Spoilers ahead…
Like the prelude to an orchestral score, the opening stretch of Aditya Dhar’s Uri: The Surgical Strike, lays out a leitmotif. It’s 2015. Soldiers of the Indian Army are travelling in a bus in the Northeast, when they hear an explosion. It appears to be a tyre, but it’s an ambush. Bullets and bombs erupt out of nowhere. The sound designer (Bishwadeep Chatterjee), editor (Shivkumar V Panicker) and cinematographer (Mitesh Mirchandani) turn this shootout into an action symphony. Their work is even better when, a few days later, Major Vihaan Singh Shergill (Vicky Kaushal) and his cohorts ambush a militant hideout, in retaliation (or revenge). Close combat has rarely produced an image as searing as the one where the silhouettes of Vihaan and an opponent are framed against bright-orange flames in the distance. It’s visceral. It’s war porn.
It’s how the rest of the film unfolds: another attack (one year later, at Uri), followed by another instance of retaliation/revenge by Vihaan and his cohorts. The difference is that everything is amped up to Wagnerian proportions, including the humanising of the key players (in the Northeast, it was just a couple of minutes inside the bus, and now, it takes up the entire first half). We meet Vihaan’s sister, brother-in-law (who’s an army man as well), their adorable little daughter, and most importantly, his Alzheimer’s-afflicted mother (Swaroop Sampat). Early on, when Vihaan announces he’s planning to retire, to care for his mother, he’s told, “Achche bete ho jo maa ka khayal rakhte ho. Par desh bhi to maa hai.” (The country is your mother, too. You need to take care of her, too.) Like Simmba, Uri says that the more personal it is, the greater the likelihood of people being stirred into action. If Simmba is content to let things lie until his ‘sister’ is raped, Vihaan is content to stay away from the army till his brother-in-law, Karan (Mohit Raina), is killed. The bloodlust comes from the proximity of the blood being spilt.
In other words, like Simmba, Uri is an update of an old formula. After the Uri attack, a snaky Paresh Rawal, who plays an Ajit Doval-like security adviser, recalls how Mossad hunted down the Palestinian terrorists who murdered Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics in 1972. Steven Spielberg’s Munich brought this bloody slice of history to life — but Uri is far simpler, far more direct in its appeal to our heart and that primal part of the body that’s roused during gladiatorial spectacles. It’s more along the lines of Hukumat, the Anil Sharma blockbuster where the Dharmendra character waged war against a terrorist who killed at will (the victims included members of his family). That’s not a diss. It is what it is. Ghazi was a purer “war movie,” in the sense that the interpersonal dynamics hinged on what was happening in that submarine. Despite its wartime trappings, Uri is more of a comforting “revenge movie”, the cinematic equivalent of an India-Pakistan cricket match.
The “let’s get the bastards” sensibility runs through the chapter titles (“Bleed India with a Thousand Cuts”) and the other characters, too, like the use-any-means interrogator played by Yami Gautam, and the army pilot played by Kirti Kulhari. (It’s personal for her because she lost her husband.) As for the people under Vihaan, they aren’t fleshed out with minor, easily-remembered traits like the characters in a JP Dutta movie, traits that will help us remember them when they die. There’s no need, I guess, because they aren’t individuals but a collective, the battering ram that is the new India, whose youth power is singled out in the super-clever youngster who develops a drone that looks like a bird. And what does a similarly aged Pakistani youngster do when he stumbles on the bird-drone after it crash-lands outside his home? He thinks it’s a toy. He isn’t as super-clever. The rah-rah-ness runs across generations.
Aditya Dhar is a far better filmmaker than Anil Sharma, and there’s something dignified about the emotional portions of Uri. He pulls off a Gulzarian bit when Karan’s wife, after his death, tells Vihaan she can’t bring herself to launder his shirt or donate them. She wants to hang on to the smell of him. At the funeral, Vihaan weeps and so do we. Vicky Kaushal, shedding a tear through gritted teeth and military reserve, is very effective – it’s a powerfully melodramatic stretch. As a counter, there’s a muscular topicality that bolsters the proceedings like a steel spine. The Paresh Rawal character remarks, “Yeh naya Hindustan hai. Yeh Hindustan ghar mein ghusega. Aur maarega bhi.” (This is a new India. It won’t hesitate to kill.) He uses the word “sahansheelta” (tolerance) to describe the earlier India, and I was surprised at how namby-pamby the word sounds today, in a country that has moved on from Gavaskar’s gentlemanliness to Kohli’s aggression. It’s a new India, all right.
Copyright ©2019 Baradwaj Rangan. This article may not be reproduced in its entirety without permission. A link to this URL, instead, would be appreciated.
vinjk
January 17, 2019
was already getting tired of the hollywood movies in this genre. here we are just getting started…expect more such chest-thumping, patriotic movies in future.
it seems biopics is the new game in town.
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brangan
January 17, 2019
vinjk: But when done well, few genres are such an exciting theatre watch. I loved Hacksaw Ridge.
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Vinamra
January 17, 2019
Will it be fair to draw parallels between this and Lakshya? The resemblances between the two films begin once Roshan undergoes an emotional transformation. When the love of his life walks out of his life for his neglectful decision, something triggers him to turn into a hero. His return to the Indian Army is less for the nation and more for him; the pain is palpable and real! In both the films, when the protagonists have won the war, their victory belongs as much to themselves as the country. One has successfully avenged the death of a loved one, the other has proven to his love he isn’t an aimless oaf anymore.
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Adarsh Kandy
January 17, 2019
I don’t know why many reviewers found this movie to be Propaganda.Am i missing something? is it the timing of the release or is it because it credits the modi government for the success of the mission. Don’t get me wrong, i dislike Modi but credit should be given where it is due right? Yes, anti war sentiments should be promoted, by when soldiers get killed in our own country, India cannot exactly stay quiet right!! Also In a war movie of-course the soldiers are gonna show ” chest thumping” patriotism. If they don’t feel that towards their country why would they risk they’re lives on the border.
p.s
” … country that has moved on from Gavaskar’s gentlemanliness to Kohli’s aggression. It’s a new India, all right ” LOVED that line baddy!
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vinjk
January 17, 2019
that is true, brangan, if we are looking at it as an entertainment. I do enjoy movies in this genre. But off-late I find it difficult to get past the politics of it. These movies in Hollywood come across as “Look at us smart American fooling and toying with everyone else”
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Rocky
January 18, 2019
Hukumat was entirely fictional whereas Uri is based on true events. It is necessary to have some drama or back story to make it engaging to the audience. Gavaskar once wanted to walkout protesting against a bad umpiring decision , and I think Chetan Chauhan ( or may be Anshuman Gaikwad) had refused to walk out with him.
OT- I am so glad that Uri is doing so well. The so called liberals of Bollywood are a bit confused about Uri, their hearts want to criticize the movie, but the mind says -our friend Vicki Kaushal is in the movie , and the baap of all of them Khapshap has also endorsed the movie, how to against that.
P.S.- They will have the EXACT same problem with Nawazuddin starrer Thackrey on the 25th of this month, they will however have a field day with Manikarnika.
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hari
January 18, 2019
Uri is a fantastic movie. It moves you, it pumps you up, it makes you feel for the soldiers, it achieves what it sets out to do. The scene were the girl child gives the war cry brought tears in to almost all the people sitting next to me including me in the theater. Having a nephew in Army, graduated from NDA, camping in the border, this movie made me feel more proud of him. Propaganda/no-propaganda this is a must watch film. Very rarely you see such good Indian war movies, and there are very many stories about in that area which can be made to good movies with the current production values that we posses. As a side note we in Tamizh films are still dwelling with dialogues like “oru tamizhanukku enga ponalum unnum oru tamizhan udavi seyvaan”, sigh.
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Arjun
January 19, 2019
The reason some of us feel this movie is vulgar propaganda is because there are actors portraying an incumbent PM and an incumbent NSA. I can’t recall any other war movie in any language that glorified sitting PMs or presidents. Considering that this follows close in the heels of “Accidental prime minister” and a biopic on Modi is coming up soon, there is a clear pattern. Now all of Modi’s meetings and selfies with Bollytards starts to make sense.
It’s also been only 2 years since the Uri attack and it is in extremely poor taste to use the imagery of the little girl mourning her father for this piece of propaganda. Also note that this is an election year and the PM is currently feeling the heat over charges of corruption in the Rafale deal. So a movie on the alleged surgical strikes (which probably never took place, or in any event, which achieved little tactically or strategically) is a clever PR stunt.
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vijay
January 19, 2019
Arjun, I agree. Timing of the movie makes it suspect
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MANK
January 19, 2019
I felt the film was technically competent though lacking in dramatic force . It’s the patriotic feel that keeps the film going forward most of the times. But the battle scenes more than compensate for it. Looking at what they have achieved with limited resources, it’s extrodinary and also looks very authentic, may the most authentic close combat scenes seen in our Films.
This film should not be mixed up with the likes of accidental prime minister or modi biopic.
Propaganda or not, Films that pay tribute the valor and sacrifice of our soldiers should be made. They deserve it for what they do . As It’s said, our national flag flutters not from the wind, but from the dying breath of every soldier who gave his life for our country
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Ramen
January 20, 2019
I wonder why desis are so apologetic about a mere war movie. Hollywood churns them out every week (and the same desis watch them gleefully).
And the guy who mentioned Rafale deal, that itself is a propaganda in itself. Prince Gandhi has tried hard but it has failed to stick (You will find many point to point counters if you google with an unbiased mind). If he had any real proof, rest assured, he would have moved to the court and brought down the govt by now. He is just being the empty vessel that he always was.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
January 20, 2019
BR : So glad to find out this movie works. As vinjk was saying, not sure why this was dismissed as a propaganda piece.
in the matter of Gavaskar’s gentlemanliness I disagree vehemently. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The li’l man had a man sized chip on his shoulder which stoked his hunger for runs and with him it was no quarter asked no quarter given. Maybe G.R.Vishwanath would have been apt in this context.
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Josh
January 21, 2019
[quote]and the baap of all of them Khapshap has also endorsed the movie, how to against that.[/quote]
Bang on! ROFL! It’s ironic that the so-called liberals are scared of disagreeing with the self-proclaimed champion of free speech, Anurag Kashyap.
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ravenus1
January 21, 2019
This movie is no more government propaganda than Black Hawk Down was. It’s just a tightly scripted and well-made fun military action movie. The PM character as played by Rajit Kapur may have been made up to look like NM, but unlike that real-life draamebaaz he behaves in such a restrained and soft-spoken manner he reminded me more of former PM IK Gujral.
About the only Indian film that seriously explores the soldier’s psyche and his place in society is actor-director Nana Patekar’s 1991 film Prahaar (even if it eschews the military backdrop in the second half).
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Anu Warrier
January 23, 2019
ravenus: I don’t think there has been a single military action movie made by Hollywood that eulogised a sitting President or talked about current military action.
Uri, especially given the timing of its release (as that of The Accidental Prime Minister) does smack of government propaganda, given that this is election year. Also, given the circumstances of how the news of the alleged ‘surgical strike’ was ‘leaked’ – my husband comes from a military family – uncles and cousins have served, are serving. My cousin is serving as well. There have been such strikes before; but the military keeps mum about it. For obvious reasons. To have a strike and go about chest thumping about it is highly suspicious from several army people’s point of view. These sort of sorties are conducted very discreetly.
Films that pay tribute the valor and sacrifice of our soldiers should be made. They deserve it for what they do .
I disagree. I’m very proud of our army like any patriotic Indian. But I’m also aware of the high cost they pay – in health, especially mental health; in remuneration – the rank and file are not very well-off. And if they die in service, after the lip service and one medal, their families are left to rot in poverty. I’ve heard the bitterness in my husband’s cousin’s voice as he recounts how they are just disposable collateral.
What our soldiers (army/air force/navy/BSF, etc.) need is not a film depicting their valour so people munching popcorn can feel might patriotic; what they need is a living wage, respect while they are still alive, and a salary and pension they can live on without having to beg. Films like Uri are fine as films. But they only pay lip service to the cause.
I did read somewhere that the makers of Uri donated a large sum to the Army fund for widows and/or families of fallen soldiers. That’s a plus.
For me, even today, Haqeeqat will remain the lodestar in war films made in India. It showed our soldiers’ bravery – it had its share of:
Raah kurbaniyon ki na veeran ho
Tum sajaate hi rehna naye kaafile
Fateh ka jashn is jashn ke baad hai
Zindagi maut se mil rahi hai gale
Baandh lo apne sar se kafan saathiyon
Ab tumhare hawaale watan saathiyon
Never fails to move me. But it also showed us the futlity of war, and the toll it takes on the soldiers we are quick to praise but fail to support.
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Arjun
January 23, 2019
To those that bring up Hollywood movies, yes those are also for propaganda. The most vulgar of them all is the hurt locker. Imagine.. the US invades and destroys a sovereign country on a fake pretext, killing up to a million in the process and triggering utter chaos in the region And then they go on and make a movie…not about the untold suffering of the Iraqi people, but about how the experience of invading and killing people on foreign soil traumatized their soldiers. Well, we shouldn’t be surprised after all, Madaleine Albright, the liberal democrat icon and regular contributor to the likes of NYT and WaPo said on air that the death of 400,000 Iraqi children caused by US sanctions was worth the price. Anyway, sorry for the tangent.
This has been the standard Hollywood template starting from Apocalypse now to Deer hunter to the hurt locker (although I’ll admit I liked the first two movies for their craft). And then there are the WW2 movies before them, which are all laughable anglo-american propaganda, exaggerating the roles of the “allies”, including most recently, playing up peripheral battles like Dunkirk, and underplaying or even entirely erasing the decisive contribution of the Soviets and the mind-boggling scale of their losses (up to 30 million dead). There was some talk about this BTL even on the Guardian.
Anyway, back to the point, I don’t have issues with an “Uri” being made, even if it is based on a possibly fictitious “surgical strike” that achieved virtually nothing, just like the useless Tomahawk cruise missiles that Trump launched at Syria last year. The timing in an election year and subtly promoting the incumbent PM and NSA is the issue. Btw, the special forces team, portrayed with the maroon berets that allegedly carried out the SS is the Para SF, sort of equivalent of the US army green berets. I was hoping the review would mention this.
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brangan
January 23, 2019
Anu Warrier: What our soldiers (army/air force/navy/BSF, etc.) need is not a film depicting their valour so people munching popcorn can feel might patriotic;
Allow me to extend your logic…
What our women need is not a rah-rah Jyotika film depicting their steeliness so people munching popcorn can feel might good about empowerment;
What the oppressed classes need is not a star-studded Pa Ranjith film depicting their rise against oppression so people munching popcorn can feel might feel good about equal rights;
These are not “realistic” movies. They are fictions woven around reality. So too, Uri.
This is the risk when you make a mainstream movie (as opposed to Nihalani’s Vijeta, say, though that too was a coming-of -age story). The mainstream movie, by definition, is a “popcorn-munching exercise”, and serious issues do run the risk of being simplified and trivialised, especially if it’s a big budget movie.
For me, this is the crux of URI:
What does the film set out to do? It sets out to recreate the Uri attacks and aftermath.
Does it do it well? Pretty much so. The action sequences are exciting. The drama is reasonably involving.
That forms the basis for the evaluation.
Arjun: IMO, propaganda is different from having a point of view.
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Tambi Dude
January 23, 2019
“I don’t think there has been a single military action movie made by Hollywood that by Hollywood that eulogised a sitting President or talked about current military action.”
Zero Dark Dirty was made and released during Obama’s tenure. Worse, the makers were given access to information about the raid by the white house.
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Anu Warrier
January 23, 2019
BR, sure – I have nothing against well-made action/war/whatever films. I liked Border – which wasn’t even that great a film, come to think of it, but the feeling I remember is my little son being so emotionally caught up in their tale that he was sobbing by the time the film ended.
And heck, I have nothing against ‘Uri’ – the film. I like VIcky Kaushal, and I tend to like most movies that touch me emotionally, so I’m sure I’ll allow myself to be manipulated by the little girl’s scene at the funeral of her father.
What I was responding to was the general feeling about its timing, and the ‘based on true events’ tag which is suspect. And the timing, which is also suspicious – our PM is the master of spin, and so some fine spinning is being done, I think. (JMO.)
I also agree with you about women empowerment not needing a Jothika or her ilk to depict their steeliness. (Grin.) My response was to MANK’s comment that the army somehow ‘deserves’ such chest-thumping excercises. No, it doesn’t. 🙂
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brangan
January 23, 2019
Also wanted to add this:
“Gandhi” is a white-washed portrait of the Mahatma. But it is very affecting. “Gandhi My Father” is a truer portrait of a flawed man (as opposed to the saint we got in “Gandhi”).
Similarly, tomorrow, someone may give us a warts-and-all war (or post-war) movie, like “Three Kings” or “The Best Years of our Lives” .
Depending on our taste, political conditioning etc., some of us will gravitate towards “Gandhi” Or we may find it “propaganda” and prefer the more realistic “Gandhi My Father.”
But each film is coming from a very different space, and both are “valid.” Is my contention.
And yes, the timing of the film is suspect. But small films like this one take a long time to gestate, finance, find a distributors and a release date — so I’d rather not come down too hard on this one. (In the sense that I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt.)
We are in patriotic (anti-Pak) times. Look at how “Raazi” burst out. NO ONE expected it to do over Rs. 100 crore, even given Alia Bhatt’s popularity. But there it is. And I think films follow a trend. If Pak-bashing films become hits, more of them are commissioned and some of them ARE going to land up in an election year.
Unless, of course, a tough reporter breaks the story of how the PMO financed Uri. Then we will be having a very different conversation 😀
But sure, as a commenter, I see where you and Arjun are coming from.
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Arjun
January 23, 2019
“in health, especially mental health; in remuneration – the rank and file are not very well-off. And if they die in service, after the lip service and one medal, their families are left to rot in poverty. I’ve heard the bitterness in my husband’s cousin’s voice as he recounts how they are just disposable collateral.”
Not to mention, being used as chaprasis by the uffsar class. Yes the ordinary jawan is just cannon fodder… Descending from the British Indian army that fired on their own countrymen in Jallianwallah Bagh, and fought Bose’s INA, the Indian army is quite used to killing their own people, be it in Kashmir or the northeast or ethnic Tamils in SriLanka. The only meaningful achievement of the Indian army after independence is the 1971. Before that they were of course very efficient mercenaries for the British in the world wars and in the subjugation of China during the opium war.
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Tambi Dude
January 23, 2019
The mental health issue is faced by every army, including US army. My previous project was about MH issues faced by US Vets and how difficult they find to cope up with it. There is some sort of unwritten rule in US media to not talk incessantly about issues faced by vets to integrate back in civil society, otherwise the scale of the problem will be visible to all. Suicide rate, anti social attitudes are all very high among them. I think killing in such large numbers can affect anyone.
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Anu Warrier
January 23, 2019
Arjun – so true. And yet, I will not blame the rank and file of our soldiers – they are really in the boat of ‘Theirs but to do and die.’ Which is also why I have a sneaking sympathy for the sensitivity about criticism against our soldiers. But I still cannot wrap my head around, ‘Oh, you criticise our army’s actions, you’re a traitor. Go to Pakistan!’
With the deepest respect for the soldiers who lay their lives on the line every single day, I still don’t think any institution should be above criticism.
Dude – so true.
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Rocky
January 23, 2019
Khapshayp tweeted that he in general is against war films.
The irony is that most of his movies are based on wars between two factions, or are full of raw violence – GOW, Gulal, Raman Raghav.
P.S.- how are Udta Punjab and Mukkabaz NOT propaganda films if TAPM is a propaganda film.
TAPM is based on a book by a reputed journalist, showing MMS in a very positive light. I have read the book but have not seen the movie yet.
PS-2- Modi’s speech at the Film Museum and the love he got from the mainstream Bollywood is not sitting well with certain section of Bollywood. LOL
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Honest Raj
January 24, 2019
“Khapshayp tweeted that he in general is against war films.
The irony is that most of his movies are based on wars between two factions, or are full of raw violence – GOW, Gulal, Raman Raghav.”
Umm, they need not be mutually exclusive!
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Isai
January 24, 2019
@Those who feel Uri is a propaganda movie:
The movie Kaala illogically links ‘Land Grabbing in the name of poverty alleviation/Slum clearance’ (which is a world wide problem) with Ramayana, which is a story about a man living in exile who sets out to rescue his kidnapped wife (no land problems at all).
It does this by using terms (Dandakaranya Nagar etc.), Images (Villain having a ‘white’ marble statue of Rama, who is clearly described and known as being dark complexioned), actors (one looking like Hanuman), scenes (Ganesha statue being destroyed) and dialogues (the ramayana storytelling during climax).Then it again links this back to the BJP by having the villain look like Modi, referencing swach bharat scheme, the ending scene showing H JARA etc. It also portrays that ‘such people’ (Upper Class Casteists) are also Male Chauvinists (eg Nana asking the lady to touch his feet) even though all known facts point out that poorer women are subjected to more male chavunism since their opposition to such behaviour weakens due to lack of financial independence. Did any of you consider Kaala to be a propaganda movie and comment about it? No right! Because your definition of a propaganda movie seems to be : A movie that propagates an idea/agenda that YOU don’t like.
I don’t mind the above references in Kaala. But what frustrated me was that the hero, who is portrayed as ‘Our Guy/Leader’ is just a bully who seems to have accomplished nothing significant for his people, either in the past or the present of the movie and who also does not have any clear vision to improve their lives in the future (when Huma asks him ‘how many builders have you brought’ or when his son Lenin says ‘nowadays who works without any self interest’, Rajini doesn’t have any answer except ‘whatever problems you are having now, it will only multiply if you seek the help of “them”‘.. which makes me think “neeyum edhuvum seyya maata.. adhutavanayum seyya vida maata…
Poochandi (BJP) varaan’nu solliye makkala nee control pannuva”) And it is this fear-mongering bully who is potrayed as a leader/ideal to be followed.
Now, let me come to Uri. I don’t think soldiers NEED such movies but I am sure that they will be happy/positive about such a movie coming out. What I found ‘interesting’ is that when such a movie releases, a section of people don’t have anything much to say about what is ‘inside’ the movie (except criticism wherever possible) and A LOT to say about what is ‘outside’ the movie. And when talking about this LOT (in this case: whether the strike really happened, whether it should be made known to public, is the timing of the release suspect, does the movie exaggerate the role played by politicians/PM during such strikes, does such movies help the men in army etc.), they always speak as if THEY are the ones in possession of all the ‘real’ facts and hence their point of view is the only correct point of view. (Idha neenga ippadi daan purunjukkanum’nu adum pidippanga). If you look at the pattern of their speech, you can see a clear attempt to shift the narrative from the movie and any positivity attached to it. They do this because they are concerned that the ‘gullible masses’ may get emotionally moved by the movie and believe in the ‘lies spread by the evil people’. This concern stems from a smug sense of superiority that the masses are stupid and only WE know what is good for them (even better than themselves) . No wonder such people usually tend to be communists/’liberals’.
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Enigma
January 24, 2019
I am so glad that commie retards, jihadis, urban naxals and sundry anti-nationals are so offended by ‘Uri’ that they are frothing at the mouth😂😂😂. Well done to the makers. Nothing makes me happier than commie retards complaining about a ‘fictitious surgical strike that achieved nothing’. 😂😂😂. Quite similar to the Tamil Nadu ‘rationalist movement ‘ that achieved nothing.
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Anu Warrier
January 24, 2019
Wow, that sure deteriorated fast. No one except you, Isai, and you, Enigma resorted to ad hominem attacks – those of us who objected to the premise of Uri (and not the film which may have achieved what it set out to do) made our arguments in perfectly civil language. I actually love how ‘commie retard’ or ‘liberals’ is used so particularly because we don’t subscribe to a particular view.
a) Isai, I did not say anything about Kaala because I know next to nothing about the caste politics in Tamil Nadu. Was it a propaganda /message film? Perhaps it was. Others more knowledgeable than me on the subject can battle that one out.
b) Enigma, the only one who seems to be ‘frothing at the mouth’ at this point is you. I’m not offended by the film. At all. My response, as I made clear to BR (and that you would have know if you had cared to actually read my remark to see the context), was to MANK’s comment. I will reiterate that neither a film nor a government nor a nation’s army is above criticism – none of these make me or anyone else ‘anti-national’. You just prove my point when you say that anyone who didn’t like the film (or its premise) is either a “commie retard / jihadi/urban naxal/anti-national.
Discussions on these pages usually go off on tangents – that is true of many other reviews as well. We have had discussions on gender bias/racism/misogyny/ casteism/ classism and lord knows what else – BR’s reviews are just a starting point.
But since you seem so enthusiastic to name-call rather than actually debate a point, have fun.
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Arjun
January 24, 2019
@Isai: You may regard Kaala as propaganda if you wish to. But the key difference is that it disses the politics of a particular party without endorsing any other party,…and this is not problematic for me in a multi-party democracy.
Btw, (sorry for the tangent, BR), since you seem to be offended by the Ramayana references, there is a reason why the character of Rama is heavily criticized and regarded as particularly problematic by Periyarists and Ambedkarites. People like Subaveerapandiyan and Mathimaran repeatedly ask this question – Why did Rama kill Shambuka the shudra on the complaint of a Brahmin that he was performing penance? What are the implications of this episode? That shudras should be excluded from certain pursuits and in Ramarajya, they will be killed mercilessly for any transgressions.
“Nothing makes me happier than commie retards complaining about a ‘fictitious surgical strike that achieved nothing’. 😂😂😂. Quite similar to the Tamil Nadu ‘rationalist movement ‘ that achieved nothing.”
The Periyar movement yielded tangible benefits for the state- from education to self-respect marriages to healthcare to the promotion of non-bhakti tamil literature. Meanwhile what did the pinpricks,…err…surgical strikes achieve? Even BJP Bhakts admit in private that they changed nothing across the border.
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Enigma
January 24, 2019
@Anu Warrier, I was not referring to your posts. My comment was in response to a certain all knowing commie retard (not an abuse as commies are generally retards) who pompously declared that the surgical strike did not have an impact.
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Enigma
January 24, 2019
Surgical strikes have resulted in reduced cross-border terrorrism/infiltration attempts. I am sure it will continue to have a positive impact over the years.
Did the Tamil rationalist movement attempt to address the problems of Muslim women (or are DK/DMK talking about triple talaq now)? Are the Tamil rationalist organisations doing anything about the poli Christian samiyars sprouting all over Tamil Nadu and promising miracle cures?
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Arjun
January 24, 2019
@Enigma: You strike me as the sort of chap who believes that demonetization wiped out black money and terrorism overnight and that the 2000 Rs notes come embedded with a magic chip. In that case, I know of a Nigerian prince who can make you very rich very fast.
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Madan
January 24, 2019
Enigma : Er, if you are referring to Arjun, he actually has some right wing views and is no commie as far as I can tell. But OK, anybody who doesn’t uphold Brahminical pre-eminence is probably a commie to you. Now don’t tell me I am over generalising. You started it with the name calling.
The surgical strike could have been effective if as done in the past they had not been announced loudly with laughable parallels drawn by Parrikar to Hanuman burning Lanka. It would have been an effective deterrent without openly escalating the conflict, putting Pak in a bind. By trumpeting it, India gave Pak full rein to launch a counter offensive against India on the border that simply refuses to subside more than two years after the surgical strike. So this is a case of operation success patient failure. The stated objective of deterring Pak has not been achieved. Temporary solace was delivered to the people as a revenge but nobody is counting the mounting costs since then. India is fortunate that Drumpf replaced Obama in the office and HE has boxed Pak into a corner. There is no saying how things would have played out with Hillary taking office.
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Enigma
January 24, 2019
@Arjun, nothing can do anything about black money in India, thanks to 60 years of Congress misrule and corruption. At least Modi is trying.
@ Madan, it is the commies who unnecessarily criticise the army. Their loyalties lie elsewhere. And where does ‘Brahmanical pre-eminence’ come into the picture?
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Uncouth Village Youth
January 24, 2019
I agree with Isai & Enigma : Let each side make its own propaganda movies. We will see who wins in the people’s court of opinion. I would also like to see a movie made on how the Uri attacks were made possible, highlighting the systematic failures at every level.How an inept Govt and a weak PM allowed ~25 soldiers to be slaughtered,some possibly in cold blood within a year of Pathankot. There are a lot of angles to explore there. Folks who ranted at MMS for 26/11, where some terrorists attacked civilian targets, conveniently waited till the surgical strikes to laud Modi. This is like me, claiming credit from my manager, for bringing production back online after a five hour outage. I will be having a big ME target on my back during appraisal time – but our nationalist patriots gave a OS rating after the “surgical strike”.
The rationalist/anti – Hindi/self respect movement has propelled TN to greater heights since they took over power. It makes me happy that TN’s long resistance to Indianize itself, riles up some nationalists. I love how the “patriots” hand wring, shed crocodile tears and berate TN Hindus for being docile in their frustration. Guess what, be ready for more of the same in the coming years, because a lot of work is yet to be done.
“Did the Tamil rationalist movement attempt to address the problems of Muslim women (or are DK/DMK talking about triple talaq now)? Are the Tamil rationalist organisations doing anything about the poli Christian samiyars sprouting all over Tamil Nadu and promising miracle cures?”
This is a question I often encounter from virat patriotic Hindus. My answer is simple – why does the Govt. organize a massive vaccination drive, only for polio. Why not for other diseases? Why does it discriminate against children who suffer from other, equally devastating ills? If you understand the logic behind these decisions, you will get answers to your own questions.
Since I believe in preemptive strikes and precaution,unlike our patriots who only believe in corrective measures and retaliation, a few of them below.
Ans 1: No I didn’t compare Hinduism to Polio – that’s a figment of your imagination.
Ans 2: Yes, all religions have social ills,charlatans and stupid beliefs which need to be rooted out mercilessly. I actually prefer a religionless society.
Ans 3: Yes, I stand with the soldier just as I stand with the farmer. I also believe that soldiers don’t get a pass just because they are soldiers.
Ans 4: Yes, a movie can also be made on how a low energy PM was bullied into accepting a investigating team from Pakistan, after Pathankot.
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Isai
January 24, 2019
I don’t like/support the comment made by Enigma. I’ll speak up only for my own comments:
@Anu: Regarding Ad hominem attacks, I was not previously involved in any discussion in this thread. So, there is no question of me trying to avoid a discussion by attacking your character. I was only pointing out the hypocrisy of people who are calling this a propaganda movie, by mentioning that not even a single such comment was made about Kaala in this blog, despite that movie having far more elements of propaganda. The movie Kaala talks about the plight of Tamils living in Mumbai. It has almost nothing about the caste politics of Tamil Nadu, unlike say the movie Pariyerum Perumal. When CPM leader K Balakrishnan talked about the Sabarimala issue, he said that the Kerala Government is only implementing the Supreme Court order. When asked why the Kerala Government refuses to implement the court order on Jacobites Church issue, despite the order being given more than a year ago, he… said that he doesn’t know about the Jacobite issue and hence cannot talk about it. Your response to Kaala reminded me of his interview.
Yes, discussions do tend to go off on a tangent.. but in a movie review thread, it usually has the contents of the movie as the STARTING POINT.. here the fact that you had said very little about the content of this movie makes me feel that you just want to dissmiss this film as a piece of propaganda without discussing its contents.. Now, aren’t you making an ad hominem attack on this film and its makers?
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Madan
January 24, 2019
Enigma : He did not criticise the army but the govt. A distinction that I am sure was evident to you but you chose to play the army/nationalism card all the same.
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Isai
January 24, 2019
@Arjun: Today, India may have a multi-party democracy, but realistically we are only a bi-coalition democracy. (I really wish we get more options) In such a scenario, I feel dissing one party is equivalent to praising the other. In fact, portraying the opponent as ‘the greater evil’ is only a more cunning strategy that is easier to implement.
Regarding Shambuka, this is how I read/interpret that story. A young brahmin child dies unnaturally and his father complains to the king Rama that such unnatural deaths are occuring only due to his incompetence!! . When this gets discussed in the stage, sage Narada tells Rama that someone in his kingdom is doing a huge immoral act due to which such unnatural deaths are occuring. Rama sets out to investigate and comes across a person who is doing vigorous penance. Rama politely introduces himself to that person and asks him TWO questions: Why are you doing this penance? and Which varna do you belong to? Shambuka replies by first saying that he is a Shudra AND THEN says that he is performing this penance so that he can ascend to the heaven with his own body and live along with the gods. Immediately on hearing this reason, Rama beheads Shambuka! Now, the crucial question is did Rama kill Shambuka because of his varna or because of his penance/reason for the penance.
In Hinduism, it is believed that only souls go to heaven and no one can/should go to heaven with his/her mortal body. In fact, Rama’s ancestor King Trishanku once tried to similarly ascend to heaven using Sage Viswamitra’s help and gets stuck in the Sky. In Hinduism, it is also believed that one’s desires can be fulfilled on successful completion of rigorous penance. Now, when Rama meets Shambuka, his penance is about to get successfully completed which meant that he would have to be given something that is totally against the natural laws of the universe (It is a bit like one wanting the earth to stop rotating since he is afraid of the dark). Hence Rama beheads Shambuka so that there is no subversion of natural order and Shambuka’s desire for going to heaven gets fulfilled in the best possible manner. You may still ask why Rama asked about the Varna. I honestly don’t know. But, as far as I know, hereditary occupation was not compulsorily implemented in Rama’s period and hence Varna then meant only one’s occupation. Like say Viswamitra, who was a King (Shatriya) later became a Brahmarishi( Brahmana). Hence, if Shambuka had given any lame excuse as the reason for doing the penance (say I am doing penance only for bountiful rains), Rama wouldn’t be able to verify this and hence Rama’s verification of Shambuka’s varna can give him reasonable confidence that Shambuka was telling the truth (Brahmins were the people who were doing such penances as part of their occupation.) I don’t think Rama’s actions would have changed even if Shambuka was a brahmin. Similarly I don’t think Rama would have killed Shambuka if his reason for doing the penance was reasonable. You may have a different view. But what I totally dislike is that Periyarists including Su Ba Vee & Co will NEVER mention the question and answer about the reason for doing the penance. Especially, Su Ba Vee who would give sloka by sloka reference while discussing this topic, will conveniently OMIT the slokas about the reason for penance, even though the sloka about Shambuka’s reason for penance is immediately before the sloka mentioning his beheading. He almost always does such glaring omission tactics while quoting sloka numbers for any topic related to Hinduism (eg: Sita’s Agni Pariksha, Purusha Suktham etc.)
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Enigma
January 24, 2019
@Madan, read his posts again. They are clearly critical of the army.
@Isai, periyarists hypocrisy is nauseating. Whilst being critical of Hinduism, they turn a blind eye when it comes to Christianity or Islam. What kind of rationalism is that. What India needs is strict blasphemy laws. No one should have the right to insult any religion.
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Madan
January 24, 2019
@Isai : Sorry but criticism of govt doesn’t equate to praise of the other party. Any vigilant citizen should boldly criticise that which he thinks is wrong in a govt’s decision or action. If a party is so insecure that it suspects people criticising it are part of a larger conspiracy, then it does not deserve to run a democratic govt. Democracy doesn’t mean just voting and sitting right for five years. I am sure the many who criticised UPA were not taken to be BJP supporters. So vice versa must hold true as well. Of course some people who criticise a party may be sympathisers of the other one but those who believe all who voice adverse views of the govt are supporters of Cong simply reveal their inability to take on board any criticism of the govt.
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Srinivas R
January 24, 2019
@Isai: Thanks for the insight into the Shambuka story. That said, isn’t it reasonable to assume that his varna played a role in the whole incident? I am no rationalist but I abhor caste ism in it’s every form. The achievement of periyar and his rational movement as far as I see is making the society aware of how bloody unfair it is. His failure is confining the fight against casteism to a an anti-brahmin propaganda.
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Srinivas R
January 24, 2019
@UVY – The biggest achievement of this government is that no one in the mainstream will talk about their many mistakes, the pathankhot attack, the Uri attack, not to forget the flip flop around Pakistan. Modi is truly a godman, where any criticism against him will be countered by vehement support from his devotees.
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hari
January 24, 2019
Arjun – Periyar and Ambedkar in a single line (yeah yeah I know you used periyarists and ambedkarites), Ambedkar must be squirming from wherever he is resting right now. Only periyarists use Ambedkar’s name in some “study” circles, which is such a shame for Ambedkar’s legacy.
Hope you aren’t getting Ramayana lessons from “Subaveerapandiyan”.
Isai, good explanation, but IMHO no point giving answers for rhetorical questions.
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Rocky
January 24, 2019
It is always amusing that any talk about “Bharat”, Desh Bhakti, Nationalism invariably ends up being about BJP and Hinduism.
What does that tell you ?
Uri Uri Phir Uri Uri, Deshbhakti kee Josh Phir Uri Uri !!
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Kid
January 24, 2019
Isai: In complete agreement with your last two comments. Couldn’t have said it better.
MANK: Absolutely loved Uri. And thank you for saying this..
“Propaganda or not, Films that pay….country”
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Isai
January 24, 2019
@Madan: I was talking only about the movie Kaala. That movie would have been criticising the government if the government had made any attempt to remove/redevelop the slums of Mumbai. But it had done no such thing. It falsely co-relates Swach Bharat scheme, which is about keeping the roads clean and building toilets, with slum removal. As you yourself said, it disses the politics of the party (and not the government). On the other hand, if movies were made about how demonetisation affected the SMEs or about the ineptitude of the government that led to terrorist attacks, these would be criticsing the government. I would love to see such movies.
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Isai
January 24, 2019
@Srinivas:
“isn’t it reasonable to assume that his varna played a role in the whole incident? ”
Before answering your question, I would like you to ponder about this following real incident:
In the 1960s, a 25 year old guy gets an opportunity to meet one of the great leaders of this country. When the leader sees him, the first question he asks is: What caste do you belong to?. The guy is shocked into silence and doesn’t reply. The leader’s assistant then tells the guy that the leader only asked this question because he wants to know which castes of people are being attracted to him.
Now, how do you perceive this behavior of the leader? Now notice how your perception changes (at least slightly) when I tell you that the leader was:
a) Rajaji
b) Kamaraj
c) Periyar
Most people in TN would begin by having a poor opinion of this leader and then would give the benefit of doubt when they get to know that it was Periyar while not giving it in case it was Rajaji. This is because when we know the name of the leader, our evaluation of this incident doesn’t happen in isolation but is prejudiced by all the other information that we know about that leader.Now, imagine what happens when the other information ate obtained from biased second hand sources. All these only builds up to a strong confirmation bias. The link that mentions the above incident : https://youtu.be/mP59Diy5HYU (starts from 14:00)
Similarly, would your perception of the Shambuka incident change if the boy who was killed was not a brahmin? Would your perceptions differ if you are born into brahmin/dalit families? Would they differ, if you had bitter/sweet experiences with brahmin friends and their families in your childhood? Would it differ if your current terrific/terrible boss is a brahmin?
The answer to all the above questions is in IMO yes, at least to a small extent.
We don’t know much about how varna/jati systems evolved from their nascent stages to their current rigid form (as existing in at least the last few hundred years). Knowing how the system was during Rama’s time (or the time in which this ‘story’ was written) will help us better understand the motivation of Rama (or the intention of the Author). In the absence of this information, our perception would only be colored by our overall perception of Hinduism.
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Madan
January 25, 2019
Isai: Believe it or not, that kind of slum removal did happen in Indore. Poor families were driven out of the city so that it could win the cleanest city award. In Mumbai, no, at least not that I noticed! 😛 Still see slums in all the spots where I would have 5 years back. Again, swach India is a govt scheme, so criticism of it isn’t necessarily that of the party. Beyond that, I cannot comment as I did not see Kaala.
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Isai
January 25, 2019
Madan: Slum removal is constantly happening in almost all Asian and African countries. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-44931808
IMO, the problem is the director initially got to know the plight of Tamilians living in Dharavi and decides to make a film about it. He documents their lifestyle and the problems faced by them very authentically. Since he wanted to cast Rajinikanth playing his age, he successfully weaves a beautiful family story in this backdrop. So far so good. But Rajinikanth is not a Rajesh or Nasser. His Superstar image needs to be factored in. He needs ‘mass’ scenes. So Ranjith decides to take the issue of uprooting of people from their homes (which has been happening in Mumbai since the time of Nayagan but not so much in the last 4-5 years.) and portray the builder-politician nexus as the antagonists. A very common plotline for Mumbai based Tamil Films (Nayagan, Thalaivaa etc.) but still okay. Now, he decides to portray the villain as someone resembling the leaders of BJP. He spends considerable amount of footage to establish this. There is not much depth in these portions but still he can be indulged. But he also wants to draw parallels between this story and the mythological/historical story of Ramayana, to show that this kind of atrocities has always been happening against the downtrodden. But the problem is that there is no parallel between the two. The Mahabharata, in essence is a story about property dispute. But, the Ramayana has no land related issue. So when he spends a considerable amount of footage in trying to draw these parallels, the audience is confused because they don’t see any obvious connect (say unlike the movie Raavan(an)). While spending time in drawing these parallels with Ramayana and BJP, the director fails to establish the significance of the lead character. There is no reason given on why the people of Dharavi are in so much awe of him (unlike say Nayagan which traces the growth of the character’s status organically). Also, Rajini’s character and (its director) doesn’t have any clear idea on how to improve the lives of the people. So, Rajini is there but doesn’t get to do much. This may be okay for other audiences but this is not what the tamil audience expects from a Rajinikanth movie. That is why the movie, which has many touching moments, gets bogged down by the political agenda.
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sai16vicky
January 25, 2019
@Arjun: “The Periyar movement yielded tangible benefits for the state- from education to self-respect marriages to healthcare to the promotion of non-bhakti tamil literature.”
I have seen this here and elsewhere but a lot of people wrongly attribute the high literacy rate, women’s safety, self-respect and healthcare to Periyar’s movement. There is either no statistical evidence to connect these events and no causal relationship of improved parameters with Periyar’s movement (Please correct me if otherwise). Most of these parameters are simply better because of the focus by the governments on educating the girl child. Further, the influence of the regional leaders in national politics (Kamaraj, Rajaji, Bhaktavatsalam), in drafting the constitution (Alladi Krishnaswamy Iyer) and in the union cabinet (Shanmugam Chettiar, TT Krishnamachari) ensured good schemes for Tamil Nadu right from the beginning. To attribute all this to Periyar’s movement (which IMO was all about pitting one group against the other — bringing the Naickers, Gounders into the fore and sidelining Brahmins) is definitely misleading.
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Honest Raj
January 25, 2019
Isai: It also portrays that ‘such people’ (Upper Class Casteists) are also Male Chauvinists (eg Nana asking the lady to touch his feet) even though all known facts point out that poorer women are subjected to more male chavunism since their opposition to such behaviour weakens due to lack of financial independence.
This reminds me of an excerpt from Sudhir Srinivasan’s review of Sivaranjiniyum Innum Sila Pengalum :
“Quite interestingly, Vasanth doesn’t bite into the upper class and its methods of suppression in any of the three films — perhaps because sexism is more rampant in the economically backward classes?”
About the scene, Nana asking Huma Qureshi to touch his feet is not an indication of his chauvinistic nature but more of the character’s authoritarian trait (the character could very well be a chauvinist but not in this context). Remember, he also asks Rajini to do the same when the latter gets beaten up by the police and his men. Also, when Rajini visits his house after his wife’s death, Nana asks his granddaughter to touch Rajini’s feet (which is more of a sign to show respect to elders).
All that said, I agree, references to Modi, Swach Bharat et al., were unnecessary.
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hari
January 25, 2019
@Srinivas “Modi is truly a godman, where any criticism against him will be countered by vehement support from his devotees.” – Sir it is a fashion to be anti-modi in our Tamizh naadu, if you do say anything in support of Modi you will be called Bakth/sombhu/paapan (what not), on the other hand can you imagine a politician trying to make his career saying “anti-periyar” stuff in our Tamizh naadu? He will be committing a political harakiri then and there.
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Srinivas R
January 25, 2019
@hari – completely agree with what you said about Periyar and TN. It’s not something I am ok with. Deification of any political leader only limits how we think about solutions to issues facing us. Also agree about the hatred for Modi in TN, but at least IMO, there is sufficient justification for that.
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Isai
January 25, 2019
@Honest Raj: I was reminded of this dialogue by Huma “Learn to shake hands with women, that is only equality”. When Nana comes to meet Rajini, he is introduced to all womanfolk of Rajini’s family but when Rajini goes to meet Nana, the women are shunted out in the kitchen. The fact that he asks his grand daughter to touch Rajini’s feet (note: Rajini shakes hands instead) makes me think that he is more of a male chavunist than a casteist ie in his universe, (even upper caste) women are inferior to lower caste men. For the past 20 years, I have seen how alcoholism wreaks havoc on the poorer sections of the society. This mostly leads to wife beating since the man is usually short of funds for his daily drink. While Ranjith portrays alcoholism quite well, he is totally silent on wife beating and other forms of male domination in slums. Here again I feel his political agenda overcame the needs of authenticity.
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Honest Raj
January 25, 2019
“Learn to shake hands with women, that is only equality”
This one is from the IT review:
Ranjith doesn’t show how Zareena reacts to Hari Dada’s jibe nor did she fall at his feet. All we get to see is an angry Zareena walking out of his house. Later, when their cause is fulfilled, she sees Hari Dada and utters the dialogue which is roughly translated to, “A leader isn’t one who makes others fall at his feet. Learn to shake hands and practice equality”
“The fact that he asks his grand daughter to touch Rajini’s feet (note: Rajini shakes hands instead) makes me think that he is more of a male chavunist than a casteist ie in his universe, (even upper caste) women are inferior to lower caste men.”
As far as my memory serves me right, he doesn’t shake hands with her either. Instead, says a namaste would do.
About “upper” caste women being seen as inferior to men (regardless of their castes), yes, it’s been the norm. Caste system and patriarchy are closely interrelated with each other and impact almost every section of our society.
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Isai
January 26, 2019
@Honest Raj: You are right about those two scenes. My bad.
But I don’t think women of the ‘upper castes’ were considered inferior to the men of the ‘lower castes’ in India. Patriarchy existed within each caste but was not more powerful than the caste hierarchy.
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Arjun
January 27, 2019
Madan: Thanks for the support, but enigma is correct. I have sympathies for the ordinary jawans, but in general have a very dim view of our army as an institution, which I consider to be inept and incompetent. It is basically descended from the British Indian army and is still organized along caste lines (Gorkha rifles, Jat regiment, mahar regiment, Maratha infantry). Most of these proudly trace their lineage to the British sepoy regiments and indeed celebrate it. Their only achievements after independence is killing their own citizens at will…a continuation of their legacy from British times (cf the examples I cited above). Moreover the uffsar class is notoriously corrupt, and with their unimpressive physique and fitness standards, are less warriors than middle-aged pen-pushing bureaucrats. Even in Uri and Pathankot, notice how inefficient and slow they are at dispatching a handful ofrag-tag terrorists inside the fucking army HQ..As a comparison, even Pakistan takes only a few hours to neutralize similar small groups of terrorists. My theory is that the political and military leadership together invented the fictious “surgical strikes” as a morale-booster and face saver for the rank and file after having been thoroughly exposed in Uri (Kaipullai comedy comes to mind).
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Enigma
January 27, 2019
Arjun’s views on the army is a typical commie one. They completely ignore the success that the army had in thrashing the pakis in 4 different wars and also liberating Bangladesh. The commies also ignore the good work done by the army to help the common citizens during natural disasters. In fact the commie view is closely aligned with the pakis. I wouldn’t be surprised if these commies were the ones managing the notorious twitter handle, porkistan defence whatever. These commies are funded by the porkis and the chinkis.
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Madan
January 27, 2019
“My theory is that the political and military leadership together invented the fictious “surgical strikes” as a morale-booster and face saver for the rank and file after having been thoroughly exposed in Uri (Kaipullai comedy comes to mind).” – I would not call it an outlandish theory. I could state the reasons why but there would be another explosion in this space and it’s not worth it. To these reasons, I would add another – right wing news channels ratcheting up the temperature and forcing the govt to ‘do something’. Modi found himself handcuffed by his own laaton ke booth baaton se nahi marte brag when he was in the opposition and had to do something to live up to his image.
But as for the comparison with Pak, I don’t completely go along with you as India has won defensive wars against them every time. I would add that Pak army neutralising terrorists is more like quelling a friendly fire whereas ‘terrorists’ operating in Mumbai during 26/11 were either Pak army folks in all but name or ISI operatives; totally different ballgame. That is, I don’t think of the Indian army as a world beater but nor do I think it is particularly inferior to Pak. Logic dictates that had this been the case, Pak could have got all of Kashmir and maybe even Punjab during the unipolar years. With Yelstin destroying Russia and America enjoying its biggest post war boom since the Ike years, nothing could have stopped them. And this calls the bluff on Pak constantly insisting that India was lying and it was Pak who won the 65 and 71 wars. If this was so, they wouldn’t have to still fight to grab Kashmir from India. They had the chance and couldn’t get it done, simple as that. Because their army is akin to the Pak pace battery that thought they could fight fire with fire in Aus and came back with a humiliating 0-3 defeat. Self-overrating in other words.
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Enigma
January 27, 2019
Madan, you are wasting your time trying to talk reason to a commie. They are on porkistan’s payroll. We need to neutralise the commies, not reason with them.
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Madan
January 27, 2019
Enigma: If he is a commie, then he is one living in the US. You on the other hand are a right wing traditionalist safely residing in Aus from where you preach values for India that if applied in Aus would probably result in your deportation. To me, both are equally as dangerous or insignificant as far as India’s political process is concerned. You make of that what you will.
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TambiDude
January 27, 2019
“You on the other hand are a right wing traditionalist safely residing in Aus from where you preach values for India that if applied in Aus would probably result in your deportation. ”
Really!!!
Aus, like Canada has a national policy of allowing legal immigration as a % of population because of low native population. Unless Enigma went to Aus an an illegal immigrant, there is no comparison with situation in india where the immigrants in Assam and other parts of india are 100% illegal at worst or at best came here un-invited due to situation in neighboring countries (1971, Mayannmar Rohingyas), which in other words means the host country can ask them to leave any time. And may I remind you that India is not a signatory to UN Refugee convention.
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Madan
January 27, 2019
“us, like Canada has a national policy of allowing legal immigration as a % of population because of low native population.” – Oh please, don’t give me the reasons for why it is so; I know and that is not the point. Enigma derailed a whole other thread insisting that women in India were not following traditional Indian values and that he felt more able to preserve Indian culture living in Australia away from the influence of Bollywood. The fact is he is able to do that because Australia is secular and tolerates diversity, the same thing he does not want in India. That was the context of my saying if Australia were made over the way he would like India to be, he would not be able to live in Aus. And I have no compunctions about calling it out as hypocritical to the core. Get back to me when the lot of you are able to respect democracy and then we can talk about how to stave off communist insurgencies propelled by er, an anonymous guy on a blog. Er, did you read what he wrote to Arjun? Commies should be neutralised? Really, is there no respect for diversity of opinions on even a blog space? If so, why do you guys moan that right wingers get badmouthed when that is exactly what you do to everyone who doesn’t agree with you and with zero provocation most of the time? If you condone how Enigma addressed Arjun, then allow me to also talk to Enigma in the only language he understands.
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Tambi Dude
January 27, 2019
OK, I did not know the context as I hardly recollect any postings of Engima. I don’t follow this blog as much as I use to. In fact hardly. Seems like there is more to it than meets the eye.
I am in no way condoning any of the messages by RW dolts. There are enuf idiots on that side, who are as venomous as Mani Shankar Iyer who told to his Pakistani host that Modi should be removed (Euphemism for assassination).
Sorry. Now you can go back to your scheduled flaming (who ever is your current dart board).
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Arjun
January 27, 2019
Madan: The main advantage the indian military enjoys vis-a-vis Pak is numerical. Otherwise we don’t even manufacture our own weapons. In 1971, had the Soviets not helped us, Pak with US assistance would have beat us. Plus remember pak was stretched thin because of the logistical difficulty of moving troops across from west to east Pakistan. This was in infact the decisive factor. Regardong your point about Pak’s handling of terror attacks, compared to india they are threatened by much more deadly Taliban terrorists and each time their SSG prices that are better trained and efficient than the Indian army is.
Enigma: Bro, call me what you will, but the fact is that except for its size, the Indian army is among the most incompetent in the world. Believe me, I do wish well for our army., but facts can’t be changed.
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Enigma
January 28, 2019
Madan, as Tambi dude has rightly pointed out, I am a legal immigrant (decided to move here when the disastrous UPA was ruling India). I respect Aussie culture, values, government, army and we as a family are well integrated. Commies are Indian citizens who criticise and belittle the Indian army, an institution that needs to be respected. Hope you can see the difference.
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Arjun
January 28, 2019
” If this was so, they wouldn’t have to still fight to grab Kashmir from India. They had the chance and couldn’t get it done, simple as that. Because their army is akin to the Pak pace battery that thought they could fight fire with fire in Aus and came back with a humiliating 0-3 defeat. Self-overrating in other words.”
Allow me to extend the cricket analogy. Like I said, believe it or not, I do wish well for our armed forces, much as I do for our cricket team. But let’s think back to how we got to where we are now. If back in the 90s, we had fooled ourselves into thinking that a pace attack comprising Venkatesh Prasad and Javagal Srinath – with a Debashish Mohanty, Manoj Prabhakar or Abey Kuruvilla as third seamers – was good enough to win us test matches abroad, today we would have been exactly in the same position as then. Yes, we were an incompetent and shitty cricket team in the 90s, with a shitty bowling attack, overdependent on the brilliance of SRT and Kumble to win us matches single handedly. Yes, Pakistan were consistently the better team then. Unless we had acknowledged these realities, no change would have been possible. But we did, and the structural changes that were brought in, the new emphasis on fitness and advanced coaching facilities for bowlers is what has today finally led to India boasting of a world class pace attack. Likewise, we must acknowledge that the Indian military is a bloated, obsolete beast whose organization, ethos and philosophy has changed little since the British times. Just like the Indian team of the 90s, it is basically incompetent and whole-scale structural changes are needed.
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Tambi Dude
January 28, 2019
“In 1971, had the Soviets not helped us, Pak with US assistance would have beat us. ”
OK I bite it. Show me one non pakistani book which corroborates your viewpoint. I have read couple of books on 1971, including the gold standard Blood Telegram and not one of them mentions India losing the war even remotely.
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Madan
January 28, 2019
@Enigma : The point isn’t whether YOU respect Australian culture. The point is THEY respect your right to follow what culture you wish to within the boundaries of their law. IF they had the same attitude towards you as you have towards those Indians whom you claim don’t follow Indian culture, your life in Aus would become very difficult.
As for criticism of the army, there is nothing wrong with that as long as the person criticising isn’t plotting against the army. You have zero proof that Arjun did that. You just assume that anyone criticising the army is a Commie insurgent.
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Madan
January 28, 2019
@Arjun Your analysis of how the Indian team overcame its problems in the 90s is accurate but doesn’t address how India escaped from Pak during the unipolar years.
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Enigma
January 28, 2019
Madan, the army is highly respected institution here, its contribution to the allied cause in the two world wars is cherished and celebrated. Australian army’s role in the Afghan and Iraq war is also appreciated. I haven’t seen any criticism of the army here. There are some debates around Australia Day (jan 26th) and the National anthem (advance Australia fair) as these are considered to be offensive to indigenous Australians but again these do not involve the army. I doubt if Australian government or the political parties will tolerate anyone disrespecting the Armed forces. With respect to your point about Australia allowing to practice my culture, when I did say that India should not permit its minorities to follow their culture.
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Tambi Dude
January 29, 2019
“I haven’t seen any criticism of the army here. ”
Criticism of Army and Police is also considered off limits in US media. They will trash cops on a case by case basis (like when a white cop shoots black person), but it is considered un-american to bash cops as a force or army veterans.
The problem with India is that it is 3rd world in economic standards and 3rd rate in social values. Just yesterday a MP from south got jailed for showing a photo of Modi with a begging bowl. Few months ago defense analysts ABhijit Iyer Mitra was jailed for 5 weeks for a crude joke about Orissa temples.
And here is Anand Rangnathan bashing our sabke pyaare chachji Nehru for his limitless love for freedom of speech:
Oh boy, ram raajya is coming back in 6 months. Uske baad sab theek ho jayega.
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Enigma
January 29, 2019
Tambi dude, India is a 3rd rate country because of our politicians and our people. If our politicians are corrupt scumbags out to cheat anytwho come their way, our people ( a majority of them) are no better. Bunch of lazy bastards who sit on their asses and expect money to fall from the trees. No where is this more apparent than in Tamil Nadu, the land of periyar and freebies. There people vote on the basis of bribes, TVs, grinders, idlis and what not. The more corrupt you are the better are your chances of winning. Indians do not deserve Modi, they would prefer the corrupt Gandhis, Mayawati, DMK etc. as that would mean more freebies.
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Tambi Dude
January 29, 2019
watch this. This lady rocks. The venom she shows in Tamil is LOL worthy.
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Madan
January 29, 2019
Tambi Dude /Enigma : of course the military industrial complex of America does not like criticism of the army, else how will they hide bogus and needless wars like Iraq. Now if that is the kind of county you would like India to become, we are never going to see eye to eye.
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Karthik
January 29, 2019
If our politicians are corrupt scumbags out to cheat anytwho come their way, our people ( a majority of them) are no better. Bunch of lazy bastards who sit on their asses and expect money to fall from the trees
Wow…the mind truly boggles!
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Arjun
January 29, 2019
@Madan: “Your analysis of how the Indian team overcame its problems in the 90s is accurate but doesn’t address how India escaped from Pak during the unipolar years.”
As I said, only numerical superiority and Soviet support. If the Soviets had not stood by us, history would be different.
@Tambi Dude: You don’t need a book for that. Simple wikipedia and the references therein are sufficient – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1971#United_States_and_Soviet_Union
Without Soviet backing, India was dead meat. I’m not saying Pak would have won by themselves, but with US support (and hypothetical Soviet neutrality), India would have had no chance. An excerpt from the wiki entry –
“Then U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, George Bush, Sr, introduced a resolution in the UN Security Council calling for a cease-fire and the withdrawal of armed forces by India and Pakistan.[134]:73 However, it was vetoed by the Soviet Union, and the following days witnessed the use of great pressure on the Soviets from the Nixon-Kissinger duo to get India to withdraw, but to no avail.[141]
When Pakistan’s defeat in the eastern sector seemed certain, Nixon deployed Task Force 74 – led by the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise – into the Bay of Bengal. Enterprise and its escort ships arrived on station on 11 December 1971.[142]:xxxx According to a Russian documentary, the United Kingdom also deployed a carrier battle group led by the aircraft carrier HMS Eagle to the Bay,[133][143][better source needed] on her final deployment.
On 6 and 13 December, the Soviet Navy dispatched two groups of cruisers and destroyers from Vladivostok;[133] they trailed US Task Force 74 into the Indian Ocean from 18 December 1971 until 7 January 1972. The Soviets also had a nuclear submarine to help ward off the threat posed by the USS Enterprise task force in the Indian Ocean.[144][145]
As the war progressed, it became apparent to the United States that India was going to invade and disintegrate Pakistan in a matter of weeks, therefore President Nixon spoke with the USSR Secretary General Leonid Brezhnev on a hotline on 10 December, where Nixon reportedly urged Brezhnev to restrain India as he quoted: “in the strongest possible terms to restrain India with which … you [Brezhnev] have great influence and for whose actions you must share responsibility.”[146]
After the war, the United States accepted the new balance of power and recognised India as a dominant player in South Asia; the US immediately engaged in strengthening bilateral relations between the two countries in the successive years.[147]:69 The Soviet Union, while being sympathetic to Pakistan’s loss, decided to engage with Pakistan after sending an invitation through Rodionov to Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, who paid a state visit to the Soviet Union in 1972 to strengthen bilateral relations that continued over the years.[148]:16”
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Arjun
January 29, 2019
“Criticism of Army and Police is also considered off limits in US media.”
Surely, the same is true of Indian media also. Even someone like Barkha Dutt who sanghis love to hate idolizes the army. But in comment boards and forums, Americans are plenty critical about the misadventures of their military and indeed, the whole military industrial complex.
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Madan
January 29, 2019
@Arjun : Even in the 90s? Have my doubts, the Union itself having collapsed and Russia in the midst of a deep depression.
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Honest Raj
January 29, 2019
Who’s this lady? H. Raja would look like a flaming liberal in front of her!
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Enigma
January 29, 2019
Arjun, even going by your own account pak could not have defeated India without the US’s help.
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Enigma
January 29, 2019
Saw a portion of the interview, that lady does talk sense. It is a liberal disease to brand anyone who talks the truth as fundamentalist.
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Tambi Dude
January 29, 2019
That was one war which Pak was destined to lose even before it started thanks to genocide in East Pak. India’s objective was clear. To secede EP. India secured USSR’s help primarily to check China as India was worried that if China moved its troop in the Ind-china border, India will be stretched thin for resources.
All along US had no interest or even capacity to enter into the war? WHy? Because the US public and congress were sick of US’s involvement in the Vietnam war and another needless war in far off south asia was not in their interest. Nixon would have never got Cong approval from his own (R) party, let alone (D) party. The arrival of US 7th fleet in the Bay of Bengal was to scare Indians and Indians happily called the bluff.
The war was effectively over in just 4 days. Even before 3 Dec, Pak army was getting battered in EP by Mukthi Bahini and Indian army acting in guerilla mode.
“Though Niazi waxed eloquent about his prowess and about not surrendering, the reality was just the opposite. One of his colleagues, Gen. Rao Farman Ali, told the Hamoodur Rahman Commission that Niazi’s morale had collapsed as early as 7 December. As evidence, he cited a meeting between Niazi and the governor, A.M. Malik, who was to be briefed on the military campaign. According to Farman Ali: ‘The Governor had hardly said a few words when General Niazi started crying loudly. I had to send the bearer out. The Governor got up from his chair, patted him, and said a few consoling words.’ This was the decisive moment that prompted the governor to repeatedly urge Rawalpindi to agree to a ceasefire.
(Source Owen Bennet Jones, Pakistan: Eye of the Storm, Lahore: Vanguard Books, 2002, pp. 183–84 )
”
Reach out to me at tambidude at fastmail.com for more details.
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Srinivas R
January 29, 2019
Bunch of lazy bastards who sit on their asses and expect money to fall from the trees – Oh boy. I presume you haven’t actually had any conversation with any of these “lazy bastards”. You know what they say about walking in someone’s shoes before judging them?
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Tambi Dude
January 29, 2019
Madan: Learn the difference between CIA and army. The WMD hoax was a CIA goof up and they have a long history of having a political agenda to suit’s american’s interest. Eg: The overthrowing of democratically elected regime in Iran in 1954.
The “off limits” I am talking about is writing about the boots on the ground or domestically writing about cops as a bad force. You won’t find US media writing atrocities of their army in AFG and IRAQ , unless something drastically happens like that case of Abu Gairab (sp?). It has nothing to do with military complex. It is just a self imposed media rule to not trash them.
Few years ago there was protest against cops during Black Lives Matter movement, but that was overdue thanks to long standing atrocities against them.
OTOH in India, media loves exaggerating Indian Army’s atrocities in Kashmir without realizing that without Pak support Kashmir separatism movement will not last a month.
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TambiDude
January 29, 2019
“Bunch of lazy bastards who sit on their asses and expect money to fall from the trees – Oh boy. I presume you haven’t actually had any conversation with any of these “lazy bastards”. You know what they say about walking in someone’s shoes before judging them?”
Forget about India, I can safely say that the same is happening in USA too. Any one who thinks uncontrolled 3rd rate immigration from the southern border of USA will not have a change in the social fabric of USA can be called as an idiot or liberal or democrat. These 3rd rate immigrants come with a sense of entitlement seen only in socialist latin American countries where a country like Venezuela , sitting on huge oil deposits is still one of the poorest country. They will start voting for US politicians (read Dems) who will show socialistic attitude.
The latest darling of liberals in US is Alexanderia Oscar-Cortez, one of the youngest ever to be elected in the house, defeating a strong incumbent. She is already creating more news in the social media than the top 4 media companies put together. Apart from showing great Bollywood dancing skills, she shows tremendous economic skills by suggesting free healthcare, free education for all. Every time she opens (shits) from her mouth, I gloat because Dems deserve a leader like her. This is what happens when a waitress/bartender becomes an elected official. She will ensure that few remaining thinking americans, who still support Dem, would abandon Dem forever.
“The problem with socialism is that eventually you will run out of others money” – Margaret Thatcher.
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Srinivas R
January 29, 2019
I disagree with lot of things you say, but “without Pak support Kashmir separatism movement will not last a month.” – complete agree.
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Madan
January 29, 2019
Tambi Dude : I am not aware of media ‘exaggerating’ Indian army’s atrocities in Kashmir and the media is very much on the army’s side. The problem with you guys is you get filtered information about the situation here when you live away from India and stray reportage possibly appears like some gigantic anti national conspiracy. There’s no there there. After surgical strike I remember NDTV anchors openly mocked Pakistani former armymen claiming there had been no such strike. But of course you guys will only pick up the negative reporting of NDTV or other non-right wing outlets.
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Apu
January 29, 2019
Tambi Dude: I do not know which part of US or which US you live in, but no, criticizing police force is not considered off limits or anti-American.
Defense forces are different though – mostly because of the fact that they follow orders given by policy makers – so the individual bravery or acts are less questioned than those that gave those orders. Also, there is the whole image of these folks leaving their family behind to march into risky areas etc and supposedly helping countries govern themselves. US interference into other countries is handled a lot through its armed forces, and no one will want that criticized within the country. NOT something that I would be proud of India to be.
So, yes, I agree: “You won’t find US media writing atrocities of their army in AFG and IRAQ”. But then, neither does Israeli media about their atrocities on Palestine. And many people compare Palestine to Kashmir – hence the difference in reporting about Indian army in Kashmir.
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Isai
January 29, 2019
“You know what they say about walking in someone’s shoes before judging them?”
I don’t approve of Enigma’s language or the political conclusions reached by him, but I am worried about some of the recent incidents:
Why was Rs. 1000 given to ALL families having ration cards? There was a roadblock (saalai marial) demanding it and condemning the judge who had asked to distribute this only to the needy.
Why are our youngsters getting caught in Andhra cutting and smuggling Red Sanders trees (Semmaram) when people from as far as Assam are working here as security guards?
Why POOR people are spending 1000 rupees pee ticket to watch movies FDFS. Yes, this happens in other states too but the people there who pay for such tickets tend to be well off. It is only in Tamil Nadu where youngsters set their father on fire for refusing to give 1000 rupees for watching movies FDFS.
Quite a few of my relatives are TN Govt. employees. In the past 25 years, I have seen how their salaries have risen at a much higher rate when compared to private sector employees (and at some levels, even when compared with central govt. employees). Yet, they are on strike today with some exorbitant demands like backdated pay for 3 years.
Free rice, freebies like TV, fomenting a culture of alcoholism through free distribution and bribing voters with cash : My maid’s kid waited with his mother to collect the Rs. 1000. That night, he saw his father getting drunk, beating his mother, snatching her Rs.1000 and then giving double rate for getting a black ticket to watch first night show of a pongal movie. The main reason why my maid is able to put up with this behavior is the free rice scheme. Next day, the kid sees his mom getting their employers’ ration cards so that she can buy sugar for them. She also uses their cards to buy some other items which have quantity restrictions per card. She uses some of these items and sells the remaining in the open market for a small profit. Before delivering the sugar, she also ‘steals’ two fistfuls of sugar from each 4.5kg bag. I won’t be surprised if a kid who grows up watching this ends up burning his parents for cash or going for red sanders smuggling.
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TambiDude
January 30, 2019
“US interference into other countries is handled a lot through its armed forces, and no one will want that criticized within the country. ”
And you claim you live in US???
US interference in other countries is part of foreign policy which is controlled more by State Dept and its blue eyed dept CIA. US Armed forces are apolitical in the sense that they don’t change policies on their own.
In American media the culture of criticizing FP has been there for a long time, right from the Vietnam war. I however agree that CIA is a powerful deep-state. Still I see more criticism of CIA, FP than the armed forces which merely acts on the order and sends boots on the ground.
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Rohit Sathish Nair
February 5, 2019
https://www.rediff.com/movies/column/uri-election-propaganda-or-genre-flick/20190205.htm
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