Simplifying CAB and NRC

Posted on December 18, 2019

215

Posted in: Personal, Politics

215 Responses “Simplifying CAB and NRC” →

brangan

December 18, 2019

This was the clearest explanation of the implications of CAB / NRC I found, and I wanted to share it here and see if people want to talk about it.

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Kay

December 18, 2019

I’m so glad you started this discussion. I can see India treading the same path as Germany did all those decades ago. Central government has been autocratic in the way they have handled the Kashmir issue and now this. NOW is the time to act. It’s only the neutral people, those who are silent because it’s not affecting them, because they find it inconvenient to protest or are too scared to, that are going to be the deciding factors for this change. And that part of the population forms a HUGE number.

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Deepak

December 18, 2019

Who is a citizen of India?

As per the Citizenship Act, 1955, every person born in India:

(a) on or after the 26th day of January 1950, but before the 1st day of July 1987;

(b) on or after the 1st day of July 1987, but before the commencement of the Citizenship (Amendment) Act, 2003 and either of whose parents is a citizen of India at the time of his birth;

(c) on or after the commencement of the Citizenship (Amendment) Act, 2003, where-

(i) both of his parents are citizens of India; or

(ii) one of whose parents is a citizen of India and the other is not an illegal migrant at the time of his birth, shall be a citizen of India by birth.

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Madan

December 18, 2019

Whilst a noble initiative on your part, BR saar, I fear this will set the blog ablaze much the way Assam is burning. In b4 the screams of misinformation and motivated propaganda.

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Madan

December 18, 2019

Kay: speaking of Germany, I am gladdened by the response of the students which has been more akin to 1960s America. They have fearlessly belled the cat and asked the emperor what the colour of his clothes is. As for those who have heaped hateful invective on the students, whether they be acquaintances, friends or relatives, I am not sure I will be able to have the same kind of relationship as before with them again. There is zero evidence that the students were the ones who have burnt property, it was miscreants who were arrested. Hasn’t stopped people from suggesting the students asked for it.

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Deepak

December 18, 2019

Going by the above citizenship act, not all Muslims would be impacted. Muslims born after 1987 for someone who’s not an Indian citizen / illegal immigrant would not be considered Indian citizen.

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sai16vicky

December 18, 2019

Hoping that I can post a detailed comment later this week but here’s the deal — we have to curb illegal immigration at any cost and we need a starting point. CAB and NRC is that starting point. As to why consider only the aforementioned communities, first of all they are minorities in the mentioned countries. Someone has to protect them and we are not doing anything new — (1) Israel has a ‘Law of Return’ for Jews (2) Many African countries have naturalization laws for their majority (3) Middle-Eastern countries (e.g., Kuwait).

Now, coming to leaving out Muslims in this part, note that the nations in consideration are muslim majority in the first place. We could obviously convince the respective countries to take them back; in fact, as I am writing this answer, Bangladesh has come forward to take back their illegal immigrants

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/south-asia/india-asked-to-provide-list-of-illegal-bangladeshis-if-any-on-its-soil-fm-momen/articleshow/72692482.cms?fbclid=IwAR0-V2F5FjEguBJpJ3wYqPwxWbv0E2-my0vEgsr_bQXqIKQ7zShpQ6jYPbA

For folks wondering that these illegal Muslim immigrants will suffer, they won’t any have any place to go, etc. — I think the first thing to realize is that they are “illegal” immigrants in the first place. A country can only try to accommodate them as much as possible. There is no free lunch, really!

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Salil Palkar

December 18, 2019

Hi BR, are you sure this is right? I’m against CAA because it institutionalises discrimination. But which part of the act says that any Hindu who doesn’t find his/her name in NRC will be granted citizenship? Isn’t it applicable only to those who fled Afghanistan/Bangladesh/Pakistan? Am I missing anything here?

NRC is more anti-poor I believe. It’ll be demonetisation part 2.

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Madan

December 18, 2019

sai16vicky: Explain this to me, though, what happens if a Muslim produces documents showing he is a Hindu and entered India before the cut off date? And what happens if a poor Hindu who actually fled from Pakistan to escape persecution has no documents to show since when he has been in India? I don’t understand why lately people get so blinkered about the practicality (lack of it) of such schemes. Relying on documentation in such a populated country with so many poor people and so much corruption is a disaster to begin with. Then, the NRC exercise in Assam alone took five years and excluded people, Muslims and Hindus alike, living for decades in India. I don’t want to imagine how long a nationwide NRC is going to take and how messy it will be. First let us seal our borders more securely to stem future illegal immigration. How many people who support CAA/NRC have seen our Eastern land borders, I would really like to know this. I have seen both the Indo Nepal border and Indo Bangladesh. It is ridiculously easy to get into India from Nepal and vice versa. Bit more difficult from Bangladesh but security is not much and it can be achieved. I am not even going to get into the optics of the way the CAA has been drafted. Just logistically and practically, this is a non starter. We have seen this movie before with demo. It is time we chose discretion over valour.

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tonks

December 18, 2019

It’s amazing how close to Indian reality the Harry Potter universe was :

http://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2676935439031427&id=100001449916601&scmts=scwspsdd&extid=5ERAvw03IMpG4AKV

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tonks

December 18, 2019

BR : please ignore the first comment, that link will not open for those not on my fb friend list

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vinjk

December 18, 2019

The only thing I have to say on this issue is….

FUCK MODI

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Rahini David

December 18, 2019

For those who are not in tonks fb friends list

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Anu Warrier

December 18, 2019

saivicky – CAB and NRC are the first step indeed – the first step to dehumanising an entire section of the population based on nothing but their religion. If that’s not bigotry, then what is? It is is Islamophobia disguised as nationalism, the Modi-led BJP government’s first step towards a ‘Hindu nation’.

Let me remind you [general ‘you’] that “India” was never a Hindu nation. The ‘Hindustan’ the Bhakts tout was a) named by the Persians b) so-called not because of the religion of Hinduism but named for the ‘residents of the Sindhu’ (‘Hindu’ in Persian) and the lands surrounding that region.

More and more, India is coming to resemble Hitler’s Germany. Yes, I evoke Godwin’s law, but every single sign points to the rise of fascism in India. And I remind the people who remain silent ‘because it doesn’t affect me’ that slience makes you complict in this tyranny.
First they came…
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Whether the Hindu ‘nationalists’ like it or not, Muslims are as much a part of India’s cultural fabric. And this is going to come back to bite us in the end. For you sow the wind and reap the whirlwind.

p.s. No one is saying that free (or open borders) are sensible. Revamp immigration laws. Check immigration. Do all that’s necessary to secure our borders. But don’t disguise your intolerance and bigotry under draconian laws. The colour of bigotry is the same no matter how much you disguise it in grandiloquent ideas (or acronyms).

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nikkie1602

December 18, 2019

There is also something else to consider. The discourse of the protests in the ‘mainland’ have subsumed the ones happening in the north east. The narratives are different, the demands are different though both the protests are against the CAA. These are very complicated issues. And then the violence unleashed by thr Delhi Police coupled with the communciation breakdown in the north east have complicated things further.

For some context,

http://www.raiot.in/you-dont-get-north-east-of-india/

Fuck Modi. Fuck Amit Shah. Sadly I dont see a solution in sight. Thoughts people?

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Anu Warrier

December 18, 2019

@tonks, I just binge-watched and binge-read (in that order) the entire Harry Potter series, and this paragraph is the first thing that popped into my head when I heard about the passing of the bill.

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Rahul

December 18, 2019

The best article that I found on this issue.

https://www.livemint.com/opinion/columns/the-inevitability-of-errors-in-determining-citizenship-11575909663129.html

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Enigma

December 18, 2019

Leftists are quick to drag Hitler and Germany into any discussion, and also throw in meaningless words like ‘fascism’, surrounding Modi and Shah but they wouldn’t open their mouths when it comes to China and Xinjiang. Hello lefties do you know what your beloved China is doing to the Uighurs?

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Honest Raj

December 18, 2019

NRC is more anti-poor I believe.

I don’t think the Hindus will be affected in any way. The Christians are hardly a “threat”, given their minuscule presence. The prime objective of the RSS (and its political progeny) is to keep in check the largest minority group of the country. Of course, that most Indian Muslims are poor is an added bonus for them.

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V

December 18, 2019

One of my friends had married against her parents’ wishes and fled her maternal home 10 years back. Her relationship with them is still sour. She continues to practice Islam, while her husband is a devout Hindu. Neither had to convert.

Now how would she prove her nativity in case NRC+CAA lands her in trouble? Im not very clear on the nitty-gritties of this Act, but if I were in her position now, I’d be having sleepless nights for sure.

Ominous!

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Srinivas R

December 18, 2019

@Saivicky

#1 -for people in NE and specifically in Assam and Tripura ( who face maximum influx of illegal BD Hindus), an illegal immigrant is an outsider. They don’t care about his religion. Heck, they may even look at non-Assamese as outsiders. We could extrapolate this sentiment to whole of NE. We must understand that NE is not emotionally integrated with India fully. Some NE states require ILP for us to visit them ( sort of an internal visa) Past one of half decades have been relatively free of violence, thanks to decades of effort (and mistakes) by multiple governments. This CAA-NRC potentially plants a time bomb to that and for no discernible benefits.

#2- NRC exercise was carried out in Assam. 19 lakh people were identified as illegal immigrants. One of them was a Muslim man who served the Army. There are lakhs of Hindus as well. Some people holed up in detention centers were later released after data verification. Error in the process is inevitable and this whole exercise will require people to leave their day jobs and run from pillar to post in search of documentation. There were cases in each of the two siblings one was sent to detention center and the other was confirmed as a citizen or a kid left alone with the mom in detention center. This comes at great economic and human cost that cannot be wished away.

#3 – The number of persecuted Hindus in India is about 31,000 ( as per IB). So why the massive NRC exercise if we can identify the persecuted Hindus already. Of course the Home minister proudly (and falsely) proclaimed that lakhs of Hindus benefiting from this.

#4 – Bangladesh has over the last decade has been an ally of India. We are unintentionally pissing them of with this hoopla.The foreign minister cancelled a visit to India after announcement of NRC. BD has agreed to take illegal immigrants back.. ..provided India has evidence. So how do we give evidence that a certain illegal immigrant is from BD?

#5 – Does govt have any idea about the number of illegal immigrants. I see all kinds of people in social media claiming that places in Bangalore, Delhi are full of BD immigrants. My question to them always is, why the hell are you not complaining to police? Don’t the police know that such and such area is notorious for illegal immigration and act immedeately? My guesstimate is that 2-3 crore would be the no. of illegal immigrants, 2-3% of the population and the govt wants all of us to go through the NRC exercise?

#6 – Our economy is collapsing. The great Indian Demographic Dividend is collapsing in front of our eyes. Economic slowdown is a national security threat. US,France, Australia and SEA countries are inclined towards us because they see us as a counter weight to China. If our economy slows down further, there will be less incentive for them to support us and less bargaining power diplomatically for India. At a time when economy should be addressed on war footing, why are we wasting time with this?

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Pavitra Venkateswaran

December 18, 2019

It is so heartening to see people like, with such a wide reach, taking a stand on important issues like this.

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Karthik H.S.

December 18, 2019

Not an expert but here’s my understanding.

Literally speaking, CAB should determine who is eligible for NRC in the sense that CAB defines the criteria for calling one an Indian citizen and NRC is a registry of people satisfying these criteria. But as of now, NRC is specific to Assam and CAB is a half-baked mess.
TLDR;
1. NRC is not nationwide but specific to Assam
2. CAB is applicable to foreigners of certain communities from certain countries and doesn’t define who’s a citizen of India.
The whole thing is a comedy of erroneous names.

NRC in Assam has been around since 1951

https://www.asianage.com/india/all-india/310819/from-1947-to-2019-nrc-timeline-shows-milestones-in-assams-history.html

as a solution to the massive influx of refugees from East Pakistan and later, Bangladesh. The Assamese have been relying on NRC to protect their numbers and oust all illegal Bangladeshi immigrants (Hindu, Muslims & everyone). People are reading Islamophobia in this as a massive percentage of the immigrant population is Muslim. However, there are non-Muslim immigrants from Bangladesh and other states of India who have been excluded from NRC. Overall, the implementation has been a mediocre one with several misses (Retired Indian Army officer Mohammad Sanaullah)and lack of clarity (naturalize an illegal immigrant married to a citizen or not).

Citizenship Act, 1955 defines every person born in India:

(a) on or after the 26th day of January 1950, but before the 1st day of July 1987;
(b) on or after the 1st day of July 1987, but before the commencement of the Citizenship (Amendment) Act, 2003 and either of whose parents is a citizen of India at the time of his birth;
(c) on or after the commencement of the Citizenship (Amendment) Act, 2003 as an Indian citizen.

Citizenship (Amendment) Act, 2003, added these criteria –

(i) both of his parents are citizens of India; or
(ii) one of whose parents is a citizen of India and the other is not an illegal migrant at the time of his birth, shall be a citizen of India by birth (see last point in the NRC paragraph).

These are the acts that determine the citizenship in Assam and rest of India.

CAB on the other hand, seems separate from the above act. It is a provision made for Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Buddhist, Parsi and Christian foreigners, who have migrated from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan into India upto 31.12.2014, on account of persecution faced by them due to their religion.
1. Will it impact existing Muslim citizens of India? No.
2. Will it deny citizenship to Muslims from other countries? No
3. Is it applicable to non-Muslim communities in countries like Srilanka, Nepal, etc.? No.

FAQ’s: https://www.oneindia.com/india/setting-the-record-straight-detailed-faq-by-mha-busting-the-false-narrative-around-cab-2998975.html

This is a half-baked mess which cannot rationally explain its necessity or the boundaries drawn by this act. But this also has nothing to do with NRC in Assam or elsewhere.

Finally, all of this seems to be groundwork for a truly nationwide NRC. To quote Amit Shah-“The CAB will come, all refugees will be given citizenship, and after that a National Register of Citizens will be formed. Refugees do not have to worry. Infiltrators will surely have to worry. Understand the chronology: first CAB, then NRC”. How they plan to distinguish between refugees and infiltrators is not clear and will be a different mess altogether.

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Srinivas R

December 18, 2019

https://t.co/50xDzXF1TN?amp=1

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Srinivas R

December 18, 2019

“do you know what your beloved China is doing to the Uighurs?” – we know and it is wrong. Is that a justification to follow the same in India as well? So are you agreeing that NRC is as bad as what is happening to Muslims in China? Then we all should speak out, no?

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Madan

December 18, 2019

Enigma : I am pretty sure NYT or other left leaning outlets have written way more often on Uyghurs than the wholly America centric National Review. You ain’t fooling nobody with your whataboutery. I will echo a great counter made by an opposition leader to Modi’s ‘challenge’ to opposition parties to give citizenship to all Pakistanis. Stop hiding behind Pakistan or China, start talking about India. You live in Australia, don’t you? Do you have even the slightest idea how bad the Indian economy is right now? CAB-NRC is not the priority now. This is just a desperate gambit by BJP to both get their political agenda through Parliament while they have numbers in RS and also fan communal flames to fire up the base in time for upcoming state elections. This has been their playbook for the last three years or so. Don’t tell me about nationalism and all. I am sure if ScoMo passed a bill pertaining to citizenship tomorrow that excludes Hindus, you would be worried as hell. That’s how Muslims feel now. That’s how anybody would in their place. It was entirely possible to draft the Bill without specifying any religions and still achieve the same effect. That is literally what the Joint Parliamentary Committee recommended, “persecuted religious minorities”. Specifying religions and excluding Muslims is intentional. Amit Shah wanted India to burn over this so he can blame it on Muslims and they can win the election under the same old “Hindu khatre mein” plank. Funny how Hindus still feel in danger after Delhi cops beat up girl students (Muslim)on the road in broad daylight.

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theeversriram

December 18, 2019

BR, think this is an unnecessary post in this blog. As usual people on one end are going to attack Modi/Shah, Hindutva, cow urine gangs, anti-muslim etc etc and on the other end libtards, sickulars, selective outrage, living in a bubble, etc will be brought up.

As usual common people (whoever it is) don’t give a damn and move on with their lives.

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gnanaozhi

December 18, 2019

The amount of FUD based on a false post is astonishing.

BR the post is blatantly misleading.

For one we have no idea what the contours of an NRC will be. Secondly, going by the current exercise that was created by the Cong and supervised directly by the SC, bypassing entirely the executive, a Hindu illegal has the same burden of proof a Muslim illegal has. If they can’t provide proof that their forefathers emigrated from Pakistan, then they will be treated on par with a Muslim illegal without docs.

To the likes of Anu Warrier and the others straight up jumping into “Modi Hitler” mode, ask yourself this, Hindus are persecuted or not. The pop of Hindus in Pak + Bdesh has gone from 25% to less than 10% in just 50 odd years.

Many converted but there are countless others who are refugees in India. Why should we not accommodate them? And why on Earth would we accommodate their own persecutors?

To use your own puerile Hitler example, this is like France offering asylum to Jews in 1940, and being asked why Nazi Germans are also not offered asylum.

If only you lot will scream at Pakistan and Bdesh, god knows they might actually stop persecuting the Kaffir minorities and we won’t need these laws.

Your logic that India is some dystopian hell hole for Muslims but then somehow in the same breath, arguing about their exclusion in a CAB is just spectacular cognitive dissonance.

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gnanaozhi

December 18, 2019

@madan, in the patidar protests, neyveli lignite protests, the Ram Rahim protests, the Assam protests, Telengana protests, the police shot to kill. So please spare us the tears for protesting mobs who were beaten up.

If the same yardsticks cops apply to non “minority” mobs were held, live bullets would be fired.

I can’t believe you lot condone mass mob violence just because it suits your ideology.

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gnanaozhi

December 18, 2019

@srinivas, literal concentration camps, harvesting of organs, literal indoctrination programs, forced sterilisation, Muslims forced to renounce Islam, eat pork etc is the same as NRC? Seriously? Do you not see just how extreme your position is?

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Madan

December 18, 2019

“I can’t believe you lot condone mass mob violence just because it suits your ideology.” – Now where did I condone mass mob violence? Here is what I wrote:

‘There is zero evidence that the students were the ones who have burnt property, it was miscreants who were arrested. Hasn’t stopped people from suggesting the students asked for it.’

Ah, I see that you believe the students were in fact involved? Well, the MHA itself disagrees with you.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/jamia-students-not-involved-in-arson-during-citizenship-law-protest-mha-official/story-D29dRSFuFGfkXcFEfq6lfI.html

Still want to believe that, no, the students must have done something wrong because, after all, they were Muslims? Sorry Scarlett, but the facts don’t give a flying fig about your feelings.

I have been tracking this since Saturday and I have yet to see any credible evidence that all the bus and other public property burning was done by the Jamia students. And yet, I see rant after rant suggesting that they were asking for it. Oh, if they were asking for it merely for protesting, how come IIT B students have been protesting since Monday without a sound from the police? In fact, my commute route takes me past the IIT B gates and you wouldn’t even know anything was going on there unless you were tracking the news. Ah, you were saying something about holding up these Muzzlem protesters up to non minority standards of law? Yes, monsieur, that is exactly what I want to, so I am happy to note you in fact agree with me, albeit inadvertently!

Now I don’t wanna hear about how you misread me because you got so angery and all that. I don’t care. You guys need to chill and read what is being said instead of always remaining in daggers drawn mode. Oh, and stop watching TV news and start reading papers. Kudos if you already do that but in that case, your anger management needs some more work.

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theeversriram

December 18, 2019

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theprint.in/india/mamata-govt-cracks-down-on-social-media-police-remove-over-3000-inflammatory-posts/337058/%3famp
As usual freedom of expression, the importance of dissent people will go all silent in these kind of stuff. And this news came in left leaning, so called liberal elite Print.

@Madan, inciting students to commit violence and using them as the front cover for political/religious agenda is completely wrong and is an act of cowardice.

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Sanjay

December 18, 2019

Even if problematic to a few, the Govt had been able to execute their basic agenda without any resistance and more importantly without much bloodshed. Triple Talaq / Article 370 / Ayodhya verdict though are not answers to India’s genuine concerns or issues anyone tracking its progress or make any difference in day to day lives of the masses.

Even though we are to still to realize the repercussions of article 370 as the area is under complete shutdown and clampdown, the rest of India thankfully remained calm. The govt could have now started to concentrate on real issues and get things back on track which seemed fully derailed in the last 6 years of their rule but it seems they were not happy the divisive agendas went down quietly and unopposed. Now it seems this govt never meant any business and pressed themselves to power only to generate diversions to real issues plaguing the country hence introduction of CAB / NRC is akin to taking a ‘udta teer’ in the country’s backside. It feels these RSScals aren’t part of the country and are there to just rubble rouse and create chaos. Think of it seriously, is India a first world country to carry out documentation of any sort? Does it even have the means and money to even implement whatever they are saying or doing here. Even 10% of that bill cannot be implemented or enforced as India largely remains a poor third world country falling behind even Bangladesh as far as the per capita income goes.

This whole exercise proves these guys are not true well wishers of the country but acting on someone’s behalf to take the country 15-20 years back. They seem to be acting like agents to China & Pakistan and weakening India economically, structurally with all this ‘backchodi’ of last 6 years from these two idiots of first order.

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lapogadnan

December 18, 2019

@gnanaozhi: burden of proof for illegal Hindus will be proving that they are from the three countries. For illegal Muslims, there’s no burden of anything. They will be illegal wherever they come from. So practically NOT the same. Especially when you consider the ideological underpinnings of RSS/BJP.

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Anu Warrier

December 18, 2019

@Enigma – I’m sick and tired of this ‘whataboutery’. Yes, China is cracking down on the Uighurs and that is a crime against humanity as well. So? Is it your position that India should be compared to China? And what the heck is this slam against ‘leftists’ anyway? So if I criticise Modi and Amit Shah, I’m automatically leftist? I can’t just be a politically aware person with relatively centrist views who thinks this move is a pogrom? Are you serious?

To you and others like gnanamozhi who seem to think that other countries behaving badly towards their minorities is cause and justification for India to do the same – I hold my country up to a higher standard than proven basket cases or known authoritarian regimes. That Pakistan ill-treats its Hindu minority is not reason for India to do the same. That China brutalises the Uighurs is no reason for India to do the same.

This move is a blatant (and deliberate) movement to marginalise and even disenfranchise our largest minority. They have already fucked up Kashmir – what do you call a government that inters its own citizens, locking down internet access and the like for months, if not authoritarian? Our rights and freedoms are at stake here, and while you may not cry for the minority Muslim who gets penalised under this new act, wait until their next step takes away something that you hold dear.

And before you burst a gasket calling us names, let me point out that Amit Shah made a grandiose statement about how Modi is going to bring back the glories of ancient ‘Hindustan’ and have the country stretch to include Afghanistan again. Methinks the Afghans will have a few things to say about that?

You have a problem with me likening Modi to Hitler, or to my evoking Godwin’s law here? Read about the many signs of fascism and then cry me a river about how I’m ‘doing them wrong’.

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Madan

December 18, 2019

gnanaozhi: In fact, I read through the entire thread and there isn’t one comment, including mine, that condones mass mob violence. I see you have learnt well from your political idols how to employ angry rants composed of standard right wing talking points as diversionary tactics.

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Madan

December 18, 2019

” inciting students to commit violence and using them as the front cover for political/religious agenda is completely wrong and is an act of cowardice.” – It is, but that is not the students’ fault. And it does not condone the brutality police unleashed on the students. It wasn’t even just a matter of a skirmish over a couple of hours. They hounded the students for two days, even dragging them out of hostels to administer a beating. Police have also been captured on video beating up bikes with their lathis to pass off as damage done by protesters. THAT is also an act of cowardice and clearly lends a communal colour to the police brutality.

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Madan

December 18, 2019

” let me point out that Amit Shah made a grandiose statement about how Modi is going to bring back the glories of ancient ‘Hindustan’ and have the country stretch to include Afghanistan again. Methinks the Afghans will have a few things to say about that?” – The termites barb has already backfired with Bangladesh not taking it well but trying to manage the relationship in a mature way. But India should remember they will only do this until the point that they completely join China’s side. Bangladesh is the last frontier for China in its quest to encircle India and Modi has just done a great job of making neighbours reconsider their relationship with India. Also want to add that Bangladesh is a very important export market for India. So to all who believe this is a one sided relationship with Bangladesh fleecing India of resources, please do snap out of your delusion. India is not what all you seem to think it is. That is why it built so many alliances and friendships to tide over its limitations. The more aggressively India asserts a religious nationalism, the more it will jeopardise these friendships.

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Siva

December 18, 2019

Hey Mr.BR dude, does this post in any way translate to Vijay TV TRP Ratings? Or donation to a charity of your choice for every comment?

I was jusssst hoping for someone, to turn this upside down, into:

Left vs Right
‘People like you’
‘The likes of you’
‘Perceived Elite’ vs Whoever wants to label them that
BJP vs Congress
Some random commenter vs Modi
‘meaningless words’
‘blatantly misleading’
An insulting and insinuating comment with some random fancy English words

And boy, haven’t they delivered with distinction.

Well done, mister Boss Man. You have done it again 😀

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nikkie1602

December 18, 2019

@gnanaozhi: Do give this a read
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/pakistan-bangladesh-non-muslim-population-citizenship-amendment-bill-bjp-1627678-2019-12-12

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shaviswa

December 18, 2019

I thought the NRC was implemented under the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court in Assam and not really the handiwork of the BJP. The CAA has nothing to do with NRC. Also the proposed nationwide NRC will be managed through the census and updated in the citizen registry.

Finally, a word on the illegal migrants and refugees. We have an estimated 5 crore of them in India. How do we manage this? Why should Indian tax payer money go for these people?

Please see below what other sovereign nations do to handle their illegal immigrats:

Saudi police has detained 80 #Pakistan national illegal immigrants, they were hidden in the mountains in near Mecca… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…—
Shiraz Hassan (@ShirazHassan) December 18, 2019

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shaviswa

December 18, 2019

Another link – Saudi police has detained 80 #Pakistan national illegal immigrants, they were hidden in the mountains in near Mecca city.
https://www.urdunews.com/node/448876

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Siva

December 18, 2019

Pulling your legs aside, I did not know didly squat about neither CAB (Or is it CAA like people are quoting?), nor NRC (okay I knew a little bit about NRC).

Meaning, this could be an eye opener for the blissfully uninitiated like me. So thank you, BR Saar 🙂

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lapogadnan

December 18, 2019

@Shavishwa: Then why the amnesty to only non-Muslims? Looks like in the assam NRC, 2/3 of the identified illegal immigrants were Hindus. If the number of illegal immigrants was the issue, surely CAA is the last thing to do?

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hari

December 18, 2019

In India after every budget every Indian becomes a economist, after a Balakot every one becomes a defense expert and after every CAA becomes a constitution expert. BR’s blog space is no “vidhivilakku”.

All the people who are against CAA/NRC and who want to help few of the Rohingaya Muslim refugees staying in very poor conditions in Chennai (no point going to a protest – you will be asked to sit in the police van) please let me know. I can provide you info regarding the NGO’s who are helping, they are looking for money and legal help.

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hari

December 18, 2019

Oh yes after reading the blog I knew which usual suspect will say what and they have not disappointed.

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hari

December 18, 2019

Every “legal/constitutional” expert please listen to this from an advocate

before you start equating Modi/Shah with Hitler or any other personalities.

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Viv

December 18, 2019

BR -Thanks for sharing that poster! This is scary – This polarization has caused many to abandon reason completely. With respect to the “how do we deal with illegal immigration?”, there has to be a distinction between what we are going to do to stop this vs what we do with people who have lived here since Independence. Since when did India start maintaining clean systems of record? To this day, every document can be “purchased” if you have the means. Everyone here arguing for the tougher stance is well aware of this but just want to see this inflicted upon their fellow citizens. This unashamed pandering to our lowest instincts has proven to be an effective smokescreen, not just in India, but even in the so called “advanced countries”. In the meantime, unlike those advanced countries, our women (age no bar) continue to be brutalized every day (by sons of our elected majority representatives), the economy is nose-diving, our natural resources are at their lowest ebb – this government with its super majority could choose to address any of these issues but why bother when even educated folks in this forum choose to parrot the same old “whataboutism” and idolize bigots?

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Isai

December 18, 2019

I have some doubts in the clearest explanation shared by BR. It would be nice if someone can share proof for these sentences:

Property Ownership: “These documents will have to prove that our ancestors lived and OWNED PROPERTY in the country.”

In Assam NRC, land and tenancy records were just 1 out of the 12 types of list A documents that were required. One can show any 1 out of these 12 which include birth/educational/or any government issued certificate, bank account, voter id etc.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Register_of_Citizens_for_Assam
So, there is no requirement for property Ownership and I don’t see a single Newspaper article talking about that w.r.t CAB or NRC.

2.60 year old: “Now, the problem is that these are more than 60-year-old documents. How many of us hold 60-year-old documents?”

From where did this number 60 come from? In Assam, the cut-off date was set in 1971 (48 years ago) because a large number of immigrants came to Assam during/after the 1971 war and these huge numbers were the cause of this tension and hence they chose this cut off date. But, for conducting NRC in Tamil Nadu, one can easily use say the community certificate, which all reserved category (BC, MBC, SC, ST) people possess. This includes BC Muslims like Rowthars and Marakayars (both Tamil, Urdu speaking). Even dalits who converted to Christianity are still classified as BC. The process for obtaining this certificate is quite similar to the NRC. You show evidence that your parents had this certificate and also give evidence to prove that you are their child. Every year, students do obtain these certificates and there is no widescale protest. How will a NRC be any different?

3.CAB gives citizenship to all non muslims: “So, you are an illegal immigrant under NRC but because of CAB you will get citizenship anyway”
This seems false. You can get citizenship only if you had come from Pak, Bangladesh or Afghan. So, if Baradwaj Rangan has no document, then even if he is a Hindu, he has to prove that he is from the above countries and not from say Malaysia or Sri Lanka. Now, don’t misconstrue Amit Shah’s words about non-Muslims not having to give proof. While this may hold for Assam NRC, doing it for entire India would simply encourage anyone and everyone to declare that they are from Pakistan, if only to avoid the hassle of submitting proofs.

It would be nice if BR or anyone else can clarify the above. And while clarifying, do simplify but don’t falsify. To put it simply, please don’t treat us as simpletons.

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vijay

December 18, 2019

“At a time when economy should be addressed on war footing, why are we wasting time with this?”

Maybe just distracting.They know economy is a lost cause.

Plus you voted for their manifesto which had this CAA, why crib now will be the argument

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Isai

December 18, 2019

I have a few doubts on the statistics article shared by Rahul. It would be nice if someone can clarify these:

The article says that “If the government executes the task exceptionally well, such as for voter identity, and has a Type II error rate of just 5%, 67.5 million people will face action, equalling the human displacement caused by World War II.

Indian government executing a task with just 5% error rate seems impossible, making this world war like figure mind boggling.

So, I looked at the NRC conducted in Assam and found that around 19 lakhs were excluded out of 3.29 crores people who had applied = 5.77%.
This 5.77% would include both illegal immigrants (true positives) and type 2 errors. If 5% were caused by type 2 errors, then only 0.77% were actual illegal immigrants. This seems nowhere close to ground reality. Then I realized what is wrong in the author’s methodology. The NRC process had an interim draft, final draft and the final NRC list. (ie) there were 3 iterations/stages. After the interim draft, only those who were excluded would have appealed to get included in the final draft. This would have again repeated before the final list. Now, in order for a person to get erroneously excluded from the final list, he/she must have been erroneously excluded in each of these 3 iterations/stages. So, using the same error rate of 5%, the probability of a genuine citizen being excluded is 5%5%5%= 0.0125%, yes percent. Even at this stage, there is a foreigner tribunal and of course courts where you can appeal. This will cost and inconvenience people. So, I am not inclined to use these numbers. But, it would suffice to say that statistically speaking, the probability of a genuine citizen getting excluded after the entire process is very low and nowhere close to the world war like figure suggested by the article.

The author implies that voter identity process would have a 5% type 2 error rate. This means that in Tamil Nadu 5% of 6 crores, ie around 30 lakh genuine voters would have been excluded. In a state where elections are won with a vote share difference of <2%, exclusion of 5% would have lead to widescale protests and non acceptance of the results/election process. Even common sense tells that 5%, ie 30 lakh is ridiculously high.

The author also makes generalized statements like Immigration are usually a net economic benefit. Now, this may be true for US or Canada where many high skilled immigrants go, where the standard of living of the poorest Americans are still much better than that of the poor immigrants and where the population density is relatively low. I see the immigration of Bangladeshis to India as just another form of population expansion, where the population of the poorest people are increasing. Is that good for the economy? Considering our poverty levels and population density, I don’t think so.

86% of Indian Households own their house while it is only 63% in USA. This is a true statistic. And, like many statistics, it is quite misleading.

https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/a5jnMOHQsHEk47Rr9mUWPI/Five-charts-on-the-state-of-Indias-housing-sector.html

As I often feel, lies, damned lies and statistics.

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Isai

December 18, 2019

Nikkie1602: Thanks a lot for sharing that article. I remember a close friend from Manipur sharing these concerns years ago and am sad that even today there has been no change. I have lived in multiple cities, both in India and in abroad and I went to these places only in search of better prospects. So, I am quite sympathetic to immigration.

But, the world of the uneducated poor is much different from that of the educated middle/upper classes. I feel that in a world where people treat everyone as equals, with compassion and mutual respect, Immigration shouldn’t be a major issue. But, in our present world, where the only strength of poor is in their numbers (As Ranjith says, Namma undambuthaan namaku irukara orae aayudham), it is but natural that the indigineous people of North East feel threatened by the immigration of huge number of Bengali speakers. Sadly, I don’t see any easy solution.

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Santa

December 19, 2019

Thank you for posting this. This needs to be seen in context other things that have happened: revocation of 370, supreme court decision on Ayodhya, and now the CAA/CAB. The common theme and the underlying pattern is clear to see. Not to mention that this was part of the governments campaign manifesto. So I guess in one way we should be happy that the government is delivering on some of its promises? Of course, politicians who are too incompetent to tackle complex and challenging issues, will instead pick ones that will create the most polarization and distraction.

I think the Economist summarized it best: ‘Seldom has apparent magnanimity disguised such malevolence.’

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Enigma

December 19, 2019

@ Madan, I was referring to the Indian left and also Pakistanis who cannot stop abusing Modi’s treatment of Muslims whilst going all coy on Chinese repression in Xinjiang. I have not commented on the citizenship act as I am not fully aware of the details. Having said that, I am not comfortable with the specific references made to Muslims in the act.

I am a legal immigrant and a permanent resident of Australia, not an illegal one. You may be aware of the way Australia treats its illegal immigrants. They are detained in a facility in the island of Nauru. Recently a Sri Lankan Tamil family was forcibly deported despite the children having been born here. Imagine if Modi forcibly deported illegals. Though there is a fair bit of criticism of the Nauru detention centre, strikes, stone throwing and burning of public property does not happen here. We also have to learn to be more civilised in our protests.

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Mani

December 19, 2019

For those who understand Tamil (there is English subtitles too), and have not watched the below video, would recommend watching it.

For those likening Modi (and some of them sitting outside India for many years without having first hand info) to Hitler and want to support opposition, it has to be left to one’s own introspection on if they have a concrete evidence or if they are just getting biased based on opposition propaganda to gain political mileage out of this situation!

I can say with full pride that Muslims in India are treated equal and not discriminated. Are they discriminated in job openings? Are they discriminated in educational seats? Are they discriminated in celebrating their religious festivities? Are they discriminated in wearing their religious attire? In fact they had been allowed to have own laws outside the constitution! Were these things changed now by Modi? Come on!

And I can as well say that – no other country including the big Muslim countries like Saudi – have not done as much as India for Muslims!

Having said this, I do also feel that the entire issue could have been handled better (and behind the screens) by government!

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Enigma

December 19, 2019

@ Anu Warrier, I was specifically referring to Indian left’s (not just the political parties but also the leftist nut jobs on social media) complete silence when it comes to Chinese repression in Xinjiang. They also don’t criticise pakistan’s treatment of its Hindu minority. I have not commented on this act. And why invoke Hitler at the drop of a hat (and why not Mao or Stalin, mass murderers both of them)? (My point being the Indian left will not dare criticise even Mao or Stalin) The Indian left/liberals have no credibility, so when they criticise no one will take them seriously.

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Madan

December 19, 2019

shaviswa: You cannot club the number of refugees and illegal immigrants. Refugees are entitled to asylum. And if you oppose letting even refugees in, you should in fact join Assam in opposing CAB. As for illegal immigrants, you can deport them today, without a nationwide NRC. So let govt do it. Nobody is saying let illegal immigrants in. You are the second poster claiming we said this, so please stop. All we are saying is that a nationwide NRC will be incredibly costly and incredibly messy. A Kargil war veteran lost his citizenship in the Assam NRC. Please don’t tell me that is collateral damage to weed out illegal immigrants. Every case where a citizen has to wrongfully lose his citizenship is unacceptable.

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sai16vicky

December 19, 2019

@Madan: I agree with you when you talk about the issues in implementing NRC throughout the country. Some specific responses to your comments:

Explain this to me, though, what happens if a Muslim produces documents showing he is a Hindu and entered India before the cut-off date?
I am no insider but my guess is the NRC/CAB exercises are going to be combined with the 2021 census (due soon). This will provide the much needed demographics data for these exercises. There might still be exceptions but they would be few.
And what happens if a poor Hindu who actually fled from Pakistan to escape persecution has no documents to show since when he has been in India?
As stated above, with some demographics data, I (strongly) suspect non-Muslims will face major exemptions in the documents that they have to produce.

@Srinivas: NRC is the standardization move and CAB is meant to provide the required protection for it. I think BJP realized with some preliminary NRC numbers that without CAB, we might actually lend more people (who need protection) stateless.

@Madan and Srinivas: Regarding the economy, the slowdown is not specific to India. Though we paid a cost for DeMo and the premature GST, we are still one of the fastest growing economies in the world — see for e.g., https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/economy/india-continues-to-be-one-of-the-worlds-fastest-growing-economies-despite-challenges-says-rbi-official/article30067075.ece.

@Anu: I totally stand with you on the whataboutery part but on the fascism angle, I think we have to disagree. I think we are still a functioning democracy (all these bills were discussed, debated and passed in the parliament). By calling the actions of the current government fascist, you are disrespecting the public mandate that voted them to power once again (just earlier this year). This problem is not restricted to India alone — liberals (I consider you liberal, apologies if I am wrong) have distanced themselves so much from the public that right wing is being voted to power in majority of countries in the world (eg. see the recent UK elections). Calling this move divisive is myopic IMHO; for all we know, India could decide to accommodate Muslims from some countries in the future as well. It’s just that we are not able to do it now.

General:
One thought that I have been trying to chew myself. The communities that CAB is trying to naturalize have not shown any major violence in the respective countries. On the other hand, there is enough evidence to see that a good section of Rohingyas/Sri Lankan Tamils have shown significant violence in their home country as well as places they have migrated to. The flurry of issues that Muslims have caused in migration to some European countries (France is a case-in-point) is a well-studied and actively discussed topic. I wonder why this “fact” is ignored — is it because it challenges secularism?

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sai16vicky

December 19, 2019

@Madan: Sorry for the comment-response messup in the earlier comment. The responses are interleaved with your original comments. I do agree with you and @Anu on sealing our borders; I expect this to start happening once Article 370 and NRC/CAB reach a reasonably mature stage.

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gnanaozhi

December 19, 2019

@madan, irony basically just committed sepuku. You accuse me of not reading your comment and replying blindly when it is you that is guilty of the same.

I never spoke about students or mafia or whatever, I said explicitly “protestors”. I personally don’t give a crap about who they are, I classify anyone who burns a bus or a train as a violent mob. Period.

You are the one strawmanning all over the place by assuming I was talking about one specific group of protestors (students in Jamia Islamia) and that I hate Muslims and are busy pulling down these windmills.

Please read what i said, and then reply.

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gnanaozhi

December 19, 2019

@anu so in Kashmir you support,

Caste discrimination – look up the case of the Valmikis
Women underage marriage (that was addressed only last year)
Religious discrimination – the Kashmir Constitution is explicitly not secular
Religious discrimination – Hindus who migrated from East Pakistan in 1948 had no vote while Rohingyas who moved in 2014 were settled with property by this state only because they are MusLIms.
Sectarian discrimination – Shiite processions were banned by law in Kashmir, Shiite Muslims were beaten up and jailed even last year just for the sin of taking out a procession.

Imagine idk Yogi Adityanath creating a state with all these rules, you lot will be screaming blue bloody murder and yet in Kashmir this is acceptable? Why? Because reasons I suppose.

And all this doesn’t address the outright support for Jihadi orgs like JeM, LeT, ISIS, Al Qaida, the violence and murder. Even now after 370 was removed, Jihadis have murdered 6 Innocents, just for the sin of opening their shops or driving a truck.

If Kashmiris will actually stop dreaming of a Caliphate of the pure and you lot condemn all these actions, we might not even have needed the internet blocakade.

Just do a thought exercise, whatever insanity that happened in Kashmir, replace Islam with Hinduism, the caste discrimination, making Hindus second class citizens etc and tell me if you will support it with such full faith you do Kashmiri rights to oppress Hindus and Shias!

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gnanaozhi

December 19, 2019

@madan and @anu, I can’t find any source for Amit Shah claiming that Afghanistan to Bangladesh will be Indian territory. Please can you cite your claim?

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gnanaozhi

December 19, 2019

Since people seem to think that Hindus in Pakistan have it super easy, here is a brief write up on their conditions.

In the light of recent events, I decided to compile some evidence regarding the treatment of Hindus and other minorities in Pakistan. People are requested to pitch in and suggest more evidence if it is not here, so that it serves as a reference point in discussions.

Forced conversions of Hindus

• Hindus are forced to convert either directly through force or intimidation, or indirectly through Love Jihad and societal acceptance.

• Around 5000 Hindu families migrate to India from Pakistan each year.

• According to the Pakistan Hindu Council, about 25 cases of kidnapping of Hindu girls above 15 years of age are reported every month in Karachi alone.

• Those who fail to migrate or are deported from India due to lack of documentation are taught a lesson by forcefully being converted to Islam. Just recently, over 500 Pakistani Hindus, who were deported back from India, were converted to Islam.

Hindus treated worse than 3rd Class Citizens by the Pakistani Govt.

• From 1985 to 1999, there were separate electorates for minorities in Pakistan and Muslims could vote for both the main Muslim electorate and the minority electorate.

• The constitution of Pakistan prohibits any Non-Muslim from becoming the President or Prime Minister of Pakistan. A Non-Muslim cannot testify against a Muslim in some courts (because a Non-Muslim is inferior to a Muslim according to Islam).

• After partition, the departments of Sanskrit, Hindi and Gurmukhi were shut down in Pakistan and instead M.A. classes in Urdu were initiated.

• Pakistan did not allow Hindus to legally register their marriages until the year 2017, when the Hindu marriage bill was passed. Before that Hindu couples could not prove their marital status in court. So it took Pakistan 70 years to make a Hindu Marriage Law, that too full of loopholes.

• Like in most other Islamic countries, it is criminal for a Non-Muslim man to marry a Muslim woman in Pakistan.

• If a Non-Muslim woman converts to Islam, forcibly or willingly, and if the woman had been married to a Non-Muslim man before, that marriage is deemed automatically dissolved and her children become illegitimate and ineligible for inheritance. The Hindu husband cannot claim possession of the children until he too converts to Islam.

• Denial of recognition of Hindu marriages is often used to intimidate and harass Hindus. Married Hindu women have been forcibly kidnapped and married to Muslims, and are left without legal recourse due to inability to prove their previous marriage. It also makes it difficult for Hindus to obtain the Computerized National Identity Card.

Hinduphobia among the Pakistani people

Make no mistake, the people of Pakistan are as complicit in this crime as the Govt., if not more.

• Pakistani Hindus have reported that Hindu girls are sexually harassed in Pakistani schools and Hindu students are made to read the Quran and their religious practices are mocked.

• According to a survey in 2010 by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, 76% of Pakistanis supported death penalty for those who leave Islam.

• They holler about one Babari Masjid (which was itself made by a mass murderer, akin to a statue of Hitler in Israel, built over the Western Wall), yet brush under the carpet, the scores of temples demolished, Hindus killed and their properties vandalized in the aftermath of the Babari incident in Pakistan.

• Elected representatives representing more than half the population (Fayaz-ul-Hasan Chohan) spouti vitriol like “Hindus are ‘cow piss drinkers’ and ‘filthy stone worshippers’. Their civilians, elected officials and intelligence agencies openly spew the rhetoric of “Ghazwa E Hind” and “bleeding India with a thousand cuts”.

• Their media houses are spouting that if Pakistan is destroyed, Muslims have 50 more countries, but if Hindustan is destroyed, Kafirs will be wiped off from the planet.

• To foment further divisions, the Pakistan Census separates Schedule Castes from the main body of Hindus who make up a further 0.25% of the national population.

Hinduphobic hatred harbored by Govt. sponsored Pakistani school textbooks

I’m posting a few of the hundred hate filled lies, do read the full sources given after this :

“Before the Arab conquest people were fed up with the teachings of Buddhists & Hindus.”

“Before Islam people lived in untold misery.”

The Muslims of Pakistan provided all facilities to the Hindus and the Sikhs who left for India. But the Hindus and the Sikhs looted the Muslims in India with both hands and they attacked their caravans, buses and railway trains.

Therefore, about one million Muslims were martyred on their way to Pakistan.

The religion of Hindus did not teach them good things, Hindus did not respect women.

The Hindu has always been an enemy of Islam.

The foundation of the Hindu setup was based on injustice and cruelty.

The Hindus who had always been opportunists cooperated with the British.

”Religious minorities are often portrayed as inferior or second-class citizens who have been granted limited rights and privileges by generous Pakistani Muslims, for which they should be grateful,” the report said.

Sources :

Link 1

Link 2

Extinction of Kalash People (Indo-Aryans in Pakistan practicing ancient form of Hinduism) by Muslims of Pakistan

They are not even leaving the tiny minority (3000 people) of Kalash people alone from their cancerous ideology of Jihad.

Other Kalasha activists said they were historically disdained by Muslims as “infidels,” along with a separate group of Kalasha in Afghanistan’s Nurestan province across the border.

According to local leaders, in 2002 a Spanish researcher living in the valley, Jordi Magraner, was found dead with his throat slit, along with two local residents. In 2009, a Greek scholar who helped build the Kalasha school, Athanasion Larounis, was kidnapped by Afghan Taliban forces but eventually freed and returned to Greece.

The larger clash here is the competition between a long-dominant culture with relaxed, secular values and an aggressively expanding faith with strict rules and conservative moral views.

One Kalasha farmer complained of hate speech broadcast through local mosque loudspeakers.

Girls are “easily converted” by Muslim visitors who woo and marry them. (Love Jihad, anyone?)

“We are free and open-minded people. We don’t interfere in our children’s decisions to be a Kalasha or Muslim,” Gul said. “But our community is shrinking. I fear that very soon, there will be no Kalasha left in this valley.” (Exactly what is happening slowly in India).

Source: http://archive.li/yXzKB

Under the Citizenship Amendment Act of 2019, people who entered India from Pakistan, Afghanistan or Bangladesh by 31 December 2014, and had suffered “religious persecution or fear of religious persecution” in their country of origin, were made eligible for citizenship.

In the view of the plethora of evidence regarding the heinous treatment of minorities in neighboring Islamic theocracies, the CAA is a step in the right direction as it gives citizenship to our ancestral brethren from across the border, not only as a humanitarian gesture, but also owing to our ancient heritage.

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tonks

December 19, 2019

So I have been having arguments with people close to me who are in support of BJP and some points they raise are :

1) When I say that we should accept (or not) refugees irrespective of religion, they ask if our neighbouring Muslim countries do that. Whether they will accept Hindu refugees as their own.

2) When I argue that these countries are not secular, but India is, they say India is not secular but biased towards minorities where there is reservation for them, and benefits (like land given to Catholics for institutions etc) given to them. I could argue that they deserve it, being minorities, but where I live (Kerala) both Christians and Muslims are quite rich (even richer than Hindus) and also influential and powerful. So it is difficult for me to argue that way. I feel this is the basis of resentment amongst many Hindus supporting BJP, and why they are resentful of the immigrant exodus.

I’d like to know the opinions of others on this.

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tonks

December 19, 2019

Another common point of resentment with the BJP supporters I argue with, is that all the money in the coffers of most temples go to the government through Devassom but churches and mosques have the autonomy to use their money. They feel both Congress and the left are biased towards minorities (their vote bank) so only the BJP watches out for Hindu interests.

Also they worry that Muslims and Christians (the latter especially out here) have more than two children, they are encouraged to have more children by their religious leaders, so eventually over generations they will no longer be minorities.

I think these are the basis for their resentment

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Rahul

December 19, 2019

Isai, the point of that article is not how many people will EVENTUALLY be excluded, but the cost of exclusion from the lists. Here is another article –

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/assam-citizens-list-excluded-people-spent-rs-7-836-crore-on-hearings-report-2091513

Shaviswa, do you have sources for the 5 crore figure?

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Heisenberg

December 19, 2019

There has been no convincing explanation for arbitrary selection of 3 countries, out of all neighbors. Neither an explanation of religious persecution as the only condition and why the assumption that only Hindus, sikhs, buddhists, jains and christians are persecuted in these countries?

For those arguing for CAA-NRC, If one is against illegal immigrants, then have to be against any illegal immigrant regardless of religion. And if one’s heart goes out for a refugee who has been persecuted, it should go out for any person regardless of their country of origin or religious practice. If you have sympathy for only the people of your kind, that makes you simply a bigot.

The irony is the proponents of CAA-NRC (in its current form) are the same ones who have an orgasm on hearing “Vasudeva Kutumbakam”/ “Yaadhum oore yaavarum Kelir” and take pride that our culture has been inclusive/universal for thousands of years.

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brangan

December 19, 2019

To those who asked, the reason I put up this post was because the image “seemed” to simplify the implications of CAB and NRC — but like anything out there on the web, things may not be what they “seem”.

So I wanted a discussion that I could follow where people discuss this issue — as I do think this is a very important issue.,

My own feelings are like Hansal Mehta’s, whose Instagram post I have added below the earlier image (above). I would like a town hall kind of thing where our elected representatives actually EXPLAIN what all this means, and why the bill “seems” so divisive and exclusive and, yes, non-secular.

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Heisenberg

December 19, 2019

It’s alarming how quickly masses fall for one trap after another. Before 2012-14 Corruption was the biggest issue stopping India’s progress. Then Black Money, then came Pakistan and cross-border terrorism, then Kashmir’s 370, Ram Mandir and now illegal immigrants.

And it’s not like this duo has solved one problem after another. If anything they have made it worse in every single issue. Whenever Modi/Amit Shah start speaking the only thing that keeps sounding in my ears

“Nee pudungradhu poora theva illadha aani dhan”

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lapogadnan

December 19, 2019

And to all those who say that illegal Hindus will also have a tough time, please do back and listen to some of the things Amit Shah has said about it. @isai: I recommend you to watch how this debate has been shaped by our home minister. Also Assam NRC was a specific ask from the indigenous people, and no one really wants the bureaucratic bother of a nationwide NRC, especially if it’s going to be communally motivated.

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Madan

December 19, 2019

@gnanaozhi: You specifically accused us of condoning mass mob violence when none of us had done so. In fact I specifically mentioned the miscreants who got arrested. Miscreants. Understand English or no?

This is not Twitter and your pathetic attempts to deliberately inflame the discourse won’t work. Quit it now. Debate substance all day, I will welcome it. But every false allegation you make on me or others in the thread will get brutally called out. Deal with it.

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Madan

December 19, 2019

Mani : Muslims have been beaten up by mobs and asked to say Jai Shri Ram. And this never happened before 2019. But yeah, no discrimination at all, sab changa si.

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gnanaozhi

December 19, 2019

@madan, your mentioning miscreants is not tantamount to condemning mob violence. Even here this thread is littered with strawman comments on the Delhi police, ignoring the violence that was done in Delhi and WBengal.

Finally I have not inflamed and discourse here, I have made cited comments. You and your ilk with your “modi is literally Hitler” is what is cheapening the discourse. That is textbook Twitter speech, all rhetoric zero substance.

Why don’t you shorn of all verbiage and Hitler Nazi comments explain just how CAA affects Indians, forget Muslims or Hindus, any Indian.

Besides I have also pointed out just how much of FUD that the original post shared by BR is.

For someone who claims the high ground of “substance”, I only see name calling, FUD and straw Manning and very little objectivity.

So I repeat, state your position on why CAA is against Indians.

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Madan

December 19, 2019

tonks: I actually have no problem with accepting those persecuted for their religion in Muslim majority countries. It is a fact that, yes, those countries are indeed not secular. I don’t see it as a priority but the problem is many of these people are already living as refugees and resolving the impasse by giving them citizenship is a good move.

The problem is entirely with how the Act has been drafted.. The JPC had recommended to use the words, “persecuted religious minorities” and BJP dispensed with that and instead enumerated several religions, only leaving out Muslims. Now why did they do that? This has to do with the Assam fiasco. Realising that many Hindus are losing citizenship, Himanta Biswa Sharma raised alarm bells. He had already advocated the CAB formula in public fora like the India Today Conclave. The calculation is they can use the CAB to ensure no Hindus face problems while Muslims will be denied citizenship.

Again, if somebody is in fact an illegal immigrant, no matter how long they have been staying in India, legal action should be taken and I have no problem with that. However, the BJP is expressly saying they want a nationwide NRC which means they are going to look at ancestry to determine whether you are a citizen or not. Many in the poor and working class are not going to have documents showing their parents were already Indian citizens when they were born. If they are Muslims, they will be shown the door. I don’t recall his name just now but a Kargil war veteran has lost his citizenship in the Assam exercise even though his family lived there since 1930s because the list mixed him up with another person sharing his name who came after 1971. Has govt taken cognisance of this and taken steps to restore his citizenship? No, just radio silence from them. These, and further in light of the demo fiasco, are not exactly reassuring signs. The whole exercise looks set to be a gigantic mess.

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gnanaozhi

December 19, 2019

@madan, from 1947 to 2002 we had one major riot in the country every 5 years, 100’s of minor ones every year.

In Nellie Assamese politicians including Congress leaders rounded up and butchered 2000 Muslims in 5 hours. Not a single person has seen even one day jail term as Rajivji buried it entirely.

Sanjay Gandhi a known Islamophobic tyrant mass sterilised millions of Muslims.

Indiraji butchered Muslims in the heart of Delhi and not a single Indian media house dared even report it

Negruji in his watch butchered 10’s of thousands of Muslims in Hyderabad and buried a report about it (silently published in 2013)

But according to you India was a land of milk and honey before Modi right?

Objectively this is the most peaceful India has been in centuries but your narrative which is false is India is literally China for Muslims right now.

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Heisenberg

December 19, 2019

//I can say with full pride that Muslims in India are treated equal and not discriminated. Are they discriminated in job openings? Are they discriminated in educational seats? Are they discriminated in celebrating their religious festivities? Are they discriminated in wearing their religious attire? In fact they had been allowed to have own laws outside the constitution! Were these things changed now by Modi?//

You just stopped short of listing muslim celebs from Sharukh to Abdul Kalam as an example of how we treat muslims. While not even all Hindus are treated equally, its quite delusional to think muslims are treated equal.

If a mob of 10,000 muslims demolish meenakshi amman temple and propose to build a mosque based on a “non-existing logic” , will you see them as terrorists or elect them to rule the country? How would you feel if school kids enact the whole saga in front of state governors? Why is it different if done by RSS-VHP-BJP?

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Anuja Chandramouli

December 19, 2019

Very interesting thread. Trying to keep an open mind and educate myself on the whole CAA, NRC issue by reading up on it and going through diverse viewpoints. Thought I will share this. (Not my personal viewpoint, but thought it could be added to this thread and may be of interest to some) Ashwin Sanghi posted this on FB and I am copy/pasting:

“The first para of the following post will probably result in right-wingers calling me a leftie-libtard. The second para of this post will possibly result in leftists calling me a bhakt (as it turns out, I cannot avoid the ‘Sanghi’ label). But here’s what I think about this whole #CAA and #NRC matter. So here goes:

The National Register of Citizens is a bad idea. A spectacularly bad one at that. In a country where the vast majority of individuals have very poor documentation, implementing the NRC would be a bureaucratic nightmare. We can barely implement GST, PAN, Aadhar and Voter ID efficiently… and we expect to implement NRC without a hitch! Furthermore, the whole idea has a terribly sinister feel to it. Imagine running pillar to post to prove your credentials and then being told by a babu that you are not a legal citizen and deserve to be packed off to a detention or holding centre unless you happen to qualify as a refugee under CAA. It’s a chilling thought. Let us please abandon this idea quickly. And no, it is insufficient to say that this idea was born during a previous regime. Bad ideas do not deserve to be given a second chance. They deserve to be thrown into the trash can.

But the Citizenship Amendment Act does not fall into the same basket as the NRC. We are all proud of India’s secularism and plurality, but look around you and you will realise something significant. India is secular and pluralistic because of its Hindu ethos. The Upanishads talk of “Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam” or “the world is one family”. If one values secularism, one must necessarily value the Dharmic traditions that made it possible. Look at countries with Muslim majorities and you will be at pains to find one that has not turned Islamic or is not in the process of moving towards Sharia. For India to extend an invitation to persecuted minorities from neighbouring Islamic countries is not only acceptable but also desirable. And this does not affect the citizenship status of any existing Indian citizens. In my opinion, the CAA is a step in the right direction and one that is long overdue.

My advice (not that anyone in government is asking for it)… go ahead with the CAA but ditch the NRC quickly. And if we are seriously worried about illegal influx from the neighbourhood, let’s find ways to police our borders better. Let’s find ways to ensure that the Election Commission does a better job of deciding who gets to vote. But bringing in draconian laws to detain and deport is not the direction we need in the 21st century.

And oh, by the way, is anyone concerned about something called ‘the economy’?

Over and out.”

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Heisenberg

December 19, 2019

There has been no convincing explanation for arbitrary selection of 3 countries, out of all neighbors. Neither an explanation of religious persecution as the only condition and why the assumption that only Hindus, sikhs, buddhists, jains and christians are persecuted in these countries?

For those arguing for CAA-NRC, If one is against illegal immigrants, then have to be against any illegal immigrant regardless of religion. And if one’s heart goes out for a refugee who has been persecuted, it should go out for any person regardless of their country of origin or religious practice. If you have sympathy for only the people of your kind, that makes you simply a bigot.

The irony is the proponents of CAA-NRC (in its current form) are the same ones who have an orgasm on hearing “Vasudeva Kutumbakam”/ “Yaadhum oore yaavarum Kelir” and take pride that our culture has been inclusive/universal for thousands of years.

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Isai

December 19, 2019

Rahul, even the article that you shared now, seems misleading. The problem is that the entire structure collapses when the sample is not truly random/representative. In this case, the survey asked only 62 persons. It averaged the cost of the amount spent by them and then multiplied it by 19 lakhs. Now, this will hold when all 19 lakh people were unrelated individuals leading to 19 lakh cases. But, there would be many people whose entire family is excluded, thus leading to only 1 case. So, this population of 19 lakhs needs to be reduced to number of cases. And similarly, the survey needs to say whether all these 62 people were unrelated and lead to 62 cases or otherwise. Also, while some individuals will have complicated cases involving multiple districts, requiring many family members etc., many cases would be much simpler. You need to ensure that the proportion of these complicated high cost cases in your sample is reflective of their proportion in the population. Finally, you need to calculate the cost incurred for each case and not estimate it by ASKING people. They are not going to say “Jyaada karch nahi hua saab” (Didn’t spend much Sir).

Finally, the statistician would have an inherent bias, because higher the amount, more newsworthy is his survey. So, another survey, taken with a different set of 62 respondents, can come up with a number MUCH different from this. That is why one needs to take such surveys with a huge pinch of salt.

Even the earlier article that you shared said that illegal immigration has no/positive economic cost and minimum security cost, since it doesn’t affect at national level and only at border districts(!!). I think both these costs are severely understated. So, by cherry picking samples and over/under stating the factors that you like/dislike, one can create any conclusion that one wants while appearing to do a perfectly mathematical exercise.

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Madan

December 19, 2019

gnanaozhi : Again, where did I say India was a land of milk and honey in the distant past? Typical right wing diversionary tactics again, no accountability whatsoever for misrepresenting what others say. And all that in an online forum. Utterly shameless.

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Madan

December 19, 2019

Anuja: Thanks for that, great post, well reasoned.

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Madan

December 19, 2019

Heisenberg: You mention listing of Muslim celebrities and this has a parallel to the American right’s narrative when it comes to black people. We are very quickly descending into a similar narrative pertaining to Muslims where those Hindus who speak up about injustice to Muslims are insulted in a similar fashion to the nigger lover insult used in the American South. And yes, it’s true, since this point is so pressing for our right wing friends, that the history of bigotry against Muslims in India is long and most every party has blood on their hands. But before righties declare that everything is great for Muslims today, they should perhaps ask THEM whether they really think so. I touched base with an ex colleague and friend who is a CA like me and he is concerned about the way things are evolving now. Anybody would be. He is an educated, law abiding guy, a so called model minority citizen in other words. Why should they all have to bear the cross on behalf of the few who became terrorists while Pragya Thakur gets to become an MP.

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Honest Raj

December 19, 2019

When I argue that these countries are not secular, but India is, they say India is not secular but biased towards minorities where there is reservation for them, and benefits (like land given to Catholics for institutions etc) given to them.

A country can be really secular only when majority (if not all) of the population are atheists. India has never been a secular nation. It’s naive to assume that minorities face no discrimination in a religious-majority country like India. Even if a country is secular, it should protect the minorities (especially, if they feel threatened by the majority). Of course, I understand that things may be different in Kerala where the Hindu population is just over 50 percent. But then, it’s just Kerala.

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Honest Raj

December 19, 2019

Sanjay Gandhi a known Islamophobic tyrant mass sterilised millions of Muslims.

Indiraji butchered Muslims in the heart of Delhi and not a single Indian media house dared even report it

Negruji in his watch butchered 10’s of thousands of Muslims in Hyderabad and buried a report about it (silently published in 2013)

It’s amusing to see someone accusing the Nehru-Gandhi family of being Islamophobists. As for Hyderabad, I believe Patel was more accountable than Nehru. The Sangh Parivar have their own reasons to “adopt” the likes of Patel and PVN.

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Heisenberg

December 19, 2019

//Again, if somebody is in fact an illegal immigrant, no matter how long they have been staying in India, legal action should be taken and I have no problem with that. //

@Madan
While I mostly agree with your points but action against illegal immigrant is not as simple as that. Let’s say we start from 1971, it’s not like a single man who came in illegally and has been residing as such for 48 years. For argument sake let’s have a couple who arrived in 1971 and gave birth a child next year. That child today is 47 years and has not known any other country and has to be deported or sent to detention camp. And if 47 year old man is married to legal citizen and has kids, deporting him alone is going to break family. And what will be status of 3rd gen kid? Citizen or illegal immigrant?

Now some would start pouncing on me as illegal immigrant sympathizer. But the issue is complex if we want to correct what was wrong 50 years back and will have deep ramifications in the society.

At a time economy is in crisis, lakhs of people losing jobs and poverty on the rise, we need far higher priorities than ethnic/religious cleansing.

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Enna Koduka Sir Pera

December 19, 2019

@Tonks – you have very clearly pointed out the two major reasons why some of the Hindus are favoring this bill. It is the fear of minorities becoming a majority and the so-called minority appeasement politics that they think Congress and Left have used in the past. In fact, this has been in my opinion the singlehanded reason for BJP to come to power – the first time it was in the garb of anti-corruption and development. But, the second time, it was open support of a Hindu state. I have not been able to grapple with the fact as to why they feel threatened by the Minorities and have struggled over the past several months to convince my own family to not fall into this thought trap. If someone has succeeded in changing this mindset among their friends/family, I am really curious to know how they did so.

@Anuja – “India is secular and pluralistic because of its Hindu ethos. The Upanishads talk of “Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam” or “the world is one family”. If one values secularism, one must necessarily value the Dharmic traditions that made it possible.”

I think the notion that Hinduism being a secular religion and treating the world as a single family has been so much ingrained in us from childhood, on reinforcement from various sources, that we completely overlook the fact that a secular religion treating the world as a family would not have codified the stratification of people to different social classes and subjugated a large fraction of people to social oppression for two millennia (varnashrama was sanctified in the Vedas). Just wanted to mention this to lay my opinion that India has remained secular because of the likes of the leaders that we have had, not because of Hinduism as such. There are many historical instances of Hindu kings going after Jains/Buddhists and vice versa.. The current crop of incumbent leaders and their policies do not suggest retaining the secular nature of the country, but they are all staunch Hindus, suggesting that Hindu religion as such has nothing to do with why he have remained secular.

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Enna Koduka Sir Pera

December 19, 2019

@Anuja – Not addressed to you personally, since it is not your personal view point. Just a counter point to Sanghi’s view point.

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sorenkierky

December 19, 2019

Tonks:

1) //When I say that we should accept (or not) refugees irrespective of religion, they ask if our neighbouring Muslim countries do that. Whether they will accept Hindu refugees as their own.//
This is just silly reasoning. Most of those countries are Islamist (theocratic, more or less) nations. Ours is NOT. Or do they really aspire for us to be another of those nations? And to add, the people who suffer the most there (for eg. Pakistan) are Muslims like Ahmaddiyas. Or take Shias in Saudi Arabia. Or even LGBTQ groups amongst Muslims. Hence it’s clear it’s hardly about muslims as a monolith, it’s just a Sangh narrative used to otherize Muslims.

2) //When I argue that these countries are not secular, but India is, they say India is not secular but biased towards minorities where there is reservation for them, and benefits (like land given to Catholics for institutions etc) given to them. I could argue that they deserve it, being minorities, but where I live (Kerala) both Christians and Muslims are quite rich (even richer than Hindus) and also influential and powerful. So it is difficult for me to argue that way. I feel this is the basis of resentment amongst many Hindus supporting BJP, and why they are resentful of the immigrant exodus.//

Reservation is a complex topic – however the dominant anti-reservation narrative is obviously not coming from a good place, and rather is from a privilege blind position. But regardless, the whole point of reservation is not for economic uplifment, but rather representation. To avoid injustices related to one group dominating excessively (which would happen without it). Muslims and Christians being the richer lot in Kerala is a seperate topic and needs a more in-depth discussion.

//Another common point of resentment with the BJP supporters I argue with, is that all the money in the coffers of most temples go to the government through Devassom but churches and mosques have the autonomy to use their money. They feel both Congress and the left are biased towards minorities (their vote bank) so only the BJP watches out for Hindu interests.//
Very obviously another propaganda that’s been addressed various times by the ministry. Government of course has a role in Devaswom board, but they don’t touch a penny of the income. That should and is exclusively used for the needs of the temple itself. The funds can’t be appropriated for anything else.

Now second part, re: how only temples are controlled. Needs bit of a historical context – some of the biggest ones had land patronage/wealth from the kings – and later got annexed and transfered based on princely states when it became the part of India. You can read in depth here: https://www.quora.com/How-did-the-temples-of-Kerala-come-under-the-state-government-of-the-Devaswom-board-administration

This unique context doesn’t apply to Churches/Mosques. Neither are all temples controlled by government, obviously.

//Also they worry that Muslims and Christians (the latter especially out here) have more than two children, they are encouraged to have more children by their religious leaders, so eventually over generations they will no longer be minorities.//

Uh so, essentially their worry is how they’d have to swap places with Christians/Muslims, i.e. become a minority? I mean yeah, can’t imagine this level of bigotry being levelled at yourself, can you? 😛

But seriously, not that it deserves a serious response, but still, factually untrue:
https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/5bsICkXvl4t4hXSewk8bkN/Four-out-of-five-Indians-will-still-be-Hindu-even-when-Musli.html

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Vishakha

December 19, 2019

https://carnegieindia.org/2016/06/29/illegal-immigration-from-bangladesh-to-india-toward-comprehensive-solution-pub-63931

This puts things in perspective..

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Heisenberg

December 19, 2019

@gnanamozhi

//Sanjay Gandhi a known Islamophobic tyrant mass sterilised millions of Muslims.

Indiraji butchered Muslims in the heart of Delhi and not a single Indian media house dared even report it

Negruji in his watch butchered 10’s of thousands of Muslims in Hyderabad and buried a report about it (silently published in 2013)//

Let’s assume your Whatsapp facts are true. So if Indian citizens (muslims) are persecuted like this for 70 years, why you worry about persecution of foreigners (pakistani hindus)? Why not voice for Indian muslims and ask Kedi ji to provide justice for Indian muslims?

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Madan

December 19, 2019

Heisenberg : I don’t disagree at all there. You’re right that it is complex. I am simplifying things for the time being to try to make the problems with CAB/nationwide NRC clearer. I just did the same thing with some colleagues who were vociferously defending CAB and had to regrettably resort to good Muslim/bad Muslim cliches to get my point across. But you see, I was able to then at least get to where they could not object to my pov or suggesting I am a Congress supporter etc. In a similar vein, all I am saying is in principle I support the idea that illegal immigrants shouldn’t be here. There would be problems in implementing that for sure. But NRC is an example of a solution that’s way worse than the problem.

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Srinivas R

December 19, 2019

“The pop of Hindus in Pak + Bdesh has gone from 25% to less than 10% in just 50 odd years.” – Fact is it didn’t take 50 years. It took only 5 years, you know why? because large sections of Hindus moved to India after partition. Similar examples can be seen on this side of the border as well e.g. Gurdaspur in Punjab was a Muslim majority area pre-partition and by 1952 Muslim population was reduced to single didgit percents. Also over the last decade the Hindu population in Pak has increased from 1.3% to 1.9%. All these facts are available in newslaundry.com, written by certified right wing ideologue and Swaraj magazine journalist Ranganathan. He was arguing in favor of CAA.

“@srinivas, literal concentration camps, harvesting of organs, literal indoctrination programs, forced sterilisation, Muslims forced to renounce Islam, eat pork etc is the same as NRC? Seriously? Do you not see just how extreme your position is?” – I didn’t drag this comparison, another commentor did (Enigma).

Another question I have, if at all we successfully pull of NRC and identify crores of illegal immigrants? What do we do? Obviously Pak or BD or Afgan are not going to welcome them with open arms. Even if they do, where is the “evidence” that they indeed are originally from those countries. We will keep them in squalid detention centers, police them, maintain the detention center etc. etc. The more I think about it, the more stupid NRC appears.

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Heisenberg

December 19, 2019

@gnanamozhi

Forgot to add. Despite knowing all the facts about nehru-gandhi family, your voice goes for people from other side of the border. You are simply being Anti-Indian by supporting Pakistanis 😂

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gnanaozhi

December 19, 2019

@madan then why the dog whistle taking exceptions (a mob asking a Muslim to say Jai Shri Ram) and making it the norm?

@heisenberg the moment you said Nellie, Turkoman or Polo or the mass sterilisation are “WhatsApp facts” you expose both your ignorance and agenda. I see no value in continuing a discussion with you on this. I guess only 2002 exists in your history book?

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Madan

December 19, 2019

gnanaozhi: No dog whistles, your right wing comrade Mani blithely claimed that Muslims are equal to Hindus in India and I gave one example of how they aren’t. It is also true that while riots have happened from time to time, before 2019, incidents of Muslims being forced to say Jai Shri Ram never happened, not even in the first term of Modi. So what I pointed out was entirely factual and instead of getting so peeved on behalf of the right, consider whether it is justified to subject them to this. I have walked through unruly Muslim dominated localities like Kurla and nobody has ever asked me to say Allah hu Akbar. I have walked through crowds of Muslims celebrating Eid without receiving any stares but I know acquaintances in my community who wince at the mere sight of a mosque. No kidding. Stop playing victim and start taking onus.

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Isai

December 19, 2019

I think any society, from a primitive village to an advanced nation looks at immigrants mainly on these 4 factors: Numbers, Cause, Nature, Future.
Analysing the current situation along these factors:

Numbers: The first concern will be their numbers. Both absolute and relative will be considered. 50 immigrants will be perceived differently by a village of 100 than by a city of a million. That is why the concern of North Eastern tribes resonates a lot with me.

Cause: The next concern would be: why are they here? When they are here due to circumstances beyond their control like floods, war etc., they automatically get sympathy. That is why refugees are always seen more sympathetically. This sympathy will be even more when we are somewhat responsible for their situation. If a dam built by us for our needs, got damaged and flooded another village, we would be more sympathetic towards them than otherwise. Here, the BJP’s decision to give preferential treatment to non-Muslims is not unreasonable, even if their intentions are not genuine. Whether we like it or not, the subcontinent got divided because of religion and the friction caused by it still remains. For if the region was divided into nations on say linguistic basis like Punjab, Sindh etc., this friction wouldn’t have existed, at least to this extent. This preferential treatment will not make sense to South India if we had got a Dravida Naadu. But, as India, it makes sense. Just like if Tamil Nadu becomes a separate Tamil nation tomorrow, it has a moral responsibility to accommodate Tamils living in other parts of India.

Nature: The next question would be to examine their nature. Are they rich? skilled? well built? violent? What are the benefits and disadvantages to us for accommodating them? Immigration in US, Canada etc. brings many benefits that won’t be applicable to India in the current situation. But, based on their proclivity towards violence, Hindus = Bengali Muslims = Shias > Ahmediyas > Rohingyas in terms of preference.

Future: Will accomodating these immigrants cause internal strife or a conflict with another nation? Will it cause more immigration? If yes, how many more? The current population of entire North East (4.5crores) is just around 28% of Bangladesh’s population (16.1 crores).
Again, the population of Bangladeshi Muslims(14.5 crores) is 11 times more than that of Bangladeshi Hindus (1.3 crores). So, BJP has a point in arguing that accommodating Muslims too will encourage far more number of immigrants than otherwise. But for NE, even 1.3 crore hindu population itself is threateningly high. Also, NE fears that if this is legalized, more bengalis from WB (9 crores) too will occupy their lands.

To summarize, while I feel that the BJP is doing this only to consolidate their hindu vote bank and this does divert the attention from more critical issues like economy, it does have a ‘Cause’ and ‘Future’ factors in its favor. But, the concerns of the North East about the ‘Numbers’ and the ‘Future’ factors resonates more with me.

What disappoints me is that BR believed and shared an article that seems so factually incorrect. If this is the clearest information, which is so high on rhetoric and low on facts, someone like BR obtained, I wonder what information reaches the layman.

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sorenkierky

December 19, 2019

Now about NRC + CAA:

It’s extremely clear that the long term plan is to get NRC (and Amit Shah has clarified this multiple times) along with CAA – which would practically amount to ethnic cleansing of Muslims and destruction of indegenous population who are already struggling in states like Assam. In Assam we can already see the effects, of people who are Assamese Muslims, hell, even Soliders (who are routine pawns of the BJP’s nationalist rhetoric) are not part of NRC.

Not to mention suppression of dissent through various ways (which is typical of this fascist government) – it’s like a mini emergency that’s going on. There’s no internet in northeast and various parts of Delhi. Saw one of the MP’s tweet because he got clearence to get into ILP zone and another cheer because Manipur is soon going to become one. They were rambling on about how Kashmir would be open to everyone and whatnot – but people are in the dark about what’s going on there still. Hell, there’s no internet, and journalists had to smuggle themselves in to see what’s going on (and it was not pretty). Who, expect people who are absolutely blind with communalism and hatred wants this?

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Rahul

December 19, 2019

Isai, so basically you have a problem with ANY statistical exercise . Ok, got it. Feel free to ignore.

For others. The basic point is that there will inevitably be false positives and negatives and a high cost associated with them.

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Anu Warrier

December 19, 2019

Anuja, that was a well-reasoned argument from Sanghi; thanks for posting that. But I also agree with Enna Kodukka Sir Pera (May I suggest ‘Nemo’? 🙂 ) that Hinduism, for all its inclusivity, codified an intolerance against its own people.

Madan, Heisenberg, Sorenkierky, Viv – you are all making the points I would, and doing it so well. Thank you.

gnanamozhi, I have no issues with equating Modi and this government to Stalin or Mao either. I chose to use Hitler because he’s eponymous with this kind of behaviour. Be my guest – insert Stalin/Mao wherever I used Hitler. ‘k?

Also, you don’t think fascism is on the rise? I’m insulting the ‘will of the people’? Here’s some thing to chew over – and you may not agree, but perhaps it will give you pause?

These are the 12 early warning signs of the rise of fascism as listed by the US Holocause Museum. (You would agree with me, I hope, that Jews would know something about it?) See how many of these fit the Indian scenario, please.

Powerful and continuing nationalism (Check.)
Disdain for Human Rights (Check.)
Identification of enemies as a unifying cause. (Check.)
Supremacy of the military. (We aren’t yet a military nation, but one cannot criticise the army because ‘unpatriotic’, so we will soon get there.)
Rampant sexism. (Check.)
Controlled Mass Media (Check.)
Obsession with National Security (Check.)
Religion and government intertwined. (Check.)
Corporate power protected. (Not entirely sure about this.)
Labour power suppressed. (Not sure about this either – perhaps someone can confirm.)
Disdain for intellectuals and the arts (Check.)
Obession with crime and punishment. (Check – if you go by the rampant rhetoric, but not for themselves, obviously.)
Rampant cronyism and corruption (Check – but this is endemic, and not exclusive to one party.)
Fradulent elections (Check. Again, not restricted to one party.)

I see almost all of these signs here in the US as well, but I’m keeping my fingers crossed that our system of checks and balances will work a bit better than in India. Though I’m not holding my breath.

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abishekspeare

December 19, 2019

Please watch this video. It has a clear and detailed explanation from a judge

View this post on Instagram

A post shared by Upword (@upword_)

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hari

December 19, 2019

Madam ” incidents of Muslims being forced to say Jai Shri Ram never happened” how sure are you of this? No one can say this for sure. Only that you were not aware of it because media did not publish this before. Now unfortunately some people will say “say jai shri ram all you want but please remember the connotations behind it” alas (because of some lunatics our jay shri ram gets misappropriated).

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hari

December 19, 2019

abishekspeare Sai Deepak is not a judge but a very articulate lawyer who specializes in Indic causes.

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Amit Joki

December 19, 2019

I don’t have any experience or the knowledge of the divide in the days of pre-Independence so if anyone can shed a light over this, I’d be enlighted.

The whole point of Hindu rashtra seems to have born out of the fact that the partition was allowed to take place based on religious grounds. It is whataboutery to imagine what would have happened if the country hadn’t partioned in the first place but surely, the idea of a Hindu rashtra wouldn’t have been so spread out.

Partioning India on the religious grounds I think triggered this whole idea of Hindu nation and let it grow to the extent it has now. It gave a sense of entitlement that if all X can have Y nation, why can’t Z be our own nation?

Apart from this musing, I think the religion shouldn’t have been part of the bill in the first place and it would have still worked fine.

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Sanjay

December 19, 2019

The way these RSScals have brought this legislation as if illegal immigration is India’s biggest problem at the moment. We are a First World Nation and have to rush to close our borders.

The aim of all this is to scare minds with rest to come via continued diversions. On Twitter people followed by Modi brigade are already asking Muslims to leave India. One must tell the RSScals work towards giving the 1.3 billion decent schools, hospitals, jobs, food. The cities and villages now look like garbage dumps. Stop wasting everyone’s time and money and attend the basics first. Even Bangladesh has gone ahead with their per capita income and very shortly Indians in north east will be migrating there. This is an exercise in whipping up paranoia and hatred. No more.

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The Ghost Who Walks

December 19, 2019

I think with all the Hullabaloo on the linking of NRC and CAA, lot of people are missing the fundamental issue with CAA. That first the first time since the nation came to existence, citizenship is being linked to religion, betraying the very secular ethos of the nation.

I find it hard to believe that educated people don’t realize this. The alternate is truly horrific though.

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Madan

December 19, 2019

hari: In theory, it is possible indeed that somebody did force Muslims to say JSR before 2019. The question then is why were there no such incidents reported in the first term of Modi either? Not like media was wholly charitable to Modi on the issue of communal harmony during the first term either. So you will have to agree that at least the frequency of such incidents has gone up so much that they have to be reported. I will tell you another thing. The watchman of my building, a Brahmin from UP, is very insistent on greeting people with Jai Siya Ram and expects to be greeted likewise. He started this from around the time the Ayodhya verdict was delivered. There are no Muslim occupants in the building but there are two Christian families. Don’t know that he cares. It is entirely possible that the situation in South India is so normal/unchanged that you wonder what the complaints are about but for sure things are not the same up North.

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Madan

December 19, 2019

“The whole point of Hindu rashtra seems to have born out of the fact that the partition was allowed to take place based on religious grounds. It is whataboutery to imagine what would have happened if the country hadn’t partioned in the first place but surely, the idea of a Hindu rashtra wouldn’t have been so spread out.” – The history of the events leading up to Partition is very complicated but let us say this is a combination of three things:

(a) British playing sick divide and rule tactics, starting with Bengal. Remember Bengal was broken up way back in 1905, so there was a precedent for partition along religious lines already. The carrot had been dangled.

(b)The Hindu right demanded that Muslims should either leave India or convert to Hinduism. Veer Savarkar and others were the founders of the thing called Hindutva, basically. So let it be very clear that the idea of Hindu rashtra preceded Partition and in many ways created the impetus for it.

(c) Cynical opportunism on the part of Jinnah combined with Congress sidelining Muslim League. This combined with (b) convinced enough Muslims that they would need a separate country and their existence in India would be fraught.

In history, there are many sources with these in turn offering different views. I am not a historian and cannot tell you which account is the most reliable. But I have read Freedom At Midnight by Dominique Lapierre and Larry Collins and they do not paint a pretty picture of Jinnah, saying he bargained very hard for Pakistan and forced Mountbatten’s hand.

I will further add that since that time till date, the Hindu right has never tired of blaming Gandhi for partition even though he was firmly against it and correctly foresaw the bloodshed that would follow (and that they also take no accountability for the bigotry they spread then because they are convinced the idea of an Akhanda Hindu Bharat is right). It may be added further that breaking up Punjab and Bengal (to give the ‘Muslim’ portion away to Pakistan and keep the Hindu one in India) was Mountbatten’s ‘brilliant’ idea. Yes, then as now, these fashionable boarding school Brits caused nothing but trouble. Jinnah warned him that breaking up Punjab would be a disaster but Mountbatten was adamant and claimed to find no other way to draw up the border.

So why did all four key players – Gandhi, Nehru, Patel and Jinnah – eventually agree, willingly or otherwise, to something they probably saw would be a disaster? Because the aftermath of WW2 and a Labour govt led by Clement Atlee taking charge in Britain offered a brief window of opportunity for India to grab independence. Had it been up to Churchill, he would have said “over my dead body” to any thoughts of Indian independence. Yes, let me document it here that the same Churchill that Gandhi-haters so admire was an ardent colonialist and pretty racist even by the standards of his time. And Churchill DID come back to power in 1951 by which time, of course, India had even adopted its Constitution and started life as a Republic. Gandhi remained opposed to Partition even at this juncture (when Atlee had come to power) but Nehru and Patel compromised, sensing that this was an opportunity to finally win the independence they had fought for for so long. Perhaps all four made mistakes but they were fallible men who showed great leadership at a critical time (Jinnah defended and secured the release of Lokmanya Tilak from charges of sedition, for example, just to record that he was no Hinduphobe) to take on the 800 pound gorilla, the mighty British Empire.

There is truth to the suggestion that because Pakistan is an Islamic nation, there is a grouse held in some quarters in India that “we should have sent the Muslims there too” (not saying this is a good thing to say). However, please remember that the man who spearheaded the Two Nation Theory and won Pakistan as his prize, Jinnah, also preached secularism just like Nehru/Gandhi/Patel.

He said in a speech in the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan: “”You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed – that has nothing to do with the business of the State.” If I changed the name of the country there, you would think Nehru said this.

Unfortunately, Jinnah was already severely ill as of 1947 (a fact he succeeded in hiding from everyone) and passed away in 1948. After that, the clerics took over govt and demanded an Islamic Constitution. Now consider a scenario where Godse shot not only Gandhi but also Nehru and Patel. In such a situation, the Congress Right (yes, such a thing existed and isn’t completely dead even today, ask the victims of Kamal Nath and Jagdish Tytler) MIGHT have taken over control of govt. Would we still have had the enlightened leadership in the early years that we did then or would we have already started drifting towards Hindu Rashtra at that time? So it was circumstance that put India and Pakistan on hugely divergent paths back then. It was not something people knew or could have known at the time. Please also note that because Pakistan had an Islamic constitution doesn’t necessarily mean it was always regressive. Looking at photos of 1970s Lahore or Karachi should make this clear. The sharp turn towards hardline Islam was the work of the army general Zia Ul Haq. By which time of course, India had only just emerged from a disastrous flirtation with Emergency. Our independent history is fraught in many ways too. Maybe we are a little more open in discussing these flaws than them (Pakistanis), I don’t know.

Lastly, one very important point. There was bloodshed on both sides during Partition. This pretense that Indians allowed Pakistanis to move there peacefully while they butchered us must end. And this is something Indians know about very well. Or at least I thought we knew until we decided only Whatsapp University history is worth studying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India#Independence,_population_transfer,_and_violence

I quote, “Virtually no Muslim survived in East Punjab (except in Malerkotla) and virtually no Hindu or Sikh survived in West Punjab.”

The violence during partition was well depicted in the blockbuster Sunny Deol starrer Gadar (but don’t dare watch the second half…or watch it for ‘so bad it’s so good’ entertainment). I am not sure you could make that movie today without some group standing up and claiming they are deeply offended and their sentiments are hurt by this ‘false portrayal’. But these facts were very much mainstream and well acknowledged at least until recently.

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Shalini

December 19, 2019

“It is also true that while riots have happened from time to time, before 2019, incidents of Muslims being forced to say Jai Shri Ram never happened,”

That’s a rather silly assertion to make and one that undermines the very point you were trying to make. Whether it has ever happened before or not, surely we all agree that it’s wrong to compel someone to utter phrases pledging allegiance to a faith they don’t ascribe to?

“I have walked through unruly Muslim dominated localities like Kurla and nobody has ever asked me to say Allah hu Akbar. ”

Well, I have walked through peaceful kochas of Srinagar and been stopped and made to say “Allah-hu-Akbar.” Many times. As a child. By adults.

The number of folks on this thread who seem to believe that they know the truth of the lived experience of everyone in India (a land of 1 Billion plus denizens) is staggering and beyond depressing.

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Spandana Vaidyula

December 19, 2019

Probably a tangential point, but no country can afford to accept every immigrant seeking asylum in current climate. Does CAA have a reasonable limit as to how many such immigrants will be naturalised considering the impact on economy or demographics?

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theeversriram

December 19, 2019

@Hari nice comment on Rohingya Muslims. I have worked in the past with few virtue signalling, so called liberal, internet warriors; but when actually asked to come and help on several causes that they claim to support, I have received nil to negligible response. Even if they come it is only for photos 😉
CAA is passed in parliament with support of ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES across India. How can it be fascist or doctorial ?

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lapogadnan

December 19, 2019

@Theeversriram: Hitler was DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED too.. fascism comes in many forms and faces..

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hari

December 19, 2019

Oppose all you want, that is the hallmark of any democracy. But don’t involve in damaging public property. Create a unified opposition against this government. The moment people will realize that there is a viable alternative they will reject this government. But don’t involve in fear mongering. Don’t involve in hate. Just because you don’t like RSS, Modi or Shah don’t go calling names and say this is what the right wing does, how different are you from them then?Don’t tell the neutrals that nobody will come to you when you are in danger, they know how to handle themselves, this is not how you make them join your bandwagon. The problem with “leftist and liberals in India” is they are no different than the right wing. Such a good opportunity to put a unified opposition against NAA but they floundered big time, such a sad thing for the country though.

A muslim friend of mine gave his perspective to me:- “boss a lot of these liberal types are pissed off at the government for article 370, ram janmabhoomi and now this act, so they are venting out” point to ponder

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Siva

December 19, 2019

Santa: ” I think the Economist summarized it best: ‘Seldom has apparent magnanimity disguised such malevolence.’ ”

That is a nice quote. It reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:

Villainy wears many masks. None so dangerous as the mask of virtue.

(From the 1999 movie, Sleepy Hollow)

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Anu Warrier

December 19, 2019

CAA is passed in parliament with support of ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES across India. How can it be fascist or doctorial ?
Hmm… heard of Nazi Germany? (Or Stalinist Russia or Maoist China [for my friend here who’s so offended by the use of Hitler as an example?]) Heck, take a look at what’s happening in the US Senate. They are elected representatives too. And yes, they are fascist, many of them. The rest are merely spineless. We are living this reality here. Just being ‘elected representatives’ doesn’t mean squat!

And as for helping with the cause, of course you know every one of us ‘liberal internet warriors’ don’t help? Because to opine here on this blog, or anywhere else, I should first prove my credentials on the ground? GTH.

@

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Mani

December 19, 2019

@ Heisenberg //You just stopped short of listing muslim celebs from Sharukh to Abdul Kalam as an example of how we treat muslims. While not even all Hindus are treated equally, its quite delusional to think muslims are treated equal.//

The fact that at the throw of a whisker you could bring 2 eminent personalities following Islam who had been recognized/revered across India in itself shows Muslims are not discriminated.
Can I challenge you to pull Hindu (or rather non-muslim) names from Bangladesh or Pakistan who had reached high ranks?

What I am trying to say is in terms of education, opportunities and scope to follow their way of living – India has been very secular for all religions…It continues to do so! Only when govt wants to take a decision based on national interest, opposition creates a different image. And unfortunately there are millions who buy-in this false propaganda from opposition!

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hari

December 19, 2019

@Shalini – tell me about it. Even today parents take their kids to a mosque in case a kid doesn’t sleep properly or wets his pants. So saying as if Muslims are the secular lot and Hindus are not is a big joke at best.

Jai Shri Ram is a common greeting in India, period. No matter what. Yes a security guard gets confidence that his temple is getting built by this government and he greets with a jai shri ram, I see no problem in that.

If someone hears someone uttering “allah hu akbar” in a flight and gets frightened he/she is called an Islamaphobe, so what should one call a person who feels jittery when he/she hears “jai shree ram”

@Madan, regarding what media wants to report and what not, is a good question. In India, media acts god, it picks and chooses the news they want to report. On one hand they will report a Dalit/Muslim getting lynched by a Hindu crowd but on the other hand they will not report the lynching done on a dalit by a muslim crowd, heck even the Dalit leaders will not talk about it. On the one hand it will report about a muslim beef trader getting hit but they will not talk about the hit they perpetrate on a poor Hindu farmer who is trying to save his lifestock. This is all part and parcel of the so call media in India and it is us who should be aware to read what and what not to read. Before elections you will see a particular trend of news getting reported and it will fizzle out once elections are over, we have seen this over and over. So yeah MSM is a joke in India.

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sai16vicky

December 19, 2019

@Anu: I think your 12-point reasoning for fascism is flawed in two ways. First, you have just broadly classified each point as check — (let’s take one example)

Fradulent elections (Check. Again, not restricted to one party.)

This implies what exactly? That it has happened at least once or it is prevalent? If it is the former, I could make a case that every country is heading towards a fascist regime. Now is it prevalent? You have not provided any empirical statistics to substantiate your claim. In fact, on the contrary, India has been lauded time and again for the smooth conduct of elections (see for e.g., https://mea.gov.in/articles-in-foreign-media.htm?dtl/23200/India+can+be+role+model+in+conducting+smooth+elections).

Now, to the second objection. These twelve points were reverse-engineered after the holocaust happened. In particular, people did a causation analysis on what all led to it. Even if we agree that all things you state are indeed happening (for sake of argument) and correlate it with events leading to holocaust, there is a simple rule of thumb that says “correlation does not mean causation”.

More generally, almost all accusations on the lines of — death of democracy, voices being silenced and rising nationalism are empirically not substantiated. They are more hearsay because it’s in the news/social media.

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Isai

December 19, 2019

“Isai, so basically you have a problem with ANY statistical exercise.”

Rahul, just now, I googled the report:
http://www.rightsrisks.org/press-release/the-economic-cost-of-draft-nrc-poor-made-extremely-poor/

Search for Bhuli Das. In her testimony, she says none of her 6 family members were included in NRC and that the family had to spend Rs. 10000. So, the average per person cost is 10000/6 = 1667. But, in the annexure table below, she is counted as 1 person but the amount still remains Rs.10000. When such figures get averaged and then multiplied by 19 LAKH, you can imagine the magnitude of errors.

A stranger case is the testimony of the highest spender Ananta Mandal, a daily wage labourer who says that he has spent 1 lakh just for himself. The problem is that his name or the amount 1 lakh is not even there in the annexure table. But, the total in the table is still coming out correctly as Rs.11,82,000 as mentioned in the report. How is this even possible?

Just skim through the testimonies and you can see how poor the report quality is. The sad part is this gets released and reported in 1 media (article that you shared) and then the Hindu takes this false number of Rs. 7800 crore and shares it disguised as a fact. (https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/over-19-lakh-excluded-from-assams-final-nrc/article29307099.ece)

Further, this same rights group has released an editorial LAST YEAR comparing NRC with Idi Amin and Nazi Germany. Now, the same group conducts a survey THIS YEAR and prepares a numerical figure that is entirely based on what people said. Now, if BJP releases a survey that says that 80% of Indians support NRC, will you accept it in good faith? How is this report any different, in terms of credibility?

Even in the best scenarios, such exercises are only guesstimates and shouldn’t be taken too seriously (pls read this:
https://www.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/stories/2003/10/13/editorial3.html)

To answer your question, I have a problem with many such exercises which get reported in newspapers but which seems motivated by an agenda. This one is egregious and laughably bad.

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Enigma

December 20, 2019

I have known or worked closely with 5 Indian Muslims in my life. Of these 3 are Pakistan supporters (I.e. 60%). One of these guys, back in 91-92 when I was in high school, passionately supported Pakistan in cricket – we had an argument and he declared himself to be a Pakistani. This was before babri masjid and this guy was a Tamil Muslim who couldn’t speak a word of Urdu. I knew two other guys at different points in time who couldn’t hide their support for Pakistan. Only one of my Indian Muslim acquaintances supported India, in cricket or otherwise, and he happened to be a Shia.

The reason I mention this is that things are not as simple and straight forward as the liberals would like us to believe. For a majority of the muslims it is ummah that comes first. Nothing wrong, that is what their religion teaches them. We will have to protect our interests and take care of our own.

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RastaMaria

December 20, 2019

Contrary to what many have argued here, I do think CAB and NRC are far sighted measures.

The way our economy is going it will help Pakistan and Bangladesh to identify Indian illegal immigrants that much more quickly and deport them before they get to pass that six year mark.

Now, if we could only find a way to pass or sell all our Aadhar data to them…

Have been following the arguments here, for and against, and BR, it is for the good.

Arguments educative, misinformed, polarized, and many other shades.

The best I liked was that of Madan’s which placed Partition history in context.

Partition is something that most people do not know or do not actually read up on, a malaise of misinformation has therefore flooded the landscape. Complete idiots have gained complete expertise in this area and therefore the insipid Whatsapp forwards.

Partition was a time when a decision was forced upon the participants for reasons many, the fallout of which has come to haunt Pakistan more than us. Once Jinnah died, things took a turn to the worse, and the supposed country of peace has never known peace again.

Or stability!

Or prosperity!.

Their extreme religiosity has, in the long run, taken them to the dogs…

Now it looks like it is our turn.

Let us face it, most people who don’t like CAB and NRC feel the coming of evil, in their bones.

There is no real evidence; that much is true, but the Stephen King feeling is very much there.

More repugnant is the fact that this is coming from the group that thought demonetization was a fun exercise, and still argues that it was necessary. Again, a set of complete idiots with complete expertise, this time in economics.

Only Gods know what set of expertise they wish to demonstrate next…

It is in this context that the civil resistance need to be seen in

That we stop them from executing the next step of brilliant ideas that promise to make India great again. Nothing good is going to come out of this bunch, whatever their supporters may say.

I should know, I was a supporter once.

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Mani

December 20, 2019

Heartening to see this…Clear understanding.

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Madan

December 20, 2019

Shalini: Are you seriously comparing Srinagar to Mumbai? Seriously? The incidents of Muslims being made to say JSR happened in Delhi and Mumbai (and other places), not in North Indian temple towns. So I compared with the appropriate sample. At no point did I say it doesn’t happen anywhere in India. You’re projecting. You too. Wonderful.

I will also stand firmly by the point I made w. r. t no JSR incidents in the past. We have to use reported data as a base. If we’re going to say the previous reported data was false because media never covered such incidents, we cannot discuss anything. This is just a ruse in any case to avoid acknowledging the many ways in which Modi sarkar has made life harder than before for Muslims. If all of this does not convince you or others, please do tell how you propose to explain Modi’s statement that one can identify who all are opposing the Act by the colour of their clothes?

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kaizokukeshav

December 20, 2019

Glad to see the views of HansalMehta… but who is building the bridge from the protestor’s side ?

who is even ‘representing’ these protests ? What are the exact demands to reconsider ? Where is the approach even to connect with the Government other than engaging every university student and gaining political mileage out of it ? Do any of these guy know what to ask the Government instead of accusing Fascism etc.. if fascism was the case BR wouldn’t be posting this blog right now.

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Madan

December 20, 2019

hari :The incidents happened after the election, not before it. And they happened even in Madhya Pradesh which has a Congress govt. So this has nothing to do with the media and the monster has grown large enough that it doesn’t need much Sanghi impetus anymore. The fact that ‘their’ people are in Central Govt is enough to embolden the bigots. However, I can tell that you shall keep on making excuses regardless so I will stop by saying it is utterly laughable to say Muslims are safe when the PM himself says one can identify those who oppose CAB by the colour of their clothes. Yeah, totally reassuring sentiment, isn’t it?

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gnanaozhi

December 20, 2019

@anu -stalin Mao what? I think you are directing some other rebuttal at me. I never spoke about Stalin and Mao.

On that “signs of fascium” it is just so wrong and you are reaching so much that to any person with a modicum of rationality will find lunar crater sized holes in it but you are extremely brainwashed into believing Modi is Literally Hitler and there’s a mass genocide happening here that there is no reasoning with you.

@madan – no offense but do you specialise in bad history?

1) every riot has had Muslims forced to recant the Hanuman chalisa in numbers before being murdered. Even the infamous 199 riots had this phenomenon. And Muslim mobs do the reverse.

2) just because your confirmation bias blinds you doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. A Bharat Yadav (murdered by a Muslim mob in Sept 2019) was repeatedly called Kaffir, which is the equivalent of being asked to say JSR or reciting the Hanuman chalisa.

3)Ankit Saxena was butchered for the sin of being in love with a Muslim girl. Jithu Mohan? Same. A Dhruv Tyagi was butchered by a Muslim mob for the sin of protecting his daughter from being molested and I could go on endlessly. You lot pretend as though there is only Hindu on MusLIms violence when there is just the same number or more of Muslim on Hindu violence.

4) read Paul Brass’ seminal work on Hindu Muslim violence, The Production of Hindu Muslim violence in contemporary India or Ajay Varghese’s The Colonial Origins of ethnic violence in British India (I can refer 5 other books on this topic fyi) and you will know that being made to chant Jai Shri Ram, recite shlokas or Quran verses is something all mobs have done since 1885! Yet in your history books just because you are ignorant about real history it started only in 2019? Just because you are ignorant of history doesn’t mean it didn’t take place now did it?

Finally Savarkar demanded the partition first? What rubbish. Muslim ideologues have been demanding or insisting on a two nation theory from the time of Syed Barelvi (a century before Savarkar wrote about it)

Besides I trust Ambedkar is a good source for you? Because if he is and he is not “le evil Sanghis”, he explicitly says that Savarkar never asked for Partition. Savarkar wanted a state where no faith was given a priority and there were no reserved constituencies. Your version of history is really twisted (this actually is exactly what Mani Shankar Aiyar said btw, so congrats on repeating what a Congi mouthpiece said verbatim)

You really need to read some actual history as so far pretty much all your claims are just grossly incorrect.

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Madan

December 20, 2019

Rasta Maria: I supported them too. At least in 2014. That is why I find it so funny to receive labels like liberal or Congressi or leftist. Ha, I was firmly center right before the meltdown. That was the first time I had doubts about the economic right. Similarly, since 2014, the never ending litany of lies and deception has worn me off the cultural right too, pretty much for good. I mean if I have to choose between Stalin (not Mu Ka Stalin!) and a right wing party, I might have to choose the latter (or I might simply not vote at all). But I am nowhere close to an extreme left guy. What I did not know in 2014 was the thing I was voting for enabled a dangerous cult of personality. I agree with what you said about civil resistance too (albeit some of it is not so civil and I don’t condone that). For the first time, we have seized the agenda. It is now the bhakts who are desperately arguing about why there is nothing wrong with CAA at all and trying to get us to agree, just so the protests may stop. When we made the point in a logical way many times about the problems with some of this govt’s decisions, we never got a fair hearing and just a load of whataboutery BS with miraculous diversions of economic debates into Hindu khatre mein hain. Now they want to have a talk, huh! Cry me a river!

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Enna Koduka Sir Pera

December 20, 2019

@ RastaMaria – I enjoyed your writing style (and the content too)! And you have so well captured the feeling here -“There is no real evidence; that much is true, but the Stephen King feeling is very much there.”

I am sharing a link to a video that has a simple and clear explanation of the implications of NRC. Please definitely watch and decide for yourself. NRC in it’s current form will be anti-poor (how many daily wage laborers/farmers/homeless who struggle to feed their family everyday will have documents to prove their ancestry/residency or get the time to apply for the documents) and, NRC tied to CAA is not where we want India to go towards.

@Anu Warrier – Thanks for the suggested name. But, for a second, I misread it as NaMo and then decided that I would rather be forever searching for a name 😛

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Viv

December 20, 2019

@sai16vicky: I think that’s what is referred to as “learning”. A horrific chapter has played out in humanity’s timeline. You understand what happened and try not to repeat the mistakes.
Or, one could ignore those lessons, as you seem to suggest, and let it play out all over again,

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Anu Warrier

December 20, 2019

Saivicky, co-relation is not causation. I never said it was. These are but warning signs – reverse engineered? Perhaps. That doesn’t make it not true. And if you’re telling me that elections in our country are fair and have no fraud at all, I have a bridge to sell you. The Election Commission identifies enough cases of voter fraud, booth capturing, goondaism, etc., every election year.

Voices being silenced are not empirical facts? I’m a former journalist. I’m in touch with ex-colleagues who are still in the field. I know of colleagues who have lost their jobs for being critical of the government. I know colleagues who are told by management not to write a report a certain way, or at all. I know people in the government who, if they are known to be critical of the government, have been sacked, and false cases filed against them, their families’ homes raided. There is a systemic silencing of dissent, and the use of government power against individuals.

I am not on social media. I don’t get my news from these platforms. I keep my ear close to the ground, and listen to what is said, and more importantly, not said; what’s done, and more importantly, not done.

You don’t have to agree with me. But don’t tell me that everything is hunkydory with this government.

As for ‘every country heading towards being a fascist regime’ – you never spoke a truer word. There are many countries now that are veering to the far right. And the rise of fascism is an ever present danger that is being taken very, very seriously in the Western Hemisphere. They have seen it happen once, and they know the signs – they would like it to not happen again, but time and again in the recent past, far-right leaders have taken the reins.

Here, in the US, too, we are seeing the rise of authoritarianism. Not in my wildest dreams could i have imagined a sitting senator declare – before a case he’s set to try in his capacity as elected representative of the people – that his mind is made up and he’s going to kill the case, because he doesn’t care about being fair. What we are seeing here – and in many countries around the world is a rise in personality cults. The danger this portends is not a mirage.

The Us vs. Them narrative sickens me. But I will sign off. This is an issue on which people have decided opinions and I have said all I have to say. I’d rather not repeat myself.

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Anuja Chandramouli

December 20, 2019

Oh, for crying out loud! I am still trying to stay abreast of all this and the one thing that really gets to me is that it is so damnably hard to form a clear perspective in the midst of all this ballyhooing. I am all for ‘peaceful protests’ but that is practically an oxymoron in the present scenario with the rampant burning, looting and destruction of public property by antisocial elements.

Can’t help thinking this is so typical of Indian politics. Everybody gets so worked up about CAA and NRC (which is probably the idea in the first place to distract the populace from other pressing issues) while the economy goes to hell, women get raped and burnt to death, and far too many children don’t have clean water to drink, food to eat or access to a decent education. Whatever happened to Swacch Bharat? I would love to step out for once and not have to endure the sight of towering piles of garbage or charming folks defecating wherever they can. Ugh…

Just once it would be nice to see a government committed to rectifying these evils instead of fixating endlessly on religion/caste etc. But then the divide and rule policy which we blame the Brits for has been the mainstay of this land since time immemorial and we stagnate in this fetid swamp of divisiveness.

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Sifter

December 20, 2019

Everything the present government does is anti-poor, anti lower-middle-class, anti middle-class. It only favours the rich. And of course they are anti-muslin.

I am not surprised that they tabled this Citizenship Act.

Slowly, they are trying to make our country the rabid-hindutva way. Watch out, slowly, they will try to make it a country where only upper-class rules. They will give explanations from Geetha,and Chanakya’s Arthasashtra to justify their acts of oppression against the people they deem as the lower-class or castes.

And we should watch-out as women, Manusmrithi is going to be aimed at us to make us the way they think we should be. Only suitable to be married-off early to be able to give birth to strong sons, to be only doing house-hold chores, to be seen (at times), but not heard, No education necessary. Just live for the ‘Ram’ of the man in the household.

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Heisenberg

December 20, 2019

//The fact that at the throw of a whisker you could bring 2 eminent personalities following Islam who had been recognized/revered across India in itself shows Muslims are not discriminated.
Can I challenge you to pull Hindu (or rather non-muslim) names from Bangladesh or Pakistan who had reached high ranks?//

From the top of my mind I can name Soumya sarkar, Danish Kaneria, etc. Google can throw out even more names. Will that mean Pakistan or Bangladesh also values secularism and Hindus can come up and they don’t need India’s help for citizenship?

That is a pointless exercise. A handful of famous people from any minority community in any country does not mean the countries do not discriminate. Just as Obama becoming US President doesn’t mean racism has ended in US, SRK or APJ achieving in their life does not mean muslims are not discriminated in India.

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theeversriram

December 20, 2019

@Anu Warrier, what exactly is your definition of fascism? And who gets to define that? Assuming even if you & liberal gang want to label someone/something as fascist and that idea has been rejected by the people in a democratic elections, means the people don’t agree with your definitions. You can always argue that elections are not perfect, majority is not always right, etc but this is the least problematic system that we have now and in Indian elections it is always first past the post.

Shouting Hitler, Nazi Germany every single time does really make people tired (remember boy crying wolf wolf), people are tired of stereotypical, negative narratives.

And I was talking about the few people I know who are liberal internet warriors but do nothing beyond it. For people to take you seriously you must walk the talk, at least try. You can write essays on communism all the time but if you I’ll treat your household maid then you obviously don’t mean what your preach.

Beyond this I don’t know who you are and what you actually do, so I don’t mean any disrespect to your work/efforts, if any.

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Madan

December 20, 2019

gnanozhi : Once again, you’re talking about riots. I am talking about accosting a lone person on the street in a normal (as opposed to a communally charged) atmosphere and making him chant Jai Shri Ram. That did not happen before. Not even in Modi’s first term. There is no record of it. I also did not say that Muslims have never forced Hindus to do vice versa but I have not experienced that in the same city where they have been made to chant JSR. It is a like to like comparison. That Hindus in this or other big cities justify forcing Muslims to say JSR while the mere sight of a mosque triggers them. Yes they exist and many of them voted for BJP in 2019.

I also never said Veer Savarkar called for partition. Can you point, again, to one sentence where I said so? You seem to specialise in deriving wild interpretations of what the other person says when what they say does not conform with your opinion.

No, of course, Savarkar nor anybody in the Hindu Right did not call for partition. That was the whole point. They would not allow partition and they also would not tolerate Muslims in India unless they converted back to Hinduism. Then as now, they simply made life difficult for everyone by taking up an untenable position and holding no accountability, till date, for the problems they created by this.

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gnanaozhi

December 20, 2019

@madan, this is what you said,

(b)The Hindu right demanded that Muslims should either leave India or convert to Hinduism. Veer Savarkar and others were the founders of the thing called Hindutva, basically. So let it be very clear that the idea of Hindu rashtra preceded Partition and in many ways created the impetus for it.

Both of this are categorically false. The idea of a “Hindu rashtra” was not the impetus. Muslim ideologues have been pushing for 2 nations by constantly harping on how Hindus and Muslims were absolutely not compatible far far before the Hindu right became an idea.

Here is Savarkar that you lot so demonise on the question of Muslims and partition.

When once the Hindu Maha Sabha not only accepts but maintains the principles of “one man one vote” and the public services to go by merit alone added to the fundamental rights and obligations to be shared by all citizens alike irrespective of any distinction of Race or Religion. . . .any further mention of minority rights is on the principle not only unnecessary but self-contradictory. Because it again introduces a consciousness of majority and minority on Communal basis. But as practical politics requires it and as the Hindu Sanghatanists want to relieve our non-Hindu countrymen of even a ghost of suspicion, we are prepared to emphasise that the legitimate rights of minorities with regard to their Religion, Culture, and Language will be expressly guaranteed: on one condition only that the equal rights of the majority also must not in any case be encroached upon or abrogated. Every minority may have separate schools to train up their children in their own tongue, their own religious or cultural institutions and can receive Government help also for these,—but always in proportion to the taxes they pay into the common exchequer. The same principle must of course hold good in case of the majority too.
“Over and above this, in case the constitution is not based on joint electorates and on the unalloyed National principle of one man one vote, but is based on the communal basis then those minorities who wish to have separate electorate or reserve seats will be allowed to have them,—but always in proportion to their population and provided that it does not deprive the majority also of an equal right in proportion of its population too.”

“The Moslem minority in India will have the right to be treated as equal citizens, enjoying equal protection and civic rights in proportion to their population. The Hindu majority will not encroach on the legitimate rights of any non-Hindu minority. But in no case can the Hindu majority resign its right which as a majority it is entitled to exercise under any democratic and legitimate constitution. The Moslem minority in particular has not obliged the Hindus by remaining in minority and therefore, they must remain satisfied with the status they occupy and with the legitimate share of civic and political rights that is their proportionate due. It would be simply preposterous to endow the Moslem minority with the right of exercising a practical veto on the legitimate rights and privileges of the majority and call it a “Swarajya.” The Hindus do not want a change of masters, are not going to struggle and fight and die only to replace an Edward by an Aurangazeb simply because the latter happens to be born within Indian borders, but they want henceforth to be masters themselves in their own house, in their own Land.”

In a nutshell,

1) every Indian has one man one vote (just an expression, lest you and Anu cry misogyny, it includes women)

2) No terms of minority or majority, every citizen enjoys the same rights and duties before the law.

3) NO partition, no conversion nothing.

This is PURE secularism and directly contrary to what you claim.

Tell me truly, have you even read on these topics before making the audacious claims you do?:

Just fyi the call for a 2 nation India goes back to the 1830’s by Muslim ideologues, the Mahasabha came into being much later.

Yes a fringe extreme did want all Muslims to convert it perish but then you also had a fringe Muslim element that wanted Muslim overlordship over all Hindus, but the position of Veer Savarkar and the Mahasabha is very clear. Again I can refer multiple works on this topic but for the you need to be ready to change your entire worldview as currently you espouse blindly the Marxist hagiograpy.

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sorenkierky

December 20, 2019

I see folks here bring up instances re: wrongdoings of Muslim community (or any other minority/marginalized group). Of course it happens, that’s besides the point – because we’re discussing more widespread, systemic injustices. I’ve had Muslim friends who are constantly hesitant to reveal their religious identity. One of them had to listen some typical right winger rambling on about “those people” (ie Muslims). I’ve never to day had to be uncomfortable or hide my identity like that, even when in Muslim majority pockets.

This hardly means the people who are discrimated against are angels, of course no one who has some basic understanding of how oppression and structures of oppression works will claim that. Just consider the holistic picture re:systemic injustices/discrimination.

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Isai

December 20, 2019

@sai16vicky:
Your comment about election fraud made me curious and I decided to do some googling. This is what I found:

In 2003, a little known author of the book called June, 2004 , a Mr. Lawrence Britt writes an article about fascism (“Fascism Anyone?,” Free Inquiry, Spring 2003, page 20). Studying the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile), Dr. Britt finds they all had 14 elements in common.

He is not a Jew. His book and article was intended as a criticism of the Bush/Cheney regime and paints a dystopian future. Bush gets re-elected and from 2008-2016 of course we had Obama.

In 2017, a Martin Longman sees a tweet which had a photo of a poster from the SOUVENIR SHOP of U.S. Holocaust Museum about the 14 characteristics of fascism mentioned by Lawrence, gets ‘inspired’ to write an article called ’12 early signs of fascism’. I don’t know why he left 2 points but I think he didn’t want to talk about supremacy of military.

But, the explanation given by Martin fits nowhere with the definition given by Lawrence. For example, Lawrence defines rampant sexism as “The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.”
But Martin explains Rampant Sexism as a PERSONAL attribute of Trump:”Trump’s sexism is one of the most transparent and well-established things we know about him.”

Is there any logic here? This just reminds me of my college exams where I was told to just memorize the subheadings and write them in bold and underline them. It doesn’t matter what you write as explanation since nobody is going to read them. Just fill the space with enough words.

And just FYI, that poster has been removed even from the souvenir shop by the curators.

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Madan

December 20, 2019

gnanaozhi: As usual, you are selectively quoting to suit your narrative. Savarkar dubbed Muslims as tantamount to Negroes in the US and even said if they got the separate nation they wanted, there would be civil war as in the US. I have not misrepresented him, I have simply refused to sugarcoat him.

Again, as for partition, I clearly delineated three factors of which I mentioned the demand for a Hindu rashtra as one. I even put the three factors in serial numbers. And YET, you would like to pretend I blame it entirely on Hindutva. No, the problem is not with my reading of history, the problem is you, like those Hindutvavadis, won’t hold your religion to account.

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gnanaozhi

December 20, 2019

@madan,

You explicitly linked the Hindu Mahasabha to Partition and said it preceded Muslim demands (I have copy pasted the exact portion) and they are wrong.

I have provided the exact views of Savarkar on Muslims and you again make up some non existent fact.

Cite your claim please that Savarkar called Muslims the negroes of the USA.

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Madan

December 20, 2019

gnanaozhi: No, nowhere did I say it preceded Muslim demands. Please use your common sense. Savarkar coined Hindutva in 1921 or so and Bengal partition had already happened long back by then. So how would Savarkar precede Muslim demands? You are again simply inferring what you want to infer. I have put maximum blame for partition exactly where it belongs : on the British Empire itself. What irks you is simply that I refused to let off the Hindu right but I do blame them too for Partition. That they didn’t want it is immaterial because they vitiated the atmosphere and convinced fence sitters on the Muslim side to join hands with Jinnah.

I won’t be able to paste the link for the article where Savarkar is quoted as calling Muslims Negroes as I am typing this on a phone so will do it later.

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Madan

December 20, 2019

I read the portion of my comment that you quoted again and let me address the source of your confusion. I was replying to Amit Joki to say that the notion of a Hindu rashtra preceded partition (the event), NOT the demand for partition. Because he asked whether the events of partition had led to the demand for a Hindu rashtra.

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shaviswa

December 20, 2019

See what Manmohan Singh requested for in 2003. 😂😂

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gnanaozhi

December 20, 2019

@madan, I will reproduce your own quote,

)The Hindu right demanded that Muslims should either leave India or convert to Hinduism. Veer Savarkar and others were the founders of the thing called Hindutva, basically. So let it be very clear that the idea of Hindu rashtra preceded Partition and in many ways created the impetus for it

And all of this is false,

1) the Mahasabha did not demand Muslims convert or leave, some fringe orgs did though and they were matched in rhetoric and murder by the Muslim fringe.

2) the idea of the Hindu rashtra stemmed from Muslim demands for a two nation post the Raj. Cause and effect is clear. Influential Muslim ideologues including Jinnah’s guru started pushing the theory that Hindus and Muslims were incompatible and there had to be two nations. The Hindu right then picked up on this and made it their own idea of the Muslim idea.

This series of events is Canon and fact.

I definitely would like to see where Savarkar likened Muslims to second class ne***es in the US though so please share when you can.

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Sanjay

December 20, 2019

For all the debates who did what & when, Indians can ill afford this route plain and simple.
vinash kale viprit buddhi is all one can utter for these times. This full decade 2010-2020 has been a lost case for the country which could have been a jump start to bigger things after the gains made in 90s and early 2000s, First the Congress leaders who pretty much knew they are not going to get a consecutive 3rd term started to plunder nation’s wealth 2010 onwards and from there are on after 2014 we had these two bigots from RSScals school of thought camouflaged as politicians which hijacked the party from its national icons. They were slipped in by vested interest by the Adanis and Ambanis towards the end of 2014 election cycle.

This is the second time India has missed out on a golden opportunity after having failed the 1980-1990 decade. That is exactly the time China began their economic miracle and look where they are placed today. The Chinese at least made good use of their authoritarian system and uplifted the country not only from absolute poverty but now dictating their own terms to the world order.

Guys we are in 2020 and India is still engaged in this Hindu-Muslim façade. These RSScals should have been very pleased to note finally the 200 million odd Indian Muslim which is the 2nd largest in the world after Indonesia is a docile lot and has come to terms with their economic well being as paramount and absorbed all the brickbats thrown at them in the last 6 years and truly assimilated for the greater good. But I am not too sure on Modi’s intellect to visualize the bigger picture and currently engulfed in hate by this Amit Shah working as the Rami Reddy (spot) the actor – villainous to the extent of destruction.

Lets see who does the Indian hero act to take them to task .

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Heisenberg

December 20, 2019

For those of who you who thought Sai Deepak made valid case for CAA, Amit Shah seems to have refuted him on most points

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Madan

December 20, 2019

gnanaozhi: Again, I don’t see how what you have quoted amounts to the interpretation you are drawing for it. You don’t deny either that the Hindu right did call for convert or leave. You only try to soft peddle it saying only some fringe organisations did so (as if it then becomes acceptable). It is very clear from the quoted text that I did not claim that the Hindu right demanded Partition. But when a sect within the majority religion starts using inflammatory rhetoric, it does create an impetus for a separate state for Muslims. And for the last time, I also didn’t say this ALONE caused the Partition. I have clearly mentioned that Jinnah’s games were a reason too. You keep pretending like I never mentioned Jinnah or British anywhere. And this isn’t even for the first time in this thread. What is your point? Sorry, I am not going to write in a way that soothes your views by agreeing to the narratives you hold dear. If you have any new objections, I will respond otherwise no further comments on this topic.

But as for Savarkar calling Muslims niggers, he said this to war journalist Tom Treanor.

“How do you plan to treat the Mohammedans?” I asked him. “As a minority,” he said, “in the position of your Negroes.” “And if the Mohammedans succeed in seceding and set up their own country?” “As in your country,” said the old man, waggling a menacing finger. “There will be civil war.”

https://www.dailyo.in/politics/tom-treanor-vd-savarkar-mahatma-gandhi-hitler-nationalist-hindu-mahasabha/story/1/20207.html

He also said of Indian Muslims and Christians that their love was divided between their fatherland (India, in Savarkar’s conception) and holy land. If this was actually the case, you would not have Muslim army men enroll and fight against Pakistan. Perhaps you do not find such a narrow minded theological viewpoint of humanity troubling, but I do.

And…

” There was nowhere else they would find greater freedom of worship as in the land ‘where a Charvak could praise atheism from the steps of the temple of Mahakal’, he said. If only they recognized ‘our common Mother’ not only as their fatherland but their holy land, they would be ‘most welcome to the Hindu fold’, he stated.

No one need have any misgivings, for ‘we are trying our best’ to ‘develop the consciousness’ and ‘attachment to the greater whole’ so that ‘Hindus, Mohammedans, Parsis, Christians and Jews would feel as Indians first, and every other thing afterwards’,”

https://www.news18.com/news/books/veer-savarkar-believed-some-muslims-and-christians-possess-all-essential-qualifications-of-hindutva-claims-biography-2275599.html

What the actual f does this mean anyway? It is just a sophisticated way of saying Muslims and Christians would be more welcome in India if they ‘returned’ to Hinduism again.

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Madan

December 20, 2019

Sanjay: China is a bad example to use, though, as they HAVE repressed their Muslims already. When you cite them as a poster boy of success, you pretty much make the case for the Indian right who would like to both abandon democracy and bash the hell out of Muslims. Neither of which is going to give us growth or progress. China has done well because its authoritarians are nevertheless subsumed into a committee structure and they work systematically towards clear objectives. I am not sure politicians of either of the two major parties in India have ever shown such managerial prowess; if they did, it would be possible to succeed well while retaining a democratic structure of govt. Like our erstwhile colonial masters who are about to jump off the cliff led by their own blonde authoritarian (to match the one ‘across the pond’), we have a management problem. It is becoming increasingly clear too that this is not merely restricted to govt but extends to many of our large corporates too, who continue to depend both on easy money as well as favour from govts to survive.

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VV

December 20, 2019

@gnanaozhi: This excerpt from “Hindutva tie-up with Fascism in 1930s – Economic and political weekly” by Marzia Casolari (pub. 2000) establishes Savarkar-led Hindu Mahasabha’s support for Nazi Germany ideologies. Couldn’t find his ideological comparison of Indian muslims to American blacks from same period but he does compare Indian muslims to German jews from same period – all the same.

“During Savarkar’s presidentship the anti-Muslim rhetoric became more and more radical, and distinctly unpleasant. It was a rhetoric that made continuous reference to the way Germany was managing the Jewish question. Indeed, speech after speech, Savarkar supported Hitler’s anti-Jewish policy, and, on October 14, 1938,he suggested the following solution for the Muslim problem in India:
A Nation is formed by a majority living therein. What did the Jews do in Germany?They being in minority were driven out from Germany (MSA, Home Special Department, 60 D(g) Pt III, 1938, ‘Trans-lation of the verbatim speech made by VDSavarkar at Malegaon on October 14,1938).”

Also, this paper seems to be an interesting read documenting several Hindu Mahasabha leaders’ affiliation to Right-wing governments around the world at the same time.

PS: Veer Savarkar’s atheistic ideology totally changed over his lifetime mainly motivated by his observations of Abrahamic religious organizations claiming equal space in the Indian (akhand Hindustan) emergence.

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kaizokukeshav

December 21, 2019

@Madan:
He also said of Indian Muslims and Christians that their love was divided between their fatherland (India, in Savarkar’s conception) and holy land. If this was actually the case, you would not have Muslim army men enroll and fight against Pakistan.

But the holy land is not Pakistan, it is Mecca right ? The context of Savarkar’s answer is completely mislead here.

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sai16vicky

December 21, 2019

@Anu: Not sure if you would be following/responding to comments on this thread anymore. In any case, let me post my response.

Voices being silenced are not empirical facts?

Ok, let me ask two concrete empirical questions:
(1) Out of the total number of elections conducted in India (say since 2014), how many have been found out to be fraudulent? Even if you can convince me that 1 in 20 elections at state/central level (which is hardly ~ 5%) have been proven to be fraudulent, trust me, I will immediately agree with you.
(2) Out of the total number of journalists/bureaucrats in India, how many were fired or taken action against for speaking against the government? Here, I will relax my stand even more. Show me 1 in 100 people (~1%) and I will agree with you.

If you can’t give convincing answers to (1) and (2), (with all due respect) you’re working with purely anecdotal evidence and extrapolating it to suit the argument you would like to make.

And the rise of fascism is an ever present danger that is being taken very, very seriously in the Western Hemisphere.

This is precisely the problem. The world moving towards the right makes a lot of sense to me because people have serious existential worries about their way of life and this is their fight against the establishment. See something like Arab Spring — most of the existing governments were toppled. This was a major precursor to 2014 elections in India and 2016 elections in the US. Liberals have distanced themselves from the common public so much that they fail to see all this. Most of these voters don’t even reveal their preferences in public — consider the opinion polls before 2016 US and 2019 Indian elections; how poorly they gauged the eventual result. Until the time when liberals stop comparing every right wing leader to Hitler and endlessly quoting the ’33 elections, I don’t see this stopping any time soon. There is every chance that Trump will get re-elected in 2020 — just see the kind of candidates the Democrats are pitting him against.

One last thought experiment to ponder on (esp. @Madan, I would like to know your take on this):

BJP won almost all seats in the Karnataka by-polls that happened right after their ugly Maharashtra fiasco and the power-grabbing in Karnataka. Why do you think this happened:

Is it because:
(1) elections were gamed?
(2) voters were manipulated/polarized by BJP?
(3) opposition was toothless?

OR:
Something is bothering the voters so much that they want to vote for BJP in spite of all their negativities?

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Siva

December 21, 2019

RastaMaria: ” Their extreme religiosity has, in the long run, taken them to the dogs…

Now it looks like it is our turn.

Let us face it, most people who don’t like CAB and NRC feel the coming of evil, in their bones. ”

That is skillful writing.

And that’s some hard to digest truth.

If I wasn’t scared enough already, now I am.

Thank you for this unsettling feeling 🙂

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Siva

December 21, 2019

Anu: ” Not in my wildest dreams could i have imagined a sitting senator declare – before a case he’s set to try in his capacity as elected representative of the people – that his mind is made up and he’s going to kill the case, because he doesn’t care about being fair. ”

By any chance, are we praising your(sorry! 😀 ) dear old Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell here? If I remember what I read in the news correctly, he has vowed to work closely with Trump on the latter’s Impeachment Trial in the Senate, no? It looks like the GOP longtimer would give his Indian ilks, of the likes of our very own P.Dhanapal (Tamil Nadu Assembly Speaker), Om Birla (Lok Sabha Speaker), Venkaiah Naidu (Rajya Sabha Chairman) and Harivansh Narayan Singh (Rajya Sabha Deputy Chairman) — a run for their hard earned(!) money 😀

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sai16vicky

December 21, 2019

@Viv:

Or, one could ignore those lessons, as you seem to suggest, and let it play out all over again,

That’s not what I suggested. I raised two objections — (1) is there sufficient empirical evidence to show that the 12 points of Fascism are met in India? (2) even if we agree that these 12 points are occurring in India, does it necessarily imply that India is a Fascist regime? Based on the responses, it doesn’t seem like it.

@Isai: Yes, most of these claims are reverse-engineered. People typically start with a hypothesis: “How do I show that Modi/Trump (insert-right-wing-leader) is Fascist?” Then go on to cherry-pick facts to show that this is indeed true (e.g., people went to the extent of comparing Modi’s beach cleaning with Hitler’s megalomania). This, of course, needs great intellectual ability, which folks like Ram Guha have in abundance. Just that it is not being used to improve the nation but instead to throw tantrums.

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Madan

December 21, 2019

Sai16vicky: I do not think the Karnataka bypolls were rigged. At least not over and beyond the regular electoral fraud that happens in India. Things are much better then they used to be. My father had spent a few years in Kolkata before we all came to Mumbai in the late 80s. He said back then, the CPM workers simply wouldn’t let you near the booth and would cast your vote themselves (for CPM). Without EVM, it’s unlikely Trinamool would have ever toppled CPM.

I do not know what Anu Warrier’s circle says. But living in Mumbai and getting opportunities to interact with North Indians or even travel up North, I would say there is very much a strong support at the ground level for Modi. Liberals must digest this reality. Whether or not he rigs polls, he doesn’t need rigging. He or rather BJP was winning several seats by margins well over 1 lakh votes. I think the correct parallel to Modi is Erdogan. Authoritarian, intolerant and strongly dislikes liberalis but does enjoy popular support.

That said, the last couple of state elections – Maharashtra and Karnataka – have seen a softening of BJP support. So they cannot ride the wave of nationalism and Islamophobia perpetually. They will have to fix the economy. If they lose states, their ability to pass laws in Parliament will get hampered. That is the very reason they are rushing through with CAA now. And UCC may follow soon. At a national level, I don’t think there is an alternative that people would buy into yet but five more years of economic mismanagement and people won’t care. India is not a middle income country in the same way that Turkey was, so you cannot stretch the capacity of the working class to bear pain infinitely. Modi must deliver on his economic mandate, political experimentation alone is not enough.

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Madan

December 21, 2019

“But the holy land is not Pakistan, it is Mecca right ? The context of Savarkar’s answer is completely mislead here.” – No, what is implied is that an Indian Muslim soldier would feel conflicted in fighting another who shares the same holy land as his (a Pakistani Muslim). Which doesn’t happen in practice.

The problem isn’t that Savarkar is completely wrong. The problem is he is partially right and partially wrong. That is, some Muslims do exhibit this concept of divided loyalties. Way back in 99-00, when India toured Australia (that disastrous series where Jaywant Lele accurately predicted a 3-0 rout in advance), on the first day of the first Test, I happened to be going by train to downtown from suburban Mumbai (I lived in a place called Kalyan). I still remember that Srinath had got off to a flying start in the opening spell only for Steve Waugh to eventually pull the Aussies out of the rut. So…we arrive at Mumbra and a bunch of Muslims get in (all or most wearing skull caps). They start discussing the score and one of them notes, “Steve Waugh khel raha hai” (Steve Waugh is still playing). The tone of his voice clearly suggested he was happy that the Aussies were recovering. So forget Pakistan, some of these folks would support any team against India.

Does that mean all of them are terrorists, though? Or are all of them liabilities to India? Nope, many of them run successful small businesses and employ people and in turn do business with many others.

Besides which, that is only one type of Muslim. There is the other type I have met who have cousins in Pakistan but absolutely hate Pakistan, maybe more so than us.

So it’s a lot more complicated than Savarkar’s theologically oriented interpretation. There are Muslims like Javed Akhtar who are almost atheist in their orientation too, just like atheist/agnostic Hindus. I remembered watching a discussion involving him and Yogendra Yadav and I watched with amusement as Javed saab strongly called out the extremist or undesirable elements in his community while Yadav tried to account for it or rationalise it.

In short, like Hindus, they are not a monolithic group either.

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Isai

December 21, 2019
Heisenberg, I saw your latest video. But, I don’t see Amit Shah’s statements directly contradicting Sai Deepak (I haven’t seen any other video)

As I said earlier, the primary concern about Immigration is Numbers. I will talk about it clip by clip:
1. The first point that Sai talks about is that CAB does not prevent Muslims from applying for asylum, citizenship or refuge as per existing Indian Laws.
A direct contradiction would be to say that NO FOREIGN MUSLIM (Koi Bhi..) will be able to get citizenship after CAB. But, Amit Shah is pandering to his target audience by saying that we can’t give citizenship to EVERY FOREIGN Muslim (Shah says Jo Bhi..) who wants to come and settle here. These 2 are not the same things. As I said, the concern is about numbers. Remember that tomorrow, say a persecuted malaysian hindu cannot apply under CAB and has to follow the same process as any foreign Muslim, Bangladeshi or otherwise.
1. Next clip shows Sai Deepak saying that this is not an instrumentality of exclusion. A direct contradiction would be to say that this bill has been brought to exclude Indian Muslims.
Amit Shah is shown asking why people are not appreciating the fact that SIX minorities have been included (including Christians) (w.r.t. BJP always being dubbed as a party only for hindus and against Muslims & Christians) and why talk only about Muslims.
1. Sai Deepak says that if Muslims and Hindus in say TN are not having documents during a nationwide NRC, it is NOT THAT Hindus will get citizenship while Muslims won’t.
  Amit Shah is not talking about Indian citizens. He is talking about Hindus & other 5 minorities who have come from Bangladesh etc. This is clearly seen where he says Jo Hindu Sanaarthi Aaye Hain (ie) those who have come here..
2. Sai again repeats the same question raised in 3. Amit Shah is again talking about CAB (and not nationwide NRC) in Parliament.This is specific to Assam NRC/Non-Indian refugees and it makes no sense to apply it nationwide to all Indian citizens. At this point, I thought the video is made with a malafide intent to deliberately MISLEAD the viewer.
3. Both Sai and Amit Shah are talking about non-Muslims of Assam and they seem to be saying the same thing.
4. Sai is again talking about 3. Amit Shah is just saying that NRC will be implemented.
7&8. Sai is again talking about 3. Amit Shah is talking about concerns of Bengali Hindus in Assam, Bengal who have come from Bangladesh. He is assuring them that since CAB will come FIRST, they will get citizenship and hence don’t have to worry about the NRC which will happen after that.

Heisenberg, I suppose you are not too fluent in Hindi. Because, this video seems to have been made just to mislead the viewer. And nowhere does Shah or anyone from BJP seem to have said that say Tamil Hindus will be treated any differently than Tamil Muslims in a nationwide NRC.

I can see that Amit Shah’s tone towards Muslims is hostile. But my concern is that we seem to be judging people on what they would have done/will do SOLELY based on their DEMEANOR. I had told a friend about there being a LOGICAL reason to give preferential treatment to Non-Muslims due to partition. He said that you are saying the same thing as Shah with his face expressing distaste. The next day, there comes a video showing Manmohan Singh saying the same thing and now he doesn’t know how to respond. Even in other fields, this problem is occuring, I think mainly due to social media. A friend said that Sandeep Vanga himself would be a closet woman abuser. I asked him what about Amit Shah? Mostly Yes. What about Manmohan Singh? Definitely No. What about Shashi Tharoor? There he was stumped.

I think this is just an upper class bias against people who don’t use politically correct language and exhibit a polished demeanor.

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ItsVerySimple

December 21, 2019

@Anuja Chandramouli,

Everybody gets so worked up about CAA and NRC (which is probably the idea in the first place to distract the populace from other pressing issues) while the economy goes to hell, women get raped and burnt to death, and far too many children don’t have clean water to drink, food to eat or access to a decent education. Whatever happened to Swacch Bharat? >>

CAA and NRC aren’t a distraction, that’s BJP/RSS’s main agenda. It’s equally important as the other issues you have mentioned. People aren’t getting “so worked up” – they are making sure the State won’t render them stateless like the lakhs of people have been rendered stateless in Assam.

instead of fixating endlessly on religion/caste etc. >>

CAA discriminates on religion. NRC is a bureaucratic nightmare that has affected everyone irrespective of religion and caste in Assam, it will certainly be even worse when implemented across India as pointed by the Home Minister repeatedly over the last few weeks.

Please don’t trivialize the reactions to CAA and NPR, NRC.

(I tried to my best to keep it to the point – but whispers do please think what privilege let you write this silly comment asking to clear garbage on the road when people are “worked up” against protecting their citizenship. Thank you).

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nikkie1602

December 21, 2019

@madan: just an appreciation post. Really like the way you articulate these complex things in such lucid manner.

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ItsVerySimple

December 21, 2019

@sai16Vicky

By calling the actions of the current government fascist, you are disrespecting the public mandate that voted them to power once again (just earlier this year).>>

This is the funniest thing on this thread, kudos. That kind of funny : the one where one wondering how could people call the current climate in India fascist and in the same breadth says something like this.

PS : whispers Forget 12 point guide to fascism, even if there is 600 point guide to fascism, it will fly right over your head.

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ItsVerySimple

December 21, 2019

@shaviswa,

The CAA has nothing to do with NRC. >>

Umm, not really. These are some instances when Amit Shah, the current Home Minister who has the power to get things in action, talks about CAA and NRC, how they make sense together.

If you are BJP fanboy, Trigger Warning : whispers It’s from Alt News.

Amit Shah on CAA-NRC-1 pic.twitter.com/XE4v9UlcI9

— Pratik Sinha (@free_thinker) December 20, 2019

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theeversriram

December 21, 2019

Madan, I agree that Muslims are also a diverse group and cannot be grouped easily but what bugs most Hindus is that Muslims generally vote in masse and Imans in mosques openly run propaganda for parties. Of course political parties use the Imans for their gains.

Main reasons for Hindus voting BJP are:
1. Large number of Muslims unite for Muslim issues whereas Hindus do not and are scattered. Which means politically they are a very very strong Bloc and every political party likes to woo them
2. Muslims are influenced by Saudi culture (maybe due to money flow, jobs, etc) and have started aping them in India. I know several people in Tamil Nadu where the grandparents wear normal clothes, no burqa, minged freely with others but grandchildren wear traditional Muslim clothes & generally distance themselves. I know few of my school friends have changed like this.
3. A general weakening of Hindu beliefs and mockery of Hindu traditions/festivals etc. Especially by the big city, educated upper class types. People see it as a direct attack on them and voting for BJP is a way of protest.
4. Disgust with other dynastic & private limited company political parties
Many liberals, journalists, commentators are far removed from the ground and live in echo chambers. Abusing the voting people is no solution.

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nikkie1602

December 21, 2019

A rebuttal to the Sai Deepak video as made available by Maurya Tej Bendukuri:

( If you want to share this, please copy paste the text, a normal share option for some reason doesn’t reproduce the text)

It is quite concerning to see this video going viral, it has both factual and legal inaccuracies. Half truths, half law and worse, bigotry being passed off as sound constitutional, legal arguments.

1) Sai Deepak says all the three countries- Pak, Bangladesh, Afghanistan were a part of undivided India.
FACT: Afghanistan was never a part of undivided India ever. British India always recognised Afghanistan as a sovereign. Infact Burma was a part of undivided India until 1935 and somehow Burma is excluded from this bill because persecuted minorities like rohingyas are something the govt doesn’t want.
2) This act states that it wants to give citizenship to persecuted minorities, but it somehow excludes persecuted minorities like Shias, ahmadiyas in Pakistan and Bangladesh. Hazaras in afghanistan( primarily shias) suffer a double disability: They are both an ethnic minority and a religious minority- They are persecuted by the taliban ( Sunnis) and the taliban wants to establish a sunni pashtun country in afghanistan.
Even Atheists are persecuted in Pakistan and Bangladesh, None of them are included.
3) when the act states persecuted minorities, it conveniently excludes Muslims without naming them, so it names only Hindus, Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, parsis.

4) If a country like Afghanistan which was not a part of British India and was not affected by partition can be included, then why not Sri Lanka? The Sri lankan Hindus and Muslims are a persecuted lot.
5) He lies when he says at the time of Partition, the Hindu population was 20 percent, firstly there was no census in Pakistan in 1947, then on what basis is this person saying that?
6)According to the 1961 census of Pakistan, the non-Muslim population was recorded at 2.83%. A decade later in 1972, the census recorded non-Muslim population at 3.25% of the total population.In the 1981 census, the non-Muslim population was 3.30%. In the next census carried out in 1998, it was recorded as 3.70% of the total population. According to 2017 census, it is estimated that hindus make upto 4 percent of the population. That said nobody is denying Hindus aren’t persecuted. But what he has said is a half truth. A lie.
5) A large number of non Muslims from both Pakistan and Bangladesh have migrated post 1947 until late 1950’s and the Indian government had given them citizenship already. So he’s lying again. When he says Hindu population had drastically decreased, because they had migrated into India post Partition.
6) He also states that article 14 is an irrational argument and cannot be applied here. He’s wrong. Why?
Article 14 guarantees equality for all “persons”, so it’s applicable equally to both citizens and non citizens. When only non Muslims are being given citizenship while leaving out equally persecuted Shias, ahmadiyas, hazaras who are Muslims, and atheists then this is irrational and violates article 14. Article 14 requires a reasonable classification- which means people grouped together in a group have to be differentiated from those who are excluded on the basis of some rationale/yardstick. If this rationale is unreasonable, it is unconstitutional. How is a classification that only includes non Muslims and ignores persecuted Muslims from these countries a reasonable classification. In Navtej Johar case, Justice Indu Malhotra had further stated that a classification can only be reasonable when it is does not discriminate on an intrinsic and a core trait of an Individual.. She then referred to Article 15 grounds to explain that they form an intrinsic and core trait of an individual. She noted: “Race, caste, sex, and place of birth are aspects over which a person has no control, ergo they are immutable. On the other hand, religion is a fundamental choice of a person. Discrimination based on any of these grounds would undermine an individual’s personal autonomy.
7) There is also the jurisprudence of test of arbitrariness. EP royappa Vs state of TN is a landmark case on this- the supreme court had stated that even if there is reasonable classification, if the legislation seems to be arbitrary for a judicial mind, it has to be struck down, since arbitrariness is antithetical to equality.
How is this Act not arbitrary when it randomly picks, three nations like Pak, Afghanistan, Bangla? Pak and Bangla were a part of undivided India, but not Afghanistan, it had always been a separate country. How is this legislation not arbitrary if it excludes those persecuted Muslim sects?

8) The citizenship amendment act 2019 is publicized as an act that intends to give citizenship to “persecuted minorities”, however act doesn’t even mention the words, persecution or minority. Worse, it does not define what qualifies as “persecution”
9) There is another legal test called colourable legislation, state of Bihar Vs kameshwar Singh is a landmark case on that.
If any legislation is a colourable one, it is struck down by the court.
What is a colourable legislation? A legislation which has one state objective and in reality the objective is something else. Essentially it disguises one objective as another.
When the stated objective here is to provide citizenship to persecuted minorities- the reality is that it is excluding Muslim migrants from the three nations to fastrack their citizenship through naturalization. CAA is brought in to provide cover for NRC.
NRC Assam list was published a month or two back. It had published close to 12 lakh Hindus and 7 lakhs muslims as illegal migrants in Assam. Now this Assam NRC had been cancelled, it costed the state close to 1220 crores and took more than five years of time. People were harassed moving from one place to the other searching for documents to prove citizenship.

10)This CAA will give these 12 lakh Hindu illegal migrants in Assam, citizenship but somehow excludes the illegal muslim migrants in Assam.
How is this rational, equal and fair when Hindu illegal migrants left out of NRC in Assam are now included while you throw the Muslim migrants under the bus?

11)Sai Deepak also stated another half truth, he states that those people who come from these three countries will have “enhanced obligations” which means the state will monitor them. How? He doesn’t state.
Does it mean the state will spy and do surveillance on such people who came from the three nations? What if a person( say a Hindu migrant from Pak) wants to convert to Islam after coming to India, will he then be allowed to convert or the state shall not allow it under- “enhanced obligations”? If the state doesn’t allow people who got citizenship to convert then the state is violating their article 25 which is a fundamental right.

12) In this video he also states that allowing Shias and ahmadiyas into the country could endanger 80 percent of the population? Why? Is it just because they are muslim? How can such an bigoted argument be made on legal grounds?

13) Ahmadiyas are by law in Pakistan not considered as muslims, then would that not put them on the same pedestal as non muslim persecuted minorities under the ambit of the act? Why are ahmadiyas excluded then?

14)How will the Government determine whether the person who had come from Pak/Aghanistan/bangladesh was really fleeing religious persecution? How does one prove religious persecution? How do we ensure there are no people faking religious persecution?

This is an act that is violative of the basic structure of the constitution ( Secularism) , what it does is, it introduces certain privileges ( Fastracked citizenship) on the basis of religion and introduces legalised religious ranking of the same, it has an effect of relegating muslim migrants, solely on the basis of their religion to an inferior status. It has arbitrariness written all over it and in a fair world, deserves to be struck down.

It’s sad that such half truths and misinformation is being spread at a large scale through this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n_bjgrCLjg&t=26s Gautam Bhatia in this video gives a much more detailed and a better explanation as to why this act has to be struck down as unconstitutional.

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Isai

December 21, 2019

ItsVerySimple:

I saw the video that you attached and also 6 other videos that are attached in that Id. This is what I have understood from all videos that I have watched related to this issue:
BJP is saying that Mamata Banerjee is encouraging large scale Muslim migration from Bangladesh since they tend to vote for her en-bloc. To counter this, BJP is intending to bring NRC so that these Bangladeshi muslim immigrants get sent back. BJP is also saying that now Mamata is misleading the non-Muslim Bangladeshi immigrants by saying that due to NRC, they will also get sent back. Amit Shah is reassuring these people like Gorkhas and other non-Muslims that CAB will be implemented first and they will easily get citizenship and NRC will be implemented only after that. He further says that after giving them citizenship through CAB, he will remove Bangladeshi muslims not only from Bengal but from all parts of India. The word that he uses is Ghusphetiyon (Infiltrators/Illegal Immigrants). Let us assume that he means ALL MUSLIMS by that. Then, why does he say in 0:25 in CAA-NRC 3 video that while Illegal Immigration is a nationwide problem, it is more ACUTE in Bengal because it is a BORDER STATE.

If you have seen any video which clearly shows that Amit Shah means ALL MUSLIMS and not just BANGLADESHI MUSLIMS, please do share.

I don’t have any interest in US politics but decided to see Hillary VS Trump presidential debate purely out of curiosity (2nd or 3rd debate). I thought that while both of them were bad, Hillary came out worser in that debate. But, next day, I couldn’t see a single newspaper from US to UK to Australia that said this. Most said that Trump was worser which made me doubt my comprehension skills and wonder if I had missed something. Similarly, this CAB/NRC issue is making me wonder whether I am missing the facts or if there are so many simpletons around who are insecure enough to be easily manipulated through Rhetoric.

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Rahul

December 21, 2019

Isai , can you email the authors of that report with your questions , and ask for an explanation ? Also, how did you conclude that the report was agenda driven ?

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sai16vicky

December 21, 2019

@ItsVerySimple: Thanks for trolling! The very fact that you were not able provide answers to questions I raised and instead resorted to this, only strengthens my case that we are nowhere close to a fascist regime.

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ItsVerySimple

December 21, 2019

@Isai

Let us assume that he means ALL MUSLIMS by that

Please don’t include me in these assumptions. You don’t know me, I don’t know you, but I certainly know who Amit Shah is. I am not assuming what he meant, it’s amply clear to be making assumptions.

If you have seen any video which clearly shows that Amit Shah means ALL MUSLIMS and not just BANGLADESHI MUSLIMS, please do share.

Umm.. sure. A video of Home Minister declaring ALL MUSLIMS will be sent out of the country.. with other Home Ministers, I would have been sure it will never happen but with Amit Shah you never know. Dude is the real deal.

Assam, historically, had a reason to go with this exercise. However fatal, tragic and awful the exercise has now turned out to be, please note – it started decades back and the exercise has entered it’s long final phase. Whether it started for the right reasons – I am not even going there. It has resulted in an event – a remarkable event in Indian history – in which 19 lakh people have been listed as possible immigrants and possible stateless, possible Guspetiyon or whatever that Hindi word is. There is no going back in time to NOT start this process in Assam.

BUT to begin an NPR & NRC process NOW in 2019 – not even just in the border states by making sweeping allegations against non-BJP CMs enabling mass migration, and to pointlessly, shamelessly, tyrannically proposing to extend it to the WHOLE F****** COUNTRY, making CAA as a protective net for EVERYONE EXCEPT MUSLIMS – if that doesn’t make the intention clear and only him declaring ALL MUSLIMS will make it obvious, you do please wait, I am betting my money he wouldn’t disappoint you.

I am not sure why you pointedly asked me about ALL MUSLIMS – that wasn’t even the point I was making. I was only pointing out CAA and NRC are pretty much linked. A nation-wide NRC would make people across religions suffer and set them in panic and CAA will save some people based on a complex Country-Religion matrix.

But this is BJP, this is Amit Shah, so I can read between the lines, I can hear the dogwhistles, I can read the coded message and i am certain what the outcome will be. Whether you read between the lines, what you comprehend is, of course, your business.

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ItsVerySimple

December 21, 2019

@nikkie1602,

Thank you for the rebuttal to the video. More power to you!

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Carin

December 21, 2019

We are the people of India and India is our country every citizen of India has right to live we should not people of our country into caste system we should support each other for best development of our India

NRC and CAB should not be accepted
We are one please don’t divide

I am the citizen of India who will not support this bill please be in unity will help our India to be one where all caste people are living together and this is only one country where everyone are living so please be careful and hope this will never happen again

Thank you

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ItsVerySimple

December 21, 2019

@Isai

So, I looked at the NRC conducted in Assam and found that around 19 lakhs were excluded out of 3.29 crores people who had applied = 5.77%.
This 5.77% would include both illegal immigrants (true positives) and type 2 errors. If 5% were caused by type 2 errors, then only 0.77% were actual illegal immigrants. This seems nowhere close to ground reality. Then I realized what is wrong in the author’s methodology. The NRC process had an interim draft, final draft and the final NRC list. (ie) there were 3 iterations/stages. After the interim draft, only those who were excluded would have appealed to get included in the final draft. This would have again repeated before the final list. Now, in order for a person to get erroneously excluded from the final list, he/she must have been erroneously excluded in each of these 3 iterations/stages. So, using the same error rate of 5%, the probability of a genuine citizen being excluded is 5%5%5%= 0.0125%, yes percent. Even at this stage, there is a foreigner tribunal and of course courts where you can appeal. This will cost and inconvenience people. So, I am not inclined to use these numbers. But, it would suffice to say that statistically speaking, the probability of a genuine citizen getting excluded after the entire process is very low and nowhere close to the world war like figure suggested by the article

Wow, sorry, I just saw this. Hahaha, damn, i didn’t know you were this person. I regret wasting my time trying to explain my stand to you earlier. Anyway, last comment to you and am out.

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Madan

December 21, 2019

” what bugs most Hindus is that Muslims generally vote in masse and Imans in mosques openly run propaganda for parties.” – This isn’t really true. 8% of Muslim votes went to BJP in 2014 as well as 2019. Roughly similar numbers in 99 and 04 as well. Generally around a third of votes for Congress in the last few general elections. Rest taken by regional parties. En bloc voting is a myth and to the extent that some preferences emerge from their voting patterns, there are similar preferences in the voting of Hindu voters as well but these are caste driven. Is it the problem of Muslims that Hindus are still divided by caste after all these years? I guess not.

I will further add that only 80 of 543 Lok Sabha constituencies have 20% or more Muslim population. That is, these are the only seats where their vote would matter at all. In 2019, BJP still won 36 of these seats.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-insight/story/lok-sabha-election-muslim-votebank-bjp-congress-1535453-2019-05-27

The Muslim vote factor is grossly overplayed both by those who court it (Cong/SP/BSP) and those who fear it or play on these fears to get votes (BJP). Muslims do not decide elections. Caste does, albeit to a lesser extent than before (and lesser only because of the emphasis of Hindutva). What does it say about Hindus then that they do not vote as one unless confronted with a real or imagined enemy dangled in front of them by politicians?

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ItsVerySimple

December 21, 2019

@Isai

(Damn, my previous comment disappeared, guess I goofed up while submitting (And hence my next comment to you sounds funny with “regret engaging with you previously..”)

Reposting it.)

If you have seen any video which clearly shows that Amit Shah means ALL MUSLIMS and not just BANGLADESHI MUSLIMS, please do share.

Umm, sure. A video of India’s Home Minister declaring ALL MUSLIMS will be thrown out… With other Home Ministers, I could be sure there will be never such video but with Amit Shah you never know. Dude is the real deal.

I am not sure why you picked on those video to ask me about ALL MUSLIMS – anyway, NRC will bite everyone’s ass – CAA could come in as protective net at that point with it’s complex Country-Religion matrix but that net excludes Muslims.

However tragic, awful and inhumane the NRC exercise in Assam has been at this point – Assam had a reason – whether it was good or bad, legit or not – to go for it. It started decades back and has entered the final stages now. There is no going back in time to stop Assam NRC or think of some other way.

BUT, but. To introduce NRC NOW in 2020 – in border states, in states where BJP is eyeing for political capital – making sweeping accusations against the CMs engaging in mass migration – and proposing to extend it, pointlessly, tyrannically to the ENTIRE FUCKING COUNTRY, claiming CAA will save everyone when it specifically excludes Muslims on whatever country-religion logic – I am NOT looking for him to openly say ALL MUSLIMS in any video. I can read between the lines, I can read the coded words, i can hear the dog whistle the Prime Minister blows, i can see the design. What you comprehend, of course, is your choice. You do please wait for the video.

(Well, I wrote and posted this and then read your little cold statistical analysis about how the 19 lakh people excluded aren’t probably genuine citizens. I have nothing more to add.)

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Madan

December 22, 2019

“i can hear the dog whistle the Prime Minister blows” – Isn’t even a dog whistle anymore when the PM says one can recognise those who oppose CAA by the colour of their clothes. This is just blatant, no holds barred bigotry. I hear all the RW commenters nitpicking and coming up with complaints about what the liberals or Muslims say, but not a word about the PM making such an openly communal statement. Really, does this statement show even an iota of respect on the part of Modi for the office he holds? Even those who support CAA should now stop making allowances and justifications on behalf of Modi. He isn’t even trying to hint at it, this is the equivalent of Trump’s “go back to your country” statement directed at elected Congresswomen, all but one of whom were born in America. I don’t care what you have to say but if you defend this, you are a bigot as clear as night follows day.

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Badri

December 22, 2019

IN Tamil Nadu there are two types of brahmins. One group has found a natural home in hindutva after decades of being mocked at and ridiculed by Dravidian movement and its offshoots.The other is the liberal, left leaning , upper class like N.Ram, TMK, Kamal, Ram Guha etc. Both these groups have their own perspectives on various issues and both are equally guilty of selective quoting of history. Truth as in most cases lies somewhere in the middle.

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nikkie1602

December 22, 2019

The pro-CAA rallies that took place have blatantly called for violence. The slogans heard were ‘Desh ke gaddaron ko, goli maaro saalon ko”. Where are the tear gas and water cannons and the preemtive detaining?

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ItsVerySimple

December 22, 2019

@Madan

“i can hear the dog whistle the Prime Minister blows” – Isn’t even a dog whistle anymore when the PM says one can recognise those who oppose CAA by the colour of their clothes.

Agreed. We seem to have gone long past the dogwhistle stage. And, thank you for patiently engaging with folks here. More power to you. It’s going to be a long fight.

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Madan

December 22, 2019

So now Modi has claimed there is no talk of NRC and they only did NRC in Assam under SC order.

He accuses people of misleading the public on NRC. Wonder if he is talking about the gentleman in below clip:

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Srinivas R

December 23, 2019

@ItsVerySimple – brilliant comment, encapsulates everything I fear about CAA-NRC. I went ahead and took a screen shot and posted on Twitter. It has part of your comment and I have mentioned it as uncredited source. Only after posting it I realized that I should check with you. If you are not comfortable, I will delete in Twitter.

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Rahul

December 23, 2019

Here is the video – for someone whose head is not in the sand.

https://twitter.com/DilliDurAst/status/1207263602148724736

So here is the game –

CAA will come before NRC. ( As per vomit bhai shah)

All non Muslims will be given citizenship under CAA – (Again as per vomit bhai shah – see link above. )

All Muslims will have to prove citizenship under NRC. (implied from the 2 points above)

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ItsVerySimple

December 23, 2019

@Srinivas R,

That’s absolutely fine, no problem. And, thank you!

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Isai

December 23, 2019

“Wow, sorry, I just saw this. Hahaha, damn, i didn’t know you were THIS person.”

Since some people seem to be perceiving the comments of a person based on the kind of person they think he/she is, I will share some of my experiences that I think have shaped me as a person. It is not directed at anyone and doesn’t have anything specific to this particular thread.

When I was 12, I was teased by other students and chastised by my teacher because my school bag was torn and discolored. My father, who couldn’t afford to immediately get me a new bag, told me that when he was in school, he used to be thrown out of the chemistry lab because he didn’t have the uniform pant. At my my age, he often used to sleep in public places at night since the relative’s house where he was put up, didn’t have enough space. So, he said, BAG is not a big deal.

Another time, when I had to pay today’s equivalent of Rs. 300 to my school, my parents sent me to a relative to borrow it. She asked me when my mother planned to return it. I said, next month, after salary day. I still remember the look on her face. She was thinking if she will be able to manage till the end of the month without it.

When I was 16, I was in an alien city and lost almost all the money that I was carrying. I lived 52 hours eating only 300gms of biscuits like Parle G. That’s when I realized the true meaning of the saying ‘Pasi vandhal pathum parandhu pogum’ (Hunger makes you give up many things, including your self respect). After that, my attitude towards the poor changed a lot.

So, at 17, I thought I knew all about financial hardship, until my college roommate told me that he had to skip a year in school because his agricultural family lost everything in a flood and so he had to skip school and go to work..for a YEAR.

In my childhood, among all my neighbours in my parents age group, 2 men had always been very kind to me. Their face used to light up whenever they saw me. I think it is because they both had daughters but no son. 1 of them is a Muslim.

In the first 20+ years of my educational life, out of the top 15 odd teachers who had been very fond of me, some who had perhaps even been biased TOWARDS me, the majority were non-hindus, mostly Christians but the top 2 were Muslims. Again, a majority of my closest friends at various points of time in those years have been Christians and Muslims. I grew up reading psalms and praying to Mary Matha along with my Christian friends. I have stayed in a Muslim majority locality for many years and have never had a problem. I used to listen to the early morning azan during my exams so that I stop feeling sleepy.

In fact, the only Muslim or Christian I remember even having an argument with, is in this blog.

I always like to stay unbiased, live as per the Kural that talks about giving equal regards to friends, enemies and strangers. But, I think these experiences have left me with a soft corner towards Muslims and Christians, just like some bitter childhood experiences have left me feeling cynical towards women.

As a teenager, I often used to be teased/bullied due to my mother tongue. I once fought with a roommate in a triple room, who told me that “We have given you so much space”, I remember thinking who are YOU to give ME. Doesn’t this place belong to me AS MUCH as it belongs to you?

Once, my Auto was stopped and I had to walk because of a Muharram procession. I was already tired and hence got pissed off. That’s when I thought how a Muslim or a Christian must be feeling about blocking of roads during hindu festivals, bursting crackers during Diwali etc. After all, in that city, there were far more inconveniences to them due to hindus than vice versa.

Another time, every shop in that city was shut due to a Hindu festival and I walked 3-4 kms just for getting a biscuit packet. Finally, I saw an open shop, run by a muslim. That’s when I thought that not everyone has to be the same. Having a minority can also be beneficial to the majority.

Years later, in abroad, I used to hear from other Asians about how Asians had to work doubly hard to prove themselves as equal to Whites. I used to feel the most insecure that I have ever felt and for a few days I thought people don’t sit next to me in the bus because of my ethnicity (I was the only South Asian). That city had a street full of South Asian restaurants and I often used to flock there. I used to constantly feel isolated and it used to give me great joy to see someone like me…even a Pakistani.

Because of these experiences, I feel that a state should be kinder towards its minorities.

I hope these comments have conveyed my feelings towards the poor and the minorities with sufficient warmth. Because my next comment is a cold analysis of the current situation which concludes that one has to be quite stupid/frustrated to believe in the ‘explanation’ shared by BR.

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Madan

December 23, 2019

Without referring to specific posts, I am just going to post this here for all those who keep denying that there is any link between CAA and NRC.

Listen from 3:12 up to 5:45. On two different occasions, he clarifies that NRC will follow CAA and also explains why that has to be the chronology (his word, not mine).

The confusion is entirely created by the govt by parceling out information and spreading innuendo. Please stop blaming protesters for it. This was a trial balloon floated by the govt to see how far they could take this and for now they seem to have realised that they have to step back and fight another day. Which they will. They’re just buying time, waiting for the protests to die down while they dream up new arguments in favour of NRC (just as they kept inventing new arguments everyday as to why demo was required, once it became clear it would not achieve the original objectives stated in the PM’s speech).

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Honest Raj

December 23, 2019

My father, who couldn’t afford to immediately get me a new bag, told me that when he was in school, he used to be thrown out of the chemistry lab because he didn’t have the uniform pant.

Genuine question – are you sure he meant school (and not college)?

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Isai

December 23, 2019

Genuine question – are you sure he meant school (and not college)?

If I remember correctly, it was PUC (Pre-Uni versity course). In some places I suppose it is called Junior college. But in Chennai, we call it school till Undergraduation.

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Nathan

December 23, 2019

Since some people seem to be perceiving the comments of a person based on the kind of person they think he/she is, I will share some of my experiences that I think have shaped me as a person.

I hope these comments have conveyed my feelings towards the poor and the minorities with sufficient warmth

Ye shall not judge me for you know not that I am warm

cold analysis of the current situation which concludes that one has to be quite stupid/frustrated

But ye I shall judge for I am cold and I see that you are stupid

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Isai

December 23, 2019

Let us assume that Amit Shah is EVIL. Let us also assume that he is also able to do everything as mentioned in the ‘explanation’ shared by BR and has successfully excluded Muslims from Citizenship. Then what?

Deportation? The population of Indian Muslims is around 20 CRORES. Do you think any country in the world will accept 20 CRORE refugees?

Even if they want, CAN they? Saudi Arabia, the big brother of Muslims refused to accept ANY unrelated refugee of the Syrian Civil War. Not even all Muslim countries TOGETHER, CAN afford to accept so many more refugees.

If not deportation, what else?

Detention Camps? The population of all Jail inmates currently in India is less than 5 LAKH. Which means, Shah has to build 400 TIMES the current TOTAL capacity of ALL Jails in India. Do you think this is possible? Even if it is, don’t you realise that it will take at least a decade?

Till that time, do you think Muslims will be waiting with folded hands? The number of Jews in Germany before holocaust was around 5 LAKHS, which was less than 1 PERCENT of German population. Even Idi Amin, the butcher of Uganda, killed less than 4 lakh people which was again less than 1 percent of the Ugandan population. But, there are 20 CRORE Indian Muslims, around 14% of Indian population. 1 out of 7 Indians is a Muslim. Do you understand what will happen when they realise that they will all be killed/jailed? Riots will happen everywhere, leading to death of CRORES of people, both hindus and muslims. This will be 10-100 times worser than Partition. Not only this, Pakistani Muslims will impel their country to save Indian Muslims and their government will be forced to attack India, leading to a Nuclear War. All world powers including America and members of Ummah will be forced to intervene. Do you really think Modi, Shah and EVERYBODY in the government are SO demented not to realise this? If they really are, why have they now lost the Jharkhand Election? A government which believes it is powerful enough to exclude 20 crore people from citizenship is also powerless enough to not manipulate an election result? Especially at a time, when all opposition state governments, who control local police and administrative machinery, have declared that they won’t implement NRC?

Do you know it is the tendency of Fascists to keep shifting focus and call their enemies as “at the same time too strong and too weak”.

Now tell me who is being delusional? Shah or You? Who is showing signs of a Fascist? Shah or You?

Even if they are so demented, why do they have to make EVERYONE go through the cumbersome NRC process to identify Muslims? Unlike Christians, most Muslims can be easily identified by their names itself. In case the government is so delusional and wants to isolate Muslims and treat them as second class citizens, all it has to do is amend the citizenship act and replace the words ‘every person’ with ‘every person who is not a muslim’ and then ask for a declaration of faith in which people have to state their religion and sign affidavits which it can cross verify with Aadhaar. In fact, Pakistan does something like this to identify its Ahmadiyas. Why forsake this simple process and go through a bureaucratic nightmare of verifying 60 year old documents? India will become the laughing stock of the world if it conducts a NRC process that results in say 90% of its population getting declared as non-citizens (I assumed that the remaining 10% will be able to produce those 60 year old documents).

Can’t you see how ridiculous your proposition is?

If you have a decent understanding of Mathematics, History and Politics and/or some common sense, you will realise that neither Amit Shah nor any SHAH, CAN do what is being alleged in the explanation shared by BR. If you are still convinced that this is what they can/intend to do, I request that you also start reading about the early warning signs of schizophrenia/persecution delusion.

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Rahul

December 24, 2019

Isai is a very neutral, cold and calculative analyst and he is also so right that it hurts. Instead of protesting now, lets all wait till detention centers are built and then start killing each other. It sounds more fun.

Here are some reports by the way.
https://scroll.in/latest/936556/navi-mumbai-to-have-maharashtras-first-detention-centre-for-illegal-immigrants-report

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theeversriram

December 24, 2019

@Isai ignore the illogical comments that come in your way. People have made up their minds on this issue and nobody is going to change, whatever details you provide.

Bottom line is the act is passed in parliament and till it is amended/repealed, it remains in force. Modi/Shah who have dared to pass this Act (and also other changes that none of the previous governments had a fall to do) would surely have anticipated these protests from the usual suspects.

Many common people have started to understand how big the illegal immigrant problem is and how much crap is done under the guise of secularism. The silent sane majority is watching and will remember this when casting the votes.

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Isai

December 24, 2019

Rahul, if one is earning say 1 Lakh per month now and says that come April, he will get an increment and start earning upto 1.3 lakh per month, I will believe him. I am even ready to consider if he says that he will get such a high increment that he will start earning 2-3 lakh per month even though I will be a bit sceptical. But if he says that come April, he will get an increment and start earning 1 crore per month in the same job, I am sorry but I won’t believe that. If he then shows his previous year increment letter that had given him a 15 thousand increment and says that I refuse to believe him only because I am jealous of him, I won’t react but will think that his previous year increment letter is only MORE proof that what he says is improbable.

Similarly India has been detaining alleged Bangladeshi immigrants even before CAB/NRC. https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/uncertain-future-bangladeshi-immigrants-taken-bengaluru-kolkata-113172

Now, if you tell me that some poor Indian BENGALIS may also get mistakenly caught in this because they don’t have documents, I will consider it. But, the jump from Bangladeshi/Bengali Muslims to ALL MUSLIMS is, like the salary jump that I mentioned above, too improbable to believe, IMO.

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Heisenberg

December 24, 2019

Can’t you see how ridiculous your proposition is?

@Isai – We all do see how ridiculous the proposition is, even if we assume the government genuinely wants to do this exercise only to get rid of illegal immigrant and not persecute muslims. Even with genuine intention this is the equivalent of burning down the whole house to get rid of 1 cockroach or declare 86% of currency invalid to get rid of fake currency.

Now let’s get to their intention part. BJP and its ideological parent has always stood for Hindu Rashtra and getting rid of muslims. As much as BJP is criticized by centrists/liberals/left, it is also criticized by far right for not being right enough. As for Modi+Amit Shah with all their proven track record of muslim hate, they probably know well that they just can’t get rid of 20 crore people just like that. But they do know what has won them votes and brought them there.

Religious bigotry was sugar coated with development and anti-corruption in 2013-14. 6 years later only the stand has reversed. Now this development agenda is coated with terrorism, infiltration (read muslims), national security – which are the things holding India from development.

This is the equivalent of feeding kids by saying “Poochandi vara poran.. Seekram sapidu” Sadly it works to some extent because extreme right believes in Poochandi and the rest have become afraid of Poochandis. People who are standing up now are just calling out their bluff saying there’s no poochandi and you better cook properly if you want me to eat. Sadly the duo can’t tell sugar from salt and got hired as master-chef in a Michelin starred restaurant.

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nikkie1602

December 24, 2019

@Isai: Okay that is some sweeping statement that we all either stupid or frustrated. And no, we arent that dumb to think that all of the Muslim population of India is going to be affected. But a lot of them are if this exercise continues. Even 1 percent of your quoted figure comes upto 13 lakh muslims. That isn’t a small number. And this isnt only about detention centres/deportation. This is about a clear message to a sizeable Indian population that they are essentially second class citizens, that yet again their Indianness will always be in question. And if Modi/Shah were EVIL/demented enough to put the entire population through something as monumentally dumb as Demonetization, then they can do anything.

And you are discounting the possibility that maybe Modi/Shah did not anticipate this scale of protest. Maybe they thought this would be lapped up as well.

Do you know what is happening in Muzaffarnagar?
And you do know that states like Karnataka and Maharashtra have been asked to make these detention centers?

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nikkie1602

December 24, 2019

*20 lakhs

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lapogadnan

December 24, 2019

@isai: the number of Jews killed in the holocaust was close to 6 MILLION.. not 5 lakhs.. it was almost TWO-THIRDS of the total Jewish population in Europe.. and as to your fancy ass reasoning for why bother going through all this when they can simply announce that India will be a Hindu rashtra without bothering to look innocent, LOL! For this round about way only there are protests, what will happen if they do that announcement? Luckily India is not a fascist country YET.. there’s no point protesting once it has become one, no?

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Rahul

December 24, 2019

Isai, I beg your pardon but your arguments keep getting more and more ridiculous . If there is a law that disenfranchises me on the basis of my religion, would I indulge in game theory and calculate the probability of me getting victimized, or get out on the streets to protest?

Suppose they tag me as an illegal immigrant because I do not have any papers, will I be able to tell them that I had a discussion with a blogger called Isai on wordpress and he told me that govt does not have capacity to target all Muslims, and should I also tell them that hey, probability of me getting targeted is only 0.0001 % so go talk to the blogger Isai on wordpress and leave me alone?

The point is that any Muslim will be vulnerable and so will any poor person. People are protesting as a matter of principle. That you cannot fathom this is making me wonder if you are a serious interactor or just kidding.

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Honest Raj

December 24, 2019

Let us assume that Amit Shah is EVIL. Let us also assume that he is also able to do everything as mentioned in the ‘explanation’ shared by BR and has successfully excluded Muslims from Citizenship. Then what?

Modi and Shah started out as grassroots-level workers of the organisation which has its roots in the anti-Muslim ideology. Have a word with any RSS ideologue (irrespective of their socio-economic status) about Muslims, you would be lectured about the necessity to monitor the growth rate of Muslims (or how important it’s for the Hindus to not buy from shops runs by Muslims and Christians).

The duo of Modi and Shah is perfectly aware that such a scenario (deportation of Indian Muslims) is virtually impossible. Their core idea is to marginalise the Muslim population and even deprive them of their voting rights (to the maximum extent possible). In short, they want to make the Muslims feel second-class citizens in our country. This achieves two objectives: (a) Make way for the BJP to strengthen its vote share in the already-polarised BIMARU states (as Heisenberg says). (b) Ensure that the Muslim votes of Congress and other regional parties consolidate towards far-right Muslim parties.

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Isai

December 24, 2019

Nathan & all: Apologies for calling you stupid/frustrated. I thought about this for a day and was not able to see any flaw in my reasoning even though I WANTED to. That’s why I thought let me provoke the reader a bit so that they feel compelled to find a flaw in my argument and post it.

lapodganan: I feel we are comparing apples and oranges. I used the number of Jews in Germany before holocaust to explain that since their percentage of German population was less than 1 percent, the Nazis were able to get them into detention camps without many large scale riots. This won’t be possible in case of Muslims since they are 14%. How many people will eventually get killed once this results in a global civil/nuclear war is a different question altogether.

Heisenberg: I have nothing to disagree with what you have said. I have always wanted elections to be decided based on facts and reasoning, just like all other decisions.

Let me tell you an incident that has caused me to participate in this thread. When the election results were announced in May 2014, one of my colleagues, in her 20s, was visibly upset and close to tears. She is the richest person that I personally know and her family should be worth several hundreds if not a thousand crore. They had enough influence to get a prestigious government college seat through a special quota. She is a Muslim. I still remember that when consoled by someone, she said “See, they are asking us to go to Pakistan”.

If someone like her can feel so insecure, I shudder to think how an ordinary Muslim, from Mannadi to Keelakari must be feeling. In such a situation, it is crucial that one doesn’t exaggerate any fact. Indian Muslims getting deported or sent to detention camps can be a source of great indignation to non-Muslims. But for Muslims like her, it will first cause TRAUMA. So, it is important that we don’t cause people like her to feel even more insecure, even unintentionally. Do protest saying that sending back Bangladeshi Muslims is inhuman, inefficient, unnecessarily biased etc. But, for heaven’s sake please be 100% sure before coming out and saying that Indian Muslims will also be dealt the same way.

Do you understand what has been the consequences of saying this?

I don’t think all the Muslims who have got killed while protesting, were protesting for Bangladeshi Muslims. Many would have been made to believe that they will suffer the same fate. And, now they have lost their LIVES.

To the poor hindus, every protester who is protesting and wearing the skull cap will look either like an illegal immigrant or it will look like the muslims here want to bring ‘his folks’ from Pakistan and Bangladesh and then treat them like second class citizens. And, every time one exaggeratedly says something like Indian Muslims are included in this bill, he will only lose credibility in the eyes of the poor Hindu who is in majority. In fact, I feel these protests have given more political capital to BJP and have done far more harm to the cause of Indian Muslims than the NRC/CAA bill itself.

While it is good to have empathy, I think it is more important to have clarity on the underlying issue. Based on my interactions with the poor, I think many in the middle/upper classes are not having this. I will try to post that in my next comment.

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nikkie1602

December 24, 2019

@isai: The NPR is now undereay. That is the first step in NRC.
https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/the-three-step-communal-game-plan/article30374423.ece

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samir sardana

December 24, 2019

Y Muslims need to see CAB,UCC and NRC Together – like the Christian Trinity (which is Haram in Islam)

A lot of the Hindooo Dindoo Bania/Brahmin TV media try to delink the CAB and NRC,and try to make Muslims believe that CAB is not Anti-Muslim and NRC is far off..dindooohindoo

This is again a strategem of the Fat Pancho Amit Shah and Dishwasher Chaiwala Modi diwmit duopoly.

Phase 1

In Phase 1 – the Bania/Brahmin company did cow lynching,love jehad lynchings,rama temple lynchings – to place the Muslims in the siege mentality syndrome.This is the Israeli Model – who first rape and kill the Palestinians – who look to the UN and the USA/EU – who do not do a thing.This starts the siege mentality when the legal system turns its back on the race,and the said race becomes a pawn in the hands of nations,and international organisations.

Phase 2

In Phase 2 – after making the Muslims physically insecure and helpless,the Bania/Brahmin company, deliver legal blows like the triple talaq bill,rama temple etc.This is also the Israeli Model – wherein the Jews have conned the USA to shift the embassy to Jerusalem,and reckon it as the capital of Israel.

Phase 3

In Phase 3 – which has now commenced you have the trinity of CAB/Uniform Civil Code(UCC) and NRC

The target of the NRC and the UCC are the Muslims,per se.In CAB,it is an assymetric target – by specifying 3 Islamic nations – and their Hindooo,”so called oppressed minority”.

The expectation is that Muslims become innured and oblivious of this destruction – just like the Dalits did for 5000 years.

Phase 4

In Phase 4 – like the Israelis split the Fatah/PLO etc., the Bania/Brahmin scum will give an OPTION to the minority sects of Muslims,to state in their identity documents their sects.This is the phase of casteing and classing the Muslims – who will ultimately declare,that they are “Hindoo Muslims”

Minority sects of the Shia,Bohris,Ahmadiyas etc are declared as Non-Muslims in several Islamic nations.West Asian History also records that the Mongol invasions were assisted by these sects.Hence,these sects will in all
probability toe the line of the Brahmin/Bania vermin – and start offering ritualistic tribute to Rama and the mad team of ape gods

Phase 5

In Phase 5 will come the quarantining and class-ing of Indian Muslims and Dalits in special zones and geographies with separate tranist id cards and restrictions on voting and mobility.

Class is a natural corollary of the caste sanction in the Gita.The aim is to 1st use class to split the Muslim sects and then target the Hindoo castes – namely the Dalits.The Muslims are targetted with the pretext of National Sacurity and the Dalits will be targetted on the grounds of economic security – and then split based on Valmikis etc.

The Problem of the Indian Muslims

What is The Problem of the Indian Muslims ? The Gita is the only scripture which authorises caste discrimination before a man is born,and which lasts beyond the death of the person.

It is only a naturally corollary and evolution that the Brahmin vermin will apply the same maxim to the Indian Muslims through the contorted and contrived convolutions of the NRC – under the garb of National Security – ostensibly to satisfy Article 14 of the Constitution.In reality the Brahmin/Bania vermin does not care for the Constitution – which is the antithesis of the Vedas and the Gita and the Ramayana.

The Hindoos did the same thing to the Sikhs.Nanak did not use the word “Khalsa”.It was the Hindoo who conned the Sikhs,to become a race of mercenaries – and a sort of a mad suicide cult – which started worshipping vulgar and naked Hindoo Gods and Goddesses.The Sikh Gurus,Ranjit Singh,Khalsa Empire and Sikhism,were all destroyed due to the spiritual corruption by the Hindoos.Whoever supported the Hindoos was destroyed – that is the record of history (From the Sakas to the Huns/Mongols and the Mughals) and also recorded by Beruni.

Now it is the turn of the Indian Muslims – it is they who voted for the BJP – just like Solomon who broke the Oral law and specific injunctions by Allah.Now it their turn to face doom.If a follower of Isaac or Ishmael cannot recognise Evil and explicitly supports Iblis or Evil – then it is clear than the man has been forsaken by Allah – and, in the opinion of this author,deserves doom.

An “Indian” Muslim is not a Muslim who follows the Oral Law as re-revealed to the Prophet.To live as an “Indian” Muslim is a spiritual curse – which would definitely,not lead to paradise.

The Hindoos of Pakistan and Afghanistan

Not even 0.1% of the Pakistani and Afghan Hindoos will seek refuge in Hindoosthan.And those that are in Hindoosthan will realise very soon that they have no DNA link with Indians.

They will cohabit and marry with their own and eventually shift to USA/EU – just like the Iraqi Shias in India,who only marry among their own.

The Hindoos of Bangladesh

Bangladesh has Gas.North East India has nothing.In the next 10 years,Indians will become economic refugees in Bangladesh – and many parts of North East India,will voluntarily secede from the Indian Union.In addition,like in Lanka,when a new political entity in Dhaka,kicks out the BJP and the Indian State and the PRC and PLA come in,the entire North East will be supplied from Bangladesh,at 20-35% cheaper items – for all purchases made by the North East Indians.They will be glad to secede from the Indian Union and form a trading block – with the PRC dam-ing the Brahmaputra,and wheeling the power right across India,to Myanmar and Dhaka.

The Future of North East India lies in Myanmar,PRC and Bangladesh – and NOT with Eastern India or Central India

Hindoosthan is doomed.

Solution

The Solution is only the partition of Hindoosthan.Partition leads to evolution of the human race – when there is no 1 race,in a nation.PRC is one race – the Mongol and the Mongoloid.India has a million mongrelised races plagued by 2000 years of incestuous pullulation – and that is a sad historical and scientific fact and truth

The suboptimal and retarded evolution of the Indian Mongrel races,is what is leading to the disaster of Hindoosthan,as it exists today.dindooohindoo

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lapogadnan

December 24, 2019

@isai: maybe these protests are part of the reason why anyone can’t persecute the Muslims then, no? So these protests are essential then..

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Prasad

December 25, 2019

His views are as bold as his movies . Can’t agree more.

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Isai

December 28, 2019

“maybe these protests are part of the reason why anyone can’t persecute the Muslims then, no? So these protests are essential then..”

In my previous comment I didn’t say don’t protest. Triple Talaq is a Muslim issue. Ayodhya is a Hindu-Muslim issue. But, this is a humanitarian issue. I hope and believe that you will react similarly if it is Adivasis or Sri Lankan Tamils in place of Muslims. So, Muslims should not have participated in these protests and it could have been done only by liberals alone.

I sought the opinions of people across different socio-economic backgrounds and what I have understood is that many middle/upper class cosmopolitan individuals are seeing this much differently than the rest. To give an example, Puthiya Thalaimurai is the tamil news channel that currently has the maximum number of subscribers. H Raja participated in its interview program ‘Agni Paritchai’ last week regarding NRC. In the last 3-4 years, whenever Raja has participated in this program, the number of dislikes in Youtube has exceeded the number of likes by 50-100%. But, for the first time, I am seeing that the number of likes is 20% more than the number of dislikes. And he was only his usual bellicose self.

The poor muslims that I spoke to in Chennai are not perturbed and seem more secure than their middle/upper class counterparts. They seem to know their numbers and don’t think of this NRC as anything more than another chore, like Aadhaar. I remembered reading about Khilonjia Muslims in Assam feeling the same way about Assam NRC.
The poor hindus in Chennai that I spoke to, agree with BJP’s stand on this issue, more than on any other issue including Ayodhya, Triple Talaq etc. for they instinctively seem to be against immigration. Also, they don’t think that they or muslims of TN will be affected by this. And they strongly differentiate between TN Muslims and Muslims of Pakistan/Bangladesh.

To those who expressed their worry about poor facing difficulty due to documentation, I wonder if any urban young woman would be okay if we suspend the background check for cab drivers. Even though 98% of rape cases are due to people known to the woman, we still do this since we prioritise the safety of the woman over the inconvenience caused to the poor driver.
If 10000 CAs from Bangladesh immigrate and get approved by the government, the reaction of Indian CAs towards immigrants would be much different. Similarly, the poor hindu seems to be willing to endure this chore if that will result in lesser immigration.

I think this act will survive judicial scrutiny. No, I am not an expert on constitutional law. But, when I saw Amit Shah’s videos talking about “Hindoos, Christiyaans, Seekhs..”, I wondered why Amit Shah has suddenly become fond of ‘Christiyaans’. This CAA is a straightforward question of law and the government would have consulted all its experts to know whether it will survive judicial scrutiny. It seems by using the words ‘persecuted minorities’, it has utilized the LEEWAY given in Article 14 to the government that allows for reasonable classification while avoiding arbitrariness. Thus, including Christians is the COST which Shah is willing to pay to get this law through judiciary. For, he wouldn’t have included them otherwise.

As news like Bulandshahr Muslims paying damages for breaking public property emerges, it will only help BJP in projecting the Muslims as being led by unruly, violent mobs who will try to bully the administration into revoking any fair law that is against their interests. This, along with the issue of perceived rampant illegal immigration, will help BJP in consolidating its vote bank of poor hindus who will feel that only BJP is strong enough to counter these.
The opposition meanwhile is trying to make the educated middle/upper class feel disgusted by the divisive nature of this government and that will help in adding to its vote bank. The educated liberal will feel satisfied in having shown his middle finger to this government. But, it is the Indian Muslim who will continue to live in the state of generalized anxiety.

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Kay

December 28, 2019

Isai, May I ask the sample size of middle/upper class individuals, poor Muslims and poor Hindus from whom you sought opinions?

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Rahul

December 29, 2019

Isai, not in touch with cab driver back ground check, Could you please enlighten what documents are being asked for it? Are they asking to prove the citizenship status of self or parents?

Also was thinking hard about difference in inconvenience between being put in a detention center and not being allowed to drive a cab. Could not think of any. Maybe you can help out ?

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Isai

December 30, 2019

“Isai, May I ask the sample size of middle/upper class individuals, poor Muslims and poor Hindus from whom you sought opinions?”

Kay, I spoke to around 10-15 poor Muslims and Hindus each. I asked 4 poor Muslims and 5 Hindus from different places that I know and each time they were surrounded by others and hence the number 10-15. I have been interacting with many middle/upper class individuals regarding this, including in this blog, so can’t give a precise number except to say that it would be in double digits.

I had earlier thought and commented that poor muslims would be feeling more insecure than the rich muslims but my interactions have made me revise my opinion that in this case, it is the other way round. So, if anyone has first hand knowledge of poor people’s views on this issue, that is quite different from what I had written, I would be keen to know.

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Rasta

December 30, 2019

Now that the government seems to have taken a back step, I guess it is better for the others to step back too.

Despite what they say in their public speeches, the divisive brigade is likely to recalibrate, and relaunch.
This has been their history for the last 100 years, starting the Mahasabha.

Also they are a patient people.

Which in a way is good, for now

The good thing about the recent Hindu protest on a Hindutva stance, even when it was collated with the Muslim and liberal strands is that the protesting Hindus have done justice to their religion and their innate ethos, which in fact is the ethos of this nation.

To understand why I say this is to understand the Hindu psyche itself.

Despite what the pseudo Hindu’s may say, Hinduism in its essence is a continuous rebellion.

You only have to travel through the Hindu religious history to understand that almost all the great saints of Hinduism were in essence rebellious against any kind of faith, their own, and any other. Right from the great Sankaracharyas to the irascible Siddhas, to the modern AC gurus, to numerous other saints, go find a list, you will invariably find in them a rebel.

The literature does abound with a million mutinies, but these mutinies have managed to keep the religion dynamic, fresh, and everlasting.

The Upanishads said that the greatest thing was to know. The gurus therefore sought knowledge, they sought understanding. Also very few of them, and that too only in the period of Hinduism’s decline did any take to faith.

The bhakti movement is actually an excrescence of the Hindu faith, its first open admission of failure.

Even there, the bhakti movement did not stop with slavishness to a God,
It seeks to go further, to achieve communion.
And that makes for one hell of a difference.

Even now, in the heights of the Himalayas and elsewhere,
the only religious methodology is to keep at it

The unrelenting search…
until you break through to clarity and understanding.

The Neti Neti, not this, not this, of the Upanishads is therefore a source of constant comfort to the Hindu
This is the land where reason reached past a hundred mysteries, to find the Gods inside them, and them inside their Gods

How could you not respect, this call to clear reason, and the methods to go beyond

For the true Hindu, religion is a scientific endeavor.

Other religions ask for faith, this asks for understanding. Other religions lay down rules, this suggests best practices

Other religions ask you to bend, this asks you to stand tall
Even as it suggests Karma and Fate,
it tells you that there are mechanisms to overcome it.

This is a religion that draws from the universe itself, it admits to no limitations whatsoever, and holds no permanent isms.

If today’s science gets into trouble with other organized religions but tries to have a dialogue with the Hindu mind, it is because of this lack of ism. If it seeks to understand the Hindu thought it is because the Hindu has ventured further, and into the deepest secrets of the universe.

This is the religion’s greatness,
And why it has managed to remain relevant.
Also all conquering.

Subsuming all the religions that have come into its midst.
Also all the Gods, that have come, are coming, and will come.
All welcome, all honored, all given a place in the pantheon.

If one God claims that he is above all, his ignorance is most likely to be humored than not. For they instinctively understand that any God is a product of spiritual engineering.

And most importantly, they know how to do it. For they have been doing it for years, making Gods, maintaining them, replenishing them, and even inventing them when the need be.

This is the reason for the kumbabhisekhams, the punarprathistas, the daily offerings. They understand the temples as repositories of power, and that this power needs to be treated not only reverently, but also tended carefully.

Therefore a million restrictions, a multitude of practices, all dictated by the need to keep the power alive, and beneficial to the community.
Which arise not from ego, but from intimate understanding.

In all the Hindu mind has always sought a religion not to dictate their life, but one they could engage with, creatively, and completely.

This also means that throughout most of its history, Hindus have rarely listened to any religious potentate, and at least for any long period of time. To ask them to believe, to prostrate themselves before a common god, and a common culture is a real waste of time.

To the common man, therefore has risen this understanding,
An understanding that reflects in their daily practice.

Keep the flame, but change the oil,
As required, and as relevant.

Therefore, if you look at a 1000 Hindu homes today, you find that there are at least 100 distinct streams of religion, all of them Hindu. That is only practice, and not to be confused for the religion itself. They all know instinctively that the religion is greater than the practice.

This then is the dilemma of the Indian right, the ones that seek cultural hegemony.

The religious right find that there is nothing that will give them a handhold, a grip that allows them to be constantly right. Unlike other religions, there is no textual support for it. There are no Gurus who will band together, who will lend them complete legitimacy.

Neither is there an ulema, or consistent support from the ulema. The closest to a religious interpreter, the Brahmin, is considered only an executive or administrator, not even a trustworthy interpreter of the texts. In fact there are very few texts that concentrate completely on the temporal, and that which can be referred to. Also there is no cultural uniformity, no common coconut to break their heads over.

The religious right do not understand this.
It has therefore been a journey of continuous frustration.
It has been a period of waiting.
And this recent interregnum indicates
that the waiting is likely to continue.

They should understand
That the very idea of a monotheistic religion
Confined to a narrow band is completely antagonistic.
Not only to the Hindu psyche,
But to the Hindu way of life.

Even if they let go of Hindu religion
And hold on to Hindu culture,
They will soon find it
Slipping from their grasp.

Even the Buddhists succumbed
As in Lanka and elsewhere
But the Hindu will not
His heart is just not in it.

The sooner the religious right understands this, and seeks to engage with it, the better. Or they will find
all their efforts to be in vain.

For the Hindu will finally go back to his roots,
And in doing so, pull their rug from under them.

The Hindu has a innate pride and rebellion

That finds the limitations of Hindutva

Not only a nuisance, but patently inaccurate.

The Hindu instinctively knows
That this nation will prevail
Not because of Hindutva,
But inspite of it.

This, then, is the Hindu psyche!

And this is what keeps everyone alive.

So what does the Hindu demand of the other religions?

To just be, and not to disturb.

If your claim is that your God is greater, so be it, you will come to know

If you claim your practices are better, so be it, you will come to know

If you claim that your heritage is better, so be it, you will come to know.

This is not to be understood as a passive reaction, it is just like that of a indulgent parent.

They know that this is a religion that has subsumed a hundred isms, and can contain a multitude more.

They know this is a religion that can keep in step with the times, and yet offer daily solace and guidance.

It is out of this knowledge that the famous Hindu tolerance arises out of.
It is not from want of strength, it is from an understanding of other’s limitations.

This, then, is the Hindu psyche!

There is no crusting here,
Forever alive, forever seeking,
It is a flame that’s worth its keeping.

If you are a Hindu
Seek to understand
That your religion is no mundane matter
To be left to demagogues
It is not of this earthly domain
It belongs to the Cosmos.

It is the flight of the spirit
It is the high tide of reason

The intellect the world looked up to
Once the world’s richest,
And yet one that enriched the world.

If you are not Hindu
then seek to understand

That this land is holy
Not because
Of some dead bundle of spirit,
Or some formed or formless God

That this land is holy
Because it is perennially alive.

Once you understand this,
No one needs to tell you
what you have to do
to keep the flame alive

Not only here
In this land
But in your hearts
And in your minds
And in your children

And thus arrive
at that sublime destination
where it is understood
that mankind is one.

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Rahini David

December 30, 2019

Isai:
If 10000 CAs from Bangladesh immigrate and get approved by the government, the reaction of Indian CAs towards immigrants would be much different.

Are we talking about Chartered Accountants here? For I am kind of getting lost here.

The whole Amit Shah and Christiyaans part of the comments flew over my head too.

And are Indian Muslims continuing to live in “generalised anxiety” or do they just “see NRC as another chore like Aadhar”? Or is it just the upper class muslims who have to live in this “generalised anxiety”?

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Sanjay

December 30, 2019

LOL ! All this talk about background check, documentations, approval, immigration !!

As I wrote earlier in the Indian context all this is a bunch of baloney, simply yankee talk in terms of implementation and far from any ground reality. India is a struggling poor country and cannot afford even 1% of the cost of this bill. Majority is still struggling for bare necessities of livelihood and this is simply an exercise in creating confusion, distress – most importantly division and distrust among their own population. There is no vision here and it became imperative to bring this hurriedly for the current nonsensical government after the Ayodhya issue was considered dead. And to be frank what has scrapping Article 370, Triple Talak etc brought for the country. In practical terms all these issue remain same if not worse and Indians feel worse than ever before on a day to day life.The country is in 2020 and even basics like crime and women safety issue are not even addressed seriously. Police remains more corrupt than ever and continues to act like gangster and are the least trustworthy component of our society there is no respect for the law they are supposed to administer themselves . So yes India’s deterioration continues albeit now at a much faster pace. I doubt any citizen could trust their government to do what is best for them. In India our politicians are bought and sold at an auction we call elections where the prettiest candidate the corporations to foreign spy agencies pick for us is put up for our vote. And we think we made a choice.

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vijay

December 30, 2019

So, whats the conclusion. Is BR a good reviewer or not?

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Isai

December 30, 2019

“Are they asking to prove the citizenship status of self or parents?..being put in a detention center..”

Rahul, I don’t want ANYONE to be sent to detention centers. I have said earlier in this thread that I am quite sympathetic to immigration. So, at least for this discussion, request you to assume that I am a compassionate human being who is sympathetic to immigration. I’ll try to express my concern that other outcomes seem much worser than NRC’s. I request you to let me know in case my concern is unfounded.

My point about cab drivers, CAs is that it is far more difficult to take decisions only based on compassion when taking that decision would adversely impact one’s safety or livelihood.

First, let’s remove the fear. Nobody has been asked to prove their parents citizenship, yet. Irrespective of what documents they ask, the government can set up detention centres at most for thousands of people whereas even the most conservative estimates of Muslim illegal immigrants itself comes to several lakhs. Now, when it can only hold at most 1 out of 10 illegal immigrants, why would the government detain an Indian Muslim, say a Tamil speaking Muslim, unless it is keen to shoot itself in the foot and cause large scale protests/riots?

By contrast, 68 per cent of prisoners in India are those who have not been convicted by any court for a crime. Please browse this report: https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/undertrial-prisoners-indian-jails-ncrb-report-prison-statistics-supreme-court-1618588-2019-11-15
Now, if the government wants to harass and jail the poor Indian Muslim, you can see that it already has both the power and an easy mechanism and doesn’t need an NRC to do that.

Despite the above statistics, we are not saying that police must not arrest anyone because we need to balance the concern of an innocent languishing in jail with the need for an effective deterrent to reduce future crimes. I suppose some people think illegal immigration is neither a crime nor a big social problem. That is why they see the government’s action as unnecessary.

But I think the problem in border states is that when a large number of poor people immigrate, it puts them in direct conflict with the local poor due to scarcity of resources/opportunities. For example, Pallavaram Sandhai, near the Chennai Airport, is a 100 year old Fridays only market that now attracts small traders who sell vegetables etc. It is just a 2km open road that ends in a flyover and hence can’t be easily expanded. It will attract customers only in a X km radius, since beyond a point the traveling cost would become greater than the savings. So, these vegetable sellers don’t have any skills or an unique product and also have a limited customer base. With this, they have to make ends meet. Earlier, there was space for new traders. But now, due to scarcity and intense competition, they have to come 1 day before on Thursday, just to reserve their space. In this situation, if 20% more sellers, say of a different tribe, come and jostle for space, this will significantly reduce the already meagre income of the existing sellers. When this happens and their bare 3 meals gets reduced to 2, they will start resenting the new tribe of sellers and as more sellers of this new tribe arrive, their resentment will keep building up like a pressure cooker. Then, even a small spark of hatred towards the new tribe will ignite this huge fuel of resentment leading to a massacre.

This is what seems to have happened in most pogrom type riots like 1969 Gujarat Riots, Bongal Kheda in Assam etc. Nobody gets ‘sick’ enough to participate in a massacre unless they feel a strong threat to their life or livelihood. Thus, while the external manifestation may be a caste, religious or ethnic violence, the underlying cause is mainly economic and then political. I think that is why the Supreme Court asked for the NRC update in Assam, to avoid more such pressure cooker explosion type situations. And, now the pressure also seems to be building up in Bengal. I think that is why the UPA GOVERNMENT tried to do a NPR-NCIR process similar to the current one, way back in 2010. https://m.timesofindia.com/india/therell-be-social-vetting-of-npr-entries-upa-2-minister-told-ls/articleshow/73013059.cms

Thus, by conducting a nationwide NPR-NCR exercise, the government is trying to both deter new immigration from Bangladesh and also dissuade existing immigrants from moving to other cities/states of India to avoid detection.Even when it is not very efficient, the exercise is still expected to be an effective deterrent.

I see this as an ethical dilemma like the trolley problem. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem
When I ignore who is taking this CAA-NRC decision, why they are taking it and dispassionately focus only on what is being done by them vs what needs to be done, my belief in utilitarianism tells me that in the longer run, not taking this decision could lead to much worser outcomes.. like the Nellie Massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nellie_massacre

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Isai

December 30, 2019

Rahini:
“Are we talking about Chartered Accountants here?” Yes.

“The whole Amit Shah and Christiyaans part of the comments flew over my head too.”
Amit Shah may have preferred to exclude immigrant christians too along with immigrant muslims. But, Article 14 doesn’t allow the government to arbitrarily choose groups of people and give/deny them citizenship. Whereas, persecuted minorities is considered to be a reasonable classification. (Similar to: One cannot reserve some city bus seats for Rahini and deny them to Isai but one can reserve for women which will ensure the same. But, a consequence is that other women, even whom One doesn’t like, will also be able to use those reserved seats).

“And are Indian Muslims continuing to live in “generalised anxiety” or do they just “see NRC as another chore like Aadhar”? Or is it just the upper class muslims who have to live in this “generalised anxiety”?”

The Indian Muslims known to me have been anxious right since May 2014 when this government came to power. But from what I have heard, this NRC has not significantly increased the anxiety of the poor Muslims, who seem to see it as a chore, like Aadhaar. They seem to instinctively know that there are too many of them to be deported or detained. I haven’t spoken to any middle/upper class Muslim regarding this, but from what I have observed, they seemed to be quite/more worried.

Btw, this article tells how this illegal immigrants issue has shaped the politics of Assam & Bengal since 1935 and how politicians like Mamata Banerjee, who now opposes NRC, had in the past resigned her MP seat demanding removal of illegal immigrants.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/cab-is-a-new-story-here-s-how-illegal-migrants-shaped-politics-in-assam-and-west-bengal-1627548-2019-12-12

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Siva

December 31, 2019

@Sanjay
I wish your comment’s contents weren’t true 😦

@vijay
” So, whats the conclusion. Is BR a good reviewer or not? ”

The …. what?

Come on people, stop harassing BR. Only I am allowed to do that 😀

LikeLiked by 1 person
Sanjay

December 31, 2019

Unfortunately, worst fears are coming true Siva. This will continue to happen until Indians will blindly follow a person and vote him in because of hate and thrill to destroy their own people. This is just the beginning and within six years Modi and Shah have managed to do what India’s worst enemies couldn’t – to set India at war with itself and he is a gift for Indian enemies. War that engenders within is far dreadful than the one fought at borders.

LikeLiked by 2 people
Siva

December 31, 2019

@Sanjay
” until Indians will blindly follow a person ”

Yep. Unfortunately, we as a country have always been guilty of that. The problem is, we don’t want to course correct said devotion, even if at some point we begin to realize that our perceived angel was in fact a demon all along. It seems like both in love and politics, we believe what we ‘want’ to believe, as opposed to believing what is laid out in front of our eyes. We ignore the signs. We ignore our instincts. And we ignore our eyes. We live in a blissfully delusional world of denial.

” to set India at war with itself …. War that engenders within is far dreadful than the one fought at borders. ”

Again, yep. And it reminds me of a similar line from the movie ‘Captain America: Civil War’ :

An empire toppled by its enemies can rise again. But one that crumbles from within? That’s dead — forever.

LikeLiked by 1 person
An Jo

January 17, 2020

कौुआ आपका कान ले जाएगा| अपने कान पकड़के तो देखिए कई कान है की नही! और वैसे भी मीं फिल्मए कम देखता हूह|

Good thing he doesn’t watch movies…

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Sanjay

January 17, 2020

Glad he said it. Kabir echoes similar thoughts on Bollywood’s historical distortions,

” On Bollywood’s historical distortions and disturbing politics:

“I think as a filmmaker, you have to make a film that you stand by and you’re comfortable with, because thing is the only person you truly know is yourself. You don’t know anybody else. So at least one person should be happy with what you’re making. And once you’re there, you have to keep your fingers crossed that a large section of people identify with your politics, identify with your ideology, and the way you’ve set it. So I don’t believe that there should be too much of an effort to — see that’s when agenda start coming in.

“There are films that we’re seeing, which are dangerous films, which are sometimes distortions of history and there, you start wondering, ‘Is this an agenda? I mean, why have they done this? Do they truly believe this is the way it happened?’ The way a lot of the medieval battles are being suddenly being represented as battles that have happened between religions. Religion was never a consideration. That king wanted your land, he didn’t give a rat’s a– whether you’re Hindu or Muslim, right.

“Now today after five-six hundred years, we’re going to relook at those battles and say. ‘Oh, this was a battle between you know Islam and Hinduism.’ It’s such an utter distortion of history. And then if that is being done to fit into the sort of larger narrative that’s happening these days, where everything is being grouped through the prism of religion, then that’s sad if somebody is doing that.”

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sanjay

January 22, 2020

To all the Trolls here who think that Actors,Celebrities,Sports stars etc should not have a voice in reference to politics or politicians do watch this speech by Actor par excellence Robert De Niro 👍👍👍 @deepikapadukone @ReallySwara @sushant_says @RichaChadha @anuragkashyap72 https://t.co/GPYDzuwftl

— Farah Khan (@FarahKhanAli) January 21, 2020

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