H Vinoth’s biggest accomplishment is the air of restraint. He doesn’t amplify the volume and “mass”-ify Pink. He respects the source material.
Spoilers ahead…
You can read the full review on Film Companion, here: https://www.filmcompanion.in/nerkonda-paarvai-movie-review-ajith-baradwaj-rangan-shradha-srinath/
Reviewing H Vinoth’s previous outing, Theeran Adhigaaram Ondru, I wrote: The thing to note about DSP Theeran (Karthi) is that he’s a realistic cop — at least to the extent that a big-budget Tamil film, with a big hero, will allow for realism. You could say the same about Bharath Subramanian (Ajith Kumar), the protagonist of Vinoth’s Pink remake, Nerkonda Paarvai: he’s a realistic lawyer — at least to the extent that a big-budget Tamil film, with a much bigger hero, will allow for realism. There’s no fanfare when the star’s name appears in the opening credits. Even his reveal is subdued — we see Bharath in a hoodie, shot from behind. And when the camera swings around, we see a tired, middle-aged man with a thick white beard and whiter hair. Still, he’s not… ordinary. Sitting on a park bench, he stares hard at a jogger, Meera (Shraddha Srinath) — it’s the nerkonda paarvai of the title. (He’s bipolar.) A little later, he flashes that stare again at a hospital attendant, who backs away in fear. The stare says: “This is not Veeram or Viswasam, but I’m still ‘mass’ and don’t you forget it!”.
Continued at the link above.
Copyright ©2019 Film Companion.
Baradwaj Rangan 
Sri Prabhuram
August 6, 2019
I thought the same after I saw that “mass” fight scene at the end of the trailer. Thank goodness that didn’t happen.
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Sri Prabhuram
August 6, 2019
Also, did you see it a press screening?
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shaviswa
August 6, 2019
Looking forward to watching this. Is this A-rated? or UA?
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shaviswa
August 6, 2019
https://twitter.com/TrollywoodV5/status/1158732259991572480?s=20
Ivangala thirutha mudiyaathu paa!!! Kashtam! ennatha solli puriya vekka. Clearly they did not understand the central theme of the film.
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Sri Prabhuram
August 7, 2019
UA
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Siva
August 7, 2019
#DejaVu
Our m in mc² guy seems have some additional shades of gray 😉
Logan
NP (not to be confused with the initialism for National Permit 😛 )
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Siva
August 7, 2019
shaviswa: ” Ivangala thirutha mudiyaathu paa!!! Kashtam! ennatha solli puriya vekka. Clearly they did not understand the central theme of the film. ”
Perhaps a workshop on the meaning of the word consent (or the word ஒப்புதல் — for their convenience) could help? I doubt IF it might offer any help, though.
Because in their moral policing dictionary, all consensual engagements of an outgoing woman — be it sex, partying, dating or even casual flirting — have only one definition: whoring. After all, this comes from the same progressive(!) people, whose definition of sexy dressing = invitation to rape.
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thoo
August 7, 2019
This is why I inwardly laugh and cry when they call TN and Kerala progressive. Woman had consensual sex = anyone can make her have sex with them cos slut. Woman dresses in a way I don’t like = i can do anything to her cos slut. Rapist = culture preserver. aambala singam da
Idellam oru culture. Idukku oru preservation. please watch one episode of neeya naana to understand average Tamil man’s progressiveness. Sample debate topics: “should women be allowed to ride two wheelers”, “should women show gethu like men”, “should women wear thaali” – oh wait, they scrapped this ep cos title too controversial even to think about. In all of the debates, a bunch of women will vociferously support the men, cos internalised misogyny.
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praneshp
August 7, 2019
Hey thoo, Kerala I understand, but does anyone call Tamil Nadu progressive? It’s no haryana, but if anyone is calling it progressive on an objective scale I’ll try a bit of what they are smoking.
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thoo
August 7, 2019
The harassment I faced in my time in Kerala was far worse than anything I’ve faced in Tamil Nadu.
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vinjk
August 7, 2019
Kerala is not progressive. The more regressive you are in your thoughts, the more respect you will get. Topics like ‘should women wear leggings?’ is considered a worthy topic for TV debates. F*cking morons!
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praneshp
August 7, 2019
@thoo:that’s my impression too, based on what my mildly-keralite wife tells me. I wanted to focus on the tn part because I lived there for a few years.
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Rahini David
August 7, 2019
One wonders what “should women show gethu like men” even means.
What is the general procedure and could you link the show if you can find it?
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thoo
August 7, 2019
Rahini, I would like to link you up but I happened to see these on YouTube due to it’s algo recommendations and went down a rabbit hole a while ago. It would be a chore finding them, if they still exist. I do know the show is on hotstar, however, should you want to watch.
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Isai
August 7, 2019
@Praneshp: Can you explain the ‘objective scale’ that you had used to say that Tamil Nadu is not progressive? Because as far as social reforms are concerned, Tamil Nadu has done better than most other states IMHO. Of course, there would be many things that one would like to change, but if you compare the states on facts, I think TN would be well above average.
@thoo: Can you please share the episode numbers or weblinks for the debate topics (bike/gethu) that you mentioned. I think you have misunderstood the title.
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Honest Raj
August 7, 2019
TN and Kerala (in fact the whole of South) are highly progressive by ‘Indian standards’.
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silverambrosia
August 7, 2019
I haven’t seen this movie, its Hindi original, or much Tamil cinema generally but the review, as well as some of the comments, seem to imply that people who are socially conservative, are OK with women being harassed and assaulted if they dress and act in a particular way. That is a crude generalisation/assumption to make.
I’m sure there are people who think that women who smoke/drink/party and then get sexually assaulted were “asking for it”. Honour killings are the ugliest by-product of that kind of warped mentality. Pointing this out is different from suggesting that cultural conservatives are broadly a bunch of rape apologists. The ‘me too’ movement has shown that men and women who like to advertise their woke credentials, and project themselves as champions of female-empowerment are also very much capable of engaging in or being complicit in sexual crimes.
In India a good example of that is AIB. There was that cringey Kangana Ranaut collab video they made maligning and slandering Hrithik Roshan with scarcely a shred of evidence, and then some of the guys in the group were later found to have engaged in sexual misconduct themselves.
No one group, ‘liberals’/ ‘conservatives’/whatever has a monopoly on decency and ethics. Many socially conservative people may not like drinking/smoking/casual sex. That doesn’t doesn’t they won’t support women who have been assaulted or raped, or don’t think that the perpetrators should be stringently punished.
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Eswar
August 8, 2019
Haven’t read the review, but glad Ajit has done something outside his mass image and also for H.Vinoth. Liked Theeran: Adhigaram Ondru.
Regarding the progressive topic: Which is a more progressive state in India in the context of the discussion here. I am not arguing TN is more progressive. But just wondering if the progressiveness is defined based on comparison to other states in India or using a standard expectation scale. Curious to know which other states fair better on either of these scales.
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thoo
August 8, 2019
@silver, if you’re referring to my comment, what I said were direct quotes from a video linked in one of the comments and not a statement on conservatism.
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Dwk
August 8, 2019
@isai @easwar @ thoo
I think there is a confusion when comparing general “progressiveness” and among those of our peer group and social strata.
India is a deeply conservative society all around individual state differences not withstanding.
But that being said the general level of freedom available to women, to work and to participate in society is higher in the southern states, if one is to look at the masses, but at the same time the middle and upper middle classes (who form a 5% sliver of the total population) are more conservative in the south.
I am a chennaite who studied in Delhi for for my of and found that there exists a bubble of middle and upper middle class who are more “liberal” than the same social strata folks in Chennai.
So a reader of baddys reviews would be mostly from the middle classes internet savvy folk might find their equivalents are conservative or liberal in South and North respectively but that is just the sample bias exhibited due to our peer group.
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Isai
August 8, 2019
@silverambrosia Well said. Much liked this sentence “No one group, ‘liberals’/ ‘conservatives’/whatever has a monopoly on decency and ethics.”
Youtube Library has a history section with a search feature that can be used to find previously seen videos.
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Isai
August 8, 2019
@dwk I agree with your comment and have had similar experiences myself. Except in the way sometimes the words ‘liberal’, ‘progressive’ etc. are (mis)used. AFAIK ‘progressive’ is used in the context of social reform. I don’t think praneshp was referring to social reform in his comment and hence had asked him to explain. IMO, a ‘liberal’ should be equally accepting of gay/arranged marriage, miniskirt/burqa etc. But I have seen that many ‘liberals’ who consider themselves as ‘very progressive’ are quite accepting of gay marriage, miniskirt etc. but sneer at a burqa or an arranged marriage.
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silverambrosia
August 8, 2019
Thoo: Sure, glad to know it’s not a categorical statement on social conservatives
Isai: Some of them also like to assume that that people who hold socially conservative opinions are just a bunch of morons who have never thought anything through, or been exposed to alternative viewpoints. They like presenting such views in an inaccurate, caricatured way and then dismissing them as ‘backward’/’provincial’/’small town’ etc. They seem to think that this constitutes an argument.
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hattorihanzo4784
August 8, 2019
After living and working in London for quite some years, the most shocking thing for me on my return to India was the rudeness of women here in comparison with the women there. When you help them, they dont smile, they dont say thank you, if you say hello to start a conversation they dont even acknowledge your presence. If I pick something they couldn’t handle, they treat me like a servant and move on. If I keep the door open for them, they look away as if I am some gatekeeper. It made me reminisce about how chivalry is well acknowledged in the west by the fairer sex and how they always appreciate help with atleast a smile or a thank you. I felt that Indian women are extremely rude in comparison.
But as I introspected and observed over time, I feel that they are just victims of a system which classifies them as a “slut” if they are seen moving friendly with another guy or even as much as acknowledges kindness from a man. Immediately this is understood as a “signal” from the woman who wants to probably mate with this moron and produce babies – just for the mighty feats such as holding a door or picking up some heavier luggage that they are struggling with. My cousin told me that in TN colleges there is usually a “rowdy batch” who dont have balls to interact with a woman and these sexually frustrated brats wile away all their time, bitching about women who have boyfriends even the ones with platonic friendships, mocking them, teasing them and slut shaming them.
No wonder, Indian women “have to be rude”, to stop unwanted advances from strangers.
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Rahul
August 8, 2019
silverambrosia , you are trying to compare two entirely different things. Conservatives may or may not be rape apologists, but the opinion that women are wrong for not dressing conservatively does lead to rape apologia.
Liberals and conservatives both commit crimes against women. People commit crimes for various reasons. But by your reasoning it would seem like every murderer believes that murder is moral.
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MANK
August 8, 2019
Great review Brangan. i liked Theeran Adhigaaram Ondru and glad to see Vinoth scoring with another film, though i wish he had done something original and a masals film in the vein of that film.
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Rahini David
August 8, 2019
No wonder, Indian women “have to be rude”, to stop unwanted advances from strangers.
Yes, when every “Thank you, sir” was seen as “let’s spend ‘quality’ time together”, I became colder and ruder.
Even “i have a problem with my Gf, here me out” is a pickup line.
Even “I want to improve my vocabulary, please suggest a book” is a pickup line.
Even “what do you do when you miss the bus” is a pickup line.
But after the woman calls it out, it stops being a pickup line and starts to be “omg, are you paranoid or what?”
Then it is “oh Rahini, you seem to have encountered some pretty bad men, tell me about them” which is also… you guessed it…a pick up line.
—- insert swear words of choice. —–
The problem is not that I am now ruder to men who really want to just have coffee. On the outside, I never call a man out for another man’s sin.
But within me, it is like some thing just died. I can not listen to a man talk about a girl friend, or a book or even the traffic without quietly, tiredly waiting for the pickup line.
Oh and the “you have a great grasp on the male mind. You are so intelligent” that is the most common pickup line i get.
What is yours?
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V
August 8, 2019
Just a few observations relevant to the discussion going on here:
Vidya Balan, a Tamil/Keralite married to a North Indian (i.e non-South) shares a superb chemistry with Ajith with a few peck-on-the-cheek scenes. Whereas Jothika, a North Indian married to a Tamil guy maintains an arm’s distance with her onscreen pair (if any) even in romantic scenes (eg. Kaatrin Mozhi, which was again done by a much married Vidya Balan in Hindi)
Im not talking about physical intimacy – but even her body language is cautious not to trigger her sensitive audience. Is this not an indicator of our mindset?
I just watched Nerkonda Parvai at a theater in Central Chennai. The audience that erupted for Ajith’s mass interval scene & during his grilling of a “Female” Police Officer, went mum during the critical No means No scene. Infact Rangaraj Pandey’s arguments got more nods of approval, atleast from those beside me. Had it been anyone other than Ajith, the same crowd would have boo-ed when Meera accepts that she has had casual relationships in the past. Ippo not wanting to troll their own star, they had to maintain an uncomfortable silence.
Social indices may not provide the right perspective of ground reality. BR’s blog & its commenters too fall in the minority. As Thoo said (spat!) – Neeya Naana, Bigg Boss voting patterns, Memes, Tweets – they show rhe the actual mentality because of the cloak of anonymity.
And this pattern is definitely disturbing.
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silverambrosia
August 8, 2019
Many people (not just conservatives) are of the view that male thinking is affected by how women dress. This should not be controversial, it’s really just about hormones and basic human biology. And men are generally more visual than women. Does that make OK for a man to touch, or assault a woman he is attracted to, especially when it’s clear that she wants him to get lost? Of course not. People may see women’s clothes as an influencing factor on male behaviour. That doesn’t mean that they see it as a justification or excuse for male behaviour. I think that is a real distinction.
My own view is that the role of law-enforcement is key and cannot be understated. I’ll give an example from the Gulf. In a number of gulf countries where women generally dress very conservatively, they still get harassed and followed around by men in malls and in public places. These men will rarely get fined or face serious legal sanctions or have their names published in the paper, if they come from a wealthy and well- connected family. If the woman also comes from an influential family, then he might be in trouble. If some poor maid from Indonesia or Sri Lanka gets raped nothing is likely to happen.
Dubai, however, is significantly different. It’s a country that is keen to project itself as an amazing tourist destination and as a safe and women-friendly place. Strict action is taken against street harassers. If a women makes a complaint, the guy will face immediate jail-time. This is what I’ve heard at least. Dubai is also a traditional society and the cultural mores of the people there are not very different from the cultural mores of those who live in the surrounding gulf states. Yet, it appears that the level of street harassment and male anti-social behavior is much lower. And women in Dubai (especially expatriate women and female tourists) wear whatever they want. I don’t know if things are much better for domestic workers from poor countries, but generally the situation is better there.
What does this tell us? It tells us that men have an instinct for self-preservation as does everyone else. If they know prompt and stringent action will be taken against them they are much, much less likely to engage in sexual crimes. I think in India, proper law enforcement, a more efficient judiciary and police reform are the things to focus on.
“Liberals and conservatives both commit crimes against women. People commit crimes for various reasons. But by your reasoning it would seem like every murderer believes that murder is moral.”
I don’t think people who advocate for greater sexual freedom are necessarily motivated by a desire to make things better for women or society. Some might be. But sex is a primal need, and for many it’s about easier and quicker access to it. All of us like to be free to do what we want. Conservatives are, however, concerned about the long term societal implications of these trends and the preservation of the family unit. I think many of their concerns are legitimate, and they are certainly within their rights to hold those concerns.
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Eswar
August 9, 2019
I have seen that many ‘liberals’ who consider themselves as ‘very progressive’ are quite accepting of gay marriage, miniskirt etc. but sneer at a burqa or an arranged marriage.
One reason for this is, the word liberal in public discourse does not exactly take its literal meaning. In the socio-political dictionary, there are various forms of liberalism like ‘classical liberalism’, ‘social liberalism’, ‘libertarianism’ etc. Some of these forms in spite of their similar sounding names conflict with each other. While liberalism today would be happy to promote equality by giving more power to governments, libertarianism and I think even classical liberalism would want governments to have only minimal power and lesser interference on individuals. To differentiate from the former group, the latter tend to qualify themselves as ‘classical liberals’.
A libertarian, I think even a classical liberal, would give more importance to individual rights. Whereas a liberal in today’s terms would give more importance to make societies equal. Thought these two goals sound similar, there is a difference which is well articulated by Hayek.
There is all the difference in the world between treating people equally and attempting to make them equal. While the first is the condition of a free society, the second means as De Tocqueville describes it, a new form of servitude.
While arranged marriages, wearing Burqa and other conservative (not using in a derogatory way) practices will be opposed by a libertarian only when coercion is involved. A liberal today would probably oppose, criticise them as all of these can be a symptom of societal inequality, especially in a patriarchal, religion dominant society.
All said, in reality, except for a very small number, people do not wholly fall under a label. Most people have internal conflicts and exhibit different preferences and behaviours at different times. To expect any form of consistency among people is almost unnatural. This does not mean we should not strive for consistency. While we work towards reducing our internal conflicts to become more consistent, we should also try to be more forgiving when others exhibit inconsistency.
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brangan
August 9, 2019
Rahini David: Would you like to meet over a cup of coffee and discuss this blog? Um, never mind….
V: Im not talking about physical intimacy – but even her body language is cautious not to trigger her sensitive audience. Is this not an indicator of our mindset?
Exactly what I was thinking of when I made that comment in the JACKPOT review (I think). Is this Jyotika’s fear that “Tamil audience won’t accept me this way”? Or is the Tamil audience REALLY this way, I wonder.
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Isai
August 9, 2019
“While arranged marriages, wearing Burqa and other conservative (not using in a derogatory way) practices will be opposed by a libertarian only when coercion is involved. A liberal today would probably oppose, criticise them as all of these can be a symptom of societal inequality, especially in a patriarchal, religion dominant society.”
Coercion or more realistically familial/spousal pressure need not happen only with conservative practices like wearing a burqa. I have seen men who wanted their wives to dress more glamourosly whether it is wearing western dresses or even a georgette saree instead of her preferred crepe. Also seen both men and women being pressurised to drink with words of ‘encouragement’ like ‘just try it’, ‘you CAN handle it… or maybe you can’t’. When I asked one guy on why he was ‘encouraging’ our female friend to drink, he replied that ‘she may have come from a conservative family but now that she has joined a MNC, she should learn how to fit it and socialise.’ The literal definition of a liberal is ‘someone who is willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one’s own’. So when a ‘liberal’ perceives a burqa wearing teetotaller woman who has had an arranged marriage as an unenlightened being or expects a woman to drink in order to socialise, he is not being a liberal at all.
And such practices may NOT NECESSARILY be a symptom of societal inequality.
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silverambrosia
August 9, 2019
I meant ‘cannot be overstated’
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Isai
August 9, 2019
“Is this Jyotika’s fear that “Tamil audience won’t accept me this way”? Or is the Tamil audience REALLY this way, I wonder.”
Kasthuri, a much married actress did an item song in Tamil Padam 2 that released last year. She was and is often interviewed by many media outlets about socio-political issues. I neither saw any outrage from the tamil audience nor any diminishing in her popularity/acceptability post the film’s release.
I think Jyothika’s reluctance may be due to concerns about her in-laws rather than about the tamil audience. There were rumors that Amitabh and Jaya Bachchan were not happy about their bahu Aishwarya’s kissing scene with Hrithik in Dhoom 2.
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Kaspar
August 9, 2019
I enjoyed the movie and appreciated Ajith’s balance between subtle masala moments and serving the plot. I watched the movie in Toronto and could tell that the message may not have registered with the countless Ajith fans in the back. The scene where Meera admits to having a physical relationship with more than one man, I think the aunty infront of me had a very loud “girls do this” moment. Hopefully there’s some take-away for others who watched it. Also like the supporting actor choices in Delhi Ganesh, the uncle who takes care of Vidya Balan, the political head dude and so on.
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thoo
August 9, 2019
BR, you are on twitter, so you must get a good idea of how Tamil audience responds to things. Tamil twitter is NOT the stronghold of middle and upper classes either. Sivakumar seems like a grade A patriarchal asshole, so it both surya na fans and siva na’s feelings.
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Srinivas R
August 9, 2019
If Twitter is a window to the world, this movie will make far less BO numbers than Viswasam and Vivegam, there is this constant chat of pubku pora ponnungalaku ippadithan nadakum. Blue sattai also says the same. He is an influential reviewer and there is hardly any outrage against him.
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V
August 9, 2019
BR it is probably the reflection of the mindset of the Tamil Audience of today (I am with Thoo on this).
Earlier we had Sowcar Janaki, Padmini, Lakshmi, KR Vijaya all of them do films – romance drama comedy – after their marriage, after having kids! Padmini did the romantic Iru Malargal, Thillana Mohanambal, Thenum Palum after she made a comeback. Sowcar – sollave venam – she started out in the industry with an infant in her arms!
Now even Simran Jothika Samantha (in Tamil) dont / cant dare to push the envelope. I was hoping Khushbu or Simran would do the unthinkable of going the glam route post marriage too. But Khush was content with – Panju mittaaai seela katti & Sim, with Mundhinam Partheney kind of roles.
And while I was at this, I happened to see this:
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/makers-irked-at-paris-paris-being-referred-to-censor-board-revising-committee/articleshow/70570987.cms
Ha ha ha…the film has run into censorship troubles only in Tamil (and cleared with U/A in Kannada, Malayalam). I think the Censor board Officers forgot that there was a film called Engeyum Kadhal that released about 6-7 years back, where the hero (Jayam Ravi) played a casanova in the (idhey) Paris.
What are we trying to prove here, as a society?
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brangan
August 9, 2019
Thoo: I am on twitter mainly in my notifications section, where I read responses to my tweets / posts, RT them, and get out. I don’t go to the timeline much — as there is too much virtue-signalling there and for news, I depend on my feed reader. Keeps me sane 😀
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hattorihanzo4784
August 9, 2019
Pick up lines are totally ON and the right way to go – but being aware of the time and place is very important.
When it is not on – helping a lady lift her luggage at the airport baggage handling, giving your seat up for a girl who is standing, helping a woman who is a junior at your workplace with your expertise. These are mundane stuff which I would have done for another man too. It’s just not right to try and pick up a woman in these situations, because there hasn’t been any connection which has been established in these regular situations. Any moron who tries to pick up women like this is pretty desperate and I am being really nice here.
When it is totally ON – you would know it. Looks are exchanged, smiles are exchanged, Like in any stable society where the rules of engagement with the opposite sex are well established and you have good enough space for socializing “for the sole intent of finding a suitable companion of your sexual preference either for temporary or permanent partnership”. Then, pick up lines are totally on. Somebody has to take the initiative for heaven’s sake.
I myself unleashed with impunity on my female “acquaintances” (not strangers) who have actually shown “interest in socializing with me”. Heck, I have been “picked up” on a couple of instances by women. She asked me straight up if I had any plans for the next 2 hours when I just finished chatting up with her about the group project we had to complete for the Uni. Later when we were alone, she kept praising God. Can never forget the sheer straightforwardness that she possessed. Usually the IITs, IIMs, Bits, symbiosis, posh colleges and other top national colleges are not just the small islands of brilliance or luxury in the ocean of mediocrity of Indian education, but also the small islands of sexual freedom in the ocean of sexual repression in the Indian educational institutions. There is the infamous sat****ama engg college in Chennai where in 2000-2010 ish period, is a dating hellhole. Teenagers who even have a small conversation are slut shamed and punished as an example for others. Don’t know if it has progressed or regressed further nowadays.
So with all due respect, pick up lines are totally on. It’s just that many Indian men are immature or a way too sexually frustrated or completely lack the access to proper places where they can actually do it. So they get psycho greedy and do it in places where they have no business doing it. If anyone thinks that the very idea of “initiating a conversation to show sexual interest in the opposite sex” is itself wrong, then sorry but IMO, you are in the wrong too.
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Honest Raj
August 9, 2019
V: Earlier we had Sowcar Janaki, Padmini, Lakshmi, KR Vijaya all of them do films – romance drama comedy – after their marriage, after having kids!
You beat me to this. 🙂 But then, I wonder whether they were “accepted” because they were married to ones who were relatively lesser-known in the industry/had no connection to the industry. Savithri seems to be a real exception – thanks to her libertarian husband. 🙂
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Ganesan Kandasamy
August 9, 2019
I have not seen the film. I think by the time I do so, it will already be on one of the streaming platforms. I did watch Pink though and I think it is a very good film. I think it was kinda amazing that Amitabh Bachchan’s name appears after the names of the female leads in the opening credits. to me, that is an indication of how much consideration is given to what the film actually represents. the casting was perfect (in my opinion) and I’m grateful that Amitabh Bachchan continues to make such movies in his twilight years.
That is why I have a hard time understanding why somebody like Ajith would want to remake Pink – what are you trying to prove anyways? I have a sinking film that Ajith’s core fan base are more interested in Ajith than the subject matter of the film… this sinking feeling started when I saw the fight scene in the trailer and continues as I read the posts about the audience reaction during the movie, as posted above. Does it really take someone like Ajith to educate our boys about respecting women better?
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Isai
August 9, 2019
“If Twitter is a window to the world, this movie will make far less BO numbers than Viswasam and Vivegam, there is this constant chat of pubku pora ponnungalaku ippadithan nadakum. Blue sattai also says the same. He is an influential reviewer and there is hardly any outrage against him.”
I haven’t seen this movie yet but have seen Pink. Judging by the reactions, I think this movie will make more money in TN box office than Vivegam and maybe lesser than Viswasam. Not everyone has to agree with the idealogy/message/solution put forth by the movie for it to be successful. There was a debate and differing opinions on whether the climax of the movie Samsaram adhu minsaram Movie was correct/acceptable among the censor officials. The producer rightly said that even if some people don’t agree with the climax, the fact that it was bringing such strong polarising reactions among the audience itself would lead to its success.
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thoo
August 9, 2019
Don’t cop out like that BR! If you want an answer to your q, you only need to check on twitter for the majority response nkp is getting. I wouldn’t be surprised in the least if a few days on, the only whistles that fly on the theatre will be for the villains.
To someone that asked why Ajit is doing this film – he seems like a decent guy and has a daughter. Maybe he sees the state of things and feels like he owes the women this. Which other mass hero do you see doing this film?
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thoo
August 9, 2019
TW ᵀʳᵒˡˡʸʷᵒᵒᵈ @TrollywoodV5
Aug. 9, 2019 9:25:41 AM
“People who loves pubs and night life only will like this movie”
“For all the problems faced by those women, they themselves are the root cause. So we dont feel any sympathy”
“Opposition lawyer’s points get lot of support”
Next misogynist @Chinmayi @varusarath @KasthuriShankar https://t.co/rQ8XLqZkCb
via Twitter for Android
https://twitter.com/TrollywoodV5/status/1159674587098959873
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thoo
August 9, 2019
It’s a little funny though. Asking a society that hasn’t even accepted women are not lesser beings to men, to understand consent is a bit rich. Even the first world has difficulty with consent. Look at all them responding to nkp – “human rights are only for women that conform to our definition of womanhood. Every other woman is fair game” I love how much they look down on naarth Indian kalacharam too! “Look at these naarth indian fuckers thinking women can go to pubs and have sex. This seerketta kalacharam inga kedaiyadu. Inga we molest and rape pub going women to show them how wrong they are! Our kalacharam is best!”
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Isai
August 9, 2019
“Ha ha ha…the film has run into censorship troubles only in Tamil (and cleared with U/A in Kannada, Malayalam). I think the Censor board Officers forgot that there was a film called Engeyum Kadhal that released about 6-7 years back, where the hero (Jayam Ravi) played a casanova in the (idhey) Paris.
What are we trying to prove here, as a society?”
I think this is just a publicity stunt.
The film’s dialogues are ‘written by’ Tamil Laureate(TM) and South Chennai MP Sumathy alias Thamizhachi Thangapandian. Do you think that censor officials have the might/integrity to deny U/A certificate to this film just due to 25 shots?
The film, a remake of Queen, is simultaneously remade in 3 languages by the same director but with different heroines. Nowhere do they tell you that the same shots/scenes/cuss words that have been objected by Tamil Censor board are appearing and are approved in the Kannada, Telugu remakes. Considering the ridiculousness of it, I feel they would have definitely mentioned it if that was the case. But since they haven’t, I think this is just a publicity stint.
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Isai
August 9, 2019
“Engeyum Kadhal that released about 6-7 years back, where the hero (Jayam Ravi) played a casanova in the (idhey) Paris.”
I don’t think the objection about cleavage and cuss words have anything to do with Paris. Unless you meant that there were similar scenes with cuss words and cleavage shots in that movie, I honestly don’t see the relevance.
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Srinivas R
August 9, 2019
@isai – what i see in twitter is that, there is a lot of justification provided for reviews like Blue sattai and valaipechu. The question of ” how can we sympathise with the women if they are not virgins” is a constant and again raised in the name of kalachaaram. The movie’s theme is an antithesis to what macho mass movies represent. Would be happy to be proved wrong if it indeed becomes a big hit.
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Varsha Ganesh
August 9, 2019
“All of us like to be free to do what we want. Conservatives are, however, concerned about the long term societal implications of these trends and the preservation of the family unit. I think many of their concerns are legitimate, and they are certainly within their rights to hold those concerns.”
The problem liberals (actual liberals) have is not against the above opinion but forcing that opinion on others. Conservatives are absolutely free and within their right to preserve “their” family unit as they see fit. Where it becomes forcing is when they gain strength by numbers enabling tangible harm. If a major number of people believe girls going to pubs is causing erosion of this family unit value, there are going to be bad actors within that subset who actually “act” to prevent girls from doing that. Yes we need better support from law enforcement but we also need the mindset of always judging other`s lifestyle choices to change. My experience has been that conservatives are unable to live and let live. And that’s exactly what liberals would like. To be left the hell alone.
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Madan
August 9, 2019
Great posts, Easwar and Isai. Particularly, the distinction between libertarianism and liberalism in the modern sense was well brought out. And there is a grey space in between which is where I fall. I am a libertarian in the general sense but can take progressive views when it comes to individual cases. That is, I would neither assume that arranged marriage is by definition bad nor that it is good in all cases but look at the specifics, how was the marriage arranged, whether the girl’s consent was obtained unambiguously, whether the husband treats her respectfully after marriage as well, etc. So maybe I am neither a libertarian nor a liberal but just a lawyer (accountant, actually, but all CAs have to study law to acquire that qualification anyway).
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Madan
August 9, 2019
“My experience has been that conservatives are unable to live and let live. And that’s exactly what liberals would like.”- Agreed on the first sentence. Second applies to classical liberals/Indian liberals (because wokeness in the Bay Area sense of the word is a long way off). I am not sure it applies to the entire class of liberals for the reasons Easwar has laid out. There has always been an interventionist class of liberals, great society liberals as conservatives in USA refer to them. They try to make society in what they want it to be just the same as the religious/social conservatives. The libertarian strands of both conservatism and liberalism tend to overlap.
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Amit Joki
August 9, 2019
True story: I overheard someone ask “Abirami oda character epdi da?” and the reply was “Ava oru th.*?ya” Though I have not seen NKP, I sure have seen Pink and I was flabbergasted.
Tells a lot about the audience.
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vijay
August 9, 2019
The regressive Dravidian/Tamil mindset cannot be reset overnight. Thala himself has done such Thala’vali” roles in Varalaaru type of films. Ippo konjam salt-and-pepper vandha vudane appadiye society-conscious aayitaarakkum. Remember the tamil film industry is controlled by characters like Radha Ravi. Tragic irony.
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vijay
August 9, 2019
And I am really waiting for the day when the following words are banned/purged from the tamil lexicon esp. on social media:
gethu
vera level
mass
marana mass
mokka
viral
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Isai
August 9, 2019
@Srini: I don’t use twitter much but I expect things to have happened in twitter exactly the way you said it. But my point is: that is not sufficient to stop the audience from going and watching the movie or make them discourage others from watching it.
Also, I agree with some points mentioned by blue sattai ONLY from a cinematic point of view. I will post them as a separate comment tomorrow.
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Eswar
August 10, 2019
@Isai: Completely agree with what you said Coercion or more realistically familial/spousal pressure need not happen only with conservative practices like wearing a burqa.
And no disagreement with the definition of liberal. The confusion is in what people mean by these words when they use it to qualify themselves or tag others. And even if they mean it in its truest sense, context is the king, and people’s stance change when they lack context or know the context better. That is why it makes sense to hold responsible someone for their actions rather than their labels. When one’s action is abominable, does it matter if the person is liberal or conservative?
@Madan. Thanks. You’ve explained it in the most practical sense.
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Eswar
August 10, 2019
Asking a society that hasn’t even accepted women are not lesser beings to men, to understand consent is a bit rich.
This is true only when everyone in a society is at stand still. Societies are usually on a journey. People travel at different pace and are at different points of this journey. Even in societies where the majority are at a single point where they are unable to appreciate something like consent, there are always outliers who can benefit even from a ray of light. Similarly, for the new generation who are just starting up, who aren’t aware of their slow moving affected ancestors, a content like this could guide them into a different, hopefully a better path. Individuals evolve from such a spark and could end up becoming that one person who can inspire a generation of people.
It’s okay if people who are ahead in the journey are not able to help the people behind. But it does no good when people who are ahead look down upon people who are behind them. Snobbery and contempt are not going to make these people move faster in their journey. These attitudes are more likely to make them stay put where they are now.
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silverambrosia
August 10, 2019
Varsha: I think many conservatives are not hugely bothered about what other people do with their lives. They have no particular interest in dictating terms and getting into confrontational situations with others. They are, however, concerned about major societal and cultural shifts that will eventually affect their own children and their own families. A lot depends on context, where you live and your surrounding environment. There is a serious coarsening of culture going on. I have younger cousins in American high schools (and very good high schools) where it is not unusual for girls to be texted nude requests by their male classmates). That is disturbing for me, and I’m sure many people who don’t regard themselves as particularly conservative will find it disturbing and distressing as well; young school girls should not have to deal with something like this, and its not just a question of ‘consent’. That’s just one example.
There are many (Australian, American, British) university campuses where you cannot express conservative opinions without inviting general opprobrium upon yourself, and people will not hear you out. A university is meant to be a place for open debate and exchange of ideas, not censorship and silencing. Conservatives are not the only people who force their opinions on others, and silence dissent. In Bollywood the last overtly conservative film I saw was Sooraj Barjatya’s ‘Prem Ratan Dhan Payo’, which was mostly met with ridicule by Indian English language reviewers. If they think it’s ridiculous they are allowed to call it ridiculous; I have no issues with that. But directors and writers are allowed to propound their own vision and conception of the good; it may or may not find takers but it does not amount forcing their views on anyone.
I understand that what is depicted in standard Bollywood movies is often very different from ground realities, which can be heavily influenced by where you live and the particular circles you move in. I get that many young people may find the environment they live in stifling, and want older people or extended family members to leave them alone and let them do their own thing. Obviously there are traditionalists who are not just nosy parkers but are bullies and thugs as well. In many traditional societies (including several Muslim countries), individuals can also incur the wrath of the state if they decide to live their lives a particular way). All of this is common knowledge. But depending on where you live, the dominance of a particular strand of liberalism on the cultural discourse has yielded its own set of very real problems.
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Madan
August 10, 2019
“. In Bollywood the last overtly conservative film I saw was Sooraj Barjatya’s ‘Prem Ratan Dhan Payo’” – Most Salman films are conservative. Just that the Barjatya films are the only ones which show the Hindu parivar, shaadi etc. But that’s only type of conservative film. In a broader sense, Parmanu was also a conservative film and so was Neerja. All of these films did well at the BO, by the way.
“I understand that what is depicted in standard Bollywood movies is often very different from ground realities” – But what is a standard Bollywood film? I live in Mumbai and I don’t know the answer to that question. Badhai Ho was a hit last year and it offered a sly critique on the hypocrisy of the self styled woke set, showing how they veer towards conservative choices when it comes to important decisions in their own lives, like marriage. The biggest hit of this and last year is Uri. And now Kabir Singh is the next big thing. Oh, there was Padmavat too. So on… The safest bet in Bollywood right now is historical reenactments, sagas based on fictional characters set in the medieval age (Baahubali) or war/patriotic films. The more things change, the more they remain the same.
I don’t really buy this Breitbart-style theory of there being some dominant liberal narrative in the movies. What Andrew Breitbart did was to ignore all the jingoistic/triumphant war movies, all the tourist advertisements masquerading as romantic comedies and focus only on the films that chose to be subversive and succeeded. But it is only recently that same sex marriage was legalised in USA. Only last year was homosexuality decriminalised in India and with the blessings of a conservative government at that. If the cultural narrative offered by films is so powerful, why would it take so many years just to persuade people that homosexuality is not a mental illness?
To me, the notion that movies offer a dominant liberal narrative stems from a very conservative impulse to change the narrative BACK to what they would like to be and their discomfort with free speech norms that make it difficult for THEM to control the narrative. But the diagnosis then is faulty on their part as this has a lot more to do with urbanisation and the attendant decline in the role of religion in influencing everyday life. Again, this is contextual. Even in Mumbai, the vast majority of people are religious, same as anywhere else in India. People who smoke or wear short dresses may not sniff at going to temples. I know this for a fact, actually. People are way too complex/complicated in their motives to fit into the neat identity boxes that both conservatives and lefties would like to place them in. The insistence on the rhetoric of diversity ironically ignores how diverse and heterodox in their choices individuals often are.
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thoo
August 10, 2019
Easwar: oH please! It’s a given that you are not talking about every single person when you talk about society as a whole. Pls look at the linked videos. The people behind (per you) have a lot more contempt for the ones ahead than the other way around.
Anyway, I’m done with this thread. Rationalise the misogyny and regressiveness away any way needed.
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V
August 10, 2019
@Isai: Kasthuri did an item song in a spoof movie directed by CS Amudhan – who, going by his Twitter comments, probably wanted to make the statement that married ladies in their late thirties could do a steamy song. However, the song itself was seen as a spoof on item songs – because it was performed by a married lady/mom in her late thirties (Aunty!!!)
This is the mindset of the audience that Im talking about.
About Engeyum Kadhal – what I meant was, the Jayam Ravi film too had scenes where the hero goes to a strip club, flirts unabashedly & the heroine is shown to be enamored by his charisma. Paris gave the Director (Prabhu Deva) the excuse to show (white) skin & smooching. Whereas for this film Paris Paris, the crew has felt the need to remove the Strip Club scene.
Ofcourse, if the film is well-made none of this should affect its BO run. Eg Pyar Prema Kadhal. But even in that film, the audience clapped the loudest when the Hero chooses his mom over his girlfriend conveyed through a sappy dialog. It was as if the audience was trying to say – Hey, we like this film because it is nice & peppy, but we would like to reiterate that we are still the same deep-down. Idhu exception dhaan, norm kedayadhu.
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V
August 10, 2019
Honest Raj: Agree. But I don’t know, shouldnt those relatively unknown spouses be more possessive & sceptical than those are in the same industry? However the fact is that they were quite cool about it. Quite unlike the Sivakumar clan.
And this doesn’t seem to be a conscious decision taken by Jo – because she had agreed to do “Mersal” with Vijay & within few days retracted her acceptance. Rumours had it that it was due to the advice given by her family to do relevant social subjects, than be part of masala films! (In the end, Nithya Menon turned out to be the best thing to happen to Mersal! Adhu vera kadhai)
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silverambrosia
August 10, 2019
Madan: I wasn’t theorising; I was just reflecting on the experiences of family and friends, and things that I know people and parents (across the ideological spectrum) to be struggling with. Religious conservatives are not the only people who have a problem with the coarsening of culture and the overt sexualisation of children and young adults, and I’m not placing people in water-tight compartments and labeled categories. I’m well aware that people are more complex than that.
In talking about India, I’m on less sure terrain and you can correct me if I’m wrong on any of the following. There has a been a big shift in societal norms and sexual mores in significant parts of India (largely some of the major cities) over the last twenty-five years or so (post-liberalisation) and that shift has in no small part been influenced by movies and culture, and increased access to external cultural artifacts. Some people think these social changes are a great thing, others don’t. But it would be disingenuous to suggest that films and television (and a particular worldview that many of them are broadly underpinned by) have not played a substantial role in effecting that shift.
I also think its wrong to assume that conservatives are just reactionaries who cannot handle “free speech norms that make it difficult for THEM to control the narrative”. Many of them do have well thought out positions and are very much capable of handling free speech norms. They don’t necessarily view consent as the only arbiter of whether something is desirable or good for society. E.g. In the UK, where I live, the Office for National Statistics estimates that about 40% of marriages end in divorce. There is a higher prevalence of divorce amongst people from lower socio-economic backgrounds and they are usually the worst hit in terms of the effects. That is a very high statistic. Some liberals would say ‘who cares, it’s the couple’s own business, it’s their own life and this shouldn’t this matter to anyone’. And at a surface level it is their just own business. Others will go so far as to suggest that conservatives actually want women to stay on in abusive marriages; which is a complete straw-man IMO and diverts from the actual issue at hand. No one is saying that women should stay on in abusive marriages, or that a couple in a severely dysfunctional marriage should continue on just for the sake of it.
The broad position that social conservatives will take is that such a high incidence of divorce does matter; that children are majorly affected, and that it is more difficult for individuals and communities to thrive when there is a lack emotional security and stability in the family sphere. Some will also posit that in a very permissive sexual environment, with no barriers to anything, it is much harder for couples to stay loyal to each other and maintain their marriages. These are just realistic observations, and they often come from a place of concern for society rather than a desire to control society.
There is also general disquiet (across the ideological spectrum) on the phenomenon of ‘transgender kids’ with kids as young as 3 or 4 being labeled ‘transgender’ or being groomed for later gender reassignment by their hyper woke parents. What does a four year old know about sexuality? Do they even know what their sexual organs are there for? A small boy who likes playing with dolls can be diagnosed with gender dysphoria and given puberty blockers and the behest of his woke parents, and the people who are in favour of this are the same people who insist that gender is just a construct and is distinct from biology. These developments are even concerning for people who are proponents of the LGBT movement. It’s no longer just about live and let live in this part of the world.
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Madan
August 10, 2019
” There has a been a big shift in societal norms and sexual mores in significant parts of India (largely some of the major cities) over the last twenty-five years or so” – I live in what is purportedly the most liberal city of India and any PDA beyond holding hands attracts glares. If Marine Drive, then you are liable to get beaten up by cops. Sorry, I don’t see the big change other than open mindedness towards LGBT community and even that, I would argue, has been legislated top down without the support necessarily being that broad based among the masses. Vast majority of people still have arranged marriage and dowry is well alive.
“I also think its wrong to assume that conservatives are just reactionaries who cannot handle “free speech norms that make it difficult for THEM to control the narrative”” – It is not an assumption but my interpretation of Breitbart’s argument and by implication of anybody who supports that argument. I don’t think it’s WRONG to hold views about the direction society is headed towards. That is perfectly legitimate in so far as it doesn’t cross over into bigotry or stereotyping (stuff like, better to keep black people far away from whites etc). My grouse is only with the conspiracy theory concocted by conservatives about there being this liberal agenda forced down the throat of people by the film industry. If it was being fed into people’s minds against their wishes, surely these films would tank and they would have to avoid showing such sentiments as upset the movie-goers. So in making out Hollywood as this big liberal machine, Breitbart is indirectly paying tribute to the persuasive power of films. The fact that they are able to express ideas in a way that people are able to accept or at least consider is upsetting for conservatives of a certain stripe (note for all this ‘influence’, the South remains the same old solid South a century and a half after the Civil War).
To which I say, be like Eastwood, get into the conversation yourself. Be like Ailes (ok not the sexual harassment or fake news part) and be an influencer yourself and fight it out in the marketplace of ideas. But the moment the conversation proceeds to a ‘need’ to ‘do something’ about the movies, I have a problem. For then, you are seeing art as a threat which it is not. And this goes both ways. I don’t see Kabir Singh as a threat either. I may find the film problematic for how it depicts consent (or lack of it) but I don’t regard it as a threat.
As for your last para about gender fluidity, I have a problem with bringing the conversation into India where it is not relevant without adapting for context. This is also why I have a problem with dubbing everyone who likes Pink or criticises Kabir Singh as ‘woke’. No, woke in the American context means something totally different and that kind of liberal is practically non existent in India or at least very far from even a significant fraction of a percentage in terms of population. Liberals have no privilege beyond some academic institutions in Delhi whose influence is increasingly waning. Bollywood is full of closet or open right wing folks. So is TV media. So what precisely bothers conservatives about how things are in India when they hold the aces culturally and politically. I know you didn’t say this but (and this is the problem with importing Western arguments for an Indian context) it comes across as wanting to obliterate a beleaguered and embattled minority who get viciously mocked with inane words like librandu for merely holding a different set of views from self styled nationalists.
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neabs
August 10, 2019
The movie worked for me, I guess this is a new treatment to Tamil cinema. I somehow didn’t like Rangaraj Pandey’s performance, it just looked like a prime time debate, whereas the performance of Piyush Mishra was threatening and blood boiling.
Nevertheless it’s a good effort to produce such films.
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Anu Warrier
August 11, 2019
There is also general disquiet (across the ideological spectrum) on the phenomenon of ‘transgender kids’ with kids as young as 3 or 4 being labeled ‘transgender’ or being groomed for later gender reassignment by their hyper woke parents.
The fact is that (and scientific studies prove it) there are some children who are very aware that they are not born into the ‘right’ body by the time they are three or four. Some, not all. Gender reassignment surgery, however, does not – cannot, by law – take place until said child is a teenager. It happens only after much counselling and no ‘woke’ parent’s advocacy is going to make a doctor do a major surgery on a minor. Legally, they can alert CPS and have them involved. (I’m talking about the US here. However, even in the socially liberal Scandinavian countries, there is a lot of discussion and counselling that goes on before gender reassignment surgery is allowed.)
As for divorce, it’s completely inaccurate to imply that only conservatives care about divorce hurting children or about family instability. Or know that divorce affects children, or that it is the lower economic strata that are inordinately affected. However, here in the US, it is those who label themselves conservative that protest any government action to help change the status quo. Repealing healthcare, shutting down federal aid to health clinics that offer abortion, refusing sex ed in high schools (and relying on abstinence as birth control) all work to steer young adults into disastrous relationships from which they find it difficult to escape thus becoming a domestic violence statistic, or if they do leave, become a divorce statistic perpetuating the cycle of family instability. The party of ‘family values’ is no such thing.
And what Varsha and Madan said.
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Varsha Ganesh
August 11, 2019
“They don’t necessarily view consent as the only arbiter of whether something is desirable or good for society.”
This is precisely the problem I have with conservatives. The presumption that they know best what is good and what is wrong, never mind the blithering idiots who make up the rest of society who can’t discern this divide. Consent is THE most important thing for us (adults) to be able to even take a shot at living fulfilling lives. Deny consent and it’s a slippery slope that could allow for all kinds of dehumanization down the line (like the Muslim countries you mentioned) and incidentally the crux of this movie.
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Ramesh
August 11, 2019
I felt the film was a silly remake of the original..massified for Ajith..it was okay for the first hour before the interval block.. an unnecessary fight, punch, doctor hyping up Ajith.. Ajith storming into the minister’s house… for a while it seemed like Baba..Again after the interval the vidya balan flashback…Its unfair to compare Ajith with Amithabh.. but the problem is Ajith is very mediocre even by tamil cinemas standards..Rangaraj Pandeys actign left a lot to be desired.. So overall interms of acting , content it’s was a let down.. I even felt Tapsee’s performance was superior to Sharddha’s. The only performance I like doing was that of Abhirami’s. I also felt may be Madhavan would have done a better job than Ajith.
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The16thShard
August 11, 2019
As BR correctly called out a few weeks back, NKP instantly became the most important movie of the year in Tamil cinema ever since the news broke out that H Vinoth was remaking Pink with Ajith at the helm. It’s a momentous occasion that a mainstream star like Ajith is willing to take a break from his seemingly lifetime contract with Siruthai Siva, to make a socially relevant movie that conveys the much-needed message about women’s safety and consent.
For me, Nerkonda Parvai is a near-perfect remake of Pink that puts our collective prejudices and misogynistic values on trial as much as the victims and perpetrators.
If you’re interested, do check out my full review:
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Arjun
August 11, 2019
“The fact is that (and scientific studies prove it) there are some children who are very aware that they are not born into the ‘right’ body by the time they are three or four. Some, not all. Gender reassignment surgery, however, does not – cannot, by law – take place until said child is a teenager. It happens only after much counselling and no ‘woke’ parent’s advocacy is going to make a doctor do a major surgery on a minor.”
This is hardly true. Everyone knows LGBT issues are highy politicized. Also “Gender studies” is not an exact science, so there is no question of “proving” anything.
Here is a recent example of politicized trans lobbies putting pressure on counsellors and mental health experts to reaffirm children’s beliefs that they were born in the wrong sex and the fear of being labelled “transphobic” that often prevents objective assessment. This example is from UK, but it cant be very different in the US or scandinavia.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jul/27/trans-lobby-pressure-pushing-young-people-to-transition
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silverambrosia
August 11, 2019
Anu: This is a genuine question, why does counseling for pre-pubescent children helping them ‘identify their gender’ need to take place at all? Children are not sexual beings, and any real sexual awakening generally happens at the onset of puberty when those hormones kick in. There may be some highly precocious children with an early interest in sex, but when the child has not even arrived at puberty or is not even close (this could be a much younger child we’re talking about, possibly a four year old or five year old) why should that child be steered in a particular direction by the activist and often self-aggrandizing adults in her or her life. For some of these parents it isn’t about the children at all, it’s about their own political posturing. I’ve included links on this below.
Some might say the parents are merely ‘encouraging the child to explore’. Why is this necessary? And these are highly invasive surgeries or medical procedures we are talking about: these children will be placed on hormone treatments and be subjective to invasive medical procedures for the rest of their lives. E.g. If it’s a boy we are actually talking about castration, that boy can never go on to be be a father. A little girl who is a bit of a tomboy and doesn’t like long hair can now be deemed to be gender dysphoric, and be told that she might be better off being a boy. If she undergoes transition will she actually become a boy? Will her chromosomes change and will she be able to father children? These are genuine, honest questions that a lot of ordinary people have, and they are being slammed as ‘bigots’ for merely asking these questions. Pretty soon, they won’t even be allowed to ask these questions. And isn’t maintaining that gender is merely a social construct and is distinct from biology, and then going on to propose massive biological intervention on bodies of young adolescents a huge contradiction in itself?
“It happens only after much counselling and no ‘woke’ parent’s advocacy is going to make a doctor do a major surgery on a minor.”
This may well cease to be the case in the UK. There are highly aggressive lobby groups here such as ‘Mermaids’ who are trying to shut down debate and bully Govt authorities into accepting their social prescriptions. Many of their assertions also run counter to established medical opinion:
https://www.feministcurrent.com/2016/10/26/lobby-groups-like-mermaids-dictate-policy-discourse-around-gender-identity-kids-lose/
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/families-exploited-by-gender-lobby-groups-pushing-for-treatment-5fddvml8r
https://www.forbes.com/sites/julianvigo/2018/12/27/pseudo-scientific-hokum-and-the-experimentation-on-childrens-bodies/#799c33b21167
When I’m talking about conservatives caring about families, I’m not talking about the Republican Party in the US or the Conservative Party in the UK. I’m not discussing this in terms of party politics, or even necessarily in terms of political theory. I’m just talking about people who broadly hold conservative social values. I agree with with your assertion that the Republican Party does not particularly care about supporting or helping families; and many of the ‘conservatives’ in their party ranks have nothing to do with conservative social values…they’re just people who staunchly defend neo-liberal market economic policies, and persistently disregard the (abundant) evidence that indicates that these policies hurt the vast majority of families, and do not enhance people’s general well-being (be it in terms of health, education, basic economic security or prospects for social mobility).
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Isai
August 11, 2019
“However, the song itself was seen as a spoof on item songs – because it was performed by a married lady/mom in her late thirties (Aunty!!!)
This is the mindset of the audience that Im talking about.”
V, there have been movies right from the Jayamalini, Jyothi lakshmi era where women both young and old have did item songs. Are you saying that the audience nowadays don’t want to see older women in item songs? I don’t think there is anything wrong even if that is true. In an earlier era most women would shy away from doing such songs, so the few who did got enough opportunities to establish themselves as a brand. Nowadays, most item girls hardly register their presence and hence would naturally have a short shelf life.
If you are regretting that married actress don’t get meaty roles in big hero movies, well that’s because the space to do such roles has shrunken as the movies have become solely about the lead actor. But on the positive side, you can see movies lead by heroines like Nayanthara, Jyotika etc. without a popular male star and directed by newcomers. I don’t remember seeing such movies in the Padmini era.
If the makers of Paris Paris have chosen to retain the sex toy scene from Queen and to avoid the strip club scene, in order to not offend the sensibilities of the tamil audience, I would only say that it is poor judgement. The club scene was not meant for titillation IMO. So comparing it with Engeyum Kadhal doesn’t make sense. On the other hand, if you meant that you can’t portray a female star doing a casanova/naan avan illai kind of movie, I agree. But, that is because, since ancient times, men have been paranoid about providing for ‘adulterated’ children and women (at least Tamil women) have often trusted other womens’ judgement more than their own, whether in choosing a saree or in choosing a man. So, it is far more difficult to show a man falling in love with a female casanova than vice versa. It may be a wish fulfillment for some women but that alone may not suffice to recover the cost, considering that male casanova movies themselves have not had much success.
“But even in that film, the audience clapped the loudest when the Hero chooses his mom over his girlfriend conveyed through a sappy dialog. It was as if the audience was trying to say – Hey, we like this film because it is nice & peppy, but we would like to reiterate that we are still the same deep-down. Idhu exception dhaan, norm kedayadhu.”
I don’t think a 50+yr female having sons is going to get offended by that audience reaction. I honestly don’t think there was anything wrong with that Hero’s action. His expectations were simple and his behavior consistent, but the heroine couldn’t initially make up her mind about whether she wants a one night stand or a friends with benefits type relationship. She later falls for him and has a live in relationship but doesn’t want to marry without fulfilling her business aspirations. But when he decides to call it quits and is going to marry another woman, she rushes to the wedding venue without considering how it is going to affect the bride’s life (same thing happened in Neethane En Ponvasantham). 3 years later, when she has opened her restaurant, NOW she wants to marry. In short, she expects the relationship status to be solely determined by her and the guy to feel blessed by her mere presence in his life. Compare this woman with a doting mother who only wants to see her son married before her death and the choice IMO is a no-brainer.
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Anu Warrier
August 11, 2019
Silver, counselling doesn’t push kids in one direction. And honestly, even ‘woke’ parents aren’t that happy about invasive, expensive surgeries. Counselling – and from my experience, at least in my state, is quite intensive to ensure that both parents and children know what gender reassignment entails. Major reconstruction surgery only happens when they are adults, not even when they are teens. And even then, it is accompanied by post-operative counselling.
Yes, there are groups who push their political agenda but isn’t that true of both conservatives and liberals? And the more strident of them are the ones who get heard.
And isn’t maintaining that gender is merely a social construct and is distinct from biology, and then going on to propose massive biological intervention on bodies of young adolescents a huge contradiction in itself?
Not really, no. Since all parents of transgender children are saying is that their children need not stay in the gender assigned by their biology when that is not who they are inside.
@Arjun – yes, trans ‘lobbies’ do put political pressure, I’m not denying that. How does that contradict what I wrote about parents who are open to their child exploring their gender identity?
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Madan
August 11, 2019
“And isn’t maintaining that gender is merely a social construct and is distinct from biology, and then going on to propose massive biological intervention on bodies of young adolescents a huge contradiction in itself?
Not really, no. Since all parents of transgender children are saying is that their children need not stay in the gender assigned by their biology when that is not who they are inside.”
I think the point is why is surgery even required for re-assignment of gender if it is indeed a social construct? Shouldn’t we instead attempt to get to the point where a man behaving in effeminate ways or vice versa is considered ok? Where we don’t put sexual relationships, further, in boxes based on gender orientation and instead accept total fluidity if the person wishes to pursue it? That somehow would appear to flow more naturally from leftist gender critique than biologically having to change oneself to ‘look’ woman/man. The latter seems to say more about Western gender stereotyping, whereby it would possibly be better for an effeminate dude to just transform into a woman than get ragged all the time about it.
I have mentioned this elsewhere but in India there has always been more tolerance towards cross-dressing, particularly men dressing up in drag, going way back to the Kishore Kumar hit song O Sawariya. Boys, including self, have been dressed up in frocks for fun during childhood and it is a ritual in some traditions to have guys wear make up and a ghungat and dance during functions. On the same lines, if a boy plays with Barbie Dolls, let him. Why should that by itself require gender reassignment? That would seem at least imo to double down on gender stereotypes instead of killing them, which is what we really need. I am also not sure how comfortable I am with leaving the decision of gender reassignment to parents or doctors. It should be left to the person themselves and therefore, it is ideally a decision to be made in adulthood. How much do kids know about what gender they really are anyway before puberty. In the exceptional cases where they ARE certain, let them but again it should be their decision, not something for parents to suggest. The parents’ job should only be to not attempt to reinforce behaviours EXPECTED on account of birth-assigned gender and allow the children to explore themselves.
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Rahul
August 11, 2019
Arjun, from the article you posted.
” said many experts were living in fear of being labelled transphobic, ”
This is the kind of stuff that makes me doubt the veracity . There is violence, prejudice against and ostracizing of trans people all over the world including the developed countries , so lets try to not engage in hyperbole about the pressure of being “politically correct”.
Secondly, lets not get our resentment of “being woke” and “politically correct” get in the way of second guessing the parents, and assuming that they are putting their children’s lives in danger because of their political ideology. Heck, I won’t believe that even the most rabid right winger will raise their children to become cow vigilantes.
Thirdly, one statistics that is missing from this discussion is the rate of attempted suicide of trans children.
Here is one study , you can readily find others.
https://www.hrc.org/blog/new-study-reveals-shocking-rates-of-attempted-suicide-among-trans-adolescen
“More than half of transgender male teens who participated in the survey reported attempting suicide in their lifetime, while 29.9 percent of transgender female teens said they attempted suicide. Among non-binary youth, 41.8 percent of respondents stated that they had attempted suicide at some point in their lives.”
Parents of transgender kids are dealing with an emergency every day , a kid who is bullied everywhere. They are addressing it best they can. In some cases ,a teen may grow out of identifying with another gender , but there is a very real risk that the child may be lost or cause serious injury to themselves by that time.
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silverambrosia
August 12, 2019
“The fact is that (and scientific studies prove it) there are some children who are very aware that they are not born into the ‘right’ body by the time they are three or four. Some, not all”
Really?! Just to put this into context: A three year old is still learning how to talk, and to put sentences together and relate incidents. A three year is undergoing toilet training and is learning how to identify colours and objects. They are also learning how to eat by themselves and dress themselves. I don’t what kind of gender counseling or consultation you think is appropriate for three year olds. Three years olds are receptacles, they have not yet acquired the critical faculties to fully understand, accept or reject whatever gender ideology is being suggested to them or thrust upon them. To quote from one of the articles I linked:
“Transgender rights campaigner, Christine Burns, presented saying that children have “gender awareness” from around the age of two. The general consensus was that a child who articulates that they want to change their gender should be able to—no matter how young they are.” She went on to relate, “[Burns] also said that we “baby” children in our culture, whereas in other countries twelve-year-olds are considered old enough to fight in wars.” The ethos is astonishing in that the barometer used to legitimize age of consent for serious medical intervention is this: if it’s good enough for child soldiers in South Sudan, then it’s good enough for all children.
This is crazy talk and why should people like Ms. Burns who are promulgating these views be taken with an ounce of seriousness?
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silverambrosia
August 12, 2019
Anu: I understand that you yourself are not saying that a three or four year old child’s consent should suffice in determining whether gender-reassignment should be considered, but I extracted that quote to indicate how outlandish and potentially dangerous some of the positions of these activists are, and why we should to take them with a truck-full of salt. And I think it’s very possible that counseling will push the child in a particular direction, especially when the child is so very young and when the parents may not be bona-fide actors. There was that example in one of the pieces of that mother who had always wanted a daughter, and then set about trying to turn her son into a girl, and there were numerous other such cases (where it was a lot more about what the parents wanted than about what the child felt).
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Anu Warrier
August 12, 2019
Silver, apples and oranges. You began by talking about ‘woke’ parents, and are now jumping to what activists are saying. Let’s just say that the more strident voices are the ones that are being heard on both sides of the aisle, and that they don’t speak for the majority.
I don’t what kind of gender counseling or consultation you think is appropriate for three year olds.
You can’t seriously think that’s what I suggested? I’m too tired to go up and look at the correct phrasing, but I’m pretty sure that I said that happens in their teens. And again, activists can say what they want about changing genders as young as they want, but isn’t that in the hands of the parents – at that point, and the medical profession? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I haven’t heard – or read – about gender identity counselling or reassignment surgeries for toddlers. Even for children as old as ten, the given wisdom at this point – no matter what any activist may say – is for them to be counselled to wait.
Look, I can cherry pick articles that defend my argument as you can to point out the evils of ‘woke’ parents – again, you’re quoting activists instead of parents in every single post since.
Re: parents who want girls (or boys) and hence thrust gender reassignment surgery on them, I need reliable sources, please. Because, at least here, the parents (or whoever) can want all they want, but they ain’t getting it!
This is crazy talk and why should people like Ms. Burns who are promulgating these views be taken with an ounce of seriousness?
Who said she should? But again, what has an outlier activist got to do with your initial argument about liberal and woke parents?
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Anu Warrier
August 12, 2019
Madan, great points. Let me try and address them, not to rebut your argument, but to clarify my own perceptions of this matter.
I think the point is why is surgery even required for re-assignment of gender if it is indeed a social construct?
Because transgenders want to fit into a society? My thinking on this is, I don’t care if I’m male or female or nothing at all, or trans or gender-fluid. But humankind does not do well in isolation. So whatever I am, I’d like to fit in with my tribe. And therefore, transgenders would like to have gender reassignment to fit in with the gender they identify with, most.
So, again, I think it comes down to choice. Am I allowed to be what I know myself to be? And if I know myself to be male, can I not present myself as one? Or vice-versa? And if that means I need to undergo surgery for a male appendage, then why the brouhaha over it? Finally, doesn’t it come down to ‘My body, my choice’?
Shouldn’t we instead attempt to get to the point where a man behaving in effeminate ways or vice versa is considered ok?
Absolutely! I’ve always felt that such men are discriminated against more than women who are ‘tomboys’. To be a tomboy is seen as a step up, whereas a man who is even slightly effeminate is teased beyond imagination.
Where we don’t put sexual relationships, further, in boxes based on gender orientation and instead accept total fluidity if the person wishes to pursue it?
I agree. Western society is moving towards a more gender-fluid society. All our notions of gender are being rewritten even as we speak. I think the problem with understanding this issue – much less accepting it – is because of the rapidity with which this change has occurred. The LGBTQ+ community has seen a teutonic shift in the way mainstream society sees them. They have tasted blood and hence the clarion call for more change, more rapidly. They want their place in the sun.
Our expanding knowledge of biology and gender and sexuality is also responsible for the ‘T’, ‘Q’ and ‘+’ to be added to the rainbow string.
Sexual fluidity is being recognised as well – people identify as gay or lesbian, bisexual or asexual, transexual and even bi-curious. I’m not sure I’m uptodate on any other form of sexuality that’s presently acknowledged.
That somehow would appear to flow more naturally from leftist gender critique than biologically having to change oneself to ‘look’ woman/man.
This I would disagree with. The expansion of the rainbow string is proof, if proof be needed, that the leftist gender critique is open to shedding their ignorance of accepted norms of gender. If the insistence was on Western stereotypes of male and female, then we would never have had the widespread acceptance of transgenders and trans-sexuals, or even those who identify as neuter gender.
Also, leftist gender critique is leaving the choice open to individuals, not insisting upon a one-size-fits-all-theory. Neither are they insisting on gender reassignment for trans-individuals as a societal need.
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Amit Joki
August 12, 2019
Reading the comment section has always been enlightening and since I am still new and don’t have an strictly labelled ideology in the sense that my views are not based on a certain idealogy but based on the merits of certain issues at hand – issue based ideology or stand if that’s a thing.
Also, I am sure most of you folks have heard of Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson and they are on the same side of the spectrum in the broadest sense in the way how they are against the left.
And they are powerful personalities and I’ve seen them debate eloquently but I don’t want just listen to them winning all the time. I’ve hardly seen them lose any debates but I’ve seen that with students who may not be so articulate in terms of putting forth their arguments.
So who would you suggest I watch from those with left inclinations who are as powerful as the aforementioned gentlemen to get a grasp of how it is in the left.
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Madan
August 12, 2019
@Amit Joki: You have never seen Shapiro or Peterson lose debates because they are usually careful whom they choose to debate. Slavo Zizek put Peterson on the spot by asking him to clarify a word salad and he couldn’t. Andrew Neil, a conservative, triggered Shapiro into waking out of an interview without even trying very hard.
To be clear, I don’t hold a view like all conservatives are intellectually challenged or anything like that. Whether or not I agree with their views, I have more faith in the ability of Thomas Sowell, Pat Buchanan or Roger Scrutton to hold their own in an argument. But if conservatives are in thrall instead of figures like Shapiro or Peterson or, worse still, Milo, then I have to say they aren’t really following their own “facts don’t care about your feelings” maxim.
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Rahul
August 12, 2019
Madan , There is a difference between a man doing effeminate stuff and still identifying as a man., and someone who is biologically a man but identifying as a woman. How that person perceives their gender identity is the key point here.
Amit Joki, why don’t you present Jordan Petersons and Ben Shapiro’s winning arguments here?
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Madan
August 12, 2019
“But humankind does not do well in isolation. So whatever I am, I’d like to fit in with my tribe. And therefore, transgenders would like to have gender reassignment to fit in with the gender they identify with, most.” – This is a good point, indeed. Didn’t think of it that way, that they would still like to fit in with society end of the day.
To be clear, I am not saying gender reassignment surgery is bad. I am all for anybody who wants to, to go through it. I am just wary of it being presented as a panacea and of parents counselling children from an early age to push them in a certain way. And…stuff like this in particular:
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/charlize-theron-children-transgender-jackson-age-girl-boy-a8878686.html
The story sounds innocuous enough on the surface. But…really, at three, her child KNOWS they are not a boy but a girl? And know it well enough to put it out there for public consumption? That’s a very big call. To me, it doesn’t pass the bullshit meter. What if this is instead a top Hollywood actress wanting to keep up on the wokeness quotient with her peers? That she would like to be able to have a child who had gender reassignment to be able to talk about it and describe how open minded and understanding she was in guiding her through it? It doesn’t have to be a superficial motivation; she might have spotted some signs and earnestly believed her child needs help. This may not be how you or I might go about it but I can believe there could be people who do, especially if they feel peer pressure. It may not be very different from the peer pressure that makes South Indian parents push their children into engineering. They are in different ways revealing an aspiration to belong to a certain class of people and a value set. In a similar vein, I have come across articles describing progressives who agonise over whether giving their children the best education they can afford is a ‘hypocrisy’ because it denies minorities the same privilege. Um…not wanting to do the best for your child seems extremely bizarre in the first place and secondly this is like a mirror image of the Trumpian rhetoric where the world is a zero sum game. No, honey, that problem is for the institutions to fix, you don’t bring self harm (harm to your child actually) as a way of compensating.
In short, I think any parental interventions in enabling a child to find their true gender must be very carefully navigated. Ideally, just listen to the child and let them find themselves. I am not sure Charlize did a very responsible thing there by talking about it to the media. Some day in the future, the child is going to get asked about it by their schoolmates and how much will they appreciate it then. This is all the more reason why I think there’s more to it than meets the eye in this story. And while it is certainly not ALL stories of gender reassignment, I don’t have trouble believing there are more such out there. And I can’t help but feeling in at least some cases, the child is going to end up being collateral damage at the hands of parents who got sucked into taking virtue signalling too seriously.
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Eswar
August 12, 2019
Amit Joki: The person that immediately comes to my mind is Sam Harris. Have you already seen that discussion? I have started listening but never completed it for other reasons. I wanted some one like Sam Harris to take on Jordan Peterson. I don’t think Sam Harris is on the left of the spectrum, but his views about religion and how it should be read is opposite to that of Peterson. Looks like the debate ended in an impasse. But I think it should be an interesting discussion. https://samharris.org/podcasts/what-is-true/.
I have listened Jordan Peterson talking to Russ Roberts of Econ Talk about Peterson’s book ‘12 Rules of Life’ and I liked the discussion. Russ had a focussed conversation and don’t remember dwelling into controversial topics. http://www.econtalk.org/jordan-peterson-on-12-rules-for-life/
And +1 for Thomas Sowell. I liked his book Intellectuals and Race. I am not well versed in that topic but he seem to have laid out his case succinctly and to argue against it requires a lot of reading and understanding on the subject.
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Madan
August 12, 2019
“There is a difference between a man doing effeminate stuff and still identifying as a man., and someone who is biologically a man but identifying as a woman. How that person perceives their gender identity is the key point here.” – The difference itself largely exists because of gender stereotypes. What if we said your gender identity is yours to have and society will be indifferent to it? We may then see that difference dissolve. It is because we have a set of gender based expectations of behaviour that a man who feels like a woman also feels the need to identify as such. I am saying we need to get to the point where that distinction is irrelevant.
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Amit Joki
August 12, 2019
Rahul: I simply asked for such personalities so I could go through their views as well. Just because I brought two names up doesn’t mean that I endorse their views. I didn’t even mention about the ongoing discussions here when I said winning. When I meant winning, I said it generally as YouTube is projecting.
My whole comment was an exercise for me to know other enlightening personalites who could shed some light on views on both sides, because I know there’s bias.
I saw Andrew Niel interview and I am thinking Ben got irritated by the fact that his tweets which to his own admission were dumb and bad when taken out of context, but he did lose his shit, he kinda stuck onto the point on returning to dark ages but that does make the dialog difficult when you announce it like that. I actually hoped for an answer but that judgemental tone before even asking his opinion sidetracked the whole thing.
It is like prefacing every question to James Gunn like so: “You’ve had pretty serious problems with some sexual jokes, proceeds to pick one of his tweets Now do you think that tweet has an influence over X you’re doing now?” He’s obviously going to be miffed if you do it over again and again.
But Ben did lose it. No two ways about it but Andrew Niel had an higher ground before the interview even started because he would ridicule Ben but acted as a “mediator” without taking a stand so it eventually became professional mud slinging.
I would have been mightily impressed if he actually debated and won.
Also thanks for the other names, Madan and Eswar. I will look them up. I don’t know how the YouTube demography has evolved over the years but these “stars” are more prominent than some of the other ones which is worse because it will become a channel to force the public discourse into one direction.
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praneshp
August 12, 2019
@Amit: Ben Shapiro is an excellent debater. I’d expect him to “win” most debates he is in, regardless of whether he knows anything about the topic, because he plays the rules of the debate, not the topic.
To “beat” him, you need to be an excellent debater first, an authority on the topic next. A recent highly-visible example of that is his interview with Andrew Neil on BBC0. Another example of someone holding their own against him is Bill Maher, who ticks those boxes himself.
An example of an anti-Shapiro on the conservative side is Thomas Sowell. A started book I can recommend his book about economic facts and fallacies 2, it’s a terrific read.
Fwiw, I think understanding the typical american hype-cycle might be useful here. Saying a lot of extreme things about the sexy-topics-of-the-day gets you a lot of eyeballs, which sells tv shows/books, etc. These folks tend to vanish once the hype goes down. I won’t fault them for making the most out of their few years of fame.
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praneshp
August 12, 2019
Sorry wordpress mangled my comment. The links are
0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VixqvOcK8E
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGcdPakoytg
2. https://www.amazon.in/Economic-Facts-Fallacies-Thomas-Sowell/dp/0465022030
Also @Madan I just realized you said the same thing as my comment. Sorry about that!
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Madan
August 12, 2019
” I actually hoped for an answer but that judgemental tone before even asking his opinion sidetracked the whole thing.” – Well, a good interviewee resists the baits and answers the questions instead. I have watched Rajat Gupta stay unflappable and stick to his line in the face of very tough (much tougher than what Shapiro got) interrogation over 50 minutes. So it says more about Shapiro’s lack of mental maturity relative to his age (his mirror image on the left is that walking wicket called Owen Jones).
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Arjun
August 12, 2019
“Secondly, lets not get our resentment of “being woke” and “politically correct” get in the way of second guessing the parents, and assuming that they are putting their children’s lives in danger because of their political ideology. ”
This is a strange argument. Parents are also susceptible to peer pressure from their social circles and do often put their children’s live in danger due to their irrational convictions – e.g. the anti-vaccination hysteria. And the “science” on the so-called “gender spectrum” and sexual dysphoria is on atleast as shaky grounds as the science on the dangers of vaccination.
“@Arjun – yes, trans ‘lobbies’ do put political pressure, I’m not denying that. How does that contradict what I wrote about parents who are open to their child exploring their gender identity?”
You wrote “The fact is that (and scientific studies prove it) there are some children who are very aware that they are not born into the ‘right’ body by the time they are three or four. And I simply called bullshit on that.
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praneshp
August 12, 2019
@Amit Joki:
That’s it, you caught Shapiro’s typical strategy! Just that this time he came up against someone better at it that he is.
Yep, it’d be interesting to see Ben Shapiro do that once as well 🙂
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Anu Warrier
August 12, 2019
You wrote “The fact is that (and scientific studies prove it) there are some children who are very aware that they are not born into the ‘right’ body by the time they are three or four. And I simply called bullshit on that.
Fair enough, especially about the anti-vac crowd. And I will not argue your view – that’s as right from where you stand as my view is from my perspective.
But in my personal experience, I have seen at least two kids, one three and the other about 4.5 years when I met him, who were very, very clear about their gender. And it wasn’t their biological one. Their parents are as baffled, and not being very clear about gender fluidity themselves, are kinda-sorta waiting things out to see how it goes. And at least in the middle of the curve – i.e., neither ‘conversion therapy’ nor ‘gender reassignment’ extremes – many parents are like them.
@Madan – Having witnessed it myself, in two kids from different families (and one of them as conservative as can be), I would say – cautiously – Yes, kids as young as three do sometimes know they are not in the right bodies for them. And it is not as simple as wanting to play with ‘girl toys’ and/or dressing up in girls’ clothes (or vice versa), which they may or may not grow out of. It is that deep feeling inside that you’re somebody else.
And all I can say is hats off to Charlize for raising her child the way she wants to be raised. Whether s/he will grow up to identify as a woman is not for her to decide, and I like that she’s leaving that door open. Acceptance is key, even if you do not understand it. And in the case of the conservative parents I mentioned, they do not understand it, they do not like it, but they love their child and in the end, that love and acceptance matters.
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silverambrosia
August 12, 2019
Anu: I quoted directly from you, when you spoke about three year olds being “very aware that they were not born into the right body”. Arjun has also quoted it. There are no apples and oranges here. The woke parents we are talking about are being heavily influenced by the gender theories and ideologies being propagated by certain trans-activists. The articles I linked earlier mentioned the kind of cues these parents were acting on:
“I spoke to Linda at Mermaids, a support group in London formed in 1995 by parents of transgendered children.She told me that this group supports parents who have children who do not ‘fit in’ with ‘gender roles.’ I ask what she meant exactly by ‘fitting in’ and Linda explains, ‘If you are a little girl who behaves like a boy, you will want to have your hair short, to play with the boys. Even at play group they will be different…they will be picked on and those are the problems.’ I tell Linda that many little girls will have short hair and play with boys—I was one of those little girls.”
These are the kind of early “grounds” upon which a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is being made. It is seriously wrong to do this to children. Here is the account of one parent who was devastated by his daughter’s decision to transition:
“I was shocked when my thirteen-year-old daughter told me she was really my transgender son. She had no masculine interests and hated all sports. But as a smart, quirky teen on the autism spectrum, she had a long history of not fitting in with girls.
Where did she get the idea she was transgender? From a school presentation—at a school where over 5 percent of the student body called themselves trans or nonbinary, and where several students were already on hormones, and one had a mastectomy at the age of sixteen. In my daughter’s world—in real life and online—transgender identities are common, and hormones and surgeries are no big deal.
I took her to a gender clinician seeking expert guidance. Instead, he accepted her new identity and told me I must refer to my daughter with masculine pronouns, call her by a masculine name, and buy her a binder to flatten her breasts. He recommended no therapy, and there was no consideration of the social factors that obviously affected her thinking. I was directed to put her on puberty blocking drugs. I was falsely assured that these drugs were well-studied, and that they were a perfectly safe way for her to “explore gender.” I was told that if I did not comply, she would be at higher risk of suicide.
I have nowhere to go for proper help. Therapists are actively trained and socially pressured not to question these increasingly common identities. In Washington, DC, and many states with so-called conversion therapy bans, questioning a child’s belief that she is of the opposite sex is against the law.
I have been living this nightmare for over four years. And despite my best efforts, my daughter plans to medically transition when she turns eighteen later this year.
Parents like me must remain anonymous to maintain our children’s privacy, and because we face legal repercussions if our names are revealed. Parents who do not support their child’s gender identity risk being reported to Child Protective Services and losing custody of their children. In New Jersey, the Department of Education officially encourages schools to report such parents.
Meanwhile, the media glamorize and celebrate trans-identified children while ignoring stories like mine. I have written to well over 100 journalists, begging them to write about what is happening to kids. I wrote to my representative and senators, but have been ignored by their staff. My online posts about my daughter’s story have been deleted and I have been permanently banned in an online forum. As a lifelong Democrat, I am outraged by my former party and find it ironic that only conservative news outlets have reported my story without bias or censorship.
We parents are ignored and vilified, while our children are suffering in the name of inclusivity and acceptance. I hope that some open-minded Democratic lawmakers will wake up to the fact that they are complicit in harming vulnerable kids. I hope that they ask themselves this question: Why are physicians medicalizing children in the name of an unproven, malleable gender identity? And why are lawmakers enshrining “gender identity” into state and federal laws?”
The whole piece is here: https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2019/02/49686/
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sai16vicky
August 12, 2019
@varsha ganesh:
“This is precisely the problem I have with conservatives. The presumption that they know best what is good and what is wrong, never mind the blithering idiots who make up the rest of society who can’t discern this divide.”
I don’t think this is a problem specific to conservatives. I see this problem with liberals too. They have an elitist feeling thinking they are ‘superior’ beings (intellectually) and treat others as inferior. Anything that they cannot logically comprehend, they start calling it out as BS.
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silverambrosia
August 13, 2019
The cases in the link are of teenagers not children, but the common theme running throughout is that these kids were also socialised into believing that they were actually of the opposite gender; through peers at school or online communities. Some of the parents have indicated that it has been a struggle to even get their stories out. It’s also clear that there is an absence of medically objective, non-ideologically driven government regulation on these transitioning procedures and medications (the effects of which can be irreversible). More on the spurious science underpinning the claims of many of these gender-ideologues, and the chucking out of formerly observed medical safeguards:
https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2019/04/22/the-trans-child-as-experimental-guinea-pig/
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Madan
August 13, 2019
Anu Warrier : Oh, do I believe it is possible? Yes. But at that age, the parent’s job is to neither encourage nor discourage it and just let the child be. That is true acceptance. Not telling the whole world how woke you are for realising your child chose a different gender. We will have to part ways on this. I stand by my belief that it was completely inappropriate for Charlize Theron to broadcast this to media and that she got confused between her role as a mother and as an activist. Before thinking of how much her disclosing this would help other gender confused children, she should have thought about her own.
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Anu Warrier
August 13, 2019
Madan, I don’t think we part ways at all. I completely agree with this statement: But at that age, the parent’s job is to neither encourage nor discourage it and just let the child be. That is true acceptance.
And whiIe I still think Charlize Theron did not say anything too controversial other than she was glad to raise two daughters (there I part ways with you), I agree that, on the whole, I’d much rather respect my child’s privacy and let him/her be the person to declare his/her identity as and when and how s/he chooses.
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Anu Warrier
August 13, 2019
@ Silver – I’m sorry that mother is going through so much despair. Yes, it is hard to accept that a child who was born a girl (or boy) feels that s/he is not his/her biological gender. But from where I stand, understanding the woman’s despair, I still feel that for her to decide that her daughter got the idea of trans from her school presentation is tosh! That comes from her inability to accept her daughter’s transition.
From what I’ve heard/read from many trans-kids, they ‘know’ there’s something wrong with their biological bodies, but are not sure what or why they feel the way they do. Learning that they are trans is a like a light switch going on. And that’s when they begin to understand their discomfort with their gender. And that’s what most likely happened here.
While I’m sorry for the woman’s distress, whether her child transitions or not is not up to her. She doesn’t have to like it but she does have to accept it because that right there, is one of the main reasons for the high rate of suicides among trans children. The lack of acceptance. The parents’ ‘best efforts’ to negate a child’s lived reality.
Are all children who feel this gender crisis going to transition? No. Many of them who feel that way during their teens slip back into their biological genders and feel comfortable. Some continue to feel gender dysphoria but do not transition, either due to lack of finances or because they don’t want to fight a long battle to transition. Some transition and go through the immense pain and invasive surgery to finally have the body they feel the most comfortable in.
I think the gender clinician she went to was a bad one ; however, why did she not get a second opinion? Ask for counselling services for both her and her child? If she went in, wanting the gender clinician to tell her daughter to remain a girl, then she was barking up the wrong tree. That’s not the clinician’s job. However, it is the clinician’s job to ensure they have the correct information, and to refer them to counselling services.
And of course, conservative outlets would love to publish her story – they have the ammunition to sock it to the liberals! And to keep to their agenda of only two genders, only a man and woman should marry, one should only have sex after marriage (but marriage is only for procreation), and no one should have birth control because, abstinence! Please don’t run away with the idea that conservative outlets published her story because they were unbiased. This story fits their agenda. (All media has bias, no matter what their political leanings.)
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Anu Warrier
August 13, 2019
p.s. I don’t know if you live in the US, but the National Review is an ultra-rightwing paper that will tailor the story to suit their agenda. And since trans or even LGBTQ+ rights are at their lowest in conservative strongholds, I’ll take their stories with a bushel of salt.
Give me a link to a respected centrist narrative like The HIll offers. Or better still, a link from respectable conservative newspaper/magazines (WSJ, Chicago Tribune) and I’ll at least read the article for a different perspective.
I generally tend to look at the far-right and the far-left (Daily Kos, and their ilk) with the same bias – their agendas are front and foremost; the news comes later. A little to the left or a little to the right generally gives me a better idea of the views on both sides.
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Eswar
August 13, 2019
@SilverAmbrosia: The concerns you have raised are valid on its own. I wonder though if it is that easy to get gender reassignment done on Children. The NHS in UK says Most treatments offered at this stage are psychological, rather than medical or surgical. They also say that the majority of children with suspected gender dysphoria don’t have the condition once they reach puberty.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/. So I am doubtful of the number of gender reassignment surgeries happening in reality.
I suppose you are also concerned about the gender identity exposure the kids have at a very young age. If so, do you also have a recommendation what should be done? Especially, the parents whose kids show these tendencies, what is expected of them? While taking simple decisions, on behalf of children, can be stressful and sometimes have lasting impact, to have to take a decision as complicated as gender identity sounds daunting. In this context not doing anything at all about the child’s behaviour is still a decision to be made. What should these parents do? There is no way to know the outcome of the decisions they make today. I am not talking about activist parents or parents who are exposed to the gender debate. But an average parent concerned about the wellbeing of their child, who is facing a situation where they have to make these life changing decisions.
The challenge is in identifying that fine line where these parents and their children are not trampled by the activists and their opposites. Though I doubt if this is even achievable as these parents are unlikely to fall under either of the narratives.
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uniquebluerose
August 13, 2019
Great review…Brangan
@Rahini Love your comment……had me smiling
as for the pick up line part does friend-zoning me with hope we can be err more than friends but I prefer conservative girl esp those who are not feminists count????
What about ‘You are my best buddy….” “You behave more like a guy…hey its compliment” though why should it be seen as compliment is beyond me….
@Brangan I have huge crush on you…is it a good or bad pick up line????
As for this movie…not yet watched….not sure can before it starts streaming online…but yes liked “Pink” a lot, loved “Anarkali of Aarah” even better….
Though No means no…doesn’t seem be great fans down south ….No Offense or pun intended.
I don’t think all the people who object to these girls are conservative, the problem is with “moral policing” if it can be called that…”fake conservative”
The people who feel its right that anything bad happens to girls (or any one) who doesn’t think like them are dangerous as well as scary…..the tweeple or South Indian tweeple are largely occupied by these people…its scary
As for this becoming a Box office…yes it may
@Brangan do you feel it becoming BO hit shows people are more accepting of this movie….or the theme of the movie or rather does it show ….we want Thala/Thalapathy movie to be a hit…heck to the story/theme or other aspects of the movie.
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silverambrosia
August 13, 2019
Anu: It may be a conservative news outlet but is anything they have reported factually incorrect? E.g. The content about established medical standards and safeguards being thrown to the winds and the politicization of healthcare in large parts of the US? They will have their own ideological position or slant, but are any of their statements factually false?
“While I’m sorry for the woman’s distress, whether her child transitions or not is not up to her. She doesn’t have to like it but she does have to accept it because that right there, is one of the main reasons for the high rate of suicides among trans children.”
The risk of suicide does not diminish post-transition, it may in fact substantially increase.
“When ‘the tumult and shouting dies,’ it proves not easy nor wise to live in a counterfeit sexual garb. The most thorough follow-up of sex-reassigned people—extending over 30 years and conducted in Sweden, where the culture is strongly supportive of the transgendered—documents their lifelong mental unrest. Ten to 15 years after surgical reassignment, the suicide rate of those who had undergone sex-reassignment surgery rose to 20 times that of comparable peers.”
The article I have extracted this quote is also from a conservative outlet, but it is bases it conclusions upon research conducted by various universities, research institutes and even bodies set up and administered by Democrat governments such as the Medicare and Medicaid Services. I think it’s certainly worth looking at:
https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/sex-reassignment-doesnt-work-here-the-evidence
Easwar: For a pre-pubescent child, I certainly don’t think parents should be suggesting gender-transition as a prospective option. Again, we’re talking about removal of a healthy young person’s functional organs and replacement with non-functional substitutes, and a lifetime of hormonal treatments and medical procedures (many of which are risky and the effects of which are not fully known yet). And by undertaking this surgery will that boy actually become a girl, will his chromosomes change, will he acquire all the bodily functions women have, will he be able to have children or breastfeed? By telling a boy that if he wants to be a girl, he can actually become a girl, are we not lying to and misleading that child, or cocooning the child from certain realities? And will transitioning even help that child or young adult in the long-run? The answer to this last question is far from clear. The article I have linked in this comment is instructive in this regard. Do have a look at it.
This whole debate affects a tiny minority of children, but the numbers have been increasing exponentially in the last few years, and are likely to shoot up with the introduction of content on gender fluidity in school curriculums. E.g. See the following:
https://www.scotsman.com/news-2-15012/primary-one-children-will-be-told-your-gender-is-what-you-decide-1-4779133
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praneshp
August 13, 2019
@silver heritage foundation is unlikely to live up to Anu’s standards. It doesn’t live up to even my standards.
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Rad Mahalikudi
August 13, 2019
As humans, it is easy to comprehend the fact that there is a spectrum / distribution when it comes to traits like height, size of eyes, colour of eyes, skin colour etc. We don’t have social constructs similar to gender stereotyping, in to two – male/female, when it comes to height. We do a flexible definition of short and tall for height but it is relative depending on where you live. Yes, parents do worry about height but don’t go to an extreme of surgeries to fix the height (I haven’t heard of that yet) except for giving that Giraffe tonic (!!) to children if they feel they are not growing tall enough. Similarly for skin colour or eye colour. For this discussion, let’s not get in to discrimination based on colour and height.
When it comes to gender, the challenge we have IMO is it is not easy to comprehend that it is also spectrum similar to height and skin colour. When it comes to gender, it is not just physically visible traits, it also has internal feelings and hormones that we can’t see. We can notice outliers and observe few noticeable behaviours, man having a woman’s voice (wrt our social construct) but we can’t visibly observe the spectrum similar to height. if Sex selecting gene (XY, XX) aligns with rest of the switches then we will get our “Complete Man” as in Kumbalangi nights or the complete Woman. In nature that is not the case. Not all the switches are going to be aligned and it is a mix. Even though we bucket male and female looking at physical markings, not all of them are going to be perfect male or female. Due to social conditioning, as we become adults we choose one and move on. Those who can’t, probably due to high misalignment, suffer in our society. Due to our incomprehension, they resort or forced to undergo complicated surgeries and other treatments. This is my limited understanding based on reading various writings on genetics.
People do go to corrective measures for colour, and other physical features, but when it comes to gender, it gets extreme since religious values also jumps in.
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Eswar
August 13, 2019
@SilverAmbrosia: Thanks for that link. Even keeping aside the surgical procedures, these parents still need some form of support I suppose? For that to be in place, the discussion should happen. But I can also see how this is going to make parenting lot more difficult in the coming years. But again difficult parenting is not a strong reason for this conversation to not happen. And then there is this thing that at what point a society enters into someone’s house and dictate what they should do with their kids. For something like vaccination, the impact is quite clear. But for something like gender advocacy I am not sure if we can measure that yet.
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Anu Warrier
August 13, 2019
Silver – I haven’t read the studies that the Heritage article mentioned. I’ll reserve judgement after I read them for myself. Because Heritage is known to cherry pick parts of studies to suit the slant they want to give.
The science is complex and still in its infancy. I’m guessing we won’t have any concrete solutions in the immediate future. In the long run, all I can hope is that these children and young adults get the counselling and help they need.
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Kay
August 14, 2019
And by undertaking this surgery will that boy actually become a girl, will his chromosomes change, will he acquire all the bodily functions women have, will he be able to have children or breastfeed?
There are many such examples of transpersons getting pregnant and having babies. Many articles are available online.
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Anu Warrier
August 14, 2019
@Pranesh – LOL. I was being diplomatic. Or trying to. 🙂
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abishekspeare
August 14, 2019
Spoilers ahead…
I realised only now why he has twins in the flashback. He becomes responsible for the loss of three lives because of his job as a lawyer. Hence, him ‘saving’ THREE other lives in the future as a lawyer is more poetic.
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sanjana
August 14, 2019
https://indianexpress.com/article/lifestyle/life-style/west-bengal-first-transgender-couple-wedding-criticism-strong-assertions-of-choice-5903539/
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Silverambrosia
August 14, 2019
Kay: The cases of transgender men who have become pregnant are cases of women who have sought to transition into men. I’m not aware of cases the other way around: where a person who is biologically male, transitioned into a woman and then become pregnant. There is talk of womb transplant, but I’m not aware of any successful cases of a transgender woman (biological male who has transitioned into a woman) giving birth to a child yet.
Pranesh p and Anu: u guys are just dissing the sources and refusing to engage with the arguments. The sources may have their own ideological bent and bias, but are the things contained within them factually wrong? Is there not a politicisation of healthcare going on in various parts of the US, where established medical precedent and good practice is being overridden through the pressure exerted by ideologues. Can parents not have minors removed from their custody, if they question that child’s announced gender identity in certain states? Is there not something very wrong about this?
Do you find any of the statements in the Heritage article to be scientifically unsound, or objectionable on medical grounds? He refers to university research, the findings of which have been reported in left media outlets such as The Guardian. In the UK, child trans lobby groups pushing for policy changes are making assertions that run strongly counter to established medical knowledge and practice.
Easwar: Presumably there are qualified medical professionals, and child specialists who can help these families. These professionals should be allowed to do thier jobs and not be pressured/bullied into prescribing certain outcomes for vulnerable children
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Honest Raj
August 14, 2019
but the problem is Ajith is very mediocre even by tamil cinemas standards.. I also felt may be Madhavan would have done a better job than Ajith.
At the risk of defending Ajith, I say this:
Only in Tamil cinema would somebody like Madhavan be considered a ‘good’ actor.
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praneshp
August 14, 2019
@silver: I don’t want to get dragged into this shitshow of a topic, so I’ll just say one thing: This is not 2+2=4, you don’t know anything about the science here either. So the source is very important, you need to be 100% certain that they will not quote junk science, they will not quote the 5% of research that suits their viewpoint, etc.
If I were to pick a slice of time and write a blogpost about it, I can argue that vaccination is dangerous, and cite Andrew Wakefield. That would set off your bullshit detector, no?
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Anu Warrier
August 15, 2019
Silver – what Pranesh said.
Plus, what I am saying is that I want to read the studies that Heritage is quoting in their entirety before I make up my mind. That’s wrong? I’m supposed to take what Heritage cherry picks to quote as the be-all and end-all of the topic? Without also talking into account their very well-known bias against transgenders and the wider LGBTQ+ community?
They don’t have to ‘falsify’ the research – just pick and choose what statements they want to focus on, while also removing the context.
I refuse to engage in an argument which decides for me that I should agree to that view because you cite sources, without>/i> allowing me to read the sources cited by that very same article so I can make up my own mind.
Can parents not have minors removed from their custody, if they question that child’s announced gender identity in certain states? Is there not something very wrong about this?
There would be, if that were true. And this is what I meant by slant and bias. Heritage is a right-wing, fear-mongering, conspiracy-spouting site which uses bits and pieces of information devoid of context to make their points for them. And the view they present is coloured to make stoke the bigotry that the trans community endures.
Here’s the mainstream version of that same story, if you’re even interested.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/13/health/transgender-teen-medical-custody-fight/index.html
Given that you take the sources you cite to be 100% accurate as regarding the science, etc., I’m not holding my breath. We are basically going round and round the mulberry bush at this point, so I’ll drop my end of the rope here.
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silverambrosia
August 15, 2019
Praneshp: No one dragged you in. You inserted yourself into the discussion. If, as a matter of policy, schools in certain parts of the world are going to teach small children that their gender is whatever they choose it to be, then that is a big departure from the past and people have every right to ask questions. It’s a subject that deserves robust discussion and your designating it a “shitshow” is immaterial. Kids being taught to be uncertain about their gender (a kind of induced gender dysphoria) and undergoing lifelong surgeries and treatments to an uncertain end, may be something you’re OK with. Most people aren’t and you’re welcome to leave if you don’t want to participate in this.
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praneshp
August 15, 2019
@silver: Sorry, I should have been clearer. I’m denying your topic is important, or that it needs talking about in the places it’s happening. I just called your contribution to this topic a shitshow.
Citation required.
I came here to read about a review of my thala’s movie. I see some unrelated nonsense being talked about. I’ll leave if rangan asks me to fuck off.
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silverambrosia
August 15, 2019
Anu: I never said that you had to believe in that article. In fact, I asked you if it was wrong. No alternative studies or articles postulating something different or discounting the Heritage article were suggested by you. Which is fine, I get that comments on blogs can be a time-sucker. And many of the things I was talking about, changes in laws, the right of the state to remove minors from the parent, if the parents questioned the child’s newly announced gender identity did not pertain to science.
I’m not a doctor myself but I’m surrounded by doctors in the family and I do talk to them. I can try and educate myself on issues of contemporary importance, and read into the science. Postulating an opinion on a blog doesn’t mean a person is claiming to be an authority on something. Anyways I’ve had enough of this thread. Have a good upcoming weekend 🙂
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Isai
August 15, 2019
“I came here to read about a review of my thala’s movie. I see some unrelated nonsense being talked about. I’ll leave if rangan asks me to fuck off.”
If the comments didn’t interest or make sense to you, you could have just ignored them and scrolled down. Why contribute, argue AND THEN dismiss it as nonsense? I liked how Madan responded ‘We will have to part ways on this.’ when he had a disagreement. Wish others could use such language instead of resorting to name calling.
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therag
August 17, 2019
Like Amazon carries a “Verified Purchase”, I think this blog should carry a “This person actually watched the film” tag to help hapless readers sort through all the endless conservative-liberal internet stranger battles.
Or support threaded conversations.
Disclaimer: I have not watched this film.
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Rahul
August 17, 2019
Arjun –
“This is a strange argument. Parents are also susceptible to peer pressure from their social circles and do often put their children’s live in danger due to their irrational convictions – e.g. the anti-vaccination hysteria. ”
No, that was not my point. Will parents do something to endanger the life of their kids if they KNOW and believe something to be dangerous – just because of peer pressure?
“And the “science” on the so-called “gender spectrum” and sexual dysphoria is on atleast as shaky grounds as the science on the dangers of vaccination.”
Again, your analogy does not quite work . What exactly do you want science to decide? That a child will grow out of gender dysphoria at a certain age? That a child will not attempt suicide during the period that he is suffering from gender dysphoria? Is there even a chance that science can be as opinionated about gender dysphoria as about vaccination ?. In such a situation what a parent understands about the kid and what the kid thinks about his gender identity is of prime importance.
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Rahul
August 17, 2019
Madan, are you saying that transgenders will cease to exist if there were no set societal expectations from gender roles? Societal roles are only one part of gender identity. People will still identify as male\female if there was no society.
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Madan
August 18, 2019
” are you saying that transgenders will cease to exist if there were no set societal expectations from gender roles?” – No, never said that. Only said that the imperative for a person to have to undergo sex change via a medical procedure could be reduced IF society was gender fluid as a whole. They could still do it if they chose to but it would be a decision brought on by intrinsic motivations and not external peer pressure. But we are not there today, evidently, because a man who says he feels woman within will not be taken on his word.
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Amit Joki
August 19, 2019
If we could remove our identity from our work, so our intellectual abilities can be quantamized in a scalar fashion, it will help remove lots of prejudices and bias, atleast in fields where intellectual or cognitive skills are concerned.
Lots of workplace discrimination would cease to exist if everyone adopted a strict work-from-home policy with only the work which is to be judged submitted.
Steven Spielberg’s Ready Player One is a fantastic film whose technology could actually be used in future to remove any or all types of bias. Utopia and idealistic yes, but surely a way forward if it could actually be implemented in a decentralized manner.
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Arjun
August 20, 2019
“In such a situation what a parent understands about the kid and what the kid thinks about his gender identity is of prime importance.”
Ah. “Feelings” over science and biology. Got it.
In other news, “Transgender cricketer reignites row over who should be allowed to play women’s sports after becoming a star for her Kent team”. Lol
“https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7369619/Kent-transgender-cricketer-reignites-row-allowed-play-womens-sports.html?fbclid=IwAR043OsXHEm0Hvqrbv1WVeag47P36mdu5dt76-766aYV4aeKPmE-J1ZvLJ8
“Fair Play For Women said the policy was unfair at a time when the game is improving opportunities for female players.
Dr Nicola Williams, director of the group, said: ‘Female-only teams are vital to uphold fair competition for women in cricket.
‘Opening up the women’s game to cross-dressing males who do nothing more than ‘identify as a woman’ shows utter contempt for the women’s game.
‘The ECB say they are proud of their ‘inclusive policy’ when in reality this policy will exclude women from their own game.”
Feminists Vs trans activists. Bring it on, I say. Grabs popcorn
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Rahul
August 20, 2019
Arjun –
“Ah. “Feelings” over science and biology. Got it.”
You keep bringing up science again and again. I doubt you yourself know what you are trying to imply. Are you saying being trans is not a thing , because it is against “science and biology”?
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Amit Joki
August 20, 2019
Arjun: I feel like sports which don’t have physical categories should have one. In women’s racing, people should compete in the cateogry their physicality slots them in because transwoman are inherently at an advantage over their “women who identify as women” colleagues.
Or instead of supressing testosterone levels, that could be categorized too like how there’s a weight category in boxing. That would level the playing field by some degree.
Also I’ve seen various men who have now identified as women win comfortably but I personally am yet to see a woman who has identified as a man winning the sport. Are there instances such as these? I’d like to know about them.
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Isai
August 20, 2019
“Also I’ve seen various men who have now identified as women win comfortably but I personally am yet to see a woman who has identified as a man winning the sport. Are there instances such as these? I’d like to know about them.”
Why would a woman, even a woman who identifies as a man, compete with men in a sport where men have an inherent advantage due to more testosterone, muscle mass etc. Till today women compete in separate categories for even indoor games like carrom or chess which give no inherent ‘physical’ advantage to men. I don’t see any feminist complain about this or any other differentiation/discrimination that unduly benefits women.
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The Crustacean
August 26, 2019
It’s been a long time since a drama actually captivated you.
Drama surely does, and must have did, because before the action movies took over and reduced it to farce, movies and stories were about drama, about people in situations they could not shake off but could only manage.
Nerkonda Parvai is howdunit packaged as drama, and has so much effective writing that you could consider this India’s version of “How to Kill a Mocking Bird”
And the writing brushes off its stars, that on reflection you could not find anything wrong with its casting, a rarity. Even Ajith, never ever convincing, despite his superstar status and years in this industry, makes this movie his own.
He brings character into what is essentially a study of character, he is the lawyer that young boys ought to grow to, he is the ideal lawyer of old that actually fought against injustices rather than fight each other, in court, and in Chennai, on the streets.
For a first in Tamil, whatever be its roots, the writing does not flinch away from the frailties of human character, and that it does so without resorting to the cheap is a high point of writing skills.
You know they are wrong, that this happened, and that there is no clear villain, that everyone acted in the heat of the moment, all this is laid out, and Ajith has to do what he has to do.
To find out beneath this essentially human accident a semblance of villainy, which he finds is less in the act itself but more in the after. And that is where the story actually comes to life, without moralizing, in carrying out the process of justice it sees that justice is actually done.
It is a high wire act on very thin wire, and Ajith actually carries it off with a panache that wouldn’t have worked for any other star. He is aptly supported by a very natural Shradda Srinath, who hits all the notes correctly, she plays the modern girl, willing to risk it, and willing to take on the consequences.
There is this small segment, when the house owner comes to visit them, and he is embarrassed to bring this up, but the girls know that he knows but not how he knows.
Notice Shradda’s eyes go from feeling surprise to feeling guilt to looking for escape, and wow…
Also the girl who played the North East girl, her eyes hit the right notes even when her accent doesn’t. Vidya Balan does what she ought to, in a very short cameo, she reminds one of those old heroines like Sri Devi who made short work of acting, over acting, and everything in between.
The guys too, the homely looking boy in the group who always goes farthest, the guy who mixes fun and danger together, the well meaning guy, they even eclipse a senior actor like JP, who is not really up to the task here.
Mention should be made of the judge too, and the police women, in the glory of the writing, they come off not only good, but well rounded.
In a typical Tamil film, the families would have made short work of their wards, and there would have been polemic and messages given to the audience, here thankfully here the families are treated with the acceptance and maturity that they usually show off screen.
The camera stays where it should, at least in the court scenes, the editing is unhurried, and allows us to appreciate the nuances of drama and character. Ajith, while taking his own time to get up comes off as fumbled when he ought to, but then his deliberate slowness acquires majesty as the drama moves on.
I hope that if they are looking for a National award for him, then this would probably be a right time to do that. Perhaps his last chance too…
Yuvan proves that he cannot do hip hop, he is too old for that. The rest of the work is OK.
Ajith’s take on bipolar anger does not convince JP, it does not convince us too, but given the effort they seem to have put into the stunt choreography, it needs a high five. So too, for the stage they set up in the initial portion, for the hip hop song, I wondered if I was in a foreign movie.
Shradda seems a bit lost here, her costume and attitude do not match at all, but once the drama picks up she comes to her own. It is only the girl who played Famita who over does things a bit, but then in afterthought it seems well designed, she has her own reasons.
She must have hit her peak when she confesses, as a ruse, to taking money, but where she actually hits the high is when her family member embraces her, in the end, once they are victorious.
In all a very satisfying move, and it is to the credit of the director and the writers that they left the best for last, the audience actually waited out the credits. The how dun it was that effective.
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The Crustacean
August 26, 2019
A special note is to be made of Rangaraj Pandey’s foray into acting.
He is a natural, at least for this role, he plays it just right.
Reminded me of those movies where Sivaji played a lawyer, that grand standing, that confidence that he was built for success and will succeed. I did wish that in places where he was dominant they could have angled the camera a little up, to establish his villainy kind of.
But then the writing and the writers probably ended up doing the right thing by showing that he was only doing what he was supposed to, in playing with dirt, he was not essentially dirty.
Good work, Pandey
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Siva
August 30, 2019
Here is a new development related to the multitude of digressed discussions in this page 🙂
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/first-tn-govt-bans-sex-reassignment-surgeries-intersex-infants-and-children-108025
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