2018 marks 25th anniversary of Ilaiyaraaja composing and recording a Symphony with Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, London. At that time he was the first Asian composer to do so. The Symphony was never released to the public and Ilaiyaraaja has largely remained silent about this work since then. This is a write up leading to celebrate Ilaiayaraaja’s achievement in composing a symphony and pondering if his path would have changed had he released the symphony.
Debut to Symphony (1976-1993):
It’s well known fact that Ilaiyaraaja made a spectacular debut in 1976 film Annakili. That marks the transition period not only in tamil film music, but overall filmmaking in tamil cinema. Tamil cinema which had origins from stage plays, was still dominated by theatrics in all aspects of cinema from dialogues, acting to even costumes. While yesteryear stalwarts like Shivaji, Jai Shankar were fading, Kamal Haasan was at the pinnacle of stardom and Rajinikanth had just made his debut a year earlier. At the same time emerged a new generation of directors like Barathi Raja (16 Vayadhinile 1977), Mahendran (MullumMalarum 1978), BaluMahendra (Tamil debut – AzhiyaadhaKolangal 1979), later joined by Mani Ratnam (PallaviAnuPallavi, 1983). These directors changed the course of tamil cinema by making films that were rooted on human emotions, instead of larger than life dramas which was the norm at that period. Invariably all of their films had scores by Ilaiyaraaja, which elevated their films to a different plane. But bear in mind that Ilaiayaraaja was scoring at a prolific speed (over 650 films between 1976-1993) and there were only a handful of directors giving some challenging work for Ilaiyaraaja. The era was dominated by sub par films, which are remembered today only by Ilaiyaraaja’s songs and background scores.
I personally, have always felt Ilaiyaraaja the genius composer who was singularly producing phenomenal work, as a victim of his generation. He not only gave excellent scores for hundreds of middling films for two decades, but he was also stuck with poor sound technology of that era. The recordings do no justification to the dense orchestral layers that Ilaiyaraaja adds to his songs and background scores. Even the vocals quality is so poor in some evergreen songs that we listen even today. I am yet to hear a decent audio quality of songs like Uravugalthodarkadhai or IlamaiEnnumPoongatru, which sound like the tape was dipped into water first and then used for recording.
As his musical prowess was hampered by the film industry, he briefly dabbled into producing independent instrumental albums (How to name it & Nothing but wind) which had shades of Indian and western classical music. Although these albums did not have the reach like his film songs, it must have given him some peace to compose music without restrictions. So in 1993 when Ilaiyaraaja was approached by a company to compose a symphony, he promptly lapped up the challenge. Reading this jubilant interview of Ilaiayaraaja (Link1) after recording the symphony, it does seem like he finally broke the chains that were holding him back and set out to conquer the West. There’s a childlike enthusiasm in his answers about the symphony he had just recorded.
So, did Ilaiyaraaja have bigger plans after releasing the symphony? It certainly seems possible, given that Ilaiyaraaja himself had stated in a later interview (early 2000s) that he wasted his career in tamil films (Interview in Kumudam – reference unavailable). But his course remained unchanged after the symphony. Why? Probably, because it was never released.
Ilaiyaraaja’s Symphony No. 1 was conducted by a famous English Composer John Scott. He speculates that Ilaiyaraaja was very hurt by the review of a music critic and decided not to release the symphony (Link 2,3). John Scott further lashes out at the critics and adds that, he and the musicians who recorded the symphony think the symphony should be released. For an artist whose mastery was curbed for nearly two decades not by his own limitations but by the circumstances he was caught in, it must have been agonizing to choose not to release his masterpiece.
There’s an ironic parallel between Ilaiyaraaja and Ludwig Van Beethoven, with regards to their magnum opus. Beethoven completed symphony 9 in 1824, the composition considered to be a towering achievement in western classical music. Beethoven had turned completely deaf by the time he finished composing this symphony, and when it was performed for the first time, Beethoven (who was conducting it off-note and had his back to the audience) could not hear the standing ovation by the audience and a musician had to turn him to face the audience and acknowledge the ovation. Till this date, his Symphony 9 stands as the most performed symphony, yet while the whole world could hear this symphony its composer could never hear it. Ironically in Ilaiyaraaja’s case, we have a symphony that the world awaits to hear which only the composer has heard so far. Let’s hope someday in our lifetime, Ilaiyaraaja will treat us to this Symphony.
Meanwhile, after the symphony experiment Ilaiyaraaja returned back home and continued his work in Tamil Cinema, which was not the same anymore. Remember this was in 1993, hardly a year after A.R.Rahman had made a sensational debut that changed Indian music industry forever. The pioneer directors of yesteryear were past their prime or retired and the ones who remained moved on to other composers. This meant,Ilaiyaraaja was not the most sought after composer by the spirited filmmakers of 1990s, with Kamal Haasan being the only exception. Ilaiyaraaja still went on to compose for another 350 plus films (more than life time work for most composers), occasionally giving soul stirring music, but bulk of his work in later days were not even noticed by large number of audience.
Now in 2018, we can only wonder when he hit the crossroads, what if Ilaiyaraaja had chosen the other way. Would he have quit film music and ventured into western classical/independent music? Or would he have scored in international films? Would he have got the international recognition he rightly deserves? These are some hard questions that we can never get an answer, but what we do know is within the realms of Tamil cinema what Ilaiyaraaja achieved will remain unparalleled. This quote from Beethoven’s eulogy fits perfectly for Ilaiyaraaja’s film career as well – “He who follows him cannot continue in his footsteps; He must begin anew, for his predecessor has finished his life’s work at the limits of art.”
(by Muthu, aka Heisenberg.)
brangan
October 14, 2018
Just one note about this: but he was also stuck with poor sound technology of that era.
This seems to have been a problem peculiar to the Tamil film industry, and not the ERA, per se. Listen to the RD Burman tracks of the 70s and 80s, and you find some wonderfully clear recording which reveals layers of clean sound.
It would be interesting to know why the tech-transfer did not come south. Did people not care? Was it too expensive? Was it not a top-of-the-mind priority?
PS: It’s also not ALL Raja albums that are hampered this. Some of the ECHO recordings are beautifully done.
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Madan
October 14, 2018
Wonderful, wonderful write up. Do note that when you say ‘only’ occasionally soul stirring music, you will trigger the Raja fanatics who will come out of the woodwork and assault this thread in a blog they profess not to care about. But this is a subject I have wondered about too like pretty much most Raja fans, as to what would the symphony be like and what did the critic say that upset Raja so much.
See, I know our celebs get upset with the media (I remember Sehwag lashing out at Indian media and even claiming foreign press is not so critical during the disastrous 11-12 tour to Aus and at the time I wearing my freelance (and unpaid) cricket writer hat had written an open letter to him! 😀 ). But our media is actually pretty deferential to celebs. We have a tendency to be afraid of authority and our media will rarely take on a famous and successful person. The West knows no such restraint and can be no holds barred (and also woefully off the mark) in their criticism. They don’t care; it’s free speech and it cuts both ways. I have even seen thinly veiled sexism in critique written back in the day before 90s PC-ism cleaned it up (yes, sometimes PC-ness IS desirable). I think Raja was therefore not used to the sheer vitriol that I am guessing was poured into that review and reacted badly to it. I agree with John Scott that he should not have taken the criticism to heart and instead released it. If nothing else, for the fans whom, he should have known, would have stood by him. It still isn’t too late. Please, if anybody from Raja’s team is reading this by any chance, make amends before it’s too late. You know what I mean. Please don’t punish us fans for what some critic out there said. We don’t care even if he said it’s a lift from this or that composition. We want to hear Raja’s own interpretation of the symphonic structure, that’s all.
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Madan
October 14, 2018
“Listen to the RD Burman tracks of the 70s and 80s, and you find some wonderfully clear recording which reveals layers of clean sound.” – I have discussed this question a lot with a friend of mine who is a rock musician (got his debut recording mixed and mastered in Sweden) and he says you cannot compare RDB recordings with Raja because the latter have more layers. So I am not sure tech by itself would have helped. Dhalapathi was recorded in Mumbai and it WAS better than typical Prasad Studios products but even that was an 8 track recording as per the sound engineer. As per my friend, in India, there is no serious understanding of the post production process of music. That is why Rahman had such a big advantage when he brought in his own studio and teamed up with Sridhar. But again, note that Rahman’s recordings are done mainly by way of combining different layers played on a synth which is easier than recording loads of actual instruments. Every instrument needs a mic (ok, except the strings) and some like drums need more than one mic. It’s why many independent recordings today use drum machine for the studio recording and the band plays drums live during performances…because it’s too costly to record.
Lastly, I also believe the Raja remasters are actually pretty good (MAHA acquired them and uploaded them on YT) but they have probably not been picked up by radio stations. And TV channels continue to play the original analog versions which badly need cleaning up and have very thin, grainy sound. With RD, the remasters have reached radio. I can tell because 92.7 plays THEM which sound much, much better than Akashvani which I presume still plays the old LPs.
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brangan
October 14, 2018
Madan: Am not comparing the depth or quality or other intangibles of the MUSIC. Only the quality of the SOUND. But we have talked about this earlier, so let’s agree to disagree 🙂
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Madan
October 14, 2018
Brangan: And I am not talking about the music either. I am just saying that it’s not an apple to apple comparison. It’s easier to make a clean recording with a small set of instruments with one note harmony on guitar than it is when you have three different layers playing at the same time and all have to be captured well. I heard complaints even from some avid musicophiles that NEPV’s sound is too dense. Now that album was recorded in Hungary and mastered in London (Abbey Road if I remember right!). So it can’t be only the sound quality. It is also that people want the same sparse uncluttered sound in Raja’s songs that they hear in other film music too. That’s not going to happen. That being said, by no means was Prasad Studios world class either but that goes without saying when they were just 8 track recordings. The Ghulam Ali-Asha Bhonsle duets album has very clean sound. I doubt any hi funda recording tech was used for it. It’s just easier when the instrumentation is so sparse.
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Babu
October 14, 2018
BR: Thank you very much for this wonderful article. There is something inexplicable about Raja’s music that makes it the epitome of Timelessness. I think, much after we are all gone, his music will continue to reach a wider gamut of people beyond all geographical boundaries. His prolific work will be explored, new meanings will be discovered and new interpretations will emerge. Regarding his symphony, yes, the ‘if only…’ speculations are endless. It’s sad to note that at a global level the recognition he has is nowhere near what it deserves. But let’s remember that the legends who are worshipped even today went unrecognised during their lifetime, centuries ago.
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Madan
October 14, 2018
This is the title track of Song for all Seasons, an album with very rich and multi layered orchestration (the bassist said there wasn’t standing room for some of the musicians in the recording room!), produced by David Hentschel who worked with Genesis, Elton John among others and recorded at Trident Studios, London, again a storied venue where many iconic songs happened, including Candle In The Wind. See how dense and thin the sound is. It is no doubt way better than Raja recordings (and Hentschel is not my favourite rock producer) but we’re talking about the cutting edge as far as British sound production of the time (late 70s) goes:
The previous Renaissance albums had a cleaner and more lush sound but probably Hentschel felt they lacked the punch to take them to a higher level of popularity. So he chose to amp up the rhythm at the cost of a thicker sound. This is probably the dilemma Raja also faced and with what tech he had, he would have been even more constrained.
The remedy is for the remastered versions (esp Agni Nathchatram remaster is awesome) to get more popular. Don’t know quite what that will take and I will say this – when it comes to helping the word about Raja’s music get out, his own team and cohorts are his biggest enemies. Sorry to say so.
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Arjun
October 14, 2018
I have another theory – it’s possible that most western critics who heard it found the symphony to be a mediocre piece of work and lacking in originality. One of Ilayaraja’s signatures is that he likes to jump between scales, between ideas, mixes up the instrumentation a lot etc.This is great for film songs that last 4-5mins and makes his interludes a rollercoaster ride of unexpected twists and turns. However the same approach may not work in symphonies where themes are developed and expanded at a leisurely pace. I’ve felt this in HTNI as well, which overall I still think is a brilliant album. For example the composition where he overlays Bach’s partita in E major with a carnatic violin playing charukesi is simply stunning for the first 5 mins or so, but then it is jarringly interrupted by IR’s humming. That simply didn’t work for me. I can imagine that such gimmicks in a symphony would annoy western critics.
Make no mistake Ilayaraja is an unparalleled songwriter. He is also a genius background score composer. This in itself is pretty multi-faceted. I can’t think of anyone else equally prolific in these two distinct musical forms. People like John Williams have not composed any noteworthy songs.
However perhaps he wasn’t/isn’t best suited for the longer more structured forms. I reckon that is where TMK’s criticism of his carnatic compositions comes from as well. This is not really a criticism, just an observation. Just like a genius short story writer may not make a great novelist or a film director like Francis Ford Coppola might not be the best person to direct the Sopranos etc….
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Madan
October 14, 2018
” it’s possible that most western critics who heard it found the symphony to be a mediocre piece of work and lacking in originality.” – Entirely possible. Raja’s brilliance lies in synthesising WCM (mainly Bach) and Carnatic, not necessarily in reinventing the wheel itself when it came to WCM. He is brilliant at writing chord progression but again chords by themselves cannot a great western classical composition. If anything, classical does not have room for some of the chordal unorthodoxy embraced by rock/blues, to say nothing of jazz. I think NBW fared better than HTNI in terms of having a coherent structure. But I still wouldn’t compare it to the great classical compositions. It’s a highly commendable (and original) stab at fusion at a time when nobody had thought a meeting of Indian and Western classical to this extent was possible. But if you take out the fusion, the pure western classical parts are alright and not amazing.
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Heisenberg
October 14, 2018
@BR – Thank you very much for posting this article. This is my first ever write up and it’s very encouraging to get a platform like this to generate a discussion.
As for the sound technology of that era, you’re right that this was not prevalent everywhere. Even in Ilaiyaraaja’s work – Priya (1978 – first time to use stereo technology) had a better sound quality compared to many of his later works.
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Heisenberg
October 14, 2018
@Madan, @Arjun – I think without listening to the symphony it’s unfair to assume it’s probably mediocre. As far I know at least John Scott and Paul Mauriat had high opinion on Ilaiyaraaja’s mastery over western classical music. When Ilaiyaraaja got an opportunity like this to break from his mundane, it could be anything but mediocre.
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Madan
October 14, 2018
@Heisenberg: Somebody mentioned in Naveen Mozart’s upload of the Sigappu Rojakkal BGM that the music was done on a shoestring budget. This may explain why some, in fact many, of his recordings from that period coming up to the early 80s were scratchy. They were also mono. Mono and scratchy together is a bad combo. By mid 80s he seemed to have cleaned up the problem. I wasn’t there, I cannot say if there were strings of low budget movies with Raja scores still coming out in 1986 with bad audio. But even moving off the iconic Mouna Ragam/Punnagai Mannan/Mella Thirandhadhu Kadhavu soundtracks, I don’t find anything particularly remiss about the recording of say an Azhagaga Sirithathu Andha Nilavu. And it doesn’t even say that this upload is off a remaster.
Or take Yen Uyirae Vaa. This is a remaster upload.
It’s not Rahman but I also don’t know that that is an appropriate standard to hold it up against. I realise I can’t stop people from doing so if they so wish.
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Subramaniam Alagiasingam
October 14, 2018
Good article Muthu
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Confused tambrahm
October 14, 2018
am here to refute a point where it says the post 1993 works were not listened to by his fans. Raja did super hits like kalapani, guru,nammaoora mandara hoove like wise many in malayalam, tamil, kannada and telugu.
How come we have left out his private albums of Ramana Maharishi, Thiruvasagam,swappnam,Amma pamalai comfortably?
The writer doesnt realise where raja himself has said he has used his symphony pieces in Neethane en ponvasantham – a record audio sales in the music industry in terms of cds and digital.
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Heisenberg
October 14, 2018
@confused tambrahm – Sorry I did not know he used his symphony pieces in NEPV.
I am not saying his post 1993 works were not listened by his fans, but the proportion that got attention is very low. For instance if I name Kida poosari magudi or Enga Amma Rani as Ilaiyaraaja’s recent works, people(like me) will only know these through wikipedia, not by their songs.
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Madan
October 14, 2018
“raja himself has said he has used his symphony pieces in Neethane en ponvasantham ” – That is not the same thing as listening to it in the context of the full symphony where it was originally used and you know it. So even if the writer didn’t realise it, it is immaterial. If it was just about symphonic passages, we have been hearing that since at least 1977 or so in his music so what’s new other than the BSO playing it with super duper recording tech.
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Tambi Dude
October 14, 2018
“The pioneer directors of yesteryear were past their prime or retired and the ones who remained moved on to other composers. ”
Chuckle. Takes me back to late 90s when TFM page was most sought after site for tamil film music lovers and we use to see posts like “Reasons for IR’s decline – things beyond his control”.
You can add one more reason. he rubbed many folks the wrong way who were just waiting for his decline. The Tamil edition of India Today was gloating after Gentleman and its music was a big hit in late summer of 1993 otherwise what was the context of mentioning end of IR era in the review of Gentleman.
Personally I moved on around 1989-90 itself. By then IR had nothing new to offer. Decline happens to the best of all composers and IR was no exception. He was surviving until 1992 because of TINA factor even though ARR was waiting to happen.
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Arjun
October 14, 2018
Not sure if my previous comment got through, so rewriting.
@Madan: Ironically I like HTNI better, but objectively speaking, I agree NBW was a more coherent work from a WCM perspective although it too drifts at times. By Thiruvasagam, I think he had really got the hang of the longer formats. It is really a very focussed, memorable work. Mozart’s early symphonies are not regarded too by critics. Beethoven’s first symphonic masterpiece was his 3rd symphony…the first 2 are not very popular and not even performed too frequently. Now given his genius, it is quite possible that had IR released a few more albums like HTNI or been commissioned to write more symphonies he too would have gotten better and better, but unfortunately that was not to be.
@heisenberg: “I think without listening to the symphony it’s unfair to assume it’s probably mediocre. As far I know at least John Scott and Paul Mauriat had high opinion on Ilaiyaraaja’s mastery over western classical music. When Ilaiyaraaja got an opportunity like this to break from his mundane, it could be anything but mediocre.”
Of course no question about IR’s WCM mastery, not just John Scott, even the conductor of Budapest Symphony orchestra Laszlo Kovacs regards IR very highly, but like I said above that doesn’t necessarily translate to a great symphony composer. John Williams also wrote a symphony number 1 that did not become very popular. But who knows… if only IR had been commissioned to work on more such projects….
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KV
October 14, 2018
When I think of Raaja and his life and times – it’s more often than not as a tragic figure,chained to (what seems in hindsight to be )a predetermined path in which his life would play out owing to the specific passage of years he came of age in his chosen line
Consider this : India was under Emergency rule when he debuted. The exuberance of Indian Independence and more recently the joy in the role India played in the formation of Bangladesh had long abated when he debuted.
Arts and artisans were most likely not at the fore front of public thought then. And it was not as if there was an organic or inorganic vacuum (as it would come to play out less than 15 years later in Tamil Film Music when Rahman came on the scene due to misunderstandings between successful long time collaborators).
Cinema,at the best of times for the majority,is an escape from their daily grind. More so in times of a national country wide unrest.
In such circumstances of fate – the very fact that He debuted at all is a stroke of fortune (for Him no doubt) for us as fans.
And then even as Time moved on – stuck with paltry budgets , an apathetic technology shunning environment,helped not an iota by the governments of the day – it’s indeed a miracle that He could forge a path all by virtue of his own inherent talents (expressed by being prolific , being multi faceted in both scoring for songs and BGM , and not the least being capable enough to be skilled to be accepted as multi lingual) , something that is still today unnavigable by the many talented musicians that have followed.
In the 80s, arguably at the peak of His powers , scoring film music for 5 songs and BGM far more in numbers than there are weeks in a year , holding sway musically over a vast populace, the man still finds time to drop two non filmy albums.
And in the interim, He still found time to learn Indian classical music from Balamurali Krishna.
Seriously , time management and the accompanying discipline to achieve that by Raaja in the 80s would be a Motivational post for the ages by itself.
While it’s true that it’s a loss to us fans that the symphony hasn’t yet been released – I tend to give him the benefit of doubt so to say.
Maybe he thinks of it like this –
Film scoring is like feeding and dressing up the child of another.
Those are important to a growing child ,no doubt ,but the child is not of my womb. I am just the one who played a part in nurturing it.
The kid is not my Son.
But this symphony is a conception of my womb and my womb only. And for all the perceived flaws it may have,as long as I still hear that song – my life is well spent.
The kid is my Son.
And I have had the privilege of having birthed him and also the dilemma of How to Name Him even if some critics proclaimed that he’s Nothing but Wind.
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Tambi Dude
October 14, 2018
“as it would come to play out less than 15 years later in Tamil Film Music when Rahman came on the scene due to misunderstandings between successful long time collaborators).”
Misunderstanding !!!! Why can’t we (IR fans) simply accept the fact that it is possible that MR saw that IR is creatively done and it was time to move on.
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Madan
October 15, 2018
@Tambi Dude:Given that IR’s last album with Mani, Dhalapathi, was a blockbuster, he would have to have been a heck of a clairvoyant to know that IR was done, especially when IR had a good run in 92-93 too. But what is possible IMO is Mani simply wanted to be able to give more inputs in the music direction which was never going to happen with IR who saw it as strictly his domain. SaNa was saying in that video about BGM that he does a click track on the computer and OKs it with the director before actually giving it to the orchestra to record. For IR there was no question of him OK-ing individual portions of a BGM with the director. There must have been other pain points but Mani was basically exhausted with IR’s speed is my theory.
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Tambi Dude
October 15, 2018
You are assuming that MR just considers IR’s movies with him alone. If MR was as serious a follower of IR career as others, he would have seen that his best was way past over in 1992. Unless you believe that decline happens overnight.
ps: Not much impressed with the music of both Anjali and Dalapathy.
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therag
October 15, 2018
For a thread about Ilaiyaraja, this space is pretty sparse but I guess with MeToo and all, the commenters are a little busy..
I dunno why MR went with ARR but I think I know why MR stayed with ARR. ARR is a much better fit for MR’s films. I mean, they’ve been together for 25 years and that is a long time to be holding a grudge. Mani regularly changes up his cinematographers (Santosh Sivan, Rajeev Menon), why did he never go back to Ilaiyaraja? Because he genuinely thinks ARR is a much better fit for his films, and he is right. It doesn’t matter if IR was more innovative or talented, he operated in a niche that no longer overlapped with Mani’s.
IR ruled TFM for a decade and a half quite comfortably (the timeline varies depending on who you ask) and ended up scoring for all kinds of films. Which is why you read that several films would have sunk without IR’s music in it, that IR also produced a lot of stinkers, and had a very average strike rate. Starting from the 90s, not everyone went to IR, only the people whose films could benefit from IR’s expertise. He still got to do films like Guru, Sethu etc. He might have lost some films to the newer crop but he still ruled,and arguably still rules his corner of the kingdom. Maybe he was locked out of the bigger stars, and the big commercial films, but why does that bother you if musical innovation is what you care about. Some poster above said IR still did 350 films after 1993, so don’t tell me he had no chance to unleash his genius or whatever.
More important than musical innovation is whether the composer is a good fit for the film. NEPV might have had a more innovative soundtrack than VTV, but I thought the music didn’t fit the film very well, the way VTV’s music did. This may not be Raja’s fault entirely, VTV being an intense romance and all while NEPV was a lighter romance but IR was brought in to score just as a gimmick. Truth be told, the film could have been scored by quite a few other composers.
Now take a film like Thaarai Thappattai. No one in their right mind is going to approach a Deva or Santhosh Narayanan when you have a Raja, not to mention Bala’s relationship with him. Thaarai Thappattai was a perfect fit for Raja because he owns both rural/folk and carnatic/classical. He probably bullied a few filmmakers to ensure that Thaarai Thappattai would be his 1000th film.
Now, not all filmmakers care about the music in their films and they might as well have gone with IR. But the standout filmmakers from that time (like MR or Shankar) did care. And the ones that didn’t care, like K.S Ravikumar, just went with the market #1.
It doesn’t matter that Ennio Morricone is no longer a force in film music. Even if he was, a David Fincher is not going to use him. But a Quentin Tarantino will still seek him out.
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Tambi Dude
October 15, 2018
Madan: When it comes to detecting someone on decline, there is a difference in discovering IR (which is your case since you were too young during his era – I am assuming you are mid 1980s born) and following his career as it happened. I followed IR from 1976 onwards until I lost interest in early 90s. We can tell when his songs no longer appealed as much as it use to – aka terminal decline. Just few days back a friend of mine was telling the same about recent work of ARR. That is why I have this theory that MR also realized that he is done, something which was clear later on as IR struggled to come up with anything remotely close to his peak.
This hold true for cricket also. We can talk and talk when Viv Richards started declining as opposed to just watching him in youtube.
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Tambi Dude
October 15, 2018
@therag: “why did he never go back to Ilaiyaraja? Because he genuinely thinks ARR is a much better fit for his films, and he is right”
Or IR genuinely pissed him off. Why are we dignifying their split by calling it “misunderstanding” unless someone knows real reason as to why they split.
With the reputation of Raja as a difficult person to work with, I can understand why MR never went back. Keep in mind, Vairamuthu never worked with IR after their split and so do KB.
Also I heard that Rajni wanted IR to compose for Padyapa, but IR refused because he did not want others to start thinking that Rajni helped him resurrect his sinking career (I think that was in 1998).
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Madan
October 15, 2018
therag: Great comment. Morricone did a wonderful score for Wolf well past his peak phase. But yeah the films themselves move in a different direction and the older composer’s music doesn’t work so well for those films. Something on this lines has happened with Raja too. Even if Kathir had at all used Raja for Kadhal Desam, I can’t see how it would fit. In fact, Raja is believed to have told GVM to work with Harris Jeyaraj at the outset so he is aware of this. Bala’s films on the other hand suit Raja or rather the other way round.
Tambidude: I was and wasn’t too young for peak IR. That is, I do remember hearing Idhayathai Thirudade onwards soundtracks as they came out and Rakamma made a big impression on me. It didn’t for you and that’s fine but at least four songs from Thalapathi are still concert staples for IR/performed regularly in singing contests etc. Nobody would deny the evergreen popularity of Rakamma. I really dislike Kanne Kalaimaane and Chingari Koi but these songs happen to be amongst the most popular of the respective composers.
1994 was the year I remember IR starting to lose assignments to others in a big way and where his soundtracks didn’t fare well head to head with say those of Rahman. Veera vs Duet for eg. I wouldn’t necessarily rate Duet better and Veera was a great soundtrack (again Madathile,Malaikoil Vaasalil have aged really well) so it was more that Duet was fresh and by a relatively new composer which people were more interested in listening to.
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Tambi Dude
October 15, 2018
Madan: Idhayathai Thirudade is 1989 and was just the start of over-the-hill period. I didn’t like the songs as much as I liked Agni Nakshatram. If I remember his 1989-92 period I don’t recollect many memorable songs. Some big Kamal movies like Vetri Vizha/Induran Chandran/Apoorva Sahodargal were all ordinary. However AS had fabulous BGM. Then there were more Kamal movies (I remember two with Bhanupriya) which were all quite bad. If we move to Rajni, Manan and many other movies in that time frame had generic songs, none of which lasted in my memory for long at that time, let alone now. When I say “I”, I am also talking about the circle I was moving around. We all felt his songs are no longer the same.
I did not like Thevar Magan songs too. I did not like Anjali Songs either. The trend was clear. he was past the creative phase and was just dishing out generic stuff.
So what if they were hit. MSV’s songs of 1970s were hit too , though no match to his earlier works. Laxmi Pyare were hugely successful in 1980s though the quality was abysmal.
You are right to some extent about Veera vs Duet. I love Madathile (terribly vulgar lyrics) and I also like Konji Kojni. But Duet at that time was phenomenal and still some of its songs have aged well. My fav is Naan Paadum Sandham. SPB’s virtuosity was abundantly in display there.
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Madan
October 15, 2018
OK if you felt Aboorva Sagotharargal was ordinary then our views are totally different. That way I have heard some Raja fans mark the point of decline as 1984. So we all mark it at different stages with a group that insists he hasn’t declined at all.
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Heisenberg
October 15, 2018
Wow I had not found this video before writing this. Ilayaiyaraaja speaks about his experience of listening his symphony for the first time.
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Tambi Dude
October 15, 2018
Madan: To understand the difference, go back to what I mentioned as growing up listening vs discovering it later. Between the two groups, there will be a clear dichotomy in their perception of when peak ended.
I once mentioned here that in my view SDB’s career can be grouped into two phases. Pre and Post Guide (1965). By the time I was into film music in 1971, SDB was in his last stage. I heard an uncle telling that he considers post Guide work as distinctly inferior. I thought he had gone senile. Years later as I understood SDB’s work in somewhat chronological order I could understand where my uncle came from. Personally I like lot of his post Guide work also.
For all his brilliance IR was not consistently brilliant. The IR of 1980-82 was superb. Comparatively 1983/84 was less brilliant. he bounced back in late 1985-1986 with a change in his sound.
If I have to point his last great movie, probably it was Agninakshatram.
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Tambi Dude
October 15, 2018
Heisenberg: Wow. Where did you get that from. Many thanks.
I love the starting music in that video. It is from Lavani song of Hey Ram. Straight out of John Williams type.
I heard IR and SPB had a vaa-daa po-daa relationship. We can see that in the video.
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Madan
October 15, 2018
Tambi Dude: I get that but the 1984 crowd I mentioned also said they grew up listening to the music. Sometimes when an artist’s new work doesn’t appeal to our tastes, we attribute it to decline. Which may or may not be the case and it’s pretty subjective.
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Madan
October 15, 2018
” The IR of 1980-82 was superb. Comparatively 1983/84 was less brilliant. he bounced back in late 1985-1986 with a change in his sound.” – OK so this is more a problem brought on by IR’s own impossible standards. 1983-84 had Thanga Magan, Saagara Sangamam, Thoongathey Thambi Thoongathey, Naan Paadum Paadal, Pudhumai Penn, Vaidehi Kaarthurinthal. I have left out relatively ‘less’ but still good/great albums like Vellai Roja, Vaazhkai, Ilamai Kalangal, Nallavanukku Nallavan, Naan Mahaan Alla. All these films have evergreen hits of his which continue to be played to this day.
You seem to think of 83-84 as a valley/trough compared to the peak of 82/85. I think rather they were peaks that scaled somewhat lower heights. Any other music director would kill to produce that kind of output in a slump. I mean SS and VK are two of his bonafide masterpieces right there.
“If I have to point his last great movie, probably it was Agninakshatram.” – Keladi Kanmani, Puthu Puthu Arthangal, Kizhakku Vaasal, Chinna Thambi, Marupadiyum all came after Agni. Oh, and also Idhayathai Thirudhadhe. MAYBE an argument could be made none of them were as great as Agni but they were all great albums. Maybe these films just didn’t give him the kind of unbeatable canvas Agni did. It had style, rebellion, intense romance, everything. I think MMKR is a fabulous album even though it lacks that kind of range. The lack of range is not Raja’s fault; he cannot invent an intense Udhaya Geetham like sad solo in a comedy film.
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Tambi Dude
October 15, 2018
Of course everything about music is subjective. But still personal opinion has some value, in the sense that when the people around you also feel the same, then it is not that much an individual opinion. Take ARR. I think he is clearly on a terminal decline and post Delhi-6/Rockstar his work is rank mediocre. We are talking about last 6 yrs at least. Guess what, almost all of my friends feel the same.
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therag
October 15, 2018
@Tambi Dude : I haven’t read/watched anything that suggested that MR was pissed with IR. Granted I was born after 1993. From what I see MR had a very professional relationship with IR. KB might have been pissed with IR and demanded that MR try and get someone else.
Now it is possible that Vairamuthu was the problem. MR may have been willing to go back but IR demanded that he ditch V. MR probably decided that ARR+V >>> IR + Someotherlyricist. So IR just fell on the wrong side of the calculation. Like I said, 25 years is a long time to be holding a grudge.
Also, while ARR’s debut may have been a side effect of industry politics, it is unfair to attribute his rise to industry tiffs. He brought something new to the table, and just in time for Mani’s rise to the national stage.
With respect to ARR’s terminal decline, I think he still produces one good album every year. His musical innovation might have plateaued but I think he knows he can’t produce 4 great albums a year anymore. ARR is smarter than IR in that he is more judicious in picking films, and he looks for musical fit. So he will go all in for a Tamasha/I and give a lukewarm effort for the likes of Vijay. Chekka Chivantha Vaanam is also a very good example of the fit-innovation dilemma. The soundtrack was not musically innovative, but it fit the film really well IMHO.
Looking at the kind of films ARR is scoring, and his constant touring, he is trying to consolidate his position as much as possible, and maybe get some new audience in the process. He is prioritizing his business over everything else which,understandably, irks the musical audience. I, for one, am interested in where ARR will go next. Maybe he’ll become a record producer like Dr.Dre. He is already going in that direction by producing his own films, having his students compose for film etc. I think he wants to dissociate from film where he is just another cog in the machine. The OP suggests that even IR wanted this but could not succeed, but ARR may succeed where IR failed. Or not.
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Tambi Dude
October 15, 2018
@therag: “Also, while ARR’s debut may have been a side effect of industry politics, it is unfair to attribute his rise to industry tiffs. He brought something new to the table, and just in time for Mani’s rise to the national stage.”
Not me. In fact I already mentioned ARR was waiting to happen.
TFM from 1990-92 was getting into the same rut as what it was in early 70s when a declining MSV and a terribly nasal TMS were still crooning for aging Shivaji and MGR. LOL.
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Arjun
October 15, 2018
” If I remember his 1989-92 period I don’t recollect many memorable songs.”
Come on, you may not have liked them, but objectively speaking 89-92 had plenty of memorable songs that are his concert staples and fan favorites across generations.
To me his decline began around 93-94. I too wonder if the demoralizing symphony experience had anything to do with it. His music became distinctly less contrapuntal after this period. The bass guitar also began to recede and he seemed to retreat into a shell of sorts. 93-95 still had some good work like Sathi leelavathy and Mogamul. I think most objective music connoisseurs will agree that between 96-2004 ARR was certainly the more innovative creative composer, although there were occasional brilliant flourishes from IR too like Hey Ram. It is another matter that I don’t like much of ARR post 2004…
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Madan
October 16, 2018
IR and ARR both wanted to decouple from the vagaries of film music but IR chose a more ambitious and fraught route. Instead of a symphony he could have written an album of English songs produced abroad with top singers and musicians of UK/US. He sort of did that with the Love and Love only song. Missed a trick or two there.
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Heisenberg
October 16, 2018
@therag – A little trivia on what led to IR breakup with KB, eventually that led to with Mani too. Ilaiyaraaja had split with vairamuthu already after punnagai mannan, but still worked with KB till pudhu pudhu arthangal. During that film, KB wanted bgm for a scene and IR had been busy in recording session in mumbai. KB was in a hurry to finish it asap and he called up ilaiyaraja saying, its just one scene so he would do with some small composer but still will give credit as Ilaiyaraaja. Ilaiyaraaja replied that so you only want my name for the film but not my music. This led to their split and in 1992 KB produced 3 movies and all 3 had new music directors. Among them was Roja which also served as comeback for vairamuthu. MR may not hold a grudge, but Ilaiyaraaja sure saw it as plotting his downfall with the people he had split with.
Ilaiyaraaja and KB finally spoke only after Ilaiyaraaja won national award for pazhasi raja.
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pirhaksar
October 16, 2018
@therag..absolutely second your thoughts on ARR and his recent work. I thoroughly enjoyed Tamasha and Ranjhanaa but a lot of folks don’t even know these songs! Similarly loved Kaatru, AYM and also CCV was not bad at all. With the right director and movie, I think he can still produce great work imho. I am eagerly waiting for the Rajeev Menon film, hopefully he can deliver! As I keep harping on to other Rahmaniacs, off late not too happy with the businessman he has more or less become which explain the commercial choices and the lackluster scores for the same. In the meantime, pedestrian stuff like Sarkar is lighting up its target audience, the youtube hits and views etc which tells me he is doing exactly what he needs to do to stay commercially relevant. Speaking for myself, I’d much rather he does one great album per year.
Coming back to IR, I am a mid 80s guy and happened to catch the late 80s version of IR, would’nt call myself a big fan of some of the albums quoted here in this thread by others – although each of them has a gem or two that I love. IRs work is so prolific that there will invariably be a masterpiece in every album in the 80s. Not a big fan of his 90s work, but there too I have some gems in my playlist even today. All that said, my favorite IR album remains Thalapathy, will take it over anything listed on this thread by others – the opening set up of Rakkamma alone is something else.
Incidentally, was not aware of the politics around IR regarding his relationships with the bigwigs in the industry in the early 90s, makes sense now why MR went to ARR just after the stupendous Thalapathy. Interesting to read about these things.
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therag
October 16, 2018
@Heisenberg, If IR worked up a fury over something so inane… LOL. I watched a Bosskey interview with K.S.Ravikumar where Ravikumar explained the famous Oonjal scene in Padayappa. They were working on the score with a very tight deadline. Most of the score was done but the Oonjal scene was not finished. ARR took a break while Harris Jeyaraj and KSR stayed in the studio. They used some existing tracks and did a “patch” job which ARR okayed immediately. The way KSR recounted the incident, I was left feeling that ARR would have been fine if Beethoven’s ninth symphony was used in that scene.
Shows you the importance of prioritisation. Why work up the anger over the BGM in one scene made by a filmmaker who has been/is vehicle to a lot of great compositions? Not to mention the filmmaker whose Sindhubhairavi earned you a National Award. I’m sure ARR was not very happy with the way CCV turned out, but he realises the value of the relationship and it worked out for him in the end.
@pirhaksar, yeah his recent work is given the short shrift for some reason.
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Madan
October 16, 2018
therag: I would not consider that trivial at all. Of course as you suggested and as most of us Indians would do, I would eat humble pie and choose my battles. But IR is not wrong in wanting to protect the integrity of his work. It’s just that integrity is an alien concept to our film world. That incident shows the gap in professionalism between IR and typical film industry people. Nazar kinda hinted at it when he described IR’s work on Avatharam and concluded by saluting him as a thorough professional. IR is basically like Ambi, lol.
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therag
October 16, 2018
@Madan, that level of butthurt would be considered unusual in any part of the world. It is a wonder that IR ruled TFM for so long because the people who are not so talented are trying to bring down the talented all the time.
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Madan
October 16, 2018
@therag: Well in the US certainly proper acknowledgment of work done and not misusing one’s name is considered important. Of course there are a different set of issues for music directors and they are nowhere near as powerful as IR once was. So yes it’s a miracle that IR stayed at the top for as long as he did. And that is how I would like to think of it. I don’t think about what could have been if he had been more business savvy like Rahman. He would very likely have also not been as spontaneous and uninhibited with his music in that case. Why does it take Rahman so long to compose the music? Because he is letting people who don’t necessarily understand much about music have a lot of say in the process. IR stayed true to his original creative impulses which is the truest approach to songwriting. But it’s also very difficult to enjoy sustained commercial success with that approach so it’s indeed a miracle that he dominated film music for so long being as crazy as he was.
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therag
October 17, 2018
Not all composers conjure up tunes spontaneously in half a day. Different composers have different processes and ARR’s process is pretty standard in the music world. I don’t think ARR takes more time because others want to chime in and influence the process. His bottom-up style of composing takes a while and that allows others to get their thoughts in maybe?
The top composers in the West like Hans Zimmer work like ARR (let your students provide input and do much of the sound production work) or I should say ARR got the idea from the likes of Zimmer. I’ve also noticed that Zimmer works with collaborators more often than not nowadays (Blade Runner 2049, BvS). And Zimmer is not exactly the superstar composer that ARR is in India.
Staying true to your creative impulses might be the truest and best approach to songwriting but I think it is a sub-optimal approach for film composing. No point in delivering a masterpiece for Sarkar is there? Maybe IR can afford to do that with his prolificacy but poor boi ARR cannot.
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Madan
October 17, 2018
@therag: Actually many of the yesteryear composers like MSV and RDB used to work fast too if not quite as fast as Raja. I am sure Raja based his style of working on watching them. Across the Atlantic, the brilliant score for Lawrence of Arabia was also done in short time. I think with the advent of computers it’s become much cheaper for composers to show samples to the filmmaker; hence they do so and which is bound to slow down the process.
As for ‘wasting your best on turds’, well, if you’ve committed your services to someone, you owe them your best. Raja was not going to discriminate that way and prejudge a film. For those who are not intrepid enough to check out the music of mokka films, their loss, not Raja’s. He has earned name and fame beyond his wildest dreams. He may have lost out in the fame competition to Rahman, but that’s OK. The songs will be cherished by those who have heard them, irrespective of whether they came in a MR film or a Ramaraj starter.
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pirhaksar
October 17, 2018
I don’t think this not giving your best for insignificant or massy films was a thing with the 90s ARR, recall his brilliant stuff for so many mediocre films back in the day. Likewise, most of IR’s 90s stuff in big massy Rajni or KH films were mediocre by his brilliant standards at-least imho, I know the IR fans may say otherwise especially given his prolific output. I think it is safe to say IR of the 80s and ARR of the 90s are just completely in a league of their own and set the standards so high that they themselves fell short of their former self a decade later. Of course they could still conjure up the magic when needed not on a consistent basis.
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Madan
October 17, 2018
pirhaksar: I was just going to say that too. Rahman gave amazing soundtracks to many mediocre films in the 90s. Only post Slumdog has he become super selective. What did Minsara Kanavu or Kadhal Desam do to deserve the soundtracks they got? Likewise yeah IR-Rajni did slump in the 90s. Dhalapathi was Mani but Siva before that was the start of the downward trend. Dharmadurai and Mannan were OK dokie, Uzhaipaali was seriously middling. Made a comeback with Ejamaan (ironically previously rejected tracks) and Veera was great but sadly the last. Kalaignan was again a kinda disappointing soundtrack for Kamal. Yeah the films got massy and Raja’s music got louder to keep up with them. I don’t blame him for that but it wasn’t what Raja fans would have liked to hear more of. Ironically Kalaignan was right after Singaravelan which was a surprisingly good soundtrack, bit underrated these days though I dislike the loud and clichéd Pottu Vaitha Kadhal Thittam.
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Madan
October 17, 2018
NP Pazhamudhir Cholai. Reminds me of another top album of 1990, Varusham 16. Superb album, rural and rustic but with dashes of Carnatic.
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moonraker
October 18, 2018
Sometimes I feel IR should not have worked in so many films – a monopoly or semi-monopoly is usually not good, because it leads to complacency and/or reluctance to adapt to new trends/changes. This makes the inevitable fall harder. But I do agree with the original post that even in his heydays, he was hampered by the technology around him.
As for ARR, I think what some people say about his recent work not being as good his past work is what people say for every successful musician/filmmaker/artist who is around for 25+ years. Had he been in the business for 5 years, people would have been raving about scores like Tamasha/KV/AYM more than they do now. But your history becomes heavier the more successful you are. The same applies to IR too actually, when they say he is no longer what he was in the 80s. What people (the ones who grew up in the 90s mainly) don’t probably realize is that more than ARR’s music, it’s they themselves who have changed. If Roja released in 2018, they would say it doesn’t sound like his work of the 90s 🙂 That generation is now too preoccupied with work and other responsibilities not present in their childhood to sit through a score patiently and give it multiple listens. But I myself can enjoy his recent work, and frequently listen to them.
Another point I feel is filmmakers focus more on urban audiences these days by making shorter films and refuse to give importance to music, hence placing them in the background/using them partially/not using them at all. In a country like ours, where ‘commercial’ music is really film-driven, that kills the songs’ recall value to the public. Even Mani Ratnam, who has so many memorable picturisations of songs in his movies, did that in CCV. And looking at the kind of music the biggest hit films have these days (BB/Dangal to name a few) – one does have to admit that maybe music is just not as important in films as it once was. True-blue musicals like Rockstar/Sankarabharanam are so rare, which is probably why ARR is producing musicals.
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Ravi K
October 18, 2018
In the Hindi film industry it was pretty common practice for a music director’s assistants to compose background scores and even preludes and interludes in the songs themselves (in addition to other arranging duties, depending on the composers and projects). They may have gotten credited in the film’s credits as assistants, though not specifically for background or prelude/interlude work. Some composers came up with the basic melodies but did not know musical notation and relied heavily on arrangers for orchestrations, harmonies, etc. I wonder if this is the kind of work IR did as an assistant for GK Venkatesh.
I’d bet the situation was similar down south. IR is notoriously knowledgeable about music and does not seem to have relied on assistants or arrangers, though I believe Karthik Raja has done some programming for IR from the 90s onwards.
I highly recommend “Behind the Curtain” by Gregory Booth, which is a great book on how Hindi film music was produced. I wish there was such a book for the South Indian composers, but alas most of the ones from the golden era are gone. I’m sure the singers that are still around have a lot of knowledge of the processes.
https://global.oup.com/academic/product/behind-the-curtain-9780195327649?cc=ca&lang=en&
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pirhaksar
October 18, 2018
@moonrakrer…well said, I concur on the history and how people may have changed in their preference over time. Again not trying to justify some clearly sub par music from these geniuses, but I clearly see examples of people who outgrew their old tastes, have sampled global music, listen to different genres etc. and now are much more open to the different – be it sound, style, voice or what have you. Music tastes have evolved to such a great extent that I have seen people rave about some songs (especially SaNa), I try to give it a listen but sometimes cannot even get through a single listen. I concluded I have not evolved as much to appreciate
this trend. Similarly I have no idea why the masses like something…an atrocious song (to my ears atleast) like Simtangaran gets better reviews than any CCV song.
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Madan
October 18, 2018
@pirhaksar: I actually think it works the other way round. People expect something from the older composers that is like their vintage works and yet not too evocative of it. For example, are Puddikala Mamu or Pengal Yendral really that bad compared to say the songs of Katthi? But the typical IR fan already doesn’t like that kind of music and those who do aren’t really interested in Raja’s stab at contemporary stuff. In this way, once people’s tastes change, the older guys lose control of the market.
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Tambi Dude
October 18, 2018
@ravik:” In the Hindi film industry it was pretty common practice for a music director’s assistants to compose background scores and even preludes and interludes in the songs themselves (in addition to other arranging duties, depending on the composers and projects). They may have gotten credited in the film’s credits as assistants, though not specifically for background or prelude/interlude work. Some composers came up with the basic melodies but did not know musical notation and relied heavily on arrangers for orchestrations, harmonies, etc. I wonder if this is the kind of work IR did as an assistant for GK Venkatesh.”
MD’s of HFM were notorious for what you have written above until RDB. He was the first composer to do most of the things himself.
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Madan
October 18, 2018
@Tambi Dude: Did RD write the notations himself either? Don’t remember reading that but could be. Salilda for sure could write the music himself. This may also explain why he too had such a mastery over arrangements. If not quite Raja-esque (nobody is that), still he was different from his contemporaries in that sense, going from the rustic Suhana Safar of Madhumati to the quirky Guzar Jaaye Din and the Beatles-like Na Jaane Kyon.
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Tambi Dude
October 18, 2018
@madan: May be not. But RDB was the first composer who would actively take part in conducting the orchestra (not only in the interludes of the song, but also the BGM of the movie), talk to musicians on how to be more effective, these kind of thing. MDs before that were notorious for just outsourcing that work to others. That’s how LP, Kalyanji-Anandji got on the job training working.
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Tambi Dude
October 18, 2018
“Guzar Jaaye Din ”
Aha that song which Kishore Kumar took 17 times (or was it 18) to get it right finally. Even Mohd Ghazni could have done it better 🙂
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Tambi Dude
October 18, 2018
Salil C background music was just fantastic. I remember a movie in early 90s called Kamala something, which was actually a collection of 3 short stories. His BGM was very good.
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Madan
October 18, 2018
” But RDB was the first composer who would actively take part in conducting the orchestra (not only in the interludes of the song, but also the BGM of the movie), talk to musicians on how to be more effective, these kind of thing.” – Yeah, that I completely agree. As IR would do later (and he was probably influenced by RD in that aspect), RD took a lot of interest in how the arrangements were going to shape up. Unlike IR, he was supposed to be fairly democratic and collaborative; groomed musicians like Bhupinder and Louis Banks.
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Jayram
October 19, 2018
https://scroll.in/magazine/876648/louiz-banks-the-jazz-veteran-on-his-musical-journey-rd-burman-and-playing-with-dizzy-gillespie
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Madan
October 19, 2018
Thanks, yeah, great article, have read that one. That Shashi Kapoor film he mentioned has one of Mukesh’s last great solos – Suhani Chandni Raatein. It has nice two handed piano which used to be a rarity in Hindi film music. Of course Raja generally wrote two handed parts with distinct chords for the bass clef rather than simply playing the same thing an octave below and above.
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Tambi Dude
October 19, 2018
From the link provided by Jayram (great link BTW, loved it, specially the jazz part)
“Then there was RD Burman.
He was so innovative, even when he copied, he made it his own. ”
LOL. This is called perfuming the pig. RDB shamelessly copied many songs. Songs like Panna Kee Tamana hai kee was note to note copy in mukhda.
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Madan
October 19, 2018
Tambi Dude: I can kind of see his point as I would not call say Chura Liya a bad copy of If It’s Tuesday in the way that Bin Tere Sanam is a bad copy of Child In Time or Deewangee of Primal Fear. That said, I haven’t been able to listen to Tum Ho Mere Dil Ki Dhadkan after I learnt it’s a copy of Whiter Shade of Pale (which I love too). It’s a ‘good’ copy but I still feel cheated, lol.
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Tambi Dude
October 19, 2018
For me nothing was more heart breaking than Aaya Hoon Meh Tujho le jaaonga (from Manoranjan). After that I started calling him choRDBurman or Mahachor (which incidentally was a 1977 Rajesh Khanna movie with music by RDB, bad music though).
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Jayram
October 19, 2018
I have guilty feelings when I listen to copied RDB/Kishore songs like Jahan Teri Yeh Nazar Hai and Tera Mujhse Hai Pehle Ka Naata Koi even though I like them a lot. I remember reading an interview with RDB where he said he had to copy because the producers forced him to do so. But I’m aware of the fact that he himself liked the original songs so much that he copied them in his soundtracks.
I recall another brilliant piano intro and solo for Jeevan Ke Din Chhote Sahi. Do we know if Louis Banks was the pianist for the song?
Speaking of piano: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNUy2a2IXUs
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Tambi Dude
October 19, 2018
“I remember reading an interview with RDB where he said he had to copy because the producers forced him to do so.”
So why when Bappi Lahiri, Anu Malik , Nadeem Sharavan, Anand Millind (all of them with horrible record as xerox users) claim the same, no one is willing to give them a slack.
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Madan
October 19, 2018
Yeah, the producer excuse doesn’t wash at all. He just appropriated whatever he liked. And in doing so, sometimes forgot to change them enough from the source that they wouldn’t come across as blatant copies. He even ‘adapted’ La Vie En Rose into Abhi Na Jaa. Another beautiful song, but appropriating such an immortal Edith Piaf number is just too blatant.
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Madan
October 19, 2018
“nothing was more heart breaking than Aaya Hoon Meh Tujho le jaaonga (from Manoranjan” – Which song was that copied from?
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Tambi Dude
October 19, 2018
Madan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-4WAh9Kjk0
One of the shameless copy every in bollywood.
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Jayram
October 19, 2018
http://www.itwofs.com/hindi-rdb.html— number 33
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Madan
October 19, 2018
When somebody has 40 plus entries in the ITWOFS list, that says it all.
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Tambi Dude
October 19, 2018
Aha, Karthik Srinivasan’s old blog itwofs. I told Karthik for some of the songs listed under RDB’s chori list. This was around 2000 something.
These days he has a good blog http://milliblog.com/. I also think he lurks here and may be comments occasionally. In twitter he seems to be liberal type (aka Raam Rajya ended on 25-May-2014 type).
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Jayram
October 20, 2018
Getting back to Louis Banks, I enjoyed the article a lot and was fascinated by his stories, especially the jazz parts. This makes me intrigued for his next film score, Praana which I hear contains a jazzy piece that will serve as the theme song.
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vijay
November 6, 2018
I do not think release of symphony would have changed anything much for IR.His Thiruvasagam had a grand release and some buzz. Did it change anything afterwards?
And I feel IR was close to top form in the early 90s and quite prolific as well. It is a testimony to Rahman’s freshness that he still took it away. It is not like as if IR was fading away and was waiting to be put to rest. Hardly the case. 1991-1992 had Gopuravaasalile, nadodi thendral, dalapathi,Idhayam and many other stellar soundtracks. I believe post-1994/95 is when I started seeing a noticeable dip. Especially if you look at his filmography in 1996, there is a sharp dip in number of films worked, but that did not translate automatically into better work since he had more time or whatever to score each soundtrack. It was one disappointing soundtrack after another, especially in Tamil. It is like after the symphony euphoria he could not bring himself to score for the mundane films that came his way. And that is understandable after you have done 600 or 700 soundtracks. An since he did not find any commercial sponsors for private albums as well, that area did not take off either until thiruvasagam in 2005. I still remember Kamal talking during TIS release function in 2005, that this should have and could have easily been done 10-15 years back. And after 2005, Kamal himself stopped working with IR.(he also talked about insultingly low offers for Mumbai express’s music in one of the interviews)
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Madan
November 6, 2018
@vijay: I agree that the release of the symphony wouldn’t have changed much for IR as far as film music goes. But it COULD have opened up vistas for him as an international composer. Notwithstanding critics griping, it could have acquainted filmmakers abroad with his capabilities. That way, I have read he was offered the chance to score a film in America in the 80s which he turned down. Wonder why.
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Madan
November 6, 2018
“” But RDB was the first composer who would actively take part in conducting the orchestra (not only in the interludes of the song, but also the BGM of the movie), talk to musicians on how to be more effective, these kind of thing” – Hmmm, since back when I agreed with this comment, I happened to read Raju Bharatan’s book about Naushad (titled Naushadnama) which contradicts the above. Naushad apparently was already writing notations for the musicians from the late 40s. Kersi Lord himself is quoted as saying that while other composers left things to the arrangers after a point, Naushad gave very precise instructions about what he wanted. He referred to his approach as scientific and that, far from being traditionalist or outdated, Naushad was the most up to date and modern in terms of his understanding of music. This is, if I may, reflected in Naushad’s arrangements for Saathi which Kersi worked on, especially the title track (but Husn e Jaana is also very interesting).
From reading the book, I got the impression that Raja combined the knowledge, control and attention to detail of Naushad with the speed and flexibility of CR. And also had more of these qualities than both composers but that’s kinda like how Fed can play better than Laver or Rosewall because he can lean on whatever tennis has learnt since then.
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Madan
February 3, 2021
In this interview L Subramaniam asks Ilayaraja why he never composed more such symphonies.
Ilayaraja responds that he thought people would be lining up to sign him up the way filmmakers lined up to work with him. And when that never happened, he got disheartened.
It was an ‘interesting’ response. Because in the first place the market for new classical music is not that huge. So his expectation was not grounded in reality.
Secondly, he never released the album after that harsh review so how would the word spread about him anyway. I am sure he knows that is the real reason but would rather not discuss it. Clearly some wounds will never heal.
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Madan
May 9, 2021
Learnt today that Pyarelal Sharma of Laxmikant-Pyarelal has in fact composed a symphony (rather two) called Om Shivam 1 & 2. Here is a performance of it in Leipzig from 2016:
1) I don’t understand how this has hardly been noticed since this is the only recorded performance of a symphony written by an Indian composer available for the public to hear/see. Which brings me to..
2) Raja, now please get over whatever that reviewer said and release the symphony. Otherwise, let the record show that your industry senior beat you to the punch. Can’t both claim you composed a symphony and also not release it to the public.
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Heisenberg
May 10, 2021
This is really new info and like you said don’t understand why its not even there in his wiki page.
As for ilaiyaraaja’s symphony, it feels like he has really buried that chapter in his life and moved on. I doubt if he wud ever consent to release it.
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anonymousviolin20
May 10, 2021
@Madan:
I don’t even need the recording. At this rate, I’d be content with him just releasing the sheet music of his symphony.
Also thanks for sharing the Pyarelal tidbit. Was this symphony composed prior to Raja’s own?
Side note:
I actually really want him to release the sheet music of his various film compositions someday as well.
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Madan
May 10, 2021
anonymousviolin:
” Was this symphony composed prior to Raja’s own?” – No, Raja composed his back in 93/95. Pyarelal composed this in 2010:
http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/london-reams/575166/0
Apparently, he studied music with Zubin Mehta in Bombay back in the day. He mentions here that he wished to go abroad with Mehta – whom he considers a friend – and work in Western music but Laxmikant persuaded him to stay back and work in Bollywood.
https://www.bollywoodhungama.com/news/features/pyarelal-the-legend-grows/
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Madan
May 10, 2021
“I actually really want him to release the sheet music of his various film compositions someday as well.” – Yes, and I am given to understand that he has lost the sheet music of some of his works, including Nothing But Wind. So when Prabhakar helped organize a performance of it, he had to rewrite notes by ear and Raja was saying the divisions are different from how he composed it (yeah, well, you lost the record!). He should have kept them preserved and, as you say, released them for them to be studied by musicians. He complains about music not being taken seriously in India but he abets this attitude himself, sorry to say.
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smitha
May 11, 2021
The problem with IR is he thinks what he composes is only music & dismisses the work of other MDs as just noise. This shows his inflated ego. As for the non-release of his 1993 symphony, IR has only himself to blame. Any artiste must be mature enough to accept criticism. IR must realise that the music is greater than the musician. Unfortunately, he has not & he will not.
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Madan
May 11, 2021
smitha: You can gauge his attitude from what he said about it to L Subramaniam. That he accepted to be swamped with offers after the symphony the way directors lined up to work with him in film music but he never got that. Now how he did not understand that he was now working in a more competitive market and on their terms (he was now trying to do pure Western rather than fusion) and so would have to work harder for acceptance, I don’t know.
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Madan
May 11, 2021
*expected. Not accepted
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Anand Raghavan
May 12, 2021
Curious to know, how easy or difficult is it for trained and expert Western classical musician to re-wrote the sheet music after listening to it thoroughly.
Also is there software technology available that re-engineers sound to sheet music?
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anonymousviolin20
May 13, 2021
@Anand Raghavan:
There was a choral piece that was closely guarded for centuries and not published for performance outside the Church. Mozart pretty much took one listen and when he got back home, he wrote down the music almost perfectly (that too as a 14 year old) .
A but of a poor paraphrase, but do check out this link
https://www.classicfm.com/composers/mozart/guides/mozart-allegri-miserere/
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