajesh: “Our mainstream has turned from being watchdogs to lapdogs since 2014. Most of these renowned journalists left their media owners once they realised this..”
Are you making things up as it goes. So Siddhart left Hindu because it became a lapdog of BJP after the end of raam-rajya??? Hindu is still virulently anti bjp.
Before he started print, Shekhar Gupta was in Indian Express.
”
Under his leadership, The Indian Express won the Vienna-based International Press Institute’s Award for Outstanding Journalism in the Public Interest thrice- the first time for its coverage of the Gujarat riots of 2002, the second time for uncovering the Bihar flood relief scam in 2009 and the third time for its sustained investigation into the Malegaon and Modasa blasts of 2008 and the alleged role of extremists and organisations
”
So not one investigation against congress (2004-2014).
Like all liberals you seem to be high on gas and low on quality.
LikeLike
Swati
November 1, 2018
So one ignorant comment from you on this blog should destroy your entire life works?!?! It is like saying that. Have you ever read a single book or anything before bashing him up? I knew it. Your mind is made up before you let any thoughts from any direction come, shows the depth of bias and bigotry!
LikeLike
sanjana
November 1, 2018
Are you against brahmins or brahminism?
like
Are you against women or feminism?
LikeLike
TambiDude
November 1, 2018
Swati: Rajiv Malhotra has tweeted this:
“I challenge Irfan Habib, Romila Thapar, Wendy Doniger, Sheldon Pollock,
@Ram_Guha to have an open conversation on camera where we can share, agree, disagree freely.”
My experience tells that the only people who chicken out of any open debate are the ones who know their views can not stand scrutiny. Won’t this be a fantastic opportunity for Irfan and co to expose RM as a worthless hack.
BTW Audrey Truscheke also shits in her pants when it comes to debating with RM or Robert Spencer. She chickens out by claiming “they are not scholars”. She is so obsessed with parading her scholarly status that she reminds it daily in twitter “I am a scholar”. Let her try that against African Americans while writing about them in an offensive way.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anu Warrier
November 1, 2018
No, Swati. Not just that one comment, though that tickled my funny bone.When Rajiv is in a somewhat public position, and he’s so intent on making a point, then the onus is on him to make sure that the comment he tweets out is based on fact. If he is so ignorant that he doesn’t check his source, or if he’s so quick to skewer secularists over their imagined blunder – while making an even bigger one – that he doesn’t care about his source, then forgive me if I laugh at him.
Again – I have read him before. I find his perspective on many things ridiculous, and in some cases, downright dangerous. The pseudo-science he peddles to bolster his arguments is even worse.
I do have my biases – we all do. But I don’t dismiss someone without at least having made a push to see where they are coming from.
LikeLike
Swati
November 1, 2018
You have the egotistical, holier than thou, look-at-me, look-at-me, look-at-me-now and I will do anything so you pay attention to my two year old self or else I will throw tantrum so you pick me up, filled with maximum hatred and propped up with bunch of sycophant friends, the most vitriol filled language on this blog, that makes me feel so sorry and have compassion for you. Life must be very hard on ya. At least those journos who do what you do here, get money under the table…May you have more peace and less acid in life.
LikeLike
Srinivas R
November 1, 2018
“May you have more peace and less acid in life.” – after reading the words that preceded it, I am not sure who needs this more. Actually I am simply amazed at how much you have concluded about a person based on what? 5 comments you read? I am not here to fight Anu’s battle, but there is nothing like vitriol filled in her comments , as far as I see.
LikeLiked by 2 people
TambiDude
November 1, 2018
FWIW, I find Rajiv Malhotra’s attack on Christianity, Western Civilization, American society unacceptable, specially for a person who has been living in Princeton for nearly 50 years.
Why not leave USA and go back to India ?
That being said, I find his confidence admirable that he is willing to take “scholars” on camera. This shows he knows his stuff. It raises suspicion about the reason why these “scholars” studiously avoid debating with him, with number 1 suspicion being they fear they will be torn to pieces with their bogus scholarly work.
The American equivalent of RM is Robert Spencer, who has done MA in religious studies (so does that make him a scholar ?). He has steadfastly exposed leftish liberal view on jihad and islam and self proclaimed “scholars” avoid debating with him.
LikeLike
Rahul
November 1, 2018
“My experience tells that the only people who chicken out of any open debate are the ones who know their views can not stand scrutiny.”
Tambidiot , did you not chicken out of my questions on that other board?
LOL Swati, Did you know your idol Rajeev Malhotra is a plagiarizer too? Even Swarajya Mag acknowledged that.
LikeLike
Rajesh
November 1, 2018
mmm If you think The Hindu is virulently anti BJP even now in the last 3/4 years, then no wonder you question the likes of Wire, Print :).
Yes, please do stick to your esteemed oneindia and swarajya..:)
LikeLike
Kay
November 2, 2018
You have the egotistical, holier than thou, look-at-me, look-at-me, look-at-me-now and I will do anything so you pay attention to my two year old self or else I will throw tantrum so you pick me up, filled with maximum hatred and propped up with bunch of sycophant friends, the most vitriol filled language on this blog, that makes me feel so sorry and have compassion for you. Life must be very hard on ya.
Hats off, Swati! You have analysed yourself very well. Nobody else could have written about you better than that.
LikeLiked by 2 people
TambiDude
November 2, 2018
Dear Pappu: You were not debating with me. You were asking me to do your homework of comprehension skills , because of your low reading skills. In fact I should now say, low IQ since you don’t know what debate means.
LikeLike
TambiDude
November 2, 2018
Dear Rajesh: I think the mistake I made was to assume that you are an educated and informed person.
I could find these two in 2 min.
https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/time-modernity-and-the-bjp/article24534804.ece
https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/indias-shrinking-democratic-space/article24949467.ece
LikeLike
Rahul
November 2, 2018
LMAO Debating king Tambidiot used his whole experience to write this –
“My experience tells that the only people who chicken out of any open debate are the ones who know their views can not stand scrutiny.”
But seems to be chickening out again 😀
LikeLike
Swati
November 2, 2018
as expected, the minions have spoken 🙂
LikeLike
TambiDude
November 2, 2018
Swati: I think Rajiv Malhotra calls them as “sepoys”.
LikeLike
Srinivas R
November 2, 2018
@Swati – I will tell you my problem with your comments. The thread has had multiple debates, people have disagreed vehemently, but there hasn’t been any personal attack. It is possible that I missed some amount of personal attack in such a long thread, but the point is the arguments have been heated but within the boundaries of respect.
You chose to attack a commentor here simply because she criticized a public figure, that’s how it came across to me. I hope you do understand that commenting on a public figure is different from personal name calling. The change in tone of your comment from vehement disagreement to personal attack was shocking, IMO.
As far calling others minions, what can I say? It only holds a mirror to who you are
LikeLike
Anu Warrier
November 2, 2018
Srinivas, Kay, standing up for me may have laid you open to name-calling yourself, but it’s much appreciated. Thank you.
In any case, I now proclaim myself the Dark Queen of All Minions. I shall now only answer to ‘She who must be paid attention to.’ 🙂
LikeLiked by 2 people
Voldemort
November 2, 2018
A wise person once said “The quality of discussion is in proportion to the time it takes until someone is refered to as a “nazi” or “a-hole” or insert expletive of choice.”
In his book, Education for Life, J. Donald Walters defines maturity as ” the ability to relate to realities outside of one’s own. Walters points out that contractive attitudes are their own reward – it is painful when our awareness shrinks in ever-smaller circles.”
LikeLiked by 1 person
TambiDude
November 2, 2018
@srinivas: “I hope you do understand that commenting on a public figure is different from personal name calling. The change in tone of your comment from vehement disagreement to personal attack was shocking, IMO.”
Commenting on a belief system can not be personal name calling also. But the moment someone questions the inherent violence in Islam, he is a branded as a hate monger by
snow-white liberals. The same snow-white liberals keep quiet if Hinduism or Christianity (in USA) is attacked.
I am not siding with Swati here, but this self righteous vomiting session by liberals always gets my goat.
LikeLike
Srinivas R
November 2, 2018
@Tambi – are we discussing Islam here, are we talking about snow white liberals and their liberal guilt? where do you sense self righteous vomiting in my comments? if you wish to discuss about liberal guilt, islam, ISIS, whatever, be my guest, with due help from BR of course. But bringing this up completely out of context and forcibly thrusting this into this discussion, when I am addressing a specific name calling by Swati, makes me question your intention.
LikeLike
Rajesh
November 2, 2018
@Tdude
if those 2 articles made you consider The Hindu as a virulent anti BJP media, then what can I say; Forget serious journalistic criticism, you and those neutrals whom you represent (we are not BJP but we just support nation) and the Hindutva parties cant even bear The Hindu’s soft and ‘diplomatic’ criticism (S.Vishwanathan is a good eg) they have been practicing for the last 3/4 years. If you could find this in 2 min, then may be you could find out HOW MUCH The Hindu don’t bother to even mention about or how many questions they don’t ask at all? (which they used to before)
Why so many of their past article writers don’t have any space in that paper in the last 4 years?(while those are still writing) M.Parthasarathy articles were kind of frequent earlier. Now she appears once in a bluemoon
Please do not make this mistake anymore and waste your valuable time discussing with people who are not educated enough to appreciate oneindia/swarajya. Sorry
LikeLike
Madan
November 2, 2018
Hindu is avowedly left but, like Caravan, it is not pro Congress and the disagreements of its columnists with the BJP are ideological. Again, once in a while, Hindu does accommodate conservative voices. IIRC S Gurumurthy himself used to send in articles once in a while? Do you see Shashi Tharoor columns appearing on Swarajya? Or the aforementioned Shiv Vishwanathan? I would love to be wrong about this. But like National Review in US, Swarajya simply does not accommodate left wing voices and has not even the pretence of balance that a newspaper like Hindu has. And for the most part, our newspapers are balanced and nowhere yet as polarised as USA. TOI is the most widely read English daily in India and on its Sunday op ed spread you can find Aakar Patel and Swapan Dasgupta columns one above the other. And this has been the case for many years and not just since 2014. If the bhakts still feel left out, this should be called for the charade. A mukhota masking their true desire which is to monopolise media and shut the Left out of the discourse for good.
LikeLike
Rahul
November 2, 2018
Lets give our friend Tambi the benefit of doubt. Its easy to get confused when you spend your whole day typing away. Maybe he was arguing with liberals on some other tab and got triggered in this tab.
Tambi, even so if all pages on web look alike to you, normally you can tell web pages apart by the URL in the address bar. I know we may not be on the best of terms but I am willing to help you out on this. Cheers bro.
LikeLiked by 2 people
TambiDude
November 2, 2018
@rajesh: Let us not shift the goal post now that you have been called out. It all started by your gas that after ram rajya ended on 25May2014, media like Hindu has been forced to toe the line of the new govt and hence people like Siddharth V or Shekhar Gupta had to leave and start their own.
I am not surprised. Throwing away meaningless allegations like India is becoming Pakistan, super fast rising intolerance, are all the tactics used by liberals. Hopefully all of them should stand in unemployment line after 2019 elections.
LikeLike
Swati
November 2, 2018
The thing about my comment was—I did not name anyone!!!! Has anyone read short story “chor ki dhadhi mai tinka”. Hahahah.
LikeLike
Honest Raj
November 3, 2018
@Rahul: Or, he can try using different browsers?
LikeLike
Rajesh
November 3, 2018
Madan, Rahul 🙂
@Tdude . I have enough RSS friends, who pretend as neutrals, liberals and scholars, around me to argue about your kind of ‘points’. I dont want more such in an online space too. sorry friend
LikeLike
TambiDude
November 3, 2018
LikeLike
Swati
November 4, 2018
ArnabGoswami is soothing to millions of Nationalistic Indians (Highest TRP is proof) voicing the national mood & cause of “Heart Burn” for the Anti-Hindu Brigade.
On Cong winning 2019, please keep ₹1 ready as the bet amount & Paytm me after
LikeLike
Honest Raj
November 4, 2018
@ Isai: That sati being practised by a few families or it being a choice does not negate the fact that it’s a “religious custom”. Even if we argue that there’s no religious sanction for many age-old customs―sati, child marriage, et al―one cannot deny that these practices were dictated by the Hindu society. After all, Hinduism is “a way of life”. 🙂
Your analogy is not even remotely apt.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Honest Raj
November 4, 2018
BR: I’m just curious to know where exactly you draw the line when it comes to moderating out comments that involve name-calling. I understand that calling somebody as ‘Mustard in hot oil’ or comments like this (:D) may not constitute a personal attack but some comments, IMO, have clearly crossed the line.
All that said, I thoroughly enjoyed Rahul’s responses to Tambidude. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Srinivas R
November 4, 2018
https://scroll.in/article/900283/twist-in-sabarimala-tale-keralas-mala-araya-adivasi-tribe-claims-ownership-of-the-hill-shrine
LikeLike
Srinivas R
November 4, 2018
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/viral-image-police-action-sabarimala-isnt-real-its-photo-shoot-91060
Fake news being spread…
LikeLike
Srinivas R
November 4, 2018
A sample case study of fear mongering and building insecurity in the name of Hindus.
https://www.altnews.in/bjp-kerala-kapil-mishra-spreads-fake-news-about-a-sabarimala-devotee-dying-due-to-police-action/
LikeLike
Swati
November 4, 2018
When it comes to terrorists and secular criminals, the courts say bail is a right. When it come to Hindus, they start behaving like FCRA NGOs…
Shameless Indian media continues its conspiracy of silence as Kerala’s CPM Govt converts one of Hinduism’s holiest shrines Sabarimala into a police barrack ahead of its reopening tomorrow. Clear case of state trying to use its brute force to intimidate hapless devotees.
Tension builds in Kerala as 1000’s of cops deployed in & around Sabarimala which reopens tomorrow as Stalinist CPM Govt declares war on Hindu devotees. Section 144 imposed. Media reportedly barred beyond Nilakkal, about 20 kms from temple. But hey, there’s no emergency.
LikeLike
Rajesh
November 5, 2018
Srinivas –
Mala Arayans have the list of all the Araya priests who were in charge up until it was Brahminised. Even producing proof from Samuel Meteers 1962 book Life in Travancore. There is also proof of DB looking for appointing chief priests for the temple and prominent Tantri families of Kerala expressing their lack of interest owing to the tribal connection. That was when a progressive priest from Perumbavoor came forward 🙂
The kind of fake rumours that are spread locally is really terrible. But this murder accusation took it to another level, with even Janam tv alias RSS tv bla blaing about it. Luckily soon the truth came out and also the news that the late Mr. Sivadas had even filed a police complaint against some local Hindutva leaders. His family alleges a district level leader had even threatened Sivadas and family over the complaint.
Police is taking precaution now as they have realised that troubles will be created with the aim to make a martyr.
However, I disagree with the Govt decision to ban media. It was thanks to the media presence that even Keralites outside Pathanamthitta dist came to know about the truth behind ‘devotee’s . Without them it is going to be a case of the words against Police and RSS and we all now how good RSS is in spreading fake news.
LikeLike
sanjana
November 5, 2018
Did any woman of certain age enter Sabarimala today?
LikeLiked by 1 person
sanjana
November 5, 2018
Anyone thinking of writing a thriller as to how a 28 year old entered some temple like sabarimala(so as not to offend). A film will be quite interesting. Instead of India it could be some place in Japan or Thailand or south america to avoid further controversy.
LikeLike
Isai
November 5, 2018
@ Honest Raj: Custom is defined as a traditional and ‘widely accepted’ way of behaving or doing something that is specific to a particular society, place, or time. By no stretch of imagination can one say that Sati was a widely accepted way of behaving for widows. This is how Sati was different from say Child Marriage which was widely prevalent.
Considering that it was predominantly an aristocratic practice of royal families who had fought wars against people like ‘the peaceful ones’ (pls wiki history of Sati), I don’t understand how you consider it dictated by ‘Hindu Society’ (If at all, it was dictated by the barbaric behaviour of the invaders). If true, why was it only rarely seen and not ‘dictated’ by the Hindu society to the other widows?
Making snide remarks about Hinduism or unfairly clubbing Sati with Child Marriage only indicates the light weightedness of your argument.
LikeLike
Rocky
November 5, 2018
Why are women banned from Mount Athos?
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36378690
Women will not be granted a permit and must stay behind as their male friends board the ferry at one of the two closest ports.
Mount Athos has barred women for more than 1,000 years – they are not allowed within 500m of the coast.
This was the simplest way, he says, to ensure celibacy. The thing that makes Athos different from other monasteries, he says, is that the whole peninsula “is regarded as one huge monastery”.
But there is also another reason for banning women, connected with Orthodox tradition.
“One of the traditions is that the Virgin Mary was blown off course when she was trying to sail to Cyprus and landed on Mount Athos. And she liked it so much that she prayed to her son that she should be given it as her own and he agreed,” says Speake. “It’s still called ‘the garden of the mother of God’, dedicated to her glory, and she alone represents her sex on Mount Athos.”
This applies to both humans and domestic animals, except for cats.
LikeLike
Isai
November 5, 2018
@Srinivas: I can’t help but wonder about the authenticity/dubiousness of the scroll article that you had shared. The sub-heading of the article says ‘Chief Minister Pinarayi Vijayan has admitted that members of the tribe used to conduct the main ritual at Sabarimala decades ago.’ It is a bit like saying Advani admitted that ‘Indira Gandhi was also corrupt’. The ‘admission’ should come from someone in the opposite camp, not from your own.
Further, the article is entirely based on the comments/claims of this PK Sajeev who has no credentials in writing history and who just claims to head ONE of the many organisations for the Mala Arayas (http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/kerala/2018/oct/29/sabarimala-issue-mala-araya-tribe-a-divided-house-to-file-opposing-petitions-in-apex-court-1891319.html).
As the above link shows, the purpose of these organisations seems to be engage in rabble rousing and emotionally manipulating its caste members to create a vote bank and use it for acquiring power/wealth. But the scroll article portrays him as a genuine historian and does not even get his claims commented by anyone from the other side or even from neutral historians.
Now, Rajesh in this blog mentions that Samuel Mateer (btw he was a Christian Missionary; some people seem to conveniently exclude this piece of info) mentions in his book that 1) Mala Araya guy was a priest of Sabarimala temple in 1862..2) PK Sajeev claims that the Pandalam King drove out the Mala Arayas from Sabarimala in 1800s..3) The problem is the Pandalam Kingdom ended in 1820 when the kingdom got merged with Travancore and the administration of the Sabarimala temple went into the hands of the travancore kingdom. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandalam dynasty) Now with the kingdom ending in 1820 and Samuel Mateer seeing the Mala Arayas as priests in 1862, how could a Pandalam King have driven out them?
Asking such basic questions seems Inappropriate for the Scroll reporters (btw In this case, the ‘journalist’ is Mr. Ameerudeen).
Nowadays, if you want to oppose any Hindu practice/custom, say that brahmins only invented this practice or brahmins are currently behind this practice. This AUTOMATICALLY makes the practice bad (because hey brahmins are ‘evil people’ who sole purpose of existence was/is to spread evil in the society. So, if the practice was theirs, then you don’t have to waste time by discussing the merits/demerits of the practice by using ‘logical logic’. Instead you can use the above mentioned ’emotional logic’ and say ‘hence proved’. And unlike your math teachers, the masses will fall for it.
Now if this practice is totally aloof from the brahmins, say fire-walking, then you can tell the masses that ‘See the cunning brahmins don’t engage in such practices themselves and instead make only you suffer with these practices.’
If you are still unable to stop this practice, as a last resort you can adapt it. You can tell them that you can still take a chariot for procession in your streets. You just have to replace the Muruga idol with the Mary Matha idol.
These are the above 3 ways by which you can eradicate the evil practices of Hinduism.
LikeLike