(by G Waugh)
“It’s not radical Islam that worries the US — it’s independence”
This was Noam Chomsky, America’s most famous and controversial public intellectual and polemicist. In today’s world where Islamophobia is fast becoming the norm in even relatively secular countries, a short flashback of the role America played in nurturing Islamic terrorism in the last fifty years or so will help us contextualize the phenomena.
The creation of Israel in 1948 from a Muslim-dominated Palestine with America’s support could safely be regarded as the starting point of the story. Muslims across the world were outraged at the atrocities committed by the US-backed Israel Government on innocent Muslims as a result of which even countries like India refused to recognize the country for more than two years.
Various disparate organizations and movements began to sprout across the world in the ensuing decades that kept protesting the loss of human rights of Palestinians at the hands of the US-backed Israelis and some of them were ready to turn militant if the atrocities continued.
The World Muslim League was established following a conference in 1962 in Saudi Arabia which brought Muslim clerics and leaders of different nationalities together to devise means and ways to spread Islam across the world. The movement was blessed by the United States to create a counter-narrative to secular Arab socialism propounded by left-wing Egyptian leader Gamel Abdul Nasser that was rapidly spreading across the Third World.
In 1979, the PDPA-led communist government in Afghanistan faced a severe internal crisis which invited the intervention of the Soviet Union to settle it. The inter-party crisis was taken advantage of by Islamic radical groups within Afghanistan which were unhappy with the progressive programmes introduced by the communists that included education of women and land reform. The radical groups within the country did not have sufficient support from outside as a result of which they were quite easy to suppress by even a steadily disintegrating government as the one led by the PDPA in Afghanistan.
This was the time the United States decided to interfere in the Afghanistan crisis and turn the balance against the ruling Soviet-backed communists. The CIA and the Pentagon struck a partnership with the Pakistani ISI to help the radical Islamists in Afghanistan to mount an integrated, armed struggle against the communists. Training camps were set in various regions controlled by mujahideens or guerilla warriors in Afghanistan and financial and military support from the United States was massive. Meanwhile, various charity organizations from Saudi Arabia committed towards the spreading of Islam throughout the world also poured in donations towards the cause. When the Soviet Union brought its troops into the landlocked country, the mujahideen resistance was to its surprise, resolute and extremely robust.
The war ran for over a decade during which the mujahideens with external help from Saudi Arabia and other countries such as Sudan, Lebanon,etc had prepared the ground for armed struggles for the protection and spread of Islam in other countries as well. The professional training imparted by the Americans on the use of advanced weaponry gave the radicals immense confidence which they sought to use in struggles happening elsewhere including the one that went on in Kashmir. The radicals also ensured that the acquired knowledge was also passed on to newer and younger recruits through numerous madrassas and other small-scale institutions funded by the Pakistani intelligence.
The Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan in 1988 while a new radical regime made up of orthodox students of Islam called Taliban came to dominate and take over the country within a few years. The leader of the regime, Mullah Omar sought to reverse the progressive legislations brought about the erstwhile Soviet-backed government. Female participation in workforce was banned, the use of hijab was made mandatory once again. The Taliban also grew close to an influential Saudi businessman, Osama Bin Laden who had been pouring massive amounts of cash for the mujahideens for their struggle against the Soviets. The US by the beginning of 1990s began to withdraw from Afghanistan and with the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, lost all interest in Afghan affairs.
***
Ever since India’s independence in 1947, the issue of Kashmir continued to fester the relations between India and Pakistan. In all the three wars that happened between the two neighbours, the United States came strongly in support of our Islamic neighbor. The Soviet Union always supported India’s cause in various international forums and also provided necessary financial and military assistance during these wars. The United States turned a blind-eye to ISI-sponsored terrorism by Pakistan in Kashmir for more than four decades. In today’s context where India has gravitated significantly towards the United States to the extent of even turning into as its junior military partner, open-minded right-wingers who subscribe to trenchant ‘anti-Pakistani’ Hindutva narratives could do well to take a few moments to recall the strong nexus that existed between their much-favoured US and their arch-enemy Pakistan that dominated Asian politics ever since our Independence.
***
When Osama Bin Laden’s Al Qaeda attacked the Twin towers and the Pentagon on September 9,2001 the attitude of the American Government in Afghan affairs turned from nonchalance into unbridled hostility. The American war on terrorism that followed the 9/11 attack destroyed the Taliban regime that was actively supporting terrorism in various countries. But the human cost of the war was nonetheless, substantial. This victory soon morphed into a virtual addiction for the American establishment towards war-making which manifested in their subsequent attack on Iraq in 2003.
The fall of the Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq came at the end of one of the world’s greatest artificial catastrophes seen ever since the Vietnam War of 1955-75. Millions of Iraqi homes were destroyed, thousands of Iraqi families were bereaved and to top it all, the new regime installed by a ‘democracy-loving’ United States surpassed the records of medieval bandits and plunderers of yore in ravaging the oil-rich country.
The reconstruction of the country was taken over by American construction firms which were in turn paid for by the Iraqi tax-payer. The various public sector companies in Iraq were privatized by the regime led by an American Paul Bremer and a host of American corporations reveled in the bounty of the loot. New economic policies dictated by American financial and accounting companies were unleashed over the Iraqi commoners who had to pay more taxes while their jobs were being increasingly taken over by various American outsourcing firms.
The ravages of the wars sponsored by the America-backed NATO over Afghanistan and Iraq no doubt destroyed the pillars of terrorist outfits like Al Qaeda but gave rise to new, larger, better-organized outfits such as the new ISIS. The ISIS was built very much on the frustration suffered by millions of homeless and orphaned Afghans and Iraqis at the hands of the American military. Human rights abuses as evidenced by the infamous Abu Ghraib incident, torture faced by civilians at the hands of American military and private contractors contributed significantly to the disenchantment of millions of innocents, a good number of whom swelled the ranks of the ISIS later.
As one is able to see, to gain an understanding into the looming threats of large-scale global terrorism, it is essential to introduce oneself to the realities and consequences of America-dictated geopolitics that dominated the Third World ever since the end of the Second World War. I see a lot of Indians supporting the current ruling establishment taking blind, one-dimensional stands on issues such as Islamic terrorism which on a lot of occasions translate quickly into hate and suspicion of fellow peace-loving Muslims. The role of the avaricious American corporations that own businesses ranging from arms to oil to consumer durables is something that is too crucial to be ignored while studying the causes of international terrorism. Countries like India cannot hope to solve the issue by blindly embracing one-dimensional anti-Islamist narratives or growing close to countries that have aided and abetted terrorism directly or indirectly in the past like the US.The Pulitzer-prize winning journalist Steve Coll in his pro-American book The Ghost Wars hints at the possibility of the American Government turning a blind eye to Saudi charities and organizations that supported and financed terrorism during the days of Bin Laden in order not to harm the interests of American oil corporations that were doing business with Saudi oil companies. The rapacity of the American Oil firms and their role in backing the American invasion of Iraq came to the foreground when these firms rushed to plunder the rich oil and mineral reserves that were hitherto owned by the Iraqi State immediately following the war. Without understanding the language of profit which is so inextricably linked with destruction and wars and abuse of human rights, one shall inevitably be handicapped in his pursuit towards cracking the language of universal human freedom.
Based on references from:
Hegemony or Survival by Noam Chomsky
Understanding Power by Noam Chomsky
People’s History of the Third World by Vijay Prashad
The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein
Essays of Arundhati Roy
The Ghost Wars by Steve Coll
Baradwaj Rangan 
theeversriram
August 16, 2020
Stage set for another fierce debate on Islam. Let us see whether people want to discuss again or are tired of same topics.
Pretty easy to ignore all issues with Islam and put the blame squarely on US & BJP??
And Arundhati Roy as a source! I confess was a huge fan once but nowadays she is the equivalent of intellectual tear-jerker mega serials.
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Madan
August 16, 2020
I wonder if you have watched the documentary Hyper-Normalisation by Adam Curtis, which traces the journey of Islamic terror…from Hafez-Al-Assad’s disillusionment with Kissinger’s antics pushing him to introduce suicide bombing, US propping up Gadaffi as a false flag because they didn’t want to take on Syria (!) to Israel’s strong arm tactics against Hamas inadvertently leading to them coming in contact with the Hezbollah. Which, for the first time, brought suicide bombing to the Sunni world which had hitherto considered it haram.
I think words like Islamophobia, Socialist, Fundamentalist are frequently just useful devices for those in power to frame the debate and, to quote Chomsky, manufacture consent. Classifying people into such categories for the beliefs they hold (with a derogatory connotation) is itself an Orwellian approach. We are just all pawns in the hands of those who wield power at the end of the day.
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Aman Basha
August 16, 2020
Every religion has an extremist element within it, yet with respect to my limited information, no extremist element of any religion has the funding of oil money like the Islamist terrorists do, For that, both the US and Saudi Arabia are to blame, and back home in India, Muhammad Ali Jinnah and the British.
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Prakash
August 16, 2020
While I agree that US is much to blame for the current mess in middle east, too much leeway is given to Islam. Persecution of people cannot be a justification for terrorism. If that was the case Dalits and women must be terrorists. Islam is dangerous due to its followers mindless adherence to a book written 1000 years ago whose tenets are not applicable in a modern nation state. Suspicion towards Islam will exist until muslims reform their religion and show their commitment to a secular nation state rather than to Sharia.
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Enigma
August 17, 2020
This is a controversial topic, in these troubled times I am not sure if it is a good idea to open the floor for attacks and counter-attacks.
In the Indian context at least, it is not the Muslims who attack Hindus/Hinduism, it is the extreme left and extremist organisations like the DK/VCK, and other similar organisations, that frequently abuse Hindus and their culture. The fact that these extremist organisations take up some issues relevant to the Muslims, and join hands with certain Islamic organisations, should not be a reason for BJP and their allies to attack the Muslims. The immediate need of the hour is Hindu-Muslim reconciliation, which only organisations like INC, AAP, SP, RJD, NCP etc. are capable of delivering. Extremists have to be shunned before matters become any worse. I lived in the Middle East for nearly a decade and did not meet a single Arab or Pakistani Muslim who were critical of Hindus/Hinduism. Not one person tried to convert me or claimed that Islam is a superior religion. Now this is my personal experience, other may have had other experiences.
After the last few years of BJP, I have now grown to appreciate the appeal of the old style secularists like INC, Trinamool, SP, RJD, Deve Gowda etc. Whatever be their drawbacks, they at least did not try to start civil wars on a daily basis.
@Prakash, I am afraid I do not agree. What has muslims ‘reforming’ or Islamic nations becoming secular got to do with you? As long as they don’t interfere in your business, you should leave their internal matters to them. They have their beliefs, you have yours. Live and let live.
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Srinivas R
August 17, 2020
While i agree that one dimensional anti-islam view will aggravate the problem and that US and it’s allied western powers have played a significant role in weaponizing the radical islam forces, we still cannot hide the room. Islam has largely refused to move out of it’s 6th century beginings. Text that was written during the time of war is still intrepreted as it is. Largely progressive societies have degraded under the clutches of Islam.
NO other religion has led to nation states being controlled by crazy radicals. Afghanistan, Lebanon, Turkey are but a few examples of countries which were modern and secular till islamists took over. Yes, US played a role, definitely, but what allowed them to play a role was the largely unmalleable beleifs fostered by Islam.
I sincerely believe that educated, progressive, accomplished muslims should speak out against the regressive practices of the religion. This is true of all religions. You will find that a lot of Hindus, even upper caste ones will voice out against casteism. Except for a very few, you rarely hear any muslim speak against the violation of women’s rights, about the constant discourse around kaffirs and non-kaffirs. Even as recent as 2017, in Tamilnadu which is no where near islamophobic, there was a “shirk ozhipu maanadu” – a conference against idol worship conducted by a TN islam organization. The recent attacks in Srilanka where churches were bombed, was at least partly supported by people from Tamilnadu. Zakir Naik enjoys massive support from mainstream muslims, while holding forth on things like how husbands should beat wives and how music is haram for Islam. We have responsibility to speak out against it, if we care for an equitable society. Ignoring this will lead us to half baked solutions and rise of the extremism on the other side.
As as aside, I don’t support BJP, have never voted for them, never will. There is a tendency to assume that anyone who points out the issues with Islam is automatically a Hindutva supporter, so just clarifying.
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Aman Basha
August 17, 2020
@Srinivas R: I agree with what you say, and the answer to I think of all of Islam’s current problems is state sponsored Wahabbism. For a personal example, the increasing identity and faith assertion has been noticed by my family as more of a recent phenomenon. I absolutely agree that the war time verses of the Quran are being willfully misrepresented and regarding Triple Talaq and the Muslim Establishment’s stance of it, I have some points:
The act of uttering talaq thrice is to give a gap between each of them so as to take the words back if the couple reconciles
As per tradition, Muslim women usually have a separate income and get to keep the wedding gifts which could be assumed to be their alimony, yet which Muslim really follows it?
Do they really think holding the word of God to cause the suffering of thousands of women without any nuance will be helpful?
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Madan
August 17, 2020
Srinivas R: Turkey is the most disappointing of all. Because it even has a secular culture on the ground as it has been a meeting place of East and West for centuries. Until now, even Erdogan hadn’t much disturbed this arrangement. But as he continues to flounder, managing to antagonize NATO, Russia and India all at the same time, he is now turning to more hardline Islam as signalled by converting Sophia Hague into a mosque all over again. Russia has offered to build an equal sized replica of the cathedral in Syria.
Enigma: From my experience of talking to Muslims from various backgrounds, those in particular who are disenchanted with rabid religionists in Pakistan or India allege that the desire for Islamic supremacy is a South Asian disease and is indeed not seen in the Gulf. I also agree that in India, the left oriented parties are much more responsible for this situation than Muslims themselves. Right from Shah Bano overturning days, they have enabled the hardliners and ignored moderate Muslims. Making it harder for moderate Muslims to voice their opinions which in turns makes the Hindu right suspect their intentions.
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Srinivas R
August 17, 2020
@Aman Basha – About TripleTalaq, from limited discussion with a few muslim friends, the way it is being implmented is very different from what it is supposed to work like – giving sufficient time for reconciliation and security for the women. Ultimately it degraded to Talaq over WhatsApp and what not. The entire process of having triple talaq removed was started with significant support from Muslim women, so i think it’s reasonable to conclude that Muslim women would be ok with it’s abolition.(open to counter views)
In general,(saying this only as an observation), the average muslim places far more imporatnce on following the “rules” of a religion than an average Hindu or Christian. So I know of muslim colleagues who will never take a loan or invest in interest bearing investments (or donate all S/B interest as charity) as it is seen as anti-islamic.This sort of strict adherence to certain ideas (that too only because it says so in a religious text) is always a ticking time bomb IMO. It takes away your agency and relies on blind faith of something you may not comprehend fully.
About state sponsered Wahabism, isn’t this mainly done by Saudi Arabia?. Is there a way to counter it, or the western and other governments too weak to counter it?
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Srinivas R
August 17, 2020
This is a view i tend to agree with, though the writer is sort of short selling some of the genuine concerns of muslims.
https://theprint.in/opinion/indian-muslims-must-rewrite-their-victim-mindset-to-be-indispensable-in-indias-rise/483132/?amp&__twitter_impression=true
From the article:
It’s true that Islam is no longer the politically dominant religion. But neither is any other religion, including Hinduism, which, in theological terms, does not present itself as the maker and arbiter of India’s politics. Hindutva is an ethno-nationalist movement, which very avowedly anchors itself in nationalism, not in religion. Muslims, on the other hand, continue to think of politics in terms of religion because of the lack of reform.
And so, much like it doesn’t mean a loss of power for the followers of Hinduism and Christianity or any other religion, it doesn’t mean one for Muslims either. Most of the major religions have been secularised. For the ordinary people, transition from religion to secularism is a progress, not a loss.
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Srinivas R
August 17, 2020
Madan: Toatlly agree on Erdogan and Turkey,what he is doing in Turkey should warn us about how majoritarion poiltics can run amock , if we let it. Also a lot of so called left voices and people who cry about Hindu majoritarianism will support Erdogan and changing of Hagia Sofia to a mosque.
We live in a world of binaries, so if you oppose Hindutva brand of politics, you will be considered an islamist. If you oppose regressive ideas in Islam, you will be considered a Bhakth. Very difficult to have any sesnisble discussion. So far so good in this space.
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Madan
August 17, 2020
Srinivas R: I once had a discussion with a senior colleague who had been posted in Turkey through the period when its character changed as Erdogan gained more and more control. He said the pattern of events in India worried him as they reminded him of Turkey. At that time, we discussed how in 2013, India was dubbed as one of the Fragile Five while Turkey was touted as a stable economy. In the (then) intervening 4 years, RR and Urjit Patel had provided macro economic stability and brought the rupee back while the Lira collapsed as Erdogan made a crony the Central Bank Governor. Since that conversation, of course, Urjit was sent home and a crony was made the RBI Governor here too. Fortunately for India (and this is something for which he doesn’t get credit), Shaktikanta Das turned out to be a wonderful people’s person, managing to keep Modi, Shah and Nirmala happy while also essentially listening to the inputs of subject experts. He has ended up winning praise in international quarters for his handling of the RBI. We won’t be so lucky next time a crony is appointed. We need to steer our way back to sound economic management.
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Enigma
August 17, 2020
@Madan, many Arab muslims I interacted with were moderate but conservative. I am sure that most Indian muslims are moderates too. The terrible situation in a India is a direct result of the hard left’s extreme Hinduphobic positions. This has pushed Hindus into the arms of the BJP. The government should have united the people by bringing in blasphemy laws which would have protected all religions and culture against vicious attacks.
I agree with respect to Erdogan, a despicable man. I follow the discussions in reddit Turkey, apparently Erdogan has good support in the rural areas but faces opposition in the cities. It maybe difficult to remove him in the foreseeable future.
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Honest Raj
August 17, 2020
It’s true that Islam is no longer the politically dominant religion. But neither is any other religion, including Hinduism, which, in theological terms, does not present itself as the maker and arbiter of India’s politics.
Hinduism has always been the dominant religion in the political sphere of India (pre-and post-independent). Had India been a theocratic state, the biggest enemies of Hindus would’ve been Hindus themselves.
Hindutva is an ethno-nationalist movement, which very avowedly anchors itself in nationalism, not in religion.
This is like saying that BJP and RSS are independent of each other. I haven’t read the whole article but seems the author wants to be a ‘Good Muslim’ in the eyes of Hindu right.
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Varsha Ganesh
August 17, 2020
Slightly off-topic but Srinivas
s comments about lack of insider opposition made me think. One thing Ive been very curious about but havent gotten a clear answer from my muslim acquaintances is how is the attrition rate from the religion so low, compared to Hinduism or Christianity. In my personal experience, I see quite a lot of Hindus and Christians (younger, late 20s folks) renouncing their religion, becoming agnostic/atheists but not as many who practice Islam. I see second-generation immigrant muslim kids here in the US who still pray thrice a day, try to follow their rules as much as possible. What is this magic that other religions havent been able to crack? (Rabid BJP younger bhakts in India dont count. They don`t believe in their God or religion as much as they believe in the idea of exclusivity and hate) Or is my anecdotal evidence not representative enough?LikeLiked by 1 person
KS
August 17, 2020
My father was in a transferable job, so I too spent a chunk of my school years in the middle east, in one of the supposedly more “liberal” cities. We had a comfy house, a chauffeur-driven car, life was good. I have great memories of my childhood there.
However, when I look back, there were many oddities when it came to religion, which never registered in my head while I was a child. Small insignificant incidents which I see in a different light now.
Once I took an Amar Chitra Katha comic to school (tales of Hanuman, I think). An Arab kid was understandably fascinated by the colorful imagery, and borrowed it. When my parents heard about this innocent incident, they panicked, and I couldn’t understand why. Thankfully, the Arab kid hadn’t showed the comic to his parents, so nothing noteworthy happened. But my parents’ reaction stayed with me.
Another time, it was Deepavali, and my dad managed to get some small sparklers and flower pots from some Indian dealer. We were having fun with it, and suddenly an Arab man comes and yells at us. We had to apologize and make a hasty retreat.
Our city was so tolerant and liberal that they were magnanimous enough to allow a temple to exist, so we used to visit it often. It was a tiny make-shift shrine inside a dingy house on a seedy lane in a shanty part of town. Even this used to close on Islamic holidays or if there was any risk of offending the Arabs.
Each time we took a flight from India, my mom had to hide the images of gods inside books, and other tiny idols along with jewellery, so that the Arabs at the airport don’t confiscate our religious items.
So when I moved back to Chennai, I was reminded of these and many other such incidents from time to time.
When I encounter Muslims passing out free Qurans at CitiCentre mall, I am reminded of the amar chitra katha incident.
When I hear the azaan every evening from my balcony, I am reminded of how we had to celebrate all our religious festivals in a hush-hush manner indoors.
When I see the sprawling mosques here, I am reminded of the shanty temple hidden in a seedy apartment.
And many more….
I start to think, are we ilichavayis? Tolerance is a two-way street. Its as if we are held to an insanely high standard, while Muslims are applauded for mundane acts we should take for granted.
As long as almost every Muslim-majority state is a sharia theocracy where other religions are non-existent in the public sphere, where minorities have to live like rats hiding their religious identity, there will be Islamophobia.
Sincerely,
A Hindutva hate-monger
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hari
August 18, 2020
The way the Islamists have used Left/Liberals in India is mind boggling. Instead of helping the common Muslims cause, the left/liberals do a great disservice to them.
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Enigma
August 18, 2020
@Varsha Ganesh “I see quite a lot of Hindus and Christians (younger, late 20s folks) renouncing their religion, becoming agnostic/atheists but not as many who practice Islam.”
That is something I admire in Muslims, their firm belief in their religion and culture. I feel that generally Hindu parents are very liberal and do not inculcate the right cultural values in their children. This was not the case earlier – I remember my aunt telling me that her father (my grand dad) would beat up the kids if any of them missed their daily prayers. A Indian Muslim former colleague of mine, in the Middle East, would speak to his mum in India, over the phone, in my presence, and she would be asking him if he was doing his daily namaaz. I feel that Hindus are not conservative enough. By ‘conservative’ I do not mean BJP extremist conservative but the need for us to follow our culture. We need to be conservative but fair and respect all.
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Madan
August 18, 2020
“I start to think, are we ilichavayis?” – No, we are votebank payithakaaras. Tell me, can a govt that bulldozed through the building of Ram temple and also managed triple talaq verdict and law amendment in Parliament not stipulate rules for say loudspeaker volume for azan if they wanted to? Of course they can. They won’t because, guess what, 9% of Muslims vote for BJP. And that 9% becomes very important in key Western UP constituencies where Muslim population is 40% or so. BJP can’t depend only on Hindu votes so they need to get that sliver of Muslim votes to get past the post.
However, we would not be able to decide how we will ‘let’ Muslims build mosques in India based on how they ‘allow’ temples to be built in Gulf. The reason for that is our Constitution guarantees religious freedom. And that religious freedom is not only for Hindus or Muslims but for Sikhs, Jains, Parsis, Jews and Christians (not intended to be a comprehensive list!). I purposely mentioned Christians last because you will immediately start missionary and conversion angle. Fine, so what are you going to say then to fully integrated communities like the first three (and even Jews)? What laws have they broken, what public disorder have they caused? We cannot throw other minorities under the bus just because it is somehow necessary to counter what Muslims do in the Gulf. This is India, not Gulf. It should not bother you if Muslims can build sprawling mosques here because there are sprawling temples, churches, gurudwaras, synagogues and agiaries likewise. What should bother you is if blood letting from goat sacrifice spills on public thoroughfares or if they insist on doing goat sacrifice in residential housing societies, if the azan is too loud, so on and so forth. As Enigma said, if their practice of their own religion does not cause inconvenience to you, you have no case to make. We cannot turn India into a Hindu Gulf because you or others carry a grievance about your experience in the Gulf. You and your family worked in the Gulf of your free will and made a choice which you knew what it entailed.
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KayKay
August 18, 2020
@Varsha Ganesh “I see quite a lot of Hindus and Christians (younger, late 20s folks) renouncing their religion, becoming agnostic/atheists but not as many who practice Islam.”
Unlike other religions, I feel the difference is Islam derives compliance via enforcement rather than encouragement.
Let me give you a perspective from someone who’s born, bred and still lives in a predominantly Muslim country where Islam is enshrined in the constitution as it’s official religion. AND preface it by saying this isn’t some Islamophobic rant. Just the facts:
Malaysian Law does not recognize marriage between a Muslim and a non-Muslim. A Non-Muslim wishing to marry a Muslim MUST convert to Islam before that marriage can be recognized. And it’s a strictly one-way street. There’s no going back.
Apostasy is against the law specifically with regards to renouncing Islam. In 2 of the Muslim Majority states up North, Kelantan & Terengganu apostasy by a Muslim is a crime punishable by death and forfeiture of property; however, federal law prohibits the death penalty from being carried out.
Note: Varsha Ganesh, points 1&2, in Malaysia at least accounts for the negligible numbers of Muslims leaving their faith
It’s not all gloom and doom. Malaysia is still a relatively peaceful country where all faiths co-exist in harmony. Religious riots are a rarity (the last major one was in 1969) and there’s a proliferation of temples and churches even in Muslim dominated suburbs. And I noted a comment from KS above where Hindu celebrations need to be muted in the Middle East. In Malaysia, where Tamils make up the largest composition of Indians, Thaipusam is a Public holiday and every year, major roads in KL are closed off for 2 days to facilitate a chariot procession of Lord Muruga from a temple here in the city to Batu Caves where the festival is celebrated with pomp. Not too shabby for a Muslim country where Indians comprise the smallest ethnic group by population.
@Enigma “I feel that generally Hindu parents are very liberal and do not inculcate the right cultural values in their children”
I’ll evoke the enforcement vs encouragement argument here. There’s a whole rigid infra-structure governing Abrahamic Faiths, especially Islam, diligently enforced by their religious institutions and spiritual leaders listing down do’s and dont’s right down to the number of times you need to pray a day and the Muslim Male’s obligation to attend Friday prayers at the mosque. Hinduism and by extension, Buddhism is fundamentally a way of life with it’s own system of intricate beliefs which followers are coaxed rather than coerced to adhere to.
Take an example of a Hindu who simply decides not to practice the faith. Some hand-wringing and eye-rolls from conservative parents or relatives is about as much grief as they’re going to get.
A Muslim taking a similar decision will very quickly feel the heat from their well-established “eco-system” of family, relatives, friends and finally the local mosque and it’s prominent religious leaders for straying from the true faith and risking hellfire and damnation , which brings me to the fundamental difference between Islam and other religions, once again PURELY from what I observe here in Malaysia. A “poojari”, Buddhist Monk or Church Pastor can only dream of the reach and influence of an Imam within their community.
And finally, I too subscribe to the belief that there will always be fanatical elements in any faith, but it requires strong and vocal voices of moderation to quash it. It’s especially lacking in Muslims in Malaysia. A lot of my Muslim friends are liberal and can’t stand this virulent strain of Islamic Fundamentalism, but griping over a beer in a pub is as public a declaration as they’re willing to make on this topic.
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KS
August 18, 2020
@Madan:
“You and your family worked in the Gulf of your free will and made a choice which you knew what it entailed.”
Of course, but this is the bigotry of low expectations I’m talking about. Like when Muslims riot, we blame the other side for “provoking” them. When Islamic countries have no standards of tolerance or rights for minorities, we say “you know what you signed up for by going there”. Its always “they are like that only, please adjust”.
I understand that we should not become like the gulf just for revenge, and never suggested anything like that. So I don’t need the cliched lectures on the constitution of India and self-righteous sermons about religious freedom. All I want to point out is that Islamophobia will continue to exist as long as places with a Muslim majority treat their religious minorities so shabbily. This makes it hard to trust their religion, which in turn makes it hard to look at a mosque with the same love as a Sikh gurudwara or Jain mandir. And I’m not even getting into the historic wounds concerning Islamic depredations in Indian history and the destruction of our temples.
Personally, I do love the idea of freedom of religion in theory. But some religions aren’t just religions, but expansionist ideologies under the umbrella of religion. I do think monotheistic expansionist religions, specifically Islam and Christianity (given their long history of mischief and brutal undermining of other traditions), must be treated differently from other religions like Indian traditions (Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, etc.) or even Judaism and Zoroastrianism (which are monotheistic but benign). Its not a level playing field. There is a serious asymmetry in the game, and non-evangelizing pacifist religions are at a systemic disadvantage against the poaching tendencies of expansionist abrahamics. To use a cruel metaphor, its like an ecosystem being disrupted by an invasive species.
You might not care about any of this if you don’t believe in religion. Maybe you’re too cool for superstitions and stuff, you’re all about science and the future yo. But not everybody is that way. I do care about the beliefs and experiences of our ancestors, their stories, their symbols. Its a legacy which I feel duty-bound to preserve and cherish. Just to be clear, I’m not saying we’re perfect, nor am I suggesting any brutal oppression of minorities or anti-constitutional strategies. I am not advocating any concrete actions. Just saying the mistrust cannot be papered over with tiresome inanities about peace and equality.
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Enigma
August 18, 2020
@KayKay, thank you for that information, that was very insightful. I lived in the Middle East, as I had mentioned before, and the laws and cultural practices are quite similar. The Arab Muslims that I met and interacted with over there were religious, conservative and at the same time respectful. There were a few Hindu temples with the main one being quite prominent attracting a lot of overseas and local visitors. It was showcased by the government as a symbol of the country’s liberal ethos. I, as a Hindu, did not have any problem practicing my faith there.
Anyway, on a different note, the system of enforcement practiced in Islam is essential to pass on the culture and values from one generation to another. Otherwise it will all be lost over time. I wish we Hindus could hold on to our cultural values like the way Muslims have.
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Srinivas R
August 18, 2020
@HonestRaj – Agree about the prominence of Hinduism in Indian politics. The author in a way is trying to play a”good muslim”, but the article is worth a read inspite of it.
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Madan
August 18, 2020
“Maybe you’re too cool for superstitions and stuff, you’re all about science and the future yo. But not everybody is that way. I do care about the beliefs and experiences of our ancestors, their stories, their symbols.” – My view is you are allowed to practice your religion – in India – under the law and any difficulties faced in that should be addressed by govt at all levels. But what happened to you in Gulf is not my concern and no, it’s not bigotry of low expectations. I literally cannot help you for what happens outside India. A Telugu chap was also shot by a nutcase white supremacist in the US soon after Trump got elected. I can only say it is unfortunate but we can’t change anything about the legal structure in India as a response. The guy living there knew America has racists and America allows everyone, including racists, to have guns. QED. It’s the same as if I were a filmmaker here, I know I would not have absolute freedom especially in religious matters, that there is a chance my set could be disrupted by vandals in the name of religion and that Censor Board would hold it up to extract a pound of flesh. These are the problems with our situation which a filmmaker in the US wouldn’t experience.
” Just saying the mistrust cannot be papered over with tiresome inanities about peace and equality.” – Neither did I say it could, so you are simply reading what you want into what I said. I will repeat the relevant portions from my previous post again and if you still try to spin it so as to pursue your own agenda, it’s on you. Not my problem, not my concern.
” Tell me, can a govt that bulldozed through the building of Ram temple and also managed triple talaq verdict and law amendment in Parliament not stipulate rules for say loudspeaker volume for azan if they wanted to? Of course they can.”
“What should bother you is if blood letting from goat sacrifice spills on public thoroughfares or if they insist on doing goat sacrifice in residential housing societies, if the azan is too loud, so on and so forth. ”
What part of the above is “tiresome inanities over peace and equality?” OTOH I am saying the laws exist to put Muslims, or others, in place when they take advantage of it. So do it. Who’s stopping you? I voted for BJP in 2014 in part because I felt minority appeasement had gone too far. I am waiting…for them to actually act against minority appeasement and not do Hindu-Muslim for entertainment and votes. They are far more interested in the latter because it gets votes. As long as people think short term symbolism is more important than politicians making the legal machinery work in the way it is supposed to, nothing is going to change, at least nothing that would be meaningful. This govt has far more time to push through a constitutional amendment for CAA than to change the preamble and remove the words secular and socialist. Oohhh, so bigoted!!! No! I am simply asking for the preamble to be restored to what it was before Indira Gandhi added them to the preamble during the Emergency (the irony of ironies!). Religious freedom is already enshrined in the Constitution and there is no need for an additional word secular which is nothing but a cosmetic minority vote gathering exercise.
Of course BJP won’t do it. Why? Because they are big time hypocrites. They would rather keep the structure unchanged from Indira’s time to practice plausible denial than admit they believe these changes are necessary to reverse the damage done by Indira and others.
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nskarthik77
August 18, 2020
@KS – funny that you imply everything in your first post and then backtrack and say you implied nothing when challenged. Radicals are there in every religion. Islam, Hinduism or Christianity. If you allow them to dominate the narrative (as is happening now in India), you will get a Hindu version of an Islamic country. After the Hindu radicals are done with the Muslims, they will come for the ‘liberal’ Hindus..With each group quoting a different Holy Book to suit its narrative and beginning to decide what you u should eat, wear, see etc.
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Honest Raj
August 18, 2020
We cannot throw other minorities under the bus just because it is somehow necessary to counter what Muslims do in the Gulf. This is India, not Gulf.
Well said, Madan! KS seems to be speaking from a bit of an extremist standpoint.
Enigma: Anyway, on a different note, the system of enforcement practiced in Islam is essential to pass on the culture and values from one generation to another. Otherwise it will all be lost over time. I wish we Hindus could hold on to our cultural values like the way Muslims have.
Do you realise that this is exactly the kind of thought that dissuades religions from making an attempt to reform themselves? Religions need reforms. We’re specifically discussing Islam here because it has failed to do so.
On a related note, sometime back an acquaintance (a devout Hindu himself), while having a conversation with my father, shared a similar sentiment–that we (Hindus) are not religious enough and we should learn from the Muslims (he was enamoured by some aspects of their culture – Madrasas and daily-praying habits) when it comes to inculcating ‘bhakti’ in our children from an early age–which had my moderate-conservative father roll his eyes at him.
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KS
August 18, 2020
@nskarthik77
See this is the problem. You are drawing your own conclusions based on my general opinion about why Islamophobia exists. I was simply pointing out my experience and how that made me reflect on the asymmetry. As soon as anybody simply mentions the reality of how Islamic societies treat minorities versus how Muslim minorities get all rights here, don’t assume they are Nazis advocating a final solution. I never said we should take revenge on minorities here, or curtail their rights, or anything concrete like that.
Also, this whole “radicals are there in every religion” is a lazy oversimplification that assumes that all religious teachings are similar. Sure, any religion taken to the extreme is deadly, but some religions have some dangerous core teachings, two of which are:
1) Monotheism: Our god is the one true god, and every other god is a false god.
2) Expansionism: Those not with us are against us, they are sinners and must be brought into our fold by any means.
Islam and Christianity satisfies both 1 and 2, Judaism and Zoroastrianism satisfies 1 but not 2, while most Indian religions are weak on both. If a religion has these two ideas embedded in its core, it becomes orders of magnitude more destructive than other religions. And I’m not being hypothetical; history bears witness to this. Entire civilizations and their cultures have been wiped out thanks to Islam and Christianity. So this equivalence you make between Hindu radicals and abrahamic radicals sounds very simplistic and unfair. Every community may have problems, but the scale and sense of perspective is important.
@Madan:
I don’t understand why you’re getting so worked up. All I said was that my experience of living in an Islamic state made me reflect on how one-sided and asymmetric this whole notion of religious tolerance seems to play out in the real world. You don’t have to empathize with or care about my experience, but just want to point out that Islamophobia isn’t fueled only by narratives of terrorism and historical atrocities (or jingoistic xenophobic bigotry), but also the current reality of Muslim-majority societies and their unapologetic stomping of minorities. People’s negative impression of a religion or community isn’t always because of political propaganda and manufactured hatred, but often a sum total of such personal experiences and lived realities which cannot be dismissed.
The legal and political aspects are another story, and not what I am focusing on (which is why I didn’t respond to your long irrelevant rant about the BJP). I do believe I am tolerant. Just that when I am in a Hindu temple, I feel at home. If I am in a Sikh Gurudwara or Jain temple, I feel an active connection and joy in participating in their culture. With Parsis and Jews, there is a sense of genuine respect, curiosity and fascination for a different tradition.
But with Islam or Christianity, it feels like a creeping encroachment. There is too much historical baggage to trust them whole-heartedly. So while I tolerate them in the spirit of the constitution, thats all I can muster. Its just legally enforced tolerance for the sake of civic order, and no love. I guess thats good enough for now.
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nskarthik77
August 18, 2020
@KS – well, your ‘simple’ recounting of your so-called experience ended with ‘naamellam izhicha vaaya’ which means that it was an opinion implying various thing. you may now want to hide it and simplify it to project yourself as an innocent party but it is clear. but anyways, thats your opinion and you are entitled to it in a country that was a democracy till 2014..
and the reason why i oversimplify religion and radicalism is pretty simple. i think the way that common people, some of whom turn into such radicals that they can bludgeon so-called cattle smugglers with a hammer, would think as well. the radicals who bay for blood have no idea about jewism, monotheism,expansionism and all those -isms that you talk about, if they did understand about what Hinduism and other religions actually preach, they wouldnt be a radical, baying for blood, in the first place. hope u understand why its actually the simplified thinking that is the truth on the ground rather than any complicated illusions of how various religions supposedly preach. If you believe that Hindus, who kill Muslims and others in the name of religion, are actually docile and any different from the Islamic terrorists, thats pretty fanciful thinking that is used to justify religious violence.
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KS
August 18, 2020
@Enigma:
Its not as if while the secular parties were in power, it was utopia, and as if the rise of sangh politics is causing the hate. I think the causality goes the other way. In this long farce of secularism, all we achieved was brushing under the carpet of festering wounds (apologies for mixing metaphors). The built-up resentment is getting a cathartic release these days, albeit in a relatively controlled manner (barring some unfortunate anamolies like lynchings). This was inevitable, and BJP is just reaping the benefits of this opportunity by being at the right place at the right time, and going along with the sentiment. It would be interesting to see how this all plays out over time.
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KS
August 18, 2020
@nskarthik77:
I cannot stop you from drawing your own conclusions from what I said. However, pointing out an issue is not the same as suggesting a cruel solution. I simply pointed out the glaring discrepancy in different societies’ standards of religious tolerance. When some religions are so blatantly intolerant, it does feel like our unidirectional tolerance makes us naive and weak doormats. Should we do something about it to take revenge? Probably not a good idea. But such experiences still color your feelings about a religion.
I am not endorsing cattle lynchers; thats horrible for various reasons. However, using those stray incidents to build a narrative about Hindu terror is a sinister exaggeration. Its like how a peaceful protest gets de-legitimized because of some stray mischief-mongers who riot or vandalize public property. Sure, the violent elements must be held accountable, but the protest and its cause shouldn’t be dismissed and made out to be terrorism based on inevitable outlier events. The scale and magnitude are what determine our impression. No community is perfect and totally blameless, but we must distinguish between a petty crime and a genocide without getting carried away by human interest sob stories of isolated events. The scale of Islamic (and Christian) atrocities against other cultures throughout history is on another level altogether.
Civilizational wounds are very real, and you can’t brush them away with homilies about how we are all equal, or how all sides carry blame, how its all just misinterpretation, how we must forget and look to the future, etc. Its like telling an untouchable that caste is not birth-based, or how its all the Britishers’ fault or how today everybody is equal according to the constitution. Its just not going to cut it. Just like the lower castes carry a justified resentment against upper castes for all the injustices, Hindus and other native communities will carry some mistrust of abrahamic religions. The constitution can make us tolerate them for the sake of peace, but since there is no love, it will remain unstable until and unless the wounds heal. How do we heal the wounds? That I’m not sure.
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Prakash
August 18, 2020
@nskarthik77- ks was sharing his experiences. Why do you need to make gotcha moments out of it. This blog encourages stream of thought comments. Don’t try to suppress that by subscribing hidden agendas to thinking out loud phrases.
I remember when modi was gujarat cm there was a hue and cry over him not wearing a skull cap. Would the same questions be asked if he had asked the iman to wear a tilak and he refused. This kind of double standards is what made bjp acceptable to majority of people. In tamilnadu Dravidian parties will celebrate iftar but not hindu festivals. People have become smart in seeing through all these hypocrisies. Asking for two religions to be treated the same is not bigotry. That is true secularism. See the US. Supposedly liberal country. But in almost half the states you can’t have a legal abortion because of evangelicals. In my hostel seniors had to give rooms to juniors when vacating. Christians and muslims gave it only to their fellow believers. I know of many more incidents. Of people in vaniyampadi celebrating pakistan victory, to police in Hyderabad afraid of entering muslim localities. While india and hindusim is secular for most of the part, Abhrahamic religions are at the most tolerant of others and at worst actively prosetelysing. If this rant makes me a islamaphobe then I am one.
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Prakash
August 18, 2020
I recently read ” why I am not a muslim” book. It was fascinating. To a true muslim believer, how I am doesn’t matter as I will go to hell anyways just for not acknowledging allah. Can you say the same for other religions. Once you understand a lot of stuff makes sense. On why muslims need a separate personal law code, why muslims empasise their muslim identity over their Indian identity, why muslims needed a separate country. I guess we should be thankful many muslims do not actually follow koran, but just read it aloud.
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Varsha Ganesh
August 18, 2020
Thanks KayKay, that was very insightful. It’s no magic but plain and simple coercion that keeps them within the folds and perpetuates the cycle. If the activation energy to leave is so high, it’s easier to participate and play-act, if nothing else. For a nonpracticing non-believer, makes me appreciate the historical mildness of the religion that I was born into. It’ll be a sad day when its no more mild and it’s coming soon.
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Srinivas R
August 18, 2020
“I am not endorsing cattle lynchers; thats horrible for various reasons. However, using those stray incidents to build a narrative about Hindu terror is a sinister exaggeration.”
You do know that the number of people who justify it right? In news coverage, if a crime is committed by a Muslim, there is a hurry to project his muslimness on the criminal (hello swaraj magazine). We have elected a terror accussed to parliment, which even Pakistan hasn’t done. Whie we may say we don’t endorse the violence, the people who willingly and enthusiastically participated in the demolition of a mosque, have faced 0 consequences. Granted, the pre-sangh period was no milk and honey, not even for Muslims themselves. But do you think something like naroda patiya massacre will disappear from public consciousness pre-modi and pre-sangh dominance in policitcs? What you consider as stray incidents and what was considered fringe elements are mainstream now. Yogi Aditynath had murder and extortion charges against him, which have been completely wiped away. Why do so many “Hindus” support him. While you say “revenge” cannot be the driving force for our response, I see that it is the primary response driving the ultra-hindus. During the Ram Mandira Pooja, twitter trend wasn’t Ram but burnol. It is about putting a community in it’s place. I don’t think that is the way to go about restoring balance.
I share a lot of concerns about the exculsionist and expansionary nature of Islam, but where I disagree is that a stereotyped “revenge” prism that is used to view the community is doing more harm than good and allows th ruling party to get away with zero accountability on real issues of governance, economy and external relations.
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KS
August 18, 2020
@Srinivas R
Fair enough, I get your viewpoint. I disagree, though. For centuries our culture has been demonized and undermined in our own land. And we have to put up with it all even now because secularism.
Secularism in the Indian context makes no sense. Since abrahamics are expansionist, the west needed secularism to put some checks on the excessive power of the church. Even with secularism, abrahamic religions are never threatened because they have the inbuilt predatory mechanism helping them survive. Look at a model secular country, the USA for example. Upto 70% identify as Christian. Another 20% are those fashionably atheist/agnostic/spiritual-but-not-religious type, but this category poses no threat to Christian culture since they are part of the same fold. So upto 90% are culturally Christian. Every other religion is infinitesimal (eg. Jews 2%, Buddhist,Islam,Hinduism 1% each). Its a similar situation in most countries with Islamic or Christian majority, whether secular or not. Point being that it is easy to boast about being secular when your cultural identity faces no threats from any significant group.
In our pluralistic setting, with so many different traditions, secularism (by the western definition) will lead to erosion (or even annihilation) of our identity since our religions are by nature not expansionist, and no match for Islam and Christianity in spreading by hook or crook. I’m speaking for all Indian religions, not just Hinduism. After all, Islam/Christianity both have a millennium of experience in aggressively dominating other cultures. Forget being aggressive, we are vilified even for being defensive of our identity in our own land. Because the narrative is set by the west. And we toe their line by blindly borrowing their notion of secularism. Any suggestion of other approaches is met with fear mongering about fascism.
As I mentioned before, you might not care enough about religious and cultural identity. Maybe you think thats all in the past, and now you care only about climate change, or helping the poor, or the economy. Good for you, but for those of us who don’t want to see our ancestors legacy fade away, religious identity is a priority too. It connects us with our land, our language, our family and community. I don’t see anything wrong in our banding together to democratically and fairly elect leaders who uphold our religion and put the abrahamics in their place. If they can exploit our weaknesses to spread their religion, we can use our strength (numbers and our votes) to put up some resistance. As I said, I don’t have any concrete wishes, and I can’t digest cruelty or injustice. But at the same time, I have to admit there is a kind of cathartic schadenfreude involved in seeing the abrahamics put in their place and their influence diminish. Avanga aadadha aattama? Inime namma time.
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Altman
August 18, 2020
As far as religious reformations go, the Church of England breaking away from Roman Catholicism is the most important event in modern history. The separation of Church and the State in the West gave rise to the ideas of democracy, nation state, human rights, individuality et al.
The two most powerful and affluent countries of the world have Protestant majority which influences the way everyone think and act. Islam and RC have lot of similarities in the way men and women, marriage and children are perceived. Idolatry would be the disparity.
A reformation on par with the Protestant Church is yet to happen in Islam but the chances are slim. On the other hand, the reformations in the West has only led to dissolution of the community and family which in fact has led to increased divorce rates, instability, mental health issues and what not. Muslims would point out to these aspects and say if this is what in store for us, you keep your reformation and we’ll stick to our Quran.
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nskarthik77
August 18, 2020
@KS – i cannot understand how u can brush off violent acts by Hindus as ‘stray’ , isolated incidents while what is done by Muslims are terrorist acts and not stray acts committed by mischief mongers as u would like to potray the violent Hindus as. how much violence by Hindus would convince you that violence isnt based on the religion of the person perpetuating it?
Violence is violence. who does it, what religion he belongs, what -ism he subscribes to, what is the history of that -ism doesnt matter. if you dont condemn all acts of violence by the same yardstick and ensure that strict action is taken for such ‘mischief’, u r only indirectly encouraging it (though u claim not to) and it will continue to grow and grow till no one cannot control it and it begins to burn itself. that is what is gonna happen if you chose to brush away the violent acts of ‘docile’ Hindus as some stray incidents. They will start with the Muslims and once they are done with them, they will come for us and our kids. its a cycle of self-destruction that has just begun !
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nskarthik77
August 18, 2020
@prakash – well, we both dont know what KS truly meant and your guess is as good as mine. So lets talk about our own opinions and let the concerned person answer for himself, right?
You know why BJP is supported by the uneducated, upper caste and vegetarian majority of this country? its cos they believed that they would be led to the ‘Promised’ land, akhand bharat, living life by the Vedas and a society that would be dominated and controlled by the upper castes like yore. this along with other fancy, trending promises like a corruption-free govt, beautiful spotless infrastructure, a young government and India speeding to the top of the world. Now you can count how many of these promises were actually fulfilled.
as for people seeing through the so-called designs of the Dravidian parties,well, they still dominate the landscape and you and I know the vote share of non-Dravidian parties in TN…so i dont know what you mean by people ‘seeing’ through the designs. If the Dravidian parties celebrate Iftar and not Diwali, there is a reason for that. Read through their history and principles and you will know. I am sure you wont.
whether you agree to those principles is secondary (i dont) but they have never stopped anyone from going to temples. They havent ostracised and condemned anyone, who doesnt follow their principles, as non-Tamils or anti-nationals. They live by their principles and they let you live by your own. they always give you that space. Can the same be said of Modi/BJP & co?
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hari
August 19, 2020
Srinivas absolutely, with a pathetic opposition both in parliament and in media (all types) the ruling government is able to get away on a lot of issues. The opposition is playing right into the BJP’s hands by calling anything bad that BJP does as bad about Hinduism. As long as opposition plays that tape they will be more than happy to take it. Even here in this blogspace so many people conflate BJP with hinduism as if both are synonyms.
BJP will milk the Hindu-Muslim cow as long it pays them dividends. It is not as if they are inventing this newly, the congress and other parties have been doing this for ages and now BJP does it more ruthlessly with lots of money/muscle power. DMK has been milking the anti-hindi cow since 1960’s and still there are takers of it among the most educated among the Indians (the Tamizhans)
As some one who has lived in UP and still have friends/relatives there, I can safely tell you for every cattle lynching story there is an unreported cattle smugglers killing the owners of the cattle story. Both are reprehensible.
“if a crime is committed by a Muslim, there is a hurry to project his muslimness on the criminal” – depending on what media you read this will be different.
Criminals wiping their histories to become politician is nothing new. Popularly YSR had so many charges against him. My local corporator is a local gunda first before he jumped to real estate and then to politics. This is the story every where. So to answer your question – “Why do so many “Hindus” support him.” – he delivers on his promises to the UP people, the day he doesn’t deliver he will be voted out. And the other options that people have are much more pathetic like the Mayawati and the Mulayams. The congress is no where in picture in UP. Opposition’s favorite didi is no less a gunda herself.
As a nation we have lost on the sense of proportion, we form opinions based on twitter trends (which can be bought), there is no place for the nadu nilai nakkigal (as the people in both the spectrum call those who are in centre).
Most of the comments have nothing to do with the original blog (which had no head or no tail – no offence meant)
Peace out.
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Anu Warrier
August 19, 2020
@ns karthik:
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
Insert Indian equivalents of your choice. Does anyone really think it will stop with the Muslims?
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TambiDude
August 19, 2020
Anyone interested in knowing the antics of visesh samudai, please read this book
Charming , very charming.
Currently I am reading this book and I see why India elects Modi Shah and Yogi.
2024 will be even bigger victory for Modi than 2019.
Liberals, sipping chai and listening to S D Burman’s music just stay in US only.
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Heisenberg
August 19, 2020
“I start to think, are we ilichavayis? Tolerance is a two-way street. ”
Your post makes it sound like Hindus have been marginalised in their own country and living by themselves while the muslims behave same way be it arab country or India.
The problem is when only the sound of Azaan bothers you and not the loudspeaker noise of mariamman songs (in aadi) or the fanaticism displayed in the name of ganesh chaturthi.
Being from TN, I had the misfortune of being in mumbai once during the ganesh chaturthi. There were pandals in every colony/street corners and loud music was going on till late night (this was in 2013 and lungi dance was on the loop). When the day for immersion of ganesh idols came, I was scared to witness it on the streets. This was no bhakti. Scores of fanatics flexing their ‘political’ muscles to show other groups their place in this society.
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Heisenberg
August 19, 2020
To add on,
A group of people were directly involved in inciting religious riots and razing down a mosque. In a normally functioning country, these people would have been prosecuted as terrorists. But we not just let it slip legally, we have elected them to the highest post of this country. Speaks a lot about our secularism.
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Enigma
August 19, 2020
@Heisenberg, I agree completely. BJP should have been banned when they brought down the Babri mosque. I also admire Mulayam Singh and Laloo Yadav for the courage they showed in defending the mosque and controlling the religious riots.
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Enna koduka sir pera
August 19, 2020
@KS – “The built-up resentment is getting a cathartic release these days, albeit in a relatively controlled manner (barring some unfortunate anamolies like lynchings)”
Cathartic release? It is uncontrolled display of power and supremacy that is happening. What is this culture that we want to preserve while marginalizing/violently acting on others? The culture we want to preserve is the numerous philosophical treatises that exist in Hinduism for understanding life and not the discriminatory practices of caste and food preferences.. Is anyone who wants to ‘preserve’ the culture getting into reforming the current state of Hinduism? And how is this getting back at Muslims anyway different from the behavior exhibited by the oppressive Muslim emperors in India? And are we going to absolve the fact that Hindu kingdoms fought among each other, killed each other, looted each other and also established bases in South East Asia? Where do we get the idea that Hinduism is the most tolerant religion from? Kingdoms in the past have functioned with the idea of destroying and looting another and establishing their principles. What about the time before Hinduism came to India? What about the Adivasis – the original inhabitants and their culture – which is not based on Hinduism? Didn’t Hinduism erode their culture?
I would like to point out that cultures have always been evolving and the existence of one likely came at the cost of destroying another. So, there is no need to take victimhood and consequently get revenge for something that happened several centuries back. I would totally support you if the Muslims were currently threatening the existence of Hinduism in this country, but that’s not the case. So, why feel victimized and act against them? A more positive and integrative way to look at this is to bring reformation to Hinduism to address the inequalities that have come with the caste system, while also focusing on the philosophical aspects rather than infringe on personal liberties like people’s food habits, etc.
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Madan
August 19, 2020
“I also admire Mulayam Singh and Laloo Yadav for the courage they showed in defending the mosque and controlling the religious riots.” – Coincidentally, I was discussing this today with my father. I said how can we blame politicians when people rewarded Mulayam Singh by voting him out and bringing in Kalyan Singh who openly admits to journalists he lied to PNR that he would protect the mosque when he had no intention to. The choice was already made in the 90s. It was BJP that had to mutate and mutate, while the Grand Old Party got weaker and weaker, until finally it could ascend to power with a comprehensive mandate. I do also feel the Congress missed a trick by not capitalising on the Allahabad HC verdict which distributed the land three way. It was a sensible compromise and they should have managed the SC and got it upheld. But they were already in a once bitten twice shy mode after Rajiv’s disastrous attempts to court the Hindu vote had backfired in the late 80s.
Speaking of, I also respect VP Singh a lot even if the quality of his judgment was often suspect. He was in an alliance with BJP and still took a stand against the Rath Yatra. Think about how politicians, on any side of the aisle, of any ideology, would do that today. So forget about the Shastris and Sardar Patels, we do not even have leaders of the integrity of VP Singh anymore and that speaks volumes.
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Srinivas R
August 19, 2020
KS – Heisenberg and Enna Kodukka sir have said a few things I wanted to say. Adding to that..
Culture and religion are important for me and I do what I can to pass it on to my son. Also participate in cultural/ religious activities with like minded groups. Where i differ is the conviction that somehow Hinuds are demonized / marginalized in our own country. If I look around, in every govt or pvt organization, Hindus, UC Hindus mostly are in the most influential positions. This flies in the face of the “Hindus are in danger” narrative. Also Christianity and Islam have been in India since at least 12th century( i am just guessing here).If 800 years of monotheist religions, expansionist methods have failed, I don’t see any danger to Hinduism nor any reason for holding on to the anger.
As one of the previous comments said, pre- british India was full of battles between kingdoms of all religions. Rajput kings aligning with Mughals, Scindias aligning with British against LaxmiBhai, Deccan rulers aligning with British against Tipu Sultan, Shivaji attacking Kempagowda etc. But you onl see it through the prism of Muslims against Hindus. No doubt forcible conversions happened, but that was not the only thing. It was battle for political power and access to resources and monarchs of all religions were guilty of plunder.
About conversions it self- as long as there is caste discrimination in Hinduism, conversion can’t be avoided. Religion, for most people, is a crutch a support system, to navigate through the ups and downs of life. When that very same crutch is used to beat up people and isolate them, you can’t blame them if they chose another religion, it’s flaws not withstanding. Of course, govt still has the right, ability and support to pass a law to stop coercive conversions. It has all the laws in place to prevent caste discrimination, but the society at large has to change.
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gnanaozhi
August 19, 2020
@anu there is not a single law passed by any BJP govt in any state or centre that can even remotely begin to compare with the Raj laws the real Nazis passed in 1933 and then 35.
So please let’s leave the FUD aside.
If anything the worst Islamophobic govt India has had was Indira’s when her dear Son Sanjay,
1) butchered Muslims in the heart of Delhi (and not a single Indian media outlet covered it)
2) mass sterilised more Muslims than any mass sterilisation campaign in history.
Facts are important.
In general though, this is a very one sided history and seeks to shift agency from Islam itself.
Facts are that Islam by design is Intolerant (look up the relevant Quranic injunctions on Shirk – Murty worship).
Mr Waugh for example talks about how the Taliban came into power.
No, they didn’t accidentally come into power but created by the GID and ISI (GID is Saudi intelligence) as a counter to the more moderate Massoud lead Northern Alliance. The Pakistanis and Saudis knew they were propping up a violent Deobandi group and were okay with that.
Before the Taliban 90% of the ISI controlled arms flows (and money from GID) flew into the hands of Hezb E Islami. Hekmatiyar was a lunatic, butchered civilians by the 10’s of thousands but a devout Muslim ergo the Saudis and Pakis were comfortable channelling 100’s of millions of Dollars.
Who would you blame here? The Americans? Or the Pakistanis and Saudis?
Vietnam too got billions in military aid, you don’t see radical Vietnamese Buddhist insurgencies now do you?
Mr Waugh also seems to miss out the flow of petrodollars that funded the exponential rise of Wahabbi Islam. Wahabbi Islam for the uninitiated thinks regular Islam is weak sauce and even wages war against non Wahabbi Muslims when no non Muslims are to be found. Think ISIS (though that’s from the close in ideology Deobandi school)
Kepel in his Jihad estimates that upwards of $100 bn has been spent by the Saudi state since the grand mosque siege.
Take Pakistan alone as an example, from 50 madrasas in 1947 to a whopping 10,000 by 1985 (90% of it funded by Saudi money), these madrassas were the recruiting grounds for jihadists.
This “Islam has no role in the violence that plagues it from birth” is just ridiculous levels of escapism.
Real reform can’t happen unless agency is assigned.
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Heisenberg
August 19, 2020
It’s amazing how people have the ability to spot the worst things of other religion but have the delusion that their religion is of peace and tolerance only.
Adding to ancient hindu kingdoms invading and exploiting each other, there have also been instances of violence between shaivites-vaishnavites, shaivites-jains. To name a famous bloodshed, hundreds/thousands of jains were massacred near madurai after gnanasambandhar won a word duel. How is this tolerance?
And not to forget the gradient inequality in hinduism and thousands of years of exploitation of people below their varna, just on the basis of their birth. How is hindutva/hindu rashtra any different from wahabi Islam? Except the technicalities, ideology is the same.
@ks
//Avanga aadadha aattama? Inime namma time.//
Wonder how would you feel if oppressed section of hindus say the same thing to upper caste
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gnanaozhi
August 19, 2020
The Global Conflict tracker published by CFR is my start point to all those who allege US and actions of others gave rise to Islamophobia.
There are 5 critical conflicts, 2 of these involve Islam on one side.
There are 12 Significant conflicts, 9/12 involve Muslims on one side, 7 of these 9 involve Muslims on both sides of the conflicts.
There are 9 limited interest conflicts, 7/9 has Muslims on one side, 5 involve Muslims on both sides.
In summation of the 26 major conflicts in the world at this point, 18 (or 70%) involves Islam. 12/26 (46%) involves Muslims on both sides of the conflict.
And people are arguing Islam is not at fault or should not be questioned and that Islamophobia is misplaced?
Now lets look at more data,
In 2000 there were approx 1,800 Terror attacks (big and small) globally. 60% of these was caused by Islamist Jihadis.
In 2015 this was upto 14,000, 90% of these was by Islamist Jihadis.
And people wonder why there is a rise in Islamophobia.
Unless hard questions are posed on the faith, the faith will not reform. Blaming Islamic violence on a 100 different bogeymen from “Hindutva” to “Fascist Buddhism” to the CIA only takes away agency from Islam itself, feeds into the victimhood complex and will cause the current number of 14,000 attacks a year to 50,000 soon enough and people will still be wondering why this inherently Intolerant faith is looked on with fear and distrust.
And no, questioning Islam doesn’t make one a anti Muslim person, they are very different things
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KS
August 19, 2020
@SrinivasR:
–“as long as there is caste discrimination in Hinduism, conversion can’t be avoided.”
You bring up an important point. In fact, one of the reasons I support Hindutva is precisely this. All along, our caste faultlines have been cunningly exploited to undermine our religion as a whole, and we as a whole have been helpless because of our guilt. But Hindutva could help fix this. If the ideology has to grow, it will need the full support of the bulk of the lower castes, which in turn would give them a lot of negotiating power and influence. It would be forced to plug this obvious caste weakness, and take the lower castes along.
Am I being too optimistic or naive? Maybe, but this is a practical strategy that could work. As a society, we’ve tried so many legal and other attempts to mitigate the caste problem, but petty self-interest of different groups has sustained the problem. But now, we have a larger goal and a clearer enemy, and also, Hindutva groups have a degree of religious authority as well. So if we can use this opportunity to empower the lower castes (at the cost of undermining Muslims and Christians) I would consider that a good tradeoff. After all, we are guilty and owe a lot to lower castes, but we owe nothing to Islam or Christianity. As a society, we need to realistically set priorities and allow for tradeoffs, instead of indulging in utopian dreams of absolute equality.
–“I don’t see any danger to Hinduism”
Maybe the danger of immediate extinction is exaggerated for effect. The underlying sentiment is that the battlefield of religions is very asymmetric. On the one hand, you have religions that, by design, aim to spread and root out other beliefs, and have done this successfully and repeatedly in the past. While most native Indian traditions are by nature theologically soft and rooted in your localized environment. The former will keep being a menace to the latter. This idea of “all religions are equal and should be treated the same” will only empower the aggressive religions to eat away at the softer religions. And we have every right to mobilize to stave off this nuisance.
–“pre- british India was full of battles between kingdoms of all religions”
You’re totally right, and I am under no delusion that we were this golden Vedic state of peace and perfection until Muslim barbarians came and turned it into hell. Of course, much was governed by politics too, but that is not very relevant. When it came to religion, our native kings were largely permissive, and even otherwise, I personally see it as internal churn. As opposed to wholesale oppression of all our traditions by Muslims. While all kingdoms played the game of thrones, religious atrocities were markedly significant for Islamic rulers. Any ancient temple you visit, you’ll see defaced idols, or learn about how some Islamic ruler or general smashed the idols and massacred the believers. These stories can get really upsetting. These were your ancestors in your native land, speaking your language, who were slaughtered because they subscribed to the beliefs developed here.
Take the Ram mandir, for instance. It is common knowledge that Islamists intentionally targeted our sacred spots, tore down our shrines, and built their mosques and monuments on top of them just to spite our beliefs “see, your gods can’t do anything”. And today we have to live with the eyesores on our most cherished spots. Of all of these, just to get back one most sacred spot, we have had to mukkify for decades, if not longer. And we face the kind of scrutiny, doubt and mocking that is never accorded to other beliefs over their sacred spots. Ideally, if the Muslim groups had magnanimously given back even a portion of the spot for a Ram temple, it would have been a gesture of goodwill to let bygones be bygones. The fact that people still gripe about the destruction of a disused mosque built by an invader to spite us, is fuel for justified mistrust and resentment, and “Kashi Mathura baaki hai”.
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KS
August 19, 2020
@Heisenberg:
–“Wonder how would you feel if oppressed section of hindus say the same thing to upper caste”
I would fully support that, and I wrote all about it in the comments section of BR’s article on Draupadi and caste. Historical hurt, whoever be the aggressors and victims, must come out and be addressed, instead of plastering over with facile declarations of equality and harmony. That does not mean it should be addressed with violence necessarily, but there must be systemic corrections.
I have addressed your points about our internal quarrels and problems with caste in the previous comment addressed to SrinivasR. I have no delusions that we are perfect. Even with our obvious faults, I do believe we are relatively better than abrahamics though. Any equivalence of our faults with theirs is disingenuous.
But irrespective of who’s good or bad, we are who we are, and they are outsiders. There is nothing wrong in our being partial to our own ethos and civilization. We don’t have to pretend to be above our own roots. We should be critical of ourselves, acknowledge our faults and past injustices, reform ourselves for the better. But we don’t have to see Islam and Christianity as our equals in our land after everything that has happened over centuries.
–“only the sound of Azaan bothers you and not the loudspeaker noise of mariamman songs (in aadi) or the fanaticism displayed in the name of ganesh chaturthi”
Yes, Mariamman songs and Ganesh Chaturthi do not bother me. In fact, I enjoy participating in those celebrations if possible. If I am unable to, I still passively take delight in the fact that people are joyously celebrating our culture freely. This whole “if azaan is bad, so is ours” idea I disagree with. Its upto us, as a whole, what we prefer, and there is no inviolable rule that we must treat everything equally.
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KS
August 19, 2020
@nskarthik77:
“Violence is violence. who does it, what religion he belongs, what -ism he subscribes to, what is the history of that -ism doesnt matter.”
It does matter. For instance, if a lower caste person is killed by an upper caste, the caste angle matters. Crimes cannot be seen in isolation, but in context of history and politics. Otherwise you cannot understand the roots or hope to resolve the underlying issues. Besides, you yourself said cow lynching is Hindu terror, so you are not treating it as just violence, but ideologically rooted violence.
But yes, whatever be the motive, such crimes must be nipped in the bud, and the culprits punished, of course. Extrajudicial murders are bad, period. My objection is to your extrapolation of such events to form a narrative of Hindu terror, which I believe is an exaggeration, at least vis-a-vis abrahamic terror. Here is where a sense of proportion is necessary. If Hindus (or any other Indian religious group) were intrinsically capable of any significant level of violence, our history would be very different. Have some trust in your own people.
@AnuWarrier:
That “poem” sounds very deep and profound, but has been overused now, and can be applied to anything. If you kill a mosquito, next you’d kill a rat, and then a dog, and finally people? This is the slippery slope argument which can be used against any rule. Only in very rare cases will things escalate to apocalyptic scenarios. In reality, most systems stabilize and there are inbuilt resistance mechanisms against excesses.
For all the hyper-paranoid fear-mongering, we are still a democracy, with various lobbies and power centers, apart from the constitution. And there is certainly visible resistance against certain government actions. As for the supposed undermining of Muslims, its being allowed to happen because seemingly the majority of people agree with it. You may not, but that doesn’t mean we’re in a dystopia.
Personally, for me the poem would go thus (apologies, I’m no poet):
First they came for the Muslims
And I did not speak out
Because I don’t care about Muslims
Then they came for the Christians
And I did not speak out
Because I don’t care about Christians
But if they come for any other religious/ethnic group, be it Sikhs, Jains, Parsis, Buddhists, Jews, atheists, adivasis,
I will speak out,
Because they are us.
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KS
August 19, 2020
Anyway, thanks all for a nice discussion, I think I’ve said what I broadly wanted to say. Initially I was hesitant to join in because brangan’s blog was one of the few virgin spaces free of acrimonious right-left catfights (and I’m not sure why G Waugh keeps writing posts here on topics unrelated to cinema).
I totally understand that you might have various levels of disagreements with my viewpoints. But the comments were refreshingly free of accusations, and all credit goes to brangan and the kind of people his blog attracts.
KadaKumar over and out!
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Srinivas R
August 19, 2020
Of the many things you have said, Hindutva idealogy being a way to eleiminate casteism sounds naive. Hindutva, at least from what I have seen, is essentially about bringing back the glory days of Hinduism, return to traditions etc. So casteism is very much at the root of it. It’s a minor thing, but did you notice how Ravi Jadeja proudly flaunts his “Rajput Boy” status or how Karni Sena is vocally supported by Rajput leaders. Also how PMK an openly casteist party that is strongly against inter caste marriages is aligning with Hindutva.These openly casteist forces form the core support base of Hindutva idealogy.
I will again go back to my idea. Yes, there are inconvinient truths about montheistic religions especially Islam. Yes, we have to counter them. A violent counter narrative of revenge and Hindu supremacism is not the solution. The closer we get to law and order being unbiased, legislative powers being used properly to curb any excesses and guilty facing the consequences irrespective of their religion, the better it is. Else the Hindutva goons will play the same role as Islamist forces in muslim countries. We only have to look at Pakistan. They weren’t so eceonomically backward or theocratic till 1970s. Slowly, they let the reigion genie run amok and religious sentiments influence decision making.They have reached a stage where they have to run around with begging bowls and have no soft power whatsoever.
Ultimately our stability as a society, including preserving our culture rests on sustained economic growth, specifically sustained growth of per capita GDP, else all the gods in the world can’t save us. A sustained economic growth is possible only in societies where religion is kept at an arms distance from decision making and not on a pedestal.
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k1rithika
August 19, 2020
“you are entitled to it in a country that was a democracy till 2014” – nskarthik77.
Let me start by saying I’m neither pro-BJP nor pro-congress and I have very limited knowledge about religion/politics. I genuinely want to understand the above statement. Why was our country a democracy only till 2014? When did the anti-sikh riots happen? And what about the Kashmiri pandits? A commenter here pointed out that for every cattle lynching incident, there is also a cattle owner killing incident that is not covered in media. I believe voices were being suppressed, according to convenience, in earlier governments as well. So why is our country no longer democratic post 2014?
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Honest Raj
August 19, 2020
Srinivas R:Hindutva idealogy being a way to eleiminate casteism sounds naive.
Absolutely. The ideology was born not out of love/compassion for fellow Hindus but out of their hatred towards Muslims, Christians and Communists. Ask any RSS worker (the ones at grassroots level) about what has the Hindutva movement done to mitigate caste discrimination/untouchability, and you won’t get any answer (of course, the RSS runs schools in the tribal areas of Chhattisgarh/Jharkhand but that’s just to stop the conversions). Because they are very much aware that they’re not going to reap any benefit out of any kind of ‘activism’ in this regard. If anything, they might end up antagonizing the upper castes. Maybe, that’s why think it’s better to play it safe by maintaining the status quo.
These openly casteist forces form the core support base of Hindutva idealogy.
Not surprisingly, the biggest support for the casteist comedy Draupathi came from the Hindutva camp.
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gnanaozhi
August 19, 2020
@heisnberg, all you are doing is bringing in a false equivalence, based on a house of cards.
“It’s amazing how people have the ability to spot the worst things of other religion but have the delusion that their religion is of peace and tolerance only.”
I as a Hindu condemn the caste system, many many Hindu Indians do, it is being slowly reformed out of existence. The average dalit today lives a far more equal life than even the dalit of 30 years ago. I will embrace any Dalit, my mother worships a dalit domestic help (she passed away and my mom has her photo next to my granny’s)
Now ask 10 Muslims to accept idol worship. Ask them to even step in a temple and eat prashad. Why has Islamic violence exponentially increased year on year from 1970 on? Why do 70% of the Muslims believe in Sharia law?
One religion is capable of reform and is always reforming, the other regresses year on year.
That’s the difference here.
“Adding to ancient hindu kingdoms invading and exploiting each other, there have also been instances of violence between shaivites-vaishnavites, shaivites-jains. To name a famous bloodshed, hundreds/thousands of jains were massacred near madurai after gnanasambandhar won a word duel. How is this tolerance?”
Nonsense. No one denies war in ancient India, but it didn’t include wholesale genocide. Unless your history source is Dasavataram the movie, shaivaites and vaishnavites didn’t butcher each other in the millions. The join pandyan episode is a proven myth. No contemporary Jain, Buddhist or even Hindu source records this, and the records come from shaivaite sources written 4 centuries after the fact.
List just 5 cases of wholesale slaughter of civilians by why dharmic King and I will list 500 by Islamic ones.
This is the same bogus argument defenders of Nazi Germany use. That “the allies also committed atrocities ergo they are the same”, except you will reject this as patent Nonsense yet you do the same here.
And not to forget the gradient inequality in hinduism and thousands of years of exploitation of people below their varna, just on the basis of their birth. How is hindutva/hindu rashtra any different from wahabi Islam? Except the technicalities, ideology is the same.
Firstly many new evidences are supporting the theory that the caste system was deeply stratified by the British (see Dirks’, Bayly, Cohen etall), and be that as it may, it is bad but every single contemporary society had inequalities and a stratified social order. Let’s not pretend as though Xtianity or Islam was some utopia
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Honest Raj
August 19, 2020
About Vinayaka Chaturthi, I grew up in Trichy and have fond memories of the festival being celebrated with pomp and splendour. It was not until recently that I got to know the dark side of it.
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Madan
August 19, 2020
“When did the anti-sikh riots happen? And what about the Kashmiri pandits?” – I would prefer that this argument weren’t a mere whataboutism. Nevertheless, in essence, I feel the same way when people say Modi is great as when they talk in glowing terms about Rajiv Gandhi (anti Sikh, Shah Bano, opening the gates of Babri) or Indira (I mean, emergency). In fact, I have heard people who lived then justify emergency and it’s very hard to convince me that that was any different in terms of perception management than the phenomenon of people nodding when Modi and his acolytes say demo was a good thing. The common thread running through all of these is Indian voters love being led down the cliff like lemmings again and again. History repeats. Modi only feels like an aberration because of two and a half decades of ‘weak’ coalition govts.
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Honest Raj
August 19, 2020
When did the anti-sikh riots happen? And what about the Kashmiri pandits?
Sure, it happened during the Congress rule. But atleast they came forward and apologised for it (they even made a Sikh the PM). As for the exodus of KP, I believe Congress had no role in it (in terms of the ruling party’s role, it’s not comparable to the 2002 Gujarat pogrom orchestrated by the Sangh). It was the BJP-supported VP Singh government that was in power at the time.
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Anu Warrier
August 19, 2020
As for the supposed undermining of Muslims, its being allowed to happen because seemingly the majority of people agree with it.
You just proved my point. So did a majority of Germans seemingly agree with the undermining of Jews.
And yes, the cannibalisation will continue – your favourite party is already deciding who is a Hindu. And who is Indian.
So a Bengali Hindu who eats fish during Pujo (which is not Navratri, by the way) is not ‘Hindu’. Or those who eat beef. Or those who don’t pray the way the very North-centric party prays. If you don’t speak Hindi, you’re not Indian. Good luck with that one in the southern states, by the way.
Your pet party’s idea of Hinduism is not mine, and I am a Hindu – born one, will die one.
This ‘One Hinduism’ homogenisation is going to result in the Balkanisation of India, mark my words. You cannot take a pluralistic society and turn it into a homogenous entity just by suppressing all dissenting opinions.
If you cannot see the devastation this has already caused, is causing and will continue to cause in India’s cultural ethos, that’s on you.
In any case, I’m not trying to ‘win’ an argument here. In fact, I’m not even going to argue further. You have your opinion on the ongoing political movement. I have mine.
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Anu Warrier
August 19, 2020
Any ancient temple you visit, you’ll see defaced idols, or learn about how some Islamic ruler or general smashed the idols and massacred the believers.
Just one more counterpoint, and I’m out:
You do know that Hindu kings destroyed Buddhist vihaaras and built temples over them, right? That Buddhist monks were killed for practising their religion? Want to turn those temples over to the Buddhists to rebuild their places of worship?
I thought not.
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Madan
August 19, 2020
” But atleast they came forward and apologised for it (they even made a Sikh the PM).” – I don’t think that’s enough/comes across as a token apology when you make Kamal Nath the CM in spite of a perfectly eligible alternative (Jyotiraditya). Also, Rahul Gandhi or MMS saying today that the riots were wrong is meaningless as they had nothing to do with it. But Pitroda’s arrogant “jo ho gaya so ho gaya” remark is closer to the sentiment of the original orchestrators of the ’84 riots.
For now, I am leaving here this article by Mukul Kesavan which makes it clear that the communal rhetoric against Sikhs used by the Congress in the 1984 elections was as shameful as the BJP’s against Muslims in 2014.
https://www.telegraphindia.com/opinion/what-about-1984-pogroms-and-political-virtue/cid/283596
The most damning sentence quoted: “I remember a Congress advertisement that unsubtly suggested that Indians ought to vote for the party of firm governance if their taxi-drivers made them nervous, this, remember, at a time when Sikhs drove taxis in large numbers in Indian cities.”
I believe the lack of TV coverage other than that controlled by the govt itself protected it from facing the full onslaught of criticism. Godhra was smack in the period when TV media was reasonably non-partisan. By the time of Delhi 2020, media has become so partisan we don’t know what to believe and we are back to the pre-90s ‘post truth’ days.
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Aman Basha
August 19, 2020
@AnuWarrier: Oh but according to this interpretation, these were internal conflicts between people and Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism all come under the umbrella to Santana Dharma. In fact, a version about the origin of Sikhism I heard was that Sikhs were Hindus trained to fight the Muslim invaders.
Regarding destruction of religious places of worship, I believe it was more the need to project superiority over the rival ruler who would be the benefactor of said place of worship. I remember reading about some idol being brought to a Sun Temple and installed in a subservient capacity to the main deity there by the ruler and so on. This is no way discounting the massive destruction done by the likes of Ghazni.
We can have a substantial discussion but there’s always the annoying possibility of being thrown Subramaniam Swamy-ishtyle conspiracy theories like his rehashed “3 Khans are ISI agents” spiel.
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k1rithika
August 19, 2020
Thanks for the reply Madan & Honest Raj
Madan – I can assure you, it’s not mere whataboutism. The Godhra incident was not okay, Emergency was not okay neither was the exodus of KP, irrespective of which party was ruling at that time. Did the same sentiment prevail during these periods, especially during Emergency or Sanjay Gandhi’s mass sterilization program? I don’t know and I want to know. Because I see lot of people making this argument now – that the country is no longer a democracy.
At the risk of sounding repetitive, I’m not pro-BJP or pro-Modi and I’m not making a case for the BJP/Modi. I’m simply trying to understand what is the cause for this argument.
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KS
August 19, 2020
@AnuWarrier:
This fear of forced Hindu homogenization is just your projection and paranoia. It arises because we compare ourselves with abrahamics and panic that we’ll become like them. But our religion is fundamentally structured differently. I claim that is not a possibility since there is no one Hindu central power which can bully the rest. Hinduism is an umbrella of local traditions, and the Hindi-Hindu boogeyman you talk about too is just another local tradition. Since there is no significant power discrepancy among different Hindu communities (or even the gods- hariyum sivanum onnu, ariyadhavar vayila mannu), no one narrative can sweep the rest. When we talk about going back to tradition, its going back to the tradition of your family, your lineage, your region or language (there is no one single tradition).
Hindutva is mainly about standing up to and knocking down the abrahamics a peg, so that all our homegrown religions can thrive in peace. So when even Sikhs or Jains aren’t antagonized or undermined, there is no question of undermining our various Hindu traditions or stomping down on the plurality. If something that misguided is ever attempted even slightly, it will automatically fail by itself.
As for Hindu kings destroying Buddhist viharas, there’s very little record of that even in Buddhist texts themselves, and is just thrown around to stop us from talking about destroyed temples. I am sure it must have happened to some extent, but both ways (Buddhist kings like Ashoka too did the same to temples and slaughtered Hindu priests). Irrespective of what may have happened, thats our internal squabble. Relatively smaller scale clashes between homegrown traditions; inevitable aberrations in a long history of symbiotic coexistence (most kings patronized both shramanic and vedic brahmanic scholars, there is so much interplay in their beliefs and much in common in their mythologies). We don’t have to equate that with foreign invaders razing both Hindu temples and Buddhist viharas.
As to whether we should return the viharas to Buddhists, I don’t know. We’ll cross that bridge if we get to it. If Buddhists come forward with records and demand return of their sacred spots which we have desecrated, we can sort it out then. As of now, your hypotheticals are pointless, and you don’t have to speak on behalf of the Buddhists or other alleged aggrieved parties just for the sake of argument. I will speak for my religion and my temples, and am not trying to be some global arbiter of justice for all historic wrongs.
@SrinivasR and @HonestRaj:
I know it might sound naive to hope that Hindutva would “solve” the caste problem entirely. But its worth a shot, considering all other righteous attempts have had limited success. They don’t have to love the lower castes or share your noble motives, but it is simple realpolitik that they’d have to bring the lower castes into the fold just to shore up strength and plug the leaks leading to conversions and disunity. The lower castes can leverage this power and make rightful demands in return, and rise into the mainstream over time. It is more empowering than just being a vote bank, since its a paradigm shift from the religious perspective too, and would send a stronger message against caste, sanctioned by religious gatekeepers. Too hopeful?
Also, I think it is unfair to say the RSS has done nothing regarding caste. Its progressive and proactive approach to caste is an integral part of its success story, one that is acknowledged even by its critics and haters. Of course, it could do more (all of us could), and I think it will have to, both for ideological and practical reasons.
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nskarthik77
August 20, 2020
@kirithika – u display all the characteristics of a BJP supporter, same whataboutery, same Kashmiri Pandits story (i know its true but you are choosing a period in Kashmiri history that suits your narrative, read the history of last 400 years and you will see that Hindus were no better in killing Muslims in kashmir). in fact, if you start quoting history to justify your opinion, there would be no end to it as history, depending on how far back you go, is full of people of all religions behaving like barbarians which was a sign of the times. So you wouldnt want to go there…and if you still dont understand what has changed in a democracy that was India since 2014, maybe you arent looking enough.
Look around you. take any field – movies, courts, food, industry, politics, language etc etc and notice the shrinking of choice and opinions. if you still dont realise that they are making you think and do things they feel is right (not what ‘you’ feel), i would pity you cos when u do realise it one fine day, it will be too late. even a simple open and shut suicide case like that of SSR is being played out into a huge drama involving the largest court in the land not for justice, not for anti-nepotism but to make you believe that all the existing structures around you in each and every field are fakes and ones to be hated . Once you start hating everything that existed, it is easy for them to build their own new narrative of what is good for you and take you into their own make-believe world. you wont even see the cliff coming up…over and out.
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Enigma
August 20, 2020
@ Madan, I am not sure about V.P. Singh. He let the rath yatra roll on for about two months, leaving behind death and destruction in its path. It was only Laloo Yadav who stopped it.
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Prakash
August 20, 2020
I am really happy that members of this blog can have a mature discussion on race without name calling or abuse, thereby giving space for all to share their opinions. Even if different members have a different vision of what religion needs to be in this country we are respectful to all religions. It shows that most indians are secular. Having said that, BJP and hindutva is very dangerous in its present form. Advocating Hindu welfare is different, trying to bash Muslims is different. Making nutcases like adityanath and pragyi thakur as elected representatives shows the direction the party wants to take. The lack of an alternative to BJP has enabled to set it’s agenda. Let’s hope future govts concentrate more on governance rather than cultural hot potatoes. Having said that I also think many members are dismissive of people who have real concerns of Islam or Christianity. Criticising a religion is different from demonising it’s followers. Both can be mutually exclusive. Ask yourself- if your kids spend time with a muslim or a Christian getting to know about that religion would you be comfortable?? Will you have that same concern if he is interested in Buddhism, Jainism?? Maybe you are all a better person than I am. But I will be sacred. I wish Islam confronts it’s contradictions and reformed, so that people like me can feel comfortable about its tecahings.
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TambiDude
August 20, 2020
“Making nutcases like adityanath and pragyi thakur as elected representatives shows the direction the party wants to take. ”
Pragya was elected by residents of Bhopal. BJP could only field , the voting was still decided by Hindus of Bhopal.
Pragya Thakur was given Bhopal for a reason. She had to compete against Digvijay Singh who jailed her under framed up charge and could never prove it.
She got 100% of Hindu votes in Bhopal. Take that. That shows the hindu anger.
I am amazed by the wokes in this blog who speak patronizingly as if Indian citizens can not think. Modi won 2019 even bigger than 2014. He may win 2024 even bigger than 2019.
What you should focus on is why India is voting Modi with such a margin.
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Prakash
August 20, 2020
@Thambi dude With the support Modi had anybody could have won in Bhopal. Still BJP nominated pragya thakur. Shows their agenda. People are stupid. We can see it in politicians with criminal records winning again and again. That doesn’t mean voters support crime or corruption.
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Prakash
August 20, 2020
Only when Modi leaves the stage, will we actually know how much of this electoral success is due to Modi and due to hindutva. I hope it’s the former. Even if it’s the latter, BJP has a vote share of 40%. So that doesn’t give the right to steamroll other people’s concerns. Much of this succes is also due to power concentrated in Hindi belt due to increased seat allocation in our Lok Sabha. This too shall pass.
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thoravazhakkan
August 20, 2020
People are voting for BJP for a reason. BJP fields Pragya Thauur for the reason that she can actually win. The case against her was made up. After all Digvijay Singh even blamed Hindu terror for Mumbai Nov, 2008. At the end of the day, BJP wants to drive a message, choose between Jihadi terror and imaginary Hindu terror. People clearly know which to choose in case you have to avoid 11/26 type attacks. Personally, I a very happy they putting up likes of Yogi Adityanath. Enough of pussyfooting of kaffirophobia where kaffirs are considered hell bound and dehumanized, with support of bigoted scriptures. Kaffirs have to be Islamophic and Heathenophobic. After all they are the ones who dehumanize us without provocation knowing fully well that secular folks will look elsewhere once they are paid. When there is provocation like this, right to retaliate comes along with it. Get used to it. No point whining if you cannot touch those scriptures which call us kaffirs. Guys like Yogi are the guys who would tell on the face go fix those scriptures first which calls us Kaffirs then come back pontificate on Islamophobia. Obviously guys who pontificate on Islamophobia won’t touch those scriptures preaching bigotry against those who disagree, because head will roll on the floor for blasphemy. Until you speak up against Kaffirophobia/Heathenophobia, don’t complain about Islamophobia, which is 100% justified response. We don’t want to hear that garbage which goes like two wrongs don’t make one right from guys who keep silent on purpose when the first wrong happens.
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Enna koduka sir pera
August 20, 2020
@KS – “As for Hindu kings destroying Buddhist viharas, there’s very little record of that even in Buddhist texts themselves, and is just thrown around to stop us from talking about destroyed temples. I am sure it must have happened to some extent, but both ways (Buddhist kings like Ashoka too did the same to temples and slaughtered Hindu priests). Irrespective of what may have happened, thats our internal squabble. Relatively smaller scale clashes between homegrown traditions; inevitable aberrations in a long history of symbiotic coexistence”
Tamil Sangam literature records many wars and bloodsheds among Jains, Buddhists, Shaivites and Vaishnavites. And there has been mutual destruction on both sides. I wonder how you are suddenly generous saying this is our internal squabble. Why is it difficult to show the same generosity now to the Muslims living? Aren’t they also one among us now? Why do you not want a symbiotic co-existence with them? Just because their religious origin is not a ‘homegrown tradition’. I will being the Adivasi point here – going by timeline, theirs would be more appropriate to be called a homegrown tradition because they were here before Hinduism was established. Therefore, it is a dangerous slope to designate a particular set of religions/cultures as homegrown traditions in a society which has, whether you like it or not, become a cocktail over centuries. If you want a Hindutva socieety, why still possess some states in the North East? Clearly they have their own traditions, which according to your classification, are not homegrown traditions.
Let’s please move beyond the barbarism of middle ages into a modern humanistic society. We can have co-symbiotic existence of multiple cultures side by side and live in harmony. When one rises its head and threatens to disturb the balance, then counter actions can be considered. Otherwise, revengeful acts for things that happened centuries back will make this world a bloody place.
@gnanaozhi – “Now ask 10 Muslims to accept idol worship. Ask them to even step in a temple and eat prashad. ” Symbiotic coexistence need not involve followers of one tradition accept the philosophies of another tradition. They can disagree, yet allow them to coexist without disparaging them.
Finally, I support reformist movements in all religious practices. No religion is above humanity and human rights – so be it eradication of caste discrimination, empowerment of Muslim women, pro-choice movements for the right to decide on abortion (‘disrespecting’ Catholic discourses), I am for reforming religions to make them more humane.
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Honest Raj
August 20, 2020
I don’t think that’s enough/comes across as a token apology when you make Kamal Nath the CM in spite of a perfectly eligible alternative (Jyotiraditya).
I feel it’s much more than a token apology. I’m not sure INC making MMS as the PM and BJP offering the presidency to Kalam (in the wake of 2002 riots) or to Ramnath Kovind (to show that they’re not anti-dalit) are comparable. Agree with you on Kamal Nath being asked to lead the party in MP. But then, I guess it’s a matter of internal politics. Contrary to the popular perception that INC is being controlled by the Nehru-Gandhi family, I believe senior guys like Kamal Nath and Ashok Gehlot wield some power in the party.
About the campaign, sure it’s vile but there’s a bit of difference between seeking votes in the name of preserving the nation’s unity (by alerting people against a separatist movement) and threatening a community that they would be shown their place if they don’t vote for them. Plus, Punjab has repeatedly elected Congress (both at the state and centre) even after the riots. Again, this is not to whitewash what happened in 1984 but all I’m saying is that Congress (atleast today’s party) is far from being a lesser evil than BJP when it comes to communalism.
BTW, this is from the same article which you shared:
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Honest Raj
August 20, 2020
The lower castes can leverage this power and make rightful demands in return, and rise into the mainstream over time.
Even the DMK, which started out as an anti-caste party, couldn’t do much in a relatively progressive state like TN. One of the reasons that they could never dominate the political landscape in south and west TN is that people view them as a pro-dalit party (this despite the fact that the biggest beneficiaries of the Dravidian movement are dominant OBCs themselves).
Its progressive and proactive approach to caste is an integral part of its success story, one that is acknowledged even by its critics and haters.
I’d love to know a bit more about their work and approach.
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Honest Raj
August 20, 2020
Did the same sentiment prevail during these periods, especially during Emergency or Sanjay Gandhi’s mass sterilization program? I don’t know and I want to know.
I wish I lived through the 70s. But people voted out INC (remember, Indira herself lost her seat) in the next elections. That says something, no?
Pragya was elected by residents of Bhopal. BJP could only field, the voting was still decided by Hindus of Bhopal.
Of course, you must be equally aware of the fact that Bhopal has always been a hotbed of Hindutva politics. It’s thanks to religious polarisation that Pragya Thakur was able to secure most Hindu votes (not because of her being a ‘sadhvi’/terror accused). Now, tell me why the BJP couldn’t even make a dent in a Hindu-majority state like TN (the state has close to 90 pc Hindus, which is much higher than the national average)?
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Srinivas R
August 20, 2020
Hitler won big too before third reich, that doesn’t make the germans idiots, just complicit in his holocaust.
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Honest Raj
August 20, 2020
The average dalit today lives a far more equal life than even the dalit of 30 years ago.
The credit for that should really go to the founding fathers of our nation. In the post-independent India, religious reformers have hardly done anything to uplift the lower castes. Second, by equating ‘non-dalit Hindus embracing dalits’ and ‘asking the Muslims whether they will accept idol worship or not’ what exactly are you trying to convey? Are you saying that Dalits are as much ‘outsiders’ as Muslims in Hinduism?
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Rajesh
August 20, 2020
I dream of waking up one fine day and there is no religion on Earth. What a glorious day that would be!
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k1rithika
August 20, 2020
nskarthik77 -“@kirithika – u display all the characteristics of a BJP supporter”. So, talking about KP automatically means that I display all the characteristics of a BJP supporter? Hmm…
And I did not get into the question of whether Hindus are better or Muslims are better. A crime is a crime, no matter who commits it. I personally do not believe in religion.
I’m not even going to get into the SSR case. It is being over-sensationalized, yes, but I do think it is not a open and shut case.
May be you are right, maybe I have to look around myself more. I hate the sycophancy that many of the Modi supporters display. I did not support poorly executed initiatives like DeMo or CAA. But this -“Once you start hating everything that existed, it is easy for them to build their own new narrative of what is good for you and take you into their own make-believe world. you wont even see the cliff coming up” I don’t think that’s going to happen. You may call me ignorant. Maybe I am. Time will tell. Anyway, I won’t be furthering this conversation anymore.
Peace!
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Madan
August 20, 2020
” was the exodus of KP, irrespective of which party was ruling at that time. Did the same sentiment prevail during these periods, especially during Emergency or Sanjay Gandhi’s mass sterilization program? I don’t know and I want to know. ” – I don’t know either because I wasn’t born during that time. I’d hope indeed that during Emergency at least, people thought of it as a threat to democracy. I still find the mandates given to IG in 1980 and to Rajiv in 1984 unpalatable. I know what the ‘mitigating factors’ were but there were factors likewise in 2014 and 2019 and I don’t see the difference – the mandates, in essence, were flawed. And 2014 the least so if anything, because at least it was a gamble. IG in 1980 was not a gamble and giving the largest ever mandate to somebody with very limited experience in govt for purely sentimental reasons (and hatred of Sikhs) was also a very poor decision. I agree that barring very few like Mukul Kesavan (who is also writing for a much more left leaning newspaper than the mainstream discourse), most of the well known English language journalists haven’t honestly reckoned with these mandates either. Perhaps if they had, more people would have recognised the signs at least in 2019, if not in 2014.
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TambiDude
August 20, 2020
“I dream of waking up one fine day and there is no religion on Earth. What a glorious day that would be!”
You will be beheaded in countries like Pakistan for saying this. And yet our liberals want us to be more accommodative towards them and will maintain total silence when it comes to atrocities in islamic countries.
By their actions, liberals deserve the contempt they have earned thru their hard work.
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Anu Warrier
August 20, 2020
and the Hindi-Hindu boogeyman you talk about too is just another local tradition.
Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan was the rallying cry of the RSS since the 1930s. It was encouraged by the British, who saw in it a way to foster division. But since the RSS / Hindu Mahasabha were then considered a fringe group, it didn’t get much traction.
I’m old enough to remember when the centre decided to impose Hindi on the states. Tamil Nadu hit back then, changing the time of the Tamil news to the same time that the Hindi news was being telecast on DD. If I remember right, it was the only state to do so.
or stomping down on the plurality. If something that misguided is ever attempted even slightly, it will automatically fail by itself.
I wish I were as sure as you. I spoke about the imposition of Hindi as one aspect of the homogenisation. (And you have to credit the BJP for consistency – Hindi, Hindu, Hindostan is still their rallying cry.) Kanimozhi recently tweeted about being asked if she were an Indian because she didn’t know Hindi. While I usually don’t pay attention to politicians’ complaints/tweets, I have seen this first-hand. At Kochi airport, year before last. The lady in front of me was asked something in Hindi by the security at the gate, and she didn’t understand. The response was precisely what Kanimozhi tweeted. A couple of us had to remind the guard that he was in Kerala and it was not necessary for us to know Hindi.
This is a TV debate around 6 years or so ago. This is their agenda, and it’s gaining traction even as we speak, with the recent push to throw out English.
And if the push continues, the South, North-East, and even the East will rebel.
You think I’m being paranoid. Perhaps I am. I would dearly love to be wrong. Only time will tell which of us is more right. And by then, I fear it might be too late.
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KS
August 20, 2020
@EnnaKodukaSirPera:
I admitted that it might be true that Buddhists, Jains, Shaivites etc. all fought each other at times. Given that we have lived together for millennia, some disagreements and clashes are inevitable. But it would be dishonest to exaggerate that to weave a larger narrative of disharmony. Our religions have all compromised with, influenced and enriched each other in many significant ways.
By homegrown, I mean traditions that developed in our environment by our people based on their experiences here. Not about which developed first, or whether its traditions are the same as mine. So the NorthEast traditions are as homegrown as the rest. Sikhism is relatively young, but it is as organically homegrown as Hinduism or Jainism. These religions anchor us to our ancestors and our native environment, with the mythologies referring to our rivers and mountains.
We as a people, in our land, have every right to be partial to our own, and have no obligation to treat all religions equally. We don’t have to play devil’s advocate against ourselves. Of course, we can choose to be magnanimous with other foreign religions too (like the Parsis or Jews) based on our cordial history with them. But we have the choice, and can choose to treat different religions differently, on the basis of their teachings and our history with them.
So why can I not accept the Muslims or Christians too as part of this family? For many reasons which I have repeated several times in this comment thread. I love the idea of harmonic coexistence between different religions, and we are naturally that way when it comes to most religions. But we would be fools to keep trusting Islam or Christianity given their supremacist teachings and their predatory history. It is their responsibility to make us trust them, and until then, they will be viewed with suspicion. This isn’t about revenge at all (if it was, things would have gotten gory long ago), but just about being vigilant. To repeat the heartless metaphor I used earlier, we are like a rich ecosystem of different religions coexisting in a symbiotic way, and Islam and Christianity are invasive species.
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Rahul
August 20, 2020
Can’t help but agree with KS. Thanks for Hindu Heart Emperor Balasaheb for kicking out south indians and north indians from Mumbai. We as a people, in our land, have every right to be partial to our own, and have no obligation to treat all ethnicities equally.
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thoravazhakkan
August 20, 2020
“You will be beheaded in countries like Pakistan for saying this. And yet our liberals want us to be more accommodative towards them and will maintain total silence when it comes to atrocities in islamic countries.”
Indeed guys are dishonest about this. In Islamic societies you get death penalty for this. Too bad they cannot call out Islam’s bigotry. Instead of dealing with that bigotry, people want no one to have religion. Islam has never had any problem whatsoever calling everyone who disagrees as kaffirs. This is why secularism is a total farce. It provides a backdoor entry for Islamic bigotry against kaffirs.
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TambiDude
August 20, 2020
“I’m old enough to remember when the centre decided to impose Hindi on the states. Tamil Nadu hit back then, changing the time of the Tamil news to the same time that the Hindi news was being telecast on DD. If I remember right, it was the only state to do so.”
There were two impositions.
1965 . The real imposition of 2 lang formula.
1982 . when national TV started and all local TV news was replaced by national TV news.
That was the time when Chennai revolted the way you described above.
The second one was bit immature, not much different from railway stations in TN having the name in Hindi or a Chennai madurai flight announcement in Eng and Hindi but not tamil.
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hari
August 20, 2020
Funny that someone said nothing has happened to Hinduism even after 600 years of subjugation, but goes to fear monger that BJP will change Hinduism.
Categorizing BJP supporters as Upper caste/Uneducated shows the condescending attitude of the commenter. So is the commenter hinting that any “lower caste” people who are supporting BJP are uneducated? Common dude the first thing to beat your opposition is to understand them.
One wants to uplift the lower classes, but goes on to diss a cultural festival that is celebrated by all walks of life in Mumbai with absolute glee. 10 days of festivities were people forget themselves, consider the roads to be their own discotheque and dance with no reservations (famous Gaitonde’s words). Ganpathy in Mumbai/Pune is not just a religious festival, it is a social/cultural event. Ofcourse there is commercialization, there is exaggeration, but only to see that and not see the goodness of it is pretty sad. Standing amidst the dhol taasha, being part of that energy, I have seen Muslims play those dhols, and get immersed is an experience in itself. Sadly this year due to Covid we are missing out, but next year Bappa will come with a bigger bang.
Comparing a 10 days festival with something that happens 5 times every 365 days is completely out of proportion comparison. As I said earlier we have lost the sense of proportion in India. And is it not typical whatabouttery that the left accuse Right of?
Both the sides strive on fear mongering, that is their bread and butter. As of now one group has become a master at it, deal with it. But don’t say that the left/liberal cabal don’t fear monger. That is laughable at the least.
To some one who used the often repeated tape – they came for this group and that group and finally they will come for you. That is precisely what is happening in Tamil Nadu if one may argue – first they came for Ram you said he is a North Indian god, then they came for Pillayar you said he is a Aryan god, then they came for Andal you said she is an Iyengar, now they came for Kandan, even now you say only Kundavai and Seyyon are our gods. Next they will come for them as well, appo enga poi moonjiya vechupeenga? One more example will be what happened to Mayans and closer home (which a lot of us don’t even know) is Goan Inquisition. I hope you understand my point.
BJP is a political party it will be here for a few more years and then some new party will come up. But BJP is not hinduism, just because you are anti (be how so ever anti-BJP nobody cares) BJP, don’t diss Hinduism just for the heck of it. Hinduism is an all evolving dharma with its own drawbacks. We have seen many reformers who were followers of hinduism and we will see many more reformers. But we will strongly oppose any namesake reformer who learn Hinduism only to further their own goals.
Comparing Hindu/Buddhist/Jainism wars with what the Mughals/Invaders did is typical whatabboutery and lacks complete sense of proportion. Just read from their own diaries about their own atrocities which they have proudly documented.
I and my friends who vote for BJP are no slouches, we will move on the moment we see a better alternative. Bring us that alternative. At the moment that alternative is a sloppy mess. They display the bigotry that they blame the other of, they display the hypocrisy they blame the other of, they display all the bad qualities that they blame the other of (there are countless examples to prove each of these points). Only difference is they think that they have a higher moral standing. Get down from the pedestal and smell the coffee.
Let’s hope there is better opposition for BJP in 2024. Peace out.
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Anu Warrier
August 21, 2020
I dream of waking up one fine day and there is no religion on Earth. What a glorious day that would be!
“If we were to wake up some morning and find that everyone was the same race, creed, and color, we would find some other cause for prejudice by noon.”
George D. Aiken, US senator (20 Aug 1892-1984)
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thoravazhakkan
August 21, 2020
Islam has no problem hating kaffirs and condemning to hell.
Handing out death penalty to apostates.
Stoning women to death for adultery or some silly reason.
Polygamy and marrying underaged woman is all fair play in Islam.
Death for LGBT.
And Mullahs talk about 72 virgins and brainwash youth to take up terrorism in the name of Islam.
Left wants to fix all religions as it is too hard to name Islam. And people should not be Islamophobic as that somehow amounts to bigotry. Isn’t that weird?
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Ghost Who Walks
August 21, 2020
NotI and my friends who vote for BJP are no slouches, we will move on the moment we see a better alternative. Bring us that alternative.
Not point this question at any one specific but generally wondering since this is an argument a lot of people do put forth.
Who exactly is expected to bring that alternative? It’s not like there have been no earnest attempts earlier before and after the rise of BJP. Almost none of them were given a chance (Like Loksatta etc). Where they were given a chance, the system has tried and almost succeeded in shutting them down. Talking about AAP here. The fact remains that none of the existing parties will give a radical alternative. A new alternative will always have to start small. But for a significant section of voters in our country elections are nothing but betting on a winning horse, so they don’t get a lot of mileage.
Given this, saying that one is voting for BJP only since there is no alternative, is tacitly supporting BJP/RSS’s agenda because you identify with it at some level. NOT because you have been pushed into a corner by liberals/congress/British/Muslims/shape shifting aliens.
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Madan
August 21, 2020
“Given this, saying that one is voting for BJP only since there is no alternative, is tacitly supporting BJP/RSS’s agenda because you identify with it at some level. NOT because you have been pushed into a corner by liberals/congress/British/Muslims/shape shifting aliens.” –
Agreed. And related, voting for BJP to spite liberals is a terrible, terrible argument. Yes, I know lot of people believe in that as well. That doesn’t mean it is a wise use of your vote. An election is a game of numbers and you need to size that up when you vote instead of being emotionally swayed. Among the large parties, there was indeed no alternative to BJP in 2019. But that does not amount to an argument to give them an even bigger mandate. That had everything to do instead with a mix of spite for your ideological ‘foes’ and outsize fear of Rahul Gandhi. He was never going to win, so voting in droves for a TINA PM was a baffling mistake. Not for the first time, happened in 1971 and 1980 too. When you want to tell a party you are giving them another shot only because there is no alternative, a reduced mandate would reflect that message, NOT increasing their majority which only tells them they did everything right.
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hari
August 21, 2020
Ghost who walks, good points. I will take a stab at it
Who exactly is expected to bring that alternative?
Talking about AAP here.
is tacitly supporting BJP/RSS’s agenda because you identify with it at some level
because you have been pushed into a corner by liberals/congress/British/Muslims/shape shifting aliens.
Peace out.
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krishikari
August 21, 2020
But we would be fools to keep trusting Islam or Christianity given their supremacist teachings and their predatory history.
Yes, but this is the exact same relationship that most indigenous people of India have with Hindu supremacy and it’s predatory history. Their status at the bottom rung of the Hindu stratification is of tribals who have been displaced by deforestation, land grabs and cultural appropriation; basically oppressive colonisation. The Christians and Muslims of India are natives too, they have turned (in vain it turns out) to those foreign religions to escape the oppression imposed on them by Hinduism. This blogs commenters are predominantly upper caste Hindu and therefore the dominant narrative here is from their perspective, seeing themselves as the protagonists in India’s story and minimising the destruction they have wrought. What if the other 70% of Indians decided they are the heroes of this story?
Mythology recapitulates prehistory, meaning all this really happened.
Here is a passage from the book: This Fissured Land, An Ecological History of India by Madhav Gadgil and Ramachandra Guha.
The burning of the Khandava forest, as depicted in the Mahabharata, beautifully illustrates this belief system. … Arjuna evidently wants to clear the Khandava forest to provide land for his agricultural/pastoral clan, and to build their capital city Indraprastha. The burning of the forest, and the killing of the wild animals and tribal food gatherers is couched in the terminology of a great ritual sacrifice to please Agni. Agni’s apprearance a s a Brahmin begging alms is significant…
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KS
August 21, 2020
@Rahul:
As I mentioned, while we are allowed to be partial to ourselves, we have always been welcoming and respectful of communities that are cordial with us. I never advocated kicking outsiders out for the heck of it, but just the setting of priorities and treating each case by its own merits. Without a sweeping inviolable “everybody is equal” rule that will only work in favor of aggressors who will exploit it against us.
I too love the idea of an inclusive India. As a sanctuary for the old gods, a safe space for ancient religions, and persecuted groups from all over the world. Where we all coexist harmoniously and enrich each other. Not just the colorful variations of Hinduism and other native religions, but also foreign religions (I would support bringing the Yazidis as refugees, for instance). That is precisely the reason why I am not comfortable with Islam and Christianity being in this mix. These two are the groups the other identities need protection from. When will we learn?
This is not an unfounded fear based on history from long ago. Historical hurt is one thing, but even if we can bring ourselves to look past that, it won’t help. Because this project of eliminating native beliefs is still ongoing, just through different strategies adapted for the modern age. An immediate example that comes to mind is the Joshua project (google it). See how these missionary groups map out and profile every community precisely, with specific customized strategies for conversion. “Vela-nu vandhuta vellaikaran madhiri” I have to admit I respect their tenacity and organization, however distasteful and threatening their goals.
So while I wouldn’t support forced homogenization of Hinduism, or the suppression of any other identity for the sake of it, it is precisely to keep India as a welcoming inclusive garden that I think weeds like Islam and Christianity must be monitored and trimmed. Else they’ll overrun the garden and ruin everything. As far as I see, this is the idea most Hindutva people agree on, and forms the basis for their support. The rest of the fears about Hindi imposition (unrelated and irrelevant to this discussion), policing of habits, appropriation of subaltern traditions, etc. I understand and agree with @AnuWarrier that they must be resisted if it comes to that.
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Srinivas R
August 21, 2020
Lot of people have asked about how it was in emergency. I was not even born that time, but I read a bunch of quotes when emergency was announced. An overwhelming majority of them welcomed it. Some people with the same language that is used to praise Modi effusively.
I am drawing parallels from there.
An authoritarian regime where the PM is looked upon like god – check
A man who brooks no opponents and is know for his hard headed stance being the 2nd in command – check
A pliant media and affluent community which was always in praise of the leadership – check (of course the current media takes being pliant to a whole new level, unmatched in our history)
Bonus point – socialist economic thinking with import substitution as means of Atmanirbhartha(Indira Gandhi used the exact same word sometime in mid70s, will share the video when i get around to find it).
Later after the emergency, some of the same people who supported Indira Gandhi have also admitted their error in supporting emergency ( some not all).
https://www.academia.edu/43432088/A_Collection_of_Statements_on_the_1975_Emergency?email_work_card=title – Try this link. You need to register and access content, if you are interested.
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Srinivas R
August 21, 2020
“Everyone must sink their political, religious and lingusitic differences to rally around the prime minister and pledge to create a new India under her leadership.. My followers are Indians first, Maharashtrians later” – Bal Thackery, Times of India, Nov 11, 1975
Harvanshrai bachchan (And other writers) .
“We. the writers in various languages of India. welcome and strongly endorse the timely promulgation of Emergency by the Prime Minister to curb antinational and reactionary forces which were endangering the unity and freedom of India.”
(Times of India: July 30, 1975)
C subramaniam (Union Finance Minister, addressing an anti-fascist conference)
“The forces of nationalism must present a single front to resist the forces of fascism and dictatorship in the country.”
(Times of India: November 16, 1975)
“She only wants to revert to the Emergency period when India was equated with Indira.”
(Indian Express: February 4, 1978)
Bansilal
“If anyone can improve Inclia it is the youth and the workers. Who can show the youth the way except SanJay Gandhi? Walk shoulder to shoulder with him.”
(Current March 1977)(At a public meeting) .
“Never in the future would any compulsion be allowed (sterilisation).
Forgive us for our past mistakes,”
(Current March 5, 1977)
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kaizokukeshav
August 21, 2020
The whole debate is happening because much of the world is just reacting to bullying by Islam till now. It’s something new and unexpected and a ‘Taboo’ till now. Not just that the world has also recognized that politicians have kept these damaging identities in the dark and used them for their gains. That won’t happen again for quite some time, atleast on that huge scale.
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Rajesh
August 21, 2020
“If we were to wake up some morning and find that everyone was the same race, creed, and color, we would find some other cause for prejudice by noon.”
Well aware of that. Thats why I have a second dream.
The earth has finally become free of its biggest parasite – HUMANS. It is truly a paradise now.
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Madan
August 21, 2020
“An overwhelming majority of them welcomed it. Some people with the same language that is used to praise Modi effusively.” – It could be the hangover from long years of being under conquest, but we seem to rather get enamoured by power and the brazen display of it. That is the only way I can explain the love affair with Indira and now Modi. We don’t understand that too strong a leader is a liability in democracy. Without the checks and balances being allowed to operate, there is nothing to stop the talismanic all powerful leader from pushing through reckless, and frequently bad, decisions. To protect said power, such a leader will also compromise the institutions in a way a ‘weaker’ one cannot.
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Honest Raj
August 21, 2020
… saying that one is voting for BJP only since there is no alternative, is tacitly supporting BJP/RSS’s agenda because you identify with it at some level.
Pretty much agree on this. I’ve observed this in various social media platforms. In Quora, where the BJP IT cell is highly active, the TINA sentiment was prevalent even as far as back in 2016. What was even more surprising was that most of the users who subscribed to the sentiment claimed themselves to be liberals. Sure, India wasn’t a land of milk and honey prior to 2014, but we weren’t living in a jungle either. No sane person would say that India has progressed (in terms of social and economic development) over the last six years.
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Rahul
August 21, 2020
KS- ” I never advocated kicking outsiders out for the heck of it, but just the setting of priorities and treating each case by its own merits”
Who died and made you the judge for deciding the case by its own merits. Please don’t disrespect Bala Saheb, he has already decided. If you write 5 paragraphs again we cannot be friends. Either you are with us or against us.
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Madan
August 21, 2020
“No sane person would say that India has progressed (in terms of social and economic development) over the last six years.” – The ‘brilliance’ (albeit one serviced for entirely the wrong purpose) of Modi and the BJP IT Cell is to successfully make the Indian voter forget about this simple fact. That the supposed mess that BJP inherited in 2014 was a lot better than where we are today. We have been convinced to accept these ‘mitigating factor’ arguments in the wait of a promised land that’s never going to arrive. Even the achche din slogan is gone, aptly enough.
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theeversriram
August 21, 2020
The way the people are talking here shows that BJP is going to win even bigger in 2024. The so called liberals condescending attitude towards followers of Hinduism seems really astonishing.
Below is the link of Shekhar Gupta’s analysis of India Today recent poll and this might give better insight on people’s perception of Modi & BJP.
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Aman Basha
August 21, 2020
To compare the outlook, popularity and personality of the two big BJP leaders with the two big Congress leaders, Vajpayee was more like Nehru, which might also be due to their close personal equation and that Nehru often encouraged Vajpayee while Modi is like Indira Gandhi, where Indira’s Emergency made Modi go into hiding for many years.
It also explains the popularity and following of Nehru w.r.t Indira and Vajpayee w.r.t Modi.
@Madan: It can also be how charismatic Indira and Modi are, right? It’s not exactly an Indian problem, people always love a strong, charismatic powerful leader let it be any part of the world. Putin is an example, even Supreme Tweeter has a cult of personality working on his showmanship.
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KS
August 22, 2020
@krishikari:
The issue of tribals that you talk about is part of the more general conflict between hunter-gatherer forest tribes versus organized agrarian civilizations, which has shaped the evolution of human society. Not just in India but everywhere, tribes are no match for the mainstream and their needs, so either get pushed out and marginalized (like in India), assimilated (India again), or worse, annihilated (like the aboriginals and natives in the Americas and Australia). If anything, the modern nation state of India has done much more damage to tribes, compared to earlier kingdoms. I agree that it may be unfortunate, but that apart, its a different discussion altogether about ownership of territory and natural resources. How does this relate in any direct way with Hinduism, and how does this even compare with the industrial scale religiously-motivated violence of Islam and Christianity?
Also, I’m genuinely curious about this “cultural appropriation” part. I understand the travails of tribals when it comes to deforestation, land grabbing, displacement due to mining, etc. (all of which have nothing much to do with Hinduism). If they are forced to move out of their tribal enclave and enter the big bad world of the mainstream, some assimilation on their part is inevitable. But how exactly is cultural appropriation happening? Are you talking about some tribal goddesses being identified with Durga and becoming a Hindu shrine? If so, I think thats a beautiful way of merging traditions without fighting or undermining the beliefs (in a way, our entire religion may have coalesced this way). Certainly better than the christian pastors kicking, smashing and burning their idols because “devil worship”, and erasing their identity altogether.
“What if the other 70% of Indians decided they are the heroes of this story?” Like I said to @AnuWarrier, let the tribals speak for themselves and make their case. Why should we shoot ourselves on behalf of imagined aggrieved parties all the time, with hypotheticals, tiresome exaggerations and obscene equivalences? We have enough enemies who are always there to point out our flaws and exploit them, we don’t have to punish ourselves further by doing the same. In India, many communities are victims on one front while being aggressors on another front, both of varying degrees. Hindus may be guilty when it comes to untouchables and tribes, but that cannot be used to deny that they (and this includes the lower castes and tribes too) were victims of Islam and Christianity. So if I talk about the latter, you can’t shut me up by shaming me about the former and making it seem like everybody is bad in their own way, so we should let it all go. Thats like saying a Dalit man cannot complain about injustice, because being a man, he too is complicit in systemic injustice against women. They are separate issues that must be addressed independently. Just because we Hindus are guilty when it comes to tribals and untouchables doesn’t mean we have no right to defend ourselves in our land against sinister foreign religions which are guilty of much more horrific crimes against way more people.
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Rahul
August 22, 2020
“The way the people are talking here shows that BJP is going to win even bigger in 2024. The so called liberals condescending attitude towards followers of Hinduism seems really astonishing..” So basically whole aim from the electoral process of the Hindu voters is to piss off liberals. Good to know.
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Honest Raj
August 22, 2020
The ‘brilliance’ (albeit one serviced for entirely the wrong purpose) of Modi and the BJP IT Cell is to successfully make the Indian voter forget about this simple fact.
Andrey (2009) sonnar Andavar. 🙂 And, they also made sure that the average voter is convinced that Rahul Gandhi is a ‘pappu’.
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krishikari
August 22, 2020
@KS In my post I neglected to mention and I think you understood, that all those displaced people are not just tribals, at least they are not anymore, they are the SC, ST and Dalits who form the vast bottom of your vedic hierarchy.
70 to 80 percent of Indias population. They have been historically denied land, education and manipulated to vote against their own interests. Now they are finding their own voices.
Just because we Hindus are guilty when it comes to tribals and untouchables doesn’t mean we have no right to defend ourselves in our land against sinister foreign religions which are guilty of much more horrific crimes against way more people.
Who says they are more horrific? Anyway how does it even matter who committed more horrific atrocities, aren’t the present day killings of Muslims and Dalits horrific enough? In “our” rage against the past, “we” are advocating attacking the native followers (at least that is what RSS ideology leads to) of the sinister foreign religions here in India, while sending “our” children to the Christian countries to study and Islamic countries to work and spreading endogamic practices. ( See the disgusting Indian Matchmaking serial) The “we” you speak of are not attacking any foreign powers but our own people. That is the point I’m making. There has to be a better way than these knee jerk reactions.where mainly poor people and activists within India are the targets.
As for cultural appropriation TM Krishna and others have said it much more eloquently than I possibly could, so please if you are interested such sources are easy enough to find.
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krishikari
August 22, 2020
So if I talk about the latter, you can’t shut me up by shaming me about the former and making it seem like everybody is bad in their own way, so we should let it all go.
Not at all trying to shut you up or shame you, that’s on you to choose how to react to my opinion. How about I shut up instead? I have come to the limit of my thoughts on these topics, anyway.
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theeversriram
August 22, 2020
@Rahul, where did I say Hindu voters only want to piss of so called liberals? So called liberals aren’t really that important. There would be 100 reasons out if which pissing off liberals would be 96 or 97th.
Problem here is if people point out the violence and their mistrust of Islam, they are made to shut up by quoting irrelevant stuff relating to BJP, Congress, caste system, Hindi impossion, etc etc. This stops the discussion and everyone is in their echo chambers.
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thoravazhakkan
August 22, 2020
Anyone comments about Islam’s pathetic treatment of LGBT? That I think is out of syllabus. Secular crooks pretend that the problem is non-existent. Islamophobia is the only language that these guys will understand. Tit-for-tat is the way to go.
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KS
August 23, 2020
@krishikari:
As far as I know, TM Krishna talks mainly about the brahmin appropriation of Carnatic music performance and Bharatanatyam (from Isai Vellalars and Devadasis). These Isai Vellalars and Devadasis are/were Hindu communities closely associated with temples and performing arts. When their dominance in performing arts waned due to British colonial laws and Victorian norms, the brahmins reinvented the art forms and used their elite patronage networks to make these their fiefdoms. Whether that is fair is a valid debate, but this is again an intra-religious evolution. I was asking about the cultural appropriation by Hinduism of tribal identities that you claimed. You’re mixing up matters just to somehow paint Hindus as villains. I know that TM Krishna loves to do that as well.
–“Who says they are more horrific? Anyway how does it even matter who committed more horrific atrocities, aren’t the present day killings of Muslims and Dalits horrific enough?”
Even a cursory reading of history (even if censored and toned down so as to maintain religious harmony) will convince you that Islamic and Christian domination of entire continents was brutal and involved massacre and destruction of native cultures on an unimaginable scale. If you choose to be in denial about that just to be able to draw false equivalences, thats your prerogative. For all our faults regarding caste, I still maintain that we’re much better than abrahamic religions in every way.
The comparison and scale of violence does matter if you want to form balanced judgments. In reality, we are faced with hard choices between flawed options, so we will have to grade evil based on magnitude. Saying that a lynching of one Muslim cancels out a jihadi terror attack killing hundreds of Hindus, therefore all religions are equally evil; that just doesn’t cut it. It gives too much leeway to aggressive religions, and excessively vilifies relatively softer religions.
As for your point about our attacking native people with foreign beliefs, thats something I ponder over too, and I have no clear answer. On the one hand, these people have abandoned our fold and traitorously joined forces with foreign religions which are designed to wipe us out. On the other hand, these are still our own people, and many have been forced to abandon us partly because of our callousness and unfair treatment. This is certainly a predicament, and I am careful in stressing on attacking Islam and Christianity, and not Muslims and Christians.
You might argue that in practice there is no difference, and any attempt at undermining the religion will only affect the innocent people. But this is a problem not restricted to the context of religion alone, but pretty much any identity. Does being a feminist mean you want to eliminate all men? Does fighting against caste mean you want to hang all the upper castes? Similarly, saying we must keep a check on Islam and Christianity need not mean violence against individuals of the community. This is a tricky thing to achieve on the ground, I admit, much like in most identity issues. Hopefully we can work out a way that is optimal in practice- curb the predatory foreign religions strategically over time without victimizing innocent individuals, and simultaneously work on the flaws in our own religion (like caste). Its a challenge, but the alternative is what we have now- give up and bend over in the name of a half-baked version of secularism.
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Madan
August 23, 2020
“Problem here is if people point out the violence and their mistrust of Islam, they are made to shut up by quoting irrelevant stuff relating to BJP, Congress, caste system, Hindi impossion, etc etc. ” – Exactly what has NOT happened in this thread. At this point, it doesn’t matter what us libs say or do. For you and others, the hate is an addiction. It’s like Netanyahu assailing non existent leftists to win a difficult election in Israel. You have your govt now and have had it for the last six years. Go hold them to account if you are not satisfied they are doing enough to counter the danger from Islam. Stop assailing strawmen.
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thoravazhakkan
August 23, 2020
“At this point, it doesn’t matter what us libs say or do. For you and others, the hate is an addiction.” LOL. What garbage. It is people like this who embolden Islam in taking up hate crimes and terrorism as a way of life. It is such phony version of secularism has been used as tool for Chrislamists to call us kaffirs and heathens. But, when we question back we are accused of being addicted to hatred. When Jews were kicked out in the name of Islam, Hindus never had problem accommodating them. When Zoroastrians got butchered in Iran in the name of Islam, Hindus never had problem letting them into India and prosper. When Tibetans got kicked out by commies, Hindus never had issues letting them live in India. Yet, Hindus are the ones who get to hear lectures. Islam otoh has license to murder kaffirs, stone women to death, kill LGBT. Yet you fraudulent liberals will turn a blind eye and lecture us. As we speak, China has converted a mosque to a toilet.and set up concentration camps. Liberals of India as expected are silent about it
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Madan
August 23, 2020
“Anyone comments about Islam’s pathetic treatment of LGBT? ” – Yes, take Ben Shapiro, he would make one swell Muslim, wouldn’t he?
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Madan
August 23, 2020
“It is people like this who embolden Islam in taking up hate crimes and terrorism as a way of life. ” – And hence proving my point. I criticised Islamic terrorism, their oppressive practices, the changing of Turkey into a regressive Islamic state up thread. But you didn’t even bother to find out my views. Your hate rant with the standard talking points is on auto pilot now. You don’t even need provocation now. Keep hating, pretty healthy way to live, I am sure.
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Aman Basha
August 23, 2020
Well, however this debate might go on, I’m extremely happy that the courts have delivered a strong rebuke against the ruling party and the Right’s attempts to blame the spread of COVID 19 in India on Muslims and the Tablighi Jamaat. There have been many cases around the world where the virus was transmitted through religious gatherings, iirc a church gathering in South Korea led to infections in 1200 people or so. Yet nowhere has the said religious gathering or practice be so vilified and smeared by the right wing media, who have interestingly chosen not to cover the judgement at all:
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/covid-19-bombay-hc-strikes-down-cases-against-28-foreign-tablighi-members/story-Ux4qS1ouqyGS7JZNjOjqiJ.html
Hope someone files a defamation case against that loudmouth Goswami and his ilk for whatever nonsense they’ve spewed on live Television.
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Enigma
August 23, 2020
In fact Tablighi Jamaat’s event was organised before the complete lockdown announcement. It was not appropriate to have blamed them for the spread of the infection.
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KS
August 23, 2020
@AmanBasha:
Shoe is on the other foot, eh? Now you know how Hindus feels when their festivals and celebrations are unfairly targeted on a regular basis by focusing on and exaggerating the worst aspects and exploiting that to demonize the religion and its believers. Holi? Just an excuse for sexual assault. Diwali? Liberals’ pet doggies are stressed by the noise of firecrackers. Also air pollution. Navarathri? Debauchery. Raksha Bandhan and Karva Chauth? Regressive patriarchy. Ram leela? Ram was an aryan misogynist and Ravana is the true subaltern hero. Vinayaka Chturthi? Power display of majoritarian bullies. Also, traffic congestion. Kumbh Mela? Mass delusion and environmental destruction. Onam? Not a Hindu festival but secular. Amarnath or Vaishno Devi yatra? Environmental destruction. If no customized excuse is available, there’s always the caste system which is a versatile all-purpose weapon. And now, Hindutva is available as well. Everything Hindus do is scrutinized and criticized excessively all the time, while other religions are never held to the same standard. Self-criticism for the sake of reform and progress is all fine, but it often feels like a concerted attempt at suppressing our expression by coloring everything in a negative shade. Since Muslims are not accustomed to this, the Tablighi Jamath vilification seems like a big deal. You’ll get used to it.
@Madan:
Why do you get so angry all the time? Also, I don’t get whats wrong in whataboutery. Its a valid way to point out double standards and inconsistency in principles. Both sides use it all the time.
But yes, this is a bad time to be a liberal. I think many Hindus view liberals as a vestige of a colonial school of thought when it comes to Indian issues (especially religion in India). Try reading British-era writings and correspondences by foreign indologists. They’re shockingly racist and quite blatant about their aims to Christianize India by demonizing the Hindu way of life. While that worldview has now softened, it still feels like liberals are heirs of that school of thought, and view our religion and culture through an abrahamic lens developed by their predecessors. Their definitions, concepts and language are all borrowed from a western discourse shaped for and by abrahamic cultures. For example, their definition of a religion and secularism are based entirely on their experiences with Semitic monotheisms, and they fumble when it comes to an amorphous idea like Hinduism. To be successful in staying relevant, they will need to go beyond regurgitating woke buzzwords and a sith-like dealing in absolutes.
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hari
August 23, 2020
Awesome job by the “Indian liberals” to force a popular publisher to back out from publishing a book, kudos to all the libs. They are the true paragons of liberal values.
Infact the liberals have no reason to worry, they control the academia, they control what when how information should be disseminated to the aam aadmis. Liberals are the Newmans (Seinfeld) of India.
As said by the great Senthil information is wealth, and you guys possess it in plenty, so yeah no worries. With the social media exploding with this wealth you guys are feeling the pinch, but its ok, you guys will overcome this passing cloud. So no worries.
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Madan
August 23, 2020
“Why do you get so angry all the time?” – I am not angry at all, so maybe stop projecting your anger at what I say that is disagreeable to you. I am not going to stop saying it just because it infuriates you or other righties. You wanted a safe space to debate and you got it, that doesn’t mean you can expect us to nod in genuflection.
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Madan
August 23, 2020
” Try reading British-era writings and correspondences by foreign indologists. ” – What makes you think I haven’t?
“They’re shockingly racist and quite blatant about their aims to Christianize India by demonizing the Hindu way of life.” – Undoubtedly, yes. But the Sangh preferred the British to Gandhi. I don’t know about you but I do find that strange.
“While that worldview has now softened, it still feels like liberals are heirs of that school of thought, and view our religion and culture through an abrahamic lens developed by their predecessors.” – With such blatant generalizations, you should not expect deference in our responses. The only religious text I have read even a part of is the Gita and have zero interest in reading those of any other, simplistic as their formulations are.
“Their definitions, concepts and language are all borrowed from a western discourse shaped for and by abrahamic cultures.” – So too the achche din aanewale hai slogan was a riff on FDR’s Happy Days Are Here Again.
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Enigma
August 23, 2020
@KS, it is the far left who criticise Hindu festivals. Take it up with them. Muslims do not go around dissing Hindu festivals and culture.
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TambiDude
August 23, 2020
“I criticised Islamic terrorism, their oppressive practices, the changing of Turkey into a regressive Islamic state up thread.”
Madan,
You and I are not media. We are no body.
Can you show some eminent journalist writing about recent Bangalore riots and blaming visesh samudai.
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Madan
August 23, 2020
“You and I are not media.” – Then don’t ask me or other liberals to account for what the media does. We don’t take righties to task for the nonsense Arnab spouts on Republic TV so why should it be different with us.
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Saket
August 23, 2020
Rajesh: I dream of waking up one fine day and there is no religion on Earth. What a glorious day that would be!
On that note, if there’s one religion — any religion — that can guarantee I won’t get infected by COVID-19, ever…I’d like to convert.
Like, right here, right now!
On a more serious note, it’s astonishing that we continue to argue about the importance of religion in times when a simple crown-shaped virus has laid bare all our beliefs about salvation.
This shit ain’t getting fixed by no prophet, no messiah (or avatar), any time soon.
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theeversriram
August 23, 2020
@Madan, are you responding to my post or just want to say off whatever is in your mind, regardless of the discussion going on ?
Saying that Islam has lot of violence and regressive practices is spewing hate? Then how about your pointless rants against BJP, Hindutva, Modi, etc etc (again you had to bring up BJP when the discussion is on Islam)
Honestly you may call yourself liberal but a couple of simple questions and you pretend to have a higher moral authority and start lecturing?
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theeversriram
August 23, 2020
@Hari this is nothing new. I remember in 2014 Tamil writer Joe Cruz’s English translation was stopped by publishers; he received death threats and was systematically excluded in Tamil literary circles. His crime? Endorsement of Modi for prime ministership in 2014.
No liberals came out for him, even in Tamil Nadu. He didn’t receive a small percentage of support that Perumal Murugan got. All for having a political opinion.
But liberals have all the time for some idiot for threatened to cut off Deepika Padukone nose.
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Aman Basha
August 23, 2020
I’m sorry but which news channel took photos of a meeting between an Indian icon and the Turkish First Lady, uploaded by the Indian Ambassador on Twitter and turn into an absurd narrative of the Khans being anti nationals and desh drohis? If you’re talking about media, then the Right has very interesting questions to answer for.
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TambiDude
August 23, 2020
“Then don’t ask me or other liberals to account for what the media does. ”
that is because you come across as a gone case woke . Do you know 9-1 rule?
Attack BJP 9 times, attack Cong 1 time and then claim you are not biased. The funny thing, many fall for this.
Anyhow this blog has now become a full blown woke rag.
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Madan
August 24, 2020
“that is because you come across as a gone case woke .” – Excuse me? I am civil not because I don’t know how not to be but because I respect the decorum of this space. If your level of entitlement is so high that you think you can make bold as to be rude, I will reply in kind.
“Attack BJP 9 times, attack Cong 1 time ” – And the ratio was reverse UPA days because Cong was in power and BJP was in opposition. Something very simple that you would understand if party loyalty wasn’t so important to you.
“Anyhow this blog has now become a full blown woke rag.” – So don’t post here, na? Who’s forcing you? As of now, there are more, er, non-woke participants in this thread than otherwise but apparently even a word of resistance against what you say is intolerable to you. In that case, don’t discuss, right?
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Madan
August 24, 2020
“Saying that Islam has lot of violence and regressive practices is spewing hate? ” – No, the fact that even when you are given a space to discuss your views unfiltered, you still keep claiming liberals are stopping you and forcing an echo chamber on you, whatever. At this point, it’s just a mental image fixed in your head that as soon as one of us libs speak, you will accuse us of stopping you from expressing our views. We are entitled to the same right to speech as you are. If you find our views intolerable, that’s not our problem.
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Nishabdha Seva
August 24, 2020
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KS
August 24, 2020
@Madan:
You’re right that this thread has been refreshingly free, and yes, some of us righties are way too defensive, insecure and reactionary.
But would you disagree that the traditional liberal spaces like the media, literature, academia (ignoring hard sciences) have always been quite intolerant of any deviation from their overall worldview? Just like as a rightie I need to address the issue of lynchings etc. even though I have never personally lynched anybody, you too have to honestly face up to the general behavior of the liberal community that you identify with.
As @hari pointed out, take the recent example of a publishing house being bullied into pulping a book that liberals suspect might offer an opposing viewpoint. This is not an isolated phenomenon. Authors with even moderate right-leaning views have often raised this issue, and described how they have kept losing opportunities because of media houses and publishers being pressured against association with a “sanghi”. Its as if liberals believe in free speech only as long as they agree with the speech. Else, it is hate speech that will lead to fascism, holocaust and global annihilation. Its like the nepotism debate in Bollywood. A coterie of people with similar liberal views keeps out anyone with divergent opinions through unfair criticism, labels and canceling. And then they have the gall to ask “why are there no right-wing intellectuals?”. Even a Nobel laureate like VS Naipaul’s stature as an intellectual is questioned as soon as his friendship with the RSS is revealed. While any two-bit moron who can string together a few woke keywords is bestowed grandiose titles like public intellectual, poet, activist, etc.
This seems to be changing now, though. Because of easier dissemination of information, and market forces responding to this shift. If you find the current media’s sucking up to majoritarian Hindu sentiments intolerable, keep in mind that the opposite had always been the status quo. So even if I might disagree with the cheapshots of the media concerning corona-jihad, AamirKhan is ISI agent, and such frivolous nonsense, I must admit to some glee in watching the liberals squirm.
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Madan
August 24, 2020
“Just like as a rightie I need to address the issue of lynchings etc. even though I have never personally lynched anybody, you too have to honestly face up to the general behavior of the liberal community that you identify with.” – And I have, including in this space and several times before in the blog. But there is a point where I have to ask whether you really do not have anything else you find worthy of discussing at all. As you yourself mention, the current media sucks up to Hindutva. So the balance you sought has been achieved, right? When you then carry on litigating the case against liberal media, it starts to sound like you just want any liberal outlets of expression vanquished. That is what I am pushing back against and that is where I am calling out the hate addiction. Your side has won, so start consolidating and stop fighting. Don’t narrow the circle, broaden it. Big tents survive longer.
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TambiDude
August 24, 2020
Hinduvta is Hinduism which resists. Calling it as hate addiction is as accurate as calling Islam a religion of peace.
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KS
August 24, 2020
@Madan:
The balance has not yet been achieved, and we have not won the war, just a few small battles. This is just the beginning, and as with any beginning, there will be teething problems. Some media houses are just hedging their bets and going along with the current mood in a farcical way. But there’s a long way to go when it comes to attaining a permanent and stable balance in the overall narrative. And balance is all I’m asking for, not dominance and unanimity. For too long has the norm been “ennaku vandha raththam, unakku vandha thakkali chutney” when it comes to minorities versus Hindus. Either it is all raththam or all thakkali chutney.
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Madan
August 24, 2020
“Hinduvta is Hinduism which resists. Calling it as hate addiction is as accurate as calling Islam a religion of peace.” – I didn’t call Hindutva a hate addiction but you go right ahead misrepresenting me just because I am a liberal. Whatever makes you sleep tight, bud.
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Madan
August 24, 2020
“The balance has not yet been achieved, and we have not won the war, just a few small battles. ” – And the next phase of the war is not going to be won by hammering on people’s heads and telling them they are anti national if they don’t share your views. Think why with a weak opposition, BJP only increased its majority by 30 or so seats in 2019. They should have easily won 400 seats. IMO they would have without notebandi souring the deal for many. You can’t keep asking people to ignore all the fundamental stuff and only focus on religion, it’s not going to work. Widen the conversation and you will win more followers. My two cents…and I know hardcore Gujarati BJP supporters who said they voted NOTA in 2019. You can assail them as cucks or whatever is the favourite rightie insult or you can talk to them and find out if they had a valid grouse. As I said, listening cannot be a one way street. You may not have won all your battles but you are in the ascendancy and you are in control, so start acting like it.
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Aman Basha
August 24, 2020
@Madan: The most important reason Modi has been winning is because of Rahul Gandhi. The ‘pappu’ memes worked big time and the opposition doesn’t have the resources nor the publicity to organize and lack the right candidate to inspire. Congress is so messed up that the failure of 2019 made everyone resign or be held accountable except the leadership. I frankly pray the Congress just dies soon and we have a better opposition that truly speaks of liberal views without following a feudal setup in its organization.
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KS
August 24, 2020
Different people have different priorities. For some, maybe the economy and development are more important. For me, the religious aspect is fundamental, and long overdue. My allegiance is not to the BJP as such, but to broader Hindutva. Personally, I can be forgiving when it comes to BJP’s mistakes, as long as their dominance allows the Hindutva ideology to grow and take root. The sight of our country’s prime minister leading the Ganga aarthi and Ram temple bhumi puja are powerful moments, and I want more of such. I also support CAA, blocking of evangelical funds and other more steps that would crush the spirit of Islamists and Christian missionaries.
Widening of the conversation will happen as we go along, but both sides must want that. Often you find its the liberals who keep harping on religious intolerance and Hindu fascism all the time, and all other issues are seen against this backdrop or relegated to the periphery. After all, the Delhi CAA protests didn’t happen in opposition to notebandi or other economic policies, did it? An imagined injustice against Muslims got liberals more worked up to hit the streets, than an economic policy that affected all of us. Your side too must show that it cares more about other important issues rather than just being a savior of Muslims and the “idea of India”. So yes, it can’t be a one-way street.
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Honest Raj
August 24, 2020
I frankly pray the Congress just dies soon and we have a better opposition that truly speaks of liberal views without following a feudal setup in its organization.
Yet another argument that sides with the TINA/NOTA supporters. How about Mamata/Laloo/Kejriwal for a change? If at all a brand new liberal party is formed, it will take another 5-6 decades for your wish to come true. Until then, good luck.
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Honest Raj
August 24, 2020
Imagine a time when a far-right party takes over the country and the Sangh faces the same fate as today’s INC (i.e. being perceived as pro-minority/anti-Hindu). I guess today’s rightists would become the new liberals.
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Enigma
August 25, 2020
@ Aman Basha, Congress’ biggest problem is that they completely ceeded the nationalism plank to BJP. Many do not realise that you can be secular and at the same time a nationalist (patriot) – like the SP, many regional parties or Captain Amarinder Singh. I am sure that there are many others. Congress needs to rediscover the secular nationalism of some of its former stalwarts like Shastri, Zakir Hussain, Arjun Singh etc.
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Madan
August 25, 2020
“After all, the Delhi CAA protests didn’t happen in opposition to notebandi or other economic policies, did it?” – So let’s talk about notebandi. It’s when I found BJP supporters accusing me of bias or being ‘Congressi’ (when I had voted for BJP in 2014) for criticising demo that I broke with the BJP for good. Because it had now become a personality cult (and still is). So if you bring up economic policy now, it’s like conservatives now becoming OK with Kaepernick taking a knee (because violent protests are much worse). That ship has sailed. In 2016, when we criticised demo, were we asking for Modi to step down and Congress to take over govt? No. So when even policy criticism came to be seen only in BJP v/s Congress terms by Modi supporters, I said I can no longer align with this party, not until the party and its supporters come back to their senses. You talked about priorities and for me, the priority is democracy itself. And voters being able to ask questions and hold the govt to account is fundamental to democracy. If BJP supporters are going to sit and tone police the criticism itself and characterise 99% of it as anti national, then I cannot possibly support that, whatever be their own priorities.
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Ghost Who Walks
August 25, 2020
Who exactly is expected to bring that alternative?
Whoever is saying that BJP is not to be touched even with long pole. That they are some sort of untouchables. Let them bring. We are all open to try them out
Now, like I mentioned in my earlier comment, this question was for people who say that they don’t believe BJP’s ideology but are forced to vote from them because TINA. If you (a generic you) belong to this category, then its quite ridiculous that you outsource the responsibility of bringing an alternative to some one else. If you do believe in the BJP/RSS ideology, then of course the question is moot.
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Ghost Who Walks
August 25, 2020
My allegiance is not to the BJP as such, but to broader Hindutva. Personally, I can be forgiving when it comes to BJP’s mistakes, as long as their dominance allows the Hindutva ideology to grow and take root
Your side too must show that it cares more about other important issues rather than just being a savior of Muslims and the “idea of India”. So yes, it can’t be a one-way street
Do you really not see the issue here?
On one hand you proclaim that religion is more important than policy and yet expect Muslims/liberals to do the exact opposite. But by your own admission, it wouldn’t matter to you since you will stand with BJP no matter what the policy issues are. A classic switch-n-bait if there is any!
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KS
August 25, 2020
@GhostWhoWalks:
As I mentioned, others may have broader priorities, and its not as if every supporter of BJP is obsessed solely with religious issues and willing to overlook everything else, however ruinous. I was only talking about my personal priorities, which I freely admit to.
But if you’re going to accuse the entire right of focusing disproportionately on religion, its not like the liberals are helping matters. If economic issues are more important than religion, why weren’t there protests against demo on the scale of the anti-CAA protests? Liberals too have to choose their battles and signal what is important to be addressed. If you perpetually drone on about intolerance and fascism, with relatively lesser and temporary focus on economic matters, then the discourse will be dominated by religion. The right obviously prefers that, and you’re falling into their trap.
If you want to shape the discourse and make the BJP more accountable on policy matters and governance, then stop focusing on (or even mentioning) religion, secularism, nationalism or other vague ideals. Accept that you’ve lost the battle on that front, the right will not cede any ground on those issues, and all you can do now about that is whine to your support groups and write wistful poems.
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TambiDude
August 25, 2020
BJP has done jackshit on economy so far. From demo to unnecessary total covid lock down, Modi is pretty much clueless. On infrastructure building, railways, upgrading defence quite good. But overall on the economy I don’t see anything spectacular. Quite disappointing.
“My allegiance is not to the BJP as such, but to broader Hindutva.”
True. To their credit no mainstream party has done to lower caste as much as BJP. Look at the way VHP is appointing a dalit priest for RJB. Only yesterday I saw a photo of local VHP man hugging a dalit priest in TN.
The main reason BJP’s vote share increased after 2004/2009 debacle is that they are now getting higher percentage of lower caste votes.
If Hindus vote en-block, BJP is assured for a foreseeable future. We know commies, visesh samudai and christians vote en-block for as different party.
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hari
August 26, 2020
G Waugh, since you mentioned in another post that nobody is commenting on the contents of this post, here you go.
The creation of Israel in 1948 from a Muslim-dominated Palestine with America’s support could safely be regarded as the starting point of the story.
The ISIS was built very much on the frustration suffered by millions of homeless and orphaned Afghans and Iraqis at the hands of the American military.
open-minded right-wingers who subscribe to trenchant ‘anti-Pakistani’ Hindutva narratives could do well to take a few moments to recall the strong nexus that existed between their much-favoured US and their arch-enemy Pakistan that dominated Asian politics ever since our Independence.
Rest of your article regarding American Imperialism is the usual drivel that my Pakistani friend in US (ironically) used to give as to why extremism is increasing in Pakistan, this was a couple of decades back. Sorry for being blunt.
I have always questioned myself as to why leftism/islamism go hand in hand, and today I got an answer. Both are totalitarian/authoritarian. Both don’t like dissent. Both don’t believe in Nation state. Islam to Ummah, not sure what Leftist profess theirs to.
So my final point is, Islamaphobia will be present as long as there is Jihad. As long as non-believers are not taken kindly in Islam.
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theeversriram
August 26, 2020
@Honest Raj, Laloo/Mayawati/Kejriwal? Still the Mahaghatbandan, secular front, third front fantasies? Admit it, people don’t want them as PM, simple. By 2024 then would too old and maybe gone.
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thoravazhakkan
August 26, 2020
Check the above video. The problem with Islam and failure on part of liberals to speak up against it is being discussed. In India liberals cannot speak about Islam’s pathetic treatment of women or homosexuals. Only Hindu nationalists do and they get accused as islamophobes by secular crooks who silently support islamic bigotry. The problem is not Muslims as people. The problem is Islam as a philosophy. Muslims themselves are victims of Islam as it has crippled their ability to think freely for themselves.
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Madan
August 26, 2020
There is no path to a non BJP govt in 2024 and it will take extraordinary circumstances for such a path to emerge even by 2029. The best bet for other parties is to run the state govts well, defend the ones they have and take back more states from BJP. That keeps Rajya Sabha in play and a possible opening to pegging BJP back below 272 again. But they will comfortably cross 250 seats for a few more elections. Only Modi being replaced by a less convincing successor will do them in.
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Honest Raj
August 26, 2020
@theeversriram: That was a question to those who keep blaming the weak opposition rather than questioning the failed government. Frankly, all three of them (Mamata, not Mayawati) must be aware that they don’t stand a chance against Rahul Gandhi, leave alone Modi.
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Honest Raj
August 26, 2020
Only Modi being replaced by a less convincing successor will do them in.
Actually, this was reflected in the state elections (in Rajasthan, MP and Chhattisgarh). Despite the anti-incumbency wave in Karnataka, INC managed to emerge as the biggest party in terms of vote share. Even in Gujarat, it went neck-and-neck with BJP till the last round – it gained as many seats as BJP lost to them (this despite the heavy last-minute campaigning by Modi). However, in the parliamentary elections all these states gave a clear mandate to BJP. Amit Shah might be the ‘modern Chanakya’ but Modi is still the biggest trump card of BJP.
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Enigma
August 26, 2020
@Madan, you may know better as you, I think, are living in India. However, I am hoping that Congress makes a comeback in the next election. Rahul Gandhi will make a good PM.
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Enigma
August 26, 2020
@thoravazhakka, why should non-Muslim liberals criticise Islamic practices. II is for Muslims to criticise their religion as it is for Hindus to criticise Hinduism.
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Madan
August 26, 2020
Enigma: In 2019, somebody like me had to hold my nose to ‘vote’ for Rahul Gandhi (I didn’t actually have to, because NCP were contesting my seat and not Congress). I don’t know a single person among those who voted Congress or allies in 2019 who did so happily or because they supported Rahul. It was more a vote against Modi, a vote to mark his failure as a PM. You have seen what my views are on this ‘forum’ so imagine if it takes so much for me to vote for Rahul, what it would be like for the general populace.
Rahul is just overexposed now. He has pulled too many stunts that fell flat and his public speaking and manner remains extremely award. One can say these are superficial aspects and I would agree but I don’t see him winning with these attributes against a strongman like Modi. MAYBE you know better as you are older and have seen more of politics. But I can safely say from my vantage point in a swing state like Maharashtra (as opposed to hardcore pro BJP states like Gujarat or anti like TN/Kerala) that the concept of a Congress chamcha that the Modi supporters bandy about doesn’t even exist. Even those of us who are prepare to vote for Cong only do so as a lesser evil but not out of any affection for the party.
Now when Jay Shah gets a ministry, MAYBE, MAYBE BJP supporters will also start feeling uncomfortable with nepotism in the party. But as of now, they have far more internal democracy than Congress whose treatment of dissenters is simply pathetic. I don’t see them making a convincing argument against BJP until they clean their own house. Jyoritaditya (now no longer with the party) or Sachin Pilot may also be dynasty products but at least they speak well and canvas well for votes. Jyoritaditya gave a powerful speech against demonetisation in Parliament back in 2017. Cong blundered by not giving him a bigger role to play. Nor did they turn to an old hand like Anand Sharma (who is also a good speaker and was a capable Commerce minister as well). Just Rahul with his message that at best connects with some urban millennials but totally falls flat with older voters or those from more of a heartland culture.
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TambiDude
August 26, 2020
“@thoravazhakka, why should non-Muslim liberals criticise Islamic practices. II is for Muslims to criticise their religion as it is for Hindus to criticise Hinduism.”
Well this works in an ideal situation when all muslims live only in their own country. None of us care about what happens in AFG or Iran.
The trouble is, 200 million muslims live in India. 200m is way too much. Even few millions in Europe are reminding them daily. Who would block roads on Fri ? You guessed it right.
You think leaving it to muslims will solve the problem.
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Aman Basha
August 26, 2020
@Enigma: You have got to be kidding me with that Rahul Gandhi statement. If there’s anyone who is hurting the party the most, it is the Gandhis. In recent times, that they came close to giving a tight fight to the BJP, the Gandhis did almost nothing worthy. MP was won due to Scindia, Rajasthan due to Pilot, Hardik Patel and his lot helped in Gujarat. He is the best example of blatant nepotism, that rumors about him accusing the senior leaders of being in tow with the BJP came within moments of the CWC meeting show how inefficient he is.
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TambiDude
August 26, 2020
“Rahul Gandhi will make a good PM.”
Coming from your Enigma, I am pretty sure this is a sarcastic message.
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thoravazhakkan
August 26, 2020
@Enigma “why should non-Muslim liberals criticise Islamic practices. II is for Muslims to criticise their religion as it is for Hindus to criticise Hinduism.” I don’t know if this is sarcasm. In case it is not, it should be obvious, left to Muslims death penalty for apostasy or LGBT or adultery or criticism of Koran or Mohammad won’t ever be fixed. On top of it, these guys complain about Islamophobia if someone chooses to question them. Islam does affect the well being of the society as a whole in a very negative way and must be fixed.
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Honest Raj
August 27, 2020
The biggest upset for Congress in the last election has to be Scindia’s loss in Guna. He failed to retain his constituency which was considered a stronghold of his family. The BJP played its cards well by fielding his former aide and ensuring his victory.
Rahul Gandhi is still a political novice but he’s not as dumb as he’s made out to be. I mean, we have a PM who made an acronym out of ‘STREANH’. The sole NDA MP from TN murdered ‘DEMOCRACY’ in his maiden speech in the Parliament (okay, he atleast got the spelling right). Last year, while campaigning for this guy in his constituency, Modi reportedly called for an end to dynastic politics.
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Enigma
August 27, 2020
@Madan, Aman Basha and TambiDude, I was not being sarcastic in relation to my opinion on Rahul Gandhi. An important quality for a leader is the ability to carry all sections along. Rahul Gandhi may be a poor communicator, but he comes across as a person who will accommodate all sections of the society. He also seems to be a person who will listen to expert advice and do what is necessary. He was the only leader who took the COVID situation seriously write from the beginning. I don’t think that a leader should be a divisive figure. As regards the charge of nepotism which is used frequently to beat the Congress, I don’t think that is fair. Every political party in India is dynastic, no point in holding the Congress alone to higher standards. Anyway, he has been in the organisation for over 15 years now and he has worked hard in trying to build it. It was not like he was made the party president on day 1. May I ask what administrative experience does Jagan Reddy or Thackeray have, or Patnaik/Kumarasamy had when they became CM.
TambiDude, yes there are 200 million Muslims in India, all born there and local to the place. They have equal rights as any other group of people. If you see most of the criticism directed against Hinduism, some legitimate but most unfair, come from the extreme left wing including DK/DMK, Ambedkarite organisations. I haven’t heard of Islamic organisations being critical of Hindu practices – that is a good thing because in a diverse, multi-cultural society like India, it is important that peace be maintained. I read an article by Mani Shankar Aiyar where he mentioned that during the discussions around the Hindu Civil Code (apologies I do not remember the exact name of the legislation), the Muslim members of the constituent assembly did not express any opinion. I think we should offer them the same courtesy by not interfering in their internal affairs. If Hindus and Muslims can refrain from criticising each other’s religions, then peace can be maintained. I am all for a comprehensive blasphemy laws, to protect all religions from vile attacks by despicable organisations like DK. The real enemies are the despicable DK, Naam Tamizhar, VCK and the extreme left. Conservative Hindus and Muslims should join hands to fight these organisations.
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Enigma
August 27, 2020
@thoravazhakkan, “In case it is not, it should be obvious, left to Muslims death penalty for apostasy or LGBT or adultery or criticism of Koran or Mohammad won’t ever be fixed.” Not in India right, these laws are in place in some Islamic countries. Why should it concern Indian Hindus. Again, how does Islam’s treatment of homosexuality matter to us.
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thoravazhakkan
August 27, 2020
https://twitter.com/ExmuslimsOrg/status/1298651553927245825
Watch this video
The Mullah is saying Islam allows 4 wives and sex slaves. And consent of sex slaves have no role. In other words Islam allows rape of women as long as she is a slave.
Please convince yourselves of the following things.
1) Islamic prophet had sex slaves and that Mohammmad was a rapist.
2) ISIS follows true Islam.
3) If you respect women then morally correct thing is to be Islamophobic.
4) Islamophobia does not amount to hatred.
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Arjun
August 27, 2020
@BR: I can’t believe you allowed that previous comment to be published. Delete it NOW.
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KS
August 27, 2020
@Enigma:
The fact that even Modi critics here thought you were being sarcastic about Rahul Gandhi for PM speaks volumes about his irredeemable image.
Compare BJP’s “pappu” versus Rahul’s “Chowkidaar chor hai”. One can have very valid criticisms of Modi; that he’s evil, intolerant, megalomaniacal, etc. But casting aspersions on his honesty and personal integrity was a monumental blunder. For all his faults, his biggest draw is that he’s a self-made man who used every opportunity to prove himself, and rose through the ranks through hard work, smarts and demonstrable success. Furthermore, he has no immediate family to leech off his power, so has no discernable motive to accumulate wealth through dishonest means. So the public perception of Modi is that while he may make mistakes, he is sincere, well-intentioned and very hard working.
In contrast, the “pappu” meme took off effortlessly because its easy to believe. None of us know Rahul Gandhi personally, so we cannot accurately judge his intelligence or lack of it; all we can do is go by everything he says or does in public. And thats been a travesty. Think about it: he’s been around for almost two decades now, but has held no real post of responsibility or done anything to show that he’s even interested (leave alone competent). Even his attendance and participation in the parliament are dismal. He has failed his party in every election, but still is hoisted up and kept relevant. Every now and then, he engages in some PR-driven shenanigans (like tearing up papers or hugging the PM), and even these backfire on him. As far as “listening to experts and taking everyone along”, thats easy to pretend to do right now since he has no real power anyway. This isn’t Ranbir-level nepotism, its Uday Chopra level. So while “pappu” might be an exaggeration, its still in the ballpark.
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TambiDude
August 27, 2020
“I haven’t heard of Islamic organisations being critical of Hindu practices – that is a good thing because in a diverse, multi-cultural society like India, it is important that peace be maintained. ”
Yeah they don’t comment. They just say “give us 15 min without police, we will wipe out hindus”. They don’t comment but say “hinduon se azadi” or “tera mera rishta kya ya le la hi lalala”.
All those singing praises of Tulukas as aiyo pavam types, should live in a muslim dominated colony. It will take just 15 min to realize the mistake.
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KS
August 27, 2020
@Enigma:
Muslims organizations and clerics criticize and mock Hinduism and our gods all the time, sometimes in demeaning and vulgar ways. Just that we’re so used to it from different quarters that it rarely blows up into an issue. Even if Hindus employ legal means to fight it, they get accused of being oversensitive and given sermons on how Hinduism is plural, freedom of expression, art should provoke, blah blah. But one insult to the prophet, and we all know what happens. Cities burn. The attitude of Muslims has become so normalized that we instead accuse the critics of mischievous and hateful intentions. Its like you should know better than to say anything against Islam, so you deserve the shitstorm. Sort of like blaming a girl for getting raped because she dressed provocatively.
In such an imbalanced scenario, blasphemy laws are of not much utility to Hindus, while Muslims will exploit it to beat down even legitimate criticism and bully anybody who questions them. Even on principle, strong blasphemy laws are a terrible price to pay for an unstable peace. Everybody should be free to question any religion (not limited to their own) because we aren’t living in cocoons. Also, religious practices often get tied up with property and other legal matters that affect all of us. So while I disagree with the DK’s abuses heaped on Hindu gods, I’d rather brush it away than demand blasphemy laws to shut them up. It also serves to illustrate how different religions respond to insults, and expose the religions that claim to be peaceful but get all medieval when poked.
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theeversriram
August 27, 2020
@Arjun, let this forum be free-flowing and open for honest discussions. When Hindu gods are criticized so much (Rama, Krishna, remember the Sabarimala discussions in this forum?) why can’t Mohammed be questioned?
And the points mentioned are what leads to mistrust/disgust of Islam for many? Let those be in open so that there is at least a chance for debate.
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TambiDude
August 27, 2020
KS: Bingo. Muslims have abundantly demonstrated that violence pays. The way some of the nations in the west have simply capitulated, it is clear they fear. In UK they don’t even use the term Pakistanis for the rape gang. Their media speak is asians. Only now their police dept is acknowledging that fear of being labelled “islamaphobic” is what prevented them from full and just investigation. Now Preeti Patel is after them.
Liberals are some of the most uninformed idiots I have ever seen. May aandavan transfer them to a muslim dominated area. Ameen.
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thoravazhakkan
August 27, 2020
@Enigma: “Not in India right, these laws are in place in some Islamic countries. Again, how does Islam’s treatment of homosexuality matter to us”
If they were all living in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia only, then it wouldn’t matter. If those barbarians start living along with us, then this becomes our problem. They treat laws as though laws don’t apply to them. That’s how they overturned shah bano verdict with the help of secular crooks. Civil laws won’t be applicable to them and we have to let those blood thirsty scoundrels indulge in blackmail and so forth. Would you want to see women stoned to death on your street? It is our problem and we have civilize them and so that other law breakers don’t take advantage of the fact that you can rape a kid and become a muslim and then start blaming the kid. Islam has to be fixed if not banned. No two ways.
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Madan
August 27, 2020
“Its like you should know better than to say anything against Islam, so you deserve the shitstorm. ” – What happened in Bangalore was simply unforgivable. The answer to an insult on one’s religion has to be a counter-insult, NOT large scale rioting. The claim on the part of Muslims and apologists that the riots were sparked because of police not arresting the person who said the offensive thing was simply obnoxious and should not be countenanced. I sincerely hope the rioters have been arrested and beaten the daylights out of in lockup. To no one in particular: I will not take back these words. Your religion cannot be more precious than my property or public property, sorry.
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thoravazhakkan
August 27, 2020
“To no one in particular: I will not take back these words. Your religion cannot be more precious than my property or public property, sorry.”
Mohamadans has historically countered criticism of their religion or prophet or Koran with violent responses. Their scriptures have sanctioned such attacks. That’s why Islamophobia is justified and appropriate. I don’t think all Moslems are bad people. Fundamentally, they are humans who are victims of violent philosophy of Islam themselves. It is our duty to educate them that Islam is evil.
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KS
August 28, 2020
@TambiDude:
Thats what I too have been trying to point out from the beginning, that Islamophobia is not always some irrational hatred fueled by xenophobia or media lies. Even if you’re naturally soft and broad-minded, living in a Muslim-dominated society really challenges your commitment to respect and trust their religion. So even in India where they are a minority (are they, actually?) its best to not be naive and let our guard down.
Not interfering in their beliefs and practices sounds reasonable, but often their beliefs impinge on fairness in indirect ways. For instance, consider halal meat. So they believe in a certain religious certification for their meat, whats our problem, right? Wrong. Halal certification involves very discriminatory business practices, like for example, the animal must be slaughtered a certain way by a Muslim only. In practice, this translates to the Halal meat suppliers all being Muslim-owned businesses. Since the rest of us are indifferent about slaughter certifications while Muslims demand Halal, this means that Muslims end up unfairly edging out competitors and monopolizing an entire business purely because of discriminatory practices conveniently rooted in religious beliefs. So when Muslims demand Halal, its not just about following their religious beliefs, its also about sneakily ensuring that only Muslims control an entire industry. If this doesn’t sound like discrimination, try replacing Muslims with brahmins and consider that hypothetical scenario.
Many of the right-wing tropes used to vilify Islam have some underlying truth to them. Take love jihad, mocked by liberals as a baseless conspiracy theory. I have seen it happen from close quarters. When I was in the middle-east, the sister of a close family friend was in a relationship with a Muslim man who was modern and progressive, or so we thought. When they decided to get married (nothing much our side could do except sigh and woefully accept), the man asked her to convert, but just as a formality on paper to get the marriage registered smoothly according to local laws. She was all like “whatevs, emmadhamum sammadham, true louw is beyond religion” and went along with it. But in a few months, he started pestering her and then full-on demanding that she convert genuinely and become a true Muslim, only then could she be part of his family. It was a classic bait-and-switch, and she was by then too committed and cornered to resist. Was she happy about this? None of us know, since after she converted, even her immediate family lost contact with her and hardly got to meet her after that. And this is not a one-off case.
Love jihad needn’t mean that Muslim men have a secret group where they discuss strategies and coordinate to entrap and convert guileless women, with aims of demographic dominance. Its just the way inter-religious relationships often work when one party is Muslim. Even if the Muslim party is oh-so-liberal and magnanimously allows their partner to keep their religion, they’ll still somehow ensure that their kids are given Muslim names and are raised to identify as Muslims.
You might say I’m generalizing, or that these are all personal matters between consenting adults. It could be dismissed that way if not for the obvious discrepancy, where in most Hindu-Muslim marriages, its inevitably the Hindu partner who is forced to convert (or even if not, the children are raised Muslim). It rarely ever happens the other way around, and thats what makes this whole phenomenon suspicious. Maybe its our fault for being naive and weak, and not resisting such coercive attempts at conversion in relationships. True, which is why right-wing groups highlight this issue to warn Hindus to stay strong and vigilant against such bait-and-switch strategies.
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TambiDude
August 28, 2020
KS: You are preaching to the choir 🙂
Liberals are super smart. They want us to hate corruption but not the corrupt people.
Worse, they also virtue signal in the sense that many of them will not be willing to rent their home to a muslim tenant , but will express outrage when others do it. They must be ridiculed every minute.
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thoravazhakkan
August 29, 2020
“Liberals are super smart. They want us to hate corruption but not the corrupt people.”
And they want to hate Islamophobia which happens to be a legit reaction to unprovoked Kaffirophobia prescribed in Islamic texts which Mullahs preach and average Muslim either openly supports or remain doesn’t want to question(hence silently supports). Let’s face it, Kaffirophobia is unprovoked bigotry on the part of Koran and non Muslims are well within their right to react to it in a proportionate manner.
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Arjun
August 29, 2020
BR: Again, are you going to simply stand by and watch this devolve into a full-on Islamophobic space? I can’t help but wonder if you silently endorse the views expressed above.
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Isai
August 29, 2020
BR, I feel Arjun is right.
I get a feeling that some karma, dating back to CAA is waiting to bite you.
You need to close the thread, like you did in Sabarimala.
Please consider our request.
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