Read the full article on Firstpost, here: https://www.firstpost.com/entertainment/on-valentines-day-filmmakers-love-letters-to-each-other-from-wes-anderson-on-ray-to-del-toro-on-hitchcock-6079151.html
This Valentine’s Day, let’s celebrate love differently. Not with a list of films about love. Not with a list of great love scenes. Not with a list of great love stories between stars. So what then? Oftentimes, when a director achieves something great, he/she inspires envy, but sometimes, he/she also inspires the purest kind of love from a fellow filmmaker, and the appreciation feels almost like a love letter.
Let’s begin with Jean-Luc Godard going into raptures about Charlie Chaplin:
“He is beyond praise because he is the greatest of all. What else can one say? The only filmmaker, anyway, to whom one can apply without misunderstanding that very misleading adjective, ‘humane’… Today one says Chaplin as one says Da Vinci — or rather Charlie, like Leonardo.”
Akira Kurosawa watched ‘Solaris’ (1972) with Andrei Tarkovsky. He then wrote about the experience.
When the film was over, [Tarkovsky] stood up, looking at me as if he felt timid. I said to him, “Very good. It makes me feel real fear.” Tarkovsky smiled shyly, but happily. And we toasted vodka at the restaurant in the Film Institute. Tarkovsky, who didn’t drink usually, drank a lot of vodka, and went so far as to turn off the speaker from which music had floated into the restaurant, and began to sing the theme of samurai from Seven Samurai at the top of his voice. As if to rival him, I joined in. For I was at that moment very happy to find myself living on Earth.
Continued at the link above.
Copyright ©2019 Firstpost.
Baradwaj Rangan 
MANK
February 14, 2019
Saar you redefine the term prolific. this much amount of writing ,with daily dispatches, reviews, first post articles , ufff….wish i could write even 10 percent as proficient as you
This a superb piece . i just loved loved loved it. there is nothing like filmmakers talking about the works of other filmmakers
He was a celluloid painter, as close to an impressionist as you can be on film. More than that, I think he was the pictorial Shakespeare of our time.
Cant disagree with Spielberg. Francis coppola wrote to the Nobel Prize wallas that they should give a nobel prize to Kurosawa. they wrote back that they wont accept recommendations for the prize 🙂
I love about it too: it’s realistic, but it also calls back a different time period in movies when you could do stuff like that and not think about it twice. When I watch it on video I find that scene moving and very, very charming; I don’t laugh at it at all.
Agree with Tarantino. I just love Rio Bravo and i am very moved by that scene he mentioned. it comes right after Chance, Dude and Colorado has reached a sort of understanding after a volatile period of bickering with Dude suffering from his alcoholism . Its like those buddy buddy songs from Manmohan desai film. BTw its the 60th anniversary of Rio Brao and guess i gotta write something about it
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Madan
February 14, 2019
Seconding MANK. Very novel approach to Valentine’s Day. Who said actor’s get to make all the love! Wonder if Kubrick did make the important film that Welles was looking for? I mean did Welles think of it as important.
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Anu Warrier
February 14, 2019
Very interesting post. And yes, novel in its execution as well.
I grinned at Orson Welle’s summation of Kubrick – seemed to be an implication that he, too, was a talent that was unsurpassed by any of his generation.
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Madan
February 14, 2019
Don’t know quite where else to post this, but Ryan Adams. And then the men will come up with these cute theories about why women don’t get successful in music (ah, too cerebral for them, you know). Yeah, nothing whatsoever to do with exploitative creatures like Adams.
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Isai
February 15, 2019
@Madan: There are two sides to the story. In the NYTimes article I read, if you look beyond the tone and intent of the article, you will notice that most of these interactions were initiated by women, they had not immediately ‘tuned out’ when the behavior turned sexual and have voiced out only when their expectations from him didn’t ‘materialise’. The problem is some women don’t hesitate to use their sexuality as a tool to achieve their aims, whether it is career advancement or finding a rich husband or even manipulating their husbands.
None of these woman claim to have approached Adams because they liked his music. Instead, only the ‘sweet smell of success’ seems to have attracted them. When you approach a person like Adams, who has a well publicised addiction and mental health issue and are continuing to engage with him despite clear hints of abusive behavior, it is because of your own greed to take the shortcut to success. When you take such gambles, you may succeed or you may not. But you can’t claim to be a victim just when you haven’t succeeded.
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Madan
February 15, 2019
Isai : Aside from other things, I would like to point out that one of the ‘women’ was a teenage girl back when Adams assaulted her with videos of you know what. It is already the subject of an FBI investigation, expectedly.
The other thing is whether or not the particular allegations against Adams were true (and the alacrity with which his new album release has been pulled is a strong indication of whither the truth lies) , the pattern is familiar and known in the music industry. A British singer who enjoyed most of her modest success in the 70s mentioned that several big shots in the industry promised her overnight success in return for favours of the sexual kind. She turned them down. Good, way to go, you say. But the catch is she is not a household name and has never had those platinum selling hits and all that. So the price extracted by the industry from those women who maintain their integrity is also very high. Sure, we all have to deal with integrity vs growth trade-offs but for neither gender should the price be that of one’s body. There is a view – or at least was before MeToo – that it is normal, the done thing to extract such favours out of women if they want to be in showbiz. That has to change. Rogue individuals can only be addressed on a case by case basis but the institution itself needs reform.
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Anu Warrier
February 15, 2019
Isai, I don’t think you understand how exploitation works. Some of the ‘women’ that Adams targeted were kids, for heavens’ sake!
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Vikram S
February 15, 2019
BR, what a super way to write about love and movie makers…I loved this line ‘ For I was at that moment very happy to find myself living on Earth’….
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Isai
February 15, 2019
@Madan: The NY Times article talks about the experiences of 7 women. Out of which, 6 were in the age group 20-35. The article also states that the 7th woman was 15 and and had lied about being 18+.That’s difficult to figure, especially when you meet only online. Now, Ryan may be a sick freak and the FBI should indict him in case he had knowingly interacted with an underage girl.
But, what I object to is the claim of the other 6 ‘innocent’ women of being exploited. The only leverage which Ryan had over these women is a chance to succeed quickly. That IMO is not the same as being financially dependent on your job and having 2 kids to feed. So, there was no need and it was osnly greed that made these women continue to engage with Ryan in spite of his despicable behaviour. I am sympathetic to cases where a trusted man misbehaves unexpectedly. But, statements like ”It seemed like he had the power to propel people forward.”” and “after much discussion with her manager about Adams’s behavior, Bridgers said she accepted because it was a big opportunity before the release of her debut album.” makes me feel that you are willing to tolerate such behavior in case your expectations are fulfilled. Now, one shouldn’t put a price to their body or to their dignity.That is just like going back to the oldest profession.
I am all for institutional reform but I think it won’t fully happen if you continue to treat one party as a victim. If soliciting sexual favours is a crime then offering sexual favours should also be a crime. At times, the ‘price extracted by the industry’ may also be the ‘price offered by some women to grab the chance’.
https://m.behindwoods.com/tamil-movies-cinema-news-16/andrea-speaks-on-casting-couch.html
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Isai
February 15, 2019
@Anu:
“Some of the ‘women’ that Adams targeted were kids, for heavens’ sake!”
6 out of 7 women mentioned in the article were in the age group 20-35. The 1 underage woman whom he had met only online was 15 and had lied about being 18+. I don’t see any kid mentioned. The targeting was not done by Adams alone.It was also done by these women who wanted to use him as a stepping stone to success.
“Isai, I don’t think you understand how exploitation works.”
What you said is partly true. And that’s the problem.
You tend to respond emotionally and pass judgements quickly without substantiation/conveying any useful information.
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Madan
February 16, 2019
Isai : OK I will try one more time. The reason you hear again and again of women approaching such big names like Adams and even enduring his advances up to a point is there is no other way. Men hold the purse strings here as in most other industries. So I put the onus first and foremost on the man holding power to behave responsibly. When a man like Adams asks for a favour, it is like boss asking the same of a subordinate. It puts the latter in fix and is forced to comply. Again, you cannot stop individuals like Adams from behaving this way real time but if record labels, producers were at least prepared to listen to the women’s complaint, it wouldn’t have to go on for years.
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Arjun
February 16, 2019
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/15/opinions/ryan-adams-metoo-and-my-rock-collection-stewart/index.html
“And then there were none”. Frankly in my opinion if we really start digging, we’ll all have to give up most of our favorite music, movies, books..maybe even start rejecting science and medicine as a lot of scientists were creeps too. Thankfully the above writer stopped with rock. Wonder what she’ll think of hip hop lyrics. So go the lines of a Dr.Dre/Snoop Dogg number
https://genius.com/Dr-dre-bitches-aint-shit-lyrics
Or maybe that might get a pass as it is protest music of the underdogs.
As far as rock is concerned, those were different times. Mick Wall gave a lurid account of Led Zeppelin’s debauchery, including their orgies with their groupies, who were indeed an intrinsic part of rock and roll culture of the 60s and 70s. I’m happy that this is no longer accepted as normal behavior today, but don’t believe the men of the earlier generations can be judged by standards of the #metoo era.
On the other point, I find Isai’s line of argument appalling and think Madan’s response is spot on. “But the catch is she is not a household name and has never had those platinum selling hits and all that. So the price extracted by the industry from those women who maintain their integrity is also very high. Sure, we all have to deal with integrity vs growth trade-offs but for neither gender should the price be that of one’s body. There is a view – or at least was before MeToo – that it is normal, the done thing to extract such favours out of women if they want to be in showbiz. ” Exactly.
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Madan
February 16, 2019
Arjun: I bet the writer is either blissfully oblivious of hip hop culture or is too politically correct to discuss it cuz white supremacy. That said, I agree that whatever happened in the past happened. Hey, that still doesn’t excuse statutory crimes so if somebody can nail Plant or Page for rape, sure. But no point discussing about why they didn’t write in what would be considered a non sexist/misogynist way today. Allow me to also point out the incredible hypocrisy of journalists taking such a stance and dissecting old art from a contemporary lens. Would they like to also take a look at how journalists themselves used to write, at how they were not above slipping in subtle or not so subtle sexism into their writing back in the 70s? If they can hold the same mirror to themselves and self-introspect, then fair game, otherwise they are just hypocrites seeking sensationalism to grab eyeballs. Speaking of rock, prog rock was usually devoid of misogyny and these self-same uber-lib/Dem media outlets were at the forefront of criticising it non stop. So what did they do when art formed a non misogynist, non hateful alternative? They crushed it, that’s what.
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Isai
February 16, 2019
@Madan: I am taking a contrarian view, so please bear with me.
“The reason you hear again and again of women approaching such big names like Adams and even enduring his advances up to a point is there is no other way.”
No other way to what?? I don’t see immediate money and fame as the sole measure of success. Van Gogh, Emily Dickinson, Galileo, Bharathiyar etc. were poor and ignored during their lifetimes.
There is a difference between getting a chance to debut in a movie vs the chance to debut in a Vijay/Rajini Movie. The latter is seen as a much quicker path to popularity/success. Now, if
X such opportunities are available, then 100X people are seeking these opportunities. Vairamuthu initially approached Bharathiraja, handed him sheets of his poems and asked him to offer a chance ONLY in case he liked those poems. But the way these women seemed to have approached Adams is to assume that ‘somehow’ he will offer them a golden chance.
Putting the onus first and foremost on the power-holder is fine but to punish him ALONE will only solve half the problem. It will make men more hesitant to try such antics with women but it will also embolden desperate/greedy women to ‘offer a trade’ with the expectation that either they will get the chance or they can use this to blackmail/expose the man and get a ‘settlement’ (Like Trump and Prostitutes). If this happens, real victims, like the British singer you mentioned, will continue to get shunned while only ‘women of the NYT article’ (whom I see as Co-criminals and not victims) will get more leverage in their interactions with men like Adams.
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Madan
February 16, 2019
” I don’t see immediate money and fame as the sole measure of success. Van Gogh, Emily Dickinson, Galileo, Bharathiyar etc. were poor and ignored during their lifetimes.” – As opposed to which Ilayaraja and Rahman achieved overnight success; you are simply choosing examples of people who were not acknowledged in their lifetime as if this is the fate of all successful men in the creative field. Did IR/ARR have to sell their body to achieve it? Don’t think so. Sure there are homosexual predators too but by far gender wise this is a problem faced disproportionately by women at the hands of men.
“But the way these women seemed to have approached Adams is to assume that ‘somehow’ he will offer them a golden chance.” – So again do enlighten me where does the presumption on the part of Adams of being entitled to sexually abuse them arise from? Again, when Panju Arunachalam gave IR the break in Annakilli or Mani the break in Roja, was it in exchange for favours? No, they simply saw talent and promoted it. That is all. That is professional and I think all that the women are asking for is for the same level playing field for them. Pardon me for saying it is not too much to ask.
“. It will make men more hesitant to try such antics with women” – Which is good.
“but it will also embolden desperate/greedy women to ‘offer a trade’ with the expectation that either they will get the chance ” – This already happens. And it happens because successful men enable this culture.
“If this happens, real victims, like the British singer you mentioned, will continue to get shunned” – She was not a victim – because she said no – and I am quite sure she doesn’t see herself as one. She wound up the singer of a band where the other four members were all male, as one would expect in the 70s. So there were definitely men at the time too who resisted the impulse to prey on women. There continue to be. When the band was reassembled for live shows again in the noughties, many members had squabbled and fallen out as is typical in rock so the singer simply got in other musicians (again male) in their place. The distribution remains one female and four male and hasn’t changed in a long time.
” while only ‘women of the NYT article’ (whom I see as Co-criminals and not victims) will get more leverage in their interactions with men like Adams.” – They may but again, let me counter question this line of argument. You make it sound like the men in this case are helpless and simply unable to resist feminine charm. How long did these women – other than Mandy Moore who was his wife – know Adams? Not very long at all. Sorry but there is no confusion between lust and love when sexual interactions – whether physically or merely verbally – happen between a man and a woman in a short span of time. If he really only got honeytrapped, serves him right, I say. He got honeytrapped, if he did, only because, again, he made the assumption that it’s ok to behave this way with women and he, being Ryan Adams, is entitled to it. This is the entitlement that we have to remove. If the entitlement is removed, women hoping to extract favours through seduction will find reduced and not increased leverage.
I don’t for a minute think these problems are going to be easy to solve but I want to see the movie industry and the music industry make a serious effort to address it. That is still lacking. Only dropping big names when they find themselves accused of such things immediately in panic is not going to solve the problem and doesn’t go far beyond virtue-signalling. It’s like ABC dropping Roseanne Barr immediately after she said something racist on Twitter. Or NBC washing their hands off Megyn Kelly after she questioned what is racist about blackface on the show. That doesn’t absolve them of their very intent in cynically wanting to grab eyeballs in Trump country at any cost. If you go down that road, you should have stood by the people you signed up but if you really stood for the values you claimed to, you wouldn’t have signed them up in the first place.
Only one thing I would say though somewhat in agreement with the NYT women/British singer opposition of yours. She described this whole business of being asked for favours long before MeToo, around 2012. I remember reading it at the time. She went on to say it still happens today. Now my point again is that if the media is at all sincere about pursuing these causes, they should have flagged this at the time and investigated who are the predators in the music industry today. You could have busted R Kelly long ago in that case. They don’t; they simply wait till they find a story with enough potential for sensationalism and that is very disappointing albeit not surprising in the least.
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Isai
February 16, 2019
“you are simply choosing examples of people who were not acknowledged in their lifetime as if this is the fate of all successful men in the creative field.”
No. I had responded to your comment about there being no other way, to show that overnight fame is not the only way and it is okay for one to struggle and pursue his/her passion without compromising on values.
” Again, when Panju Arunachalam gave IR the break in Annakilli or Mani the break in Roja, was it in exchange for favours?” In these cases, the director is prone to favor the most talented since their music will elevate his film. But Ryan Adams case is like that of a female singer approaching SPB with the hope that he will use his connections to get chances for her. As I said earlier, people like Andrea do say that it is possible to succeed without compromise.
“That is professional and I think all that the women are asking for is for the same level playing field for them.” This may be true for women in general but I don’t think it is true for the women mentioned in the article. If it was true, they would have approached Ryan the way Vairamuthu approached Bharathi Raja. But sending 3000+ texts and continuing to engage with someone after seeing such problematic behavior only indicates desperation to achieve success and not a request for ‘level playing field’.
“You make it sound like the men in this case are helpless and simply unable to resist feminine charm.” No. Not at all. I repeat, Ryan Adams is not innocent and he deserves to be shamed and shunned but just like him, these women are also enablers of such culture.
“If the entitlement is removed, women hoping to extract favours through seduction will find reduced and not increased leverage.” Let us face facts. In the music industry, only few people tend to become highly successful and hence will have lot of power/influence. Removing the entitlement will not remove their power. This won’t stop some people from seeking the help of these already powerful people to “propel them forward”. When exposure leads to huge negative consequences, it disincentivizes the power-holder from initiating/participating in such behavior but it also incentivizes the ‘seeker’ because she/he gets a high leverage post-coitus since the exposure won’t affect her/him to the extent it affects the celebrity.
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Madan
February 16, 2019
The Ryan Adams of the 70s though much, much worse. The late Kim Fowley was completely unabashed as fantasizing about underage girls was the ‘done’ thing in rock back then. Shame on Joan Jett for not supporting Jackie Fox or Kari Krome. Another self proclaimed ‘feminist’ choosing to stand by her master even now that he is dead.
https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/the-lost-girls/
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Madan
February 16, 2019
” overnight fame is not the only way and it is okay for one to struggle and pursue his/her passion without compromising on values” – But it is not ok for the alternative to only be satisfying the sexual desires of powerful people.
” But Ryan Adams case is like that of a female singer approaching SPB with the hope that he will use his connections to get chances for her. ” – What is a singer supposed to do? Is there some website like naukri.com for musicians to post their resumes and wait for an interview? I wouldn’t mind that, really. Would make the process more professional.
“As I said earlier, people like Andrea do say that it is possible to succeed without compromise.” – And so did Kangana Ranaut. She used to say you would never face casting couch situation if you were truly talented. She changed her tune shortly after MeToo. A lot of women are simply afraid of outing predators and understandably so.
“But sending 3000+ texts and continuing to engage with someone after seeing such problematic behavior only indicates desperation to achieve success and not a request for ‘level playing field’.” – Again, Ava was 15 when this happened. Are you really holding her to adult standards of behaviour and based on what? And contrary to your characterisation of it, what she did, instead, was to abandon not only the thought of recording with Adams but a career in music once she realised he was only interested in her body and not in making music with her. She did the honourable thing which you have been demanding the women in the NYT article should have done. This is what Courtney Jaye also says she did. Now if you don’t want to believe her, that’s different but if you are taking the story on face value, then they have not done what you accuse them of. I repeat, two of them gave up a career in music after their rendezvous with Adams, perhaps feeling the prospect of dealing with men like him would be disgusting. That doesn’t sound like persons who were desperate to go to any lengths to secure a successful career in music, does it?
“it also incentivizes the ‘seeker’ because she/he gets a high leverage post-coitus since the exposure won’t affect her/him to the extent it affects the celebrity.” – But if the industry is professionalized and decisions are made by committee and a joint audition only, there would be little to no room left for such seekers anyway to influence decisions by offering their, ahem, wares. This is after all how male musicians land gigs anyway so there is nothing ‘boring’ or ‘uncreative’ about such a process contrary to what apologists for predators masquerading as talent scouts may claim. It is also how the aforementioned British singer landed her job. An audition keeps the process transparent and professional. I would look at anybody trying to subvert the process on a regular basis with suspicion. That’s what Adams was doing and interestingly, that was Fowley’s modus operandi too back in the 70s (except he was far more brazen about it, unburdened by the need to show himself to be a sensitive person and all that).
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Anu Warrier
February 16, 2019
@Madan, god, that was horrible! Some ‘women’s role model’ she is! (Joan Jett, I mean.)
@Isai – knowing that a man in power can advance your career and meeting him to do so does not also mean that you are willing to sleep with him to advance your career. God forbid you or yours are not in a position where saying ‘no’ is not a factor, or worse, that that ‘no’ doesn’t count.
You really, really do not understand how exploitation works.
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Madan
February 17, 2019
@Anu Warrier : Frankly I never saw the fuss about Joan Jett. She wasn’t half the singer Ann Wilson was. Yeah, she knew how to look into the camera with a rock ‘attitude’, granted. And now it turns out she is a selfish prick of a person too.
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sai16vicky
February 17, 2019
@Anu and @Madan:
“God forbid you or yours are not in a position where saying ‘no’ is not a factor, or worse, that that ‘no’ doesn’t count.”
The point is at least in this scenario, the ‘victim’ had a choice to not get into all this right? I mean this is not some tea plantation exploitation. When a common man/woman comes out on #MeToo and shares how they were exploited, I am all ears to listen to it, ready to empathize with them and stand up for them.
But when celebrities (or wannabes) do the same (which is most of the noise we have heard in media on #MeToo), I am sorry I have huge reservations. Let me take a shot at explaining why.
Firstly, celebrities thrive on fame. Once you’re not in the news, you’re totally forgotten. Naturally, this makes most artists crave attention in one way or the other. So, a rule of thumb is to take anything that they say with so many grains of salt and pepper.
I think there is a fundamental imbalance in how these accusations are handled (in the celebrities case). Imagine this scenario. X coerces Y into doing something. Y becomes all popular and successful giving in to more such coercions (and potentially ‘coercing’ others in the process). At this privileged state, Y accuses X of coercion and X’s career is immediately destroyed. But nothing happens to Y. I mean what the hell. Y had every opportunity to not give into X at all and pursue an alternate career path. Y wanted precisely this career, precisely this fame and attention. This is why Y went for it.
Which brings me to a very valid point that folks make — “people like X are making it hard for aspirants like Y to enter the industry”. But tell me this honestly — which field is fair this way? Name one field where you can get to the real top only with your merit/hard work and without being coerced by a superior authority into doing something which you wouldn’t otherwise do. Each field has its dynamics for going to the top and in the film/music industry, (regrettably) it seems to be the casting couch.
But unlike other industries, the bread and butter for film/music industry is fame and media attention. So, whatever celebrities say, I am sorry, I have huge reservations!
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Madan
February 17, 2019
“But when celebrities (or wannabes) do the same (which is most of the noise we have heard in media on #MeToo), I am sorry I have huge reservations. Let me take a shot at explaining why.” – In saying this, I think you ascribe way more power to female celebrities than they may have. A good example is tennis where many female tennis players were controlled and abused by domineering fathers. Why do you think Graf practically jumped at the chance to marry Agassi and run away to the USA? I am sure she loved/loves him but the opportunity to escape her controlling family was also too tempting to pass over. Many times we do not know the dynamics from long distance; it may seem like the women didn’t use their agency sufficiently but the reason often is they were petrified to.
And on that note, I would again like to remind you – as I did Isai – that at least two of the women who spoke up against Ryan Adams were neither celebrities nor wannabes. One of them hasn’t even been identified by name. So they were just ordinary women and their appearing in a NYT article investigating Adams’ misdemeanours doesn’t change this fact. I am at a loss to understand your (or Isai’s) hostility towards them and can only conjecture that perhaps you skimmed through the article, given the overload of articles exposing such cases. But that can’t be helped and doesn’t by itself detract from the authenticity of their complaints.
” But tell me this honestly — which field is fair this way? Name one field where you can get to the real top only with your merit/hard work and without being coerced by a superior authority into doing something which you wouldn’t otherwise do. Each field has its dynamics for going to the top and in the film/music industry, (regrettably) it seems to be the casting couch.” – I agree with everything in here except that the casting couch needs to go. No ifs, no buts. There is no legitimate reason for it to exist, not anymore than there was for Matt Lauer. As long as we remember that the casting couch is nothing but directors/producers and other powerful people in the industry exercising their power over those in a position of disadvantage (newbies, strugglers). So…
“X coerces Y into doing something. …Y had every opportunity to not give into X at all and pursue an alternate career path” – The word coercion is key. Coercion is not ok in any circumstance. Two different situations. Big time record producer tells aspiring singer that he will record her and give her the opportunity she is looking for but she MUST have sex with him. Aspiring singer left home in some midwest small town and is struggling in NYC/LA and accepts unwillingly. Not ok. Big time recorder gives aspiring singer the break. They work on a couple of albums and discover feelings for each other. They get married. Double ok. Second situation is essentially Mottola-Carey. If there is no coercion – be it direct or subtle – and we are only talking about a consensual relationship, it’s fine. But saying you can have XYZ if you give me your body is not acceptable because the person being asked to is a musician/actress, not a prostitute.
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Isai
February 17, 2019
“What is a singer supposed to do?” The singer is supposed to record her songs in a tape/disc and share these tapes with people in recording studios or online (versus approaching other singers). Ex: Adele had shared her tape with her friend who had posted it in MySpace which lead to her getting a call from the head of XL studios. Still she was doubtful so she took a friend to the meeting.
Look I am sympathetic if the celebrity calls you for an audition and then physically misbehaves with you. But when he shows his ‘sabalam’ by sending you flirty texts, I would expect you to let him know that your interest in him is restricted to music and disengage with him if he persists. But, Courtney Jaye ended in bed with him, Bridgers began a whirlwind romance, Moore MARRIED him (after him telling her that she is not a real musician) and Megan was his fiancee. Jaye was 35 and had not signed to a label when she met him and she did correspond with him many times after the bed incident. If she chose to give up music ‘that year’ and blames Ryan as the primary reason.. well I find it too convenient. I am fully sympathetic to Ava but I still can’t understand how her mother was totally oblivious to the 15yr girl sharing 3000+ texts and having phone sex with a celebrity from inside their home.
“once she realised he was only interested in her body and not in making music with her.” My question is about what the women were doing when they realized that he was interested in their body while they still believed that they would make music with him.
I share your concerns about making the music industry more transparent and welcoming of the traditionally disprivileged but that doesn’t mean that we can’t comment about the choices these women made.
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Isai
February 17, 2019
“@Isai – knowing that a man in power can advance your career and meeting him to do so does not also mean that you are willing to sleep with him to advance your career. ”
Please don’t twist my words with your emotions. What you are saying would be true if Adams had called them for an Audition and then misbehaved with them there. What happened was that he began by sending flirty texts and these women didn’t disapprove of them. (They ended up in bed or began a whirlwind romance or even married him)
Which means they were either OK with him flirting or they thought that they could “handle him” ie. get their work done without letting his misbehavior “get too far”. Such women usually don’t feel uncomfortable knowing that the other person’s interest in them is not solely due to their talent. The problem is they realize that he has gone too far only when it became clear to them that their expectations from him are not going to materialise.
Women are subjected to harassment and exploitation at various places. And Ryan Adams may be a predator. But that doesn’t mean that every woman who complains about him will be fully innocent.
While we try to make this world a better place for our daughters, we should also teach them how to navigate this world in the way it is.. Continuing to engage with someone showing problematic behavior in the hope of getting your goals achieved while “handling him” is not the correct approach IMHO.
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Madan
February 17, 2019
” Ex: Adele had shared her tape with her friend who had posted it in MySpace which lead to her getting a call from the head of XL studios. Still she was doubtful so she took a friend to the meeting.” – And while you are at it, will you please list down how many successful female pop/rock artists do you know who came up strictly this route vis a vis their male counterparts?
“Courtney Jaye ended in bed with him… Jaye was 35 and had not signed to a label when she met him and she did correspond with him many times after the bed incident.” – You actually do not know that it was MANY times.
Here is the excerpt from the article:
“Adams maintained that he still wanted to collaborate, and though the pair continued to correspond for a time, they never recorded anything.” – So it says they corresponded but with no indication of how often. So I am going to say it plainly that you inferred MANY in there so as to tilt the case in Ryan Adam’s favour. And by the way, before I get to the other cases, you have moved the yardsticks now. Here’s what you said before:
“continuing to engage with someone after seeing such problematic behavior only indicates desperation to achieve success and not a request for ‘level playing field” – To which I pointed out that two of them have had nothing to do with the music industry since and you now pretend it is just a coincidental happenstance. Even if it was, it doesn’t square with your belief that they were desperate to achieve success for had that been the case, they would have persisted, with Adams and/or other predatory influencers.
“Bridgers began a whirlwind romance, Moore MARRIED him ” – So you mean all long term relationships are hunky dory and a woman caught in an abusive one deserves no redressal? How about Neerja Bhanot? Do you blame her also for not obsessively background checking Narish before marrying him so that she could have avoided making a ‘wrong’ decision while of course he was free to abuse the f out of her since they were married?
“I am fully sympathetic to Ava but I still can’t understand how her mother was totally oblivious to the 15yr girl sharing 3000+ texts and having phone sex with a celebrity from inside their home” – So now the mother is to blame. In short, everybody has to share the blame so the load on poor Adams’ shoulders is lightened some, is that right?
“that doesn’t mean that we can’t comment about the choices these women made” – There is nothing in the behaviour of at least Ava and Courtney Jaye that suggests they even so much as led him on? Unless by leading him on, you mean if a guy absolutely forces himself on a woman and she cannot open her mouth and say no, that makes her equally culpable? Such a logic seems to assume men are completely incapable of sensing whether the other participant is at all comfortable or willing and need to be given clear instruction as if like a robot. Of course this is not the case and powerful men simply bulldoze their way through in a way that only exceptionally strong women can resist their force and put them in their place. I don’t know what you do for a living, whether you work in corporate or are a freelancer. If you are in corporate and suppose the CFO comes and screams madly at you demanding you to do something that you have a strong reason to believe is detrimental to the company’s interests, how confident are you of being able to blow the whistle on him? If you run a business and your biggest client – say accounting for 80% of your turnover – makes unreasonable demands from you which you have no interest in complying with but then threatens to terminate the relationship forthwith, would you be able to tell the client to fuck off then and there? I don’t know exactly how heroic you may be going by the demands you make of women but I can tell you what most reasonable people would do in both situations. In the first situation, they would lump it in that instance and then float their resume looking to get out ASAP. In the second situation, they would oblige this tyrant of a client but swear to develop their business so that one day they could cut him off. In essence, that is what Ava and Jaye did, the proof being that neither of them went through with any recordings with Adams in spite of him offering the same to him. In fact, they went a step further than the above examples, where others might have recorded and succeeded and THEN proceeded to tell the world what a prick Adams really was.
If you expect all women to show the same strength against men who behave despicably (that is to be able to outright tell them off) barring which you will find their choices worthy of comment, as you put it, you are not looking at it fairly at all.
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Anu Warrier
February 17, 2019
@Madan, nor me, either. But the picture that comes out of this article fills me with anger. The fact that the gang rape of one girl was considered a fun story to tell makes me want to hurl.
As for Isai and Saivicky, I don’t think you understand how power imbalances work. Or exploitation, for that matter. It’s pretty much the same as people asking why the female journalists didn’t leave their jobs when Akbar pounced on them. I doubt either Madan or I will be able to change your minds about what these women went through and why, so I won’t bother.
But I do want to address this: but I still can’t understand how her mother was totally oblivious to the 15yr girl sharing 3000+ texts and having phone sex with a celebrity from inside their home.
Do you have a teenager? Are you with them all the time? Do you know what they do on the various social media out there? Or, for that matter, do you even know when they are on those various platforms? Or what they post? You do realise that even if you are their ‘friend’ on FB or have access to their Instagram or Twitter accounts, they can still have accounts you know nothing about?
My son was pretty open with me, and I had made clear was that if he was in trouble, I wanted him to tell me. It didn’t mean that he wouldn’t face consequences, but they would be less than if I found out from someone else. I knew he would, but I wasn’t delusional enough to think I knew everything going on in his life.
I don’t know about you, but there were plenty of things my parents didn’t know I was doing when I was 15. They were filed under the ‘what they don’t know won’t hurt them’ heading. What saved me was a) I have a strong sense of self-preservation b) I wouldn’t have hurt my parents for a minute and perhaps most important, we didn’t have as many temptations and so many different ways of doing stupid things.
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Madan
February 18, 2019
“The fact that the gang rape of one girl was considered a fun story to tell makes me want to hurl.” – Indeed, it feels like some alien planet. Except it was just a decade before I was born. The Omerta-like silence about it till Jackie finally came forward is also scary and shocking.
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sai16vicky
February 18, 2019
@Anu:
“As for Isai and Saivicky, I don’t think you understand how power imbalances work. Or exploitation, for that matter. It’s pretty much the same as people asking why the female journalists didn’t leave their jobs when Akbar pounced on them. I doubt either Madan or I will be able to change your minds about what these women went through and why, so I won’t bother.”
Your statement pretty much sums up my problem with this. You have already concluded that these women went through “something”. If I were to make a similar conclusion, I would do so only if I personally knew at least one of those women who made these accusations. I am not sure what is your bar for trusting these accusations. But personally speaking, for people who have an active public life (who thrive on fame/attention), I don’t trust these accusations on face.
Now, that doesn’t mean I am saying Akbar (or any celebrity accused in #MeToo) is sacrosanct and washed in white. Definitely not. All I am trying to say is when people in public-facing industries (media/film/music) come out with such allegations, I take statements from both sides (accusers/accused) with a grain of salt.
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Isai
February 18, 2019
I usually don’t listen to Non-Indian music, so I can’t give exact numbers. But with the limited googling I did, I think for every popular female musician who had to emerge via a dirty path, there are twice the number who didn’t have to.
Of course Men don’t face so many predators but that is because most of the power-holders are Men and the percentage of gay/bisexual Men is less.
“You do not know it was MANY times”
Actually, I had used many in the sense as opposed to no communication or only once.. . replacing MANY with few or quite a few doesn’t make any difference to my argument IMO.
“You now pretend it is just a coincidental happenstance. ”
No, for Jaye, I am not saying it is a coincidence. Considering her age (35) and the fact that she was not able to sign a label till then seems to be much stronger factors than Ryan’s behavior, in her decision to quit. Even if you rank these 5 women on their degree of suffering, I don’t think Jaye comes in the top 2. So the fact that she chose to quit while 3 others didn’t tells you more about her than about Adams.
“nothing in the behaviour of at least Ava and Courtney Jaye that suggests they even so much as led him on? ” We don’t have their entire texts.. so I can’t say who led whom on.. but please explain why Ava lied about her age.
“Unless by leading him on, you mean if a guy absolutely forces himself on a woman and she cannot open her mouth and say no, that makes her equally culpable?”
This is highly exaggerated.. the article says that Jaye and Adams ended in bed but didn’t have sex..as opposed to Adams forcing himself on anyone.
” it doesn’t square with your belief that they were desperate”
Desperation is not diabetes.. they were desperate then and made bad choices.. it backfired.. now they may continue to be desperate or not (You or NYtimes are not assuring that they haven’t engaged with any predators later or they may have been unsuccessful in meeting any or as in case of Jaye, reality may have bitten them hard) Jaye may even see this article as a last-ditch effort (like Sri Reddy).. you can’t hang yourself if she gets some support and decides to restart making music.. “neither of them went through with any recordings with Adams”.. Only Jaye is saying that Adams continued to offer to collaborate and she only refused..
I think your CFO, client examples are totally inappropriate because there you have a existing critical financial dependency which is much different from someone offering a chance to record your music..
” you mean all long term relationships are hunky dory and a woman caught in an abusive one deserves no redress”
Again, the article suggests that Ryan Professionally misbehaved with them (which would be a concern for all women trying to make a career in music) but the details show that the women chose to have a personal relationship with him and he emotionally abused them (in this case Ryan is no different than any other abusive ex-boyfriend and it need not be linked to this article just because he is the same celebrity).
“If you expect all women to show the same strength against men who behave despicably (that is to be able to outright tell them off) barring which you will find their choices worthy of comment, as you put it, you are not looking at it fairly at all.”
Despicable behavior didn’t happen on Day 1. It began with flirting and the women flirted back and went on to have a personal relationship with him…the women didn’t behave professionally in the first place to accuse Adams of professional misconduct.. As far as looking at it fairly, I will repeat what I replied to Anu..
While we try to make this world a better place for our daughters, we should also teach them how to navigate this world in the way it is..
Continuing to engage with someone showing problematic behavior in the hope of getting your goals achieved while “handling him” is not the correct approach IMHO.
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Isai
February 18, 2019
@Anu:
“Do you have a teenager?.. ”
I had talked about how a 15 Yr old behaves when a CELEBRITY responds to them (which is quite rare, I suppose).. Now, if your son was interested in playing cricket and he gets in touch with a selector like say Srikanth.. wouldn’t he tell you this? Now, knowing that Ava wants to pursue music and an older Male Celebrity has responded to her, won’t you keep checking how their communication is going in?
As a Journalist, wouldn’t you have asked Ava on whether her Mother or others knew about this (considering that she was a teenager at that time).. the article doesn’t mention this because it wants to lead you to understand that Ryan is a criminal and any information that would lead to a different/broader understanding is to be avoided.
I feel the problem is you and Madan see it as a Zero Sum game and apportioning any blame to the women seems to let Adams off the hook. I see it with the perspective that just like prosecuting people has not stopped rape, this cannot be entirely eliminated. So, along with punishing people like Adams, we should also analyse the mistakes made (if any) by the victims so that other women can avoid these..
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Madan
February 18, 2019
sai16vicky: That is a reasonable stance. If you don’t find the accusations believable in the absence of evidence, that’s fair. However I would be looking at Adams actions to infer his guilt or innocence. If he’s innocent, he will confidently sue them for defamation. Heck Weinstein has. But if he doesn’t even try to fight back, I am not going to believe his feeble protestations of innocence. He opened his tweet with I am not perfect. Hold it right there. He is already giving himself an alibi in case his guilt happens to be somehow corroborated later on.
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Madan
February 18, 2019
Isai : It is not a zero sum game for sure. But what you don’t seem to understand is that putting the burden of proof on the women, while legally the correct approach, makes it difficult for them to get redressal in cases of sexual harassment as there are usually no witnesses and it’s their word against that of the accused. That is why I and Anu are pushing back against your efforts to characterise the women as unreliable accusers. One does not have to be goddess Saraswati to obtain justice in a sexual harassment case, the world is made up of people and people are flawed. The intent of the accusers doesn’t matter as long as we can establish that Adams unequivocally had bad intent. Power rests with him, therefore it is incumbent on him to exercise power responsibly. Now has his bad intent been established conclusively? No, but the ball is in his court now and up to him to resort to legal remedies if he feels he is innocent. After all, the legal system still operates on innocent until proven guilty. But if the FBI returns with an indictment, it’s already game over for him.
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Isai
February 18, 2019
“pushing back against your efforts to characterise the women as unreliable accusers.”
No. Let me again repeat. I firmly believe that Ryan is guilty of inappropriately interacting with an underage woman and should face legal consequences.
I believe when the women say that he was emotionally abusive. But, I don’t think that is sufficient grounds for legal action. (If I am wrong, I wholly welcome taking legal action against Ryan irrespective of the intent of the women) Similarly, I don’t think you can take any legal action even if you have caught someone on camera offering you a movie/music/MLA chance in return for sexual favors (Please note this is highly different in case of employment or other situations where you are currently financially dependent on their actions). So, this is not a question of a legal ‘crime’ but at best it is rather a question of Moral Turpitude. You see Ryan Adams’ immoral conduct as affecting the women in the article. I agree. But, I also see the women’s conduct as affecting other women, like say the British singer that you mentioned. That’s all.
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Madan
February 18, 2019
@Isai : The US situation is a bit more nuanced, I think. That’s probably why the label dropped Adams’ release immediately. I understand that independent contractors do not have access to remedy under EEOC but can still approach HR. Now of course this wouldn’t directly apply here as the women had no contract with the label presumably. But as a corollary, the label MAY face litigation being liable for somebody they work with.
Per se, yes, making a quid pro quo offer isn’t illegal. But this is a matter of legality and probably should be made a crime. It is already covered under workplace harrrassment so not covering it for freelance operators doesn’t make sense. Why to leave independent women more vulnerable to sexual harassment? A law will have little to no impact in India but I could totally see it being a deterrent in USA.
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Isai
February 18, 2019
Madan, if I were Ryan, I would now want the press attention to die. Considering this, as well as the poor sales that may result from the bad publicity he is currently getting, it makes good business sense to push the release of a new album. The following article gives some insight on ‘morals clause’ and on why the label may not drop him:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/legalentertainment/2019/02/14/ryan-adams-dropped-by-label-not-so-fast/#5025467e4e60
I don’t think these women can be treated as even independent contractors because.. they don’t have any contract.. as I said, without any financial dependency, anyone can make claims against anyone and hence having a law is not feasible.. That’s why I believe the best response in such cases, is to express your disinterest at the first signs of such behavior and if he persists, disengage, share this info. with your trusted peers and move on.
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Kay
February 19, 2019
Madan and Anu, excellent comments.
To add to your points, there is a pattern to the way Adams has operated.
– Approach the women pretending to like their music
– Give them hopes that he’ll launch them, provide an opening slot in his concerts, etc.
– Establish is a romantic relationship over a period of time. Make them believe he actually has feelings for them
– Exhibit controlling behaviour, become abusive and in the case of Moore making her feel worthless
This is the point where the women start feeling the don’t want to continue corresponding with him. I think by this time the damage is already done. So from what I read in that article it doesn’t seem to be a straightforward case of quid pro quo.
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Madan
February 19, 2019
Isai: Back to square one. Everyone knows what the ideal situation is. And the ideal situation would also be one in which women can collaborate freely without male musicians without worrying that the latter only see them as a means to derive sexual pleasure. While you are willing to blame Ryan Adams, you haven’t yet moved to the next step, which is take cognisance of how an environment with men of power and influence seeking to obtain sexual favours from women affects the latter. They ideally ought to discourage this kind of attention but if you really want to make a music career and find yourself having to get through male predators, be it Adams or somebody else, you would have fewer options to work with.
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Isai
February 19, 2019
@Madan:
“Everyone knows what the ideal situation is”
Unfortunately, someone close to me didn’t. She thought she could “handle him” despite my clear reservations about his behavior. Perhaps, it is my anguish and even anger towards her that fuels my comments here.
“in which wo
“take cognisance of how an environment with men of power and influence”
Take cognisance and do what?? Leave men, you can’t even convince women to watch all Sivakumar/T Rajender’s films and avoid Salman/Kamal’s films due to their moral conduct.
And I don’t subscribe to these notions:
1.”That women are innocent and only men can be predators and these type of incidents would n’t have happened if the power holders were instead dominated by women.” I believe morality is independent of gender. As and when women get used to dominating the ranks of power, such misbehavior will also be equally displayed by them.
2.” Power holders need to display a higher moral standard than power seekers’: When the source of power is purely based on their own achievements and when their power is not based on them being employers (ie independent artist < business person < government employees/politicians in terms of expectations of morality).
That is why I find it odd that while we agree on Ryan’s guilt, you are still silent on why these women approached Ryan instead of a record label, why they responded positively to his flirty texts and why they became ‘aware’ of his misbehavior only when they realised that he is not going to help them..
You may still believe that there is no other way, despite multiple ‘other’ examples. But I just find it to be a convenient excuse to justify their own conduct.
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Isai
February 19, 2019
I think the pattern mentioned by Kay could generally be true. But as per the Nytimes article, it is the women who approached Adams (when the usual path is to approach recording studios) . It is reasonable to believe that the reason they approached him was that they had hope that he would launch them. (So, am not sure how much hope he had to give)
“Make them believe he actually has feelings for them” – I have heard of many 30- Yr women ‘falling in love’ and marrying 65+ Yr men.. while most of these cases involve rich men, I have not heard of a even single such case where the man was poor.. So, considering that the women approached Ryan with hopes of advancing their career, I am less inclined to believe that they ‘fell in love’ with him than if it were the other way around. I am not saying that it can’t happen but unless we know the full details, I am less inclined to believe it.
“Exhibit controlling behaviour, become abusive and in the case of Moore making her feel worthless”
I agree with this totally. But, this was not the point where the women stopped corresponding. In fact, Moore MARRIED him after this.
So, while the pattern that Kay described could be totally true, it is also possible that it happened the way that I mentioned above. That is why this reduces to He Said, She Said.
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Srinivas R
February 19, 2019
@Madan – that story of Jackie was devastating read. I hardly listen to western music, but I am curious about you singling out Joan Jett, i mean she is as guilty as others in the room, but your comment sort of emphasized her alone. As i said, just curious.
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Madan
February 19, 2019
Srinivas R : It is because when Jackie came out with her story, Joan was quick to issue a statement denying any knowledge that something like this happened. Which could have been let to pass but she didn’t stop there. She separately lashed out at people outing Kim Fowley after his death. Smells like somebody trying to impose Omerta to me. I single her out because with her power and influence, she is in a position to, instead, help the likes of Jackie find closure. Barring that, she can at least stay out of the way rather than subtly or otherwise trying to pooh pooh Jackie. If Jackie really made all this up, then fine, I applaud Joan for speaking up. If not (and that seems to be the case given krome also attested to having been abused by Fowley), she comes across as a self centered and manipulative person to me.
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Madan
February 19, 2019
Isai: So now we finally get to the root of your confusion. You say the women approached Adams. Nope. It was Adams who dangled the carrot of a music career to Ava in their convos. It was Adams who invited Phoebe to his studio. It was Adams who reached out to Courtney with a message saying he could help her in her career. Note at first he talked about MUSIC. By and by the romantic overtures grew. You can blame the women for not disentangling from him sooner but that is not nearly the same thing as approaching him, KNOWING he would be a predator. OK if you are going to say that whenever a well known male artist makes such an overture, the women should be on their guard, that is practical advice… similar to parents telling girls to not be too late returning home. It has nothing to do with morals and speaks volumes about how depraved powerful men are if women can’t even trustingly enter a professional relationship with them. In case you are wondering, such relationships are very common between male artists in rock music where they just call up, get together and jam. Men like Ryan Adams are the biggest impediment to that kind of collaboration with female artists. You will find not many (and mostly recent) bands with a female singer among male musicians. The ranks of bands that have a woman playing guitar or keyboard along with other guys are even smaller. This is not an accident nor is it because women can’t play as the sexists like to believe. It is because it doesn’t work out either due to sexism of varying degrees (even the aforementioned British singer faced it albeit not in a severe way) or outright sexual harassment or abuse as documented in the Fowley case. Most women in rock music are independent songwriters who then hire men on their own terms. There aren’t a whole lot of them either.
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Anu Warrier
February 19, 2019
Kay, thanks for adding those very powerful points. That’s exactly how ‘grooming’ works.
Madan, thanks for keeping up the good fight.
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Isai
February 19, 2019
Madan, please read what Bridgers told about Adams last year (they had met in 2014):
In January 2018, Exclaim! spoke to Bridgers ahead of her North American tour, and at that time, she also discussed her working relationship with Adams.
Bridgers explained that she met Adams through a mutual friend who hung out at Adams’ Pax-AM Studio a lot, and that friend pushed to introduce her music to him.
According to Bridgers, Adams’ response was, “Okay, you can bring her over, but [first] send me a picture.” Her friend sent Adams a photo, which Bridgers said, “I’ve given him endless shit for.”
“I didn’t know this was happening, but I guess I passed the ‘attractiveness level test’ for him to be able to record me,” Bridgers told Exclaim! “We didn’t go over with the intention of recording, but we did end up recording the next day. I appreciate Ryan, but that was bullshit to find out later.”
As Bridgers explained, she later agreed to open for Adams on tour and eventually confronted him about the photo incident.
“We toured together and I consider him a friend, but I also did once yell at him about this and was like, ‘This is how you move through the world?'” she said. “He’s a confusing person talking about that kind of stuff. I think that overall Ryan’s a good person, I can’t even remember what he said to me, he probably babbled at me, but he definitely listened. He let me talk.”
She added, “Nobody’s one thing. We had a great time on tour last year. On women’s day he gave all the women on tour swords.”
Madan, I remember the NYT article telling that Ava followed Ryan on twitter and when he followed back, she messaged him ‘hello’ excitedly. While it does say that “The star floated big ideas about her career prospects in their earliest messages”, it is conveniently SILENT on what all Ava had communicated before the star floated those deas.
Again, for Jaye, it says that Ryan DMed her on twitter with immediate offers to collaborate but does it say that this was the first communication between them? No. If it was, the article would have definitely mentioned how Courtney was surprised to unexpectedly get such an offer.
I think Nytimes did a HIT PIECE. Ryan Adams may be a predator but the article definitely tries to sway public opinion. And remembering the 8% chance which they gave to Trump on the day of the election, I am not at all surprised.
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Isai
February 19, 2019
Bridgers met Ryan Adams in 2014 when “It seemed like he had the power to propel people forward.” and commenced a whirlwind romance. Now, Ryan was married to Mandy Moore from 2009 and they filed for divorce only in 2015. Considering that Mandy was also famous during 2014, I wonder how the female internet warriors feel about Bridgers having a whirlwind romance with a married man. And also about Jaye ending in bed with him in 2013. (I am pretty sure that if they were unaware and had asked him and he had lied, then Nytimes would have definitely mentioned it)
Mandy Moore said this a few days ago: “His controlling behavior essentially did block my ability to make new connections in the industry DURING A VERY PIVOTAL AND POTENTIALLY LUCRATIVE TIME – MY ENTIRE MID-TO-LATE 20s” Maybe I find this statement odd only because I don’t know about the workings of the western music industry.
Madan, my humble request to you. Next time, you hear such abuse stories, don’t blindly rush to offer your unconditional support and sympathies for the victims. After all,
“Epporul yaar yaar Vaai ketpinum
Apporul Meipporul Kaanpatharivu”
I rest my case.
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Madan
February 20, 2019
Isai : OK so if you start calling into question what the article itself has reported, there is nothing to discuss. And I am sorry but I don’t believe your assertions that you think Adams was wrong anymore. Especially since every time you only look for new ways to move the goal post and twist the women’s behaviour so that it makes them culpable. Every time I produce a suitable explanation, you come up with a new objection. I can see where this goes and have had enough. Have a good day.
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Isai
February 20, 2019
Madan, you had commented “You say the women approached Adams. Nope…It was Adams who invited Phoebe to his studio.” I quoted Phoebe Bridgers herself which clearly shows what you had said is factually incorrect.
“so if you start calling into question what the article itself has reported” No. I have not questioned/negated anything that the article has reported. I have only highlighted what I believe to be essential information which the article seems to have omitted. And this withheld information seems to logically point to mistakes from the women’s end.
“And I am sorry but I don’t believe your assertions that you think Adams was wrong anymore.” We agreed earlier that this is not a zero sum game. My pointing out the moral failings of the women doesn’t lower Ryan’s culpability in any way. It only strengthens my argument that these women are not truly innocent. And that has been my consistent stand and line of argument since my first comment. I repeat, it is not a zero sum game.
“Every time I produce a suitable explanation, you come up with a new objection” Your explanations, if true, would exonerate the women. However, like the Phoebe example above, it turns out to be factually incorrect.
You read the article with a pre-existing belief that women face a tough time working in rock/western music. That may be true. But, I feel that should not cloud our interpretation of the incidents mentioned in the article.
Few comments above, I had mentioned my admiration for Vairamuthu’s approach to Bharathi Raja. Now, I also believe in what Chinmayi had said about the hotel incident. Again, I will also mention Chinmayi’s moral failings in a relevant discussion, if I get to know of any. IMO, this is what trying to be truly unbiased is all about.
I am sorry if this has turned out to be a waste of your time. Ciao.
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Kay
March 1, 2019
https://www.ndtv.com/entertainment/it-dropped-like-a-bomb-emma-thompsons-letter-could-change-the-face-of-metoo-2000980?amp=1&akamai-rum=off
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MANK
April 6, 2019
Fro starting with love letters between filmmakers, this thread engeyo poyittaen.
So will link something related to the main post. My piece on Hitchcock’s Notorious.
Its a Spy thriller, its a Love story, Its a Melodrama, Its also a Menaced-Women Noir. But above all, its an exercise in pure cinema in the great Hitchcock tradition that showcases the hitherto unseen side of Star\actor Cary Grant.
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Sai Ashwin
April 7, 2019
@MANK : Lol you took the words from the mouth.
I read your article on Notorious, and its well written but its probably my one of my least favorite Hitchcock films. Its one of the films where I just didn’t give a damn what happened to the characters. I hated all of them, except maybe claude rains. It also doesn’t help that I hate Cary Grant and his one tone acting. He has the same kind of dialogue delivery in all the films I watched of him.
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MANK
April 7, 2019
Sai Ashwin , Thanks. i can see how Notorious may not be to everybody’s taste
But,But,But….. How can anybody hate Cary Grant?
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Isai
April 17, 2019
Those who wailed about a woman being made to quit music can rejoice. Now that the scandal has died and the money & publicity has been made, Courtney Jaye is back to Rock! She is doing a cameo for Matt Hopper & The Roman Candles.
http://www.redrocknews.com/news/20-news-stories/97133-matt-hopper-the-roman-candles-play-show-at-mooney-s
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Anu Warrier
April 17, 2019
But,But,But….. How can anybody hate Cary Grant?
The mind boggles at that. 🙂
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Anu Warrier
April 17, 2019
Isai, it doesn’t occur to you that because she was pushed back into the public eye, someone approached her to make music? And she took the opportunity to get back to something she loved?
And since when is a cameo a career?
Do you honestly think that a bit performance is enough to wipe out the trauma of many, many years?
SMH!
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Isai
April 18, 2019
Anu, Jaye had implied in the Nytimes article that she MAY NOT MAKE MUSIC AGAIN because “she was so traumatised by Ryan Adams” and this left some people teary-eyed.
“trauma of many, many years?”
Jaye and Ryan wound up in bed but didn’t have sex – ONCE. Which multi-year trauma are you talking about?
“she was pushed back into the public eye, someone approached her to make music? And she took the opportunity to get back to something she loved?”
Who pushed her?? When she got to know that Nytimes was doing an article on Ryan Adams’ issues, she volunteered to speak about her experiences and used hyperbole like ‘Hurricane Ryan’ and not wanting to make music again. It is these hyperbole that I had objected to then. She got more publicity and since the news has died, she is back to making music, just as I had predicted. (“Jaye may even see this article as a last-ditch effort (like Sri Reddy).. you can’t hang yourself if she gets some support and decides to restart making music”)
“And since when is a cameo a career?”
You can’t expect her to be gifted a career for her 1 night “trauma” (drama). That will happen based on her further efforts.
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Anu Warrier
April 18, 2019
I pass, Isai. Ryan is the victim and all these pathetic women only took advantage of his greatness.
/sarc
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Isai
April 18, 2019
Anu, based on your comments, I sense that you mostly see this world in black and white. Since, we know that Ryan is a bad guy, you conclude that the women must be innocent. That is why, when I give facts that show the mistakes of the women, you are neither disproving them nor changing your opinion, but instead you are wrongly concluding that I must be supporting Ryan.
I feel tired to see such patterns repeating in our discussions. You initially respond to my comments with indignation. But when my reply shows that you had either misunderstood the context or have been factually wrong, you either vanish from the thread or pretend that you are above such silly arguments.
I have already stopped responding to your comments. It would be great if you can do me a favor and kindly reciprocate. Thanks.
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Isai
April 20, 2019
This horror story, if true, details how men in power try to exploit the women working under them and behave vindictively when they are rebuffed:
https://thewire.in/women/former-supreme-court-employee-alleges-sexual-harassment-by-chief-justice-gogoi
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