This is a take-off on Madan’s comment in the MR-ARR interview thread, where he talked about my podcast where he says I said something like “this weird strongly mainstream impulse Mani has for one who wants to be trying new things all the time. “
I want to define what I meant by the word “mainstream” here. For one, there is no “non-mainstream” cinema in Tamil, and even those films (Nasir, Pebbles, and others that come under the recent blooming of festival-bound “art cinema” in Tamil) have hardly been seen by the “mainstream”. So if Mani Ratnam is a mainstream director, it is because he cannot be niche. He has to work “within the mainstream”, in a format that general audiences can follow.
So what is this format?
- Having stars
- Having songs
- Having (mostly) happy endings
- And so on, so forth
But why is Mani Ratnam special, the way Thiagarajan Kumararaja (another filmmaker whose sensibilities I adore) is special? Because in a less “obvious” way than Super Deluxe, every film of his is “avant garde” in some way or the other — and I am not just talking about the post-Iruvar phase, where he transformed into a different kind of filmmaker.
Take the 1980s films:
If you want to take Mouna Raagam the truly “mainstream” way, you’d say the heroine has been hurt by the trauma of a now-dead ex, she refuses marriage, but is nurtured back to happiness by the love of a good man.
But this is not the film at all. The heroine actively rebels against being married off against her wishes (a non-mainstream choice) until she has to because of a father who suffers a heart-attack (a stock-mainstream melodramatic device), and then her ego won’t allow the marriage to succeed (a tremendously non-mainstream choice) until she sees the man’s goodness and relents (a mainstream happy ending).
The same can be said about so many of those early films. I mean, Rajinikanth as a loser in love, losing his lover to his enemy, and later marrying a “non-virgin”? A story about a little girl with a terminal illness, with no individual protagonist as such, where the “family unit” is the collective protagonist? (Even in the “family-unit” Visu movies, the Visu-character was kinda-sorta the centre, the protagonist, so to speak.)
That’s what I mean when I say there is possibly no other Tamil filmmaker — 90s onwards (at least, earlier, there were K Balachander, Mahendran, etc.) — who has made such “non-mainstream” choices within the wrapping of a mainstream film, that can reach broad audiences.
A “mainstream” filmmaker would not even touch a subject like Iruvar or Kadal or Kaatru Veliyidai or Dil Se. Or even Ponniyin Selvan! Who would risk their time/energy on a genre that has been dead for some four decades? Who would ask his lyricist for words like “Aga naga“? (Is this the first andhadhi song in Tamil since MSV-Kannadasan’s ‘Vasantha kaala nadhigalile‘?
And I think a lot of this has been enhanced by ARR’s sensibilities. Mani Ratnam was already breaking formulas, and when he joined hands with a similar-thinking music director, they fed each other’s thirst to be “non-mainstream within the mainstream”. ‘Theera ulaa‘ from OK Kanmani is a wonderful example — the segue from staccato, high-pitched words to a “charanam” (if one can call it that) with a flowing, Carnatic-sounding portion.
Now, compare this — loosely — with a similar, parting-situation song like O paapa laali, my favourite in the Geetanjali soundtrack. That song is gorgeous, exquisitely sung and arranged — but it does not go anywhere you don’t expect it to. This is not a “fault” , or a statement that Raja could not do something else. I am just refuting the idea that the Mani Ratnam-ARR combination or the Mani Ratnam-Ilaiyaraaja combination was somehow “constrained” by the director’s “mainstream” sensibility — because the mode he works in is “mainstream” but his sensibilities are not.
Now, the Ilaiyaraaja question: was he not “non-mainstream within the mainstream”? I would say, yes and no. His genius in music does not need me to elaborate further. But I think his bigger genius was the way he decided to take his music to the mainstream. Yes, there are exceptions like ‘Thendral vandhu theendum pothu…‘ or ‘Ila neje vaa‘, with long melodic lines — but he largely kept his tunes short, metric, easily hummable and did the major non-mainstream stuff (his orchestration/arrangements) in the background. So as a “package” that pierces the hearts of listeners from nooks and corners of the state, ‘O paapa laali‘ is the better song, but as a piece of individual expression, ‘Theera ulaa‘ is better. (All IMO, of course.)
And it is with ARR that Mani Ratnam has gone the furthest with his own mode of “individual expression”, which is also a function of the times. (And which is why many viewers don’t like the new Mani Ratnam as much, and keep asking him to make movies like Mouna Raagam again.)
The other reason is that Raja’s greatest phase (the “IMO” is unnecessary here, because everyone is going to have their own block of time as a “greatest” phase) came before Mouna Raagam. Again, this is not to say he did not make great songs after that, but that “looseness of spirit” you find in, say, Poo malarndhida (Carnatic, prog-rock) or even a Maanada kodi (a staccato three-line pallavi, that segues into long melodic lines in the charanam) did not appear as frequently as in that golden-age phase. Luckily, we got Poo maalaiye, before Raja decided to go full-on symphonic (as a result of what happened with his own symphony? who knows!).
To me, Mani Ratnam’s and Rahman’s sensibilities are like those of MSV and RDB. In their best work, they will totally take you on strange directions, which you never saw coming.
I’ll end with Vikram’s introduction scene in Ponniyin Selvan – Part 1. Any “mainstream” director would have explained why he does not behead the Rashtrakuta king. Instead, we just get the change of expression on Vikram’s face (victorious and cocky to confused, in a few seconds) and the line that he does not want to kill ANOTHER defenseless person. (And again, consider this genre itself was a dead one, and a regular “mainstream” director would have tried to be as safe as possible. )
Even the 80s/early-90s Mani Ratnam might have had the Vikram/Aishwarya Rai portions as a quick prologue, so when we get to this moment, we “know things in chronological order”. But no. The explanation for that line comes before the interval, in two parts: one that is revealed to Vikram Prabhu and one that stays inside Vikram’s head and is revealed only to the audience. And trust me, very few people know the novel that well to make these connections, or would have even anticipated this flashback at this point.
So that’s what I meant by ‘mainstream’ in that podcast. It’s not art-film territory, but it’s not full-on mainstream either. My favourite part of the interview was when Mani Ratnam said: “I have fallen many times.” And yet, he stays away from safe zones as much as possible.
CCV did not work for me at all, but even there, you can see an uncharacteristic, “highlights-reel” kind of approach that worked well for the ADD audiences of today, who just want things to keep moving. And they made the film a huge hit. This, I feel, is the reason Mani Ratnam and ARR have been at the top for so long, despite “falling many times”. They have garnered enough of a loyal audience base — like Kamal did — that wants to see what they do next. “Non-mainstream within the mainstream” is a rare quality.
PS: I have not said all I wanted to say, but I suspect the comments will prod me to write more about this. And thanks, Madan, for making me think about this.
kk
April 25, 2023
Is it okay to tell you that the paragraph that starts with “The same can be said about so many of those early films….” has a spelling mistake towards the end where it should be protagonist instead of “protaonist”?
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Madan
April 25, 2023
“And I think a lot of this has been enhanced by ARR’s sensibilities. Mani Ratnam was already breaking formulas, and when he joined hands with a similar-thinking music director, they fed each other’s thirst to be “non-mainstream within the mainstream”. ‘” – Fair enough but that wasn’t the perspective from which I was approaching it. I am not looking at whether the song or score elevates the scene but vice versa, what latitude does the director offer the composer. And it is clear to me that neither Ilayaraja nor Rahman needed/need Mani to achieve full expression of their vision. Possibly Ilayaraja was least constrained with B grade directors who submitted themselves to him like lambs to slaughter and just wanted five songs from saar…or going back to the early 80s phase, when he worked with Bharatiraja, Mahendran or Balu Mahendra. As for Rahman, again, his albums with Shankar or Rajiv Menon are at least as adventurous (and at times, more) as anything he did with Mani and maybe his most out there album was Delhi 6 with Rakeysh Mehra.
I can tie this with Mani’s comment about needing to instruct Raja about what you want before he’s done with the scene (apart from the other part about where he and Rahman work on the songs after they are done to make them more accessible – and I for one would really like to have heard where the song MIGHT have gone in some if not many of these cases). Mani has a vision, then, about what he wants from the music of the film. Naturally, then, the composers he works with have to fit into that vision. So it is a quasi-version of what Rahman said about the difference between working in Hollywood and in Indian films. It’s neither carte blanche nor as controlling as a Hollywood environment where the music director is not supposed to outshine/overwhelm the scene at any cost.
So it’s not Mani, yes, who is constrained by having IR or ARR work with him. Why would he, it’s a gift anyway to have had two of the best composers of India working on all of his films right from the first one. I am not sure there’s anybody else you can use that sentence for. But for IR/ARR, they have to work within Mani’s vision and even to the extent it happens with other directors too, the degree of quality control Mani exerts is likely greater which also has the side effect of stripping away the more outlandish moments of musical brilliance that either might otherwise indulge themselves in.
On another note: ” But I think his bigger genius was the way he decided to take his music to the mainstream.” – Hmmm, not quite if we get into his early 80s stuff. Endrendrum Anandhame written in polymeters, breaking intermittently into 3/4 and fusing rock and Carnatic with complete abandon (and yet with every note somehow appearing to mathematically follow the other in Raja’s usual fashion) remains the most daring thing recorded for a film. Especially so for the 80s but even to date. I wrote about it in the book – that in the early 80s he didn’t actually give a damn if you found the song too confounding to bite into. It was from the mid 80s onwards that he smoothened out the surface and focused more on eclecticism instead (like Chinna Chinna Vanna Kuyil, which was still unprecedented for its time, but very, very accessible).
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brangan
April 25, 2023
Corrected. Thanks kk.
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vijay
April 25, 2023
you cannot compare Mani with outright mediocre directors like R sundarrajan/KSR to make a case for Mani being more of an envelope-pusher wihin the mainstream..the benchmark for a guy like Mani would be much higher, like a Mahendran or Balumahendra(who did moondram pirai and not vaazhve maayam when given the dates of kamal and sridevi) in the 80s, or a Vetrimaaran or Ranjith in contemporary times. and compared to these directors a case can be made that Mani does play it safer , or at least he is in the middle of that pack somewhere, his commercial success/failures notwithstanding..
Mani himself has said many times that he takes cliched scenes, tries to remember how other directors would have done it and then avoids those routes consciously and tries to do something different with it..that to me, is how a successful mainstream director would think all the time..how do i take something that I know has worked before and then imbue it with my own style(like heroes stalking heroines in 80s masala films, yet when Karthik does the same in Mouna raagam you dont get as annoyed).Rahman, incidentally has said the same thing too. He carefully avoided all the frequently used raags that Raja indulged in a lot(like mohanam or sudhdha dhanyaasi or bunch of others) and instead focused on Maand, Kaapi, anandhabhairavi etc in his early phase. Its not an organic approach but works well in mainstream cinema if you have the ability to bring something fresh to the table. And more often than not, thats all thats needed for mainstream success..nothing really pathbreaking
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Madan
April 25, 2023
Indeed, speaking of the Karthik scenes, Mani is adept at avoiding ickiness and seems quite fastidious about it. So…he is the only director who never got any steamy or erotic duets out of Raja. The plus side of that is no songs like Nila Kayudhu but on the flip side, you don’t get a Vazhavaikkum either which threads the needle and draws on the lustre of the song plus the charisma of the performers to exude steamy without being cringe.
And the likes of Vetri is whom I had in mind when I said Mani has this weirdly mainstream impulse. Or as BR himself put it in the podcast, he eschewes the chance to make a daring but small indie film about live in and makes a bigger one that an orthodox Paati can digest. That is, Mani comes across as someone who could easily play in a Myskkin like space but he plays safe instead (by those standards, while still being bolder than cookie cutter commercial cinema). My point is more that it is not so much Mani who enables ARR or IR to succeed as their own innate creativity and ability to subvert norms, which they have done many times when not working for him too.
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brangan
April 25, 2023
vijay: and more often than not, thats all thats needed for mainstream success..nothing really pathbreaking
I am not comparing Mani with KSR, of all people 🙂
You say “Balumahendra(who did moondram pirai and not vaazhve maayam when given the dates of kamal and sridevi)” – Mani got the dates of Madhavan and Simran, two of the hottest romantic stars of the time, and made KANNATHIL. Yes, of course, the styles vary — Balu Mahendra had a very spare style, Mani’s is more eye-catching, etc. But the point is the same.
But what is “pathbreaking” for me is that Mani has been doing this non-stop for 40 years, and across subjects/genres — and even with your example of Vetri Maaran, ASURAN and VIDUTHALAI are pretty mainstream films (and with Ranjith, RAAVANAN upended the Ramayana long before KAALA). Heck, in 2003, Mani made what is celebrated today as “hyperlink cinema”, with AAYDHA EZHUTHU. (And I don’t think, till date, anyone has composed or shot a better club song than ‘Fanaa’.)
And to do all this in a Tamil-cinema climate is — for me — really an achievement.
Here’s the rub: I think Mani and Gautham’s Romantic sensibility is taken less seriously (or as you say, middle of the pack) than the sensibility of a Vetri or a Ranjith, simply because of the milieus they work in. We have a way of calling a movie “rooted” or “cutting-edge” only if it talks about social issues in far-flung places, but really, OKK and VTV are pretty “rooted” films, too. Only, instead of social issues, they talk about emotional issues, which are just as valid.
Madan: Or as BR himself put it in the podcast, he eschewes the chance to make a daring but small indie film about live in and makes a bigger one that an orthodox Paati can digest.
I also said that the live-in is not the main point of OKK — that the film is rally about two types of love. I don’t know what is so “weirdly” mainstream about this. If this is weird, then I would like more directors to be this weird. 🙂 It’s a bitch of an industry to survive in, and when you make a daring (though problematic) film like KADAL that flops, I don’t think I’d question Mani wanting to pull back a little on OKK.
Also, why should Mani Ratnam play in Mysskin’s sandbox? Does Mysskin play in Mani Ratnam’s sandbox? Why is one more “artistically valid” or “more daring” than the other?
For me, what he did in PS-1 is as “daring” as anything any mainstream filmmaker has done. (1) You pick a long-dead genre. (2) Despite the biggest budget of your career, you don’t do a Rajamouli — you eschew the proven success-route and and play it as ‘real’ as possible. (3) You don’t “introduce” the galaxy of characters to spoon-feed an ADD audience.
And so on and so forth. I know a lot of people see it as a “rich” and “glossy” film, but the screenplay and making is as “daring” as that of any lauded indie-film.
PS: My point is more that it is not so much Mani who enables ARR or IR to succeed
Did I imply this anywhere? If yes, then I have written it wrongly. That’s not what I meant.
PPS: The plus side of that is no songs like Nila Kayudhu but on the flip side, you don’t get a Vazhavaikkum either which threads the needle and draws on the lustre of the song plus the charisma of the performers to exude steamy without being cringe.
‘Steamy without being cringe’ / ‘charisma of performers’ / ‘lustre of song’ – ‘Kaadhal sadugugu’, anyone? It actually has a shot of them in bed, making love, a bit in a shower, and ends with one of Mani’s loveliest mirror shots (where even day-to-day activity ends with sexual intoxication) 🙂
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Madan
April 25, 2023
BR: I never said you implied it. I was riffing of what Rahman said about avant garde. That Mani is hardly unique in giving him that space. Almost every director who signs up Rahman does so because of his propensity to push boundaries.
Re OKK, I am not saying, again, that it is something mandatory that he should make a smaller film but that I find it weird that he takes these pains to make his experimentation palatable for a biggish audience and plays safe to that extent. Like not even once in a while, just leave it all out there, the way Kamal used to (until he tilted too far that way, which is a different story). Or maybe there’s no there there. Mani said about OKK that Indians are like that and they will always marry in the end. So maybe a part of him is always balancing liberal and conservative instincts.
And sorry, as much as I love Kadhal Sadugudu for what it is, it is a pretty sweet love song and not playing remotely in the Vazhavaikkum space. Basically, even the sexiness is very clean and comfortable, not at all dirty, not taking one’s breath away, at least not mine at any rate. I am not saying that somehow makes him a bad director. I am simply pointing out that for these reasons, composers going with him can’t actually go that far out.
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Madan
April 25, 2023
Re PS1, the idea that it is pathbreaking for mainstream Tamil cinema is perhaps part of the problem of the larger ecosystem. I don’t disagree with the reasons you gave as to what it achieves that the larger universe of Tamil films wouldn’t have. But it is ultimately a film where I cannot really fall in love with the characters. I don’t mean love as in liking them or, heaven forbid, making role models out of them but simply loving them the way I love how evil Hopkins is as Hannibal Lecter or how unabashedly cynical Jeremy Irons is in Margin Call. I am not fascinated and I have given the reasons why. Because it’s a very busy and episodic screenplay packed with events more than it is about perspectives. Perhaps that was the best that could have been done with a two part film of a sprawling epic but as a standalone film, it’s still not very revolutionary and more engaging and entertaining than it is enthralling.
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Anand
April 25, 2023
To make a film as sensitive as Anjali in a mainstream format and in fact brush it with ET vibes .and to make Keerthana and Nandita Das as the main players in the KM climax with Simran and Madhavan taking backstage need loads of conviction and confidence .
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kk
April 25, 2023
An unpopular opinion, I guess. Subversion of an existing narrative doesn’t necessarily and automatically mean that the movie, in this case, Raavan, is good, right? Plus if a married woman falling for her captor while her husband is trying to find the dreaded bad guy is subversion then one can make a case that Khalnayak did what Raavan did back in the 90s, right? To be fair, I have never understood the craze about Mani Ratnam. The movies directed by him that I have seen aren’t bad but are not exactly path-breaking either at least from a story/screenplay pov. Gangs of Wasseypur or even Satya are far better than Nayakan, at least as a pure genre exercise. And within the mainstream format, a case can be made that people like RGV or even earlier, someone like Vidhu Vinod Chopra have made movies that are far more daring than that of Mani Ratnam. But hopefully, the book by BR will help in understanding the craze.
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musical v
April 25, 2023
“Why is one more “artistically valid” or “more daring” than the other?”
An artistically valid and more daring film can be felt by the viewer. There will be no compromises to make it more palatable. It is not only artistic validity but the daring or shocking element involved. The clever compromises reduces the artistic validity to some extent. One has to pay the price for being clever and also for being too daring to the point of madness. At the end of it the film’s arc should be valid enough to support daring or shocking writing and filming. Visaaranai or Viduthalai as examples?
As for pathbreaking films, let others name them.
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brangan
April 25, 2023
kk: I am not making a case for why you should like MR (and neither will my book), but more about why “I” like him and definitely think of him as a mainstream innovator.
Also, while cinema is cinema, comparing MR to Kashyap is an apples/oranges thing. You would not compare Gond art to a Ravi Varma, right? And yet, they are both “paintings”, both are “artistically valid”, and both are singular creations. And your taste definitely plays a role in all this — though, ideally, if you like “paintings,” you should be able to consume both for what they are/have to offer.
Madan: I don’t see ‘Vaazhavaikkum’ as a steamy song at all — more like a ‘let’s have some fun now that the car has broken down song’ – but to each, their own.
About steaminess in songs< I would argue that Mani wants it this way. He always tries to go against the grain, and so when the situation is sexy, he prefers the visuals to indicate the sexiness while the audio is contrapuntal. i.e. “not another sexy-sounding number”. Another example being ‘Naane varugiren’ in OKK.
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brangan
April 25, 2023
kk: This article by Hariharan may be useful in seeing Mani Ratnam from the POV of the Tamil cinema. The interesting thing is that Hariharan was himself someone who tried to make “meaningful new-wave cinema ” completely antithetical to Mani Ratnam’s cinema.
https://www.filmcompanion.in/features/indepth-stories/40-years-of-mani-ratnam-experimenting-with-the-desires-of-a-new-generation
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Madan
April 25, 2023
kk: I will meet you halfway on the question of how pathbreaking Mani is. I put it this way – Raja and Rahman are pathbreaking at a national or maybe even at a global level, Mani is pathbreaking mainly at the Tamil cinema level. But this is an inherently unfair yardstick because filmmaking was much more evolved in India by Mani’s time thanks to masters like Ray, Dutt, Bimal Roy, Satyen Bose, etc whereas so much ground on Indo-Western synthesis had yet to be covered when Raja came along. So, yes, as a Mumbaiite, I find Nayagan less pathbreaking than if I were from TN and especially that period because all the angry young man films had been done as well as darker parallel cinema works like Ardhsatya. Plus, the long shadow of Godfather to which Nayagan was paying homage. But there is no doubt to me that within the Tamil cinema context, his films both technically as well as for their approach to narration and characterisation were revolutionary.
That said, I don’t think comparing Nayagan to Gangs of Wassseypur or even Satya is fair because Nayagan came long before those films and paved the way for them. Like, you can’t complain that Beatles sound staid compared to Radiohead because there would be no Radiohead without Beatles.
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kk
April 25, 2023
I agree that comparing Mani Ratnam to Kashyap isn’t exactly valid. But as genre exercises go, Nayakan can and will be compared to Satya and GOW and so on, right? And I guess, because I am not Tamilian and I haven’t gone through the mainstream cinema of Tamil that much ( I have only watched Vetrimaaran, Thiagarajan Kumararaja and Lokesh Kanangraj movies) I will probably never get why Mani Ratnam is a great innovator. But I do like reading your views on things, that’s why I said your book will probably help me understand the craze.
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Madan
April 25, 2023
BR: But if he is going contrapuntal to the scene with the audio, it does line up with what I am saying – that he exerts a level of control on what he wants in the music which necessarily means the composer can’t have free rein the way they might, ironically, with a director who has hardly any vision of his own about the music. I will emphasize again that my perspective is purely from that of the audio and what the composer can or cannot do, not a criticism of Mani as such. Although, yes, I stand by what I said that he is squeamish about icky stuff appearing on screen in ways that, as in Kadhal Sadugudu or even Thoongatha Vizhigal, push the composer too in a safer or I should say less transgressive space.
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vijay
April 25, 2023
“But what is “pathbreaking” for me is that Mani has been doing this non-stop for 40 years, and across subjects/genres ‘
This I have already granted in previous discussions, that while his 80s contemporaries have fallen by the wayside along the way he has marched ahead through 3 generations.. (thanks in no small part to a number of factors like decent health, his core base support from 80s, his producer/distributor family background which taught him how to be economic, and actors who grew up on his films now willing to work with him for half their salaries). But that he has managed to stay commercially relevant through ups and downs and changing tastes is commendable..results may be mixed for me due to my evolving tastes but that aside, as a pure practical/human feat, it is commendable. Must be some sort of a record I guess, atleast in Tamil films if not in Indian films as a whole. Can think of only KB, but he too was mostly done by 1999.
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Madan
April 25, 2023
kk: All gangster films don’t slot in the same genre. Nayakan is a gangster melodrama like Godfather. Satya and GOW are part of the gritty gangster movie tradition that began with Scarface and which is most associated with Goodfellas.
Now is it fair to compare Nayagan to Godfather and formulate an adverse opinion of the former? I say absolutely yes. I do not personally adjust standards because it’s Tamil cinema and all that. Even Godfather wasn’t the norm. FFC made it a classic through his conviction. It was therefore a bigger risk on his part than Nayagan was for Mani.
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vijay
April 25, 2023
I think this would make for a more intriguing piece if you were to dig into it, as to why YOU think Mani has managed to stay relevant for such a long time while most of his early contemporaries have looked dated and have faded away quietly. Is that because of his command of the visual aspects of storytelling and his collaborations with finest of the technicians who stay updated? In corporate world, they talk about being a curious guy, a continuous learner throughout your career to stay relevant and scale newer heights. Maybe Mani is some of that, I don’t know, you may know better from having interacted with him..I think Spielberg has some of that which could explain his 50-yr marathon until now..
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kk
April 25, 2023
Madan: Thanks for your reply. I get your point but I am not totally convinced, mainly because good movies in each genre tend to transcend the genre. Like how you said Nayakan would be a gangster melodrama while Satya is not. I agree with that. But even then you can still compare the two. Like how Dark Knight/rises, a political thriller cum Superhero saga gets compared to Logan, a western cum superhero saga. Yes, the approach is different but they do belong to the same genre and hence you can compare the similar aspects or in other words the must-haves of a specific genre, in this case, a superhero action saga, between the two movies. As per which came earlier and hence we should be more lenient towards it kind of an argument, is, to me at least, a bit of a cop-out.
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therag
April 25, 2023
FWIW making a film on police brutality or caste violence in this political climate is not a risk at all – in fact I would claim it is a total cop-out (pun unintended). Vetrimaran and Ranjith deserve kudos for doing Visaranai and Attakathi/Madras (which are truly path-breaking), but Tamil Cinema has always dealt a pretty long rope to filmmakers who deal with violence (in one form or the other).
Bala is the canonical example. He made some truly out-there films, some of which were big hits, like Sethu and Pithamagan.
Mani Ratnam’s films do not deal with violence, and that is his achilles heel. Even in films where he can afford to show some blood, he chooses not to. I’ve mentioned it in another thread, but make some of the implicit police brutality explicit in Raavanan/Raavan and our audience would have celebrated it. Kamal Haasan has always used a liberal dose of violence or sex to pepper his difficult work but this is a weapon Mani does not possess in his arsenal.
Dil Se was an incredibly brave film to make in 1998, and it holds up well even today. But if you really want to take that film to a mainstream audience, you are going to have to make some of the violence explicit. I feel that is the real trick that today’s filmmakers possess over our yesteryear filmmakers. They can show anything as long as the subject matter is admissible and socially accepted.
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Madan
April 25, 2023
“Mani Ratnam’s films do not deal with violence, and that is his achilles heel.” – Or horror, or thriller (unless we consider aspects of Agni but that’s neither out and out thriller like Nooravathu Naal nor noir like Kahaani series or Badla). Mani is a kind of cross between Mike Nichols (personal dramas) and David Lean (historical epics) with a touch of Spielberg (one off in Anjali).
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musical v
April 26, 2023
It is not the novelty but the way one shows police brutality and caste violence. No two films can have the same impact even with similar themes. Whether it is pathbreaking or not is not the issue. A small film like Ardh Satya is remembered as a notable film, perhaps more. Can highly impactful films be called pathbreaking? Here I am not talking about the average film goer who just wants some songs, some clapworthy dialogues and the like but someone who thinks films are more than entertainment. Usually parallel cinema provided something different. Then we have mix and match films which tried to be mainstream with some creative innovations. Many embraced this. Hirani, Mani ratnam, Hrishikesh mukherjee and even Bimal Roy. A more democratic way of approaching films which pleases all.
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Madan
April 26, 2023
I would say impact and innovation are two different things, which aren’t mutually exclusive but also not necessarily similar. A more mainstream film is better placed to make an impact than a small film but perhaps the innovations in smaller films inspire the mainstream filmmakers to also move the needle? If I am not mistaken, Mani is an admirer of Ray and while he (Mani) keeps good company with many a noted filmmaker in that regard, Ray wasn’t making the biggest or even biggish films of his time.
Actually, staying with Ray, a very bitter example of the difference between innovation and impact is Ray tried to get Hollywood to fund a film based on his script Ajantrik (innovation). They didn’t but the script must have found its way into Spielberg’s hands for he went on to make ET with, of course, no credit given to Ray (impact).
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lakshmi
April 26, 2023
Is this the first andhadhi song in Tamil since MSV-Kannadasan’s ‘Vasantha kaala nadhigalile‘?
I thought this song from Naan Vaazhavaippen is another, no? Not the whole song, though.
Thirutthaeril varum silaiyo
Silai poojai oru nilaiyo azhaghin kalaiyo
Kalai malaro maniyo nilavo
Nilavoliyo enum sugam tharum
Mana maedai varum kiliyo
Kili thaeduvadhu kaniyo kani pol mozhiyo
Mozhi mayakkam pirakkum vizhiyo
Vizhi kanaiyo tharum sugam sugam
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brangan
April 26, 2023
lakshmi: Nice catch from the Raja era 🙂 Is the whole song in andhadhi?
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lakshmi
April 26, 2023
No BR, not the whole song, just the pallavi.
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hari prasad
April 26, 2023
The first 2-3 lines of the Poomalaye song were a bit Andhadhi-sh :
பூமாலையே தோள் சேரவா
பூமாலையே
ஏங்கும் இரு தோள்
தோள் சேரவா
ஏங்கும் இரு இளைய மனது
இளைய மனது
இணையும் பொழுது …
இணையும் பொழுது
இளைய மனது.
தீம்தனதீம்தன
இணையும் பொழுது …
தீம்தன…தீம்தன
ஓஓஓ..
பூஜை மணியோசை
பூவை மனதாசை
புதியதோர் உலகிலே பறந்ததே
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hari prasad
April 26, 2023
Moondru Mudichu had another anthathi song named Aadi Velli…
Aadi velli thedi unnai naan adaindha neram
kodi inbam naadi vandhen kaaviriyin oram
Ora kannil oora vaitha then kavidhai chaaram
osai indri pesuvadhen aasai ennum vedham
vedham solli mezhamittu medai kandu aadum
metthaii kandu thathai ondru vidhai pala naadum
naadum ullam koodum vezham pesum mozhi mounam
raagam thannai moodi vaitha veenai avazh chinnam
chinnamitta annakizhi vanna silai kolam
ennai avazh pinni kolla endru varum kaalam
kaalamidhu kaalamendru kaadhal deivam vazhthum
kaathirundha kaadhal manam sangamathil koodum
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vijay
April 26, 2023
also, it would be interesting to see how Mani fares if he again decides to work with fresh faces/newcomers like he decided to do in Alaipaayudhey or Kadal(even that had Arjun/Arvind swamy). Last 10-15 years has been pretty much with established stars and actresses who have to look good on screen. Seems like his next is also with Kamal and Trisha/Nayanthara. so, Does he need stars now to sell his movies like Sanjay Bhansali? Can he make a smaller film with fresh faces? More questions..
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Enigma
April 27, 2023
@therag and Madan, with respect to depiction of violence in Mani Ratnam’s films, Nayakan was considered quite violent for its times. I am old enough remember that there was a lot of criticism of showing of those killings and police beatings on screen, of course these would appear very mild now. Maybe MR toned it down post Nayakan.
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brangan
April 27, 2023
vijay: I am not ruling anything out when it comes to MR (and I would argue, mildly, that DQ and Nithya Menen were fairly unknown to the larger Tamil audience), but in general — ever since the power passed on from distributors to OTT — it’s going to be difficult for anyone to mount films with newcomers.
In the sense that the OTTs have a list of stars/directors on their pre-buy list. These are the films they pick up irrespective of the film’s eventual fate at the box office. So — on a tangent — box office collections have become almost irrelevent for movies with big names. Even if PS-2 or VIDUTHALAI make only one rupee at the box office, they are still in the profit zone thanks to OTT.
At some level, this is logical, because most people — even those who consider themselves ‘cinephiles’ — watch only the big-name movies. And this has skewed the playing field because, earlier, anyone could put their hat in the ring and make a movie, and word of mouth could make it a hit. Today, that happens very rarely. In fact, I can think of only a few recent non-star examples: LOVE TODAY and DADA, and to an extent AYODHI.
So it’s become near-impossible to get big monies for no-name films. This is very sad, but the theatre business for these films is also near-zero, and when even OTT/Satellite revenue is minimal, new filmmakers/actors face an uphill task.
I keep telling young directors who come to me with their scripts to take Arun Matheswaran’s route. You make exactly the movie you want. Show that you have a distinct “voice”. And then, even if you flop, stars will take note.
On the plus side, a Vetri Maaran does not have to worry about gore. Earlier, a film would never have much more because “the family audiences will not come.” Now, because you have already made an OTT profit and don’t care what the theatres bring in, you can show all the gore and nudity you want. And not worry about keeping family audiences away.
Of course, this is only for bigger films. For all the positive talk about the gory YAATHISAI, no one’s exactly running to theatres and I don’t think an OTT sale has been made yet. But I genuinely feel the director will get noticed and move on to star films, which is the only way to guarantee survival today. (And which is why stars are getting paid far more than what their films would earn as ‘share’ — because with OTT, the ‘share’ does not matter anymore. It’s just gravy.)
As I said, this is not about Mani especially, but just wanted to say how things are. And I do hope Mani uses his clout to do non-star films, though the industry buzz is that his next one is with an especially interesting star (no, not Kamal) 🙂
Enigma: Oh, not just violence. The lovemaking scene in ‘Nee oru kadhal sangeetham’, with Saranya wiping the sweat off Kamal’s bare back — that came in for a lot of flak, too. I think that was the first time missionary-position lovemaking was shown in any form in Tamil cinema. — 😀 (I don’t think, despite the subjects, there was any such scene in ARANGETRAM or MANMADHA LEELAI — though there were scenes of semi-nude women) Man, it would be interesting to compile a list of so-called “shocking scenes”, the reaction to which which seem LOL-y from today’s POV.
My favourite is the protest against VISHWAROOPAM., Heck, this is the first film in the WORLD (okay, I don’t know about films made in the Middle East) that shows a Muslim protagonist saving the world. And the Muslim organisations decide to protest against it. Sheesh.
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hari prasad
April 27, 2023
The opening stretch of Kadal was the closest I saw the sinister side of Mani , with that off putting joke on that prostitute who can’t keep her legs wide apart and the people breaking the leg of her , so that they can put her body inside the coffin and bury her.
Wish we get to see more of Mani embracing the darker side and have him basically say , ” Fuck it , enough of me being a nice guy for almost 60 years , let this old man unleash evil all over and surprise these mfs”.
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astro
April 27, 2023
some how i liked most of Manis earlier movies..roja, anjali, nayagan, agni n, dalapathy…except nayagan…i still find nayagan generic and it seems to have aged badly (i think kamal went overacting…)
Ravanan, KV, OKK, CCV, Kadal etc…dint somehow work for me. I am glad PS1 did work..
In the first phase, i think the style and story + music and songs was great- making it a wholesome experience. In the second phase, strangely the same elements were jarring. not sure if its me..or is it that trends and times change.
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brangan
April 27, 2023
astro: Oh, the songs definitely. I think KADAL made him realise that the older style of “cutting away to another world for a song” picturisation was not going to work anymore for the new generation. Even I felt the dissonance, and I grew up with his films. But I loved the song situations in OKK. They were “in the same world” as the movie and worked very well for me.
In general, I think films today can accomodate larger-than-life songs only if they are big-hero songs — like the mega-dances in Vijay or SK films. I really enjoyed watching “Chellamma” on the big screen.
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Heisenberg
April 27, 2023
//Aga naga“? (Is this the first andhadhi song in Tamil since MSV-Kannadasan’s ‘Vasantha kaala nadhigalile‘?//
I feel sometimes the maniratnam fanboy in you takes over and makes you forget facts :D..
“சாகா வரம் போல் ” is anthathi penned by Kamal for Uttama Villain.
கணியர் கணித்த கணக்கு படி
நாம் காணும் உலகு இது வட்ட பந்தாம் (வட்ட பந்தாம்)
வட்ட பந்தை வட்டமடிக்கும்
மற்ற பந்தும் போகும் ஆண்டே (போகும் ஆண்டே)
மாளா ஒளியாம் ஞாயிறும் கூட
மற்றோர் யுகத்தில் போகும் கறிந்தே
கறிந்து எரிந்தும் வெடித்த பின்னும்
உதிக்கும் குளம்பில் உயிர்கள் முளைக்கும்
முளைத்து முறிந்தும் துளிர்க்கும் வாழை
தன் மரணத்துள்ளே வைத்தது விதையை
விதைத்திடும் உன்னைப் போல் ஒரு உயிரை
உயிர்த்து விளங்கும் என் கவிதை விளக்கம்
விளங்கி துலங்கிடும் வம்சம் வாழ
வாழும் நாளில் கடமை செய்ய
செய்யுள் போல் ஒரு காதல் வேண்டும்
வேண்டியதெல்லாம் வாய்த்த ஒருவன்
சாவையும் வேண்டி செத்த கதைகள் ஆயிரம் உண்டு
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brangan
April 27, 2023
Heisenberg: Haha. Actually you should say: “I am shocked that the Kamal fanboy in you forgot the andhadhi in UV.” 🙂
I seem to have wiped out that movie from my mind. Keep meaning to revisit it, but am just not able to bring myself to…
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hari prasad
April 27, 2023
He even forgot that Moondru Mudichu had another andhadhi song like Vasantha Kaala Nadhigalile which was Aadi Velli thedi unnai and the movie had both KB and Kamal!!
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tamil thanos
April 27, 2023
@BR , a question from your Mani Ratnam podcast. Towards the end, you mention that he is a naturalistic filmmaker and not a realistic filmmaker. Can you elaborate on it? Don’t naturalism and realism go hand in hand? In the case of battle scenes, wouldn’t filming it like the Battle of Bastards in GOT make more sense?
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Enigma
April 27, 2023
BR, yes you are correct, the love making scene with Saranya created a lot of noise too. Come to think of it, the Om Namaha song in Idhayathai Thirudaathe scandalised the whole of Tamil Nadu. I was around 12 and was not allowed to see that movie. Sneaked to the cinema with an older cousin and there was bloody commotion when that song played on screen. Of course very tame when you look at it now, fit for Baby TV by modern day standards. Mani was more adventurous, in terms of depicting sex and violence, back then. He toned it down in the 90s.
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Raghu Narayanan
April 28, 2023
Kinda late to this thread….
@Madan – “But for IR/ARR, they have to work within Mani’s vision and even to the extent it happens with other directors too, the degree of quality control Mani exerts is likely greater which also has the side effect of stripping away the more outlandish moments of musical brilliance that either might otherwise indulge themselves in.”
Had a curious thought when I read this line…Agreed that MR will extract his pound of flesh when it comes to performances, not just of Rahman or Raja but of everyone in his team. And yes, the degree to which he pushes his team is, in all probability, much more than what any other ‘mainstream’ contemporary director will do. However just by this very logic, why should this tendency or approach end up in stripping away a moment of outlandish brilliance in Raja or Rahman? Isn’t it equally probable that this very approach of MR, as wanting to be as different and as non-mainstream as possible within the larger canvas of a mainstream ecosystem, this tendency and ability to take risks, could have very well pushed both Raja and Rahman to bring out more moments of outlandish musical brilliance than what they would have been otherwise ready for? Could it be possible that this very quest for risk taking and going non-mainstream might have pushed MR to begin working with Rahman, as he probably looked at Rahman as a fresh and fertile creative genius, who had not yet developed deep roots of style and conditioning and who came with an appetite for experimentation and differentiation which might have mirrored MR’s own approach? Just thinking…
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Ravi
April 28, 2023
That the song vasantha kala nadhigalile is in anthadi form in terms of the lyrics is well known. But it is also so in musical terms. I found this comment by “muraliny” in a Youtube video:
“Like the lyrics(andhadhi) which is a relay of words he set the musical notes in the relay of notes. In the pallavi 1st line starts with the note ‘pa’ (panchamam) and ends with ‘sa’(satjamam) 2nd line starts ‘sa’ and ends with ‘sa’ 3rd line ‘sa’ and ends ‘pa’ 4th line ‘pa’ and ends ‘sa’ Now charanam 1st line starts ‘sa’ and ends ‘pa’ 2nd line strats ‘pa’ and ends ‘sa’ …..
Now a trap. In Rajini’s portion the tune being same as charanams must end with ‘sa’. That means the song starts with ‘pa’ ends with ‘sa’. The lyrics pattern is same ‘vasantha kala’ for starting and ending line. So MSV altered the tune and ends the song with ‘pa’ and not ‘sa’ as in other charanam. The whole song starts from ‘pa’ and ends with ‘pa’ a perfect ‘andhadhi’ in musical terms also.”
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Madan
April 28, 2023
As a hypothetical, I would agree in theory that him pushing his team would get IR/ARR to go above and beyond. But in fact, we know both have given even more outlandish music for other directors. What directorial brilliance exactly was there in Sangaman, for instance? Or Kadhalan?
And I think Mani is just being polite wrt his split with IR. It had a lot to do with, variously, IR snubbing him by not appearing to collect Filmfare award for Dhalapathi (because Mani didn’t use Putham Puthu Poo in the movie), IR indulging Vaali sycophancy (constant references to Raja like Raja Rajathi Raja or Chinna Raasaave in Chinnathayaval in the lyrics, which Vaali himself has said he meant as a reference to IR), low budget for Roja and the IR-KB spat. It was too much hassle working with IR and when the Gurtu siblings presented a good alternative by way of ARR, he jumped for it. But I don’t buy that Mani was DISSATISFIED with the music of Dhalapati that he therefore decided to look for a new composer. Not only was it a superhit album, it was in fact fresh and different from everything IR had done before.
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hari prasad
April 28, 2023
Watched Ponniyin Selvan 2 , liked it a lot , that’s it!
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ItsVerySimple
May 1, 2023
So, you are working backwards from your conclusion that Mani Ratnam and Rahman do “non-mainstreamy things in mainstreamy space” or however you put it, and you have an example – Theeraa Ulaa – let’s not even get into if that’s a good example for the point you are making. (Because I agree with your larger point which didn’t even need Ilaiyaraaja to be made). But that’s not a congratulatory pat enough for this duo, so you have to somehow establish this was not the case before, so you go back to his previous collobarator, Ilaiyaraaja, and we mark the death of “looseness of (his musical) spirit” to.. say 1983 – I mean we need it to be clearly before Mani Ratnam, isn’t it, else the theory fails, and then there is his symphony (which happened a good ten years after 1983 and two years after the split with Mani Ratnam, but let’s move on), the criticisms he received for symphony may be resulting in the shift to symphonic music, short pallavi lines, etc., etc, and hence.. Eurekha! Were those “non-mainstream” things Mani Ratnam did in his Ilaiyaraaja phase not enhanced by Ilayaraaja’s IsThereButIsNotThere Non-Mainstream sensibility? Did Ilaiyaraaja’s Schrodinger Non-Mainstream sensibility affect Mani Ratnam’s films in anyway? Please pardon my Thamizh, எழுத முடியும்னு என்ன வேணா எழுதறதாய்யா? ஒரு நியாயம் வேணாமா?
The “Luckily” made me chuckle. Luckily, Mani got a song with that “looseness of sprit”, I suppose? Forget about MSV and ARR taking us to strange places in their best work, the somersaults you do in your fanboy exercises for Mani Ratnam & Rahman take you to some really strange places. Even if Ilaiyaraaja-Ratnam’s collaboration is rated secondary to Rahman-Ratnam collaboration, I am not saying that is what you are trying to do here, but even if it be so, on top of the phenomenal work they did, we are lucky to have this one “free-spirit” song? Please pardon my Thamizh again..
A fairer question to ask : how Mani Ratnam’s (pedestrian, IMO) song “situation”/placement in Pagal Nilavu could have fetched a song like Poomaalaiye?
Your writing is weakest when it comes to Mani Ratnam, A R Rahman & Ilaiyaraaja – that you adore the first two is no secret but Raaja… I recall a comment your friend (IIRC) personally shared with you after some article you wrote about Ilaiyaraaja – how you are always trying to “balance” and course-correct how he is seen and appreciated and I genuinely went – ah, someone else feels this way too. When you write about Ilaiyaraaja there is always a but. You keep measuring the praises showered on him – if anyone will go overboard. Raaja is a genius but his tunes aren’t free-flowing, doesn’t take you to strange places, predicable may be? Raaja is a genius but it is not really the tunes it is the orchestration. Raaja is a genius but you know what the directors say off-the-record? Raaja is a genius but the current modern sound… Raaja is a genius but imagine how Vairamuthu’s lyrics could have enhanced his tunes? (Related : one hour about some of the greatest music produced in Tamil films by Ratnam and Rahman but not even one question about Vairamuthu?) Raaja is a genius but why there are so many myths about him or where they are originating from? (Must be a rumination piece 😛 ) Raaja is a genius but why all this incessant tributes to him in the current days films? Raaja is a genius but what about T Rajendar who also made hit songs in the 80s and why aren’t people talking about others? Raaja is genius but why should I care if an album was composed in 20 minutes, the proof is in the pudding? (You also gush about being a Rahman fan and rhetorically wonder if any other composer is in “big projects” 30 years in the industry).
You are fully within your rights to make these comments, that is not in question at all, but sometimes you make me wonder : is there any artist that you write with so many reservations and such gentle put-downs? And compare it against your writings for Mani Ratnam, dragging him only because he is in this article, he gets a four-line appreciation for employing.. a regular Ellipsis in a screenplay. Or MSV, or Rahman. The difference is a bit jarring. Even with all that, this piece was.. interesting.
I feel compelled to add the customary disclaimers – This is not to say you cannot like another music director more than Ilaiyaraaja or you cannot make your “critical” observations about him. This is not even to say I feel terrible reading these stuff – for one, I came into Ilaiyaraaja fandom in 2000s – I have watched his worst creative phases unfold in realtime, have read valid criticisms about those and I am currently living through this nightmare of Raaja being thrashed every day on Twitter for his political affiliations, which no bingo-card could have predicted. Those feelings are not affordable in the current economy. And two – I know you genuinely like his music to get worked up unnecessarily over a comment you make.
May be many of your – for the lack of a better word – positive comments about him are all very functional, the usual மானே தேனே பொன்மானே stock-phrases, the writings and articles quickly commissioned against a deadline about his music are very superlative, barely scratching the surface. Whereas your gentle but-s, they don’t ring that hollow.
All of this, IMO, of course.
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Madan
May 1, 2023
“so you go back to his previous collobarator, Ilaiyaraaja, and we mark the death of “looseness of (his musical) spirit” to.. say 1983 – I mean we need it to be clearly before Mani Ratnam” – And, needless to say, this cut off point is ahistorical. I grant that no one is trying to be pinpoint precise about this but what is NOT adventurous or outlandish about the Vikram album, for instance? And MAYBE the Mani of post Ravanan days would accommodate the bohemian, transgressive spirit of Raja’s work on, say, Tik Tik Tik (I haven’t watched any of the ones between Guru and PS-1) but I don’t see where it fits in the films Mani did make with Raja. I am not going to go into the ‘but’ aspect and I think this is more about his and vijay’s pet theory of some sudden sharp decline in Raja’s work from the mid 80s, which I for one don’t agree with.
On the other hand, it’s entirely possible you’ve had your fill of a composer (esp one as prolific as Raja) by then and therefore the work he makes thereafter doesn’t scream awesomeness at you. I should know because nothing post Alai Payuthey ever did the same thing for me as far as Rahman’s work goes. But that’s me and my tastes. Something like the Lagaan album elicits a polite yawn from me but I respect that he is doing something else in a different space. Appo Raja mattum yen superman aagi adhe funk-a forcefit pannannum, if (a) the film doesn’t ask for it and (b) he wants to try something else.
The larger point I was trying to make is that beyond a point, films do constrain a composer because it is the director who sets the agenda and decides what he wants and the composer is essentially ‘programming’ the music for him. The song format allows a certain amount of liberty for the composer in India but there are still parameters within which he must work. This was just not so noticeable pre-Raja because barring one or two like Salil-da, most composers were much stronger at composing tunes than they were at arranging (and fair to say that some like OPN, SJ and even MSV were weak-ish at arranging). With Raja and Rahman, their control over arranging gives them many more options and in that context, working with a director who values specificity is a constraint, not a liberator. It’s fine if Rahman feels obliged to the man who gave him his big break and wants to credit him for avant garde-ness or whatever but as I have laid out in examples from both composers, they never needed Mani to give their best. SOME of their best also happened to be for his films, ambdudhen. Rahman’s own VTK last year was better than PS-1. Or Dil Bechara/Atrangi Re before that. I know this is just my opinion but I am hardly alone.
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brangan
May 2, 2023
ItsVerySimple: You are fully within your rights to make these comments, that is not in question at all, but sometimes you make me wonder : is there any artist that you write with so many reservations and such gentle put-downs?
Thanks you for that very polite diss 🙂 Really appreciate the tone of your post.
But what you call put-downs, I call (constant) re-evaluations — because, seriously, there is no other artistsI have heard so much of in my life. (1) Because of the number of songs Raja has made. And (2) because I have followed his career almost from the beginning. And (3), there is no other musician whose work I have discussed so much with my musician friends/film music composers.
But what can I say? I do not find the joyous abandon of a “varuvaai anbe” in many of the soundtracks he made after the mid-80s (yes, this cut-off point is not a FACT but my personal observation”) I am not a great fan of the THALAPATHI songs. I find GUNA far superior in emotion (“appanendrum”), invention (“unnai naanariven”) and romance (“kanmani anodu”).
In 1986, I find KADALORA KAVITHAIGAL a better album than MOUNA RAAGAM.
This sort of thing is better suited for a live discussion than a piece written in haste: now that you point it out, I regret using the word “luckily” for ‘poo maalaiye’, but given the perimeters/parameters of MY tastes and MY knowledge, that is the single most ‘abandon-y’ and ‘free-flowing’ (i.e. not locked in a format) song that Raja made for MR.
And one thing as I have gotten older is that I have no emotional attachment to artists anymore. I adore Kamal but DASAVATHARAM and UTTAMA VILLAIN did not work for me at all. I adore MR, but CCV and ROJA and THIRUDA THIRUDA did not work for me at all, and today I find a lot of GEETANJALI a tad silly. I mention these two names along with Raja’s because they formed the trimurti-s of my school/college days: (choronologically) first came Raja, then came Kamal, and finally, Mani.
And I have said this many times, but I far prefer the present-day MR to the one I grew up with. Whatever you may think about the narrative choices, PS-2 is practically a masterclass in direction/a director’s job.
Sometimes, I wonder if the over-adulation of Raja that I see (including the comments from Madan**) makes me want to “balance” things out — that’s a conversation I have to have with my subconscious. But I genuinely feel the things I write about in my reviews. When I say Raja’s BGM/songs did not work for me in VIDUTHALAI, I genuinely mean it. I am not trying to be contrarian. I know at least one soon-to-release film where his work is spectacular.
Also, my own tastes have changed. I used to enjoy BGMs that were almost running parallel to the movie. Now, I don’t like that approach all that much. Okay, I could go on, but I have to stop here…
** This is not a diss to Madan, who is a really valued commenter, but more of my perception of how he drags Raja into almost every comment about music; and again, that is his right/choice.
But when he talks so much about Raja, I guess I feel the need to “balance” it out by saying that MSV did extraordinary things with jazz and rock-n-roll.
Why? Maybe because I don’t want “facts” like “before Raja, all of Tamil Nadu was listening to Hindi songs” to form a false narrative. This reminds me of one of my favourite lines from one of my favourite films: THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE. “When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.”
Also, I don’t know if this came across in the piece, but I like listening to Rahman’s songs in MR’s films — as I watch them. Less so as standalone listens. Because I find the songs really “fit” very well in the narratives MR is trying out today.
PS: Thank you for this comment, because it takes me back to the older days when I would write a piece in haste and then continue the discussion in the comments space — and that would help me clarify my thoughts more. Miss that 🙂
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vijay
May 2, 2023
“Also, I don’t know if this came across in the piece, but I like listening to Rahman’s songs in MR’s films — as I watch them. Less so as standalone listens. Because I find the songs really “fit” very well in the narratives MR is trying out today.”
felt the same in PS-2. As standalone did nothing for me. But in the film, at worst, it didnt distract. But I have never felt, barring a few exceptions, that BGM scoring was Rahman’s strong suite, even in the 90s..but thats another more subjective topic for some other day.
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Madan
May 2, 2023
OTOH I have never denied that MSV did incorporate jazz from time to time in his music. And so did CR way before him. Big whop! Those are not the same things, even remotely, as what Raja and Rahman did. If you think that’s overadulation, then you just don’t understand harmony, period. There is a difference between composers imitating the SOUND of a genre – which is what they did pre Raja – and composers understanding harmony well enough to write a song chords up. Go on, balance it out by educating me, do tell me which MSV guitar arrangement has anything as complex as the first interlude of Ilaya Nila. Actually I have experienced what you do here with other MSV fans who also happen to like Raja. The moment I talk about Raja’s justifiably unique achievements, they will start pushing back. It’s as if praising Raja without finding a way to include MSV in the praise pricks them. Well, if that’s the case, you have to think about why you have that reaction to people talking about Raja. And the only reason I brought up Raja (and Rahman) in this topic is simply that Mani has only worked with them. It was easy to demonstrate with examples from both that it’s not true that Mani pushes them to achieve their best. So it’s not just your contentions about Raja, I don’t agree with your arguments re Rahman too. I have given the counter examples a bunch of times here and am not going to repeat them.
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vijay
May 2, 2023
which phase of IR is the most interesting/creative often ends up as a discussion on what you look for most in a song..and where do you come from? In that way whether it is 1979-1984, or 1985-1990, its all fine.
We just happen to have more examples of what WE like in a certain time period and we give it preference. for instance, James vasanthan often says that he thinks IR’s first 5 years were his most special, and I am thinking that IR did a lot of phenomenal stuff after 1981.
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brangan
May 2, 2023
vijay: That’s why it’s all so subjective (but within criteria that you can objectively lay out), and that’s why I said in my comment that “given the perimeters/parameters of MY tastes and MY knowledge…”
What do you look for in a song? Many Raja fans adore his amma/aatha songs because it connects with them at some primal level. Can I say they are WRONG? All I can say is they don’t work for me.
I would add another factor to this: the year/decade you were born and when you encountered Raja (and thus, where your “starting point” is). I — for instance — became an MSV fan AFTER being a Raja fan. Though I liked a lot of older songs, I did not think of them as anything special till I really started listening to them seriously.
If I say my cut-off point for Raja’s greatest phase is the mid-80s, it is… “given the perimeters/parameters of MY tastes and MY knowledge…”
It’s the same with any art form. To all the Vairamuthu deniers today, I just have to say they should have been there when he hit Tamil cinema like a gale force… I mean, who had heard sandham-s like ‘pournami neram paavai oruthi’ till then? And I say this as a Kannadasan bhakt.
PS: Does James Vasanthan say why 1981 is his cut-off period? Is there a video or something?
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Madan
May 2, 2023
” When I say Raja’s BGM/songs did not work for me in VIDUTHALAI, I genuinely mean it. I am not trying to be contrarian. I know at least one soon-to-release film where his work is spectacular.” – Well, again, I didn’t say a peep about your Viduthalai review. I don’t much like the songs he did for the film. And I can’t judge the BGM without watching the film (though the soundtrack is already uploaded on YT). This discussion is only about peak Raja. And in that context, forgive me for not feeling compelled to make politically correct concessions to the older composers who came before him. I have never said and never will that what he did within a purely Indian music context was all that far out compared to the others (though he did at times indulge in hair-raising grahabedam experiments0. It is his understanding of harmony. Not ‘orchestration’, ‘instrumentation’ or other vague stock phrases people use in film music discussions. Harmony, the bedrock of Western music – whether it is writing unusual chord progressions, independent basslines, counterpoints, you name it. The very reason you can’t usually conveniently slot a Raja song as jazz (the way you could a Mera Naam Chin Chin Choo) or rock-n-roll (Aao Twist Karein) is because he is not imitating a genre lock, stock and barrel but has his own perspective of a wide variety of elements of Western music and can confidently write parts that sound like his own and nobody else’s. RD could come up with interesting riffs once in a while (though hardly any as complex as what you hear in Netru Indha Neram, RD riffs were mostly purely rhythmic and catchy) and Salil did some interesting work when Hindi cinema allowed him to but the others were wholly dependent on their arrangers.
I will not participate in undervaluing the import of this achievement of Raja, esp given where film music part writing was before he arrived, just because it offends fans of older composers (and I happen to be one of those fans too) and I am sorry if it sounds like over-adulation to you.
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vijay
May 2, 2023
While James Vasanthan explains to a certain extent why he likes the first few years of Raja more, he doesnt go into details of why he prefers the early years more(maybe he wants to dwell on the positive aspects only)..he just thinks that the freshness was more palpable in Raja’s music in his early years..Like you mentioned, the starting point, the generation you are from, all matters to a certain extent. here is one series, but there are others too
but just seeing his interviews over the years I know that he holds the early years very special. I guess his own impressionable years and the palpable change in music approach that hit those in the late 70s/early 80s would have had a combined effect.
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brangan
May 2, 2023
Madan:Well, again, I didn’t say a peep about your Viduthalai review.
Madan, I am trying to be civil here — but who said you commented on my take on the VIDUTHALAI review?
About your statement, “There is a difference between composers imitating the SOUND of a genre – which is what they did pre Raja”…
If that’s what you think, knock yourself out. I’d say mixing Indian gamakam-s with jazz (both in the singing and the instruments) is not really imitating the SOUND of a genre — but hey, clearly no one here is qualified enough to “educate you” 🙂
I am done with this for the day.
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brangan
May 2, 2023
BTW, those who have mubi and have not seen this 1984 documentary, it’s a great one (especially if you love Ray’s early films):
MUSIC OF SATYAJIT RAY, directed by Utpalendu Chakrabarty
SYNOPSIS
Based on interviews with Ray himself, and packed with clips from his films, as well as rare-to-come-by footage of his recording sessions, the documentary follows Satyajit Ray’s journey as a music director and composer of his own work on screen.
OUR TAKE
Music and rhythm are inherent to the storytelling of cinematic genius Satyajit Ray. Like his films, his music is a multilayered blending of Western sense and Indian sensibility. This absorbing documentary explores Ray’s nuanced amalgamation of music into the organic structure of his films.
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Madan
May 2, 2023
” but who said you commented on my take on the VIDUTHALAI review?” – If you mention Viduthalai in the same para as you mention my name, it is confusing. Either you specifically address what I say or make a general observation about Raja fans. Otherwise it sounds like you’re including me in the group that has an issue with your Viduthalai review.
“I’d say mixing Indian gamakam-s with jazz (both in the singing and the instruments) is not really imitating the SOUND of a genre” – This is exactly what I expected you to write. Even if you mix Indian gamakam, the Western part writing is still generic and stock. Like an impression of what a jazz song would sound like rather than a composer writing an original song that shapes up to be jazz in some ways. I am sorry but this is a cop out argument. You don’t want to engage with the question of Western part writing pre Raja and post and it is easier for you to dismiss what I say as uninformed. Feel free to jump back in whenever you’re in the mood, but with examples where the Western parts by themselves are distinctive.
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Karthik
May 3, 2023
BR: I think for me the issue with your “defense” piece is not your claim about what Ilayaraja’s greatest phase was, which I agree is a very personal assessment, but my issue is with your use of that claim to refute Madan’s original point which is that Mani Ratnam’s mainstream sensibilities might be reining in composers to express themselves fully. As ItsVerySimple says, using examples from the ARR era would have been sufficient to make your point, but you went on to imply that the limited idiosyncratic expression from Ilayaraja in his Mani Ratnam collaborations was not because of Mani Ratnam’s sensibilities but because Ilayaraja chose to express himself less in that period. In my opinion, you have not made a case for that.
For instance, your statements here:
I am not a great fan of the THALAPATHI songs. I find GUNA far superior in emotion (“appanendrum”), invention (“unnai naanariven”) and romance (“kanmani anodu”).
In 1986, I find KADALORA KAVITHAIGAL a better album than MOUNA RAAGAM.
seem to me to prove Madan’s point rather than your own. If the 1986 Ilayaraja could do Kadalora Kavithaigal why did that expression not find an outlet in Mouna Ragam? If the 1992 Ilayaraja could experiment in Guna, why did he not do that in Thalapathi? Also, you make part of your argument with Oh Paapa Laali which, as you well know, was not composed for Geetanjali but was in fact plucked out by Mani having heard it years before. Here’s the relevant paragraph from your book:
At that time, he played me another tune. He said he’d composed it for a Devdas film in Tamil. I asked him to give it to me. He said he’d give it to me if I made a Devdas film. It was like seeing someone really beautiful and not being able to even say hello. When we sat down for Geetanjali, some five or six years after that day, I reminded him of the Devdas tune that he said he’d give me if I made a Devdas kind of film. I said this was a Devdas kind of film. He fiddled about with his harmonium and recalled the tune in a flash. That became the first song we finalized for Geetanjali. It was O paapa laali.
While on your book, here’s another interesting paragraph:
In Anjali, the songs were set pieces, like in Thiruda Thiruda. The songs were my front. They were my defence, my platform, to take the story of that child into the mainstream.
I’m generally less prone to make conclusions, and I like to let evidence and arguments keep simmering, but if I were to draw an inference here, I’d say this: In his early years, Mani Ratnam was pushing the boundaries of a certain kind of mainstream cinema— one that in content is more widely accessible than an Udhiri Pookkal, or Arangetram or sila nerangalil sila manidhargal, but one that in form would be much more cinematically expressive than the prevailing Tamil cinema. When it came to music, however, he was ready to experiment on how he used the music (situations, storytelling), but likely not so with experimenting on the musicality itself. It seems likely that he would have preferred songs that were more mainstream/widely accessible/easier to like. In the Raja years.
When ARR showed up, Mani Ratnam was an established filmmaker, and he could now push himself and his composer into newer territories, especially when his composer was a super talented young buck with everything to give. And that (IMO of course) resulted in the golden phase for Mani Ratnam films, from Alaipayuthey to Ayudha Ezhuthu (of course, I do have hope that PS-1,PS-2 mark the beginnings of another).
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Madan
May 3, 2023
“If the 1992 Ilayaraja could experiment in Guna, why did he not do that in Thalapathi? ” – And by the way, this is a highly contestable claim, given that just the prelude alone of Sundari Kannal is monumentally intricate and unlike anything done before, including by IR himself, in at least Hindi and Tamil film music. Merely because it is of a symphonic nature doesn’t mean it’s not experimental within a film music context. Nevertheless, the larger point stands that where IR had the space to, he was still able to experiment in 1992. And like I said before, in any case, a B-grade director offering a blank canvas or just an out and out comedy would free up IR a lot more than a director like Mani wanting something very particular for his film (which, mind you, is fair enough from his perspective and no-one is saying he puts his composers in chains!). IR had a blast with MMKR, both the album and the score. Mani was just not making that type of film nor has to date.
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therag
May 3, 2023
@Madan, do you have a link to buy that book you wrote about Raja? Or was that someone else?
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Madan
May 3, 2023
therag: The book wasn’t only about Raja though maybe 20-30% of pages were taken up by the Raja (and another 15-20% for Rahman). It’s called Raga 2 Rock:
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Madan
May 3, 2023
BR: I texted you separately but also putting it out here. I regret that last comment where I got confrontational for reasons I don’t understand now myself and apologize for it. I am taking some meds and while previously that never used to affect my reactions, it would appear to now and I have to be careful. Regardless that I disagree with the substance of what you wrote, my tone was inappropriate. If I could take it back aka delete that comment, I would.
On MSV, I wrote this in my book about I Will Sing for You:
” I Will Sing For You from 1973’s Manidharil Manikkam is very innovative for how it combines an English lyric motif (sung in both a Westernised manner and in a Carnatic inflection) with a Tamil one (rendered, again, in Carnatic fashion). For the I Will Sing For You motif, MSV uses a roaming bassline and a stylish guitar riff. This accompaniment continues even as TMS picks up the Carnatic Tamil lyric Attamenna Solladi. Goes without saying, the song is also a wonderful showcase of the repertoire of TMS”
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brangan
May 3, 2023
Karthik: Oh, I was not refuting Madan’s original claim in that comment — that was a response to ItsVerySimple’s comment. About THALAPATHI vs GUNA et al, that’s again a personal choice — I think most people will agree that THALAPATHI has better songs. Anyway…
Also, I want to clarify the use of the word “over-adulation”, which is again one of those things that happens when you write a comment in haste.
Raja — if anyone — deserves over-adulation.
My angst is more that MSV and the composers before him do not get the over-adulation they deserve, and if I sound like I am being “balanced” about Raja, that may be a big reason. Like, I am mentally mumbling, “there are many other composers, too…”
you went on to imply that the limited idiosyncratic expression from Ilayaraja in his Mani Ratnam collaborations was not because of Mani Ratnam’s sensibilities but because Ilayaraja chose to express himself less in that period. In my opinion, you have not made a case for that.
I am not saying Raja chose to express himself less. I am saying is “wild, god-like phase” seems to have mellowed into a gentler mode of expression. Even when I say I like KADALORA KAVITHAIGAL, I feel they are less “anything goes” than Raja’s song for TIK TIK TIK, say, from the same director.
Okay, this time, I really am out of here and will get back to this topic in another acrimonious Bitty Ruminations perhaps 😀
Madan: Seriously, no issues man. This is what happens when we try to hash things out in text format as opposed to having a healthy argument over a drink, where we can actually give examples and go back and forth with points more easily. No worries.
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Madan
May 3, 2023
BR: Thank you for your understanding and for being such a sport. That’s why this blog lives.
PS: I agree ofc that Kadalora is not a patch on Tik Tik Tik for the fun factor. Tho, Kodiyile is also one of the most soulful numbers he has done. As are the SPB solos and the duet on Mouna Ragam.
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vijay
May 3, 2023
“My angst is more that MSV and the composers before him do not get the over-adulation they deserve”
the gen that is prone to over-adulation of MSV’s era are senior citizens now and mostly off social media and blogs like these or not the most vocal bunch..even in the mid to late 90s when internet/forums were in their nascent stage that was the case and its even more so now..so you need to temper your expectations 🙂
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Madan
May 3, 2023
Let me offer a Mumbaiite perspective on the Raja overadulation.
Only in musician circles and a small minority of discerning listeners is Raja’s work known in Mumbai. And even among them, only a smaller handful would have made the effort to dig up at least a slice of his vast body of work in Tamil/Telugu. For most, he is synonymous with Surmayee (not to be confused with the coastal fish variety of a similar name that’s much loved in Mumbai) or Ae Zindagi. Hey Ram sank in Hindi so even Hindi version of Nee Partha Paarvai hardly registered here. And RDB hype, while deserved for what HE did, continues to overpower and overshadow the work of everybody else not named Rahman and that includes his own father whose accomplishments were no less than RDB’s. Speaking of Rahman, I am among a small minority of Mumbai Tamilians in my age group or up to 40s (unless you count people who moved in their 20s from TN to Mumbai) who knows Raja’s work well. Otherwise, mostly people are not interested in his work (not in the sense that they heard it and snorted at it but that they wouldn’t budge outside the comfort zone of the music they are already familiar with) and skip straight to Rahman. The older generation who moved in the 60s/70s or even 80s to Mumbai are – you guessed it – MSV bhakts!
So trust me when I say that while it may feel like IR is incredibly overhyped within the TN echo chamber, that’s not the situation – even today – north of the Vindhyas, as the old expression goes (and Mumbai isn’t even technically north of it). If people like me don’t keep shouting about his work from the rooftops, he will be forgotten in short order outside South India. At a national level, he must be the most underrated composer for the work he has done, in terms of its volume, his innovation, his consistency (in his peak years), etc. International cinephiles still revere Hitchcock who used to be able to shoot scenes without looking into the camera. Only in India could it happen that people think (whether they dare say it out loud or not) that Raja writing music without even having to play it is a gimmick!
I get that the fanboys’ willingness to circulate stories that sound suspiciously apocryphal doesn’t help (like, how could he possibly compose BGM of Nooravadhu Naal in 30 min, come on!) but take it up with THEM, don’t dismiss his skills with a ‘ho-hum so what’. I am not saying anybody said that here, just to be clear, but that the indifference or lack of curiosity towards his work would suggest such an attitude towards his achievements.
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hari prasad
May 4, 2023
https://www.timesnownews.com/entertainment-news/ponniyin-selvan-2-plagiarism-row-ar-rahmans-veera-raja-veera-in-eye-of-storm-makers-respond-article-99956152
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musical v
May 4, 2023
“For most, he is synonymous with Surmayee (not to be confused with the coastal fish variety of a similar name that’s much loved in Mumbai) or Ae Zindagi.”
Exactly. His entire contribution is summed up with just 2 songs of one film Sadma.
AR is lucky that he came at the right time.
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Madan
May 4, 2023
I wouldn’t call Rahman (or anyone of his talent) lucky. I prefer to consider Raja unlucky because he peaked in an era when it was much harder to transcend the North South divide. MSV suffered the same time, given that he was no less a great than any of the Hindi greats.
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Aman Basha
May 4, 2023
Let me help this thread cross 100+: AR Rahman’s albums for Ratnam till Alaipayuthey are GOAT. From there till Guru, they’re great or very good. From then, Rahman’s best work has been with other filmmakers like Delhi-6, Rockstar, Vinnaithandi Varuvayaa. Even Tamasha imo had a better album than OK Kanmani in the same year.
Also why is Hello Goodbye Priya from Yuva not talked about much? Asking since after Fanaa’s sudden popularity, I hope this song gets discovered.
Also, Anu Malik’s album for Asoka had more melody than Ponniyin Selvan albums, both.
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Aman Basha
May 4, 2023
Let me help this thread cross 100+: AR Rahman’s albums for Ratnam till Alaipayuthey are GOAT. From there till Guru, they’re great or very good. From then, Rahman’s best work has been with other filmmakers like Delhi-6, Rockstar, Vinnaithandi Varuvayaa. Even Tamasha imo had a better album than OK Kanmani in the same year.
Also why is Hello Goodbye Priya from Yuva not talked about much? Asking since after Fanaa’s sudden popularity, I hope this song gets discovered.
Also, Anu Malik’s album for Asoka had more melody than Ponniyin Selvan albums, both.
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Filistine
May 5, 2023
I think Mani Ratnam’s path-breakingness comes not in content, but in form. To a large extent, Tamil Cinema was mainly content-focussed till MR came into the picture – Sridhar, KB, Balu Mahendra, Bharathiraja… they really pushed the envelope as far as content was concerned. When MR came in, he brought in a significant change in the “form” of Tamil Cinema. In Mount Raagam, he took a garden-variety plot, but managed to layer it with a very lived-in, urban middle-class flavour. In Nayagan, Kamal’s ageing was done in a manner that had not really been seen before, Agni Natchatiram’s lighting technique was beyond anything we had witnessed. He also introduced a very collaborative approach to film-making – costumes, set design, cinematography and music all came together more organically. And MR drove this through deliberate and conscious approach to the technicality of film making. While MR’s collaborations with Ilaiyaraja were terrific, I think with ARR, he found a more willing partner. Both were happy to move beyond their comfort zones in each venture. In some sense, there is no signature MR movie, because he seems to treat each film as a unique entity. So he is able to make village capers (Kadal), urban romances (OKK, Kaatru Veliyidai), gangster dramas (CVV) and epics (PS-1, PS-2) even at this stage of his career. Across his career, he rarely found a niche to settle into. ARR is similar in the sense that he keeps changing his music sensibilities over the years. It is hardly a surprise that they get along so well.
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ItsVerySimple
May 5, 2023
BR,
If this is the same film that some of us are, very secretly, looking forward to, then this sounds exciting. I will ask you when you publish your review 🙂
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ItsVerySimple
May 5, 2023
@Madan – I read your comment about Nannu Nannuga from Rangamarthanda but lost trace of where I read it – I loved the song too. It is not a reworking of any of his old song. The director and Raaja made Anthahpuram earlier which had some favourites. May be the old collaboration worked in favor, or the new studio. Anyway, can never guess what fires and clicks for the old man these days 🙂 I quite liked Teri Nigaahon Ne from Music School too
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Madan
May 5, 2023
ItsVerySimple: Thanks! Indeed, I was kind of expressing my disbelief at hearing the ‘old man’ rolling back the years and coming out guns blazing. It was a shock in the best possible sense of the word. I don’t think he has done something so jawdropping in the fusion space since Appidi Parkirathellam.
I was moved to write a whole article about the song. I found it striking that this actually doesn’t sound far off from what indie bands working in the fusion space (think Thaikkudam Bridge) sound like.
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Madan
May 5, 2023
Also wrote this to explain in more detail what I have in mind about Raja’s Western part writing vis a vis his predecessors.
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Madan
May 6, 2023
Filistine: Since this Bitty Rum instalment was prompted by my comment, let me repeat where I was coming from. The point isn’t that ARR isn’t the best fit for Mani. He absolutely is. The question I asked is, is it necessarily the case that Mani’s films allow ARR to go to places he can’t with others (which is what ARR seemed to be suggesting in the interview). The case for this was tenuous (albeit not devoid of merit) even in the 90s (Gentleman, Kadhalan, Indian with Shankar, Rangeela with RGV, Duet with KB and MK with Rajiv Menon). Even less so from 00s onwards. I agree with Aman that their partnership peaked with Alai Payuthey. And this again goes back to the role of film music, specifically songs. A light romance with some scope for drama and melancholy is actually the best vehicle for a music director (which is why they made so many of them back when cassette sales was an important source of revenue).
I am sure ARR finds it 100% interesting for himself personally to work on Mani’s 2010s films but for the audience, it is debatable whether they sparkle to the same extent as their earlier work. And meanwhile, ARR has continued to give great albums for others (I with Shankar, Dil Bechara, Atrangi Re with Anand Rai etc) so it seems to be more the case that Mani’s films can no longer accommodate this side of Rahman. The last Mani-ARR collab which had some of the flavour of old was, not surprisingly, OKK. And it was still hardly the swashbuckling force of nature that Alai Payuthey was.
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