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Interview: Pa Ranjith (on his life)
Posted on July 2, 2019
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Baradwaj Rangan 
brangan
July 3, 2019
The interview is up.
This is part of the #Journeys series.
Part 1 has Pa Ranjith talking about his life.
In Part 2 (next week), he talks about his cinema.
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rmahalik
July 3, 2019
BR, great!! Thoroughly enjoyed the interview. You look cool in Black Shirt 😁 Looking forward to part 2.
From my experience, whenever I moved to a new job, I give 2 months before someone asks me which caste I belong to. Till then they try different ways to find out, where I am from, dialect, tap on the shoulder, etc., but with no success. I always say I don’t follow any. Next question always would be, that is OK, what about your parents? I don’t blame them. It is ingrained and hard to escape unless you go through unlearning.
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Srinivas R
July 3, 2019
Wonderful interview and very revealing about his ideology
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praneshp
July 3, 2019
@rmahalik: What does tap on the shoulder mean?
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vinjk
July 4, 2019
@praneshp I guess he meant sly check for punool. what it called in english…sacred thread?
I have heard the same thing from a friend of mine in IISc.
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Kay
July 4, 2019
@praneshp and vinjk – I think the same happens in that Tamil movie in which Vishnu Vishal plays an aspiring cricketer (forgot the name of the movie) and one of the selectors discreetly taps his shoulder to check for the thread, in the pretext of being friendly. Vaguely remember the scene.
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Rad Mahalikudi
July 4, 2019
@vinjk: Yes.
@praneshp: tap and move the hand whether they can feel the thread!!
All are good as a person but I feel we all have become prisoners of conditioning from our birth. Impacts our decision making and choices we make in our life.
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Kay
July 4, 2019
rmahalik – you wouldn’t expect this in a corporate setup, right? Sadly, that’s not the case. I have had multiple experiences of colleagues trying to find out, directly and indirectly, which caste I belong to. My manager in the current company hired me thinking I belong to a particular caste since my name sounds something like that. The team was surprised (shocked?) to discover I was not. 😄😄
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vinjk
July 4, 2019
Brangan, that was an really really good interview. Ranjith’s politics comes from the heart or to quote Rahul Gandhi’s resignation letter ( 😛 ) from “every living cell” in his body.
My respect for him has increased many fold. I loved Kaala as a masala entertainment and he still managed to add layers of his politics into it without being preachy or showing Kaala as a saint.
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Rad Mahalikudi
July 4, 2019
@Kay: My experience is from MNCs in India.
The “Need to know” urge is very high😀
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Isai
July 4, 2019
“I have had multiple experiences of colleagues trying to find out, directly and indirectly, which caste I belong to.”
Is this behavior limited to brahmins alone? I know that they are notorious for this but I want to know how curious people from non-brahmin castes in Tamil Nadu are in finding out their colleagues’ caste. Most North Indians still use their caste surnames so, except for a few surnames like Singh etc., one’s caste gets immediately known. I am also curious whether this behavior pattern is different when tamil speaking people meet abroad. This will help in understanding HOW significant the dropping of caste surnames has been. I found the following article series about caste in America quite enlightening:
https://www.pri.org/stories/2019-03-08/us-isn-t-safe-trauma-caste-bias
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vinjk
July 4, 2019
@Rad Curiosity is a sign of intelligence, right? 😉
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Kay
July 4, 2019
Isai – I’m not sure since I have not bothered to find out the caste of the person asking me.
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Rahini David
July 4, 2019
Situations are different in small towns. What I write now in very Chennai-specific.
How I usually know:
1) I have never asked anyone about their caste.
2) A certain way in which a particular person’s caste may become quite apparent to me when their Wedding Invitation has their forefather’s name or some such marker. Only when they did not print their personal card and used their parent’s card.
3) When someone tells me that they are vegetarians, I never go beyond saying “OK”. But Brahmins almost always append the words “Because I am a Brahmin”. Please note that this is not in anyway related to me having non-vegetarian food on my plate. This is told even when I am in a Veg Cafeteria and not pressing food on them.
4) Brahmins never have a problem discussing their caste sub-divisions among themselves. It is a very common topic.
5) Other vegetarian castes mention that they are from another vegetarian caste. But they don’t spell their caste out. People who are from non-vegetarian castes but have turned to vegetarian diets just mention that it is a personal humanitarian decision and that their family is not vegetarian. They don’t mention their caste.
6) I have never heard anyone identify as Dalit in 15 years of MNC experience. In some cases, I may know because of Ambedkar-related status messages and assume this to be so.
7) Caste is sometimes discussed when a parent is opposing a love-match. Or when someone explains why they decided to elope etc.
8) Some people discuss their caste indirectly when functions like Kaathukuthal happen. Statements like “But it thought your community always went for ___ practices during ___ functions” are made. I never ascertain which community they are talking about.
9) When someone discusses reservation.
Am I ever asked:
Almost never. Two men guessed it right and attributed it to just my face. Both men were of my community (they said so). Both were acquaintances.
Hope this helps.
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Isai
July 4, 2019
Kay, you seem to have misunderstood my comment. Perhaps I was not clear.
That comment was/is addressed to all readers. I was not asking about the caste of the colleagues. I am asking if readers of this blog have experienced this ‘curiosity of their NEW colleagues to know their caste’, in TN, from colleagues who are not brahmins. Caste may get mentioned in a conversation with a friend while discussing about family traditions etc. But, when someone whom you have recently met is trying to know your caste, it could either be that they feel a strong affinity to their caste and hence want to know if you belong to their group or they perceive/judge people based on caste hierarchy and want to know where you stand in relation to them. I wanted to know how prevalent this tendency/curiosity is, especially amongst non-brahmin castes, to understand if stopping the usage of caste surnames has helped us become less caste conscious. My North Indian friends don’t agree with me on this and Tamil nationalists have started saying that the prevention of caste surname usage has only resulted in us not knowing who are the native speakers of tamil. Hence, the question.
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Isai
July 4, 2019
Thanks a lot for the detailed reply, Rahini. From your reply, I get that at least in your experience, there was no ‘judging you based on the caste hierarchy.’
“I have never heard anyone identify as Dalit in 15 years of MNC experience.”
Hmm..Ranjith made an interesting point about how being able to live by suppressing their caste identity has actually hampered dalits (in comparison to African Americans).
“Two men guessed it right and attributed it to just my face. Both men were of my community (they said so).”
When I read this, I was quite surprised. So, I zoomed into your profile pic and suddenly realised that your ‘face-cut’ does resemble a lot with my school teacher. If I remember correctly, she was from Tirunelveli/Thoothukudi districts. Any chance you have roots over there?
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hari
July 4, 2019
It is interesting that when ever there is a discussion of caste comes into picture the discussion almost always focuses on Brahmins. As if they are the only perpetrators of casteism in TN. If that is the case then TN will be around 97% caste free. But that is not definitely the case and almost everyone knows it.
You can see many Brahmins calling out casteism followed in their households and they have vehemently opposed it. But have you seen a vanniyar calling out casteism perpetrated by their community among the oppressed castes? You will see such articles very very few. Same goes with all the majority castes in majority villages in TN.
TN will be bereft of casteism if the whole TN accepts that browbeating brahmins for casteism is not going to help the cause. If that is the case it should have seen significant improvement so far on that front. But listening to Pa Ranjith one would have understood that it is not.
The whole elections are fought on caste lines. What are we talking about then?
Also one should understand that there is a thin line in understanding about ones community and ones caste. There is a lot of culture and traditions associated with ones community and it is an interesting area to explore. Finding casteism in each and every instance actually renders major disservice to the fight against casteism IMHO.
And Isai, frankly coming from Tirunelveli, I can safely say that letting go of “surnames” has absolutely not done much for reducing caste consciousness. Probably “Statistics” might prove me wrong, but that is “anecdotal” opinion.
Coming to this interview I found Pa Ranjith’s punch dialogue “unmaya pesina naan en bayappadanum” very interesting when juxtaposing with “there is politics in everything”.
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Kay
July 4, 2019
Isai – I was at work and couldn’t type in details. I got the meaning of your message. What I meant is – and talking from personal experience – while I have been able to sometimes identify Brahmins by the way they talk or food preferences like how Rahini mentioned, I have not been able to decipher others. So not sure if others are also curious. Half the time I’m not interested and so unless someone tells me directly I don’t take the efforts to find out. I assume both brahmins and non brahmins are curious. One point which I agree with Rahini is that I have never had a Dalit identifying themselves so. Also, even if we are not interested sometimes we end up knowing the caste of a person by the way they talk or some rituals that they talk about. Also, when I say I’m from Coimbatore or that my in laws are from Pudukottai, people have asked if I’m belong to this caste or that.. things like that.
Most of the times I think people ask out of curiosity and not with a malicious intent. Like another commenter said, caste has been a part of our lives from the time we are born, we get enrolled to school, apply for govt jobs, etc. that it’s difficult to consciously avoid it. However, I read the article that you posted, and I really don’t understand how someone living abroad can get discriminated unless they openly talk about it or affiliate themselves to a caste based organisation. I’m not saying they are lying. Just genuinely confused.
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shaviswa
July 4, 2019
I happened to read this one just today. A very interesting take on caste and how it affects people who go for higher education especially if they do not belong to the upper castes.
https://livewire.thewire.in/campus/i-am-tam-but-not-brahm-my-dalit-experience-at-bits-pilani/
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Eswar
July 5, 2019
Hari: I broadly agree when you say: that when ever there is a discussion of caste comes into picture the discussion almost always focuses on Brahmins. . But when you say But have you seen a vanniyar calling out casteism I wonder how to identify a Vanniyar? I am sure if I have been a field worker, interacting with them closely, I might have learnt some cues. In the absence of that, what markers would I use to identify the caste of the person calling out against casteism?
I also agree that exploring the culture and tradition associated with a community can be interesting, but again what is the difference between a community and a caste in this context.
These are genuine questions I have, and my apologies in advance if they sound insensitive.
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brangan
July 5, 2019
shawiswa: That, IMO, is inevitable because the Indian system is not like the US public school system, where we get free quality education. So class automatically becomes a factor — i.e. only those who can “afford” a good school or college can go there.
But that said, in my years at BITS, I have seen many, many Tams who were not Brahms. And I have never once seen anyone ask “what is your caste” or some such thing. In fact, I would say I opened up a lot after going there, because of the exposure to boys from the southern parts of TN. (Today’s Chennai kids don’t have that problem, because the Internet and engagement on social media have already opened them out.)
But that said, my individual experience cannot be a generalisation, just like this article writer’s experience cannot.
But yes, the “shutting out entire communities because there is no reservation” point and the “ignorance” point is a valid one — and how to address it is the big issue.
A friend of mine (not a Tamilian) recently admitted his young daughter into PSBB. Which means 12 years of hanging around with a similar class of people with very little exposure to the world outside. How to crack this, while still aspiring to a certain “quality” of education that is sadly not available in government schools? That is a big question.
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vinjk
July 5, 2019
As a non-Tamizhan, as a non-Hindu, there seems to be some problem in TN. I too find this constant Brahmin bashing, whenever caste is discussed, a bit disconcerting. Sure, they might be the biggest beneficiaries of the caste system, they represent the zenith of this system but still…
They are not the only perpetrators of this evil, at all levels casteist have been and still is tormenting and ridiculing people belonging to castes below them. If it’s not caste, then they will find something else to others on the head with (maybe it is money or power…).
I hope we can steer this discussion towards what Ranjith said in the interview or about his movies.
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shaviswa
July 5, 2019
Not sure if RTE is implemented at Madras. That should ensure different classes of people being represented even at schools like PSBB.
Navodaya schools may have helped bridge this gap but thanks to myopic state government policies we do not have that option either.
I understand your point of view though. I went through a very similar experience when I went to Kanpur. In fact I was not even aware that you have to address even slightly elder people as neenga-vaanga.
There was once an incident where a guy from Southern TN was speaking about getting what would happen if and when he gets married. I said something like “Ava kitta ippadi solla mudiyuma…”. This guy got offended and asked me how can I refer to his (hypothetical) wife as ava-iva.
Huge learning that.
Kanpur was where I met people from different groups and strata of Tamil people. From the staunch DK types to the staunch devout and orthodox. 🙂
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Thupparivaalan
July 5, 2019
Thupparivaalan: Very nice interview. Another tough question I would have liked to ask him is if he believes the present reservation or quota system is capable to restoring the damage done by practice of caste. Cause, if caste has to be abolished it need to happen bottom up through a change of culture, as top-down imposition can only achieve so much, and even in some cases reinforce the same. Also, I’m interested to know what he thinks about the benefits of urbanisation. It’s tough to practice caste in Chennai, than in a rural setting. Ofcourse I’m not denying the fact that People in Chennai might face caste discrimination, I’m sure it isn’t as horrible as in rural areas.
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brangan
July 5, 2019
Thupparivaalan: He speaks about that, no? He says CLASS is more obvious in cities and the CASTE thing is more obvious in the rural areas.
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Thupparivaalan
July 5, 2019
Thupparivaalan: RTE is a disaster in most schools, and I don’t know of a single act that has done worse to our education system. It has made running schools exorbitantly costly, and made the already weak system weaker. I can’t think of a single act that sabotaged the schooling system in India like RTE did.
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Thupparivaalan
July 5, 2019
BR: Ofcourse, he does. What I’m interested in knowing is if he thinks class divides are better compared to caste division, as class division is inherently less discriminatory. Sorry, I should have made that clear.
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brangan
July 5, 2019
While the comments have been mostly good for this interview, a few have referred to the fact that I was “out of my depth”.
The point is that I never approached Ranjith as an equal. My reason for doing this interview was more to get a perspective on what makes this man tick. So the way I approached this was as a Ranjith 101, so to speak. And I felt there would be others who are curious about this, as well.
Did that come through?
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Rahini David
July 5, 2019
I am not sure if my comment came across as Brahmin bashing. The question was about curiosity and how I usually come to know of a colleague’s caste.
The simple answer is that Brahmins usually expressly tell me so, including whether they are Iyer or Iyengar. Usually over lunch.
Even more details about gotra is discussed when there are many Brahmin lunchmates.
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Tin
July 5, 2019
Ranjith is right in SO many aspects. I schooled in a ‘prestigious’ school in Chennai till 10th. Only after moving to another for 11th and 12th did I even know other castes existed. Imagine my shock when gayatri japam was not something everyone bothered about 😂
As I ventured out, I learnt more and I would say developed a more ‘inclusive’ mentality. Till then, I was never ‘averse’ to anything – but I can understand how my passive mentality could have been regressive.
Rahini, great point! Sometimes, I ask if people ‘follow’ some festivals, like say Krishna Jayanthi – just so that I can ask them for savouries. I am now thinking how even that is rather insensitive.
Also, I have a problem with someone eating meat alongside me. Even egg. When I was young, I was made to eat raw eggs and I just can’t stand the smell, even in souffles. And I really can’t take the smell of anything not vegetarian. I try to avoid sitting at the same table where meat is eaten, even though I live outside of India. But I have many times, listening to Pa Ranjith talk about beef, thought about how regressive my behaviour is. But physiologically, I just can’t – especially for some rather strong stuff like shrimp noodles.
And mind you, the same thing happens to me. My Paneer is viewed as curry and strong smelling in my broadly non-Indian office. While that irks me somewhere, I don’t find it offensive. How do other people on the forum deal with this? I don’t have a problem with beef eaters. Only strong smelling cooked beef in front of me. What does that make me? And how can I be more sensitive?
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Tina
July 5, 2019
Sir, from what I see in the interview, you look a bit more guarded than usual. Other than that – why black shirt and even more importantly black FC mug? Aren’t those yellow and black?
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brangan
July 5, 2019
FC mug is chocolate brown and yellow 🙂
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vinjk
July 5, 2019
@BR About your interviewing, yes it does come across as you were trying to understand the director and what has been life experience.
The only point I, sort of, cringed was somewhere early in the interview when Ranjith said “one experience caste system in our daily life like when someone gives you water…” (something like that), you asked him “what was the incident with the water?”. In my mind, everyone knows what the incident might have been, (either the person refused to give, or will give in a separate glass or…). So asking to elaborate on it meant either to relive the humiliation or to generate some shock (as to how mean ppl can be).
It’s not a serious issue…i just felt that at that moment.
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hari
July 5, 2019
Eswarji, thanks for the response.
For your 1st question, I’m not asking a non-vanniyar to bash Vanniyar for casteism, so question of identifying one does not arise here IMHO. I’m asking how many vanniyars/chettiars/gounders/thevars have come out and openly talk about casteism followed in their households. Hope this answers your question.
For the 2nd question, as I mentioned there is a thin line differentiating the two. And I’m not so eloquent enough to write a long answer here mostly because it will be very easy for others to label me as a casteist.
This is what I understand by what Rahini said “Both men were of my community (they said so).”, (sorry about taking her name even though she is not involved in our discussion, and I’m not quoting her in a negative sense but in a positive sense), it shows a sign of oneness, trying to make a connect with her, trying to start a topic, finding about where she is from and seeing is there a family connection some where, etc etc. Which I feel is a good thing, an ice breaker sorts off. Not discriminatory. One can take it as intrusion and definitely let the others know. And ofcourse if it is used for discrimination I’m all against it. HTH.
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vinjk
July 5, 2019
@Tin
My exposure to caste was when I joined college. Till then, my knowledge of caste and poverty and class were all theoretical.
“What does that make me? And how can I be more sensitive?”
Well, that makes you a bit of pain in the ass 😀
Almost all my colleagues are either Chinese or Japanese. They may have a problem with the smell or appearance of indian curry or that I, at times, eat using my hands. Sometimes they couch their disgust with some overly (beyond normal) polite comment about “I love indian food”…” i love how you deftly you use your hand”…
All I have for them is a curry-dripping middle finger salute!
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Daisy
July 5, 2019
Thuppavarivalan: Regarding your comment about it is not easy to practice caste in Chennai- Even till date in a metropolitan city like Chennai, a lot of Brahmin households do not let non-Brahmins inside their kitchen. If that is not practicing caste, what is?
I am a non- Brahmin married to a Brahmin and both financially and in terms of education was better off than my husband and I had to endure stuff like being invited to virundhu for newly weds at a hotel because I couldn’t be invited to someone’s home and be served food in their kitchen. My FIL was not keen on printing a traditional Manjal Pathirikai invitation because you have to name your father/grandfather and their names would have made it clear that I was not a Brahmin.
The irony of all this is my grandmother in my ancestral village down south discriminates people from who are in the lowermost strata. My humiliation post wedding is nothing compared to what Dalits have to had to endure/overcome/still endure. It was eye opening to me what discrimination can feel like. A Dalit friend who is a doctor and was practicing down south, quit her government job due to the discrimination she was facing from subordinates. I don’t know if we ever would be able to get out of the mess this caste system has created
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hari
July 5, 2019
shvishwa “Not sure if RTE is implemented at Madras. That should ensure different classes of people being represented even at schools like PSBB.” the school I studied in is currently struggling with RTE. Almost all the seats through RTE gets filled by “recommendations from local corporators”.
Thupparivalan “It’s tough to practice caste in Chennai, than in a rural setting. “, hmm, when my father was building our house after much struggles in getting a “high interest” loan, our neighbor went to local EB office and gave them a letter not to give connection to our house, just because we are Brahmins. That too without even knowing each other, just on the fact that we are of certain caste. The laughable fact is he was a “rationalist”. A cousin of mine who was on the way to become a tehsildar had to resign because of severe depression he faced, because of his colleagues who used to harass him. There are various instances in my family who have faced casteism in Chennai. So it does exist.
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bnmm
July 5, 2019
fwiw, in all my time growing up in chennai, studying in a very mined college and working at an MNC with a very diverse crowd, I’ve never been asked about my caste, nor has it been discussed as a topic in my lunch conversations. But then I tune out when people discuss festivals, home intricacies etc., so may have flown over my head.
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Eswar
July 5, 2019
Hari Ji Thanks for explaining. I see what you mean.
In my view caste is not going to go away for another few generations. But obviously there is a problem with the way we associate with it. Which means the only way to deal with caste is to talk about it and importantly listen to it by consciously setting aside our prejudices.
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shaviswa
July 5, 2019
@hari: “gave them a letter not to give connection to our house, just because we are Brahmins”
I dont understand this. How can someone be denied electricity connection based on their caste?
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Anu Warrier
July 5, 2019
Sometimes they couch their disgust with some overly (beyond normal) polite comment about “I love indian food”…” i love how you deftly you use your hand”…
All I have for them is a curry-dripping middle finger salute!
I’m curious. You don’t think that they genuinely like Indian food or that they are rather amazed at the way we use our hands? This is a genuine question, by the way. Because I’ve had those comments from my colleagues and they have come home to partake heartily of what they now term ‘authentic’ Indian food. A few of them also try to eat with their hands, to much hilarity and good-natured teasing from the others.
I’m not negating your lived experience, but when I admire my Chinese colleague for the adroit way they use their chopsticks while I still fumble with them, it’s not because I’m masking my disgust at their food/way they eat. Or when I say I can’t eat Chinese food (when someone asks me), it’s not because I think it’s disgusting, but because I’m vegetarian and there are very few vegetarian options in Chinese restaurants. Those that are there also use fish stock as their cooking base.
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vinjk
July 5, 2019
@Anu
Yea… initially i used to think they are genuine in their comments. But through some of younger colleagues I have come to know they find this use of hand and smell of curry nauseating and “uncivilised”. Anyway…
This is not to say there are no Chinese who like Indian food or our practices. Or that it is only them that show this kind of dislike to other cuisines. There are plenty (plenty!) of Indians who say pretty much the same thing about other cuisines. I’m not sure whether they make patronising statements while hating those food/practices.
I said it only in the context of the comment I was replying to.
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Madan
July 6, 2019
vinjk: Once when I was in Niagara, US, with my parents, looking for a place to eat dinner, I saw a group of Indian tourists headed our way. I saw an eatery from the distance and asked my parents to wait while I went up to the entrance to check out what it was. It was a pizza joint cum grill and bar. The group had seen me checking out this place and one of them asked me what it was. I just said the word pizza and he exclaimed with a look of disgust, “No, no, no pizza. ” I was like, “Man, I am just telling you what they serve, not asking you to eat it.” The next day, we ate at the same place that the guy had recoiled at without even trying and it was great. I don’t know what for those guys bother to go around touristing in foreign lands if they feel as pure as Vaishno Devi. As if people don’t eat pizzas here.
Would these tourists have said something like this to a white American? Doubt it. But that would be more because they likely fear the white man. We have seen earlier that in contexts where they don’t have to fear whites, like Shivraj Singh Chouhan’s infamous MP roads remark in Washington DC, there are Indians who may not hesitate to insult other cultures. As far as the Chinese go, the slur Chinki used up North says it all.
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Eswar
July 6, 2019
Fantastic interview BR. You had great questions. The one about artist vs activist and the way you turned it around and asked again was very interesting.
I share similar views with Ranjit on some of the things he talked about. That discrimination manifests itself in different ways in different societies and it modernises itself when societies modernise. That is why I believe caste is unlikely to go away and even if we root out caste, something else will take its place doing exactly what caste does now. The best way to deal with caste is not to shut it down or label people who are talking about it but in understanding where they come from. Hari, who commented earlier in the thread, mentioned that, he elaborating his view on his caste could be construed as casteism. Such an environment would not help to deal with caste.
There is obviously a conflict of interest when a person has to talk about the concerns of his own group. But when no body else wants to talk about that group, then eventually someone from that group will start speaking for themselves. And when they do that, they are labelled as an activist of that group, rather than an activist addressing a general social malaise. This is probably why we see Ranjit as a Dalit activist and as he himself pointed out Ambedkar as a Dalit leader. This can be observed in other areas, like the left and the right of the political spectrum, in women activism and in LGBT rights where the general public failed to represent, talk about the issues of the affected groups. Right to sexual orientation is everyone’s right but it was ignored long enough resulting in LGBTs having to fight it out for themselves. Ranjit’s Dalit Cinema follows the same path. If the anti-Brahmin stance continues long enough in Tamil Nadu and Tamil cinema, then there will be a day where a Brahmin will be sitting in Ranjit’s seat talking about the issues Brahmins face and how they have been misrepresented in Tamil cinema and Tamil society. And the cycle will continue with another caste – Nadars, for example.
Only very recently I came to know about the discrimination of Nadars by Nairs in Kerala. Then, Nadar women were not allowed to cover their bosom. Nadars were discriminated in southern Tamil Nadu as well. This history surprised me because a non-Dalit community is being discriminated by a non-Brahmin community. The Kalugumalai and Sivakasi riots of 1895 and 1899 were between Nadars and Maravars. When caste discrimination is/was practiced by other non-Brahmin caste groups then why is the discussion about casteism more often boils down to Brahmins?
Narendra Subramanian in his book Ethnicity and Populist Mobilization: Political Parties, Citizens, and Democracy in South India notes some interesting observations about Tamil Nadu:
– It is Jatis that was in practice in Tamil Nadu, not Varnas. Jatis are more fluid than Varna’s which is a strict group based on scriptures.
– Before colonisation, non-Brahmin communities in TN have enjoyed a high social status along with Brahmins and even higher status is some areas
– During colonisation, the colonisers ignored the fluid Jati system in TN and followed the strict hierarchies of scriptures
– The new scripture based hierarchy placed a good number of castes, who enjoyed high social status, three levels below Brahmins as Shudras.
– In addition to this, the education Brahmins had acquired helped them to occupy key positions in the society
– The movement against Brahmins is in a way a movement by non-Brahmins against losing their social and political status.
It is in this background the justice party was formed which paved way to Periyar movement. Periyar reinterpreted the epics and questioned the Varna system in scriptures. He probably equated scriptures to Hinduism and Hinduism to Brahmins. The Periyar movement’s fight against Varna system turned into a fight against Brahmins. But the background in
which the Justice party was formed raises some questions about Periyar movement. Was Periyar against casteism in general or was he just fighting for Shudras against Brahmins? Because, his views on Adi-Dravidars appears to be ambiguous. Importantly how critical was he against the discriminatory practices of his own group, the Shudras?
When Periyar movement became a political movement with Dravidian parties, it’s main support base came from the middle castes i.e non-Brahmin and non-Dalits. This probably refrained the Dravidian parties form questioning their own clientele on casteism in the fear of losing cadre support. Rather they continued equating caste discrimination with Brahminical practices keeping up with the past discourse. This prolonged political discourse, in my view, has created a certain simplistic view about casteism in TN. This is probably why a discussion around caste discrimination always boils down to focussing on Brahmins as pointed out by Hari and Vinjk. I am not implying Brahmins had no role in TN’s caste discriminatory practices, but it is not just Brahmins. If one tries to understand the caste politics and practices of TN, it will be very obvious that there are more players to it. Even Scheduled Caste communities have caste hierarchy among their caste groups and discriminate against Scheduled Tribes. That is why it is important to talk about caste and understand it’s deep roots. If people who are genuinely concerned don’t talk about caste, then people with vested interests will start painting their own picture. I hope Pa.Ranjit has a genuine concern and maintains his integrity throughout his fight against Casteism.
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Anu Warrier
July 6, 2019
@vinjk, interesting. As I said before, I’m not negating your experience, I haven’t faced it myself. That’s all.
But as Madan says, we aren’t very backward when it comes to ethnic slurs. And we don’t even have to go out of India to see it. SIES in Bombay was called ‘Sambar Idli Eating Society’, for instance.
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Madan
July 6, 2019
“SIES in Bombay was called ‘Sambar Idli Eating Society’, for instance.” – Ha! I don’t particularly remember that one as an SIES-an. However, we ourselves used to joke about the “SIES is a temple of learning” plaque on the entrance. Sort of saying that the line summed up the all work and no play funda of SIES (I was at the one behind Roopam Theater – now Cineplanet, not the one close to Gurukripa). I don’t mind Idli Sambar jokes that much. What I do object to is Maharashtrians and North Indians saying Enda Gondu if I talk to somebody in Tamil on the phone. Yeah, right, as if your language is so beautiful, moron. Oh well, developed a thick skin for those and other inane and dumb insults after living so many years in Mumbai.
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Thupparivaalan
July 6, 2019
Daisy: I’m sorry you had to endure such an experience. The one key differentiator in caste practice with urban and rural setting is the private vs public property divide. caste discrimination when we try to get a house, is possible because the property is private and the owner has the liberty to do so. But, in public property in the cities such as trains, roads, etc you can’t practice caste as you won’t know what caste your fellow person is. Whereas in villages they have separate roads, separate houses, separate hotels, etc. That’s sort of public humiliation and discrimination is not possible in Chennai is what my point was. Add to that the practice of separate festivals, and temples for both. I can’t think of a specific upper caste temple in Chennai, whereas in every other village they have temple for the upper caste ones and another for the lower caste ones. Even while hiring and firing people, recruiters in cities don’t ask for the caste which is not the case rurally. Ofcourse there might be exceptions to this, but I feel the general trend of overt caste expression in rural areas is absent in cities. It is much more subdued, and we can argue if that’s a bad thing or vice verca.
Hari: Lol at the guy who tried to go to the EB office. The general hate festered by the supposedly rationalist Dravidian parties against the Brahmins is sad. That too when it was spearheaded by a man who married 3 women and had 2 wives at the same time, you wonder where the rationalism and self respect went out. More so when you consider their hypocrisy in singling out the brahmins as the sole practitioners of the caste system. It is classic politics, demonising one section of the community.
I have always been curious why brahmins are more comfortable in revealing their caste identity than other castes. I might be wrong, but I have seen that personally and also, in popular culture. For instance, a lot of stand up comics are able to assert the fact that their are tambrahm, in a positive way without coming across as casteist. if another guy from another community says, I’m from this community implicitly or explicitly it is easy for people to put a label on them, unlike the brahmins. And also I’m interested to find out why that is the case with brahmins and not the other upper castes in Tamil Nadu. Is it because of the fact that they have been endlessly ridiculed in movies and other popular culture so they have become more comfortable in their own identity, or is it because they also have a very strong presence in the performative arts such as singing, dancing, movies, etc?
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brangan
July 6, 2019
Eswar: That was a fantastic comment. Why don’t you write something along these lines for a Reader’s Write In?
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Madan
July 6, 2019
” Is it because of the fact that they have been endlessly ridiculed in movies and other popular culture so they have become more comfortable in their own identity, or is it because they also have a very strong presence in the performative arts such as singing, dancing, movies, etc?” – I don’t think it’s just the ridicule. Because, for instance, Brahmins aren’t subjected to anti-rhetoric in Maharashtra and I have still found Maharashtrian Brahmins to be assertive of their Brahmin identity. I also dispute the notion that it is only they who do it. I cited this example elsewhere, but during his tussle with the Infosys board, Vishal Sikka actually said he was a Kshatriya warrior so he would keep fighting. That was so cringe worthy and coming from a man who had worked abroad (but still not learnt to shed his caste pride). Maybe other castes not asserting their identity is a Tamil thing because I don’t find it to be the case outside (except lower castes which are made to feel defensive/shameful of their identity).
Somebody said not mentioning the family name is useless anyway but I beg to differ as it does make deciphering somebody’s caste harder. In Maharashtra, UP, Gujarat, etc you wouldn’t even have to guess. You know just from the surname what caste the person is. As a TamBram who grew up in Mumbai, I was forced to add Iyengar as my surname which neither I nor my parents wanted. My father’s name is Mohan and I was named Madan so that my name would be Madan Mohan (after the music director) and Maharashtra education system totally ruined it! 😛 But I digress. Tell me how can you get rid of caste consciousness if it’s there in the name itself. The only difference is nobody has to thuruvi thuruvi ask in states like Maharashtra because they know what caste you are from the name. In urban Maha, there is less overt discrimination between castes but that is the legacy of Ambedkar. We saw what the enforcement of prevention of atrocities against SC/ST act did. Led to a Maratha agitation against the enforcement of it and in response the Dalits agitated in Mumbai, calling for it to be enforced. Whither casteless society? Not in the next 100 years perhaps? The overt symbols of caste may be gone in urban areas making it harder to practice, but caste pride lives on. Had an interesting discussion elsewhere where we wondered if the institution of arranged marriage did not in fact help to keep caste boundaries intact.
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shaviswa
July 6, 2019
@Madan – one comment by NIs that I absolutely detest is when they say “Ennaa Rascala….” and then laugh uncontrollably as if they cracked the joke of the century.
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sachita
July 7, 2019
Periyarist movement had its reasons at the time. Looks like, British colonialism wanted to have 2% dominating the rest everywhere they went. So in TN, top british govt posts were occupied by brahmins. In Srilanka, apparently the Tamils had enjoyed similar privelleged positions – textbook divide and rule.
Quite ironical for TN dravidian politics.
Most people just parrot what periyar had mouthed then for all these years. So, media then/online narrative now is only around brahmin/non brahmin. It doesnt address other layers and layers of casteisms. Ground reality had all kinds of caste fights, discrimation where even school going child is denied water/punished for drinking water.
Even Kamal comfortably did thevar magan for all his anti casteism. He apparently refused Shankar’s gentleman citing caste.
The same people who rejoiced at breaking of brahmin hegemony(rightly so) and supported reservation, are the ones who are saying there is no caste when Ranjith brings about caste atrocities. And say dalits who talk about equality need to give up reservation. How do they not get the irony in that?
Ranjith’s words and cinema are definitely eye opening. I am also glad his thought process is truly rational.
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Thupparivaalan
July 7, 2019
Madan: Ofcourse, I might be very wrong as my social interactions outside work has been very limited for the last few years. Unfortunately Solid data is not available for such issues, so analysing them would always involve personal anecdotes. A lot of educated tend to hold on to such beliefs like you said and we can’t do much about it other than throw up in disgust. For caste to get away, we need a bottom up change in our culture, that will take quite some time like you said.
Regarding the surnames in North India: It is frustrating when anyone asks for you surname outside Tamil Nadu. And something very good from the periyar movement is the fact that we tamilians have shed our caste, atleast in our names.
One small nitpick I have with the implementation of SC/ST atrocities act is the fact that we can imprison people for their words. In country where free speech is only paid lip service, the act has been used by people to create false allegations and imprison people. Add to the fact that if proper rule of law is enforced then there won’t even be a need for most provisions of SC/ST atrocities act as a lot of what it enforces is already covered in other areas of the constitution.
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Arjun
July 7, 2019
Fantastic interview. Great point Ranjith makes about how being able to get on by hiding their identity has actually hampered the Dalit movement and the contrasting example of the African-American experience. In Tamil Nadu, Ilayaraja is a good example of the former kind who constantly strives to obfuscate his origins.
I’ve said before that Kamal Hasan is disliked by a lot of periyarists or at least looked upon with rightful suspicion. This “letter to Kamal Hasan” below written by Maari Selvaraj (director of Pariyerum perumal which was also Ranjith’s own production ) 4 years ago and which went viral after the movie release gives some context about the sort of caste supremacism that this movie revived in south tamil nadu, told through the eyes of a young dalit boy (Maari). I also believe Ilayaraja scoring for Thevar magan and especiallly that potri padadi penne song is the lowest point of his career.
I hope you asked him about Kamal Hasan and Thevar Magan in part 2, uncomfortable though his answers may be for you. Or maybe Pa Ranjith may choose to be more diplomatic than his protege…
https://tamil.asianetnews.com/politics/director-mari-selvaraj-writes-a-letter-to-kamal-hassan-pgl20m
The whole article is definitely worth a read. Copy-pasting some parts below:
“முற்போக்குவாதி ,பூனூல் துறந்த பிராமணன் , பெரியாரின் கொள்கையை கடைபிடிப்பவர் என்றெல்லாம் சொல்லிகொள்ளும் நீங்கள் பல பிரிவு மக்கள் பல அடுக்கு சாதி கூறுகளுடன் வாழும் நம் நாட்டில் ஒரு சாதி மக்களின் வாழ்க்கை முறையை , அவங்க அரிவாள் பிடித்த முறையை ,அவர்கள் அரிசனனுக்கு சந்தோசமாய் கூழ் ஊத்திய முறையை , மீசை முறுக்கி வளர்த்த முறையை , சாராயம் குடித்த முறையை , சக மனிதனின் சங்கறுத்த முறையை காட்டுகிறேன் என்று “தேவர் மகன் “என்ற தலைபோடு ஒரு திரைப்படம் எடுத்தது ஏன்?
அது எப்படி “போற்றிப் பாடடி பெண்ணே தேவர் காலடி மண்ணே” இதன் விளைவையும் வலியையும் இன்றுவரை நீங்கள் உணர்ந்ததுண்டா…சொல்கிறேன் கேளுங்கள் ஒருவேளை நீங்கள் அசட்டுபோதையில் இருந்தாலும் குறித்து வைத்துக்கொள்ளுங்கள் …
• ஆறாம் வகுப்பு மாணவர்கள் கூட பள்ளிகளில் அடித்துக்கொண்டார்கள்,
• திருமண சடங்கு விசேச வீடுகளில் ஏன் கோவில்களில் கூட உங்களின் முற்போக்கு பாடல் ஒலித்து கிராமங்களின் ஒற்றுமையை ஆடவைத்தது.
• வெள்ளரிக்காய் விற்கும் வயதான மூதாட்டிக்கூட வலுகட்டாயமாக பாட வைக்கபட்டாள்.
….”
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Honest Raj
July 7, 2019
@Eswar: The discrimination against Nadars in the erstwhile Travancore kingdom had more to do with them being a minority non-Malayali caste. Remember, the present day Kerala (encompassing the former princely states of Travancore and Malabar) used to be a hotbed of untouchability. As far as the social hierarchy was concerned, the Kerala Iyers (most of whom were migrants from Trichy, Tanjore and Kumbakonam) were placed a level below the Namboothiris, who occupied the top spot. The Tulu Brahmins enjoyed higher status than the Tamil Brahmins in some areas. Then came the Nairs who were placed above the other Shudra castes. The Nadars were considered almost untouchables and were not allowed inside temples because they were involved in toddy trade; however, they gained upward social mobility when came back to TN, where they became a somewhat dominant social group. The Sivakasi riots had more to do with the uprising of Nadars rather than the loss of privilege of Maravars.
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Honest Raj
July 7, 2019
@Arjun: Thanks for the link. While it’s reasonable to give him a benefit of doubt with regards to Thevar Magan, he comes across as a privileged fool in his interview about the Virumandi issue (I’d, anyday, place Virumandi above TM though). Being a proud Maduraikaran, surely he must have been aware of the caste violence that shook the southern districts in 1997-98. But wait, this “intellect” believes that all it takes to do away with the caste system is to get a “No caste” certificate. God save TN!
In Tamil Nadu, Ilayaraja is a good example of the former kind who constantly strives to obfuscate his origins.
I don’t disagree but the IR that we see today is the polar opposite of what he used to be in his formative years. He was a hardcore anti-theist and was actively involved with the communist movement, thanks to his elder brother.
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Enigma
July 7, 2019
I haven’t lived in any place other than Chennai in India. I, as a Brahmin, have faced a lot of discrimination, specifically at the hands of tamil Christians. I studied in a Christian missionary school – the teachers were mostly tamil Christian. There were a lot of snide comments from them against the Hindus and Brahmins. Tamil Christian students were bigots too. The mallu Christians, muslims and other non-brahmin Hindus were fine, generally did not bring up caste in any discussions. From my experience I can say that the rationalists/DMK supporters are bigots too. Going by my personal experience, at least in Chennai, there is a lot of discrimination against the Brahmins.
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Eswar
July 7, 2019
BR:. Thanks for that 🙂. Appreciate it. I will put together a piece and get in touch with you.
Honest Raj: The point I tried to make was caste discrimination in TN is not just about Brahmins vs Non-Brahmins. It goes beyond that. A caste group slotted under BC currently was at some point discriminated by some one other than non-Brahmins. I used the Nadar example only to illustrate that point. But may be I didn’t communicate it across well 🙂.
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vinjk
July 8, 2019
@Eswar
I loved your detailed, informative comment.
There is one aspect of Ranjith’s answer which I don’t (fully) agree with. Ranjith said something in those lines, in rural areas it is caste and in cities it is class. As Eswar in his comment wrote, “…That discrimination manifests itself in different ways in different societies and it modernises itself when societies modernise”.
I felt Ranjith equates class and caste. It is true both leads to discrimination. But they are not the same. Class, as in money and affluence, can be achieved with effort and some luck. But can we say the same for caste? Caste is damning or exalting a person from birth for no action or achievement of that person.
I think the more difficult it is to identify one’s caste, the more chances the system will weaken and eventually die. Perhaps rapid urbanisation might be its death knell.
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Heisenberg
July 8, 2019
While outside the movies, Ranjith makes very loud and bold statements, somehow his movies were very toned down version of what he wants to say. Kabali made him a household name and if I am not wrong, Kabali was not explicitly shown as Dalit, unlike in a movie like say Pariyerum perumal. Yes, there were lot of indications, dialogues or books placed to convey the fact, an average moviegoer would miss these subtleties if they watch it without knowing/watching any or Ranjith’s interviews.
Yet, the movie did piss off certain section of audiences, casteists/ Online Aanda parambarai boys. Especially there were quite a number of posts on Rajini’s climax dialogue “Unaku pidikala na, apdi dhan Kaal mela kaal potu ukkaruven”. And few more found a background thevar photo in Sangili Murugan’s home, (who would have given place to kumudhavalli after kabali being jalied) and wrote things like even in this movie you cannot deny we are the saviors for your kind.
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Heisenberg
July 8, 2019
Ranjith seems to have taken offence on being Activist/Filmmaker. He may deny it, but the truth is the artist/filmmaker in him takes a backseat, while making films. I can see some parallels in his career trajectory with SP Jananathan. He made a fantastic debut with Iyarkai but almost immediately he became focused on peddling out movies with communism ideologies. To quote BR, he started making propaganda movies and now I am not even sure if he’s still an active filmmaker.
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Arjun
July 8, 2019
@Honest Raj: I don’t think Thevar magan can be attributed to naivette. Curiously he began talking up plans of making TH 2 just before announcing his entry into politics. I cannot interpret that as anything but a cynical attempt to woo that constituency. AFAIK, TM was the first movie to explicitly have a caste name in its title. Strange choice indeed for a progressive Periyarist. Many other Kamal productions since have deliberately highlighted the castes of either the protagonists or side characters.
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brangan
July 8, 2019
Arjun: CHINNA GOUNDER was released earlier that year, during Pongal.
Also, there was MOTOR SUNDARAM PILLAI, in 1966. Or even NAYAKAN, in 1987 (even though the name means “hero”/”protagonist”, it’s also a fact that he is Velu Nayakar.)
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Arjun
July 8, 2019
@BR: Thanks for the fact check. Thought Chinna Gounder was after Thevar Magan. Nayagan, even if one interprets the title that way, one could argue is not a movie about the way of life (real or imagined) of a dominant caste, unlike the other 2. I had to Google motor sundaram pillai and saw this on wiki 🙂
“Baradwaj Rangan was asked by an anonymous person how someone like Sivaji Ganesan could be called a great actor, and replied, “Watch Uyarndha Manithan and Motor Sundaram Pillai, and let’s continue this conversation.”
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brangan
July 8, 2019
Haha, thanks for the flashback 🙂
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brangan
July 8, 2019
Also, brought up NAYAKAN because it is a film about a dominant man (and based on Varadaraja Mudaliar, another dominant caste man) becoming some sort of protector / saviour.
I don’t have a problem with this, because to me, this film is rooted solidly in the Romantic tradition, more about the character and his journey than about social comment. But I can see how this could be seen as problematic by some, the way ARTICLE 15 is.
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Eswar
July 9, 2019
vinjk: You are right in saying they are not the same. They become equal only at a point of abstraction. The abstraction here being treating people differently without going into the details of what is that being different. Ranjit probably gets to this abstraction from his exposure to the struggles of Black community and from there he guesses that the very early man would have wanted to control another person for some reason through some means and from there this has carried over in different forms.
I reach this abstraction from a very cynical point of view i.e every human has an inherent urge to feel different and to be superior at least to one another person in this world. In a way, it’s an existential question i.e If I am same as every other person out there, then what is the purpose of me being here. So he starts finding differences that would make him feel superior, purposeful in this life. So if we nullify one identity, one difference, then he is likely to pick another one. That class takes over in the absence of caste in urban areas kind of illustrates this.
Though caste is less visible in urban areas, there is a point where caste takes prominence even in urban areas i.e marriage. Marriage gives a licence to ask someone about their caste directly. I would guess arranged marriages are almost always within marriageable caste groups even in urban areas. And the marriage ceremony is usually caste specific as well.
It seems obvious that urbanisation would potentially weak caste differences. But Shruti Rajagoplan, an economist, in her conversation with Amit Varma, made an interesting point. Because of the nature of our economy which is mostly unorganised, when people from villages migrate to cities, they need a trustable identity to find jobs, to make connections etc. It also works the other way round. i.e if you are coming to a city and setting up a business you look for people that you can trust. Caste acts as this trustable identity. In a way, this is probably the point Hari touched upon in his first comment as ‘a sense of community’. Every Tamil hero who comes from a village has a oorkaaran in the city to help him settle in the new place. If I remember correctly, the Dabbawallas are all used to be from a single caste from a single village. No? So in the absence of an organised work force, urbanisation could very well be a thriving place for Caste. It’s just that it’s not visible 🙂.
I think this is the episode where Shruti Rajagoplan makes the above point. http://www.seenunseen.in/episodes/2018/1/22/episode-52-caste-in-modern-india
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Honest Raj
July 9, 2019
@Eswar: The point I tried to make was caste discrimination in TN is not just about Brahmins vs Non-Brahmins.
This has been the case everywhere. The caste system in Kerala was far more rigid. As far as the Nadars were concerned, I’m saying that them being looked down by other dominant castes in the past had more to do with their lowly status in the neighbouring Travancore. The community has prospered both socially and economically post independence.
The anti-Brahmin movement in TN is purely political in nature; it’s not widespread but mostly orchestrated. Which is why, barring a few incidents such as the cutting of poonool by some fringe elements, we don’t see any large scale violence unleashed upon them.
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Honest Raj
July 9, 2019
@Arjun: The idea of Kamal becoming a politician in 1992 seems far-fetched. I’m talking about his reckless attitude in this interview:
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TambiDude
July 9, 2019
“You know just from the surname what caste the person is. As a TamBram who grew up in Mumbai, I was forced to add Iyengar as my surname which neither I nor my parents wanted. My father’s name is Mohan and I was named Madan so that my name would be Madan Mohan (after the music director) and Maharashtra education system totally ruined it! ”
HA HA. When I was in the tenth standard, I had to get a school certificate mentioning my DOB. In those days that certificate was the gold standard for proof of age. It was also the time to correct your DOB or change your name.
Anyhow my Delhi school teacher refused to accept my name for that certificate since there was no sharma/kapoor like surname. All I had was Srinivasan as my initial (dads name) and my name. My dad was dead against adding Iyengar as the last name. So we opted for an easy truce. Split my name into two and that’s why I ended up with a gult sounding last name. From there it became my legal name. It is ridiculous that in US my dad’s name is my legal first name.
That whole thing was a joke given that around that time in Bihar and other places there was a strong movement to discard surnames which reveal caste. Jayprakash Narayan was the pioneer in that movement.
ps: No need to mention Iyengar as your last name. Your disposition for infinite argument, circular or triangular, and just never say die approach to it, made it abundantly clear to me that you are a fellow effing Iyengar. (j/k)
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Arjun
July 18, 2019
The last few comments above amply demonstrate the point Rahini and some others made above. Brahmins, even the supposedly liberal ones somehow have this urge to signal their caste, subcaste, gothra etc when nobody even asks.Doesn’t matter if it is in the context of making a point. And some fellow clan member immediately latches on to bond on that basis.
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Isai
July 18, 2019
“The last few comments above amply demonstrate the point Rahini and some others made above. Brahmins, even the supposedly liberal ones somehow have this urge to signal their caste, subcaste, gothra etc when nobody even asks.Doesn’t matter if it is in the context of making a point.”
Valid point Arjun. I think for brahmins, it is like mentioning which district of Tamil Nadu one hails from. Whether it is Tiruvallur or Tirunelveli, there is usually no hesitation (I think) in revealing one’s district. But for many others, it is like revealing which part of Chennai one resides. It is not a problem for someone living in Adyar or Anna Nagar. But, for someone living in the poorer areas, there is this hesitation because they feel some people are going to look down upon them if they reveal that. So, when they meet someone who often talks about his home at boat club road, they are going to perceive it as an assertion of superiority, irrespective of that person’s intentions. (Especially when all of them are working in say Bangalore and hence their Chennai home address would not be usually relevant.)
“And some fellow clan member immediately latches on to bond on that basis.”
I think this happens with all castes/groups, especially when that group is in minority (say Tamils in Kolkata). A pentecostal Christian will be happy to meet someone from the same denomination at his workplace etc.
The reason why it is so obvious with brahmins is that their lingo is easily identifiable, and unlike others, they don’t have any hesitation in using their lingo or talking about their caste. A person born and brought up in Tirunelveli will limit his usage of native slang when he comes to work in Chennai. But, this limitation/ hesitation is not shown by brahmins, even when interacting with other groups. Also, brahmins in TN are disproportionately higher in higher education based jobs, to an extent that in many cases, they occupy 30%+ of jobs. No other caste has this level of representation. So, these incidents are going to be seen more often amongst brahmins. As long as this doesn’t lead to a bias, especially in a superior-subordinate relationship, I don’t see it as a major problem. But at the same time, pointing this out in public should not be seen as brahmin bashing. It is only an attempt to inform/sensitise them on how some of their actions are making some others feel.
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krishikari
July 18, 2019
There’s a kind of stealth bragging in brahmins declaring their caste, no need to sugarcoat the motives by saying everyone does it. Everyone does not do it on public blogs.
Loved this in depth interview, though my Tamil is not strong enough to understand each and every word. I will have to listen again to the art vs. propoganda question and answer.
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TambiDude
July 18, 2019
Arjun: Your point may be very well valid, but to say that others don’t indulge in casteism is an outright lie. Actually others take it to the next level. Physical violence against lower caste as proved by almost daily occurrence in TN against Dalits by Vanniars and other caste. You prefer that? Tamil non brahmins have no moral right to broach this topic when they are one of the most brutal suppressors of Dalits. There are even stories of Dalit converted to Christianity denied entry in Churches in southern Tamilnadu because of lack of pedigree.
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Isai
July 18, 2019
TambiDude: I believe we are discussing about the behavior of college educated, urban office goers in this thread. Why bring the rural caste based violence to this discussion? Even otherwise, why shouldn’t someone COMMENT with a criticism of one group say brahmins without criticising all other groups? And how does worser behavior by other groups justify the condonation of this behavior of brahmins?
I believe that there is a suppression of caste identity amongst other Tamils when they move to a multicultural/diverse office environment. This is not happening, at least to the same extent, amongst tamil brahmins.
“Tamil non brahmins have no moral right to broach this topic when they are one of the most brutal suppressors of Dalits”
I don’t think you believe that such violent behavior is exhibited by the readers of this blog. So why should they be denied the right to express their opinion just because they happen to be born in the same caste? And about dalits, well how many well known brahmins have immediately condemned when an incident related to dalit violence happens? So, why use that ONLY to divert the attention when questions are raised about the brahmins’ behavior?
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TambiDude
July 18, 2019
Isai: “Why bring the rural caste based violence to this discussion? ”
Because Arjun’s comment was comment in general about brahmins in every env. Check Arjun’s other messages too. There is a history. His attack on brahmins is long outside “the behavior of college educated, urban office goers in this thread” circle.
What is wrong in dragging rural caste based violence? Because it shows tamils are utterly casteist and that can not be conveniently blamed on Brahmins?
I will be the last person to deny the superiority complex of some brahmins and the ridiculous extent they go to protect that caste purity. But I will also be the first person to show mirror to folks like Arjun.
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Arjun
July 19, 2019
@Tambidude: What is this, the oppression olympics? I have never denied that all castes are guilty of some degree of casteism. As Ambedkar eloquently described it “a system of graded inequality in which castes are arranged according to an ascending scale of reverence, and a descending scale of contempt . ”
But all this still doesn’t justify repeatedly signalling one’s caste in a public forum. a relatively progressive one at that and then going on to make in-group jokes and quips.
“The reason why it is so obvious with brahmins is that their lingo is easily identifiable, and unlike others, they don’t have any hesitation in using their lingo or talking about their caste.”
Yes, to an outsider it appears they have no self-awareness at all. They don’t even seem conscious or embarrassed by it.
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hari
July 19, 2019
“Yes, to an outsider it appears they have no self-awareness at all. They don’t even seem conscious or embarrassed by it.” – wow just because you are able to identify by brahmin lingo I have to change the way I talk, wow just wow, fantastic. It reminds me of mine and my siblings college days, I’m sure it also happens much worse now, whenever we were in college talking among a group we would have to use a “normal” accent lest we are made fun of. We used to be mocked as “thayir saadam, pazham, naamam etc etc if we used such a lingo. My wife was mocked almost all her college life. Two of my nephews used to sport a kudumi in school, out of two one had to cut his because he was constantly bullied.
It is tantamount to asking a Kovai native not to use his, a Hyderabadi not to use his lingo, a bhopali not to use his, a sindhi not to use his. At one side we as Tamils say don’t force Hindi on us, we all are distinct etc etc, and here you are asking Brahmins not to be themselves? Why do you want us to be conscious, why do you want us to be embarassed?
I always have felt it is not prudent on my part to respond to your comments in a lot of threads, but this one clearly shows your prejudice against one community.
And regarding “But at the same time, pointing this out in public should not be seen as brahmin bashing.”, if I have faced casteism just because I’m a Brahmin, I will call it out as Brahmin bashing whereever I feel it and because I know how it works.
People are asking why should Brahmins talk about their gothrams etc, I ask why not, if they feel comfortable talking about it? In my friends group there are christians from different denominations of Kerala and some from Goa. They talk about their habits and practices among themselves, I listen to their conversations quite keenly and learn from them. I never have made them conscious about it. As a “liberal” I learn from them and let them be.
Let me ask you guys this, if you see someone sporting a “naamam”, do you take an offence to it? If yes, then whose problem is it?
In TN, each community member wear a different thali, if you see one such thaali and identify the community, do you call that person a casteist or or you are the casteist here? Adding on if some women comes to your office/house, asking for work/employment etc, and if you discriminate just based on their thali, then who is the casteist?
Seeing casteism in every thing is not going to solve the caste problem, infact it will only exacerbate IMHO.
I reiterate casteism is a huge problem in TN. But blaming brahmins alone for it is not going to solve it.
I generally don’t comment about casteism in threads, but felt like expressing in this thread so that others can understand different perspectives. Thanks BR for giving the space.
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Varsha Ganesh
July 19, 2019
Hari – You are talking about a lived experience, which I`m sure was very hurtful personally to you and your wife. That is not ok. It is also important to consider that there are several others whose lived experiences of being systematically denigrated or denied opportunities because of Brahmin supremacy are valid. Your experience does not invalidate theirs and vice-versa.
It becomes a societal caste-evil talk when both the number of incidents and the magnitude of damage relating from those incidents spike in either case. A ‘bonding harmless in-group chat’ becomes damaging when it manifests itself as maybe an unconscious bias in hiring practices. Unfortunately, economic equality has not been achieved and Brahmins still enjoy privilege with respect to educational opportunities or representation in places of decision making. So maybe you, as an individual, would think twice about your biases when exerting your decision-making privileges but not everyone in your community may. Which is where the self-awareness part that Rahul is talking about comes in. The ability to discern that even though certain experiences of yours have been unfair to you as an individual, socially, you are in a position of privilege where it matters.
(*when I say you, I mean upper castes in general, not you personally)
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TambiDude
July 20, 2019
“Unfortunately, economic equality has not been achieved and Brahmins still enjoy privilege with respect to educational opportunities or representation in places of decision making.”
Still !!! Charming.
Show me one country with economic equality among different ethnicity, race, color etc. In USA whites and Jews have much higher affluence than blacks or hispanics. There is an effort to shame them of their success and redistribute their wealth to less affluent. Technical term for such people is ‘cuck’. Currently 4 such Dem women are in news, which unfortunately POTUS contributed no less by ‘send them back’ nonsense.
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Honest Raj
July 20, 2019
@Varsha: You meant social capital?
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Bala
July 22, 2019
In the heart of IT corridor of bangalore, there are two bus stops, one named Kundanahalli and another named Kundanahalli colony. I used to wonder “what a strange naming convention”. Got the explanation after seeing this video. That’s really sad!!
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Varsha Ganesh
July 22, 2019
Honest Raj – I meant to say it becomes a social problem when either of those dynamics causes real persistent problems. Social capital does fit well here.
Tambi dude – Why this ‘whataboutism’? Another country having the same problems as us does not mean ours are not problems. I am not talking about taking money from one group and handing it to another group. Just saying we have to try to level the playing field which has been skewed for far too long.
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vinjk
July 23, 2019
An article in today’s The Hindu:
What does it mean to oppose Brahmanism? (Rajeev Bhargava)
https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/what-does-it-mean-to-oppose-brahmanism/article28658412.ece?homepage=true
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Arjun
July 23, 2019
@Hari: “It is tantamount to asking a Kovai native not to use his, a Hyderabadi not to use his lingo, a bhopali not to use his, a sindhi not to use his. At one side we as Tamils say don’t force Hindi on us, we all are distinct etc etc, and here you are asking Brahmins not to be themselves? Why do you want us to be conscious, why do you want us to be embarassed?”
Do you really not understand the difference between a regional dialect and a caste dialect. The former represents a natural variation of a language while the latter is something that a particular caste, brahmins, have consciously developed to differentiate themselves from the unwashed “shudras”. Whether it is the way they wear the veshti, drape the saree, the poonool, the kudumi the forehead markings, the way they talk, they do everything different, and all with one and only one underlying purpose, to signal their caste to their brethen and maintain their privileges, whether in temples or secular spaces.
“Let me ask you guys this, if you see someone sporting a “naamam”, do you take an offence to it? ”
I don’t take offence, but at the same time I can’t help wonder why most people who sport a namam happen to be parochial casteists who have no care for any issues beyond their brahmin bubbles.
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Madan
July 23, 2019
“The former represents a natural variation of a language while the latter is something that a particular caste, brahmins, have consciously developed to differentiate themselves from the unwashed “shudras”. ” – That is your interpretation. Brahmana Tamil has retained enough of Tamil to be a natural variation of it. The loan words are from Sanskrit, same as Hindi or Marathi. Additionally, a child growing up in a Brahmin household is exposed only to Brahmana Tamil at home and it becomes very difficult to avoid speaking it and consciously speak any other kind of Tamil. Ergo, those who hear Brahmana Tamil words like Bhaashai instead of Mozhi and promptly decide the speaker is a bigot of the worst order is no different from the SJWs on the left that you otherwise claim to dislike. Neither my parents nor I are particularly religious and we have to be prodded to wear a naamam for festival days. We certainly don’t that ever at work. BUT we all speak Brahmana Tamil because that is the only Tamil we learnt at home. Please step back and take a broader view of this. The raison d’eitre of using a different type of Tamil is irrelevant today as Brahmins have long since ceded political power in TN. Ergo, the very reason for disliking it as intensely as you seem to should be irrelevant too. As of now, it is just an inconvenient cultural baggage thrust upon us by accident of birth.
Now I will not hold it against you for making this argument because I know that there are unfortunately those Brahmins who still make funny faces when they refer to other castes (this is strictly in private when they feel comfortable in the midst of one of their ‘own’) and also because I have grown up and lived in Mumbai where I was never ragged for speaking Brahmana Tamil and have not faced what hari describes (though I have been mocked for speaking a ‘Madrasi’ language per se 😉 ). But I will not be surprised to see those like hari turned off by your rhetoric either. And his larger question remains unaddressed. You can pillory Brahmins all day but you have no solution for the new found Devar and other castes pride. Somewhere, the experiment to dismantle caste structures has failed in TN and perhaps fell prey to the same myopic politicking as in other states. As long as politicians club people into caste coalitions for electoral purposes and as long as the concerned caste groups support this instead of beating such politicians with chappals, casteism will never die in India. Oh, wait, at best it can be replaced by an equally virulent hatred of Muslims as seems to have happened in UP. But that is not the kind of caste consolidation we wanted. Hindus should see each other as of the same community notwithstanding cultural differences even when not bound by hatred of the ‘other’.
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sanjana
July 23, 2019
Arjun:Do you really not understand the difference between a regional dialect and a caste dialect. The former represents a natural variation of a language while the latter is something that a particular caste, brahmins, have consciously developed to differentiate themselves from the unwashed “shudras”. Whether it is the way they wear the veshti, drape the saree, the poonool, the kudumi the forehead markings, the way they talk, they do everything different, and all with one and only one underlying purpose, to signal their caste to their brethen and maintain their privileges, whether in temples or secular spaces.
I dont think it was consciously developed. And now only very few think about superiority. By the way I dont belong to tamil or its caste system. So no vested interest. In andhra or karnataka, the brahmins dont have particularly separate lingo or dialect. According to regions, their respective language varies. And modernism has crept in and many of them dont sport any brahmin symbol. Just like modern women not flaunting mangal sutras or bindis or sindoor.
Brahmins should not complain too much for all those barbs and they should introspect about how brahminism has treated the lower classes in the past, especially the lowest. In the same way, attributing ulterior motives to those wearing those symbols and talking in their natural dialect is also not done. For some of the problems we are facing today, the feudalistic other castes are more to blame as they are the regional satraps in every state.
I am also for uniformity in dress code but then what about sikhs and muslims? Is not that variety gives color to India? The flip side is the same symbols and other body parts become an easy target when riots break out. What we need is an implementation of reforms than crying hoarse about sacred threads, skull caps, pagdis, kirpans etc.
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Arjun
July 23, 2019
” Brahmana Tamil has retained enough of Tamil to be a natural variation of it. The loan words are from Sanskrit, same as Hindi or Marathi.
The operative word is “natural”. And it most certainly is NOT a natural variation the way thirunelveli or kongu tamil is. Those dialects are not restricted to any particular caste and developed naturally the way a Yorkshire or cockney english did. All other castes adopt the language of the region they live in, but not tamil brahmins. It is a particular dialect that was consciously developed by them while living in near total insulation from the larger tamil community in their agraharams and using it as one of many caste identifiers to keep the “other” out and barricade their clan’s interests…often at the expense of the majority non-brahmins.
And you say, “Additionally, a child growing up in a Brahmin household is exposed only to Brahmana Tamil at home and it becomes very difficult to avoid speaking it and consciously speak any other kind of Tamil. ”
Thanks for proving my point that even after half a century of Ambedkar and Periyar, the tamil brahmins continue to live in total insulation from other tamils to the extent that they have no idea how other tamils speak, or even if they do, can’t be bothered to shed their caste dialect, even in public spaces. How does everyone else manage it but brahmins can’t? In Chennai, you can not tell someone’s caste from the way he/she speaks…Except Brahmins. Again proving that even in cities they prefer to stay in their bubbles, barricading their fiefdoms like temples and carnatic music.
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Madan
July 23, 2019
@Arjun : Your entire lofty premise of Brahmins living in insulation is based on an assumption that Brahmana Tamil has not changed. I do not blame you for making that assumption but it is incorrect. My generation can no longer speak the chaste adiyen type of Brahmin Tamil nor have any interest in learning to do so. Additionally, those in our community who moved out of TN were further isolated from Brahminical orthodoxy and veered closer to colloquial Tamil. Really, what is called Brahmana Tamil today is nothing but colloquial Tamil with loan words from the original Brahmin Tamil. If somebody from older generation says thalligai, I do a double think because my family stopped using those words.
So when your hair stands on end at the mere mention of thayir sadam, I posit it says more about your own language puritanism than Brahmins’ reluctance to move with the times. Outside TN, Brahmins and Non Brahmins get along just fine because we emphasise our similarities rather than our differences. Clearly, however, you have no inclination to do that and that is your prerogative. But then own your part in it. Brahmins are not without fault for continued friction between them and other castes in TN, but it also takes two hands to clap, ya know.
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Isai
July 23, 2019
“All other castes adopt the language of the region they live in, but not tamil brahmins.”
While I somewhat agree with the notion that tamil brahmins tend to live like ‘oil in water’, dialects of Tamil is a complex topic and does have both regional and caste variations.
https://web.archive.org/web/20110723185203/http://www.lisindia.net/Tamil/Tamil_vari.html#
“M. Shanmugam Pillai in his paper Fisherman Tamil of Kanyakumari (1968 reproduced 1981) compares the Fishermen Tamil (KF) with the Harijan (H), Nadar (N) and Vellala (V) Tamil dialects of the same district, at the phonological, morphological and lexical level, Sorting out the common and distinctive features for these dialects and comparing them, he concludes that innovations in dialects can only be comparative and it is always doubtful whether any dialect can enjoy monopoly otherwise. Out of 83 items discussed, 38 are innovations for KF when compared with other dialects. In a tracheotomy of Non-Harijan Tamil dialects as (1) Brahmin (2) Higher Non-Brahmin (3) Lower –Non-Brahmin, KF is found to be nearer to Lower-Non-Brahmin Tamil dialect. He also suggests in his paper that dialect switching is due to the hierarchy of the caste structure, coupled with its prestige and social politics and not economics or education.”
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hari
July 23, 2019
@Arjun your comments clearly indicate your prejudices/hatred against one community, I have nothing more to discuss with you.
@Madan thanks for jotting down your well articulated comments, appreciate it.
@Sanjana – “Brahmins should not complain too much for all those barbs and they should introspect about how brahminism has treated the lower classes in the past, especially the lowest.” – would this thought process help my nephew to tide over the harassment faced by him in school for wearing “kudumi”? Sorry to say, but it does not. Harassment is harassment, no matter how much of justification we can give and no matter who faces it. Hope you get my point. Thanks.
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Aadhy
July 23, 2019
I understand the point that for the newer generation who don’t subscribe to the brahmin identity by choice, being born into a family which follows a brahmin culture (language, food, dressing) would leave them with habits that disclose their brahmin-ness easily to the outside world, sometimes involuntarily. I think it’s unfair to accuse someone as casteist if their actions bring out some caste markers without them realizing it. It’s still a privilege only the upper castes enjoy. The oppressed castes, as per their position in the hierarchy, aren’t at a liberty to disclose such markers as much as the ones above them. As Ranjith says, the way to solve this is to have a psychological approach rather than plain slander.
At the same time, I also don’t see the point of brahmins indulging in whataboutery as Varsha said, everytime someone calls them out for a casteist action/practice. It doesn’t mean the other castes are absolved of casteism. In fact Ranjith’s major criticism (which is also mine) on the dravidian parties (constituting mostly intermediate castes) is that they failed to address the casteist aggression in the intermediate castes and are culpable for non-action with respect to caste-based violence and honor killings in TN till date. In fact, the rise of VCK and Dalit Panthers in TN stems solely from this criticism on the dravidian parties. Therefore brahmins could maybe try to understand the seemingly disproportionate anger on them is because of two reasons.
1) Brahmins fail to see, or are blissfully unaware of how they had/have a primary role in upholding and promoting varnashrama through vedas, puranas, mantras and rituals till date. The present day aanda paramabarais and veera kula chatriyans held their own positions of privilege in the social structure those days and even if placed lower than brahmins, never attempted to question the varnashrama because that would mean questioning the most scholarly people in the system and more importantly, questioning the holy vedas which meant incurring the wrath of god itself. That’s why any casteist practice, even if done by thevars are gounders, are termed as ‘brahminical’. There is still only one community here which practices sanskrit, has the access to the altar of a temple and is generally regarded closer to god. The stray recruitment of a dalit priest by Travancore devaswom or the first non-brahmin priest at the thallakulam aiyappan temple in Madurai won’t count because they had to be ‘brahminised’ before they could work at the altar.
2) Brahmins get away with casteist practices, especially in cities, because the way it’s done is not violent or blatantly obvious to be deemed discriminatory by Article 15 or the Prevention of Atrocities Act. It’s a casual type of casteism, sometimes intellectual. It could be seen in the ‘vegetarians only’ housing, there are neighborhoods in Chennai like Mylapore, West Mambalam and Nanganallur that are referred inside their community as ‘Brahmin areas’. A liberal news organisation like The Hindu banned employees from eating meat in their dining halls, as revealed by an ex-employee Malarvizhi Jayanth. There are schools in the city which the brahmins prefer because of their brahmin environment. The brahmin kids are so indoctrinated by their parents that they wouldn’t share even the vegetarian food brought by the non-brahmin kid in the class, because the tiffin box is now ‘impure’. The school I went to ( a quite popular one, in one of these ‘brahmin areas’) gave an extra half a day off for aavani aavattam, only for kids wearing poonool, because they had to do gayatri jabam post the festival. Recently, there was also this fad within brahmins about anything ‘Tambrahm’, which we saw extensively on social media when the younger generation started wearing their caste identity on their sleeves like it was a cool fad and suddenly it became a nationwide thing resulting in numerous social media groups (confession pages, proposals etc.). The standup comedy scene in Chennai, exclusively follows the principle of ‘by the brahmins, for the brahmins’. Even the jokes about their brahminical practices are about how funny and cute they are, not how casteist these practices are. The one reasonably funny one in that unfunny lot, a christian named Alex, also has to pepper his sets with tambrahm-relatable jokes to pander to the largely tambrahm audience.
To end my comment, I can completely relate to the experiences by some commenters above on how brahmins disclose their caste markers in totally heterogeneous environments like cities and workplaces. I learnt carnatic music and you can only imagine how many people (including my teacher(s)) would have assumed my caste, because how else will I be a quick-learner of the swarams and kanakkus if I’m also not a nammalava , right? My comment is not to plainly accuse brahmins for every disparity existing in the society, but moving on from whataboutery and doing suyasaadhi vimarsanam is what will help us atleast merely understand about this complex social evil, let alone eradicating it.
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Isai
July 23, 2019
“The former represents a natural variation of a language while the latter is something that a particular caste, brahmins, have consciously developed to differentiate themselves from the unwashed “shudras”. Whether it is the way they wear the veshti, drape the saree, the poonool, the kudumi the forehead markings, the way they talk, they do everything different, and all with one and only one underlying purpose, to signal their caste to their brethen and maintain their privileges, whether in temples or secular spaces.”
I don’t agree with attributing malafide intentions to every distinctive trait of any group. All these traits had been developed in the past centuries when people predominantly lived in villages, where almost everyone knew each other’s caste. So, why did they need to develop so many traits just to display their caste? AFAIK the saree draping style, forehead markings, dialects etc are different for Iyers and Iyengars.And again AFAIK there is no agreed superiority between these two brahmin groups.
A variation of the above quoted statement is that some temples ask you to remove your shirt ONLY so that the priests can easily identify the brahmins. AFAIK, shirt/upper cloth was not part of the standard tamil man’s attire.
Even today, men of different castes worship in their homes, immediately after bathing, without wearing shirts.
A well known idiot once wrote that women prefer to wear saree because ‘it allows them to easily reveal their waists’. Attributing motives like these, is easy to do but difficult to prove or disprove.
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Madan
July 23, 2019
Aadhy : Great post and FWIW I would say not touching tiffin box of non vegetarians is not even subtly casteist, it is blatant. I hold Brahmins in contempt for these and other more insidious forms of casteism. They cannot then seek shelter under culture because that would then lead us right back to the bad old days. That being said, I maintain that litigating language is a pointless pursuit that will not lead to productive outcomes. As long as nobody says or implies that the language spoken by lower castes is inferior, there should not be a problem. Otherwise, what you are suggesting is akin to expecting white people to imitate the way black people speak English so that the latter feel more comfortable. Not only is it not going to happen, it is unnecessary.
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Anu Warrier
July 23, 2019
I’ve read this entire discussion with great interest. And I’m intrigued enough to want to know more. The reason for this is simple – the use of language. Because, in Kerala, as the other Malayalis on this board will attest, there are several different accents – both by region and by caste/community.
In Trichur, for example, while there’s a very well-known ‘Trichur dialect’, that’s not the way my family speak. The Malayalam the Nampoothiris speak there is very different from the way the Syrian Christians speak (which, again, is different from the way the Catholics speak Malayalam). The ‘moplah’ Malayalam of the Malabar region is a completely different language from the one that Muslims in Trichur speak. And no one else in the Malabar region speaks moplah Malayalam.
The Thiruvananthapuram Malayalam is as far removed from the Trichur Malayalam as possible but that does not mean that that language/dialect/accent is the same across the communities living there.
In Bombay, as Madan may know, the ‘Bandra Hindi’ is a lingo in itself. And it’s mostly restricted to a community; not all who live in Bandra speak that way.
I think that’s to be expected in a land as diverse as ours – I don’t know enough about TamBrahms in Chennai, but even though the brahmin kids I taught in a premier school in Trichur had moved away from their parents’ dialect, hints of it still remained in some of the words they used.
On a related note, I’ve always code-switched when I speak to people. Does anyone else do that?
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Arjun
July 23, 2019
@Isai: “I don’t agree with attributing malafide intentions to every distinctive trait of any group. All these traits had been developed in the past centuries when people predominantly lived in villages, where almost everyone knew each other’s caste. So, why did they need to develop so many traits just to display their caste?”
I will just quote this passage from Ambedkar’s AOC:
“Each caste not only dines among itself and marries among itself, but each caste prescribes its own distinctive dress. What other explanation can there be of the innumerable styles of dress worn by the men and women of India, which so amuse the tourists? Indeed the ideal Hindu must be like a rat living in his own hole, refusing to have any contact with others. There is an utter lack among the Hindus of what the sociologists call “consciousness of kind.” There is no Hindu consciousness of kind. In every Hindu the consciousness that exists is the consciousness of his caste. That is the reason why the Hindus cannot be said to form a society or a nation.”
And seeing how so many liberal brahmins above continue to ask, “why should we not discuss gothrams if we are interested”, “why not retain our brahmin dialects”, “what about other intermediate castes who oppress”, and so on, again Ambedkar was prescient.
From AOC again:
“The Brahmins form the vanguard of the movement for political reform, and in some cases also of economic reform. But they are not to be found even as camp-followers in the army raised to break down the barricades of Caste. Is there any hope of the Brahmins ever
taking up a lead in the future in this matter? I say no.
You may ask why. You may argue that there is no reason why Brahmins should continue to shun social reform. You may argue that the Brahmins know that the bane of Hindu Society is Caste, and as an enlightened class they could not be expected to be indifferent to its consequences. You may argue that there are secular Brahmins and priestly Brahmins, and if the latter do not take up the cudgels on behalf of those who want to break Caste, the former will.
All this of course sounds very plausible. But in all this it is forgotten that the break-up of the Caste system is bound to adversely affect the Brahmin caste. Having regard to this, is it reasonable to expect that the Brahmins will ever consent to lead a movement, the ultimate result of which is to destroy the power and prestige of the Brahmin caste? Is it reasonable to expect the secular Brahmins to take part in a movement directed against the priestly Brahmins? In my judgment, it is useless to make a distinction between the secular Brahmins and priestly Brahmins. Both are kith and kin. They are two arms of the same body, and one is bound to fight for the existence of the other.“
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Thupparivaalan
July 23, 2019
The tendency to want to rent a house to people from the same caste while obviously castiest, should not be wrong by law, and especially through prevention of atrocities act. Because it clashes with the right to Property which isn’t a fundamental right anyway, thanks to the socialist tendencies of our leaders. Also, in the act it is stated that even speech which hurts other people is punishable by law. Bye bye free speech. How could anyone be possibly hurt by words is beyond me. It leads to misuse of the act, which shouldn’t exist in the first place. I also feel property rights are not respected as much as they should be in India. I know it is a tricky gray area but, I feel a house owner should do with his house whatever he please even if he’s castiest.
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Varsha Ganesh
July 24, 2019
House renting is an interesting topic to explore.
I wonder, is it ok if one does not want to rent to non-vegetarians/non-brahmins, cause they care about the smell or what not? In that case, if the non-brahmin person is also a vegetarian, then does denying housing become wrong?
How about renting to single girls/boys who may not act in a “traditionally appropriate way”?
Choices do not happen in a vacuum anyway. If someone denies someone else housing, its cause they have decided they are the authority on what the appropriate way to live is and are punishing those who don’t live that way by exerting the choice to deny.
If they are genuinely concerned about the smell or something, they could ask for the house to be repainted before the renters leave. In my opinion, that’s a more reasonable way to live and let live.
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Eswar
July 24, 2019
All these traits had been developed in the past centuries when people predominantly lived in villages, where almost everyone knew each other’s caste. So, why did they need to develop so many traits just to display their caste?
They are probably developed even earlier when tribes and communities didn’t live that close. And when they started living closer they would have held to it even stronger in order to not lose their identity. A modern day example is NRIs building a community and following elaborate rituals, festivals in their emigrated country.
Now, when a sense of superiority is added to these attributes in the name of God, purity, ancestry etc, then people have more reasons to cling on to it, flaunt it or at the least defend it even if they don’t practice it. If not for that sense of superiority groups would shed these markers and identities over a period of time. That is probably why the upper castes retain their identities and the groups at the bottom try to emulate the upper caste in dressing, language and eating habits – a phenomenon M.N.Srinivas coined as Sanskritisation.
In Poomani’s historical fiction Agnaadi, the Panayeri Nadars in their quest to enter the upper caste temple and be treated as equals, start emulating the other upper castes in the village, who are not just Brahmins, like taking bath in the morning, wearing ashes in the forehead, and even not allowing remarriage among the widows. They even dismiss the even lower caste Pandaram priests and replace them with Brahmin priests in the Nadar temples. Some of these practices do not exactly fit with their day to day work. If the first thing one does in the morning is to climb a Palm tree, then would they really want to get all dressed up? Of course Agnaadi is a fiction, but it seems very plausible how communities in their quest to become equal to upper castes start shedding their own identities whether they are meaningful or not.
In a way Pa.Ranjit’s Neelam and the work by Casteless Collective to celebrate North Madras music is against this Sanskritisation. To revive one’s own identity and culture by creating a space and sense of pride.
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therag
July 24, 2019
“I can’t help wonder why most people who sport a namam happen to be parochial casteists who have no care for any issues beyond their brahmin bubbles.” Hah?
Well, it’s quite heartening to know that decades of hate-mongering by the Dravidian parties and Periyar is still earning dividends today. Quite some achievement.
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Madan
July 24, 2019
Anu Warrier: The differences you mention hold true for Tamil itself. Like Mumbai Hindi, Chennai Tamil is considered one of its worst forms. This is different from Kovai Tamil which in turn is different from Madurai Tamil which in turn differs from Palakkad Tamil. The bone of contention here is that Brahmin Tamil appropriated words from Sanskrit to differentiate itself. This doesn’t however make it akin to some alien language either. If people want to get along, they will get along and this goes for Brahmins as well as Non Brahmins. I know of Brahmins who insist on wearing choti and naamam to office even abroad in the USA. While they have the right to, they should be cognisant of what these traditions imply. Arguably, in some cases they are and actively seek out majestic isolation from other communities while playing innocent.
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vinjk
July 24, 2019
Like Anu said, the accents and dialects of Kerala varies as we move along the length of the state.
But I have never witnessed anyone accuse anyone else of being a propagator or torchbearer of their caste or class merely for having a peculiar dialect or accent.
I come from a syrian christian family from Central Travancore region or colloquially known as the “Achayan” belt. Some people tease us for our achchadi bhasha (what’s english for it?! May be too textbook-like language). According to social media gyaan, apparently, this language is a signifier of some higher caste.
I’m learning new things about myself every single day! 😀
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Anu Warrier
July 24, 2019
But I have never witnessed anyone accuse anyone else of being a propagator or torchbearer of their caste or class merely for having a peculiar dialect or accent.
Vinjk, that’s what I was getting at; I have never heard anyone lauding the Nampoothiris (by their own estimation, the highest of the high) for their accent, nor saying that the ‘achayan’ dialect is inferior. We recognise the various accents, of course but I have never seen it as a social demarcation in terms of superiority.
My Malayalam is rather devoid of any accent, perhaps because I grew up outside the state and as I said before, I code-switch. If I talk to you for any length of time, I’ll very easily slip into the achayan bhaasha. Or the Thiruvithankur dialect or the Trichur nasrani (now I’ve to figure out whether ‘nasrani’ is pejorative – anyone?) bhaasha. My aunt, Nair lady, speaks only that dialect actually, since all her friends growing up were Christians. My niece speaks the Trivandrum Malayalam with the speed of the Trichur dialect leading to many perplexed looks from people of both districts who fail to understand her.
The ‘pattar’ malayalam is affectionately mocked but as far as I know, it is seen as an amusing variation of our language. (Why do you think the Malayalees embraced Kamalahasan as the Palakkad cook/chef in MMKR?)
So this caste/class/community division along linguistic lines baffles me.
And for comments saying that only Tamil has linguistic caste divisions, well, the Hindi spoken by the Bandra Christians is different from the Hindi spoken by the Muslims there. Which is different from the way Hindus use the language. The Hindi spoken by Hindus in UP differs from that used by the Muslims in that region. And so on, and so forth.
Does language really have to be homogenous for us to be rid of other divisions? So much to unpack here.
I would say not touching tiffin box of non vegetarians is not even subtly casteist, it is blatant
Have you met vegans here? Man, some of them will absolutely refuse to eat vegan food that is not cooked in a vegan home in case of cross-contamination. Orthodox Jews will not eat in non-kosher homes.
There’s one friend whose house I’m wary of eating even veg food. Now I do cook non-veg, I just haven’t been able to eat it. I’ve tried and I don’t really like it. She sometimes forgets that putting meat or chicken stock into veg dishes makes it quite inedible for me. So instead of quizzing her on every ingredient and becomeing ‘that’ person, I just forgo meals at her place.
What I’m trying to get at is that is it always casteist on the part of vegetarian brahmins to not eat veg food from non-vegetarains? I’m sure some of them are, but is it always so, do you think?
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hari
July 24, 2019
@Madam “they should be cognisant of what these traditions imply.”, what do you mean here?
My professor in the US used to wear Naamam to his classes, he was very revered professor. He wearing namam to his workplace is his choice and no one should have any problems whatsoever.
For your information:-
Iyers sport the Tripundra [3 marks]- forehead markings made with ash. The ash signifies that everything eventually burns in the end and we must get beyond the worldly illusions of Maya.
Iyengars sport the Sricharanam [lord’s feet] in their forehead. Sricharanam reminds a Srivaishnavite to always think the feet of the God and spend their life in devotion.
I wear Vibuthi to my work place not to show off and to alienate myself. Sorry I don’t agree.
Probably a bad example, but just because Nazi’s used Swastika as their symbol doesn’t make the swastika that Hindus sport in their households is a bad symbol. You get my gist I suppose.
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Madan
July 24, 2019
@hari: I mean what I mean (sorry :P). I don’t say that all of those who wear a naamam or that triple vibhuti line are doing it to assert their caste superiority but there are some who do. How do I know? Because they will say so in my presence, feeling comfortable in confiding in a fellow Brahmin. So I may not suspect YOU personally of wearing vibhuti only to show how pure you are (and for that matter, lots of Hindus apply some or other variation like kungumam or sandhanam, which is NOT what I am talking about, ie a far more elaborate display of one’s caste identity) but I know that there are those who do this and then take shelter under the freedom to do what they like pretext. And they create problems for the entire Brahmin community in their refusal to let go of Brahmin supremacy myths. Those days are gone so accept the reality. You are just another Hindu, nothing more, nothing less. Wear traditional Brahminical markers if you like but the moment you start sniggering about other castes behind their back is the moment you validate the stance of the likes of Arjun. Again, not saying you personally, but it applies to those Brahmins who still believe their accident of birth makes them superior.
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vinjk
July 24, 2019
@Anu
“So instead of quizzing her on every ingredient and becoming ‘that’ person, I just forgo meals at her place.”
Wouldn’t your friend feel offended or discriminated against… especially if you are seen to go to other friends’ places?
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Madan
July 24, 2019
@ Anu Warrier: I am not saying every case where a vegetarian acts like they find non veggies impossibly repulsive is driven by casteism but I KNOW there are cases where they assuredly are because such people use the vocabulary of pure /impure. This happens in particular with children. I remember a Marathi Brahmin classmate feeling really angry and upset that a Christian girl in our class touched him after eating fish. In this case, it wasn’t the boy’s fault but that of his parents. And this often happens by blindly passing on customs without questioning whether they are justified. I don’t think his parents believed their being Brahmin made them superior. But they were mortally afraid of the consequences if they failed to abide by their duties as Brahmins. Both paths unfortunately lead to the same results. Even more so now with certain gurus, who shall remain unnamed, using the power of television to further indoctrinate Brahmins and tell them the only way to attain moksha is to do XYZ. The whole edifice would collapse the moment you muster the gumption to say what if I don’t give a shit what my next birth will be like and won’t move mountains to get moksha. But many Brahmins will not do that. They will give in and exert pressure on their Brahmin relatives, friends and acquaintances to comply. I am thankfully immune from it not being from Mumbai (on the other hand maybe if I were in Chennai, I would be less of a hypocrite and just renounce the whole thing and declare myself an atheist). But this in a nutshell is how the more pernicious aspects of Brahmin culture keep getting passed on from generation to generation. They are having trouble though with my generation and the ones that follow. But maybe that will change when they get older.
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hari
July 24, 2019
Madan my comment was on your point “they should be cognisant of what these traditions imply”. Traditionally it doesn’t imply “superiority”. If some douches/assholes/casteists feel that way, nobody can do anything about it. But it does not take away the traditional meaning from these markers.
Regarding your latest comment were you are talking about casteism seen by you in Brahmin households, I just hope other people from other communities also speak out about what happens in their households so that everyone gets a true picture. The problem as I have reiterated earlier as well is that wherever casteism is talked about, only Brahmins are brought in picture, as if no other community follows casteism. And that is my biggest pain point.
@Anu good points. I have a beef loving friend who would mock us for not eating meat and how forward he is etc. One time he rented out his flat to a Korean expatriate and within a month he asked them to vacate. When we quizzed him why, he said he couldn’t stand the food they cooked at his place. And if he had left them to stay he would had to spend a lot for “cleaning” out his place. Such was his forwardness.
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Honest Raj
July 24, 2019
I hail from the part of TN which used to be a Brahmin citadel. Back in school, it was not uncommon for my Brahmin friends to speak their dialects at home and switch to the neutral dialect (read “central Tamil”) outside. I’ve observed this pattern with some TN-bred Sri Lankan Tamils and Chettiars as well. The same was the case with my college friends. One from Gobichettipalayam spoke the standard Tamil – albeit with a tinge of Kongu flavour – while two others, born and brought up in Coimbatore, came much closer to the central dialect.
“It is tantamount to asking a Kovai native not to use his …”
Actually, there’s a tendency in urban areas to mock people who use native dialects.
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Madan
July 24, 2019
hari : To your first para, my response is IF you wear the caste markers out of caste PRIDE, then you need to be cognisant of what it means. And what it means is derived from history, the history of our ancestors choosing to discriminate against lower castes. We are not responsible for their sins, but we also have a duty not to propagate them. If you wear caste markers incidentally as a baggage of your upbringing, I have no issue with that. Again, up-to the point that it doesn’t lead to funny behaviour towards people from lower castes.
As for your second para, it is a whataboutism. Yes, other castes, specifically the middle castes, have their problems which I have called out earlier in this discussion. The most powerful caste in Chennai at least is Chettiar, so there certainly are contexts where Brahmin bashing comes across as disingenuous to me. HOWEVER, that does not exonerate us Brahmins from confronting our own truth and our inability to come down on bad behaviour within our own community. We take a lot of pride in our education and the success we have achieved in white collar fields of high technical achievement. Why has the same education not opened the minds of some, maybe many, in our midst and why do we reflexively cling to religious mores unquestioningly when we are clearly capable of charting our own course when we choose to? You may disagree and that is your prerogative but our community must reflect on these questions.
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Isai
July 24, 2019
“They are probably developed even earlier when tribes and communities didn’t live that close.”
Hmm..let me give an example contradicting the above view: AFAIK, Iyengars differentiated themselves as a separate sect only after Ramanuja who himself is said to have opposed the oppression of the lower castes. I believe the Oor-cheri system had been established by then. The naamam, saree draping style etc. were invented much later.
“they do everything different, and all with one and only one underlying purpose, to signal their caste to their brethen”
It maybe true that some may put naamam since it makes them feel superior/less status anxious but to say that everyone does it for that reason or that it was invented only for that reason (as said above) is wrong, IMHO. All these traits mentioned above have a religious purpose/significance. To ignore this totally means IMO that either one is being cynical or one has had a bad personal experience with brahmins in their childhood/youth that left them with a scar and a bias or one is a brahmin who finds these traits meaningless and hence assumes that other brahmins would have also seen its meaninglessness and are still clinging to it only due to their superiority complex.
” If not for that sense of superiority groups would shed these markers and identities over a period of time.”
This supposes that Muslims who prefer to wear the skull cap in public or Christians who wear the cross do it ONLY out of a sense of superiority. I beg to differ.
“That is probably why the upper castes retain their identities and the groups at the bottom try to emulate the upper caste in dressing, language and eating habits”
I think communities choose to embrace/retain/shed habits and identities based on a) How easy/difficult it is to retain/change that trait. b) How the entire society views that trait and whether the logic used by the society for having that view is acceptable to this community. c) What benefits one would get by changing that trait.
Even Ranjith speaks in his movies about avoiding alcohol. Now, teetotalism was seen as an upper caste habit. Does it mean that Ranjith wants to embrace the habits of the upper castes? I think it is b) and c) mentioned above.
“In a way Pa.Ranjit’s Neelam and the work by Casteless Collective to celebrate North Madras music is against this Sanskritisation.”
Your statement seems to suggest that Carnatic music is quite popular and people went in droves to listen/learn it and hence ignored NM music.
I think Carnatic music is not popular amongst at least 80%+ of people. On the other hand, there is a tendency to look down upon Gaana/folk music since many songs were related to death/sex and hence these were not considered as noble pursuits. These are 2 independent phenomenon.
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Isai
July 24, 2019
“I wonder, is it ok if one does not want to rent to non-vegetarians/non-brahmins, cause they care about the smell or what not? In that case, if the non-brahmin person is also a vegetarian, then does denying housing become wrong?”
Yes, if a brahmin denies housing to a vegetarian it is definitely casteism and wrong.
It is casteism if a brahmin/vegetarian denies housing to a non-vegetarian, when the house is independent and the owner lives elsewhere (ie he is only denying because he thinks the house is going to become ‘impure’ due to NV food). It is still casteism if he denies to a group of non-vegetarians who don’t intend to cook in the premises. But, if a vegetarian is renting a portion of his house or if the houses are quite close to each other and he doesn’t want to rent it to a non-vegetarian due to smell of cooking, then I don’t see it as casteism, irrespective of whether it is right or wrong.
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Rahini David
July 24, 2019
I just hope other people from other communities also speak out about what happens in their households so that everyone gets a true picture.
I wanted to stay away from this thread. But this seems like a very reasonable request.
As a person born in a religious-minority, I have witnessed more such wincing about other religions and other Christian denominations than about other communities. I have seen Protestants wince about Catholics. I have had a Catholic male friend speak to me with something which can be considered religious mansplaining. He is more than a decade younger than me and never spoke with that mansplaining condescending tone when discussing any other topic.
The caste preference/prejudice is still there when marriage proposals are considered. But not as much as mentioned by Madan here and some other Brahmin bloggers I have read before. Several choice marriage have happened in my family without any sort of “you want to marry into __ community?” drama, provided the other family is Protestant Christian too.
People make so many divisions and feel that these divisions make them distinct and thereby distinguished. They couldn’t be more wrong and frankly I am sick and tired of these man-made distinctions.
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therag
July 24, 2019
Madan Sir, I find your entire argument quite ridiculous. First of all, the fact that a namam wearing person should be cognizant because an innocuous symbol and a peculiar accent apparently triggers a lot of people is just nonsense. I have not seen any evidence to suggest that these symbols originated only as a way of signalling privilege although that may have been a side effect.
I am an atheist and being an atheist has nothing to do with it. It is just the sheer lunacy and longevity of the assertion that Tambrahms deserve all the blame. Apparently the brahmins were responsible for all casteist evils 50 years back. Cue 50 years of political isolation, Brahmin hatemongering, and the Brahmins are still responsible for everything. “But why can’t they talk like the rest of us huh? the normal way”. They’re grasping at straws while ignoring the elephant in the room.
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Anu Warrier
July 24, 2019
Wouldn’t your friend feel offended or discriminated against… especially if you are seen to go to other friends’ places?
I’m a pretty direct person, and I don’t say it to her as an accusation. My point is – even to her – why would I ask her to change her cooking preferences for me? I’m sure half the time she doesn’t even think about it. She probably doesn’t even taste it. But because I don’t eat meat, I can get the flavour of the beef broth she uses with her veg dishes. She’s apologetic about it but it’s not deliberate on her part. That’s just how she cooks normally.
I’ve eaten at her place a couple of times but then she was quick to tell me that she had consciously not used non-veg broth. 🙂 But then, we are good enough friends that both of us can be honest with each other, and not offended about it.
It is also because I don’t frame it as an ‘offence’ against me. I just accept that this is who she is; she accepts that this is who I am. And we can always eat out or at my place. When I host, I make it a point to ask my guests what they are allergic to/what they dislike/can’t eat for any reason. I can accommodate most preferences except perhaps for an observant Jew. I don’t keep a kosher kitchen. For that matter, perhaps the very orthodox Hindus might find it difficult to eat at my place – my vessels are not segregated, and so meat and vegetables may well be cooked in the same [washed] vessel. I wouldn’t be offended if they told me so, honestly. I can understand.
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Anu Warrier
July 24, 2019
@Madan, oh, I wasn’t arguing your point. Just wondering. Yes, I agree that for some, it is a caste marker. Like the guy who sued McDonalds because eating their fries without knowing they were cooked [then] in beef fat ‘spoiled’ his dharma. He had a priest flown over to the US to ‘purify’ him. I’m afraid I rather unkindly rolled my eyes when I read it. But then, that’s because I’m rather cynical and think he saw a way to make money.
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Madan
July 24, 2019
therag : I never said wearing a naamam by itself is wrong. I have clearly specified the examples of nutcases who do in fact wear it only to emphasize their caste superiority. I know these cases firsthand as a Brahmin and I will not back off from this argument come what may because you cannot deny my lived experience just because it infuriates you. Yes, Brahmins are not responsible for all that is wrong with TN and if you bothered to read my arguments at all before characterising them as ridiculous, you would see that in fact I tackled it and I also demolished the idea that Brahmins speaking Brahmin Tamil is somehow evil. That, again, does not give licence to Brahmins to practice casteism and wherever their behaviour is casteist, I will call it out. Call me ridiculous, call me a loony, whatever, I don’t give a shit.
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Honest Raj
July 24, 2019
There is no Hindu consciousness of kind. In every Hindu the consciousness that exists is the consciousness of his caste. That is the reason why the Hindus cannot be said to form a society or a nation.
I’ve not read Ambedkar much but man he’s spot on. It’s no wonder when some people claim ‘unity is the antithesis of Hinduism’ or ask the western converts the castes to which they’ve been assigned to post conversion. The caste system forms the very basis of the Hindu society that it comes to a standstill when the former ceases to exist. Perhaps, this was the reason why most of the modern reformers – such as Gandhi, Vivekananda and Tilak (?) – were not averse to the caste system? The idea of ‘Hindu unity’ was born not out of compassion for fellow Hindus but out of sheer insecurity. If not for the Moplah rebellion, the movements led by Savarkars, Hedgewars and Golwalkars wouldn’t have gained momentum even among a section of the orthodox Brahmins back then. In short, the Sangh Parivar must be largely grateful to the Muslim leaders of the pre-independent India.
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Honest Raj
July 24, 2019
The tendency to want to rent a house to people from the same caste while obviously castiest, should not be wrong by law, and especially through prevention of atrocities act.
As far as I’m aware, there exists no such provision; it’s absolutely legal. Are you talking about a specific incident?
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TambiDude
July 24, 2019
“Aadhy : Great post and FWIW I would say not touching tiffin box of non vegetarians is not even subtly casteist, it is blatant.”
Madan: Would you call it blatant if they don’t touch tiffin box of meat eaters even if they are brahmins. Brahmins of Bengal , Maharstra, Bihar eat meat.
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Eswar
July 25, 2019
Casteist is a very overloaded term. It is too broad and often results in focussing on non-trivial behaviours in the name of casteism. Rather than trying to fit behaviours and attributes under a tag, it is more relevant to understand if those behaviours have caused any injury.
Using a caste identifiable language doesn’t cause any harm apart from annoying some listeners. And so is using a caste identifiable marker. Doesn’t matter whether they are used with a sense of caste pride or with true meaning. The same goes with one’s food and dress choices. It simply should not matter what one wears, speak and eat. The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities. – Ayn Rand
Properties are slightly trickier. But I prefer to respect property rights over discrimination. The owners of a private property should have all the rights to decide what they should do with their property. If they chose not to let for a certain section of the society, so be it. Of course I wouldn’t have great respect for those people. But it is more important that private property rights are honoured. Ensuring fair private property rights can make a case for stronger public property rights. “Do what you want in your private space, but public space is for everyone”. A temple, it’s roads or anything that’s built with tax payer’s money cannot discriminate anyone how much ever sacred the place is. Thats ensuring public property rights.
When fighting against institutionalised malaise like caste or religion, it is important to pick the right fight. When there are bigger fish to fry, focussing on trivial stuff like language, food, name and markers distracts from more serious issues like physical violence, discrimination in public space and honour killings. This cannot be achieved by just one side making the right noises. This requires the support of like minded people from all sides. Antagonising them over trivial stuff and gross generalisation would result in them not standing up for bigger fights.
In my view, the stalwarts who fought against deeply embedded system like caste and religion, lost the battle by making gross generalisation and in trying to attack the roots. Periyar could have fought against casteism without going about attacking Brahmanism and Hinduism. I wish Ayan Hisri Ali liberated even more women without having to attack The Prophet. The moment she attacked Prophet the issues surrounding it distracted her from the real fight. I am yet to read Annihilation of Caste, but I am sure those two paragraphs posted above would have made few new enemies for Ambedkar. Pa.Ranjit referencing to Ram and Dhandakaranya in Kaala is in the same vein. His ideas and views would reach a wider audience and probably make even a bigger impact if he chooses to avoid such provocation.
I am all for getting rid of caste and religion at it roots, but that is the last step in the process. When we are done away with every other thing on which this system thrives then the tree will just die on its own. Even if it survives after that it would become irrelevant. When one is not able to discriminate another person in a public property, public service, public space, wield violence and deny opportunity in the name of caste then it doesn’t matter which caste he belongs to, what marker he wears and what dialect he speaks. But if he is able to do all of these, then mere anonymising his identity means nothing. The fight is always against the individual. When the individuals change, the system reflects the change.
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TambiDude
July 25, 2019
“I have clearly specified the examples of nutcases who do in fact wear it only to emphasize their caste superiority. ”
By that token a muslim keeping a beard or a cap should be accused of the same.
Same with kippah wearing Jew.
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TambiDude
July 25, 2019
Anu: I also take a dim view of those milking fast food joints when they are accidentally served meat. 20 yrs ago there was a case of an indian (I think his surname was Rai) who was accidentally given beef by Tacobell. He got away with quarter of a million damages. All for what? For eating meat accidentally!!!! The judge was an idiot to award that damages. Few thousands would have been OK.
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TambiDude
July 25, 2019
“Madan Sir, I find your entire argument quite ridiculous. First of all, the fact that a namam wearing person should be cognizant because an innocuous symbol and a peculiar accent apparently triggers a lot of people is just nonsense. I have not seen any evidence to suggest that these symbols originated only as a way of signalling privilege although that may have been a side effect.”
I agree. Dumeels will get their ass and career kicked by Jews if similar comments are passed in NY about Kippah wearing jews.
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TambiDude
July 25, 2019
(ie he is only denying because he thinks the house is going to become ‘impure’ due to NV food)
Do you know in US it is not illegal for you to refuse smoking tenants. Strictly speaking why no one has problems with this, but problems with those who can’t imagine meat cooked in their home.
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TambiDude
July 25, 2019
“I wear Vibuthi to my work place not to show off and to alienate myself. Sorry I don’t agree.”
As do Jews wearing Kippah. Only in a backward society like that of India will hair be split on such useless topics. In US jews will sue them and ensure that they never get employed again.
I am not even a practicing brahmin, but I got better things to do than to object someone wearing a nammam or any other religious symbol.
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therag
July 25, 2019
@Madan, well this is what I got from your posts – Wearing a namam is not a problem if you grew up wearing one, but wearing one to assert supremacy is wrong and that one should be cognizant of wearing a namam in this case. The cognizant ones are not likely to be casteist, because if they were, they wouldn’t be casteist. You are essentially saying that casteist people should try not to be casteist. Very helpful.
As for “casteist brahmins give the rest of us a bad name” – unless you have a way of isolating these sods and excommunicating them from the community or something I don’t really see what can be done. Bigots gonna be bigots. Any sufficiently sized community is bound to have a critical mass of bigots. In this case, they are relatively harmless. You can safely ignore them, or better, tell them to sod off. I’ll wager that from generation to generation, caste pride is on the wane in the Tambrahm community. It has not disappeared, it is still a work in progress, but I’d say the community is in the right general direction.
As for the Brahmin community needing to introspect and right their wrongs and not resort to whataboutism – I’d say that you were virtue signalling here but giving you the benefit of the doubt I’ll agree that the community can do a better job. They can be more inclusive and more accommodating. Except the part about whataboutism. Brahmins get an almost comically disproportionate share of the blame for casteism. Wanting some of that blame to go around to their rightful owners is not whataboutism. Note that when I say Brahmins, I refer exclusively to the Tamil Brahmin community.
The reason I said this issue with namams and language is ridiculous is that it is essentially a solved problem. If you encounter a casteist TamBrahm you can tell him go pound sand. His idea of society has been irrelevant for decades, he has zero power over policy making, and not much influence in pop culture (Carnatic music does not really count). Whenever people bring up the problem of Brahminism, they are beating a dead horse.
Most communities of a certain size are casteist. In TN, I can safely claim that the distribution of communities on a hypothetical caste-index would be bimodal – the I’ll-hack-you-to-death-because-you’re-lower-caste cluster and the non-violent-but-nevertheless-casteist cluster. Your definition of caste may vary – I even heard someone saying they were anti-caste but that all Muslims should leave the country.
Tambrahms, and probably a whole host of other castes, fall into the second cluster. Key here is that I couldn’t nail the names of these other castes. I just know they exist as this amorphous blob. I have met a lot of non-brahmins who were vehement casteists. There were all sorts of regional rivalries and disputes. This is all conjecture, but unless someone comes up with solid evidence to suggest that Tambrahms are much more casteist than almost every other community in TN, it seems fair. I have not seen any evidence to suggest that other communities are even remotely caste agnostic. From reading the news and general hearsay, I think all communities in the cluster are about the same level of casteist.
Which brings me to the point about the Dravidian hatemongering. The so-called “markers” of Brahmins are well known all over TN. The hatemongering makes people that much more sensitive to these markers. Brahmins markets are easily identified wherever they go, which means that everyone has some datapoint about casteism. And this is assuming that people are completely reasonable, and don’t pick on something like a different lingo, or a kudumi to be casteist .Does that mean the community on the whole is more casteist than average? No. The dataset is unbalanced and biased. How would you even benchmark castes and set a baseline for casteism? People seem to be going by anecdata which is biased by definition and not representative.
Is there any community in TN that people accept to not be casteist? More to the point, is there any other community in TN that has had an intense spotlight shed on it, by government diktat? In the absence of such data, It would not be unfair to claim that the Tambrahm community is no more casteist than the average community. Which is why they claim that they are unfairly targeted.
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Madan
July 25, 2019
@therag : Again, did you actually read my comments? From the beginning where I came in pushing back against Arjun? If you did, you would know that I already raised the same questions to him about Brahmin bashing, so you’re only repeating what I said. If you did not, please go and read it first. I know it can be tiresome but it is also not very convenient for me to have to explain what I already wrote again and again.
Same goes for you, TD. I don’t disagree with most of what you said but my point remains the same, don’t use the discriminatory practices of other communities to justify yours. That’s all. As for tiffin box, touching a non vegetarian’s TIFFIN BOX will not make you a non vegetarian. If you still insist that as a vegetarian, you cannot touch it, I will permit that it is not casteist though it is still silly. But if you say ayyo touching it will taint my purity as a Brahmin, that is cent per cent casteist. Doesn’t matter Brahmin of which part of India. And yes, for the last time, other communities do practice discrimination and I call them out all the time so don’t be disingenuous here. Just because I call out discrimination in our community doesn’t mean I am condoning it in others. Forget not renting out apartments to smokers, Americans screw over black people with discriminatory housing laws. Again, what does that have to do with Brahmins?
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Madan
July 25, 2019
Easwar : You say identity markers should not be a problem. What about (yes, here I come with whataboutisms) Confederate flags or KKK hoods? Is there or is there not a line we are forced to draw and recognise certain symbols as being pretty much drenched in bigotry? Modern, urban living has to involve accommodation because it puts diverse people in the same space. If everyone clings to their identity as derived from race, religion, ethnicity or caste, we will only unleash a tinderbox. Or maybe we already have. Do you know that the number one reason housing societies in Mumbai don’t give NOCs to Muslims to buy or rent out apartments is that several Muslim families insist on rearing goats (for Bakri Id) in the common verandahs? Why do they do this? Why do they place their religious orthodoxy above mutual convenience of all in the society? Of course, societies are wrong to shut Muslims out in general but why do the latter not take the initiative to reform themselves?
Colour me skeptical, but I THINK until we learn to derive identity from within and not from a tribe of birth, we are bound to hurtle into increasingly turbulent times.
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Eswar
July 25, 2019
@Madan. Even for someone with KKK’s insignia I would want to give weightage to their actions rather than what they signal. Some one can hate me to the core for who I am, and even wish I never existed, but until they act upon it, they have the right to hold that thought. This doesn’t mean I condone their thoughts, it’s only that I tolerate them a little longer until up to the point they actually act on it.
I am definitely not aware for rearing goats by Muslims. I totally agree that people should be considerate about their surroundings and make it more easier to live with different groups. What I am hoping is, that signal to reform comes from a clear, impartial public/private rules which in turn triggers a change within that group. With such rights, I could say I would not let certain practices if I am renting out a property without having to be labelled. And when there are more such signals then groups would reconsider their lifestyle choices. But if this signal is interrupted by a Govt mandate or activists broadly attacking ‘Muslims denied houses’, then I don’t see how they would change for urban living. Calling it out any other means would likely to be projected as anti-, attacking even the people who make reasoned arguments and will miss the underlying point.
Colour me skeptical, but I THINK until we learn to derive identity from within and not from a tribe of birth, we are bound to hurtle into increasingly turbulent times..
I don’t think it is skeptical. Learning to derive identify from within is the need of the hour.
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Isai
July 25, 2019
Madan, you had said “I know of Brahmins who insist on wearing choti and naamam to office even abroad in the USA. While they have the right to, they should be cognisant of what these traditions imply.” Therag, hari and Tambidude had felt that this statement of yours is wrong and so did I. You again made the statement “You say identity markers should not be a problem. What about (yes, here I come with whataboutisms) Confederate flags or KKK hoods? Is there or is there not a line we are forced to draw and recognise certain symbols as being pretty much drenched in bigotry?”
I don’t know what choti means but as far as naamam is concerned, it is used by both brahmins and non brahmins. I have seen non brahmin people of different States like UP, Bihar, Tamil Nadu wear this and have seen it worn by temple priests who are not brahmins. Also, it was not invented as a marker of brahmin supremacy (rather it was invented to mark Vishnu’s supremacy) or as a result of an environment of clashes between brahmins and non Brahmins. So, your above 2 statements would not pertain to naamam. What you had implied would suit something like this: https://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/wearing-caste-on-my-wrist-green-for-dalits-red-for-thevars/
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Madan
July 25, 2019
Isai : And if I say they should be cognisant of what it means, does that mean I am saying it is wrong? How much do you guys reach to leap to that conclusion, seriously? Show me one place, one place, where I said wearing a naamam by itself is wrong. I did not. I will insist that your intent in donning such apparel or markers matters. If you wear it to show what a superior Brahmin you are, that is casteist. Whether that form of casteism directly harms people or not is entirely besides the point. Yelling nigger at an African American doesn’t directly cause harm either.
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Isai
July 25, 2019
Madan, Hari had said “Madan my comment was on your point “they should be cognisant of what these traditions imply”. Traditionally it doesn’t imply “superiority”. If some douches/assholes/casteists feel that way, nobody can do anything about it. But it does not take away the traditional meaning from these markers.”
For which you had replied “..And what it means is derived from history, the history of our ancestors choosing to discriminate against lower castes.”
From these and other statements in this thread, I got an impression that 1) you thought naamam is worn exclusively by Brahmins and 2) you were not aware that naamam had originated in the historical period of Nammalvar, a non-brahmin widely considered as the greatest of alvars and Ramanuja who had fought against caste discrimination and hence, it is more a marker of inclusion rather than caste superiority or oppression 3) you generalised the behaviour of your relatives and assumed that people are wearing it either out of a sense of superiority or due to cultural baggage and thus ignored that it could also be worn due to a religious Inclination.
Maybe I misunderstood but since 4 people independently came to the same impression, well maybe…
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Isai
July 25, 2019
“Do you know in US it is not illegal for you to refuse smoking tenants. Strictly speaking why no one has problems with this, but problems with those who can’t imagine meat cooked in their home.”
Second hand smoke is dangerous for tenants and neighbours. Similarly, if you are refusing out of consideration for a vegetarian neighbor, I won’t call it casteism. But, if you are refusing only because you can’t imagine meat being cooked in your home, I would consider it only as an unreasonable sentiment. One may consider cooking without bathing as a sin and wouldn’t have entered the kitchen before bathing, but such sentimental restrictions cannot be put on a tenant, unless it is going to hamper the building maintenance. In these cases, it doesn’t.
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TambiDude
July 25, 2019
Madan: https://www.avaloncommunities.com/equal-housing-opportunity-communities
There is a reason why smoking based discrimination is not there. So is pet based discrimination.
In social media I have read stories of how societies in Mumbai refuse to rent to a muslim or vice versa and many of them give valid reasons. If that is OK, so can be caste based discrimination. It is not easy to argue against “it is my home and who else can decide whom I give to” logic.
Virtue Signaling in blogs looks great, but reality is different.
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Honest Raj
July 25, 2019
“By that token a muslim keeping a beard or a cap should be accused of the same. Same with kippah wearing Jew …. Only in a backward society like that of India will hair be split on such useless topics.”
Consider Kalam – inarguably the most venerated Indian of the 21st century. I really doubt whether the opinion holds good had he sported a beard, or worn a cap, or eaten beef.
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TambiDude
July 25, 2019
“Second hand smoke is dangerous for tenants and neighbours. ”
Then ban smoking, right? As long as smoking is legal, this should not be a concern.
You do realize that once if we get into this business, it is a slippery slope. What about cooking garlic?
As I said earlier, virtue signaling looks great in social media, even if it as far from reality as it can be.
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TambiDude
July 25, 2019
and what about drinking ? Can I refuse to rent out to someone who drinks.
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Madan
July 25, 2019
Isai : Accha. So what four people think I say matters more than what I REALLY say. Very well then, suit yourself. Fill in the blanks yourself and assume whatever you want my opinion to be.
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Madan
July 25, 2019
Tambi Dude: I literally just said above that housing discrimination against Muslims in Mumbai is wrong. Do you even read before putting forth your standard talking points?
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TambiDude
July 25, 2019
No I did not read it because you are everywhere and almost impossible to keep track.
That said, I appreciate your consistency.
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Isai
July 25, 2019
“Isai : Accha. So what four people think I say matters more than what I REALLY say.” I get that you REALLY say that wearing a naamam by itself is NOT wrong. But, when hari and others wrote about your ‘traditions imply’ comment, I thought you would realise that your comment could be easily interpreted that way and clarify that it was not what you had meant. But, your further comments show that you are still processing their/my comments only emotionally. Ciao.
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therag
July 25, 2019
@Madan, you say ” So what four people think I say matters more than what I REALLY say. Very well then, suit yourself.”
Well this is precisely the namam argument isn’t it? You should be more cognizant of the history of internet blogging before writing in something like that.
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Isai
July 25, 2019
“Then ban smoking, right? As long as smoking is legal, this should not be a concern.”
Legally, smoking is banned in public places in India. Even otherwise, just because something is legal, it doesn’t mean that it should not be restricted. (eg: using a Bluetooth speaker in a train). As long as you can reasonably prove that it would disturb someone.
“You do realize that once if we get into this business, it is a slippery slope. What about cooking garlic?”
Garlic or meat or beef doesn’t make any difference, IMO. The concern is smell and as long as there is no one living in the vicinity who would be disturbed, it shouldn’t be a problem.
“As I said earlier, virtue signaling looks great in social media, even if it as far from reality as it can be.”
I have had a lot of bad experiences both as a tenant and as a landlord. I think my views have evolved from these experiences. That is why I felt like responding to Varsha’s comment.
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Madan
July 25, 2019
Isai : The point is I had already given one round of clarifications to therag. If I am called upon to clarify the same damn thing again and again, I do not take it as a good faith argument. Maybe that’s harsh to other participants but I can’t help it. As I said, I appreciate that it’s not frightfully convenient to read up the entire thread but it’s also not convenient for me to answer the same question again and again. Ergo, when I am saying again and again what is it that I have said, read up what I have said earlier in the thread if you are not sure rather than ask me to re-re-clarify. What I have said is not very controversial, if at all controversial, and if that has resulted in some ruffled feathers, I cannot account for them.
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Madan
July 25, 2019
@therag: Er,no, my entire naamam argument was based on first hand testimonies given to me by other Brahmins themselves. Why should I doubt their intentions when I have it from the horse’s mouth? Again, maybe it would help to read what I have written than to take somebody else’s irate responses to me and question me about it?
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Arjun
July 26, 2019
“In my view, the stalwarts who fought against deeply embedded system like caste and religion, lost the battle by making gross generalisation and in trying to attack the roots. Periyar could have fought against casteism without going about attacking Brahmanism and Hinduism. I am yet to read Annihilation of Caste, but I am sure those two paragraphs posted above would have made few new enemies for Ambedkar. Pa.Ranjit referencing to Ram and Dhandakaranya in Kaala is in the same vein.”
What? This is the first time I am hearing the view that one must attack the symptom and not the root of a malaise!! Ambedkar and Periyar are both very clear that the Hindu religion is the source and sustenance of the caste system. Ambedkar is also very clear about the solution – leaving the Hindu religion and converting to relatively egalitarian religions like Christianity, Buddhism or even Islam. Dalits who have converted have generally fared much better than their counterparts who didn’t. Thirumavalavan wrote his doctorial thesis on exactly this – how the dalits of Meenakshipuram gained socially and economically by converting to Islam. You may also read this short essay of Ambedkar in which he argues the case for conversion.
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ambedkar/txt_ambedkar_salvation.html
Quoting from there – “It is an undisputed fact that the whole Hindu religion is the creation of the high-caste Hindus for the welfare and prosperity of the high-castes.
Society, which they call religion, has assigned you the role of the slave. So that you may not be able to escape from this slavery, every arrangement is made in the structure of the society. And that is why you are more in need of breaking the bondage of the mental slavery of this religion than is any other community. Hinduism has marred your progress from all sides. It has sacked [=devastated] your mental freedom and made you slaves. In the outer world also, it has doomed you to the condition of a slave. If you want to be free, you must change your religion. ”
“The principle of equality as taught in Christianity and Islam has no concern whatsoever with knowledge, wealth, or dress, as outward aspects. Both these religions consider a sense of humanity as the mean feature of religion. They preach that the sense of humanity should be respected by all; and none should disrespect others, none should treat others as unequals. These teachings are completely wanting in the Hindu religion. What is the use of such a religion, in which man’s sense of humanity has no value? And what is the good in clinging to it?”
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Eswar
July 27, 2019
Arjun: People have been attacking at the roots long enough. What is the combined period of Periyar, Ambedkar and his likes who tried to annihilate caste and Hinduism. 100 plus years ? Hasn’t it managed to survive? Would attacking even stronger help? If eliminating the root is going to take longer, why not mange the symptoms. This is all assuming Hindu religion is the ‘source and sustenance’ of caste system. I doubt it though.
When Periyar says Hindu religion as the perpetrator of caste, his sources are Hindu scriptures, mainly Manu, and epics like Ramayana. I haven’t read Ambedkar, but I am assuming his stance is also based on the Hindu scriptures that specifies Varnashrama. Now the question is when did Hindu religion began to exist? Did it began only with the codification of Hinduism in the form of scriptures or were people worshipping their own non-Abrahamic Gods and practices even before any of these codified? I would bet that people would have been believing in supernatural powers and rituals for a very long time before the idea of religion came into the picture.
Take the example of Tamil Nadu and look at the Gods people worship here. Apart from the Perum Deivangal Shiva and Vishnu you will find a whole lot of Siru Deivangal. The likes of Karuppannasamy, Mundakanni etc. These small Gods are likely to have pre-dated the big Gods. One reason being, the small Gods are not always Gods in the literal sense . They are likely people who died in circumstances saving a village or a community and the survivors started worshipping them for their deeds – neethaar vazhipaadu – worshipping the dead. I wonder if any of these Siru Deivangal has made into Hindu scriptures that talks about Varna. If not, then would the people who worship only these Siru Deivangal be considered as followers of Hindu religion? Why is this relevant for this conversation? The relevance is, to say that Hindu religion is the source of caste, it needs to be shown that there was no caste system before Hindu religion was known to these people. But is there evidence to show that people who worshipped small Gods, who do not fall under the modern idea of Hinduism, have not practiced caste in any of its forms?
Hinduism, as Jeyamohan says, is a collection of religions – Thogai Madham. Lack of a central authoritative body allowed Hinduism to absorb small Gods under it and kept spreading. A Hindu of the northern part of India is unlikely the same Hindu of a rural remote village of Tamil Nadu. For, whom they worship, how they worship will all be different. But both of them will consider themselves as Hindus. There was an article recently in ‘The Hindu’ newspaper about a temple in Tamil Nadu where the devotees prepare Meat Briyani as prasadham. Their religion? Is also Hindu. Would they practice caste? Very likely. Would they follow any of the Hindu scriptures? Very unlikely. Because an arm of Hindu religion has written about something, even if it is varna, it’s not necessarily taken seriously by every other arm of Hinduism. This is not to say Varnas in the scriptures would have had no role. It probably reinforced some people’s beliefs in maintaining a hierarchy. But to say rooting out Hinduism will root out caste assumes all the Hindus adhere to a single source or authority. Ask the middle castes who follow violent caste practices what scriptures they have read and believe in. The answer is likely none. Take out the scriptures, they will find another reason. Like Aanda Parambarai. The commonality between two groups practicing caste is not their religion, but the people themselves.
I am intending to read Thol.Thirumavalavan’s Amaippai Thiralvom, the book that came out of his PhD thesis. I assume that is the thesis you meant. Meanwhile I will refer you to Jeyamohan’s personal experience with one of the converted in Meenakshipuram. He makes a point how the conversion gave a sense of freedom and self respect. But only until he started looking for a marriage alliance to his children when his caste became the talking point. Of course this is one person’s account. I have also read about churches having different entries, sometimes even different churches for different caste groups. Even otherwise, there are reasons why converting to another religion does not help.
⁃ It’s obvious that Abrahamic religions are not native to this country
⁃ So if one is practicing this religion it is likely that their ancestors have converted at some point.
⁃ The reason for this conversion could be a) they developed a sense of belief in the new God owing to a miracle or some life saving event. b) for social mobility – they lacked that in their religion owing to their caste c) or for convenience — owing to marriage or other personal circumstances
⁃ For a caste fanatic, the conversion makes it easier to speculate one’s past. If one belong to a certain religion from a certain part of Tamil Nadu, they will figure out the caste. On the other hand, someone who doesn’t care about caste is going to treat them as earlier.
So at least in theory, religious conversion doesn’t make that much difference apart from a sense of avenging the former religion. Even assuming I am wrong about this, the differences and discrimination does not completely go away among the converted. The caste is traded for religion. From the position of being discriminated, they now have the potential to start differentiating in the name of religion. Marrying outside their religion or even their denomination may not be taken well. They develop a sense of closeness to their religious community. So in a way caste is replaced with religion, with most of the characteristics of the former retained. It is the people. You take them anywhere and they will carry their baggage along.
I am keen to understand on what basis Ambedkar called other religions more egalitarian. But wasn’t it under these religions, slavery was practiced in the west and killings in the Middle East? Wasn’t Buddhist Sinhalese part of the murderous Sri Lankan history? Not just against Sri Lankan Tamils, but even before that against the communist uprising?
All these point to one thing. The commonality in all these violences and hatred is not the identity itself – caste, colour or religion. It’s the underlying human nature. If there is a solution to it, it’s to respect each other and stand for each other’s rights. And as Madan pointed out, we should start looking inward to identify us. Not through were we are born and whom we worship. This way at least, our identity will be small enough and hopefully will not be capable of harming others.
—
Islamum Saathiyum – https://m.jeyamohan.in/23060
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Honest Raj
July 27, 2019
@Eswar: I’ll address this at two levels.
The caste system is more a product of the Hindu “society” than of “religion”. It’s true that a “most-backward” caste member living in a remote corner of the country – while struggling to make his ends meet – doesn’t practise casteism by reading the scriptures. Ambedkar describes caste as a “state of mind”. It gives oneself a sense of pride/superiority for no reason apart from his accidental birth into his caste. An average “Hindu” (going by Hindutva’s definition of the term in this context – all those born in India irrespective of their religion) prefers mostly to be in the middle – “Shudra mentality” as described by the Periyarists. He doesn’t mind having 10 people placed above him as long as he has another 10 below him. This is the biggest strength of the system.
As for Abrahamic religions, I’m not sure if we can “generalise” them based on the ways in which they are practised by Indian Muslims and Christians. Having said that, while it may be true that there exists a number of divisions among themselves, it should be noted that the divisions not “vertical” (unlike the Hindu caste system) in nature (at least under the ambit of “religion”). Second, the ancestors of most Muslims and Christians in India were pretty much Hindus at one point in time; their ancestors took caste along with themselves when they converted. Caste transcended religion long back. Inter-faith marriages (Hindu-Christian) are common among many Tamil castes such as Nadars and Vellalars. Or, take the case of Namboothiris (as Jeyamohan points out in the article) and some Brahmin castes among the Goan and Mangalore Catholics. They refused to shed their caste identities because it gave them some privileges. The case of Sri Lankan Tamils is a another good example (caste transcending even nation and culture). Their caste system was far more cruel and rigid than that of Indian Tamils. If not for caste, most Sri Lankan Tamils would’ve either embraced Buddhism or Christianty. Simply put, caste is a cultural phenomenon but has a “religious sanction” too. Sure, the scriptures were a product of their times but a sanction would mean they’ve always had defenders over a period of time.
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Rahul
July 27, 2019
Annihilation of Caste is available to read online and its probably not more than a 2 hour read.
Click to access aoc_print_2004.pdf
I will encourage everyone to read it.
Eswar, I will address few of your points –
a ) When Ambedkar is saying that rooting out caste system is not possible without rooting out Hinduism, he is making a rhetorical point. He does not expect Hinduism to be rooted out – but his counter is to revisionists like Gandhi who tried to propose that caste could thrive with some kind of re engineering ( the notion that the division between castes is horizontal and not vertical.)
b ) Yes, identity is still paramount even after conversion . But as Honest Raj pointed out, divisions in other religions are MOSTLY horizontal. In some cases they are vertical as well , but here is the thing. Dalits may not be looking for an ideal religion(for example they may not care if there was slavery in Islam), they will probably do whatever it takes to make their life better. Perhaps you will agree that chances of a Muslim, Christian or Buddhist wanting to know caste of a person are lower than that of a Hindu. Your standard of “differences and discrimination not completely going away” seems to be arbitrary.
c ) You seem to frown at the notion of avenging the former religion. I would think that revenge is a very valid reason. (Doesn’t it feel good?) Also, in a country that votes on lines of caste and religious identity, religious demographics can and will matter in the long run in politics.
d ) ” If there is a solution to it, it’s to respect each other and stand for each other’s right”
I do not personally know of a single person who does anything to counter caste divisions. There may be many who do not care about caste , but mostly upper castes have the tendency to close their eyes and pretend caste does not exist. My point is, caste system will\may never go away . What we can aim for is affirmative action to make sure Dalits gain enough power to form an equitable society and/ or they will figure out themselves through conversions and \ or political maneuvering. If upper castes feel butt hurt about conversions or affirmative action then so be it.
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Eswar
July 28, 2019
Honest Raj: That’s fantastically articulated. Totally agree that Caste system transcends religion. Religion everywhere is a product of its time and people. It is because of the transcending nature of these identities, I feel the need to look beyond religion to fight against something like caste.
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Honest Raj
July 28, 2019
@Eswar: I see that you’d covered most points 🙂 – I was skimming through your comment over my phone. Anyways, the point which I was trying to make: if not for the caste system, Hinduism wouldn’t have survived for this long.
I am keen to understand on what basis Ambedkar called other religions more egalitarian. But wasn’t it under these religions, slavery was practiced in the west and killings in the Middle East? Wasn’t Buddhist Sinhalese part of the murderous Sri Lankan history? Not just against Sri Lankan Tamils, but even before that against the communist uprising?
I think by “Hinduism”, Ambedkar and Periyar referred to the Vedic religion. It’s almost a sin to assume that the Vedic Hinduism never had an impact on the mainstream society. As pointed out by Isai, the “Oorcheri” system has been in existence ever since (or perhaps much before?) the era of Raja Raja Chola. The kings must have most likely followed the religion which appealed to them the most or which benefited them the most. Given, people were obliged to follow the religion of the king, it’s safe to assume that religion had a huge impact on the society.
The passage which Arjun has quoted above seems to be an excerpt from Ambedkar’s speech at the Mahar conference held in Bombay in 1930. His views on Islam had definitely changed over a period of time. In one of the chapters in his Pakistan or Partition of India (1945), he highlights that, “the Muslim Society is even more full of social evils than Hindu Society is” He made a comparative study of every major religion before finally choosing to embrace Buddhism in the 1950s.
About slavery in the West and Middle-East, I’m not sure if it’s a fair comparison. It might have happened in the name of religion, but it never had a “sanction”. Even the bloody history of Sri Lanka (obviously, I’m talking about the period after the Chola invasion), has more to do with language/race rather than religion.
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Eswar
July 28, 2019
Arjun/Rahul: You both make some very valid points. I will try to elaborate on a couple of things.
I agree that the differences in other religions are broadly horizontal i.e in the sense the different denominations are probably not looked up or down to the point of denying opportunities like in a caste system. I said differences exist because, one still operates within their denomination when it comes to especially marriage. And in some cases it becomes violent in the name of non-believers or belonging to a different clan. What is better though is the fluidity to move between these denominations, at least in Christianity. I believe this is a bit more rigid even in case of Indian Muslims. With respect to caste might not be a point of contention in these religions, I don’t know If this is always the case. And importantly if it is because of the nature of the religion. I am wondering if people who don’t consider Caste in Christianity or Islam would have considered caste if they were Hindus.
This is where the religious sanction that Honest Raj pointed out comes to play. The Varnas in Hindu scriptures provides a convenient excuse. Since this excuse is not available in other religions, serious practitioners might find it difficult to practice caste as it would mean transgressing their religious dogma. But then isn’t it in the nature of people to conveniently follow religious ideas that works for them and ignore ideas that they do not agree with?
I also agree with the influence of Vedic system that Honest Raj pointed out. I think British used it as a reference not just to understand the social hierarchy but also in pronouncing judgements in cases related to caste status. A modern day influence is how the castes who oppose Vedas, Brahmanism and Brahmins still want Brahmin priests to conduct their weddings, house warming ceremonies and other ceremonies.
The reference I made to violences in West, Middle East and Sri Lanka was not to imply that they happened under the name of religion, at least not all of them. But to illustrate that people in any religion are capable of playing these out. Obviously I didn’t elaborate it. My bad.
Btw, Rahul, I didn’t imply to frown upon avenging the former religion. I don’t know if my choice of words came across like that. Though personally I would prefer these people to disown all religions. I have problems with every religion, so even if one wants to believe in a God, I would recommend them to consider skipping the shim called religion and deal directly with their God of preference.
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Rahul
July 28, 2019
“But then isn’t it in the nature of people to conveniently follow religious ideas that works for them and ignore ideas that they do not agree with?”
Sure, but caste-ism is manifested on two levels, individual and community. If an individual is picking and choosing to be caste-ist , firstly its impact will be less than in those societies where community is sanctioning caste-ism. Secondly, the caste-ism by individuals has more chances to go down towards subsequent generations of the converted.
Another point that I had made earlier as well, was that even if conversion can help get rid of caste-ism even partially then also it is enough incentive to convert. If you have a malady then you do not suffer waiting for a medicine that will cure it completely, you will take a medicine that provides some relief.
” I would recommend them to consider skipping the shim called religion and deal directly with their God of preference.”
This is your privilege that Dalits do not have. I believe if and when they are living in a caste free society they can think about these things. Till then they will choose the God and Religion that helps them deal.
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TambiDude
July 28, 2019
Arjun: I liked your last message, even though I don’t agree with it 100%. I have a question.
Throughout recorded history, when a group of people are oppressed, either they revolt or find some other solution to their oppression. In case of India, the % of Dalits never changed. The most glaring example is the Islamic rule. Even at that time the % of Dalits remain unchanged in areas managed by Moghuls directly. If Dalits never felt comfortable leaving Hinduism even when ruled by a muslim ruler, what does it tell. Further if you look at the surname majority of Indian muslims or Pak/BD muslims are not from former Dalit caste, but from upper caste. Did Ambedkar ever try to explain this anomaly ?
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Isai
July 29, 2019
“Dalits may not be looking for an ideal religion(for example they may not care if there was slavery in Islam), they will probably do whatever it takes to make their life better…If upper castes feel butt hurt about conversions or affirmative action then so be it.”
Well said, Rahul. +1
“Perhaps you will agree that chances of a Muslim, Christian or Buddhist wanting to know caste of a person are lower than that of a Hindu.” I think people are curious to know caste of another person due to the following reasons:
a) To see if they belong to the same caste
b) To see where the other person is, relative to them in the caste hierarchy. This again is done for 2 reasons b1) They may judge you based on the hierarchy or b2) They may believe that others judge them on the basis of the hierarchy and hence knowing your caste will help them in processing/rationalising your behaviour towards them.
Some people like Seeman say as a compliment towards brahmins that brahmins were the only group who never asked them about their caste (The neenga enna aalunga question). But looking at the reasons mentioned above, it is obvious that as brahmins are in the top of the hierarchy, they would only be curious about whether the other person is a brahmin or not and if not, the actual caste of that person is not of much relevance to them. Hence, they don’t deserve this complement. Similarly, for Muslims or Christians, religion replaces or supplements caste in a) above. b2) is not of much relevance to them since they are more likely to believe that people are judging them for their religion. Again, b1) people may instead judge other people on their religion. The only litmus test IMO is when Muslims or Christians meet other people of the same religion, denomination. That is when you can determine if they have shedded or retained their caste consciousness. AFAIK, this consciousness/curiosity or even discrimination increases as one moves from urban to rural places, not unlike what is happening within Hinduism. So, I think if say people of all castes in a village convert, there is not going to be much improvement in shedding of caste consciousness (especially since Islam or Christianity or even Buddhism did not originate as an antidote to caste unlike say Lingayat). The advantage that dalits may get out of conversion is that being economically disadvantaged and a numerical minority, they can hope that upon converting, their shared religious identity will help secure the support of other christians/muslims in their fight against the oppression of dominant hindu castes. But, the problem is that other religious groups are not inherently antagonistic towards the dominant hindu castes. Some of them may have converted from the dominant castes and still retain their caste affinity. Even otherwise, these religions are strongly guided by power seeking men who want people from all castes, including the dominant castes to convert and hence their support to dalits will decrease as and when they see a bigger opportunity to convert the numerically superior dominant castes (not unlike the legal firms which ditch an existing smaller client for representing the client’s bigger competitor). That is why conversion is not becoming an easy solution for dalits and perhaps that’s why I guess Ambedkar didn’t convert to an existing religion.
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Isai
July 29, 2019
“I would think that revenge is a very valid reason. (Doesn’t it feel good?)”
The desire for revenge is quite understandable. The question is how do we find a ‘safe’ outlet to vent this pent up frustration? Especially when the source of the problem is not easily and conclusively identifiable. (ie how exactly caste originated or why some people were deemed as untouchables.) So, when Ranjith breaks a pillaiyar idol in Kaala, the emotional mind understands his frustration but the rational mind thinks that there is no direct/well established connection between pillaiyar and oppression of dalits and hence determines his action as wrong.
“Also, in a country that votes on lines of caste and religious identity, religious demographics can and will matter in the long run in politics.”
A political calculation is dalits + muslims population = 40%, a vote percentage usually sufficient to emerge as the ruling party. Ranjith seems to believe in this combination. That is why I think we saw those scenes in Kaala, reinforcing the dalit-muslim unity. Even Thiruma’s PhD thesis also points in this direction.
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Eswar
July 29, 2019
Rahul: If an individual believes that conversion will alleviate their pain even partially, then that’s what they should do. After all, Gods and Religions have been created only to manage pain in life. If a God or religion is making life only more painful then why not try something else.
Regarding your last point, What is the privilege you mean that they require to denounce religion? If you say it is their poverty that stops them thinking about religion then I would agree. If you say it is their caste preventing them to think beyond religion, then I doubt it. Sure caste and poverty are linked among some of these groups. But not always.
Unrelated to the above points, another reason why many of these people don’t convert is: they are likely to love and fear their Gods like any other believers. To denounce or swap these Gods like a coat would create a sense of betrayal for them. Apart from the fear of incurring their God’s wrath.
And then there is also reservation status. I suppose Dalit Christians would fall under BC category instead of SC? Or has this been changed? Of course this is unlikely to play in the minds of remote rural communities who might not be aware of the consequences. But other politically aware groups are likely to be conscious of this. I am not implying anything negative about it but just making an observation.
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Arjun
July 29, 2019
@Tambidude : “Even at that time the % of Dalits remain unchanged in areas managed by Moghuls directly. If Dalits never felt comfortable leaving Hinduism even when ruled by a muslim ruler, what does it tell.”
That Mughal rule was nowhere near as oppressive on Hinduism as Hindutva followers portray? That Islamic rule was mostly a collaborative venture between invaders and upper castes is quite well established. Ambedkar remarked that villages were the den of casteism, and historians have pointed out that Mughals had little control over rural areas which were autonomous for all practical purposes. This is the reason why even today the Muslim population is higher in cities compared to villages. As for the British, after 1857, they too decided to follow a policy of non-interference with regard to the practice of “religion”. And it is an open secret that various kshatriya feudal dynasties and brahmins, especially in Tamil Nadu were eager bootlickers of Brits and happy to serve as their clerks and peons while lording over the lower castes.
“Throughout recorded history, when a group of people are oppressed, either they revolt or find some other solution to their oppression.”
Ambedkar in AOC: “Why have the mass of people tolerated the social evils to which they have been subjected? There have been social revolutions in other countries of the world. Why have there not been social revolutions in India, is a question which has incessantly troubled me. There is only one answer which I can give, and it is that the lower classes o f Hindus have been completely disabled for direct action on account of this wretched Caste System. They could not bear arms, and without arms they could not rebel. They were all ploughmen—or rather, condemned to be ploughmen—and they never were allowed to convert their ploughshares into swords. They had no bayonets, and therefore everyone who chose, could and did sit upon them. On account of the Caste System, they could receive no education. They could not think out or know the way to their salvation. They were condemned to be lowly; and not knowing the way of escape, and not having the means of escape, they became reconciled to eternal servitude, which they accepted as their inescapable fate.”
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Arjun
July 29, 2019
As regards the lame excuse of “oh but there is caste in Islam and Christianity also”, Ambedkar has also addressed this in AOC better than any of us could. Seriously, almost all the usual talking points of the apologists are dealt with in AOC or other works of Ambedkar.
Read section 19 of AOC – [Caste among Hindus is not the same as “caste” among nonHindus http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/mmt/ambedkar/web/readings/aoc_print_2004.pdf
I quote below: (Apologies for the long copy paste)
“In considering this question, you must at the outset bear in mind that nowhere is human society one single whole. It is always plural. In the world of action, the individual is one limit and society the other. Between them lie all sorts of associative arrangements of lesser and larger scope—families, friendships, co-operative associations, business combines, political parties, bands of thieves and robbers. These small groups are usually firmly welded together, and are often as exclusive as castes. They have a narrow and intensive code, which is often anti-social. This is true of every society, in Europe as well as in Asia. The question to be asked in determining whether a given society is an ideal society is not whether there are groups in it, because groups exist in all societies.”
“The questions to be asked in determining what is an ideal society are: How numerous and varied are the interests which are consciously shared by the groups? How full and free is the interplay with other forms of associations? Are the forces that separate groups and classes more numerous than the forces that unite them? What social significance is attached to this group life?”
“If we apply these considerations to castes among Mohammedans, Sikhs, and Christians on the one hand, and to castes among Hindus on the other, you will find that caste among Non-Hindus is fundamentally different from caste among Hindus. First, the ties which consciously make the Hindus hold together are non existent, while among NonHindus there are many that hold them together. The strength of a society depends upon the presence of points of contact, possibilities of interaction, between different groups which exist in it. These are what Carlyle calls “organic filaments”— i.e., the elastic threads which help to bring the disintegrating elements together and to reunite them. There is no integrating force among the Hindus to counteract the disintegration caused by caste. While among the Non-Hindus there are plenty of these organic filaments which bind them together.”
“But there is also a third and a more important one. Caste among the non-Hindus has no religious consecration; but among the Hindus most decidedly it has. Among the Non-Hindus, caste is only a practice, not a sacred institution. They did not originate it. With them it is only a survival. They do not regard caste as a religious dogma. Religion compels the Hindus to treat isolation and segregation of castes as a virtue. Religion does not compel the Non-Hindus to take the same attitude towards caste. If Hindus wish to break caste, their religion will come in their way. But it will not be so in the case of Non-Hindus. It is, therefore, a dangerous delusion to take comfort in the mere existence of caste among Non Hindus, without caring to know what place caste occupies in their life and whether there are other “organic filaments” which subordinate the feeling of caste to the feeling of community. The sooner the Hindus are cured of this delusion, the better”
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Honest Raj
July 29, 2019
If Dalits never felt comfortable leaving Hinduism even when ruled by a muslim ruler, what does it tell.
It tells that the Subcontinent has mostly been a Hindu society.
The story of Mohammad Yousuf (Youhana) makes it clear how the caste system is deeply ingrained in the Indian (Subcontinent) psyche. I grew up watching the Youhana and still remember the controversies surrounding his conversion (to Islam) at the peak of his career. A few years ago, another version of the story (on his conversion) floated around the internet. That Youhana was a Dalit Christian and he reportedly faced discrimination while growing up in a Lahore neighbourhood. Despite him becoming rich and counted among the modern-day greats, the attitude of his neighbours towards his family never seemed to have changed. It was alleged that the main reason behind his conversion was to overcome the social stigma.
The Dalits (Hindus and Christian converts) in Pakistan are being discriminated not just by the Muslims but also by the upper caste Hindu brethren (who form less than two percent of Pakistan’s population):
https://www.firstpost.com/world/for-pakistans-dalit-christians-embracing-islam-is-an-escape-from-stigma-1338639.html
https://archive.nepalitimes.com/regular-columns/look-out/Yousuf-Youhana-to-Mohammad-Yousuf,227
About Dalit-Muslim unity, the idea was born long ago – even before the independence. The brain behind the alliance, Jogendra Nath Mandal, had a horrible time in Pakistan before coming back to India. This kind of consolidation will never work in a country like India (especially in the South).
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TambiDude
July 29, 2019
“That Mughal rule was nowhere near as oppressive on Hinduism as Hindutva followers portray?”
Hello sir you are missing the point. I am not talking about forced conversion. I am talking about voluntary conversion which does not count as oppression.
[ besides, your above statement is a topic for another day ]
If Dalits were so offended by the wretched caste system, they could have easily converted to Islam during Islamic rule. Ideally by the end of Islamic rule, there should have been no dalit left in India.
What happened in Meenkashipuran in 1980s could not have happened in 1580 in India !!!!.
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vinjk
July 29, 2019
“If Dalits were so offended by the wretched caste system, they could have easily converted to Islam during Islamic rule. Ideally by the end of Islamic rule, there should have been no dalit left in India.”
(this logic is like Americans said they will move to Canada of trump becomes president.)
Is it that easy to change one’s religion, especially when that forms a person’s entire support system?
Plus, why should they leave? Most people ,even the oppressed , believe this religion is theirs and will fight for it
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sanjana
July 29, 2019
“What happened in Meenkashipuran in 1980s could not have happened in 1580 in India !!!!”
One explanation could be that muslim rulers were interested in converting only warrior castes to humiliate them and get future warriors. IMO. And others might have got converted by local muslim leaders. In those times, conversion could not have been that voluntary. Some might have converted to escape tax on kafirs.
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Arjun
July 29, 2019
“Hello sir you are missing the point. I am not talking about forced conversion. I am talking about voluntary conversion which does not count as oppression”
And I stated one reason above, viz it was Hindu upper castes that controlled the villages rather than Mughal Subedars. What is your theory? That the caste system was benevolent in 1590? That is contrary to all known historical records.
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TambiDude
July 29, 2019
“That the caste system was benevolent in 1590? That is contrary to all known historical records.”
No you should try to prove that the caste system was oppressive during Islamic rule as it is now. Otherwise it will be a curious case of oppressed people missing a chance to get out of wretched Hindu religion when Abrahamic religion already got its foot in India.
The history belted out by Christian Evangelists and Islamic mullahs is that wherever their religion spread, it was all due to voluntary conversion to a superior religion because of tyranny and injustice of their native religion. So what happened here?
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TambiDude
July 29, 2019
““If Dalits were so offended by the wretched caste system, they could have easily converted to Islam during Islamic rule. Ideally by the end of Islamic rule, there should have been no dalit left in India.””
“(this logic is like Americans said they will move to Canada of trump becomes president.)”
I am only using the logic used by Christian evangelists and mullahs to justify wiping out of every native religion in Latin America, Africa, Aus/NZ, parts of Asia. THey all claim that people
converted out of their native religion to escape from blah blah blah.
Hmm. except Dalits, eh?
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Honest Raj
July 29, 2019
If Dalits were so offended by the wretched caste system, they could have easily converted to Islam during Islamic rule. Ideally by the end of Islamic rule, there should have been no dalit left in India.
The Mughals never ruled the whole of India (at least for very long). Tamil Nadu hardly ever suffered from Islamic invasion (except for a brief period under the Madurai Sultanate). Plus, the Dalits (like Brahmins) are not a homogeneous social group.
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TambiDude
July 29, 2019
Is anyone keeping track of Dalit beating and killings by muslims happening in today’s hindutva’s india. Hindu treatment of Dalits has been terrible, no doubt. Muslim treatment of dalits, even more violent. But learning this can do some serious damage to narrative to award whapsi brigade.
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vinjk
July 30, 2019
@TambiDude So you think all Christian missionaries are converting to help people out of their miseries? Get real Dude!
There are some genuinely compassionate people out there but most are very class and money conscious. In fact, priests boast about how his church members are all high flying members of society.
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vinjk
July 30, 2019
“The history belted out by Christian Evangelists and Islamic mullahs is that wherever their religion spread, it was all due to voluntary conversion …”
Yes…most of it is voluntary in the sense they don’t hold a gun to their head. Evangelists give a lot of incentives to make this switch…money, food, jobs…
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Arjun
August 1, 2019
@Tambidude: I’ll grant you your arguments are not entirely without merit. So I am curious what is your hypothesis then? Why didnt most dalits convert during the heyday of the mughals?
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TambiDude
August 1, 2019
Arjun
Historically caste system was more varna. The profession was divided based on caste and Dalits had their role as cobbler, butcher etc. There was no tension or conflict between caste as they were not competing for resources as they are now. Brahmins were doing religious stuff which was as useless at that time in productivity as it is now. They were mostly surviving on grants by the kings. I am not saying that dalits were treated better. They were still considered as the lowest and that born out of asshole crap and were treated with contempt. But were mostly left alone and dalits too, while unhappy at the treatment, felt no compulsion to leave the religion. The caste loyalty was above religion and nation. This reason alone saved India from 100% conversion, as even when one caste converted, others continued as if nothing happened to them. Now compare this to any other country where Islam wiped out native religion within no time. In other words caste system saved India from Islam. It may sound completely ridiculous , but it is.
The atrocious treatment you are seeing is a recent phenomenon where they are competing for upward mobility , like education. Now they are in conflict with the upper caste. This is what Ambedkar saw.
So in summary, while agreeing that treatment of Dalits has its origin in Hinduism and they have every right to be angry with it (like Ambedkar), I disagree that treatment of them was always the same (as we are seeing now).
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Arjun
August 2, 2019
Tambidude: , I am not convinced by this, but you’ve raised some interesting points that need more exploration. Specifically I’m curious if there are any historical references as to the state of lower castes at the time and the efforts of sufis and missionaries to wean them away from Hinduism. Hindus as such have a very poor sense of history and never bothered to maintain records, so we have to rely on the writings of Muslim or european historians/travellers of the time.
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Madan
August 2, 2019
TD: That’s certainly part of it. The other thing is the Mughals, like the Brits after them, were smart and saw the value of divide and rule. As long as money flowed from the Rajputs or the Marathas in the form of Treaties, they were happy not to absolutely annihilate them and let the kingdoms be in terms of everyday operations. This allowed Hinduism to survive. There’s no saying what would have happened had every Hindu been given an option between death and conversion. But it never got to that because India, even then, was simply too vast to conquer in that way. Aurangzeb attempted total annihilation and ended up blowing his empire fatally. The Sultanate too never got enough power to attempt total annihilation and if I am not mistaken, their high watermark too was under the similarly despotic Khilji. Untouchability was a problem throughout the medieval times but before the French revolution, nobody thought mobility for the downtrodden could ever happen. If low caste Indians were condemned to misery for life, so too were the peasants and artisans of the Tudor age in Europe. Class had roughly the same effect there as caste in India. In England, your class is exclusively derived from your occupation and not your wealth. I don’t see that as fundamentally different from a caste system. As you say, it was in fact the opportunity for upward mobility now available to lower castes that created and creates tensions between them and the upper caste.
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Isai
August 2, 2019
Stumled upon this article while googling about Arjun and TambiDude’s discussion:
https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/dalit-muslims/216144
Found it to be very relevant today and then saw that it was written 17 years ago:
“By getting involved in sensational issues such as the preservation of the minority character of the Aligarh Muslim University, Urdu, Muslim Personal Law or Babri Masjid, Muslims were prevented from focussing on substantial issues such as educational advancement and economic and social progress. In this the Hindutva forces, which do not want to see Muslims progress, and the traditional Muslim leadership, which wants to maintain its hegemony and control over the community, seem to be acting in tandem with each other, playing on emotional issues and diverting the attention of the Muslim masses from issues of vital importance.”
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TambiDude
August 2, 2019
“Treaties, they were happy not to absolutely annihilate them and let the kingdoms be in terms of everyday operations. This allowed Hinduism to survive. There’s no saying what would have happened had every Hindu been given an option between death and conversion. ”
Well there is one issue in this. Some parts of Hindu India, what is today known as Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh were converted 75%+ while those parts which are today Rajasthan, UP etc predominantly remained Hindu. Rajasthan, even after being ruled by muslims for centuries remained less than 10% muslims and none of them from lower caste. IOW voluntary conversion happened among aristocrats, in direct conflict with the claim that the majority converted to escape casteism.
Ambedkar’s view on Islam is less known than his views on Hinduism. I
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Madan
August 2, 2019
“Some parts of Hindu India, what is today known as Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh were converted 75%+ while those parts which are today Rajasthan, UP etc predominantly remained Hindu. ” – Depends which parts though and which countries. As late as the partition, Lahore for instance still had a substantial Hindu population. The proportion of Hindus was as much higher in Bangladesh prior to partition. Afghanistan was a separate other case where the Mauryas were weakened by having to resist Alexander the great. When the Sultans finally annexed Afghanistan, Hindu control over the region had already been substantially weakened.
“IOW voluntary conversion happened among aristocrats, in direct conflict with the claim that the majority converted to escape casteism.” – Of course and I don’t believe that I disputed that at least w.r.t medieval times. It was Ambedkar who propounded the idea of conversion out of Hinduism to escape the evils of caste discrimination. But he did not approve of Islam either (which is what I guess you were trying to type) and advocated conversion to Buddhism. Conversion to Islam or Christianity with monetary or other inducements is largely a post independence phenomenon.
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TambiDude
August 2, 2019
“As late as the partition, Lahore for instance still had a substantial Hindu population. ”
Why restrict to Lahore only? In Pak Punjab Hindus and Sikhs were about 23% before they were almost wiped out. Whole of that area what is now known as Pak, was about %13-15, inline with my claim.
Yes I was about to type how contemptuously Ambedkar treated Islam.
Arjun: During the partition riots, Dalits in Pak were assured that they will be left untouched since they were the designated toilet cleaners. The terms choorah and bhangi are used much more in Pak than India. Even majority of Pak christians are designated toilet cleaners. Some govt job ads in Pak specify that the janitor job is reserved for non muslims only.
Anyone who thinks Islam treats Dalits better needs to get his/her head examined.
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Madan
August 3, 2019
“Why restrict to Lahore only? In Pak Punjab Hindus and Sikhs were about 23% before they were almost wiped out. Whole of that area what is now known as Pak, was about %13-15, inline ” – I wasn’t restricting to Lahore only. I only said Lahore in particular used to be religiously diverse. The point is, a good chunk of the Hindu population did survive the Mughal invasion or that of the Sultanate before it. And this is even though Pak and beyond were always more vulnerable to Islamic onslaught being on the Northwest side. This is historically borne out too by relatively less influence of Mughals or other Muslim rulers in South-Central-Western India (or south of the Vindhyas).
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Arjun
August 3, 2019
Tambidude: “Anyone who thinks Islam treats Dalits better needs to get his/her head examined.”
Now you’re again deliberately obfuscating the issue. The question is not how Islam treats “Hindu dalits”, but whether compared to upper caste hindus, dalits who convert to islam are treated relatively better by other muslims. And the answer is an overwhelming yes. I already copy pasted Ambedkar’s view on this topic earlier – that Muslims look down upon dalits, but ONLY BECAUSE the upper caste hindus do –
“You have no status at all. To say that the Hindus alone do not pay you any respect is only a half-truth. Not only the Hindus, but the Muslims and the Christians too, consider you the lowliest of the lowly. In fact, the teachings of Islam and Christianity do not create the sense of high and low. Then why do the followers of these two religions treat you as low? Because the Hindus consider you as the lowest of the low, the Muslims and Christians also consider you likewise. ”
As to “Hindus and Sikhs being wiped out during partition”, this is a typical partial truth straight from the sanghi playbook . Ethnic cleansing and atrocities occurred on both sides during partition. If you say Lahore had 23% Hindu/Sikh population, well guess what, Jalandhar and Ludhiana and parts of Haryana had a substantial muslim population too. Jammu was majority muslim. In fact many studies suggest that the scale of violence was worse on the Indian side. In any case, it would appear that these days, Punjabis on both sides of the border want to forget the parition horror and move on. Except internet sanghis (mostly brahmins) who want to keep passions iniflamed at zero personal cost. There was an article in caravan magazine on this very topic after the Pulwama attack –
“Urban upper-castes driving Hindutva nationalism have little representation among Pulwama’s slain jawans”
https://caravanmagazine.in/caste/urban-upper-castes-driving-hindutva-nationalism-little-representation-pulwama-jawans
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TambiDude
August 3, 2019
“Ethnic cleansing and atrocities occurred on both sides during partition.”
Aha the secular brigade spoke. There was bad guys on both sides.
The killings was started by muslims first and there was absolutely no response until Jul-Aug 1947. It was Sikhs who decided to give it back to them and boy they did hit them back with ferocity muslims never expected. Hindus/Sikhs in Pak Punjab had every thing to lose by migrating out since economically they were dominating. They were wiped out because of threat. Thanks to Gandhi and Nehru brand of non violence, Hindus did not retaliate even after hearing scores of horror stories. But Sikhs are of different breed.
Millions of muslims of UP and Bihar escaped this mayhem.
In Independent India the only state where ethnic cleansing has happened with 100% success is Kashmir. You know who is majority there ?
ps: Do you want more details of the time line of partition riots ?
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Isai
August 3, 2019
Arjun, the Caravan article suggests that people from communities lacking resources and social security (say ‘distressed’ communities) are forced to take such risky jobs like CRPF. Makes sense.
But, then out of 40 slain soldiers, 3 are brahmins, which is 7.5%. I have seen no study that claimed that brahmins are above 5.5%. According to the logic of the article, brahmins seem to be more than distressed than the general population. Similarly, considering that there was only 1 Muslim and 0 Christian, these communities seem to be much less distressed when compared to the general population. Even if you consider the general category (including Sikhs), 8 were slain which is 20%, which seems to be more than their percentage of population. So, I really don’t get the caste angle projected by the article. Can you clarify?
I think that people who don’t have friends & relatives working in the border (a majority of urban middle+ class) are less likely to worry about casualties and hence will be more belligerent. But, I don’t get the caste angle, especially considering the facts given by this article.
(I am not even going into how jawans from 1 vehicle may not be an accurate representation of the entire CRPF)
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hari
August 5, 2019
Read – https://www.firstpost.com/long-reads/in-tamil-nadu-anatomy-of-a-caste-crime-families-devastated-by-honour-killings-speak-of-the-scourge-7033391.html
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Isai
July 2, 2020
An interesting comparison on caste systems of India and America:
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