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Interview: TM Krishna (on his transformation from artist to activist)
Posted on July 6, 2021
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Baradwaj Rangan 
vijay
July 6, 2021
Is this the month of the ‘artivists’? Leena Manimekalai, TM Krishna…..
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Yajiv
July 7, 2021
“Krishna, you make nothing but strong points” 😂
From the short clip, this feels more like a chat between two old friends rather than an interview. Looking forward!
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brangan
July 7, 2021
The interview is up.
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vijay
July 7, 2021
TMK and Bombay Jayashree have sort of become the GVM-equivalents of the carnatic music circuit for you it looks like. Now and then you can try to get in a Sanjay subramaniam or an Abhishek Raghuram, just for different flavor
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KS
July 7, 2021
I second @vijay here. BR, please do look beyond TM Krishna. Surely there are other accomplished classical artists who are just as articulate and speak good English.
TMKrishna is less of a musician these days, and more of a full-time interviewee and unsolicited-opinion dispenser. And since he makes all the right noises, adopts all the fashionable causes, hates the right people, he is anyway entitled to all his perks (like book deals, lit fests, columns, etc.) and given enough forums to put blade, plug his books and boast about how he is a revolutionary social reformer transforming the world through art, and fighting against one-dimensional bigots. The shtick has gotten tiresome.
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Maru
July 8, 2021
Great conversation, brangan – terrific questions to a guest who has the intellect, expertise and most importantly the ability to communicate his ideas with clarity. Have to confess that I’m still a bit fuzzy about the final question that you drilled down on the “Carnatic soundscape”! I always look forward to the pieces you do on music, wish there were more.
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brangan
July 8, 2021
I have (voluntarily) interviewed TMK ON VIDEO just twice. The first was three years ago, about film music. This is the second.
I have interviewed Bombay Jayashri on video ONCE and in text ONCE.
Sorry guys 🙂
Maru: Thanks. I casually asked him if he had done a video interview about his transformation from artist to activist. He said ‘not in detail’… I checked out a few videos and the team agreed that he’d be a good fit, especially after his book on Dalit mridangam makers.
Yeah, I too miss writing more (not just about music), but the endless profusion of films on OTT and the smallness of the team made me have to choose. It became increasingly difficult to do written AND video reviews of all films.
But I am working on one piece now that should be out in August, I think.
But I must say I am enjoying myself as an interviewer. I have never seen myself as one — at least, on camera. On text, you can edit out the mumbles and stumbles. But here, you need to maintain a flow, like playing tennis — and I never knew I had it in me. I always thought of myself as a “writer”, and I really did not see myself in this avatar at all, and am quite surprised (pleasantly) 🙂
Never say never, I guess 🙂
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vijay
July 8, 2021
I watched the interview late at night and he almost put me to sleep. He seems to have a tendency to give longwinded answers a la Kamal. Being ‘articulate’ is not about your English vocabulary per se but its more about how you are able to communicate your thoughts across in a lucid manner. A couple of times even BR who was there was shaking his head and saying “I didn’t get you”.. or giving “come again”.. kind of looks, then what about the rest of us? 🙂
Also, I wonder what his peers and critics think about his musical moves and whether he is really all that rebellious ON stage. Now that might make for an interesting video piece, getting their thoughts on his music.
“On text, you can edit out the mumbles and stumbles. But here, you need to maintain a flow, like playing tennis ”
But even here I thought you had an editing team to smoothen out the rough edges. Like they can choose to retain the cut to TMK’s face when you are on one of those stumbles etc. Or maybe I am wrong?
But I think overall these videos flow well. Over the years you have evolved with the medium and even though some of us came here first because of the writing and may be miss it
more (especially for mainstream Tamil/ Indian/ English movies) the videos can bring a new dimension altogether, especially for interviews where spontaneous 2-way interaction can be captured better in video format. For only reviews, I still prefer the written pieces as of now.
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Maru
July 8, 2021
TMK is a very polarizing figure, Jayashri too doesn’t always conform to the Carnatic musician template so it’s not a surprise to see the lobbying against them. I look forward to the upcoming piece on music, as I said it’s always a pleasure to see those. I’m hoping that you have more time for music pieces now that Anupama Chopra seems besotted with Malayalam cinema and eager to do those interviews and reviews 😉
I think you’ve come a long way as an interviewer, I recall that your early days of FC interviews weren’t nearly so fluid and engaging. I also think you need a subject who is expressive and thoughtful for the interview to truly take flight, otherwise no matter what you say it’ll end up being a puff piece for film promotion.
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Madan
July 8, 2021
Long interview so I am again going to drop comments as I listen.
I don’t agree with TMK’s approach that everything and everyone is political. It’s even possible to some extent in theory TODAY in a democratic society where everyone has a say at least in name in determining who rules their world. But in what way would a Dalit in Thyagaraja’s time be political? Did they even have that much agency? I can accept the view that there is a politics inherent in limiting Carnatic music to a divine, upper caste music TODAY but I don’t agree that all and any art is political. It’s a popular view on both sides of the ideological horseshoe, I am aware, but I don’t buy it.
Coming to the question of whether Thyagaraja is about or more than Rama, I don’t think the complexity of his works by itself establishes that it’s more than Rama. By that yardstick, even our temples, especially South Indian gopuram style temples, are very intricate works of art. But is their purpose of being anything other religious? Where I would agree is a proposition that Carnatic itself doesn’t HAVE to be only about Thyagaraja’s (or other great composers’) compositions. I think there is a need for there to be more original compositions in Carnatic and for these to cover the gamut of topics rather than being restricted to that which is sacred. But what A given composition is about is not going to change now, is it? To give an example here, maybe a Jewish conductor out of his love for classical music would have no compunctions about doing his job for Wagner’s compositions but if you told him Wagner is not anti-Semitic, do you think he would agree?
Moving on…
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Madan
July 8, 2021
I agree more with you again on the word ‘raw’. Raw is also a texture in music. It is often used to different compositions/styles within a genre. In a genre like metal, RAW is actually a compliment.
It’s not an insult by itself of a way of saying that something is uncultured. It CAN be that, I don’t deny that some people use it that way. But if the word raw is inherently supposed to mean THAT only in the context of music, then you are basically compounding a past sin with another one in the opposite direction.
An example from sport: people say the sound of the old V10 3 litre naturally aspirated engines that used to be in F1 (before it moved to turbocharged hybrid engines) is raw. It is avowedly a compliment in that context.
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Madan
July 8, 2021
The part about Sebastian and Sons is brilliant and eye opening.
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Madan
July 8, 2021
Last section on evolution of form and aesthetic is, once again, brilliant.
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KS
July 8, 2021
@Madan: Its fashionable to drag politics into everything in some inane tautological way. Also, totally agree about the Rama part. Inspiration and talent often build on each other, and its unfair to isolate one and put down the other simply based on your personal worldview.
That is essentially TMKrishna’s problem. While most of his ideas sound very reasonable and convincing in isolation, he often lacks consistency. For instance, he is a purist in the sense that he disapproves of singing melakarta scale ragams because they’re not “organic”. And criticizes Ilayaraja for changing Mari Mari Ninne’s ragam, because the lyrics and tune are part of one organic whole. So changing the ragam is a mutilation of the essence. Sounds reasonable.
But on the other hand, a similar argument could be used to justify keeping Carnatic music sacred since its evolution is intertwined with (our) religion. When he sings Islamic/Christian carnatic music, the criticism is based on similar principles as his: that it is incongruous to transplant foreign religious ideas into an art form which developed organically within our religious vocabulary. But no, in this case, its all about expanding art beyond its narrow confines and definitions, Breaking barriers, art is universal, and whatnot.
Basically, he has some notion of what Carnatic music should be, influenced by his personal political views and ideologies. And he irons out any inconsistencies with his sophistry and obfuscation. After all, he is a glib speaker, and we’re all suckers for Tharoor-types.
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KayKay
July 8, 2021
I’m amused not to mention a tad stupefied at these comments about B constantly choosing TM Krishna as an interview subject when he should maybe pick others. As he’s mentioned, he’s interviewed him TWICE, and suddenly TM Krishna is the Carnatic Mani Ratnam/GVM equivalent?
Yes there are MANY artistes who are fluent in English and articulate, not exactly a rarity in India, but WHAT are they planning on saying with those words and eloquence? An interview needs to have a pop, crack and fizzle, like movie reviews. An interviewee needs to be INTERESTING. And whether I agree with him or not, and I do disagree with him on a few points, TM Krishna is never less than interesting and even entertaining in places.
I can’t claim to have listened to a whole bunch of singer/musician interviews but of those I’d say only Sanjay Subramaniam and Shankar Mahadevan come close to TM Krishna’s level of energy and passion when speaking. Hariharan, when not staging the odd disappearance up his own ass, can be very entertaining. Sudha Ragunathan, Soumya, Bombay Jayshree, Ranjini/Gayathri, Sikkil Gurucharan, Unnikrishnan-Sorry, all tremendous vocalists but in interviews come across as terminally bland. Haricharan, Karthik and Sid Sriram all bring a youthful freshness and exuberance but unless they’re deep-diving into some personal experiences recording a song, they’re a mixed bag. Yesudas-Dear God, save me from this “Tata” who when he’s not lamenting the state of the world or people wasting their time watching serials is aghast at the “modern dressing” of women.
I repeat, as an interviewee, when you SPEAK, what are you trying to SAY? The best interviews are when the subject is pulling the curtain back to give you an insider’s peak into his field or when he’s making a commentary about the nature of the art itself. In this aspect, SPB was the Gold Standard. Passionate, articulate and possessed of a joie de vivre that made him an interviewer’s dream, sharing nuggets of experiences of an era in film music which can no longer exist. It’s a pity we never got a B interview with him.
TM Krishna clearly belongs in the category of those who are commenting on the nature or state of his field, carnatic music. He’s talking about a niche field further dominated by a niche group and is using his clout and privilege to talk about the lack of representation in it from other groups who have clearly contributed to it and were then sidelined not to mention had said contributions appropriated (Can’t agree with everything in A Southern Music but it makes for scintillating reading in many places). I don’t necessarily agree with all he says (C’mon Krishna give the “tukdas” at the tail end of Carnatic music a break! They’re an ice cold drink at the end of vigorous, sweaty, Ragam/Thanam/Pallavi deep dives into heavy pieces, for many lay people like me) but I don’t see too many of his peers willing to have these conversations.
Give the man a break. And let him talk.
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hari
July 8, 2021
Definitely an interesting conversation. And gives a lot of perspective about his thought progress.
Some comments:-
What does one do after acknowledging that they are privileged? I have heard TMK say this quite often. But has he or the others given up on their privilege? Or if they are able to use their privilege for the betterment of others, then it is good enough? Ironically in the whole conversation ad for Park was getting shown, which one, who is not privileged, can never set foot on.
In the initial part of discussion he says it is the “chatter” that has made the music inaccessible and in the last 10 minutes I felt he goes on to do a lot of “chatter” about why one should know about the music that they are listening.
He also says that one enjoys music because that is what she is grown up with or something like that. Isn’t that bumkum? I like Jazz/Blues music, and never in my growing years I have heard it before.
Politics is vicious isn’t it? If I heard him correct, he wants to take out Devotion out of Carnatic music, that will definitely be construed as a vicious thought by some people.
I like his music, I listen to him pretty regularly. I have no idea of ragas or what the constructs are, but whenever I listen to him he takes me to a different plane, closer to god, for that I’m thankful to him.
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vijay
July 8, 2021
“I have (voluntarily) interviewed TMK ON VIDEO just twice. The first was three years ago, about film music. This is the second.
I have interviewed Bombay Jayashri on video ONCE and in text ONCE.”:
It definitely feels more than that maybe because of the non-video interviews/columns as well I guess. Didn’t you do the Proust questionnaire as well with Bombay Jayasri ?
And the “I am a brand” interview with TMK from way back? It seems like you have tracked him now and then over a 15 year period.
But I guess it’s more a relative thing. Its not the 3 or 4 times that’s the issue here, it is maybe that some of the other accomplished peers are yet to open an account in this space. Plus because of his controversial nature TMK has been well covered by others as well. So a bit of overexposure is also at play here.
Maybe the fluency in English criterion is limiting the choice of subjects? I don’t know. But then you did chat up Kalaipuli Thanu. Even if it was in Tamil, in terms of being articulate or exciting he would score a -5 on a scale of 1 to 10. 🙂
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Madan
July 8, 2021
“But has he or the others given up on their privilege? Or if they are able to use their privilege for the betterment of others, then it is good enough?” – Yes, I attack this notion too from the Left. It’s too much to ask of an artist but in general, I have grown tired of hearing Lefties talk about privilege because I know it means the conversation won’t get to more substantial changes.
“He also says that one enjoys music because that is what she is grown up with or something like that. Isn’t that bumkum? I like Jazz/Blues music, and never in my growing years I have heard it before.” – Yes, strong agree on this one too. I heard most of my favourite Western music from the age of 20 onwards. Both jazz and blues among those, just as in your case.
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Venky Ramachandran
July 9, 2021
I found this conversation very riveting. As a mridgangist who grew up in Mylapore, and eventually performed in the Chennai Sabha scene for a brief period, what he is talking about is extremely closer to home.
Few thoughts
– I am super glad that he is opening up uncomfortable topics and questioning the underlying casteism prevalent in carnatic music. I have closely seen the discrimination faced by government college music students at various spaces and their attempts to break into the carnatic music circuit. Today, this has changed a bit. But, I am super glad that he is taking this route to ask uncomfortable questions about art, privilege, caste, society.
– I have a problem with his underlying notion that “privilege” means you have to feel guilty about your identity. Today, he draws so much hatred among the music community, because he subtly enforces the need for them to feel guilty about their art patronage and their musical identity. Every community has their problematic history. Today, can we own that in understanding history and be comfortable with one’s identity? Constantly pushing the buttons of guilt and privilege is only going to worsen his laudable goals of social inclusion and social justice and more importantly, bring a dialogue in this space.
– I have a problem with his argument of musical form can exist agnostic of content. It comes closer to BR’s thesis about form>> content in films. If TMK uses this argument to make art de-religious, in the name of providing social justice, music would suffer. By arguing “Just Music” “music alone can suffice”, he is taking an absolutist stance, not so far from conservatice stance that “Music is all about devotion”.
– While I am thrilled that he is challenging the notion that music can be about individual, and above devotion, it belies historical understanding of the various complex factors that has made music evolve to the place where he is. Much like Brahmins love to quote Vedas to state that music has essentially originated from Vedas, he seems to make an argument just to challenge that notion, without understanding the historical currents that have shaped music. This essay in tamizh by Jeyamohan is a good primer on this nuanced topic: https://www.jeyamohan.in/37841/
– Talking of his book,Sebastian and Sons, he cherrypicks data and anecdotes to make the brahmin community feel guilty about their musical identity. My friend Aravindan Kannaiyan has written a very good blog post to outline the deficiencies in his book. http://contrarianworld.blogspot.com/2020/03/sebastians-sons-instrument-caste-and.html
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Venky Ramachandran
July 9, 2021
“that has made music evolve to the place where he is” It should read, “where it is”. Apologies for the typo. Talking of complex history of evolution of music, this is a fantastic read from Jeyamohan where he thrashes the argument of someone who says that music essentially originated from Vedas. https://www.jeyamohan.in/36363/
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Madan
July 9, 2021
“While I am thrilled that he is challenging the notion that music can be about individual, and above devotion, it belies historical understanding of the various complex factors that has made music evolve to the place where he is.” – Yes and this kind of goes against both his exhortation to be aware of one’s privilege and his assertion that all art is political. If the latter is true, how can he escape the reality that Thyagaraja did write his compositions with a religious bent?
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Madan
July 9, 2021
Not covered in the interview but he develops other arguments particularly in connection to Ilayaraja that I want to discuss here because they are again too broad/generalized.
https://openthemagazine.com/cinema/film-music-reinvention-of-the-classical/
“His music, the claim went, was Sanskritised and catered to privileged sensibilities: an interesting thought that couldn’t be easily dismissed. ” – Not true when you consider he was composing a Naan Yerikkarai all the way into the 90s. In fact, he has never forsaken his rural roots at any point. To which TMK says:
“Even his folk became layered with Western or Carnatic possibilities” – Not true when you consider a song like Megam Karukayile. In fact, if there is any kind of Western music it evokes, it’s black gospel music.
Which brings me to the point that you can’t paint all Western music in a broad brush and equate it to Carnatic to say it is all catering to upper middle class sensibilities. Raja incorporated a lot of funk and even reggae at times, which were both ‘subaltern’ genres in their environment. It doesn’t matter if Indian audiences would mistakenly regard them as posh. That doesn’t change their true roots. By the way, why can you not argue that incorporating Bach counterpoint in a rural song is reducing Bach to a subaltern level? Raja was exploring possibilities at such dizzying levels that generalizing it so that it conforms to already held political beliefs about music is not going to cut it. As for what he himself thought, he expressed in an interview to composer Bhaskar Chandravarkar that he thought the National Awards Committee was myopic in only giving awards for his Carnatic based work. And that he told off somebody who came to him asking him to save Carnatic music. Even if he wanted the approval of the Carnatic establishment, he only wanted it on his own terms, as with all things Raja, for better or worse.
PS: Raja fans already know this but Megam Karukayile came smack in the middle of his peak so the argument that he moved away from a subaltern sound thanks to the controversy over Orampo doesn’t work either.
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shaviswa
July 10, 2021
@Madan
I don’t think it really is worth the effort to make sense of what TMK says. He will say exactly what allows him to hobnob with the liberal left in the media.
So it is best to ignore him. I did not watch this video because I know what he is going to yap on. I noticed your detailed comments here and felt I would add my 0.25 cents here.
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Venky Ramachandran
July 11, 2021
@Shaviswa I too think often of ignoring him, but unfortunately, because of his behaviour, he is worsening the scene. There is so much that could be done when we dialogue on the realities and move forward rather than take antagonistic stances. In my mandram org, we have been doing the same. Yesterday, we had a fascinating discussion of how “tamizh isai” has so few takers when compared to “Carnatic Isai”. We had deeply stirring conversations with many Odhuvars who shared their painful stories of lack of patronage and how much marginalized they have become. When TMK talks of caste realities, I really wish he talks of how much carnatic music has robbed the sheen of tamizh isai and devaaram. There are so many issues around these. Framing these dialogues as “sanskritized vs rest” doesnt help anyone.
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shaviswa
July 12, 2021
@madan To your point on Raja being able to churn out pure folk later in his career, this song is a good example. This film was in 1992.
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Madan
July 12, 2021
shaviswa: Yes, or take the solo version of Maanguyile. Where’s the Westernisation in it? Maybe a pinch here and there but I guarantee that people who don’t like hardcore folk music don’t enjoy this song.
Or others like it. Yethamaiya Yeto is another example. Or Aarum Athu Aazhamila. We are not talking about exceptions here. There are so many songs that are simply drenched in folk and where Raja made very little effort to make it palatable for urban audience. He just let the strength of the melodies carry the songs.
Another reason why TMK’s demarcating music as ‘urban/Western’ is too broad to be applicable here is film music essentially had a very Indian sound back then. Composers composed tunes with a harmonium so the melodies then had more curve/gamakam and less straight notes than today. TMK should ask Karan Johar just how aspirational film music was seen as in South Bombay back in the day. Film music was seen as the music of the masses while the posh crowd listened to actual Western music (being even more coveted as imports were hard to come by in licence raj days). And there was overlap between both in urban middle class. My mother had heard stuff like ABBA or James Last growing up. But that was alongside MSV. It was just music. When there were fewer entertainment options available, people didn’t worry too much about whether something they were listening to was ‘beneath’ or ‘above’ them.
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shaviswa
July 13, 2021
Agree @Madan. My home had a mix of all three. My father would listen to carnatic music, tamil film songs (from the MSV era to Raja era) and western music (Jazz, soft and hard rock, Blues). When I grew up I listened to more Raja (and later Rahman) and hard rock, metal and some pop too. And to get these my father used to take me to some exclusive stores at Chennai which used to have these songs. The cassettes or LP records were very expensive and we used to get them recorded on Sony/TDK cassettes at Rs. 20 per cassette 🙂
When I went to college, I noticed that most people who listened to pop/rock were from the cities and the guys from the towns and villages were die hard Raja fans. That dichotomy was stark.
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Madan
July 14, 2021
“When I grew up I listened to more Raja (and later Rahman) and hard rock, metal and some pop too.” – That’s interesting that you were already listening to metal. From what you’re saying this must be mid-late 80s to 90s. Wow, where did you even find that stuff?
I can’t find the video anymore but a few years back, somebody (a millennial like me) shared how he was listening to some old Metallica thrasher while travelling in an Uber cab and the driver recognised the song and started talking about it. Turns out he used to collect lots and lots of metal cassettes from back in the 80s.
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shaviswa
July 15, 2021
@madan
As I had mentioned, my father used to go to some specific stores to get his songs recorded. I would get mine from that place.
Also there were friends from whom we could copy (we had a double deck music system and it came in so handy) and an uncle in the US who would send cassettes through people that traveled back home whenever I requested for some.
Yeah Metallica started it all for me too.
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Madan
July 15, 2021
shaviswa: I had to get into metal by reading up about it on the net since I didn’t know anyone who listened to the real, hardcore metal stuff back in 2005/06. I learnt of this band called Metallica and randomly surfed internet radio for their songs. I unwittingly unleashed Ride The Lightning upon myself. My God, it was like nothing I had ever heard. That was the first time I came into contact with music that felt completely unfamiliar (when I heard Beatles or ABBA or even heavier rock like Scorpions, I could at least connect the melody and harmony to some extent to what I had heard in film music and reason that Western music would be different in some ways from ours). My metal journey should have ended then and there but after the initial shock subsided, I was excited to find out more about this totally wild kind of music. And on and on it went from there.
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shaviswa
July 15, 2021
@madan ha ha ha I hear you. My introduction to Metallica was when I joined college. There was this group at college that were hard rock and metal fans. And added to this, the early 90s saw Metallica being nominated every year for the grammy – the Grammy Awards show was one of the windows we had on what new music was out there.
When I got my first Metallica songs played at home, my parents game the look 😀
If I listen to them today, apart from the nostalgia factor, I do go “Oh God!! Did I listen to THAT?”
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