Spoilers ahead…
For a while, Bakkiyaraj Kannan’s Remo looks like Tootsie. A small-time actor (SK, played by Sivakarthikeyan) discovers that he has a shot at a part in a KS Ravikumar film, but only if he transforms himself into a female nurse. We await the scene where SK frantically hunts for help in the makeup department. What we get is a foreign crew that materialises out of nowhere, gives SK his makeover, and leaves. Who are these people? How did they know SK needed their services? Why am I asking these questions in a Sivakarthikeyan movie? Remo is less about convincing us that a man can become a woman than reminding us Sivakarthikeyan has become a star. He doesn’t just put himself up there with Rajinikanth, Ajith and Vijay. He puts himself up there with himself. He references Maan Karate, Edhir Neechal, Varuthapadatha Vaalibar Sangam. He’s both deity and priest. This isn’t movie-making. It’s masturbation.
Remo isn’t the product of a screenplay so much as a four-quadrant marketing exercise. There are many scenes with children. They love him. Some years back, I was doing a story about a school for tribals in the Coimbatore area. When word got out that I was a film writer, the first thing the kids asked was whether I knew Sivakarthikeyan anna. Then we have his core audience of young men. The lines targeted at their whistles keep coming. (“Ponnungaloda full time velaiye pasangala azha vekkaradhu dhaan.”) For family audiences, we get the scene where SK, as the nurse named Remo, is overcome by emotion when he witnesses childbirth. He then touches his mother’s feet. (Saranya Ponvannan, by now, can probably play these mothers without even being told what her lines are.) There are scenes that target multiple audiences at once, like the one where SK gets drunk (cue, young males) and his mother (cue, women) quotes the on-screen warning, “Liquor drinking is injurious to health.” We’ve heard of scripts ending up in the Oscar library. Remo’s might end up in an IIM class.
The star has his cake, eats it, and keeps dipping into the assembly line that runs from the bakery to the studio. A scene set in a posh café (The Brew Room) is counterbalanced with a song in which SK dances with beggars and road-maintenance crews. A scene featuring an acid-attack victim, depicting the horrors that women face from stalkers, is offset by the assurance that not all lovelorn men are bad, that there’s someone willing to marry this woman. A scene in which the heroine, a doctor named Kavya (Keerthi Suresh), calls SK “cheap,” for fooling her with his disguise, is instantly remedied by SK’s shrug that boys like him have to resort to such means to get girls like her to like them. Remo is what you’d have if Vikram’s multiple personalities in Anniyan became a movie.
If only a fraction of these calculations had found their way into the script. The film goes on and on, and for something that’s being billed a rom-com, there’s very little rom or com. (The biggest laugh, for me, came when Yogi Babu turned into a Gautham Menon leading man.) At one point, Remo and Kavya are driving home in a scooter. The vehicle stalls. Remo says it’s run out of petrol. Kavya isn’t bothered. “Night-u. Light-u. Road-u. Enakku romba pidikkum,” she chirps. I began to fear for her patients. Now, I don’t expect a “mass” entertainer to make much of the irony that what Remo is called at work (“sister”) is similar to what young men fear the objects of their one-sided affection will call them (“anna”), or that a man speaks to Remo’s “breasts” the way many of our heroes objectify their heroines. But with such an immensely likeable actor at its centre, how can a film be so charmless?
It’s not impossible to make a movie targeting a young-male audience, and with Anirudh’s chartbusting songs, and still come off like some effort has gone into it. We have Velai Illa Pattadhari as proof. Remo, on the other hand, is what happens when you put effort into every aspect of the film but the writing. PC Sreeram handling the camera. Resul Pookutty doing sound design. It’s like hiring a hedge-fund manager to look after your piggy bank. And what to make of the dreadfully miscalculated scene where SK, having decided he no longer needs to be Remo, attempts to burn an effigy of the nurse? The “leave your brains at home” injunction while watching these movies is one thing. Utter thoughtlessness, quite another.
KEY:
- Ponnungaloda full time velaiye pasangala azha vekkaradhu dhaan = The full-time job of girls is to make guys cry.
- Maan Karate = see here
- Edhir Neechal = see here
- Varuthapadatha Vaalibar Sangam = see here
- anna = older brother
- Enakku romba pidikkum = I like it very much.
- Velai Illa Pattadhari = see here
An edited version of this piece can be found here. Copyright ©2016 The Hindu. This article may not be reproduced in its entirety without permission. A link to this URL, instead, would be appreciated.
Sharmila rao
October 7, 2016
Was he glorifying stalking in his movie….and the last thing a woman whose face is doused with acid needs is a husband…so if she finds a guy willing to marry her, she gets her life back? This is the time we should put our foot down and boycott this kind of trash…
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
October 7, 2016
He doesn’t just put himself up there with Rajinikanth, Ajith and Vijay.
How conveniently you left out Kamal. 😛
On PC accepting this movie, I’m not surprised. Even when the arty guys in Bollywood and Malayalam go mainstream, they do some really good stuff. Being choosy is not a problem, but this man …
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shaviswa
October 7, 2016
Oh my!! looks like another bad movie.
BTW is Keerthi Suresh playing another loosu ponnu role?
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Lord Gooner
October 7, 2016
First Time Commenting Here 🙂 Always Look Forward to your Reviews
“He’s both deity and priest. This isn’t movie-making. It’s masturbation.”
This Made me Laugh Like Hell 🙂
Long Live BR 🙂
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
October 7, 2016
Remo, on the other hand, is what happens when you put effort into every aspect of the film but the writing.
Oh, what an insult to the legend. 🙂
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brangan
October 7, 2016
Honest Raj (formerly ‘V’enkatesh): There’s no reference to Kamal in the film.
About PC’s work here, frankly, Rekka was far better shot. Far more energetically too.
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Vijay Nandakumar
October 7, 2016
Looks like SK is calculating his moves too much and ends up having too much science over art in the process.
BR, keen to know your thoughts- is he trying to create a recipe of sorts in his bid to become a Mass hero? He definitely has the likability going for him but otherwise his steps seem too designed and point to an eventual destination rather than an organic flow. You can almost sense that the # of punches and the distance bad guys fly from his punches increase in a perfect linear pattern with each movie.
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brangan
October 7, 2016
Vijay Nandakumar: Oh definitely. Read his interview in this Sunday’s Hindu (should be out on the web tomorrow).
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
October 8, 2016
brangan: My bad, I was too quick to head on to the next couple of lines. 🙂 Nevertheless, Vijay is a surprise element, because from all that I’ve heard, SK is anti-Vijay.
Don’t think I’ll watch the film, but wonder what made him accept this one.
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Drunken Monkey
October 8, 2016
It’s been such a long time i have watched a proper masala film that’s made saying ‘makkal idhaan edhir paakuraanga’ (good bad ellan sidela viduvom). This looks like that movie. gonna definitely watch this.
To self: kuttrame.., aandavan.. ellan kaasu koduthu paakaama vittutu idha paaka porenu soldrene..so what is right? to watch this or not to watch?
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praneshp
October 8, 2016
@Sharmila: if you don’t like it, don’t watch it. If you want to really hurt Sivakarthikeyan/producer, pirate the movie. Please don’t call for boycotts. Flip this and make it a Kamal movie, with irrelevant dialogues about religion/god/atheism, and see how silly your call for a boycott is.
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praneshp
October 8, 2016
@brangan: Re PC, can you point out some examples of (what you think is) really good stuff from him? I can’t seem to find something that shows off his genius, like, say, Iruvar songs for Santosh Sivan. And I made the mistake of starting to watch his movie (Meera).
I met him long back when he was in the same studio as I was for a quiz, and he was really funny/nice to talk to.
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venkatesh
October 8, 2016
What astounds me is that this guy is now a chartbusting hero.
He is in the purest sense of the word, a manufactured hero.
An actor who has calculated almost exactly what needs to be done to become acceptable to the Tamil movie watching audience. From the exaggerated modesty in his interviews to the template of one city, one village subject, to the kuthu songs, to the homilies to the young men and then being the Anna personality to the kids. This is a master class in manufacturing a persona.
I have nothing against SivaKarthikeyan per-se what astounds me is that people are falling for it.
How is this art or even cinema ? This is something else entirely.
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Iswarya
October 8, 2016
As I wrote on Twitter, your review seals my opinion that Remo is the cinematic equivalent of biohazardous waste: one that should not have been produced in the first place, a toxic assembly line byproduct, a danger to anyone exposed to it and extremely difficult to get rid of. The raving reception of this movie among halfwits sets the clock back by another ten years in the least.
As someone who is engaged in teaching the idea of ‘consent’ to young people, you know what heartburn it causes me to see my work and so many others’ sincere efforts undone by these clueless goddamn wankers?
(I see that total frustration and social media exposure are rapidly pulling down my standards of decorum and acceptable language. Let me just hope this is a one-off occasion.)
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Iswarya
October 8, 2016
Darn.. I’ve never been so emotionally disturbed by a mere movie. Anyway, resuming my old self, absolutely awesome review. Laughed hard at how you placed him in the pantheon of gulp his own movies! And the product placement exercise of feeding on his previous films’ persona and the third-wall-breaking self-mythologising of naming the hero after his own initials? Boy, we can sense a sinister design from miles off.
Sivakarthikeyan probably wants to cement his position in the heir-apparent-to-superstar throne that every Tamil hero aspires to. I hope hubris catches up and he falls through, very soon. Chances are bleak, though. What you say you saw in that tribal village is what I saw among engineering students in Kovilpatti! He’s mindlessly adored by young people and it chills my very bones to think too deeply of the implications of that.
My only sincere hope now is that the rise of VS might somehow push this national calamity of a man into the shadows!
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blurb
October 8, 2016
It suddenly hit me. Sivakarthikeyan is the Donald Trump of Kollywood. He says and does atrocious things. And it rings with the audiences.
This is so disturbing.
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rajrrs
October 8, 2016
Haha.. Truly agree to every word written. He very much tries to impose the rise of his stardom to everyone who watches his movie. The sad part is everything is camouflaged with one line humour and his stardom attraction.
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sachita
October 8, 2016
When most people blindly follow a mass hero template (vishal, karthi, simbu, talented dhanush), I find it interesting that this guy tries to understand where his market is and tries to craft his movie.
But either way end result is same for us – unwatchable movies for us.
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brangan
October 8, 2016
praneshp: PC’s good work… His early films, like Meendum Oru Kaadhal Kadhai. I’d say his best work came with Mani Ratnam, especially Nayakan. Try to get hold of a good print of that film (not the crap prints on YouTube). The cinematography is world-class — even today. The sharpness of the contrasts, the framing, the unobtrusive lensing — gooseflesh stuff.
As for the non-MR films, I’d say parts of Thevar Magan, though the fight scene in the godown with those shafts of light looks very artificial and “lit up.”
I think his lighting style became both his biggest asset and his albatross. “Asset” because it’s such a “visible” style, the cinematographic equivalent of Sivaji’s acting, that even one who has no idea about lenses or lighting can say “ah, look what the cinematographer has done.” And this made PC a big star. Even in Remo, his name got some whistles.
Albatross, because in the absence of a strong directorial voice, this style looks very weird and artificial.
The cinematography in Remo is really nothing to rave about. It’s just a few rich visuals in songs etc. I saw some of the reviews of Remo and they all seem to be praising the camerawork, almost like a reflex. Like reviewers praise the background score the second they see Ilayaraja’s name. You wonder if they’d say the same things if it had been another cinematographer.
venkatesh: But why worry about art or cinema in this case? I’d just settle for an entertaining film.
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Kumar
October 8, 2016
Mr.Rangan, did’nt get the Anniyan reference. Could you elaborate a bit on that?
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praneshp
October 8, 2016
Thanks @brangan, that was a detailed answer!
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vijay
October 8, 2016
“But with such an immensely likeable actor at its centre,”
likeable in what way? He is as much likeable as a SUN music TV anchor can get with kadi jokes and such. I couldn’t sit through some of his so-called hits.
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Arun
October 8, 2016
I guess Masterbation is Ok unless it does not affect any one..Entertainment is purely subjective and as long SK can entertain people, organic or inorganic, Tailored or Hand Stitched, Template or no Template, He is going to be fine..Its about sustainability. Some of the Comments here assume people are like fools and idiots. No..They are not. Its too early to Judge SK based on this movie alone. I think He is just trying to do what works based on his previous work. His next film is with Mohan Raja which I am sure will be worth watching as Mohan Raja is a very sensible Director and will not spoil his hard earned name after Thani Orvuan. Superstar is a metaphor to undisputed Box office King. So any one who keeps the Box office cash registers ringing, He is the Superstar and if SK continues his Winning Streak for next 3 to 4 years, then Yes he is the Superstar But only time will tell..
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vijay
October 8, 2016
“I have nothing against SivaKarthikeyan per-se what astounds me is that people are falling for it.”
They always will
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
October 8, 2016
praneshp: True, in such cases it gives a much-needed publicity for the film.
Not sure, but IIRC, Meera is yet another ‘stalker’ movie (he was not the writer though). Except for a couple of songs, there isn’t anything good in the film.
brangan: Many thanks for explaining the PC phenomenon, which I’ve never understood until now. I almost laugh every time when people say Mani Ratnam got largely benefited by PC.
I still remember how people went gaga over SS, after seeing Thuppakki and Anjaan. Here’s an article in which the late Balu Mahendra talks about the reviewers’ version of ‘good’ camerawork:
http://www.frontline.in/arts-and-culture/cinema/cinematography-has-changed-so-also-the-way-films-are-made/article5184970.ece
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gnanaozhi
October 8, 2016
To all those hand wringing here about the death of cinema, or circle jerking about manufactured templates, the reality is that SK at least puts in some thought into it unlike other cookie cutter mass heroes like Vishal.
At the end of the day, not every movie is going to be cinema and that’s that. It applies to all the “woods” including Hollywood.
Fwiw I hate his movies, they give me a migraine, but I won’t deride him or indeed any of the other “mass heroes”. They put out a product that we Gautam Menon types (as SK or Dhanush might term us) don’t get. That’s pretty much it.
Ps I think that GM is also slipping as his recent movies have all been horrible, but the term fits I guess.
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Subhash
October 8, 2016
I, well, am a Telugu-speaking guy. More or less, except for rural subjects, most of the Telugu and Tamil “mass” films give the same feeling. I mean, they are somewhat similar. You can refer Baradwaj Rangan’s write up on Srimanthudu named “Wide-angle cinema”. I do not wish to comment beyond that because, I don’t want to stir up a hornets’ nest now. But, I would like to know something. Please let me know.
Someone were discussing about stalking here. Now, can anyone suggest a recent Tamil/Telugu film where stalking was not the way of romancing? I am curious to know. I ask this because, O Kadhal Kanmani was said to much sensible than many other films in this aspect and these two films share the same cinematographer: P. C. Sreeram. I don’t doubt his talent as a cinematographer; apart from many Tamil films, I loved his work in the song “O Priya Priya” in Vikram Kumar’s Ishq (also a stalking-kind of love story, heard it was remade into Tamil). I am not judging it, but was surprised that no artificial and additional lighting was used.
For the interested, here is the link of the song with subtitles:
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brangan
October 8, 2016
Box office of Remo:
http://www.indiaglitz.com/siva-karthikeyan-keerthy-suresh-remo-global-opening-day-collection-rs-7-to-8-crores-tamil-news-168784.html
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Ferdin
October 8, 2016
VIjay mentions his previous films.
Simbu in all his films says MANMADHAN VALLAVAN about himself.
Rajni says “naan nallavanukku nallavan-nga Thanga magan-nga” in guru sishyan film. Just an example.
Why using the term MASTURBATION to sivakarthikeyan for making references from his own films.
If that’s masturbation, then making refernces from Rajni or Vijay or Ajith it’s JERKING THEM OFF.
Masturbation is much better than jerking off others.!!!
The writing is not good and the director has to be blamed for it. And sivakarthikeyan can be blamed for choosing a stupid script.
Instead, using such term for criticising his methods and ways (which is already proven) for stardom is personal attack on his growth.
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venkatesh
October 8, 2016
@BR: “But why worry about art or cinema in this case? I’d just settle for an entertaining film.”
Oh no, no no !!!!!
All actors aspire to be the Superstar and yes there is sort of a template to it. However, Rajini arrived at it. It was not a conscious decision. I would argue that same is the case with Ajith and to some extent Joseph Vijay.
This guy is essentially meticulously manufacturing it out of whole cloth. His movies and his public persona has no other purpose other than to tick box a set of must-haves that will elevate him (hopefully not) and for that he is happy to cater to the baser instincts of the “young men” in the audience. There is not even the pretence that this is a movie and not real life with the constant breaking of the fourth wall.
This won’t do. It has all the hallmarks of a beginning whose end is someone getting “inspired” by Siva Anna to do something outrageous at the minimum and something infinitely harmful at the maximum.
What astounds me is that people don’t see this , it is not even subtle.
Anyone with the brain power of a forgetful goldfish can see this from a mile away.
It is not entertainment.
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Iswarya
October 8, 2016
praneshp: @Sharmila: if you don’t like it, don’t watch it. If you want to really hurt Sivakarthikeyan/producer, pirate the movie. Please don’t call for boycotts. Flip this and make it a Kamal movie, with irrelevant dialogues about religion/god/atheism, and see how silly your call for a boycott is.
I know this is not addressed to me, but please let me chip in, because I have been campaigning online for boycotting Remo. Please note that a call for boycott is addressed to the consumers’ end of cinema and not a state authority. In other words, we’re actively advocating a voluntary boycott by those who stand by certain values they share with us, not an illegal and underhand method like piracy (a crime) or an extrajudicial call for banning the movie after it has been cleared by the CBFC. It is a peaceful and democratic (and perfectly legitimate) way of expressing our protest. So far about the method.
As for the reason, comparison to a Kamal film is a terrible case of false equivalence because what Kamal may say in a film (even if it is deeply offensive to certain people’s sentiments) is not the advocacy or normalization of what the law of the land defines as a cognizance crime. Whereas stalking is (under I.P.C sec. 354D). Now to put that aside, let me offer you a better comparison: will you call a protest “silly” if it were to fight that stoner films must not be given a ‘U’ certificate? Once again to clarify, I am not even talking about films that deal with the subject of drug abuse to generate awareness about the subject or to engage with it thoughtfully, recognizing the damages it could do. So, it’s not even about films like, say, “Udta Punjab” or “Requiem for a Dream” which understand what drug use means. But, let’s say, a random Jason Statham or Arnold flick has the hero continuously using drugs and shown as not facing any adverse effects on their account, but proceeding to keep fit, drive cars, fight thugs and have a happy ending. Would you still feel it’s OK for kids to watch it?
That’s the way stalking is treated in our films. The ones who laugh it away are mostly people who don’t care because it’s (pardon my French) not their ass on fire.
Fin.
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Rahul
October 8, 2016
Venkatesh – As a north Indian, I do not get any of the references but I am very interested in your point. Are you saying that this actor’s real life persona and reel life persona are extensions of each other and that he integrates documentary elements in his movies from his real life?
Could you please give an example of this -” There is not even the pretence that this is a movie and not real life with the constant breaking of the fourth wall.”
To me, it seems like creating a fake persona like Borat or something.
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Mohan
October 8, 2016
As Iswarya has pointed out, Tamil cinema has slipped back by atleast 2 decades into the inane and tiresome movies of M.G.R characterised by lewd songs, embarrassing advances to the heroines yet with a heavy dose of preaching. Let’s hope that phase and its present protagonist SK fade away.
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sachita
October 8, 2016
“http://www.indiaglitz.com/siva-karthikeyan-keerthy-suresh-remo-global-opening-day-collection-rs-7-to-8-crores-tamil-news-168784.html”
God, but why?
His movies are actually hard to sit through. His USP was he was funny as an anchor but his movies arent even that. Clearly people watch a lot of movies in this state. By now I think we should be bored/irritated by these shabby ones. There is literally nothing he has done in movies that warrants this sort of popularity.
I dont get this.
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brangan
October 8, 2016
sachita: It’s a myth that a hit movie is a movie that’s liked. A hit movie only means that (1) the star is liked, and (2) the people associated with the film have done a phenomenal job promoting it, hyping it up, positioning it as a must-see. But none of this is the same as the movie being liked or loved or that it will be cherished in the years to come. It just means that the for a week everyone decided they HAD to see this film.
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piththan
October 8, 2016
do you seriously believe in that article and those numbers BR? Those are all paid articles and very much part of ‘manufacturing consent’ (to borrow from Noam Chomsky)
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Jana
October 8, 2016
A supposedly intelligent Doctor severes her ties with an engaged lad for the sake of a guy whom she doesn’t know just coz a lousy nurse looks at the girl’s fiance’s picture n tells he is a misfit for her. Even worse she falls for the guy coz he sends balloons n crackers on air and stalks her. A learned Doctor falls for A shitty stalkathon for no reason. This is the dumbest a well learned lady protagonist can ever be shown on screen.This is the dumbest script writing can ever get. PERIOD.
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shaviswa
October 9, 2016
I have seen a few movies of SK. Maan Karate, VVS and Rajini Murugan. I must say that I liked VVS thanks to the many gags and excellent performances from the leads – SK, Churi and Satyaraj. But the other films were utter TRIPE.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
October 9, 2016
BR : “It’s like hiring a hedge-fund manager to look after your piggy bank. ”
Killer line and summing up.
Its up there with my favourite comment on Section 80 U (Tax deduction based on extent of Mental Retardation certified by a competent authority) by jurist Nani Palkhivala ” The main beneficiaries will be the drafters of this section” LOL ……..and the makers of this flick too perhaps ?
Great review and well supported by awesome comments.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
October 9, 2016
Gnanaozhi : “And it applies to all the “woods” including Hollywood”
Superb !
“No one ever lost money underestimating the taste of the American public” a certain Marlon Brando
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Sharan
October 9, 2016
Director equivalent of Siva Karthikeyan is Atlee. It is no coincidence that director of remo was assistant to Atlee. The kind of success that Theri got and Remo getting is textbook example for how to manufacture success. These guys keep saying they are not behind awards and all that they want to do is entertain people. where is entertainment in these movies? I think fooling people is their idea of entertainment. Saw Rekka movie, got entertained and did not feel like I was fooled. Man, you should give it to vijay sethupathi, this guy does not fake a persona, an image both on screen and off screen. you need to watch interviews of siva karthikeyan’s atlee’s like, the kind of honesty and humbleness they show is puke inducing. why can’t they show the same kind of honesty towards their work ?
PS : why these celebrities try to be so humble in interviews? the more I hear them the more I am getting to like people like Simbu.
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Iswarya
October 9, 2016
BR: I just read the SK interview you spoke of and it’s CREEPY as hell! This guy’s real life personality would soon warrant a “rise of the anti-hero” movie like Pudupettai. Gosh.. His thought process is eerily similar to Sathyaraj’s Amavasai or Siddharth Abhimanyu in Thani Oruvan. And to think he has successfully pulled this con so far is all kinds of scary.
Here is the link folks:
http://m.thehindu.com/features/cinema/sivakarthikeyan-describes-his-ascent-to-superstardom/article9202184.ece
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pato
October 9, 2016
why hatred towards only sivakarthikeyan?? Almost all heroes do these kind of calculation while choosing scripts. If consumer likes some sort of product from manufacturer, why blame the manufacturer??
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Srinivas R
October 9, 2016
@Iswarya, I did leave a comment on his FB page about #BoycottRemo, but no one seemed to bother. I guess we get the movies and stars we deserve.
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brangan
October 9, 2016
Blue shirt’s comments on the “loosu heroine” are ROFL. See 0.20 to 0.40 😀
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Billa
October 9, 2016
I used to love siva during his ‘Vijay TV’ days. He used to be that friend who lit up the room with his sheer presence and lovable charm. And when he ventured into acting, I genuinely wanted him to succeed. Cause, it felt like seeing one of our own on screen. Someone who could have been anybody around us, but just ended up being on screen. He was a star, yes, but someone who deserved the stardom bestowed on him. I found his earlier movies mediocre, even though he hadn’t lost his skills at making you laugh, making you feel like you knew him even though you didn’t. Now, all he want to be is just another superstar, another heartthrob. He could the next superstar if he chooses the right movies that play into his strong zones.
He could definitely take a cue from Nani in telugu cinema. I would love seeing him in something like Krishna Gaadi Veera Prema Katha.
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lowlylaureate
October 9, 2016
Remo made us very angry, hence we wrote this
Thanks
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Rohit Sathish Nair
October 10, 2016
How similar or different is this movie to Avvai Shanmughi, where again, another kind of stalking did take place?
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pato
October 10, 2016
I don’t think its justified to call avai shanmugi as a movie that glorified stalking. Kamal wanted to be with his daughter,that’s the main reason for his lady getup in the movie. Comparing remo with avai shanmugi is kind of disrespectful to avai shanmugi. Remo was neither funny nor romantic. All it did was exploit foolishness of people.
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Rohit Sathish Nair
October 10, 2016
You take the bare-bones definition of stalking:’Stalking is unwanted or obsessive attention by an individual or group towards another person’ or simply ‘ pursuing or approaching stealthily ‘, Avvai Shanmughi does qualify, does it?
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Aadhy
October 10, 2016
Rohit Sathish Nair : The scene where the cross-dressed Sivakarthikeyan cooks up a female name for himself, in desperation, is straight out of Avvai Shanmugi. It’s not just similar, it’s the same. The floundering, frantic lookout for ideas, blurting out a famous name and then customizing it to a more supposedly believable name.
And does our heroine find it suspicious that the name sounds ridiculously made up? Of course not. She is busy with other things like coming up with an even weirder nickname to that made up name. I wonder if Keerthy Suresh is all set to become Tamizh terinja Hansika Motwani, considering her enviable track record of picking such roles.
I know this movie is not something in which we should look for continuous character arcs. But the first 15 minutes are entirely devoted to the hero’s dream of becoming a star and his struggle to get that first break, and then. Then, well I found a lot more things to be angry at.
BR, as an aside, could this be a McGuffin like the loan in Aandavan Kattalai? SK’ career ambitions, only to make him turn into a nurse and kick-off the stalkathon that follows.
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Adithyan
October 10, 2016
Rohit Sathish Nair:’Stalking is unwanted or obsessive attention by an individual or group towards another person’ or simply ‘ pursuing or approaching stealthily ‘, Avvai Shanmughi does qualify, does it?
Nope
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Jaga_Jaga
October 11, 2016
BR: Horrible review! Why have you been so kind to this movie? To call it masturbation is very inappropriate. “Masturbation with a flaccid dick” would have been the right description. The only thing “hard” about it, was to watch the movie itself!
And no this movie is not just about loosu ponnus, loosu paatis et. al. It is also loosu audience.
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shaviswa
October 11, 2016
I don’t see what is the fuss about SK making his moves to be a star or keeping an eye on the market when he chooses his films. This is what modern film making is all about, isn’t it? How else can one explain the rise of actors like Hrithik Roshan, Ranbir Kapoor, Ranvir Singh, etc.? How do you think Vijay and Dhanush became stars? They were so carefully promoted by their parents. Similarly about Mahesh Babu, Ravi Teja, Naga Chaitanya, etc. in Telugu. It is all about branding and promotion. SK seems to have learnt that game pretty well and is able to market himself as he is without a Godfather in the industry.
Remo may be a horrible movie. But if it works for SK and his fan clubs, then we cannot complain about that.
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Amit Joki
October 11, 2016
Film making has become business. And it will continue to remain the same.
The films now a days are filled with crowd appeasing lines and since the crowd here refers to mostly males, things go awry when sensible people sit through such films.
When we have a director who so loves his work that his love for the way camera moves amuses him than Katrina’s, we wouldn’t have such films.
What power a director possesses! To see such power being wasted as mere occupation that earns money, baffles me to an extent I can’t explain.
I can very well imagine these so called directors sitting with writers and discussing which line would bring the house down.
What baffles me more is that SK has more female fans too.
I was irked when I saw the promo wherein Siva tells motho avangala engala ala vekka kudaathunu sollu for aambalanga alaga kudaathuda line by his mom.
Don’t they feel irked? Afaik, I guess no. As for the line that BR emphasises, I immediately asked myself, aama avangalku vera vela illa?
Such atrocities will continue. Let’s continue to rant as well.
P.S Some people are too unconventional(ugly even to some?) in their looks that no amount of branding by their fathers would help. And that Ranbir and Ranvir are excellent talents themselves first and that the most influential father Big B could do nothing to the career of Jr. Bachchan. It is pitiable therefore that people’s success would be attributed to their fathers.
As for the acid attack scene, the notion that her life is given back to her and that too through the means of as trivial as a marriage is just an insult to humanity and also goes to show what value these directors assign to such girls.
Disgusting stuff.
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Uncouth Village Youth
October 11, 2016
Can’t understand all the SK hatred here. There could be multiple reasons :
a) Jealousy : Here is a very ordinary person, without any special talent and has made it big in Kollywood. I have seen that we like it when someone suffers, so that we can go out and help them, and get pissed off when the same guy makes it big without our help. So they liked SK when he was on television and then suddenly don’t like him when he is on the big screen..
b) Hypocrisy : Resume padding/ambitious planning happens everywhere – from the Software Engineer who claims to have architechted a large project, to the CEO who turned around the company with nothing but his business acumen, to a CM whose state flowed with milk and honey during his reign. I absolutely don’t know what is wrong in all this – we see hyped products all around us everywhere – if this guy does it well all credit to him. May be we don’t like it that he has pulled off the con so well,when most of us are busted in the next interview :P. Criticize the movie for it’s content, not the star for his intent – which is the same as all of us $$
c) Elitism (especially in this forum) : The circle jerk that happens over GVM,MR is ample proof enough – justifying stalking in their movies while asking for a boycott of other films – all love whether in movies/real life starts with a certain amount of stalking, period. The threshold when ‘romance’ turns to stalking varies though. People are conditioned to think that certain styles/persons/progeny are somehow superior in their sub conscious mind. Take the typical road map of any star son/daughter in the industry. They first get launched in trashy films (with Sanghavi/Reema Sen types), then suddenly some star director ‘reforms them, and they immediately become ‘good’ actors. This is why nobody hates Gautam karthik, Vikram Prabhu, Simbu, Vijay, Vishal, Jeeva with the same intensity. I am really happy that somebody like SK has broken through, without any backing and has sustained in the industry through intelligent marketing/ branding. This is exactly similar to Aussies deriding Ashwin’s records in the Cricinfo comments.
A random, unhinged rant I know – but be informed that this was typed behind the back of a very smart PM.
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vijay
October 11, 2016
:And no this movie is not just about loosu ponnus, loosu paatis et. al. It is also loosu audience.”
:-))))))))))
Idha sollunga modhalla..
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Jaga_Jaga
October 12, 2016
Hey uncouth village youth, if you read the reviews/comments carefully, I don’t think BR/other sensible people talk bad about SK himself. it is this stupid movie. It was dead boring man! “Charmless” to use BR’s words. SK or anyone else has their own rights/lefts/tops/bottoms to do what works for them. But the point is “Remo” doesn’t work. You throw in a bunch of awesome gags (which Remo did have) with lots and lots and lots of meaningless scenes – and lo what you get is “Remo”! I would even rate “9 la guru” as a better movie than “Remo” – despite SK’s tremendous hard-work. That I guess is the same point BR is making here. When SK exudes so much charm, why is this movie so damn, dead boring (“marana mokkai” in Tamil lingo)?
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arun
October 12, 2016
@BR..I was assuming that this blog is more about expressing Opinions and having Meaningful discussion about movies..I am not sure why there are so many personal Comments about SK, his fans etc etc. Why are we doing a Real life Character Study here..So much Hatred..Did not expected this much hatred in such a decent forum
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sachita
October 12, 2016
I dont get this likability factor. For that matter, I dont get this mass hero phenomena at all. Why are Vijay/Ajith are thala/thalapathy in the first place. Ajith seems to have performed better before this thala business. Vijay had some srk-ish chic flicks for tamil set up. Dont understand why/how they made the leap to the box office success (ok opening day success) that they are.
In case of siva karthikeyan, the overwhelming opinion is he is one of us. The background and the fact the he was quite humorous during an anchor is helping him till date?
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brangan
October 12, 2016
I don’t think this review is critical of SK at all. Saying that a film is crap isn’t the same as saying the actor is crap. Most comments, too, aren’t attacking SK personally. Rather, what his films have come to stand for.
As for the accusation that people are calling out stalking here while being accepting of it in GVM/MR films, this is how I see it (and I’m not speaking for anyone else):
I don’t mind stalking being shown in films, but the difference is when stalking comes combined with misogyny. I find the stalking in MR/GVM films “fun” because the films aren’t misogynistic in the least. As someone said above, some amount of stalking is very normal during a romantic pursuit.
Whereas with Dhanush and SK films, I find a sense of “putting women in their place” or “if one of us wants to get the ‘figure-u, then we have to do these things” or whatever. They also play to a certain audience segment’s notion of “I can be a total loser and still get the girl of my dreams.”
Madhavan and Shalini in Alaipayuthey — for instance — are a computer engineer/doctor pair. They’re both achievers in some way. Real life matters to them. He’s not just obsessed with winning the girl. He wants to make something of his life. Or take SRK in Dil Se. That’s an obsessive drama — not a rom-com. At the end, SRK “pays” for his stalking — with his life. So there’s a sense of consequence.
Here, SK is a loser at the beginning. At the end, too, the only thing he achieves is the girl. He doesn’t seem interested in getting a job, making a life, whatever. So this makes me feel for the girl — not because she’s been “won over” by stalking, but because she doesn’t get anything in return. The sense of a reciprocatory relationship we see in an Alaipayuthey is completely missing in these films.
This is the basic difference, according to me.
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neabs
October 12, 2016
Loving the discussion here. As for Sk i still cannot accept him as an actor, nothing against him but i loved him as an anchor and host for many of the shows and he was biggest stress buster during my college days. Out of all his movie i liked VVS which has more of SKism that can come only from him, the movie only was watchable for him. I felt Rajini murugan tried to be par with VVs but it failed in a way.
.Sk is getting busy with many projects and so so but i really wish he is back with hosting some shows . i really miss his anchoring and hosting.
with few references to stalking in other movie i have seen people speaking talking Alaipayuthey, VTV and Ayuthaelutha and few such movies. But i don’t feel these movies had heavier stalking.At least the leading ladies showed some interest at some point in movie .
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neabs
October 12, 2016
“Saw Rekka movie, got entertained and did not feel like I was fooled. Man, you should give it to vijay sethupathi, this guy does not fake a persona, an image both on screen and off screen.”
@Sharan. I second this .I still remember once he said he would love to act in commercials of vettisattai and now he is doing that .
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Rahini David
October 12, 2016
Why do people include Alaipayuthey in the stalking list in spite of the fact that she seems quite happy to see the dude every day? Is there not a difference between deliberately being around and stalking? She is neither afraid nor disgusted. So what is the problem exactly? Sure, he bothers to track her down. Is that the problem?
The stupidest plot GVM wrote is in V1000 where Surya applies for Visa saying, “Like I need to impress this girl I met recently” and they give him Visa and when he gets there she is all smiles and says “Well why don’t you stay in my room?” Of course it is fun and all that but can’t that dude make slightly more plausible storylines? Is it stalking? Well she seems pleased as hell. So I would personally not classify it under “Stalking” but “Stupid”
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
October 12, 2016
Is the Divya-Manohar relationship in MR reciprocatory in any sense?
Seems people don’t have a problem with stalking per se, but only when it’s glorified (as true love) on screen. That being the case, Guna is a little problematic, isn’t it?
Here, SK is a loser at the beginning. At the end, too, the only thing he achieves is the girl. He doesn’t seem interested in getting a job, making a life, whatever.
See, this is what they call ‘true love’. 😛
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brangan
October 12, 2016
Honest Raj: Is the Divya-Manohar relationship in MR reciprocatory in any sense?
Of course it is. This isn’t a case of a jobless loser who wants nothing else but the girl. Manohar has principles, beliefs. He a kind of radical. He wants to change the world. It’s not like she passed him on the street and the wind blew her hair and he fell in love. He meets her only when she points him out to the police. And this “context” carries over into their relationship, and becomes the crux of her “it’s either me or your principles” ultimatum.
And then, when he falls for her, HE CHANGES HIMSELF for her sake. He chooses her over his radical friends. He respects her enough to do this, i.e. there is no sense of “I am a guy, and therefore I will do exactly what I want and still get the girl.”
We may not agree with the way he got her to love him, but surely there’s a sense of reciprocation here!
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
October 12, 2016
BR: I’m not talking about misogyny, but about the reciprocation factor. What made an econometrics studying girl fall in love with a thug? A coffee?
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brangan
October 12, 2016
Honest Raj: As I said, I don’t see him as a thug. He’s a radical — not a “rowdy.” His methods may be that of a rowdy, but even that first fight (when they meet), it’s about some principles. (The “velai illa pattadhari” Karthik of Agni is much more of a template-forebear of today’s heroes than Manohar from Mouna Raagam.)
My point about the reciprocation was that he got what he wanted (i.e. her) and she got what she wanted (i.e. his giving up his way of life). Today’s films have the hero getting what he wants (i.e the heroine) and the heroine getting what the hero wants her to get (i.e. him).
As to WHY she fell for him, that’s what I meant when I said “we may not agree with the way he got her to love him.” In any case, it’s a highly compressed segment and this didn’t bother me then, it doesn’t bother me now. It’s not the crux of the film.
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Uncouth Village Youth
October 12, 2016
@BR : I think you are oversimplyfying the AlaiyPayuthey plot here. AP release in 2000, Shalini is a Medical student from a very middle class family – so the assumption is that she got that seat on merit. I don’t remember if they showed Madhavan’s college, but it pretty much seems that he passed out of one of the Kalvi thanthai colleges that started mushrooming around that time. So we are talking about a TNPCEE( yeah I wrote them,I passed out of school in 2000) cut off difference of around 80 – 90 marks :P. That is about as big as the difference that might have existed in the Nungambakkam case everyone went overboard about, if you ask me. I couldn’t get to talk to girls with 10 more entrance marks than me :(. Just because the hero is from a sleek background, and talks well and is from a rich family doesn’t make stalking/pursuing acceptable. What about Simbu – Trisha in VTV,Surya-Sameera in VA,Kamal-Kamalini in VV,AS -MK in Bombay,AK – MB in Roja. And what is it with MR marrying off school going ‘children’ to men who seem to be much older ?
@jaga_jaga: The review was fair, but the comments are were you can find SK hatred for which I couldn’t find a reason. He is fairly open about his motives, he openly accepted that VVS and RM are from the same template.
@Raghini : So the victim decides, whether it is a crime or not. That is not how the justice system works, and once charges have been filed they cannot be withdrawn even if the girl wants to(they can settle though).Legal experts can weigh in. It’s either a crime or it is not – that is why we should be very careful about going down the slippery slope. I know it is hard on the women, but it is better set the bar pretty high and not get worked up on Dhanush/SK stalkings in the movies. This in fact will back fire when the public sees a guy being hauled up for nothing more than casual flirting.
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Rahini David
October 12, 2016
I know it is hard on the women, but it is better set the bar pretty high and not get worked up on Dhanush/SK stalkings in the movies.
You mean set the bar as low as you can? 🙂
Shalini outright asks Madhavan if he is a rich dude who gets very low marks, but I don’t quite see what his mark getting prowess has to do with anything. He is good marriageable material anyway. You can see Shalini being attracted to Madhavan and welcoming his advances. Athu mattum thaan mukkiyam.
Just because the hero is from a sleek background, and talks well and is from a rich family doesn’t make stalking/pursuing acceptable.
A woman gets to decide whom she finds attractive. If it is sweet talk, if it is looks, if it is humour, then so be it. Even if it is money, I don’t think it has to do with anything. If Shalini likes Madhavan to behaving in a certain way, Madhavan has already earned the right to behave in that very way with her. (includes asking her to wear a saree and come to seemanthams)
How is Madhavan deciding to be in the same Railway station as Shalini punishable by the law? Can the law come and decide that a perfectly innocous man should not enter a Railway station even if NO woman complaints against him? Enna boss!
I already asked BTW, why should a person not disagree with the law? It was made by humans, right? in another thread about consentual or forced sex.
And in cases like rape, it is the victim who should decide if it was consentual sex or rape, no?
This in fact will back fire when the public sees a guy being hauled up for nothing more than casual flirting.
What will backfire?
What about Simbu – Trisha in VTV,Surya-Sameera in VA,Kamal-Kamalini in VV,AS -MK in Bombay,AK – MB in Roja.
Trisha invites Simbu to have lunch with family. He asks “Parava illaya”. She says yes and introduces him as a “Ende classmate”. – Not Stalking
Sameera invites Surya to stay in sorority house – No Stalking (But extremely stupid, brain-dead, unbelievable)
Kamalini decided to marry him in a matter of hours – Not Stalking (far-fetched, half-baked)
AS -MK in Bombay – Stalking (She looks scared, he uses a disguise. )
Aravind Swamy is invited by Madhubala’s dad to see his elder daughter – Not stalking (Aiyo da)
Athu ellam irukattum.
Women don’t decide whom they are attracted to based on cut-freaking-off marks, dude. You have been conned. Yaaru sonnanga athu oru factor nu?
😛
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Amit Joki
October 12, 2016
Uncouth: You make an excellent point.
Firstly, whoever gave birth to the notion that loving someone and “getting” that dream girl are one and the same?
One can only truly get his dream girl once he marries her.
Take my case study for instance. I come in Top 20 in academics. Two friends of mine one who is on the borderline of being average and the other well below average.
But they are committed. In the sense they are in love. I am in 12th for that matter and my friends too.
The below average guy is a Muslim and the one he loves isn’t.
There’s a sense of uncertainty looming large in this kind of love. Would my friends go on to marry the ones they love now? That is something future can answer.
On the other hand naa inga comment panninu theriyuren. I haven’t really tried but I make my point.
Clearly in this age of puberty and past it, love is about hearts not brains. Its about personality and charm than economy.
This kind of so called love is what is being shown in films of Dhanush.
And as for stalking, somebody gave an excellent point in another thread of similar nature pertaining to stalking being a cultural phenomenon.
In a country like India and especially in Tamil nadu, I myself cannot but fear being judged when I talk to a girl in public. I have first hand experience on it too if anyone would need it.
In Schools too save for a few, talking with girls is a taboo.
Dhanush in his so called stalker movies plays a school boy or at max a college guy. In this, hearts come into play rather than brains.
And the whole plot of such so called stalker movies is about getting an yes and may be the family’s opposition. In short, the first communion of hearts is the main crux of the whole film.
Once in love, there’s that relationship that must stand the test of time for a few years. There is nagging, breaking up, cajoling and all that stuff.
Then there is the ultimate test of conveying the wish to get married and then comes into play the real life. Occupation, salary, all comes at that time.
If as BR says, if a computer engineer and a doctor fall in love, it is not because they are engineer and a doctor. It is because they like each other. Their occupation just happens to be a decent one so the perception makes us thing and preach, “their real life matters for them” kind of stuff.
To make myself even clear, Padikkadhavan could very well have a sequel, Padichchavan, wherein Tamanna could set her terms that Dhanush should be in such and such position if they were to take the relationships forward.
Sensible directors know what I am trying to convey to a section of guys in here. In 3, which happens to be one of those rare Dhanushs so called stalker movies wherein he gets married too, we are shown that he wants to lead a happy life and gets a flat. He is shown to be a working husband too.
Take for the instance, Raanjhanaa. All that so called stalking is done and dusted. But Zoya was never his. Was she? Initially she might have reciprocated, but she found someone better. Life is as such.
And only in Padikkadhavan is Dhanush a loser. In other so called stalker films of his he is a school going or college going guy even if it isn’t made explicit. Which explains why he hasn’t an occupation as yet.
It would then be foolish to term him loser because the film has not portrayed him so. His so called stalker films showed the first love that brews in young minds.
It never asserted it would be their last or the ever lasting one. So forget about getting the dream girl.
What happens is what you get. Naadhari pasanga ella girlfriend vechu thiriyuraanunga. So it is no exaggeration. Most of them don’t last long. Dhanushs so called stalker movies too haven’t ended on the note of having them being married, have they? Because only after marrying do you truly “get” your dream girl.
It just so happens that MR, GVMs stories revolve around working class. That’s about it.
Segregation of working class stalking and a mere infatuation painted as love that has so much uncertainty in it is like telling enaku vandha ratham unaku vandha takkali chatni.
In such turn of events I fail to grasp how this IS NOT elitist nature into play?
In Raanjhanaa it was sheer perseverance though the means might have been “following”, in Padikkadhavan it was anything but stalking that led her to fall for him. In 3, once Janani tells him not to follow, Ram doesn’t. How’s that for a consent or respecting a woman’s words?
Even in Raanjhanaa Dhanush only follows her the first time. She asks him to come daily and get slaps. It is upon her calling that Dhanush goes. Where is the stalking?!
In Thangamagan, Amy falsely accuses of Dhanush stalking him though their meeting is rather circumstantial, and only then Dhanush follows her and informs her before he does. What chivalry!
Also Samanthas character was so discussed in here about how they portray in bad light about women how unreal sort of stuff but no one noticed equally modern raring Amy. That’s totally another matter though.
Clearly from my observations, following someone alone has never led to the blossoming of love in Dhanush’s case. Also if someone is ears, I will further tell the legends of Thirumangalam, Madurai, wherein girls fell in love with guys when the girls brother beat him black and blue for loving her and he receiving those punches for her sake evokes pity in her and they start loving. Enna kaadhal da saamy. This kind of love may not last long, but is it a sin to portray this in a film?
Would the film maker be charged of planting the idea that getting beaten black and blue will make a girl love you?
Wait a second. Film makers are never really blamed here. So I guess the hero would be. And what about the cultural phenomenon? Ah, that shit ain’t exist in here.
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brangan
October 12, 2016
Amit Joki: My comment wasn’t so much about stalking as the general misogyny these scenarios present. This has nothing to do with rich/poor, or working/unemployed. This has to do with how one treats the woman — whether “as something to be possessed at any cost/by any means” or “as someone who’s some sort of equal.”
I have no issues with Raanjhanaa, because the story itself is about stalking, and the behaviour is identified as stalking, and we are shown what that can do to a man, to a woman…
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maha
October 12, 2016
baradwaj, can we please create a chat window for amit joki and u.. kodi is going to be another misogynistic masala crap from dhanush.. have fun
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Rahini David
October 12, 2016
Wait a second. Film makers are never really blamed here. So I guess the hero would be.
Really? Who are MR and GM that people are discussing here? MR is Maniratnam and GM is Gautam Menon. Filmmakers.
We sometimes say “Karthik stalks Revathy” rather than “Manohar stalks Divya” as it is easier to remember their names. Famous directors and famous actors are picked out. Naturally.
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Srinivas R
October 12, 2016
Maha – not sure about misogyny, but very likely a masala crap. The director is the guy who gave us the epic “Kaaki Sattai”
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Anu Warrier
October 12, 2016
Amit, I thought – in the stalking thread – we had made some dent in your thinking about what exactly constitutes stalking, when you admitted to thinking that girls would respond the way heroines do on screen.
Now, with your full-on defence of what Dhanush does not being stalking, I’m not so sure. I haven’t watched the other films you reference, so I will stick to the one I have watched.
Disclaimer: I like Dhanush’s acting in the film; I thought he was brilliant in the role. The character, however, made me pause: yes, as BR points out, the character is a stalker. Where I will part ways with BR is that the behaviour is not identified as stalking, and was in fact, defended as the way small-town youth behave. [Cue cinema-reflecting-life-reflecting-cinema.]
Your defence plays out when they are school children – she is both attracted to, and repelled by his ‘love’ for her. So 15 slaps later, she hugs him. But when he realises that she is not in ‘love’ with him, he threatens to slit his wrist, and in fact, does so as well, frightening a teenager into ‘accepting’ his ‘love’. [There’s a reason the ‘love’ is in quotes, so bear with me.] Her parents send her away.
Years later, when she returns, he’s still pining for her – or his ideal of her – while she’s even forgotten who he is. When he insists that he loves her and that she loves him (they are on the scooter), she tells him flatly that she has no such feelings for him. So he has to punish her – to the extent that he exposes her boyfriend as a Hindu, leading to him being murdered. You think this is ‘LOVE’? You can defend this behaviour? You can defend what he does, says, as something that is just a portrayal of infatuation? And you bring in economic class here? Whether that woman in this instance was upper class or of his same economic class has no bearing on the fact that his behaviour was egregious. Period.
My problem is not with showing the uncertainty of love, or indeed, the first flush of attraction, infatuation, whatever. It is when, the male character (insert hero of your choice) insists upon teaching the female character about the ‘purity of his love’, by importuning her against her consent to the point where he ‘wins’ her.
As for your argument that it is not ‘winning’ unless Dhanush (for example) is shown ‘marrying’ her, that’s laughable. It’s very rarely in our films that we get the full arc of a relationship from the courtship to marriage. I think it was Alaipayuthey, which first showed what happens ‘after the happily ever after’.
But who, in heavens’ name, told you that marriage has to be the be-all and end-all of relationships? So, if it doesn’t culminate in a marriage, then it cannot be love? It cannot be a committed, successful relationship?
What bothers me here is not your fandom of Dhanush. It is that nothing that has been discussed on these pages, in previous posts/threads, has made any difference in the way you think about man-woman relationships. That is disheartening to me because this is the generation we are trying to reach through these discussions/petitions; this is the generation that has to bring about the change we are hoping will evolve. But I see that fandom supersedes any thought about the other part of the equation – the girl. And her consent.
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Aadhy
October 12, 2016
Just came across this quote in a newspaper today. It’s from this dude named Walter, head of a leading Tamil hero’s French rasigar mandram. He says,
“I disapprove of what you say, and I will defend to the death my thalaivan in whatever he does”.
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Raj
October 12, 2016
@BR:
GVM’s Minnale IMO is the ultimate stalking movie where the girl gets cheated, gets advised as to why its a mistake to marry Abbas and goes through all sort of nonsense. Still she is expected to marry Madhavan just because he does things she likes for 5 days– The thing I didn’t like about Minnale is at the end of the movie everyone sympathizes with Madhavan while it is Reema Sen who had to go through all the torture of deciding her spouse, antagonizing her family, have to live with the fact she was cheated.. This projection of the girl as hard headed even though the guy was wrong right from the onset is the ultimate tribute to stalkers and male chauvinists. GVM also used this technique to get a firm hold on Tamil cinema…
In a different note what is the name of the Blue shirt guy..paavam he has a name no…
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JPhil
October 12, 2016
I recollect a Tamil classmate of mine from college.He was transfixed by ‘Kadhalan’-newly released then- seeing it on screen several times a week and -once memorably-even leaving class to celebrate the 100th day.
The film whispered to him that someone like him-a bus conductor’s son-could win over one of our more well off classmates .He spent a lot of energy and scarce resources to stalk and woo this girl who clearly didn’t care.He missed most of his exams,eventually dropped out and is not in touch with anyone today.I don’t think he ever graduated .She works in the US.
These kind of regressive portrayals of courtship are risible .I saw ‘Remo’ with my wife and felt like I’d stepped into the 80s, just with dolby…..
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
October 12, 2016
BR: Fair enough. But I’m not very convinced with this: “she got what she wanted (i.e. his giving up his way of life).” How is it any better than Pudhiya Paadhai? I’m not equating rape with love though.
Amit Joki: About Dhanush, how true is BR’s comment in the Irumugan thread!
Had Dhanush stalked a girl in only one film, it would be just the character he played in that film. But because his films — at least at one point — consistently portrayed this, the attribute (“stalking”) transcends the screen and rubs off onto the Dhanush “persona.”
Between his debut (2002) and Raanjhanaa (2013), he played lead roles in around 22 films. Guess the number of films that didn’t incorporate the “stalking” and the “women as something to be possessed at any cost/by any means” elements? Not even a handful! At this stage, one can safely say that he’s the poster boy of stalker movies in Tamil cinema.
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arun
October 12, 2016
@BR..The review is not Critical of SK..But some comments here definitely are and they are attacking SK personally. Below are few glimpses from the comments section
An actor who has calculated almost exactly what needs to be done to become acceptable to the Tamil movie watching audience. From the exaggerated modesty in his interviews
I hope hubris catches up and he falls through, very soon. Chances are bleak, though.
Sivakarthikeyan is the Donald Trump of Kollywood. He says and does atrocious things.
This guy is essentially meticulously manufacturing it out of whole cloth. His movies and his public persona has no other purpose other than to tick box a set of must-haves that will elevate him
you need to watch interviews of siva karthikeyan’s atlee’s like, the kind of honesty and humbleness they show is puke inducing.
Hubris Catches up and he Falls??
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billa
October 12, 2016
Though concept of winning a girl over by relentless stalking is downright stupid, it is ingrained in some minds (girls too) in TN. I personally have seen girls having been non-receptive to the stalker (By non-receptive, I mean rejecting their approach, avoiding conversation, etc) and go on to be in a healthy romantic relationship with the stalker. This sort of development is not often the case, but isn’t too uncommon in my age group (i.e: 16-20/21). I’ll take it a step forward and make a tricky statement. Some girls ‘expect/want’ to be stalked/pursued by a boy they have a crush/interest on. They expect the boy to be relentless and admit their interest only after weeks/months/etc. Again, this doesn’t happen often, but it does happen. So, when a girl says ‘no’, some boys are unsure if they have to pursue further or stop it. Take all this with a pinch of salt, as my sample space’s very much limited to my age group and I frankly don’t know how it works with older men and women.
Blurb: Comparing SK to Donald Trump is over the top. That someone of SK’s stature doesn’t have a proper understanding of the meaning of a woman’s consent should be seen as a collective failure of the our educational and moral system instead of demonizing him. The fact that he stalks women in his films is not a cold calculated move for box-office gold, but an unconscious, sincere, albeit banal attempt to try and entertain the audience. We should be more shocked and cynical of the fact that audience are entertained by stalking and find it passable.
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Billa
October 12, 2016
Anu Warrier: Regarding the marriage being the proof of ‘successful’ love, for most of the boys in TN, being in love is an all-in business, they either fall in love, get married and go all the distance or do nothing at all. There is no in between.
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Iswarya
October 12, 2016
No time to address individual points here, but in general:
Regarding the “undeserved personal hatred” targeted at SK, the blurring lines between the professional and personal is often the effect of deliberate manipulation and targetted image-building by stars themselves so that a gullible public that swallows all the PR spin dished out about the ‘real life virtues’ of the star may then use it as a reason for adulation where there is no sufficient cause to cheer an actor’s professional achievements or acting prowess. Classic case in point: Ajith. While recognizing his severe limitations as an actor, he has invested a lot of effort into brand-building with his ‘acts of goodness’ (the veracity of which I don’t question now, for that’s not the debate here). Following the same template, being “mentor-less” and “not from a film family” kind of background, SK has gone on to build a very smart brand of himself, mainly targetted at children and teens, with the ‘family audience’ thrown in for good measure. When a person thus markets himself as a product, then what gets criticised is the brand for what it sells by association. The SK brand has been peddling misogyny and stalking for a good while now, with the person SK adding his gems of wisdom in his interviews to show selective virtue-signaling. That selective virtue-signaling has always been the stock-in-trade of Tamil cinema heroes, right from MGR. The reason it is being called out now is because of the proportion. MGR and Rajini might have used objectification and casual misogyny as one of the ingredients of their many-headed monster of masala entertainment, but SK’s films (and this one in particular) relies disproportionately on it. Also, the notion that with passing years, we need to push for being a little more progressive and not recede into caveman times.
As for those who still justify stalking, thank you very much. You are the reason we live in fear all our lives. May you remain blissfully unaware of the kind of mental-health crisis you are triggering in a substantial percentage of half the world’s population.
As for those take the ‘elitist’/class stick to beat us up with, I have seen through the likes of you in the last few months. In a substantial portion of these ‘oh-that’s-so-classist’ critics, I only see thinly-veiled MRA pack behaviour – to basically stand behind men (apparently across class barriers) in an effort to silence the discourse on gender by diversionism. Gender problems are REAL, and so are class problems, but pitting one against the other (especially when I see it done by privileged males) is just a devious trick to get women who raise their voice to shut up. Since YOU rake up the class question with respect to Tamil cinema, please go on and name how many times you have voiced out against women of an underprivileged class being underrepresented or misrepresented in Tamil cinema. If you can’t recall having done that enough, SHUT UP.
****Addressed to women who really feel underrepresented or victimised by the fairness myth the film industry is peddling or by the way your aspirations are not given a voice, please speak up more! Don’t let privileged males hog the space with their all-men theories of class.
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Raghul
October 12, 2016
Siva is an ultimate entertainer – his timing, spontaneity and trying to be at ease in all genres of scenes – even in action and emotions prove his potential.
He prefers to be that way, but has to be more sensitive to the society and sensible in the choice of scripts and dialogues…
He should grow as a relevant and meaningful entertainer…
All the best Siva in your next attempt …
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arun
October 13, 2016
@Ishwarya…I dont understand…If Shiva Targets Family audiences, then why would he show Stalking in his movies..? Does that mean all Families approves Stalking? The worst lines ever sung in cinema ever against would be this..”Adida avala…Udhai da avala..Vetra Avala…thevaiye illa”..So should we ban all person associated in bringing these venomic lines to on screen..? No body supports Stalking or anything against woman. Lets say If Shiva acts in 10 movies with Women centric content and supporter of Womans Right..Does it make him a Bharathi? Honestly the Answer is No. You cannot use the content of the movie itself to associate and judge an Actor. Its like imagining arnold schwarzenegger is the Bravest man in the world by looking at his movies. Its not Arnolds Fault its the ignorance in the minds of people who have those thoughts. The point here is We have serious shortcomings in the society as a whole and whether you like it or not, a mass movie is a reflection of the taste and preference of the society itself. So IF ITS NOT SK, IT WOULD BE SOMEBODY ELSE and this will continue. So their is no point in banishing an actor personally or his brand or whatever. Change starts in the minds of the people. I hope you would have heard this famous lines…”When they go low..We go High” and not the other way around..So lets stop this hatred or bashing in any form..
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Anu Warrier
October 13, 2016
Standing applause for Iswarya. Take a bow, my dear lady.
Billa: (By non-receptive, I mean rejecting their approach, avoiding conversation, etc) and go on to be in a healthy romantic relationship with the stalker.
I’m curious to know how this occurs. I’m also curious to know what ‘healthy’ means in this context.
Some girls ‘expect/want’ to be stalked/pursued by a boy they have a crush/interest on.
Then it is pursuit and not stalking. We are very clear about the definition of stalking here: Persistent pursuit without interest/consent of the pursued.
being in love is an all-in business, they either fall in love, get married and go all the distance or do nothing at all.
a) There’s no ‘go all the distance’ if the girl is not interested, nor has she consented to being ‘loved’.
b) My statement was in response to Amit Joki’s laughable defence of Dhanush films as not showing him ‘winning the girl’ since they never show the marriage. I put that on par with Sivakarthikeyan’s idiotic comment about what he shows on screen not being stalking because he marries every single woman character [onscreen] that he’s shown stalking.
c) If Dhanush made only one Raanjhnaa, I will buy Amit’s defence and even the director’s defence that it is only a movie; it reflects life. When Dhanush or Sivakarthikeyan or anyone else consistently makes movies in which they are shown stalking their heroines to show their ‘pure love’, then I’m sorry, I’ll hold them responsible for choosing those characters to play.
d) To add to Iswarya’s fine thesis about class in films: when is the last time the likes of Dhanush or SK or any of the others ever stalked a dark-skinned lower-economic class heroine? Are there even any dark-skinned heroines in Tamil any more?
In any rom-com you see today, the hero is almost always dark-skinned/uneducated and/or from a lower socio-economic class. He spend his time pursuing a fairly well-educated, usually rich, definitely fair-skinned heroine. He teaches her the error of her ways, either by slapping her, or by humiliating her in public. And then she promptly falls in love with him, usually leaving her well-off, educated and usually equally boorish BF/fiance for the hero (whose boorishness apparently hides a heart of gold). If the stalker is a rich guy from the same background, he is usually the villain.
So. Who is bringing class into the equation here?
Like Iswarya, I am sick and tired of being told that we are being classist the minute we point out what is blindingly obvious upon watching the recent crop of films.
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shaviswa
October 13, 2016
@Iswarya Excellent points on image building. Ajith has very carefully cultivated his image of being this do-gooder, being a law-abiding citizen, a man who shuns star persona in real life (and stands in queue like a common man), a family man, etc. etc. What his fans miss is quality in his films. They are simply horrible.
On the question of stalking in Tamil films, have you ever seen a film where a well to do hero stalks the heroine from a middle-class or lower strata family, a heroine who looks more like a typical Tamilian and not “the imported from North types?” Tamil cinema love is typically something that hero (and his fans) aspire towards, it is like taking a ladder up the social hierarchy. And they achieve this by stalking their target.
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Rahini David
October 13, 2016
But I’m not very convinced with this: “she got what she wanted (i.e. his giving up his way of life).” How is it any better than Pudhiya Paadhai?
Neenga innum paakatha padathukka ivalo vakalathu? Or did you see it after the discussion we had a couple of months ago? 🙂
Pudiya Paathai is a very convincing movie and Parthiban is very good with the dialogues. Parthiban, like his mentor Bhakiyaraj, is very good at convincing people about the plausibility of something. Take the initial Rape premise away and everything is just roses in that movie. But Rape victims being asked to marry the perpetrator is a reality in our society. So it is more than a little bothersome. If our REAL culture did not glorify virginity so much that rape-marriages seem the right answer to deal with rape cases, then it would not have been facing so much heat till date.
Seetha is a strong female character and she does get what she wants, a husband she personally tames. Athula yaarukkum problem illa.
But the ‘gap’ is also very high. Much higher than the more ‘acceptable’ movies like MRaagam. And the higher the gap, the more we find it difficult to suspend disbelief, no?
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Rahini David
October 13, 2016
arun:
So should we ban all person associated….
Ban is not allowing others to watch the movie, boycott is avoiding the movie as a group and thus contributing to the failure of the movie as much as possible, but in a more vocal way rather than just not going to theatres. We are just letting it know that we are sick and tired of this.
I dont understand…If Shiva Targets Family audiences, then why would he show Stalking in his movies..? Does that mean all Families approves Stalking?
Family audience very often seems to think that if there is no cleavage and no consensual sex in the movie, everything else is appropriate.
Lets say If Shiva acts in 10 movies with Women centric content and supporter of Womans Right..Does it make him a Bharathi? Honestly the Answer is No.
Why? Ten whole movies of non-macho, non-misgynistic themes and he IS a mordern Barathi. Barathi was a high-caste male who could have just sung songs about India’s independence. He bothered to think about the plight of Indian women of his time. Any priveleged male who bothers to support woman’s right is a mordern Barathi.
I am not saying that this is acceptable even if he is a wife-beater at home. I am saying that in the current climate, a hero choosing 10 movies with a strong female lead is QUITE a guy. IMO
Its like imagining arnold schwarzenegger is the Bravest man in the world by looking at his movies.
Not at all. Another man may agree to fly at arnold’s slightest touch. But this is different. By the very act of choosing female centric movies a man can show his bravery. I know ulterior motives can always be there. But a man risking the name of sissy or second fiddle is truly brave indeed.
IF ITS NOT SK, IT WOULD BE SOMEBODY ELSE
Thank God for small mercies, no? 😛
So lets stop this hatred or bashing in any form..
Not hating the stalker is akin to hating the victim. But who the hell cares, no? As long as it reflects the society? Of course when we say society, we mean male fantasy. But why not?
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Srinivas R
October 13, 2016
A slight digression. In real life I actually do not know of any couple whose romance started from stalking, that too an unknown stranger stalking an attractive woman. Don’t we usually fall for people in an around your circle, your school, college, work place etc. then work out a way to spend more time with them and through some good luck and mind games end up as a couple(married or not). I know at least a dozen people in friends’ circle who chose their partners, sometimes involving high drama from their families and in none of the cases they stalked or followed around aimlessly. That is not to say they didn’t do things like join the same class or the same volunteering group to spend more time with the object of their affection.
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Srinivas R
October 13, 2016
The point I am trying to say is stalking not some “necessary ritual” in wooing a girl and before someone slaps an elitist label on me, this is true even in cases of rural TN boys ( from what I have observed in my friend’s circle)
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brangan
October 13, 2016
Srinivas R: There’s a difference between pursuit and stalking. The former is a little more benign, and it’s inevitable certain kinds of romantic situations, whether on screen or in real life. We’ve all seen this happen around us. If X falls for Y and Y is, at first, not interested, but if X feels that he (or she) can make a case for himself (herself) — this is all par for the course.
But if there’s some kind of deception involved, if you sense the girl is being treated as “a thing” rather than a person, if the guy considers the whole pursuit as a means to an “acquisition” rather than “making a life together, with mutual respect,” if there’s misogyny involved and the girl ends up looking like she deserved better… All of this makes some people squirm.
Which is not to say the films should never show these situations. But when an actor consistently “propagates” this worldview through his films, it’s only natural that he gets called out.
Raanjhanaa, for me, is not like these films at all. It’s a serious drama and the stalking there is a genuine plot point — that particular story could not progress any other way. i.e. if you remove the stalking angle, it becomes a very different story, with very different conflict points.
But all these rom-coms, these so-called “light entertainments for the whole family” — can’t they think of another trope? Or can’t they at least show the guy as something other than a no-gooder, someone who has something to offer the girl, or someone who’s willing to change himself for her, or whatever?
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Jagajaga
October 13, 2016
Stalking is of course a serious issue. But, let the discourse on it be in some other thread. This movie is not worthy of so many comments!
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brangan
October 13, 2016
Jagajaga: I don’t think these comments are about stalking as a social issue. These comments are about stalking as depicted in the films of a particular actor, so they definitely belong in this thread.
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Uncouth Village Youth
October 13, 2016
@Rahini : There is whitewashing and then there is gaslighting – I don’t know what to say to your response. In VTV, the Kerala episode happens after the stalking in Chennai if my memory is correct. In VA, the US episode happens after Suriya drops in to Sameera’s home – clearly, the way to propose your love to a girl whom you met in a train, is to go all the way to her home. In AP, the seemantham,song singing et al happens after the stalking/pursuit in the railway station. Let me ask you – if a policeman is posted in the station to prevent stalking and he sees Madhavan ‘pursuing’ Shalini what does he do – wait till Shalini calls for help ? And I have not even mentioned, Minnale- the ultimate stalker movie 😛
@Iswarya: SK’s career trajectory is there for all to see. If he is smart enough to play this up and mint money – exactly like you regular office goer bragging about ‘innovation’ and ‘ownership’ in the annual appraisal, all the more power to him. But, this is totally different from the random news stories planted , regarding Ajith’s generosity. These anecdotes cannot be refuted or proved. I would any day take a newcomer like Siva/Ajith rather than another ‘star kid’ mentored by a ‘star director’ – my another pet peeve with MR.
@Others : Nobody is defending stalking here . The question here is why the selective outrage/hatred against a few heroes while the others get a free pass. Some heroes like Karthi,Simbu,Jiva get away while a few others get the flak. Maybe SK should next act in a GVM/MR movie and people here will be happy, definitely this has worked for Simbu 😛 So, it eventually boils down to one thing – dark skinned/vela vettityilla hero pursuing white skinned/Pizza Hut heroine, a class thing :D. This kind of justifies all the demand for ‘wheatish’,earning girls
Some movies do go overboard with stalking, but at the end it is just a movie. We cannot idiot proof the world, so the outrage should be against the real life situations where stalking happens, but then that is difficult than arguing here 😀 The movie industry is just responding to the market demands – clearly until all movies with stalking/pursuing/romancing fail, nothing will change. I have a hard time believing that only the men make a movie a success. Clearly women have more share of the work to do here – don’t go out to such movies,convince you friends not to got such movies and vote with your wallets. Things will change soon enough.
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billa
October 13, 2016
Anu Warrier : By ‘healthy’ I meant they hang out together and do stuff that every other couple does with mutual consent. I mean no ulkuthu here. And I’m also curious to find how it worked out.
I understand no amount of stalking/pursuit is going to get you a girl who isn’t interested in you. But, there is the concept of ‘alaya vidradhu’ .
Say, X =boy, Y= girl. X is interested in Y. Y is interested in X. X admits his interest. Y admits her interest, privately by a smile or a wink or whatever signal ($). But after this happens, Y avoids having conversation with X for reasons god-knows-what, Y tries to be indifferent. X start following her. Y makes X follow her for day/months. Y admits her interest.
During this entire process there is a group Z who don’t know that step ($) happened. All Z could observe is the non-stop pursuing of X and the end result. And, Z conclude that X won over Y by relentless stalking/pursuit even though the girl wasn’t interested in the start.
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Srinivas R
October 13, 2016
“Clearly women have more share of the work to do here – don’t go out to such movies,convince you friends not to got such movies and vote with your wallets. Things will change soon enough.”
Exactly. I guess that’s exactly what Iswarya has been saying for more than a month now.
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Arun
October 13, 2016
@Ragini
Family audience very often seems to think that if there is no cleavage and no consensual sex in the movie, everything else is appropriate.
As you mentioned this is one of the Wrongs with our Society
Not hating the stalker is akin to hating the victim. But who the hell cares, no? As long as it reflects the society? Of course when we say society, we mean male fantasy. But why not?
Hating or Liking the Stalker or the Victim in this forum is not going to change anything. The problem is to simplify this as something Male fantasy or as if this all staged by Male dominated society. Their is considerable female audiences for his kind of movies and they dont seem to have any problem with what he does on the screen. Do you disagree? With the current Social media in the finger tips of every woman, why is their not any big uprising for boycotting this movie with in the social media circle? (#BoycottRemo or even change.org petition?) If alone all the Womans college girls would have supported or shared it, then it would have been definitely a mainstream issue by now..Why its not? Either Woman who enjoys these movies just them as entertainment or their is something wrong with their mindset that actually causes them a victim. Unless the change starts from with in the minds of woman who are very much the heart of THE society, their is no point in expressing frustration in the forum or blaming the actors or blaming male fantasy. Period.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
October 13, 2016
(Mulayam Singh yadav’s reaction to stalking movies)
“Aakhir LADKAY tho hain !”
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Rahini David
October 13, 2016
In VTV, the Kerala episode happens after the stalking in Chennai if my memory is correct. In VA, the US episode happens after Suriya drops in to Sameera’s home – clearly, the way to propose your love to a girl whom you met in a train, is to go all the way to her home.
In both cases, the girls talk to the guys normally. Trisha talks to him as a neighbor and maybe pissed for his saying “I love you” immediately. But there is no show of fear or disgust. Yes, Surya tracks sameera down and goes to meet her. But there is no show of fear or disgust. She is amused. She is surprised. She is flattered. He pays her a visit. He does not break in like that dude in “Monisha En Monalisa.”
Let me ask you – if a policeman is posted in the station to prevent stalking and he sees Madhavan ‘pursuing’ Shalini what does he do – wait till Shalini calls for help ?
Yes. “Disturb pannuraana ma” can be asked. Nobody should arrest a man who is flirting happily with a woman and she is flirting back.
The question here is why the selective outrage/hatred against a few heroes while the others get a free pass.
Because you equate going and talking to a woman after finding out her whereabouts to stalking. Stalking is doing it IN SPITE of her obviously not liking it.
What is so confusing about this? That women have free-will? That they get to choose people that they are attracted to? That women have the right to say “NO” and with it the right to say “YES! Ennakum Pudikuthu” ?
clearly until all movies with stalking/pursuing/romancing fail, nothing will change
No, until consent of female characters is respected by male characters nothing will change. And “Kangal Irandaal” will not count. And he is not a rich guy. He is not an urban guy. Cycle la ukaanthu daavadikura paiyan. Avalo thaan. Athu illa factor. Ponnuku pudichurukku, that is the yard stick.
don’t go out to such movies,convince you friends not to got such movies and vote with your wallets. Things will change soon enough.
Mmmm. Atha thaan sir pannikuttu irukoom. 😀
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Rahini David
October 13, 2016
One guy here are amazed that as a guy who does not get high cutoff marks he does not get to flirt with girls of his choice. Another says that inspite of getting high-marks he does not yet have a girlfriend whereas another friend of his does.
Isn’t this like a woman saying, “Enakku waist length hair, naan shampoo kooda podurean, inspite of this avan avala paathu thaan smile pannuraan.” and another saying “Naan straightening kooda pannitean innum onnum nadakala.”
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Rahini David
October 13, 2016
Arun: That is an excellent point and one that is not often discussed. I have admitted to liking Singaravelan and though Gopura Vasalile is not exactly a favourite, I took it without offence when I first saw it. Reason? The emotion of actually being stalked was alien to me in that stage in life. I was a child.
When VIP (prabhu deva) and Minnale and Udhavikku Varalaamaa (Karthik, Devayani ) released I found that cheating was depicted as cute and it disgusted me but not as much as it disgusted older women I knew. This awareness is a journey. I have spoken to women who slowly admit that they are not pleased with 7G type of movies and end it with a “What can we do?” Stalking is just one type of misogyny. There is body-shaming. Women do that a lot. There is judging by clothes. Women are experts in it. And there are those who are too enlightened to be feminists.
Women who have been stalking-victims themselves do learn to hate the implication of these movies. But most feel powerless. Well, we ARE powerless unless we start convincing people. That includes women. Women who watch SK movies without protest do admit that they will prefer movies where there is female consent. IF there is choice, they will be happier. And surely, it matters.
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Uncouth Village Youth
October 13, 2016
Madam,The cutoff thing was made more in jest – it was to highlight the merit gap that would have likely existed around the time frame of the movie, by making some logical assumptions. This was in response to people saying, look Madhavan is a combuter engineer, what is wrong in him pursuing a Daktar.
I don’t know which is dangerous – somebody looking at VA, won’t they assume all girls will react the same way, and that they should track them down and knock on their doors, by your logic . Won’t more ‘Engineering’ college students be encouraged by looking @ Madhavan’s bravado to go after MBBS chicks 😛 ? Now I’m left to wonder, is this how ‘normal’ women would have reacted in the mentioned situations ? However, I prefer to give the director his cinematic license here, which is clearly the sensible thing to do, but then sensible feminist is an oxymoron 😛
Atha thaan sir pannikuttu irukoom – Clearly, some of the hatred for SK in the comments, was not because of the stalking in his movies. It was more in the lines of ‘ nethu varaikkum TVla show panittu irunthavan, epdilam scene podran parra ‘. That is what i meant when I said criticize the movie for its content, not the star for his intent.And when at that don’t cherry pick movies to outrage about, conveniently airbrushing movies/directors/stars of your choice.
Btw, me and my friends are still searching for the women in MR, GVM movies.
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brangan
October 13, 2016
Uncouth Village Youth: in response to people saying, look Madhavan is a combuter engineer, what is wrong in him pursuing a Daktar.
Is this a dig at my comment? This isn’t what I meant at all…
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Rahini David
October 13, 2016
Btw, me and my friends are still searching for the women in MR, GVM movies.
And you also thought that being uncouth is the way to get them? Good try.
Yeah yeah. I know your moniker is a joke. 😉 😉 😉
And when at that don’t cherry pick movies to outrage about, conveniently airbrushing movies/directors/stars of your choice.
I cherrypick content. The whole ‘SK_is_hated_for_being_normal’ brushes aside the fact that from Ramarajan times we have loads of normal dudes as heroes. And pretty women fell for the songs they sang.
Did you notice that I had described V1000 as “extremely stupid, brain-dead, unbelievable” and the Kamalini episode of VV as “far-fetched, half-baked”?
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aravindan
October 13, 2016
Applause to those who have called out the class discrimination – so often found in this blog and its comments sections. On most occasions, people here don’t question it. In fact, it is celebrated
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venkatesh
October 13, 2016
@Iswarya: Take a bow madam , you said everything and better than i could have.
And for crying out loud , is it just me or is every other comment thread now devolving into this?
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billa
October 13, 2016
Pacha mannuyaa Ivan.
http://www.bollywoodlife.com/news-gossip/sivakarthikeyan-breaks-down-at-the-remo-success-meet-and-we-can-tell-you-why/
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
October 13, 2016
Neenga innum paakatha padathukka ivalo vakalathu? Or did you see it after the discussion we had a couple of months ago?
Rahini: No, I haven’t. My beef is why should Divya be concerned about Manohar’s giving up his way of life. I don’t think real life stories are written that way. BR’s explanation on this somewhat contradicts his earlier stance abut AP:
Madhavan and Shalini in Alaipayuthey — for instance — are a computer engineer/doctor pair. They’re both achievers in some way. Real life matters to them. He’s not just obsessed with winning the girl. He wants to make something of his life.
You say Manohar is initially some sort of a radical who wants to change the world, but what he ultimately does is give up all his ideologies to please his woman. Do we think real revolutionaries act that way? I get the point about ‘mutual benefit’, but how is the relationship any different from the Arya-Nayantara arc in BEB? Not that I’m a fan of M. Rajesh’s movies/PP/Remo, but I don’t see much of a difference here.
Iswarya: I don’t understand the fuss about MGR. Sure, he did some atrocious things on screen (so did his contemporaries – NTR, Rajkumar, et al.,), but he maintained a very good off screen persona, especially among the ‘thaaikulams’. Even when a socially responsible filmmaker like T. Rajendar mouths lines (targeted at women) like ‘Migaiyodu sirithaal aval kaaviyam, illaiyendraal adhu paithiyam’, why single out MGR?
At one point in time ‘winning women as trophies’ and abducting them were considered legit. Now ‘taming a bull’ is considered a heroic deed. Who knows, some 200 years down the line marriage might become an obsolete idea, and our descendants would be having a discussion on ‘Misogyny (in its updated definition) in MR and GVM films’. 🙂
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Aadhy
October 13, 2016
I don’t get this ‘poramai’ argument at all. From my understanding of the comments, the “nethi varikun tv show panitrundavan, iniku epdilam scene podran” thing does not relate to the growth of his stardom. Take Vijay Sethupathi, who was a nobody few years ago and a crowdpuller today without any godfathers pushing him. No one in any of the threads here (as far as I’ve read) had the same reaction towards him. Whereas with Sk, the growth of his stardom has become synonymous with the growth of the dangerously ridiculous ideologies his movies seem to propagate, unless he starts doing something different. I read “nip it in the bud” comment as “nip the growth of such dangerous ideology propagating machines in the bud’ , and NOT “nip the growth of the tv anchor who wants to become a big star” .
Accusing someone who calls this phenomenon out, of being classist/elitist, is pure diversionism. Calling out X is not equal to vindicating Y of the crime. And the X, in this case SK, IS guilty of promoting stalking in his movies, which no one disagrees with (atleast in this thread), I suppose. Whereas with Y, there is still a debate on, as to whether it’s pursuing or stalking. If someone feels what Y does is stalking, they can call it out all they want. But they can’t blame someone as being elitist, for calling out X, for something that is obviously dangerous and is being lapped up ignorantly by a much larger section of audience. Yes, half the blame lies on society as well. But spreading awareness also starts from calling out such things in public and creating discussions around it, so that people would atleast start to think what is so wrong about it.
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Sifter
October 13, 2016
@ Anu Warrier- What an awesome comment. Am going to fan-girl a bit and say that i loved every word of it!
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Jagajaga
October 13, 2016
Two questions to all:
Is there any “mass hero” in Tamil films, who has become a mass hero, by not promoting stalking, say in the past 40 years?
Historically in our human civilization, hasn’t it always been the norm that women are pursued, and men do the chasing? Given this baggage, when exactly did “pursue” transform into “stalking” to become a mainstream activity to woo women in Tamil Nadu? My definition of “stalking” includes anything which makes a woman uncomfortable, when she is being wooed by a potential suitor? Exclude cases of “forced arranged marriages”, and stick to cases where a potential suitor himself does the “wooing”/”pursuing”/”stalking”.
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Sifter
October 13, 2016
@ Ishwarya- Am glad that people like you are active part of this thread.
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Sifter
October 13, 2016
And this movie would be shown as a First Time TV premiere during Deepavali or New Year or some such. Families, including kids would be eager to watch it with parents and elders….because they know the hero of this film! And most of them will ignore the stalking or the loosu ponnu, and treat all of these as normal, no biggie.
That is also what puts me off. Being entertained or being mindlessly entertained is one thing, being entertained by such films where women constantly are subjugated, punished, changed, or shown her place is downright callous. How is such ignorance, such callousness justified as entertainment?
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brangan
October 13, 2016
Also, I don’t get why people can’t take it when others say they hate an actor — be it SK or whoever. The same things about an actor that appeal to X may be a turn-off to Y. Take Kamal. Some people love that he’s so well-read etc. Some people hate him for this very reason, which they call “arivu jeevi” or whatever. You cannot “justify” any of this.
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Anu Warrier
October 13, 2016
@uncouthvillager: but then sensible feminist is an oxymoron😛
Putting a smiley at the end of an offensive statement does not make it less offensive.
So, it eventually boils down to one thing – dark skinned/vela vettityilla hero pursuing white skinned/Pizza Hut heroine, a class thing😀.
Please explain to me why all the heroines these men chase are ‘fair-skinned/Pizza Hut’. Or why all the men who do the chasing are dark-skinned louts who boast about their lack of education? When film-makers make the ‘fair-skined/ Pizza Hut heroine’ an aspirational fruit, that is not classist? In a sort of ‘Show that rich b!tch her place in the world’? But pointing it out make us classist? Really? (I also pointed out in an earlier comment that it’s very rarely that the stalker is upper-class/fair skinned/educated himself, and when he is, he’s usually the villain; he not only does not get the girl, but is also punished at the hands of the hero – who does precisely the same thing.)
@Arun:
Unless the change starts from with in the minds of woman who are very much the heart of THE society, their is no point in expressing frustration in the forum or blaming the actors or blaming male fantasy. Period.
Well, how do you want that change to start? Unless this topic is pulled out of the darkness and examined, unless it is discussed and debated, unless we can change even one mind by our arguments, what hope do we have? If we say, it’s no use expressing our frustrations in this forum (or anywhere else), or blaming male actors for choosing roles they know are insane in present context, or trying to point out to impressionable males that their fantasies are just that – fantasies, then what do you suggest we do?
How do we change a woman’s mindset and get her to protest, when the next thing she knows is that she’s getting raped or murdered?
@Billa: Say, X =boy, Y= girl. X is interested in Y. Y is interested in X. X admits his interest. Y admits her interest, privately by a smile or a wink or whatever signal ($). [emphasis mine]
Billa – that, right there, is the whole crux of what we are screaming about, no? ‘Y admits her interest. There, right in front of you, man, is the whole point – she has consented to the ‘mating ritual’. What happens when Y does not admit interest, and in fact, says ‘No’?
We are talking about stalking – which is a whole different ball game; when the man pursues the woman despite her saying ‘No’; the man believing that because his love is ‘pure’ (barf!), the woman has to consent to a relationship with him; that if she doesn’t, he’s allowed to throw acid on her face, or abduct her and keep her confined until she consents, or even murder her, like the unfortunate young women who have lost their lives in these past few months.
@Sifter, thank you.
@Iswarya: I can see why you are burnt out. It’s frustrating to not be heard, or even mocked for being a ‘feminist’. Thank you for fighting the good fight.
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Anu Warrier
October 13, 2016
@Aadhy: But spreading awareness also starts from calling out such things in public and creating discussions around it, so that people would atleast start to think what is so wrong about it.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
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arun
October 13, 2016
Lets stop getting emotional and get through facts atleast with in the limitations of this forum..The actor has given 6 hits and below are the review and comment section of four of them excluding Maan Karate..
7
8
11
15
Not even one comment says anything about the word Stalking or the way SK treats woman in the movies..One comment? When going through Comments section here, i see most of them say SK is promoting stalking through ALL his movies..Then why cannot I see them in any of the above reviews or comments? The point is no body cared anything so far and suddenly Remo has opened their eyes. I respect each and every opinion expressed in this forum but I see he is being singled out here unfairly..Kamal in his early career was singing “Kattai vandi Kattai vandi”, “Nethu Rathiri Yamma”..Atleast he found redemption later in his career. The guy is an anomaly in an industry thats being hugely dominated by Heirs and many other Actors get away by giving Garbages worse than this..As I said, their will be some low key actor who will continue this trend, we laugh..we clap and we will woke up only way later once he becomes a star and finds broader audience..
Having said that..Remo is a missed golden opportunity to end Stalking for ever in tamil movies..If the “GANGS against BEEP Song” would have shown similar outrage, wrath on this movie, then it would have raised huge huge awareness among the general public and Film makers would have made a pause before they show or say anything stupid on the screen..
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Anu Warrier
October 13, 2016
Lets stop getting emotional
Sigh. The condescension was already there; now comes the patronage. We are ladies, ya know, we get ’emotional’. And we can either be ‘feminist’ or ‘sensible’, not both, nope. Thanks for the life lessons, gentlemen. (I use the word advisedly.) What would we wimmenses do without you sensible men to explain things to us? In words of one syllable, please.
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vijay
October 13, 2016
Sivakarthikeyan can be a hero only in Dravidianland where deprivation exists all levels. Where two-bit actors are elevated to philosopher/politician/intellectual levels on a consistent basis.Where temples are built for fat imported actresses.Where mega-serials are religiously focused on progressive themes like maamiyar-marumagal politics, adultery etc. Where people’s vote and self-esteem can be bought over for a quarter and biriyani packet. And where Sivakarthikeyan can be a hero. Bite me SK fans 🙂
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Anu Warrier
October 13, 2016
Now that I’ve successfully lost my temper, let me hasten to remember that I was at least brought up to be a lady, and apologise for being intemperate.
Arun, I apologise for that nasty comment. You just bore the brunt of my exasperation. It was not personal even though your comment triggered that response.
Let me try and address your comment in a proper manner:
Not even one comment says anything about the word Stalking or the way SK treats woman in the movies..
You don’t see the irony in saying that no one commented about stalking before?
When we do talk about stalking, we are asked ‘Why didn’t you protest before?’ Well, for various reasons. And we are protesting now, aren’t we? But are we being heard? Or are we being dismissed for not having protested before? Shouted down for being ‘feminist’ and therefore not sensible?
The point is no body cared anything so far and suddenly Remo has opened their eyes.
You know that, how? We women have always protested. You’re only hearing it now because the voices are now getting too loud to dismiss as ’emotional’. You’re hearing it now because real-life situations are being exacerbated by the normalisation of this behaviour. Try telling the families of the young women who were killed that they are being ’emotional’.
but I see he is being singled out here unfairly..
Sivakarthikeyan is being picked on here because it under a review of his film that this topic came to be discussed. Despite that, many comments referenced Dhanush as well, so much so Amit felt he had to defend his hero by minimising what women feel about the stalking.
I am not a Tamilian; I don’t give a damn whether SK is heir apparent, star kid or outsider. Insert any hero of your choice here, from any language, who’s built his brand up by regularly stalking women in the name of love, and I will say the same things I did here. It is the content, the behaviour and the defence of it that I am protesting.
[SK is also being picked on because, tone-deaf that he is, he had to defend his stalking as ‘pure love’ because he ‘always marries the women he stalks’. The man actually thinks he’s doing us a favour.]
Kamal in his early career was singing “Kattai vandi Kattai vandi”, “Nethu Rathiri Yamma”..
No one is excusing Kamal or Rajini or MGR or Sivaji or whoever, for what they did. Those films have come and gone in an era where most of us commenting were little kids. If Kamal did a movie right now where he stalked a heroine against her will, forcing her to ‘fall in love’ with him, he would be crucified – and rightly so.
Also, pointing out that someone was ‘worse’ does not negate your hero’s responsibility. That’s a kindergartner’s response. In today’s context, films like these have a wider reach through the Internet and television as well as theatres, and it cannot be said often enough or loud enough that these sort of portrayals must stop.
would have shown similar outrage, wrath on this movie, then it would have raised huge huge awareness among the general public and Film makers would have made a pause before they show or say anything stupid on the screen..
And so now, when we are outraged, and are trying to raise public awareness among the general public and struggling to ‘get film-makers to pause before they show anything stupid on screen’, you are castigating us for raising our voice and protesting now when [you claim] we didn’t before.
Can you not see how dismissive this is, of our experiences, our voices, our struggle to be accepted on an equal footing?
Feminism is not a bad word, guys. It is only a call for equality for half the world’s population. Don’t use it as a pejorative.
As for women who proudly claim not to be feminist [thereby tinging the word with negative connotations], please remember that if it weren’t for the feminists who fought for your right to be heard, you wouldn’t be able to voice this opinion today. You wouldn’t be doing half the things you are able to do, today, if it weren’t for the brave women [and men] at the vanguard of the feminist movement.
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apala
October 13, 2016
BR-sir, you think this belongs in this thread? Me think so!
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Aditya (Gradwolf)
October 13, 2016
Hi Arun, just my two cents – I’ve reviewed only one SK film and I did mention the liberal dose of sexism and misogyny it had in my review – https://silverscreen.in/tamil/reviews/rajini-murugan-review-attack-of-the-rajini-clones/
I think everything you say in your comment is really besides the point.
While I’ve had several back and forths when this discussion started (not SK, generally wrt the stalking petition etc) and not always agreed with everyone on the means to achieve the end (though we’ve always agreed on the problems) or the inherent class issues that do exist that people above have taken a dig on, I must say, it’s good to see this issue go mainstream with Remo. If Remo was the tipping point, so be it. If there will be one less M. Rajesh, his assistants and other heir-apparents, then good. It’s not like any of us have acted like a lynch mob on some bizarro work of art (which surprisingly happens a lot in our mode of criticism) because it didn’t move us or we didn’t get it and therefore that art now wallows in obscurity. It’s Remo, SK and his friends are laughing all the way to the bank. But it has also opened up this debate – not to mention so many real life incidents over the past few months – so much that many people that I’ve noticed who can be pulled up for everyday sexism (example: at my tennis court, if someone doesn’t hit a ball hard, they’ll say don’t play women’s tennis) are suddenly disgusted by stalking in Remo. This is good. And really there is no need to feel sorry for SK, of all people!
Ok bye.
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Amit Joki
October 14, 2016
Stalking should not be defended in any form in any kind of film.
BR: That was a far more convincing comment which I too agree upon. Instead of being a trope upon which the plot should have its base, the trope becomes the plot which becomes a bit of a problem.
Quoting (1.) but since I saw defence, I countered along the same lines.
Maha: It would be an exciting prospect but not really on the lines that you are thinking. And in trying to count your eggs too early don’t end up having an egg on your face.
Anu: In the other thread, I was thinking stalking was harmless. It is not to be now. I stand by the fact that I still consider stalking to be bad. Consent is important.
Also see (1.) which was defended though in some class and thrashed in another. That’s wherein lies the cause for my comment.
Summa summa inga defend pannala.
And Raanjhanaa. Why, she could have let him bleed. He wouldn’t have gone further to slit his throat. Even if he had, it would be a happy death of a stalker.
An empowered woman should have no compunction of his being hurt if she had no place for him in his heart, no? Sympathy is okay when he does it in front of her eyes, regardless of what
she feels for him or if she feels at all. But I do have the ominous feeling that someone or the other would come up with “See, woman are still responsible, men aren’t” kind of thing.
God save me if someone indeed turns up!
Nonetheless, you can very well see how she caresses him over his chest that is so so obviously suggestive of what she feels for him, until of course she finds him to be Hindu.
Then we see a hint of resentment. Then we see the split. His being Hindu was the singular reason for her to leave him and I see no reason why Dhanush’s action of
revealing Abhay’s religion is justifiable.
Now, if you expect him to keep mum along the lines of “Oh, my love! Wherever, with whomever you be with, thou shalt only experience true delight and nothing else”, then sorry
arguing further is out of my bounds and that you truly haven’t felt what Dhanush would have.
As for Marriage, how could I be so careless knowing how it would be perceived? Okay. Marriage is the first, significant, lawful step in getting a dream girl. It is a sign that law recognises and the society too that you are hers and she is yours. I don’t want to discuss infidelity, extra marital, cuckoldery, adultery stuff now.
If it cannot culminate in marriage, is it not love? It is. But a largely uncertain one which comes in the age of around 20 whose age group Dhanush plays.
Also, if someone falls in love with me, then elopes with other or marries another, what am I? A loser.
Now were she to marry me and then elope or marry another, I can file a lawsuit for the law sees her to be mine. There’s a sense that she will be mine alone, which is what I would mean when I say I got a girl.
This is what I had taken much pains to explain in my previous comment. That the movie only shows the part of getting an yes for the first immature love. Nothing more.
Honest Raj: This latest definition of stalking is surely I can thoroughly understand. Thanks BR! Will look it up.
As for Elitists being called Elitists: Here’s the usual scenario.
A: This film is so crap and shows stalking!
B: May be, but you know of that A centre film? I think that too was like it in some ways.
A: Whoa! That’s risible. justifies
B: Ah, I think I can justify it too as in justifies
A How misogynistic of you to defend such a film??
A1: Me thinks you are right. Misogynistic indeed.
B: But… but…
B feels like he is been invited to debate with Arnab Goswami who justifies himself and when B does it he is shut stop by labelling B.
Also have to agree with someone who said SK should do one with GVM. Simbu has done outrageously misogynistic stuff in almost every film that he may well be the poster boy of misogynistic hero but see the effect of GVM! Simbu has become as pure as the pope!
Let there be no defending on any films of any nature where stalking is depicted in any manner.
Two strange people ending up together in a train with absolute lack of logic rechristened as chance and the hero wantingly venturing to be with her are one and the same, portrayal differing; end result being the same.
Also when did middle class become under privileged? Also Amma Kanakku comes to mind which is representational of underprivileged women though I will not equate middle class to underprivileged. And what irony of its producer?
Rahini: Ayoo avlola yosikkadhinga. I said I haven’t tried. I have got proposalS for that matter. It was to highlight that love at this stage is quite immature in the sense they don’t care of academic which will bear a mark on their future, that is they are not too worryful of real lives as yet.
P.S
Also fair ladies being the heroines, who are the dark skinned heroines? Aishwarya Rajesh perhaps. It is not in the wildest dreams of the director to show a low class hunting for high class.
It is just that all heroines look like high class are all fair skinned and will attract eye balls which is good for BO. That’s about it.
And people calling SK, Donald Trump, Donald Trumps are cynical creatures and a rarity. What’s not a rarity is the American citizens akin to our audience which helps in paving way for more such Donald Trumps with glee and pomp. SK is definitely not to be blamed. He only caters to the needs of the people.
The needs of the people must change. If he tries to change what people need, then for sure, people will change him, as in replace him with who gives them their stuff. And SK wouldn’t be foolish enough to disregard such love and fandom from people.
A negligible criticism by some 100 people in this blog is unnoticable to him.
When people change, films change.
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nari9488
October 14, 2016
@Arun To be frank the whole converstation about stalking in films has heated up here in this blog only after the Swathi Murder case. There were no comments on stalking in the comments section of the older sivakarthikeyan movies because they were released before the whole issue.
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Sharan
October 14, 2016
@arun “the guy is an anomaly in an industry thats being hugely dominated by Heirs and many other Actors get away by giving Garbages worse than this..”
Of all the film industries in india i think tamil is fairly open to outsiders. Anyway I am just curious to know why people keep quoting such statements for siva karthikeyan? why people who comment here would allegedly attack siva given that we have no stakes in kollywood ? I feel this is result of huge PR exercise by the actor to position himself as an outsider who is wronged. I dont know but this weirdly reminds me modi and trump who position themselves similarly.
My problem with the movie is when you see dialogue like this in trailer “engala maari sadhaana pasangalukku vaaipu kedaikaadhu naanga thaan erpadithikanum” and then see the way it comes in the movie, it makes you feel fooled. every movie is made with target audience in mind, but this one seems to be made only with various target audiences in mind and nothing else, this is my problem with the movie. No one goes to these movies expecting great cinema, what we expect is some what engaging fun movie. was this movie engaging, funny ?. with such movies becoming huge blockbusters, dont you think it will have an impact on how movies will be made here?
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Anu Warrier
October 14, 2016
Why, she could have let him bleed. He wouldn’t have gone further to slit his throat. Even if he had, it would be a happy death of a stalker.
An empowered woman should have no compunction of his being hurt if she had no place for him in his heart, no? Sympathy is okay when he does it in front of her eyes, regardless of what
she feels for him or if she feels at all. But I do have the ominous feeling that someone or the other would come up with “See, woman are still responsible, men aren’t” kind of thing.
God save me if someone indeed turns up!
Have you been responsible for another human being hurting himself fatally? He doesn’t have to slit his throat for him to die. In case you didn’t know, cut the vein in your wrist and you will bleed to death. No decent human being will want to stand by and allow that.
Secondly, this is again the problem – women are conditioned to believe that everything is their fault. When they are raped, the first question is what did you do? Followed by where did you go? What were you wearing?
In such a scenario, a woman feels trapped. Even an empowered woman will think twice in a society that first blames the victim. Never mind. Defend Dhanush’s character, because … Dhanush.
can file a lawsuit for the law sees her to be mine. There’s a sense that she will be mine alone, which is what I would mean when I say I got a girl.
God in heaven, boy! No, she is NOT YOURS. She is not property. If she leaves you and elopes with another man, then she never was yours, legally or morally or romantically. You can file a law suit for adultery, yes. Absolutely. But the law cannot force her to return to you because you married her! Damn it! Marriage does not make me my husband’s property.
And of course, if not marriage, you can only think in terms of adultery, extra marital affairs, cuckoldry. You cannot conceive a relationship where a man and woman may love each other deeply, live together in a commited relationship and not get a stamp of legal approval? Your imagination is very, very limited then.
That the movie only shows the part of getting an yes for the first immature love. Nothing more.
Please take it from us that immature or mature, this is NOT the way to show love. The girl you love does not become yours because you decided upon seeing her that you love her. It becomes love only when she returns your affections and responds to your overtures. Smiling at you, laughing with you, talking with you does NOT signify romantic interest all the time. We women can actually smile and laugh and talk with male friends the same way we talk with our female friends. We are not in love with them either.
Two strange people ending up together in a train with absolute lack of logic rechristened as chance and the hero wantingly venturing to be with her are one and the same, portrayal differing; end result being the same.
I don’t know who you are talking about here, but I haven’t said anything of the sort. B) If the hero and heroine meet in a train, and there is a mutual attraction which persuades the hero to go look up the heroine, that does not come under the purview of stalking. We are talking about consent. The women’s consent. Which is very important. No one gets to decide for me whether I should fall in love with them or not. I reserve the right to say ‘No’ to someone who loves me.. I also reserve the right to say ‘Yes’ if need be. You don’t get to decide for me who I should say ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ to.
t is not in the wildest dreams of the director to show a low class hunting for high class.
It is just that all heroines look like high class are all fair skinned and will attract eye balls which is good for BO. That’s about it.
Really? Then explain why all these fair-skinned heroines are usually educated and wealthy, while the hero is usually not as educated, not as wealthy, not… ?
You know the wildest dreams of the directors? I don’t. But I do know what I see on screen is usually some porukki who teaches the rich girl how to be a ‘nalla ponnu’. Who slaps her ‘thimiru’ out of her; who stalks her despite her being engaged/ in a relationship/ saying No [most importantly]. And in the end, the woman always has to be tamed.
I don’t think you understand. Or you deliberately won’t understand when I, and several other women in this thread and in the previous one tell you what we women feel, what we are made to feel. It feels like hitting my head against a stone wall, hoping the stone wall will eventually break.
I hate invoking the ‘Daughter/sister theory’ but if that is the only way it will get to you: think, if you can – think it is your sister engaged to be married; she’s educated, capable, and is happy with her fiance. And then some random guy decides he is in love with her; stalks her coming and going; lies to her at any given opportunity; threatens to harm her, himself if she doesn’t marry him… but insists that his love is ‘pure’ and that, after all, he wants to marry her and ‘make her his’ – you will stand by and marry her off to him, I suppose? And if you don’t, you won’t mind him abducting her, confining her until she agrees to marry him? After all, it is a legal stamp, no?
You know what? I give up.
I’m beginning to understand Iswarya’s depression now. Because you, Amit, and all the other apologists for this behaviour because it involves your favourite heroes, are doing yourselves and the women in your life – present and future – a huge disservice.
I’ve already hogged BR’s comment space in spades. My sincere apologies, BR.
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brangan
October 14, 2016
arun: Just because the words “stalking” or “misogyny” aren’t there in a review, it doesn’t mean the review doesn’t refer to them. Read this sarcastic passage from my Rajini Murugan review:
He sets up a tea stall opposite the house of a girl (Keerthy Suresh) who hates him – because, in Tamil cinema, when she says no, she’s really saying yes, yes, yes, oh baby, yes. This is how you know Sivakarthikeyan is some kind of star. Imagine how you’d have reacted to this character had he been played by, say, SJ Suryah.
Others: Can we try to look beyond the argument that “if you did not call this out in a film made in 1991 (or 1988 or 2005 or whatever), then why do this now”? This is like assuming that the German people were silent about Hitler in the 1930s/40s, so they’d behave the same way now, and if they protest, then we should remind them of how they stayed silent then.
Two, VTV is not stalking. The girl doesn’t say no. The hormonal moment on the train clarifies everything. You may not have liked the scene — that’s a different thing. But they talk. They talk all night. They become friends. They find mutual attraction. Then the kiss happens. Which she does not exactly mind… That’s a different kind of situation.
The boy has got a signal. He understands the girl is interested, yet something’s keeping her away. So the story is about that. It’s not about “I know she does not like me, but if I keep at it, she will succumb and I’ll get this chick.” (I hated Minnale; I’m talking about the more recent GVM films, not that one-off.)
No one’s calling for a ban on these situations being depicted in films. The outrage (if you want to call it that) is when no psychological detailing is brought to bear upon this kind of situation, when the girl is just a pawn/plaything in the hero’s mind…
Three, we need to consider the general milieu of the film, the general sensibility of the filmmaker. Is it just about the situation? Then okay, maybe that’s just the story. Like Sethu. Like Raanjhanaa.
But if you can make out there’s something deeper — say, the girls being referred to as “figure-u” or “kattai,” or boobs being drawn in the air, or consistent “other-ing” dialogues like “girls are like this only, girls are like that only… we guys are always the wronged party machi”…
Do you seriously not see the difference?
Three, the whole job thing I spoke about earlier isn’t just to say only engineers or doctors can dream of getting the girl. That is SO not the point. The point is about having other dreams/aspirations as well, about being a well-rounded person, about doing something with your life that the girl can also respect…
These films are about a loser who wants NOTHING but getting the girl. He won’t do anything with his life. Not make any effort to improve his lot. And yet, the audience walks away from the feeling that “poor chap, after all the effort he put into chasing her, I’m glad he got the girl finally…”
Again, is it so hard to see the difference?
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Srinivas R
October 14, 2016
Vijay Sethupathi is more of an “outsider” to the TN film industry, but you never see him using it as some kind of badge of honor. SK and his apologists using this stick to beat all criticism about the actor and h is movies is a little tiring.
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olemisstarana
October 14, 2016
Sweet jesus, Amit… the language you use for women, choice and relationships is so problematic that it gave me the hives and the heebie-jeebies! I only hope this is just an indication of learned (therefore easy to un-learn) and not innate behavior.
Also, what Ishwarya and Anu Warrier said.
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piththan
October 14, 2016
vijay: that about sums it up! also, from the days of content leading to “organic superstardom”, we are now in an era of “inorganic, manufactured and indoctrinated superstardom” driving content – tail wagging the dog. Oh well..
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brangan
October 14, 2016
To add to my comment above:
For everyone who’s conveniently dismissing all these discussions as a class/caste thing, let me draw you attention to the fact that no one is dissing Sethu (Tam-Brahm girl being stalked) or Raanjhanaa (fair-skinned girl being stalked by dark-skinned guy).
Because these are specific situations, completely organic to the story, not just a case of “my core audience of young males like this fantasy, so let me pander to them.” In other words, those stories folded the stalking scenario into a larger picture about love / loss / redemption. In these films, the stalking scenario IS the only picture.
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billa
October 14, 2016
Anu Warrier : I absolutely get it. A woman’s consent = Mandatory. I just wanted to say that there are instances when peeps tend to perceive this pursuit(with her consent) as stalking when they don’t know the bigger picture. This is exactly what happened with AP. Shalini seems to enjoy Madhavan’s pursuing/stalking in AP, if we could recall that balcony scene where she is all smiles finding Madhavan below in a bike.
So, to summarize there are two types of stalking
1) Stalking without the woman’s consent.
2) Stalking with the woman’s consent.
It is imperative that we recognize the difference between the two. Cheers.
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Sifter
October 14, 2016
Someone in their comments wrote that of late, most of the comments comes to stalking/consent/misogyny (paraphrasing here). Why not when release after release our movies take pride in indulging in them? It has come to an extent that it is unpalatable. It shows the women “Their Place” and it also degrades men. Sad state of affairs when men take pride in their own degradation as well. And jump into getting offensive to those who raise their voices against it. Continue to use the same tired justifications and excuses to defend their ‘Stars’ who use misogyny to laugh all the way to the banks.
If it is pointed out that a particular hero movie after movie indulges in such misogyny and infact finds new ways to do that, the cries of ‘oh, it must be envy. My hero has no ‘Godfather,’ look how far he has made it on his own shite. Yes, they are begetting an obscene amount of money, you are an obsessive fan, but why should the women and the few men that question such repeated portrayals admire them? Or it is the elite crap. Or why this Kolaveri di?’ goes through the roof. Do they even stop to think the reasons ‘why this Kolaveri di’ actually comes to the fore due to songs like that or movies like this?
Then the next line of defense/offense starts by excusing their hero’s that most hero’s do that, why only pick on my hero? Really? That’s what this is about? This is not about the blatant misogyny in so many Tamil movies? This is not about thoughtless/mindless/sexist/scary portrayal of women and men in general that makes most audiences numb to destruction of their minds? No one is expecting an angel of a hero or a heroine (may be the latter exists in most male fantasies as a VS angel who will also abide by ‘Tamil culture’ that exists only in their imagination!).
Am glad that such things are being called out, despite getting bludgeoned of being emotional/being a feminist/elitist/casteist/overly sensitive woman. It is necessary and it is a start.
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sachita
October 14, 2016
As some one has already pointed out here, Vijay sethupathy is very much celebrated and rightly so. clearly the problem is not where some one comes from but what kind of movies and how they act in.
Cant these conspiracy theorists see the praise vijay sethupathy receives? Are since it puts a huge meteor in their logic they conveniently forget him?
And people have criticized various aspects of tamil movies -Vijay/ajith/karthi/.. they have all been criticized in these comment section. even gvm. so why should siva karthikeyan be above criticism.
And to some one who argued seeing this has been going on for 100s of years – tons of wrong have been going onall those years -eg. casteism. Obv. doesnt make it right.
Now with all the acid attack/murders going on, it has hit crisis level and you cant claim to be unawar and hide under the entertainment tag( that is again a problem – it isnt entertaining either).
What astonishes me is, even in a scenario like this, we cant criticize repeated stalking/demeaning women in movies just because you like the hero of the movie!
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Uncouth Village Youth
October 14, 2016
Sigh. The condescension was already there; now comes the patronage.
I feel this is result of huge PR exercise by the actor to position himself as an outsider who is wronged
The Nungambakkam murder case
Please explain to me why all the heroines these men chase are ‘fair-skinned/Pizza Hut’
IMHO, stalking is like drunken driving. Do we wait for an accident to happen before charging someone ? Do we ask the other road users ‘enna disturb panrana’ ? But then you girls want to have the cake and eat it too. This is why we should be very careful before asking for something.
BR: This shows the perils of a critic commenting on the socio – political impact of a movie. I know it is very difficult at times to be a robo critic,purely commenting on the movie.They say ‘The best review is yet to be written and can never be written’. May be it’s just me, but I want the somelier/food critic/reviewer to just talk about the product – wine/food/movie and not whether product is good or bad to me. What do you think – is this even possible
I rest my case. Peace. The next Friday is here already – so let us all agree to disagree, and move on.
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Aditya (Gradwolf)
October 14, 2016
“..let me draw you attention to the fact that no one is dissing Sethu (Tam-Brahm girl being stalked) or Raanjhanaa (fair-skinned girl being stalked by dark-skinned guy).”
I know your position about these films but literally speaking, I am not sure I get the “no one is dissing..” part. A hell lot of people dis Sethu and Raanjhana. I think you are in the minority here.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
October 14, 2016
Amit Joki: After going through your last few responses, I take back this
comment
.
BR: VTV is not stalking
Disagree. There’s some amount of stalking in the first few portions of the film. Despite Trisha saying ‘No’, STR keeps pursuing her. As you say, he gets her signal only during the train journey. But then, I agree with what you’re actually trying to convey.
As for feminism being used as a pejorative (read feminazis) these days, have a look at this story written by an aspiring film director (a self-proclaimed Bharathiraaja fan :P, who I think is in his 50s!) on Quora:
Q: How do you think a feminist movie maker would show a sex scene in a Bollywood movie?
A: I can take a guess on a rabidly feminist Bollywood director, male or female, doesn’t matter.
The scene as it unfolds:
The man would be cooking in the kitchen, as the woman walks in, in motorcycle gear, lush hair flowing as she takes off the helmet, kicks her heels away.
She would ask him what’s cooking, and he would ask her to come and see for herself.
She would stretch out on the couch, put her feet on the teapoy, tell him to bring her a sample, as she grabs the remote control, to watch an IPL game. There would be women playing, not men. Delhi Damsels vs Royal Countesses of Bengaluru.
He would put a sample on a plate with a fork and spoon and bring it to her, as she takes a bite and a long chew, watching the game. He asks her how it is, and she waves him away with a short mumble.
He would go back to the kitchen, take most of his clothes off, except his underwear, and put on a dance for her, seduce her as he serves her more food. She is a bit annoyed, but then, she can multitask!
She would watch and cheer her team, get on top of him, and have dinner, all at the same time!
Her best friend calls her, and she takes the call. Sure she can come shopping!
Ding dong! That’s the doorbell!
“Just a minute!” she calls out!
It’s over!
That’s it?
What did you expect? A loving romantic beautiful, loving, caring relationship based on mutual trust, no competition, sharing and giving? That would be too much work, not very feminist and not Bollywood!
There’s very little hope for some people!
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Sharan
October 14, 2016
@village youth
“Are those criticizing SK, part of a rival PR company lol. I feel BR with his fair/balanced reviews has built a good mix of ‘real ‘ commenters, who engage in ‘healthy’ conversations about the art of movies. Let us not resort to ad hominem attacks on the individuals”
I was not saying the commenters in favour of SK as part of his PR company. I was calling his movies and promotions as PR exercise. What is remo? Is it entertainment ? Is it cinema ? Is it fun ? Is it story telling ? Is it art ? Is it good time pass ? Or is it a grand PR exercise selectively targeting various sections of audiences and pandering to their fantasies ? YOU PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE MOVIE WAS ABOUT. conversations about art of movies will happen when there is some resemblence of art in the movie.
PS : please do not use “lol” in your comments while having a discussion with someone, it is irritating.
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Kid
October 14, 2016
Amit: Allow me to be rude here, but you have this tendency of commenting on “subjects” in which you are completely uneducated (one of the problems in with “cinema”, and for that matter art, in India is that because it is freely available to everyone, people who have no understand of the art in question, start believing that they have the right to offer “serious” opinions on it). You have exposed your complete lack of knowledge (or experience) in this regard (the topics being discussed- stalking et al) and yet you are defending your opinions rather dogmatically (this inspite of the fact that Iswarya, Rahini and Anu have patiently explained their arguments to you).
Amit, this is not about you “opposing” Iswarya’s views. This is about simply not knowing what one is talking about, and hence coming across like an idiot while doing so. The least you can do Amit is shut up. Like Olemisstarana, I am also giving you the benefit of the doubt here. But if you continue in the same vein, people will stop tolerating the sort of drivel you are regularly coming up with in the name of opinion. I don’t start debating with Anu and Iswarya on feminism simply because I don’t know enough about the subject. The best thing I can do is to listen to them and try and learn from them, not offer my nuggets of wisdom. I know this sounds incredibly self-serving, but this is what it is. And Amit, as far you are concerned, I see that offering completely uninformed opinions is not just limited to this particular topic, but also to films. You are making short-films, you want to make a career in the movies and you don’t even know what a “trope” (in the context of cinema) means (I say this as someone who actually liked your film. But I find it more than a little offensive when people like you, who don’t even know the most basic things about cinema, start complaining that the system/society is not giving them enough “opportunities” to get into cinema).
Your entire comment on Thodari thread is beyond ridiculous (do you even know what an offbeat film means?!). Much of what you are saying here actually comes under “bad manners”. I am not trying to gag you, but one should have some amount of humility while talking about things in which one doesn’t have any serious knowlege (take someone like BR. His is clearly a very informed voice when it comes to films. And yet when he encounters a film in a lnguage he doesn’t understand, he is quick to admit that if something is not working for him in the film, it might because it is his inability to get the context becuase of the linguistic/cultural barrier. Very few Indian critics have this sort of humility. Then again they are not too many Baradwaj Rangans.).
And it’s one thing to talk about films this way, quite another when it comes to discussing something as serious as stalking. Very quickly you are becoming the kind of commenter whose comments I would have to avoid like I would avoid plague. Anyway, don’t bother about what I am saying, but do listen to someone like Olemisstarana because not only is she a top-notch commenter, but also because her opinion is clearly coming from a very honest place.
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brangan
October 14, 2016
Uncouth Village Youth: This shows the perils of a critic commenting on the socio – political impact of a movie.
What exactly is the “peril” here? The fact that a review talks about the socio-political aspects of a film? Or the fact that the film instigates people to discuss its socio-political aspects ?
May be it’s just me, but I want the somelier/food critic/reviewer to just talk about the product – wine/food/movie and not whether product is good or bad to me.
But there are reviewers who do this, no? I believe films are a reflection of society, as much art as a “cultural product” — but aren’t there many reviews out there that just say “whether product is good or bad to me”? If that’s what you want, then may be useful to go there, right?
I’m not trying to be rude. I genuinely feel this and have often wondered about this. Instead of reading people who don’t match out sensibilities and then getting outraged, isn’t it much easier to ignore them?
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Iswarya
October 14, 2016
Gradwolf: As a much-respected commenter here who brought up class, I hear you. I have chosen to engage here only with the people I can respect. As for your pointing out that Sethu and Raanjhana are not exempt, I can see what you and BR are saying but that’s why subjectivity is a factor. Not having watched Raanjhana, I can’t comment on it, but there is of course the Dhanush persona argument. About Sethu, frankly, I am in two minds. The stalker is certainly drawn there with the dice loaded in his favor, in terms of manipulating the audience’s sympathies. But leaving aside these two examples, let me name two other films where a (definitely-not-upper-class) stalker protagonist is sympathetically presented: Guna and 7G RC. I actually like both the films because the stalking there serves as an important aspect of character building, where the woman’s horror at being stalked is not ignored or belittled and these movies are not fairytale fantasies seeking to normalize such behaviour. I treat them on par with movies on par with films where the hero is a serial killer. Their actions are fundamentally recognized as the aberrations that they are, and then some kind of explanation or backstop offered. The kind of stalker movies we object to belong in a different league altogether.
Honest Raj: Not sure where you got that awesome nugget from, but if someone is planning to make that movie by crowd funding, they can count me in for financing it.
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Aadhy
October 14, 2016
This whole line of argument, “X is bad, I agree. But Y is also bad. So how can you call out X?” reminds me of my paati. Excuse me for the liberal usage of Tamil here, a translated version won’t sit with paati’s voice :). When I called out some superstitious practice that she made me a part of, she used to say “ Nama panradelan onume ila, religion Y evlo follow panranga teryuma.” Dude that’s so not the point here.
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Altman
October 14, 2016
They say there is no such thing as slightly pregnant, I guess same goes for stalking as well. Either you are a stalker or you aren’t. I don’t get these benign stalking, stalking with consent, stalking masquerading as romantic pursuit et al. If there is consent why do you have to stalk someone in the first place? You just hang out, go on a date etc…I guess it’s not as easy as it sounds, especially in a state like TN.
The ultimate stalker movie in Tamil would be Selvaraghavan’s 7G Rainbow Colony. The good-for-nothing, boorish Kathir becomes obsessed with the educated, good looking girl Anitha who happens to be engaged to a rich guy who happens to be her relative. Kathir stalks Anitha rather ferociously whereever she goes. He even admits that he could think of nothing but her and says no one can love her the way he does. Anitha understands his love, gets him a job and transforms him into someone respectable, they consummate their love and the poor girl dies in the end.
7G was both critically acclaimed and comercially succesful film. If you are against films glorifying stalking, we have to be against films like 7G, Dil Se, Minnale, Sethu etc.. Brangan may disagree on this but you have to be like Nakkeeran (not the magazine) and say “Netri kan thirapinum kutram kutramae.” Or else Rajesh & co will ask ‘How come Selvaraghavan can do this but not us?’ You can’t reply ‘Because he is a far better filmmaker than you and has refined artistic sensiblities that you lack. The law doesn’t works like that. Giving leeway to some filmmakers and criticising others because their movies doesn’t handle the issue sensibly won’t work.
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brangan
October 14, 2016
Altman: Either you are a stalker or you aren’t…
I agree. So let me modify my comments and say this. The line in the sand I am drawing isn’t so much about what constitutes stalking vs non-stalking. It’s more about the films in which I (and maybe only I) am able to see stalking as adding to (or being important in the scheme of) the story/characterisation vs those in which it’s just easy/lazy pandering.
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Altman
October 14, 2016
The reason these directors are usually portraying heroes as jobless losers is because they are pandering to the silent majority of the unemployed youth. Tamilnadu has a very high unemployment rate with one out of three graduates ending up without a job. They are also the core audiences who watch these movies in the theaters. I would like to expand on this comment later.
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Rahini David
October 14, 2016
If there is consent why do you have to stalk someone in the first place?
Which is why the word ‘wooing’ sounds better. But there is no point in splitting hair on vocabulary. What matters is consent is respected and not belittled.
You just hang out, go on a date etc.
The whole problem arises because of the whole dating-is-a-sin culture. Men are not allowed to invite someone for a cup of coffee and women are not allowed to accept it with grace. So they run around like chicken.
When I lived in a Madurai hostel I will be permitted out only to church and at that time if a man asked for the time I better not look at my watch and tell him what time it is. Nope. I should run like I saw an ogre or I will be forfeiting the right attend church for the entire year. And this attitude adopted by the chaperones is the reason why all these confusions arise. Personally, I felt extremely bad that I impolitely avoided a guy who just said “Excuse me.” This was in 2001. He was not abusing me. The system and the invisible spies were. But what can I do? I needed that permit to the church and did not want it confiscated.
But how can movies where the guy adopts a “Don’t like me? Get around to liking me, bitch” attitude be equated with “Cute girl, let me ask if she likes me” attitude?
And yes, I agree that in cases where the man is a sociopath and the movie itself knows it, I don’t find it wrong at all. I guess Prathap Pothen kidnaps Shoba in a movie and her position is shown with complete sympathy. That is similar to Julie Ganapathy which is also a Balu Mahendra movie.
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Uncouth Village Youth
October 14, 2016
Sharan : A fair comment that. Even I don’t know, what a movie should aspire to. Is it to entertain/enlighten/mindless fun/ pass time. Because, I feel differently at different times. If you see my comments, this is one of the greatest human conundrums – what defines art or rather good art ? How do we define a standard for different forms of art, when there is huge subjectivity involved everywhere.I find it absolutely fascinating that we trying to abstract out art. Even science, with it’s logic and proof cannot decide on so many things. As far as PR exercises are concerned,I see them all around me from the moment I wake up – sometimes I am befuddled/amused/indifferent.
I have also never claimed that Remo is good because it has my hero in it. SK is not my fav hero(I’ve gone past the fav actor/cricketer stage of my life) , although I do have a soft corner for him, for which I have given enough reasons already. Vijay Sethupathi, too should be celebrated, wrt where he is now and how comfortably he straddles different genres.
“X is bad, I agree. But Y is also bad. So how can you call out X?” – We are saying ‘call out Y as well’. Seriously, how hard is it to comprehend? Just look out, how stalking has been redefined continuously, the leeway made bigger and bigger, from the top to the bottom in the comments section. If my manager says ‘You are not putting in the requisite hours in office. So is X. But then I will continue to call out only you’, I’m going to be mighty pissed off. And I’m sure the company policy too would not accept his line of thinking.
BR : Instead of reading people who don’t match out sensibilities and then getting outraged, isn’t it much easier to ignore them?
Thanks Altman for putting it so eloquently. The law/logic indeed doesn’t work like that.
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Aadhy
October 14, 2016
I think it again comes down to the discussion we had in the stalking thread, regarding the movie’s voice and the hero’s voice. In 7G, Sethu and Guna, there is a clear distinction between these two voices. These movies acknowledge that their leading man is a stalker. They treat their protagonists as characters and not necessarily heroes, even if they occupy most of the screen time and the story is told from their POV. In movies like Remo and the likes, this distinction is clearly not visible, or non-existent. The fourth wall is broken, actor starts talking to the audience and now the hero’s voice IS the movie’s voice. That’s where the glamourisation or romanticisation part kicks in. I’m still in two minds over Raanjhanaa. Though the movie treats Dhanush like a loser, there is still a feeling of the story wanting us to root for Dhanush by underdog-isation of his character. And I have no qualms in calling Minnale a stalker movie. Passive romanticisation of the manipulative kind of stalking is as dangerous as glamourisation of the aggressive pursuit types.
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brangan
October 14, 2016
Uncouth Village Youth: it’s your blog and you have every right to decide the kind of people who congregate here
I may have the right, but I don’t exercise it. In the sense that my comment wasn’t about “don’t visit this blog.” I was just saying that if the only thing one wants is an insulated opinion about “whether the movie is good,” then this might not be the best blog to visit.
The last thing I want is this blog to become an echo chamber, though some people no doubt think it already is one 🙂
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Anu Warrier
October 14, 2016
Why bother when someone comes up with facts or data. Let’s just play the woman card already.
Since I didn’t play the woman card, I don’t know what the hell you are talking about. But man or woman, I would hate to patronise someone by explaining to them what they have experienced. I – a human being – feel patronised by being told I’m ’emotional’ when I raise my voice to be heard.
Aadhy, thank you, thank you, thank you. Once again. You have encapsulated our entire argument so well.
Billa: One is stalking. The other is wooing. The difference lies in the consent – verbal or non-verbal.
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Rahini David
October 14, 2016
Why bother when someone comes up with facts or data. Let’s just play the woman card already.
Or better still do what a good SENSIBLE woman should – be permissive of being talked down to and smile. Sweetly. Also remember that you are just a woman. Police men will decide who you should talk to and not. You deciding that is asking for cake and wanting to eat it too. Let policemen eat cake.
Note: No disrespect to policemen intended.
“X is bad, I agree. But Y is also bad. So how can you call out X?” – We are saying ‘call out Y as well’. Seriously, how hard is it to comprehend?
Even when Y is NOT at all bad? One left office after 6 hours of work after asking his manager for permission and another just disappeared at 4:00 p.m. But penalize both so that the guy who did not ask for permission to leave does not sulk too much. Yes? Is that how your manager behaves? Is it very very hard to comprehend, uncouth, on why managers sometimes say “Oh please do take permission and leave at 4 if you have a train to catch, don’t get caught in traffic and have a nice Diwali” and at other times say “I know well that you left without even meeting SLA and I know very well that it is to watch Kabali, I know you had tickets.”
Ask managers. Ask women. Ask people. Not because they played the “WOMAN CARD”, “MANAGER CARD” etc. But you DO understand don’t you. You DO know what consent is, it just seems so inconvenient to understand that consent and non-consent are opposites. Let us just pretend to not understand and leave for the day without informing the manager and later call him out for giving permission for others and not for you. That is easier. Happy Friday.
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Aadhy
October 14, 2016
Uncouth Youth : “X is bad, I agree. But Y is also bad. So how can you call out X?” – We are saying ‘call out Y as well’.
What I was trying to say is if YOU think Y is bad, you call out Y as much you want. You can’t tell other people to call out Y just because YOU think Y is bad. As you can see, there is still a debate going on about a number of Y’s and their movies. Let people choose who they want to call out. And this boss-employee analogy won’t work here. It’s not a single boss with a single list of protocols of what is good and what is bad. There are millions of bosses with their own versions of good/bad. If you feel the employee did not put in the required number of hours, I might feel it’s not a problem as long as he gets the job done in the hours he puts in. Similarly I might feel it’s not a problem as long as an actor isn’t glorified for his stalking acts, or atleast if he does not justify them offscreen. In this case, the X’s acts are not only glorified in the movie, but also this X justifies offscreen that it’s all true love, for which you might have a soft corner for. But I clearly don’t.
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Sharan
October 14, 2016
@ village youth: I was not asking you what a movie should aspire to be. I was asking what remo movie meant to you, what you felt ? did you feel the love between siva and keerthi suresh? did you feel the “Ponnungaloda full time velaiye pasangala azha vekkaradhu dhaan ?” ” keela irundhu mela vandhutane ?” ” engala maari sadhaana pasangalukku vaaipu kedaikaadhu naanga thaan erpadithikanum ?” did you atleast felt the fun in the movie ? was it engaging ? but in the “Y’s” you are mentioning it isn’t the case. there is story, character, a context, a engaging factor in the movies.
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mak
October 14, 2016
If equality is at the core of feminism, then why are the feminists here ignoring the fact that BR casually dismisses off instances in MR films as “not stalking” simply because of the class of people that director typically deals with? Shouldn’t we put fight against all inequality?
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shaviswa
October 14, 2016
@Uncouth Village Youth
“The Nungambakkam murder case
ah the perfect strawman. Out of the ~80 million people in TN, we have zeroed in on a few isolated incidents and ‘scientifically’ linked them to stalking on screen. That’s one hell of a sample space I would say.”
For any meaningful statistical analysis, you need a minimum of 30 observations (even if you are talking about simple random sampling). So according to you, we need to wait till we make those observations before concluding the effects of reel stalking on real like stalking.
Perfect!
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tonks
October 14, 2016
I’m still in two minds over Raanjhanaa. Though the movie treats Dhanush like a loser, there is still a feeling of the story wanting us to root for Dhanush by underdog-isation of his character. Passive romanticisation of the manipulative kind of stalking is as dangerous as glamourisation of the aggressive pursuit types
I agree. I too felt there was this element of rooting for Dhanush’s character, a glamorization of his behaviour in Raanjhana that was problematic. But the movie had at least recognized the stalking behaviour for what it was. In sharp contrast to the way in which they showed how the heroine’s other romance evolved in the campus.
Also, lovely comments, Anu and Iswarya.
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Uncouth Village Youth
October 14, 2016
Thanks BR – that was reassuring :D.
@Anu : Arun posted links of previous SK movie reviews, which did not mention any stalking both in the review and the comments. Someone, down the line, “logically” without getting emotional replied that , stalking is being called out now, because of the recent incidents reported in TN. Now, read back your comment in response to Arun. I don’t know which one is patronizing.Asking someone to look at the facts without getting emotional is NOT patronizing.
@Rahini : I agree that you have the right to decide which stalking is appropriate and which is not, or even whether it is stalking or not :). Just that, don’t expect that the law will be in line with your opinion. To the law, it is either stalking or not. I would rather prefer to be judged by the law, when push comes to shove, rather than leaving it to the woman in question,thank you very much. Let us just say that we have wildly different views on stalking/harassment.
Fun tidbit while on the manager thing :
X ,my friend decides he has to watch Mankatha FDFS. He ropes in a few from the team including me.
X: I will be coming in late tomorrow.
Manager(M) : Why ?(was more of a reflex action)
X : Planning to watch Mankatha FDFS.
M(Shocked) : That is going to be a problem.
X: Why ? You gave permission to Y, because she had to take her unwell daughter to the doctor.
M(even more shocked),X (continues) : I prefer to be single, because I have different priorities. Why am I being discriminated for that ? For her talking care of her child is important, for me Mankatha is important.
M(stunned): okay.
That day I decided, never to ask ‘Why leave ?’ when I became a manager 😛
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billa
October 14, 2016
Altman : ‘you hang out together, you gotta out on a date’. No boy in TN knows what dating is unless, he has upper middle class parents (very rich peeps) or lives in a city or has come upon movies where people go out on a date with each other. The same goes for girls. Those who know what dating is, they’re not ready to embrace it. They consider it bizarre. And we don’t have the same degree of freedom/age that people who date have. There will always be doting relatives who might see us and call our parents.
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Anu Warrier
October 14, 2016
Uncouth – BR pointed out that the review, in fact, had a comment about the behaviour? Two, we are defining stalking for you – even legally, stalking is a course of conduct directed at a specific person that involves repeated (two or more occasions) visual or physical proximity, nonconsensual communication, or verbal, written, or implied threats, or a combination thereof, that would cause a reasonable person fear.”
What part of consensual do you not understand?
In the other films that people are discussing nuances, they are pointing out that there is a measure of consent – non-verbal, perhaps, but it is there. Which removes the behaviour from ‘stalking’ to ‘pursuing an interest’. Was there any of these films in which the hero continues to treat the woman as if her consent is not required, or even important? I will call that out as well.
This happened to be on the Remo thread, so I referenced this film. The petition that Iswarya cited is calling out all films that glorify this behaviour. Not just Remo. We are using this film as an example. That’s all.
And you seriously compared taking a sick child to a doctor and watching a film as equivalent? Okay, then, but your analogy is seriously flawed. If it had been that Y was penalised for taking his sick spouse/parent/dog/himself to a doctor, yes, it is discriminatory. Otherwise, you’re comparing apples to oranges.
then why are the feminists here ignoring the fact that BR casually dismisses off instances in MR films as “not stalking”
You see, ‘feminists’ are capable of seeing nuance just as well as non-feminists. I will take every film on a case-by-case benefit, and I doubt any of us here are ignoring stalking because ‘class’. If a film is willing to show the nuance – either by showing the woman’s consent (verbal or non-verbal), or by showing her horror/fear at being stalked, or is a film from the stalker’s POV (as in Guna) where a backstory establishes why the hero behaves the way he does, and how that particular female character reacts to that particular male character – I may not like the film, but I will accept the filmmaker’s right to tell his story the way he sees fit.
On the other hand, when hero-stalking-heroine-because-pure-love is a lazy detail mined for maximum effect (cue snappy song/taming-the-shrew/showing-women-their-place), and is not so much a plot device but a general pandering to what ‘good’ women must be like, and how she should behave – adakkama othukkama – and how beautiful girls shouldn’t have ‘thimiru’ and how they should accept the boy because he ‘did soooo much to woo her’ – yes, I do have a problem with that. So should any decent person.
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Sharan
October 14, 2016
@village youth: discussion here is not about what is lawful and unlawful. It is in the context of man – woman relationship, thought process and feelings of woman, how such things are subverted to cater fantasies of male youth in movies. There is no meaning in prolonging this discussion anymore.
i think this message of BR should be closing discussion of stalking in movies:
“I agree. So let me modify my comments and say this. The line in the sand I am drawing isn’t so much about what constitutes stalking vs non-stalking. It’s more about the films in which I (and maybe only I) am able to see stalking as adding to (or being important in the scheme of) the story/characterisation vs those in which it’s just easy/lazy pandering.”
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
October 14, 2016
Iswarya: Got it from Quora. Btw, this might interest you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS7PO7_tLyM&list=PLZmAM8y4g7MqiUYkH7B0pwa1XpncT-DO-
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Iswarya
October 14, 2016
Somebody please link here to what the I.P.C 354D calls stalking, and for scientific research, the consolidated 10 year data of research compiled on stalking and the effects of onscreen representation on adolescents. We have gone through this whole nonsense already and it is tiring to have to start all over again just for the benefit of those who turned up late for the discussion but don’t have the humility to read up on what has happened here before.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
October 14, 2016
For any meaningful statistical analysis, you need a minimum of 30 observations (even if you are talking about simple random sampling). So according to you, we need to wait till we make those observations before concluding the effects of reel stalking on real like stalking.
I suppose he meant the ‘observation’ did not belong to the ‘population’ in the first place. Is the allegation – that the prime accused had ‘stalked’ her for months before she was killed – true? We don’t know for sure.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
October 14, 2016
CARTOON : “REMO” – A charmless movie that puts effort into everything but the script
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TheWannabeWriter
October 14, 2016
The heroine doesn’t know the guy exists, but yeah, she is already the “only” reason for “pasangala azha vekkaradhu.”
And hey, if u wanna cry for ur dead dad, do so. Instead, what’s so great in twice avowing “enga appa setthapo naa azhala..aana ippo azha vecchuta?” Is this any sort of martyrdom to be proud of?
“Nee enaku venum. Nee enaku venum.” Not once atleast a “naa unna kaadhalikaren.” Ava enna panju mittaaiya da?
Whistle adhichu koopta odi varadhuku is she is a girl or ur doggy?
Never has the heroine’s fiance been more conveniently bad so that the hero’s stalking can be glorified. (Now he s after all her saviour ryt?)
This movie is everything that should not have been.
But yes, this movie did draw us to despite the trailer and songs hinting at every bit of what it was gonna be. Yes, it did warrant a brangan review in the hindu. Yes, it thrashed box office records. And yes, here we are, discussing it as some kind of a national issue.
Sivakarthikeyan has quite reached there, hasn’t he?
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mak
October 14, 2016
Anu
Are we saying here that if (stalker hero has a backstory talking about what made him a stakler) or if (stalker hero does not get together with the girl in the end or gets together with the girl after the film cries out loud that he is a stalker), stalking in cinema is justified? That is plain weird and hardly any “NUANCE”. I guess nuance is just another word you are using to talk about softer, lower volume stalk stories featuring less rustic environments and (ah here comes the phrase BR loves) more upper class people
Also, how on earth are we defining non verbal consent for gods freaking sake? More so in a cinema medium where there could be multiple interpretations about a non verbal action of any actor?
Take Alaipayudhe itself. Why isn’t any Iswarya (I loved your message to SK, it has got published in the Times of India, if i am getting the name of the newspaper correct) or Anu Warrier just saying it out loud that well, Shalini liked Madhavan, smiled at him and encouraged his advances but some other girl might not have done it. Why is no one pointing out that the film gives no indication to the effect that had the girl rejected his advances, he would have stopped.
This is seriously absurd. No one who is fighting for the women here is willing to fight against class discrimination. Some are even accusing others of deviating from the topic by shifting focus to another form of discrimination. In a way, u are discriminating against a discrimination. It is f(f(x) if you know what i mean.
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Altman
October 14, 2016
Billa, I agree with what you say. That’s why I added, “I guess it’s not as easy as it sounds, especially in a state like TN.” Dating is still an alien concept here. Most couples just converse via phone to get to know each other. Those nosy relatives are a damn nuisance I say.
Rahini, I understand your predicament as I know Madurai very well. You talked about how things were at 2001, I think they haven’t improved much yet. Madurai is way more conservative regarding these things compared to Chennai. Chennai is somewhat conservative compared to Mumbai and Delhi. That’s why I find it absurd when people are ganging up on Amit Joki over his narrow views on relationships, women, stalking etc.. He himself has said he is a teenager living in Madurai. He goes to school here where many of his friends share his views. People interpret certain movies in certain ways. Normally girls aren’t very outspoken about relationships here. He also thinks love at this stage(+2) may spoil his career. Well, it’s pretty normal to think marriage is the pinnacle of a relationship in these parts as people usually equate marriage with being settled. We accept the reality we are given. Why judge him instead of trying to understanding his pov?
Geography plays a great role in shaping one’s attitude. People living in the U.S. might have observed that a New Yorker might have different opinions on issues like racism, abortion.., than of someone hailing from Texas. It’s as simple as that. You can’t change someone’s world view by commenting on a film blog. He/She eventually has to go to college, interact with different people from varied backgrounds, question his/her beliefs, witness life, alter the way they think etc… This is how people grow up. Chill.
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arun
October 14, 2016
“Lets stop getting emotional” — I am not playing with words here…I said Let us..and when I typed it i really meant that way and not against any one or particular individual…All I said was instead of using words like “Puke – Vandhi varudhu..” ” Come down..Naasama poganum” “I don’t know what the hell – enna naragam da pesure” ..Lets make our conversation decent..and also while we converse lets use some data so it gives lot more clarity and dimension to what we read. Aditya replied back saying that because of the recent incidents their is lot more light on the issue of stalking and hence we see lot of comments now..Which makes sense and thats how it should be…As far as the social issue of Stalking itself is concerned, I dont have any kind of data to make any kinds of argument here..So i am educating myself by just reading other comments…Just supporting an actor does not make any one a part of a PR machine at least in this blog. SK is too early in his career and I am looking forward to his next movies. Hope he changes his content and Specifically the irritating dialogue “Enna maari pasange..”. I still believe he has lot of potential to truly entertain people..
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brangan
October 14, 2016
sravishanker1401: That was a fantastic cartoon. Thanks 🙂
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
October 14, 2016
BR : Thanks so much for the Like and Thumbs up !
Its no exaggeration to say that I’ve pretty much stopped reading anything for pure pleasure (I’m sure age has got something to do with it)…
EXCEPT this blog and the awesome comments from readers who bring their diverse experiences and with an eloquence which makes the head spin……
naan varalai indha velaiyaatukku…
Thats why I prefer to stick to cartoons 🙂 🙂
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arun
October 14, 2016
Here is the link to the change.org petition…Any one who read the comments section and honestly feels like this this should stop..you can sign the petition
https://www.change.org/p/tamil-filmmakers-and-actors-stop-glorification-of-stalking-in-tamil-films
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Anu Warrier
October 14, 2016
stalking in cinema is justified? That is plain weird and hardly any “NUANCE”.
No. It is not ‘justified’. But neither is it glorified. Nor normalised. It is not shown as the ‘Get a girl – 10 easy lessons’. In Guna, for instance, the man is mentally ill. You show it as abnormal: not the norm. But in films like Remo (for example), this is the trope. You like a girl, you stalk her whether she even knows you exist or not, and then, of course, she will fall in love with you.
In Alaipayuthe, I don’t understand what your question is.
That story was about Madhavan pursuing Shalini after she smiles at him, and expresses her interest/non-verbal consent. It was about what happens after the ‘happily ever after’.
It appears that you’re asking what if this didn’t happen? Why didn’t the director show what would have happened if…?
Now, if it was about what Madhavan would have done if Shalini had rejected his advances, that would have been a different movie altogether, no? Or do you want the director to posit all the different ways one scenario would have played out? I’m sure there are films like that out there.
Minnale, on the other hand, was a stalker movie, and i have no hesitation in calling it that. So will I call out any other movie, any other hero where this practice is glorified as the way to a woman’s heart.
And if you cannot understand those nuances, then I’m afraid I can’t explain it any further.
This is seriously absurd. No one who is fighting for the women here is willing to fight against class discrimination.
So the only reason we are yelling ‘stalking’ is because the men are from the lower class. Is that what you’re saying? Therefore: class discrimination. What do you want women to do, ayya? Say ‘yes’ to any guy – irrespective of whether she likes him or not – because if she doesn’t, she’s discriminating against him because of his class? .
And again: If all the heroes are uneducated jobless youth, and all the heroines who are being taught the error of their ways are beautiful fair-skinned damsels who are wealthy and educated, isn’t that a sort of reverse class discrimination? Sort of ‘Let’s show these wealthy educated b—! their place’? Again, if a rich guy was shown stalking, he is almost always the villain. In all these stalking-as-romance films, the rich girl’s equally rich BF/fiance is always bad. Not class discrimination on the part of the story writer/director? No? Class discrimination only works one way?
For me, personally [and I warrant, for other women here as well], I don’t give a damn if the stalker is dark, fair, educated, uneducated, rich, poor, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Isaayi: I have been stalked; I don’t like the feeling. ‘Love’ is not the emotion that rises in me when I see someone intrude into my personal space. Sympathy is not what I feel when he has ‘done so much for me’ [And if socio-economic class had a role to play in our responses, then Donald Trump wouldn’t be facing accusations of sexual assault from multiple women. He’s rich and powerful and he too thinks that he can get any woman he wants, because…]
But never mind. I’m not going to change your opinion that all scenarios are equal and the same, and therefore, our calling out anything at all is a sheer waste of time. As it is, I’ve wasted enough of BR’s comment space, in trying to engage in a discussion on what stalking means to women, and what it means to have it normalised, justified, glorified on screen.
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Anu Warrier
October 14, 2016
Arun, thanks for clarifying. I apologised once before, and I apologise once again I misinterpreted that post. I’m sorry.
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Uncouth Village Youth
October 14, 2016
@Aadhy : Thankfully at the place I work, time in office is a separate metric, calculated (uneditable) by the system, to save us employees from subjective managers :). I have clearly explained why I have a soft corner for SK – not for the reason you are attributing to. You have the right to not call out something, and I have the right to point that out – even stevens ?
@Sharan : I felt blank after the movie. No emotions – parts of it were mildly entertaining, rest meh. If I really think hard, I might have felt wasted money and time.
Anu: BR again took the logical route – did not accuse Arun of patronizing. I see that you have apologized. Do you really want me to explain again how in each of the movies I had mentioned, there was stalking involved. From what I have seen Shalini(was not encouraging, neither was she discouraging, is that a yes in wooing lingo ?), Trisha(clearly explains why theirs will not be a good match and STR doesn’t stop his pursuit), Sameera(I would be spooked if some random person, whom I had a conversation in a train with turns up at my home.She even explains why she is different from him,her aspirations and how this might not work out, and yet he decides to fly to US to pursue her. That she agrees is AFTER the stalking happens all the way to US) were clearly reluctant participants in the initial wooing process. But then they HAD to accept the heroes proposal – strange isn’t it – but I’m fine with it.
Iswarya : Kudos on doing something, when most of us leave with commenting. I’m a longtime lurker here – I remember all the things from BR’s Alavanthan post in Anbe Sivam, people questioning BR on why he didnt review Dhasa, to the King and his times, to kadakumar spoiling the party, to GVM ? thanking BR, rahini mentioning in one of the posts that all comments end up in MR,GVM,IR,to the time when i missed BR’s post due to his Berlin travel, to his Bitty ruminations and all the way to your guest post on stalking. I also promptly went through the studies you had linked. Have I earned the cred to post here 😀 – now that was a patronizing post :). I for one am still not convinced, we need more data and rigorous scientific analysis on this subject. The existing studies are sparse – smoking – cancer linkage studies are still debated. Asking for data is not denying the existence, of a phenomenon. The onus to prove, is on those who claim that it exists.
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mak
October 14, 2016
devi is worse apparently. BR could start with copy pasting the comments section from here to the Devi thread
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mak
October 14, 2016
and ei, what is this, people here rebut select sections of information. not that this is something like TCC or Orkut (anyone here a part of the famous Tamil Cinema Community) in the erstwhile social networking haven? But offlate, BR blog has become an irresistible forum for debate
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mak
October 14, 2016
BR – Will wordpress tell you which 5 posts of yours have the maximum comments ever?
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Amit Joki
October 15, 2016
Kid: You called a spade a spade. Thanks. As far as trope is concerned, yes, I was wrong. I am in the habit of grasping the meaning by its context and I thought of it as something on which the story is to be based upon. Wrong.
I can find my comments being detrimental and contributing nothing.
So I would shut my ass for the better.
For others: The defending was done just for the sake of it along the lines of BRs justification. Forgot to address it to him. So kind of became an independent view.
Sorry for the inconvenience caused.
Cheers to a less noise from a crappy person 🙂
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Sathyan
October 15, 2016
All – I have been a regular reader of this blog for a long time but this is my first comment. The varying views on Stalking is too frightening for me to ignore. About myself, suffice to say I am a guy who did his graduation in Chennai. For me, Stalking in any form is a no-no. I am baffled by the multiple definitions thrown around in this blog. From reading this blog, trying to define Stalking by using dictionary meanings or any penal codes is not going to make anyone understand.
Going behind a girl without the consent of a girl is a big NO. Throw any word to define this sentence – call it stalking or chasing or any word that suits you. Again to repeat – Going behind a girl without the consent of a girl is a big NO.
What is scary for me is the defence for the nonsense shown by the recent Dhanush and SK movies. Looks like both are competing for the Best Stalker in Movies Award. Wow, Filmfare should come with an award like that!!
Finally, girls or women are not objects that are to be chased or to be won between competing men. All these issues are arising due to the objectification of women. They are also human beings like us guys. Let us treat them as human beings rather than as objects that are to be won.
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Iswarya
October 15, 2016
Uncouth village youth: Since there’s no way I could read your mind, I have no clue if anyone with a new moniker has been a lurker. Your previous responses didn’t reveal that you had read through all that had led us this far. Anyway, I was expressing my exhaustion which is real & complete. Frankly, “Out of the ~80 million people in TN, we have zeroed in on a few isolated incidents and ‘scientifically’ linked them to stalking on screen. That’s one hell of a sample space I would say” is no way to give anyone a hint that you have gone through a 10-year compilation of medical research already.
Had you probably expressed your disagreement with the research citations in an earlier thread (and if I had remembered that), I might have chosen to use a different tone. Anyway thanks for acknowledging what we do. Of course we know there will be people unconvinced by any kind of data and willing to split hairs. It’s alright. It’s not a perfect world anyway.
Arun: I must admit your translation “I don’t know what the hell – enna naragam da pesure” just cracked me up. But then, at the expense of sounding like some gatekeeping grandpa here, I wonder if you are new to this place. People have said pointedly nasty things about and to others here, especially in the glory days of a certain banned commenter. Yes, of late, we have been trying to do a lot of clean housekeeping but even then I don’t think anyone here was attacking SK below the belt. He has made terrible career choices, the consequences of which, have unfortunately not been confined to himself. So, those among the aggrieved are bound to use strong language to express their protest. How is that surprising? You see that SK is hardly ready to budge despite the bludgeoning. You think pillow fight might bring better results?
Olemisstarana: I know this is out of the blue, but yeah, I now sense your frustration and see why you felt that the petition was tepidly worded. Working with refugees, acid attack/rape survivors, stalking victims, etc on a regular basis does erode one’s preening need for politeness. As a fellow campaigner and filmmaker was telling people the other day, the only true response to “But why are you SO ANGRY?” is “Why the hell aren’t YOU angry, living as you do in this incredibly *messed up world? Is it simply because your privilege is blinding you and you don’t give a flying *fig about fellow humans suffering?” (There, I self-censored against swearing!)
mak: As I’ve been repeating here, I confess I’m very tired. I may happily engage in a discussion with you on another occasion. So please excuse me when I don’t answer all the points you have raised. But thanks for liking my letter. I’m running pillar to post with video shoots, campus drives and press interviews to the point where I have lost track of where the stuff I write gets published. So, I didn’t even know that Times of India had published my letter. Would you be kind enough to provide a link? Also, did this appear in print? Date?
Everyone who has been writing, arguing, keeping the discussion alive, thank you. If the stalking trope eventually disappears from Tamil cinema (as marrying the rapist seems to have done), you can be proud that you contributed to it.
Also glad to share with others who don’t read Tamil magazines that, Vikatan has come out with a scathing review of Remo in its print edition, calling it “bad both for Tamil cinema as well as society,” hard-hitting words that it had not even used for the epic disgrace of a film called “I”. So, yes, there is hope yet!
Final note: Data related to stalking and media influence is right now being gathered in Chennai as a result of this campaign. The results of the study, headed by a professor of Criminology here in Chennai, will be out in a few more months. Those who insist on data, please hang around for updates.
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Anu Warrier
October 15, 2016
@Villager: Not that it’s any of your business, but I apologised to Arun almost immediately after I made that first comment about patronising women, without waiting for his clarification.
The films you referenced, I haven’t watched, except for Alaipayuthey. I said that in my response to Amit. If it is as you say, I’m willing to call that out as well. In Alaipayuthe, as far as I can remember, he is attracted to her, begins to follow her – interest/disinterest notwithstanding – she responds, and then they go on from there. There is not rejection of his pursuit, verbally or non-verbally. The relationship develops and the focus was on what happens after.
I did mention having a problem with Raanjhnaa; I have a problem with Dil Se as well. With Darr and Anjaam as well. The last three had fair-skinned, upper-class, wealthy men stalking the women. Does that innoculate me against being ‘elitist’ or ‘classist’?
The only reason I’m referencing Remo and Sivakarthikeyan is because I’m commenting under the review of this particular film. It does not mean he’s the only one responsible for the whole trope or for how it influences young men. But In general, because films have this wide reach and because young men know no better, not having access to being friends with young women, it behooves them to treat this responsibly.
You wait for the data and the scientific studies; we women will ‘prove’ the co-relation between films-that-normalise-stalking and stalking-in-real-life by being stalked/sexually assaulted/raped/murdered – all in the name of true love.
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sameoldnewbie
October 15, 2016
Right. It’s the end of a long long day now for me people, so I apologise in advance if I sound rude/terse. Every cell in my body is begging me to go to sleep but I feel compelled to write.
Anu, Iswarya, Rahini and a few others- What can I say? Heartfelt thanks for fighting the good fight. It’s amazing how much energy you have to try and find a way through what seems like a brick wall. Amen to that.
Iswarya – The petition you started has been such an excellent catalyst to stir up things and make people (in media and cine industry particularly) not ignore the issue anymore. I read the articles you had written and watched your TV interviews with much admiration. Not only that, a nice cross section of media (reaching people from different backgrounds) seems to have picked up this issue now. For instance, was pleasantly surprised to find this very female-centric review of Remo in Ananda Vikatan (https://twitter.com/hashtag/vikatan)
Uncouth youth – “X is bad, I agree. But Y is also bad. So how can you call out X?” – We are saying ‘call out Y as well’. Seriously, how hard is it to comprehend? If my manager says ‘You are not putting in the requisite hours in office. So is X. But then I will continue to call out only you’, I’m going to be mighty pissed off. And I’m sure the company policy too would not accept his line of thinking.”
Umm – IMO its NOT an example of the stalking issue we are talking about here – we are talking apples and oranges buddy. I will give you another example. Imagine there is this new student X who has taken to bullying your kid at school. X is funny, popular, charming, charismatic, comes from a non-academic family background and has made it to school through hard work and hard work alone. Now you have become aware of recent nasty incidents happening to bullied kids in your child’s school which have resulted in death or life-changing circumstances for some. Now when your child’s health, mental well-being and even his/her life is at stake, what would your priority be? Scouring and analysing which bunch of graduated kids may or may not have bullied your kid previously which has next-to-no bearing anymore on your child’s imminent future, or furiously working with the authorities NOW to make sure your child’s current bully i.e. X doesn’t cause anymore trouble and is himself (or herself) educated on bullying issues? Maybe X doesn’t realise he is actually a bully, maybe he thinks its all a bit of fun – he is probably not aware of the trauma he is actually causing your child, or maybe he isn’t aware his popularity (and his inherent role-model qualities) is creating more copy-cat bullies, or maybe he knows everything and still doesn’t care – are these not the more relevant questions to you as a parent? Your analysis of class/socio-economic make-up of graduated kids might be good research material to understand bullying, but no way are you telling me it is a prerequisite (particularly one that will get you mighty pissed off otherwise) to identify and call out every privileged ex-student who might have been a bully in that school, before you would even consider doing anything about the issue at hand – i.e. X.
On SK – My personal opinion is this. He is a likeable boy-next-door personality with a natural sense of humour, and there is definitely space for people like him in cinema. However it is clear to see for anyone that he is bidding for stardom. Now we all know, while a movie with a normal actor revolves around the script, a movie with a star actor revolves around the star mainly (except a few). All normal logic is thrown out the window and with it any respect for the female leads mostly. I for one, was hoping it will all end with Rajini, Kamal, Vijay, Ajith and the lot and that the new crop of actors will be much more sensible. It looks like I was wrong. Well then, is it too much to ask that the new (wannabe) star actors are at least more socially responsible (like the new versions of poisonous-chemicals-within-permissible-levels instant noodles)? They are obviously Kidding themselves if they think what they do is ‘just art’ and that it will have no influence on youngsters and that they are only reflecting life. As the cliche goes, with great power comes great responsibility and if they can’t handle it, they should release a statement saying they shouldn’t be considered role models. So SK, with his quest for new age stardom, will indeed be validly subjected to criticism and calling out, and nothing is unfair about it.
Lastly, Sigh… Feminists feminists feminists – When did feminism become such a complex word to comprehend? Reading some of the comments here reminded me of this https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/jun/22/bridget-christie-feminists-sex-men-book-extract I can’t say it better than Bridget Christie. It’s a little Frenchy so reader discretion is advised. (Feminists – it will hopefully provide you some much needed comic relief).
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Madan
October 15, 2016
“It is not in the wildest dreams of the director to show a low class hunting for high class.
It is just that all heroines look like high class are all fair skinned and will attract eye balls which is good for BO. ” – I don’t know if anybody has already addressed this but these two statements are contradictory. If you say it just so happens that heroines who look high class are fair skinned, then it seems to imply that it is important for the director that the heroine looks high class when courted by a low class looking hero? Also, it’s a myth that men are only attracted to fair skinned women. There have been long discussions on this before in this space. But I want to bring up something more since you and a few others are very much in the habit of lashing out at ‘elitism’. OK, one of my Tambram friends married a dark skinned woman and another is engaged to a dark skinned woman as well. I never rejected proposals from dark skinned women; it was they who turned me down, lol. What in heaven’s name do you want? If you really hate us high caste ‘elites’ so much, why do you desire so much that your favourite heros should court high class looking women? Since we are all so snotty and risible in your opinion, why don’t you pick somebody you can get along with? 😉 Yes, it’s true that it is more important to change to come about in the people’s mindset. But if this thread is any indication, I don’t see any indication of such a change either; rather, entangled with the strenuous attempts to defend your so called messiahs is an attempt to defend regressive norms. You can be part of the change…by rejecting glorification of inappropriate behaviour in cinema. It little matters whether somebody else is reluctant to criticise a 30 year old Mani Rathnam film? How does that stop YOU from changing YOUR attitude?
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Madan
October 15, 2016
“When did feminism become such a complex word to comprehend? ” – I would really not want to take this up in a thread where the women need all the help they can get but in the interests of fairness I must. Sorry to say that some strands of feminism are pursuing an anti male agenda and/or an effort to demonstrate women as being superior to men in most if not all walks of life. Cue the utterly laughable campaign to crown Serena the greatest tennis player, THE, not just greatest female tennis player. Yeah, Serena who struggles to get racquet on John Isner’s serves in Hopman Cup, the same Isner who rarely gets a set off Federer. How on earth can she be greater than even a top 50 ATP player! This has simply gone way too far now and has a quality of vengeful retribution about it – they made us suffer for centuries so it’s our turn now. Well, if you really believe in that, then sorry to say that there will be a backlash and it should not surprise anyone. And it is most unfortunate since much still remains to be done, especially in India. We have one India where stalking is considered a must have in films and another where the I Was Raped video is considered to be a good idea. Sigh, heading for disaster, we are.
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arun
October 15, 2016
The core discussion on this particular post is stalking..So no diverting the topic here..But IMO I am really tired of Hate comments in internet whether its Youtube comments section or internet blogs..Also IMO, you cannot make People, driven by money and fame budge through any kind of words..at least whatever said in forums like this..They simply dont care .It just creates a hateful atmosphere, get people emotional , prevents the readers from engaging in a pragmatic way and involve in any meaningful discussion. Someone Dont needs to be aggressive just assertive to make a point. Having said that its been eye opener for me to engage in these discussion and definitely will do whatever to nip out stalking , at the least not to see the movies of SK if the trend continues.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
October 15, 2016
If you really hate us high caste ‘elites’ so much, why do you desire so much that your favourite heros should court high class looking women?
Since when did ‘class’ become synonymous with caste?
Take Dhanush’s role in Padikkathavan for instance – he comes from a highly educated upper middle class family. However, that isn’t the case with Tamannah’s family.
Cue the utterly laughable campaign to crown Serena the greatest tennis player, THE, not just greatest female tennis player.
A) http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/first-player-to-score-a-double-century-in-a-one-day-international-cricket-match (Feb ’10)
B) http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/most-runs-scored-by-a-player-in-an-icc-world-cup-match-(female) (Dec ’97)
Can you see the difference?
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Nishanth
October 15, 2016
Insane article in The Hindu
http://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/mindframe-the-10-commandments-of-remo/article9219374.ece
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
October 15, 2016
In 7G, Sethu and Guna, there is a clear distinction between these two voices.
Aadhy: When the ‘elites’ among us have a tough time drawing a line between the two ‘voices’, how can you expect the ‘casual’ audience to identify with them?
As for Guna, I’m copy-pasting an excerpt from venkatesh’s comment (from the ‘Cinema, society, chicken, egg’ thread):
Now, let me also tell you the influence of Guna on the public. Among KH narpani mandrams, this movie is a huge hit and very highly regarded.
As an anecdote, In Madurai, they opened a big fanclub in a kuppam (close to Solaimalai theatre , near Mill Colony , for those in the know). area right after the release of the movie because in this movie Kamal Hassan looked “just like them”.
Further, the songs “Kanmani Anbodu Kaathalan” and “Paartha Vizhi Paartha” have been parodied multiple times in a lot of ‘low class’ Tamil comedies.
We all might know Kamal’s intent behind making Thevar Magan. Did it work? In fact, it has only worsened the issue. Eight years ago, there was a brutal clash between two sections of students belonging to the Ambedkar Law College, Chennai (it took place in broad daylight in the heart of the city). “Potri paadadi penne” was apparently played out loud in the college hostels.
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Madan
October 15, 2016
“Since when did ‘class’ become synonymous with caste?” – They are not but I see the two being conflated frequently in this space so I am going to play the same card in reverse now (even in the above case, class has no colour so the inference on my part is justified). Sorry. I just don’t care. I’ve had enough. Who asked for fair skinned heroines? Not us. The people who do should own up responsibility for it, otherwise it becomes lame to constantly play the caste card against Brahmins.
“Can you see the difference?” – The difference is in Belinda Clark’s case, it was more of a blatant oversight. Statisticians should have pointed out that she held the record already and SRT’s wasn’t going to be the first double hundred. I would certainly categorize subsequent rationalisations by fans that her innings wasn’t worthy of being called an international innings as sexist without a shred of doubt. In the second case, the people claiming that Serena should be called the greatest tennis player are well aware of Federer or Sampras or Nadal’s achievements and have concocted a socio-cultural narrative to crown Serena thusly (while Djokovic, growing up in a war torn country and facing anti Serb prejudice, will always be white privileged male, eh?). I wouldn’t object to it ordinarily but I remember one of the authors making this claim even said that the inability of people to ‘accept’ that Serena is the greatest tennis player (both tours combined) shows how sexist they are. I am sorry, but how is that sexist? It’s a blatantly obvious fact that Serena is not greater than Federer and if my saying so offends some shrinking violets, I really don’t give a damn.
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Aditya (Gradwolf)
October 15, 2016
Madan: Wow I hope you were sarcastic there (it’s not really coming across) otherwise you really sound like Raymond Moore.
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Madan
October 15, 2016
Aditya: I am not sarcastic in the least and what I said is what everybody who plays tennis would say. I think we should be allowed the right to our opinion without having some know it alls who don’t play the game telling us that we are sexist. There’s absolutely no case for Serena being the greatest tennis player ever. Just because she won more slams than Fed doesn’t mean anything because they are not the same tours (and she’s still only level with Graf, a point obviously lost on her over enthusiastic fans). Her first serve is exceptional for a woman but it is pretty unremarkable on the men’s tour where most serve around 120 mph and above. Second serve has hardly any kick compared to the men’s serves. So on and so forth. If casual watchers don’t care about these technicalities, that’s not my problem but that doesn’t make me sexist. That numbers bear it out; the women simply don’t play at anywhere near the same level as the men.
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Aditya (Gradwolf)
October 15, 2016
Lol I can’t even… I’ll just leave this here and show myself out. Looks like the thinly veiled MRAs exist here after all.
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/80687504/a-handy-guide-to-keeping-sexism-out-of-womens-tennis-coverage
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billa
October 15, 2016
Madan: Sorry for butting in, and talking about a different topic. I agree that Serena is inferior when pitted against the bigwigs in men’s tennis. But, she surely can make a case for being the goat in women’s tennis. Have been following her play since early 2005/6 and her game is far superior to Steffi, from what I gather from YouTube. Steffi was also helped a lot by the unfortunate accident to Monica who was never really the same. Monica won 8 slams in a period of dominance, Steffi could do nothing. And Steffi remained relatively injury-free.
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Madan
October 15, 2016
Yes, please, don’t engage me on objective terms while making thinly veiled insults and pretending to be above such discussions; yeah, you don’t fool me. This is the very problem of the times we live in, everything is touchie-feelie stuff. I have NOT questioned equal prize money. But just because the prize money is equal doesn’t mean the two tours are equal. And that is what the feminist crowd is slyly attempting here – why not call Serena the greatest since the two tours are purportedly of equal quality. They never were equal; it just felt politically incorrect to offer lower prize money to women and hence the tournaments decided to give equal prize money. But of course they want to have it all now. Fine, but then please play against the men. Let’s not have a separate men’s and women’s tennis tourney; let’s merge them and if Serena wins, I will gladly call her the greatest ever. I am sure of the facts here and will not back down no matter how many times you or anybody else try to insinuate whatever the hell fancy character taints you can think of. I have watched women’s tennis since 1994 and continue to do so. I have the highest respect for the players…as long as nobody insults the men’s game so that the women’s game may gain some undue advantage. To expect me or anybody else to still keep quiet and not say anything just because it is somehow presumed to be sexist to do so is both unreasonable and unrealistic.
That you just blindly cited Raymond Moore without understanding the issues at hand show that you just want to peddle the popularly accepted politically correct line. Yeah, pretty fearless you are!
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Madan
October 15, 2016
@billa: She does have a case for GOAT of women’s tennis, no question (and in my opinion, IS the female GOAT). I was just explaining how the rationale for calling her combined GOAT is ridiculous. If you are going to cite no of slams, then she is still only joint GOAT with Graf. And of course, no way Graf or Serena are on par with the greatest male tennis players.
And thanks for the support. It’s pretty ridiculous, this recent bizarre instance of anti-male feminism wading into tennis. I feel strongly about it and insist on talking about it when I get the chance. I don’t care if opposing stupidity has amounted to going against the grain in today’s times.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
October 15, 2016
If you really hate us high caste ‘elites’ so much, why do you desire so much that your favourite heros should court high class looking women?
Do you realize that you’d implicitly assumed that all ‘high class looking women’ belong to the ‘higher’ castes?
The difference is in Belinda Clark’s case, it was more of a blatant oversight
Quite possible, but you think Clark’s double hundred is celebrated the same way as SRTs’? The problem here lies in the difference between ‘fact’ and ‘opinion’. In Clark’s case it’s an established fact. Besides, when you say: I think we should be allowed the right to our opinion … you’re contradicting yourself. If the Sri Lankans think Sangakkara is the greatest batsman to have played Test cricket, let it be …
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Iswarya
October 15, 2016
Appearing on live TV show tonight at 9 – Nerpada Pesu on Pudhiya Thalaimurai channel regarding #CallingOutStalking. Do watch!
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Madan
October 15, 2016
“Do you realize that you’d implicitly assumed that all ‘high class looking women’ belong to the ‘higher’ castes?” – No, I have not made that assumption and I knew you’d bring this up. I am saying it is very much a part of the narrative in these films. It’s a double whammy; low class and low caste dark guy wins over fair skinned girl from upper caste who normally reject suitors from low caste. Fine, show it that way if you like but then stop whining about the ‘elites’ because it’s pretty boring and predictable now. I AM consciously exaggerating here but as I said earlier, I am really fed up of this angle being brought up every time. I want to demonstrate what it would be like if we turned the tables on this line of argument. It is certainly not very difficult. Why should I be reasoned and measured all the time if it is to no avail?
“If the Sri Lankans think Sangakkara is the greatest batsman to have played Test cricket, let it be …” – Of course, I have no problem if it merely stopped at Serena fans thinking she’s the greatest ever, both tours combined. I am pretty sure there have been people who felt like that and nobody bothered. There is a problem however when columnists start forcing it down people’s throats saying that to not ‘accept’ (note the word accept) Serena is the greatest is only down to our sexism. No, there’s no role for gender here. I can prove that she can’t play as well as Federer; I doubt she would deny it privately if not publicly. And it’s got nothing to do with power. Even on the soft shots like volleys, slices and drops, Federer is way better. It is very annoying when our opinion is roundly dismissed as sexist with no counter argument as to how could she be better lick for lick than Fed. The articles I read stated it almost as if it was plainly obvious like two plus two equals four that Serena is the greatest and it is only because of sexism that she’s being denied her due. That is simply preposterous.
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sameoldnewbie
October 15, 2016
Madan – Regarding Serena, I know earlier this year when a reporter posed a question if she considers herself one of the greatest female athletes of all time, she responded that she considers herself as one of the greatest athletes of all time (she omitted the ‘female’ part but did keep the ‘one of the’ part, and rightly so). She has also made it clear she thinks Kerber should win WTA player of the year. Nike has created an ad in which they call her greatest athlete – is that what this is about? Nike obviously have pointed out what criteria they have used to call her that – and yes testosterone is not in it. It is their opinion, their ad. Not everyone has to accept it and is welcome to have different opinions on it. I am not sure what feminist groups (as you call them) have had to do with all of this? What articles are you referring to? Sorry, can you post the links please?
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Madan
October 15, 2016
@ sameoldnewbie: I only now came to know about Serena herself jumping into the fray. No, I don’t agree, she is not one of the greatest athletes ever. She has only had to play other women and not men so we do not have any evidence to go by to suggest that she would have been one of the greatest athletes ever in a combined comparison (on the other hand, her loss in 2001 to a 200th ranked male player indicates that she may not have been). And when you use the gender-neutral ‘athlete’ without male/female suffix, it implies combined. It is not disrespectful to say Serena is the greatest female tennis player; it is simply an allusion to the fact that she plays only against female players (whereas chess legend Judit Polgar has played against male opponents and who was ranked as high as no.8 and beaten among others Kasparov, far more legendary than Serena imo ).
As for the articles, I first came across references to this in a strident article written by a feminist where among other things she referred to how Serena is acknowledged as the greatest female tennis player but not the greatest tennis player which shows that women still have to battle gender discrimination. I don’t remember the title of the article and hence am not able to link it. I came across another dumb article on Guardian which attempts to make a case for Serena being the greatest sportsperson ever without making a single substantial point in that direction, just a load of rhetoric.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/07/serena-williams-greatest-sportsperson-ever
I will quote the sub headline here: “and been way ahead at the top of the game for two decades. What man can match her?” – Um, Tendulkar for example?
Just browsing through the net I found more evidence of this kind of sly imposing of ideological slants. This one from Huffington Post, as ever in the lead:
“To box her into the category of “female athletes” ― to say she is great, but just great “for a girl” ― is a dig, accidental or not, that she has every right to call out.”
Link here: http://www.huffingtonpost.in/entry/serena-williams-greatest-athletes_us_577e884ee4b0344d514e3d7d
Again, it’s not a dig and if she really feels so sore about it, she should have taken up Johnny Mac on his invitation for a Battle of Sexes against him. Calling her one of the greatest female athletes simply recognises the nature of the competition she chose to play in. I am sorry but she simply wants to have the cake and eat it too.
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Anisha
October 15, 2016
I’ve been a long-time lurker of this blog, and for some reason, I just felt like commenting for the first time in this discussion. Seriously, so so glad the discussion is finally out there for people to criticize and question. Iswarya deserves a lot of credit here. On Twitter and all, you could see SK fans burning with our anti-stalking posts, because they just can’t defend their Anna’s sentiments. In fact, one justified Remo as a strong feminist film, because it shows that the hero is ok with a girlfriend/wife more educated than him or whatever.
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brangan
October 16, 2016
Anisha: The reason Remo is a feminist film is that the hero actually bothers to have a heroine opposite him, to fall in love with. Can’t be easy, given all the self-love.
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Anuja Chandramouli
October 16, 2016
I am actually glad Remo got made and that a much needed conversation has been started regarding responsible, sensible and sensitive portrayals of men and women on the big screen. I was sick of being the only one frothing at the mouth when Vijay called Asin out in the blockbuster hit, Sivakasi for having the gall to protest against Eve teasing especially when she had stepped out of the house wearing nothing but a bra and jetty (apparently in the deep south, shorts and a tee are provocative lingerie), while all around there was a cacophony of wild cheering and approving whistles.
But then as well as now, I don’t think only Vijay and SK or even MCPs like Perarasu and the whathisname who directed Remo are to blame. I am disgusted that our smart, discerning leading ladies like Asin and Keerthi Suresh are game to be a part of these projects since they are being richly compensated. Surely it would be more fitting if our fair and lovely heroines were to take a firm stand against sexism and the glorification of stalking which has so many up in arms? In the interest of fairness, why should we wait for the attitudes of men alone to change? Given that our society is steeped in gender bias women also need to start getting proactive to empower themselves and others both.
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tonks
October 16, 2016
Im sharing here a link to a TV interview where Iswarya shares space with movie makers.
Iswarya, you absolutely rocked! The ending was what I liked best. The ‘education of the educators’ or in other words the sensitisation of the film makers which is the crux of the petition is exactly what we need. I was having second thoughts about whether it was naive to think a campaign like this would ever make a difference, I thought that perhaps this was a losing battle considering how the women too are flocking in hordes to see such movies. (A little like those clueless women sharing cringe-worthy Whatsapp jokes that are derogatory to women and put down wives) It looks like society in TN is very misogynistic and perhaps a little brainless, why else would movies like these become such run away hits? And won’t such run away successes in turn breed more of the same? I think what Srinivas said here once is what’s the truth “every society gets the movies it deserves”. The little sensitisation and awareness achieved may be a small beginning but I fear the way to real change in movies and in society, is a long way in coming. But seeing this interview made me a little more positive, perhaps ultimately this will pave way for a change.
The moderator in the interview was very, very good. He totally gets the crux of the issue and he was very good at politely but firmly reining in the gentleman who totally doesn’t seem to get the issue and who spoke about “society ladies drinking” and giving women the onus of “maintaining high cultural standards”.
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umamaheswarans
October 16, 2016
About Kneepads pesu. I was pleasantly surprised by Iswarya’s eloquent Tamil. Oviya at her usual best. Moderator was very good as well. Thanks Iswarya for fighting our fight. My best wishes.
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sakratalkie
October 16, 2016
Just from the video there seems to be a concensus that stalking is bad. However, there is a lot of stuff that needs to be discussed, especially how women are perceived. The producer went on and on about the purity of women and how they are like goddesses that need to be cared for. Can we let this godifying go and see women as humans first. He claims to uplift women but really puts them at a distance so we can shirk off whatever responsibility we have. And also simply blaming alcohol is not helpful at all.
Kudos to Iswarya. Discussions like this need to be maintained so that people be aware and let that reflect in their choice of movies.
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sakratalkie
October 16, 2016
Don’t want to let the “Stalkergate” to get the full attention, but shouldn’t we also discuss about the below:-
http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/why-do-you-vilify-and-sexualize-our-profession-nurses-ask-filmmakers-51144
Whats your thought on this @BR ?
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Gaah
October 16, 2016
Iswarya – you’re operating in God mode. Well done! That producer was such a jackass. I’m breaking out in hives hearing him. What a close minded, patriarchal, zero intellect ass. Really ticked me off when he brought up rich mother he’s seen in clubs. Wtf! I can well believe this is the majority population in Tamil cinema as well as in the Tamil audience. No wonder this shit sells.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
October 16, 2016
Friends. Do check out this outrageously hilarious take on Remo by humourist Balakumar of Adyar Talk. Totally different spin on it from a non-movie perspective.
The para on Apollo Hospitals is priceless
http://kbalakumar.com/#category/3/article/3140
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Aadhy
October 16, 2016
Honest Raj : When the ‘elites’ among us have a tough time drawing a line between the two ‘voices’, how can you expect the ‘casual’ audience to identify with them?
I see your point. But as far as a movie recognizes the problem with a character, I won’t hold it responsible for promoting that character trait. And it’s not that difficult actually. Just make the female character not fall for it. Even she does, make him face some kind of repercussion for his acts or undergo some change as someone said, before she falls for him. Or Make him a scum so that no one would really want to identify themselves with him. Or atleast have ONE character telling the hero that this is not right. There IS one such character in Remo, which is, …the comedian , the last of all people anyone would take seriously.
But I agree with you on one thing. Whether it’s Guna, where the movie identifies the problems with the man, or Remo, where the movie sells the man’s acts as something cool to emulate, the influence is equally there. A lot of people don’t differentiate and actually don’t care, if it’s a stalker movie or a movie with a stalker character in it. Just that I wouldn’t hold the latter responsible for promoting the ideology.
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Aadhy
October 16, 2016
I meant Remo as stalker movie, and Guna as movie with a stalker character, just to make things clear.
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billa
October 16, 2016
Tonks: Thanks a lot for that video.
Iswarya: That was awesome. Thanks for participating and putting your points out in a very eloquent manner. I remember you highlighting that class incident in another thread in this blog (I signed that change.org petition and was glad to receive continual updates by mail).
P.S:I liked the fact that Oviya didn’t hold herself back using terms like, ‘kirukku pudicha, vagrama karpanai’. Shots fired.
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Mohan
October 16, 2016
As Iswarya says in the video, educating the educators is a valid point and it’s high time directors and script writers enhanced their knowledge of legal and other psychological aspects of man-woman relationship. Their films should transcend low level thinking and sordid imagination the sole aim of which is to excite clueless and uninformed teenagers. That is the minimum ethical obligation that the filmdom owes the society.
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tonks
October 16, 2016
For those of you who haven’t signed the petition yet, here’s the link :
https://www.change.org/p/tamil-filmmakers-and-actors-stop-glorification-of-stalking-in-tamil-films
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Iswarya
October 16, 2016
Wow, thanks for all the voices of support and compliments coming from this blog! So touched. I was apprehensive since this was my first live appearance in front of a camera. I was not even sure of what was the ‘agreed decorum’ there for reacting to other people speaking. Every time that elderly (gentle?)man spoke, I was simply rolling my eyes in incredulity! 🙂 Anyway, I hope this has made some dents somewhere.
Next thing, we’ve done a short explainer video about the campaign (in under 4 min) that will be uploaded on YouTube and share-able on WhatsApp. Will post it here soon. Please do help us spread the word. Very exciting times ahead! 🙂
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
October 16, 2016
Tonks : Many Thanks for posting the video link.
Iswarya : Great job on the show !
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sree1824
October 16, 2016
Commenting for the first time here. Thought you guys would like the below piece on the phenomenon that is REgina MOtwani 🙂
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brangan
October 16, 2016
sree1824: That was so, so funny. Thanks 🙂
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KayKay
October 17, 2016
Reading and relishing the comments here, with a special shout out to The Warrior, Ole Miss, Iswaryam and Rahini Goliath for continuing to give witty and erudite responses to what is essentially the same response to the same tired, half-baked defenses of cinematic flotsam like Remo and all it’s predecessors.
I’m especially bemused by this argument that goes “You call out SK for the creepy stalker character he plays. You give Madhavan and Surya a free pass for playing one. You’re elitist”
Hahahahahahahaha….wha-whaaaaaat?????
First off, someone point me in the direction where I can get myself these “Alternate Cuts” of AP and VA, because they must have seen some version I didn’t. For the record I love AP but can’t understand the love for VA, an overlong narrative mess that got by on Surya’s six pack and a hot HJ soundtrack. Having said that…….
Madhavan and Surya’s characters exhibit stalker behavior? In which Planet???
Guys who espouse these points of view must not get out much on the dating scene.
Take it from someone who HAS been on the dating scene. A Lot. In a country with a vibrant dating culture where you’re not only lucky enough to go out with interesting Indian women, but interesting women of other cultures. And while not all of them ended memorably (some could even be classified a disaster on par with Oil Spills, Rainforest Exterminations, Ozone Layer Depletions and Remo), they did give me many an insight into Male-Female relationships, one of which, the MOST important one, Lord KayKay will now proceed to dispense to you clueless saps.
You ready?
The universal law of relationships goes thus (grab a pen if your memory retention is poor.):
Men do the picking, but women do the choosing.
There. Blow it up, laminate it, frame it, and hang it someplace that catches your eye before you head out on a date, or proceed to comment on conversations like this based on some pretty literal interpretations of movies to bolster your argument.
If a woman finds you interesting based on those first interactions, NOT in that stupid “I love you, need to have your baby ASAP” shit peddled by our filmmakers but as in “Hmmm, this guy’s interesting, wouldn’t mind getting to know him a little better” , then you’re given a little more leeway with regards to things like, maybe calling her later that night after a date, just because, you know, you wanted to check that she got home safely, or sending some flowers to the office or hell, even showing up at her place(maybe). Read the first line of this para again. ONLY if she finds you interesting.
If on the other hand, you come across as an arrogant, condescending asshole who confuses wit with caustic put downs and confidence with macho posturing (hallmarks of your garden variety Tamil Phillum Mass Hero) , then show up later at her house, and she’ll hit the speed dial for police assistance.
And sometimes, guys, because life can be a bitch, you may be none of the above, just….safe and dull, sparking absolutely zero interest in the lady. That’s just the way the cards fall. Pick yourself up and move on.
In both AP and VA, Madhavan and Surya approached their girls with wit, charm and oodles of charisma. Their ribbing and mockery was tinged with good humor, not spite fanned with insecurity. And we’re conflating this with those cringe-inducing scenes of Vijay/Dhanush/SK spewing their venomous bile designed not to woo the lady in question, but the hooting masses of misguided males who lap that shit up in the cheap seats? These guys don’t like women. Acknowledge that. These guys DON’T LIKE WOMEN.
Note: Obviously, when I’m using the name of the actors above, I’m actually talking about the way their characters are written. Vijay/Dhanush/SK may all be paragons of chivalry in real life for all I know.
And that’s my issue with love stories depicted in so many Tamil movies. Too much Crass, not enough Class. And Class has Jack Shit to do with your Caste/Skin Color/Upbringing, for those who think I’m hopping on THAT bandwagon. It’s that witty banter, that teasing out of interest, the joy of having an interesting conversation with an intelligent woman, it’s a crater-sized void in many scripts for so called “Romantic” (hahahaha!) Tamil movies.
Date Night for most of these writers and filmmakers must consist of clicking on PornHub and having wet wipes on standby.
Change needs to happen there. The men greenlighting these scripts and financing these films need to consist of those who have had REAL conversations and interactions with women, not one-sided encouragements shouted out to your favorite disrobing porn star.
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lowlylaureate
October 17, 2016
Buddies, someone mentioned Maan Karate and how SivaK (which is a better short form than SK) should be appreciated because he is not scion of some film family,
dei what is all this I say !!!
Anyway we at the Lowly Laureate has written about Maan karate which is the underdog movie to end all underdog movies, which was more offensive than the white girl seeking behaviors, although we didnt miss that as well. #werock
Yeah kamal did sing katta vandi katta vandi, so all actors should take the same career arc? kamal also did Kokila….#justsayingsaar kamal also pushed trolley forward for KB, kamal also did dance direction for ANR gaaru.
ellathukkum kamal ezhutha seri varadunga boss because….nevermind
#adellamsari our maan karate blog is here: read and have a happy week
Maghizcheez
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Marauder
October 17, 2016
Madan : The logical conclusion to your argument would mean No women would ever be GOAT ever in any sport except chess ? .. Don’t you think this is problematic ? In tennis, If women and men played in the same tour, No women will be in top 100 or even 200 barring maybe exceptions. Comparing Serena and Roger is comparing apples and oranges .
They don’t have the same strength and are not on equal footing to begin with. Ofcourse saying Serena is GOAT is as subjective as saying Roger is GOAT . But including Serena in the GOAT’s list , is that objectively bad ? I myself am a Federer fanatic and cried everytime he lost Finals, he could have won.
Also a point in support of Serena I can think of is , She made many comebacks in a highly fluctuating women’s game and has won 22 slams.
Also I agree that some of the ” feminists?” could be men-hating. But are they really feminists in the first place even if self-proclaimed..I don’t think they are IMHO. So we should be ignoring the men haters and giving space for real feminism.
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Rahini David
October 17, 2016
KayKay: There you are. Proceeding to print that out and pin it right next to me. 🙂
Madan: I don’t know how to explain this. But I couldn’t agree more. I feel the same about the whole women in sports arguments.
Kid: Well, if Amit did not know the meaning of trope and used it wrong, at least you can be a little bit polite calling it out, no?
Altman: That’s why I find it absurd when people are ganging up on Amit Joki over his narrow views on relationships, women, stalking etc.. Exactly.
Amit: I know that you previously denied that your thoughts are colored by you being a Dhanush-fan. But what I have noticed something for a long time. You are not much into movies, just Dhanush movies. You don’t seem to have commented in even one of the other amateur film makers’ films, but you seem to have seen/read every single interview/article on him. Your tone of comments change a lot if you think Dhanush’s name is being tarnished and look for wild answers to protect his name.
You say you want to be a film maker. If making movies and becoming a film-makers is extremely important to you, extricate yourself from intense fandom and then see if the passion for movies still remains with you.
I certainly mean well.
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Filistine
October 17, 2016
“I have watched women’s tennis since 1994 and continue to do so. I have the highest respect for the players…”
Good to see you here, Mr Trump!
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Marauder
October 17, 2016
So much what-aboutery in the comments. Sad state of affairs.
pranesh : How are stalking and anti-religion/atheism the same ? One is illegal,immoral,antisocial and causes real harm. Other is not causing harm to anyone other than perceived slights.
venkatesh: I think I can understand where you are coming from though I am not really convinced it all being fake. But definitely I can agree his journey as an actor/choosing scripts seems to be manufactured and to rake in the moola than to be a good artist. It was one of those sad moments when he jumped into ‘Vellithirai’ like when Dhoni basically demoted himself to lower order/became a safe batsman than an explosive Dhoni he could have been.
I mean why would this talented comic with great timing do this other was beyond me. Ofcourse Its his life, but it would be nice to see him choose better scripts/roles.
I also don’t get the hatred towards SK other than his poor choice of scripts.
In VVS , SK moves on from loving “Kalyani” the teacher who gets engaged and later married . Why doesn’t he do the same here in ReMo ?
Another nuance is when the hero doesn’t let heroine know of his love/crush by talking to her but continues to follow/stalk her. I think this could also be considered borderline stalking even when the heroine hasn’t said No. Would be happy to hear counter arguments to this.
The heroine falling for the hero after saying No initially is fine, like say Madras. Karthi doesn’t stalk her after her No, does he ?
And what is stalking with consent O.o One is either stalking(w/o consent) or pursuing/wooing(with consent). It is not stalking when it is with consent, is it ?
Iswarya: Congrats for making this issue a talking point. I wish the talk-show was longer and you and Oviyaa could have made more points. But I guess social issues can only get this much time .
It was hilarious when the guy next to you started talking. “Kaadhaliyai adaivathu”,Teacher , Correspondent, Family-head ,actor,producer yada yada and , This guy showed the typical mindset of misogynistic male. Santhaanam doesn’t make vulgar comedy scenes anymore ? Haha. I like how he alludes to women drinking and how they need to be Thaailkulams and save the temple of family. Oviyaa was awesome and hit the nail on the head, never knew about Madaleruuthal- enlightening. Ajayan Bala reflected the many comments here and the stalking article thread about how cinema is reflection of life . Was disheartening when he also shifts to what-aboutery. He seemed like a veiled misogynist.
In your words ‘Gethu’ pannetinga
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Anu Warrier
October 17, 2016
Lord KayKay, may I please take leave to shake your hand? Thank you, kind sir. If I were world dictator, your insights would be required reading for every young man setting out on the dating scene.
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Uncouth Village Youth
October 17, 2016
KayKay : Thanks for the laughs dude. Your post certainly made my day.
Guys who espouse these points of view must not get out much on the dating
Now, that you have proved to us that you can figure out stuff about random internet commenters, please go and join NSA. The world needs you right now. Why spend enormous amount on NLP,Data Mining and stuff when we have guys like you giving out gyaan for free.
Take it from someone who HAS been on the dating scene. A Lot
Yeah right. We all absolutely believe the brag of some anonymous guy on the internet. I for a moment thought that a rediff commenter has misposted here. Are we supposed to be in awe of your achievements with dating women – or is that what you yearn yourself to be in the virtual world. You know what, you are like the North Indian Amits who studied engineering with me. They bragged about their GQ(girlfriend quotient), because obviously we Madurai/Tirunelveli guys never go out on a date. We always thought, date could be found, only on the calendar. You guys made for good laughs then – seems like there is not much improvement.
Men do the picking, but women do the choosing.
Very true that, women are never capable of picking, they just stand on sub urban trains waiting to be picked. And yeah, people will pin this, laminate this whatever.
Now on to your passionate defense of ‘ribbing and mockery was tinged with good humor, not spite fanned with insecurity’. Take the scene from AP, here is a medical student, on her way to college.You walk up to her and say, suggestively that you don’t look beautiful, blah blah , in what is effectively a cheesy pick up line. In one swoop, you have reduced an accomplished aspiring woman, to a ‘beautiful’ woman. Because, nothing else matters, nothing does . Same in VA, you woo the girl by singing ‘Penne un mel pizhai, you smile like Bougainvilla’ type pethals, which btw is way better than -nee enakku venum, ilayna sethuruven :P. Sameera, very clearly defines her aspirations and her qualifications without putting down Surya, and you guys take it as an yes. I’m reassured now, not every No, is a no, classy ‘Nos’ are come-hither signals.
Now that I think about it, I should also add NEP to this exalted list. How do you win over an ex ? Track her down , barge into her workplace and try to prove the superiority of your love, in front of impressionable school children, no less. And no, politely dropping a mail/sms will not work – take it from the man who has multiple notches on his bed post :P. Yay – ribbing and mockery with good humor. But then GVM, himself has accepted that it is AP(or evano oruvan song, I forgot) which inspired his love trilogy.
Justification of stalking, by saying the woman said yes – is an afterthought. Let’s say I’m pulling into my driveway and a police officer finds that i’m DUI. Should he leave me because, I caused no harm so far, on the roads ? It will be more like the smoking warning we are seeing these days – either it is a stalking scene or it is not, with no in between.
To all the others who are saying – we/I are/am using class as a cudgel, to beat a specific caste, come down from your high horse. Your statements are eminently laughable, when today in TN, every caste considers itself as upper caste socio-politically. Travel to Nagercoil/Sivakasi, Periyakulam/Theni, Dharmapuri/Salem to know what I mean. My grouse is only about people referring to dark skinned hero as a trope,project Dhanush/SK as the only culprits, while relatively fair skinned heroes(Karthi,Jiva,Simbu – how times change,Madhavan) are given a pass. This is not the Jim Crow south, where white women have to be protected from the black men. Thankfully Iswarya’s petition steers clear of this stereotypes – thank you for the small mercies.
Now, off to PornHub/xvideos to relieve myself.
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MANK
October 17, 2016
Well i just popped in to check out, how the hell does a sivakarthikeyan film review gets 200 + comments?. well now i know. its the old maalai nerathu mayakkam situation. I havent seen many SK movies , maybe 2 or 3. i find him no better or worse than every other superstar aspirant out there except VJS- who is ofcourse in a class of his own.
I dont have much to add to what others have already said, but just want to say that I am simply amazed by the fortitude, patience , persistence, Linguistic skills,.. shown by the likes of Iswarya, Anu ,Rahini,…etc not only in putting for their views on the subject – which they have done relentlessly and untiringly in blog after blog- but going to the extend of clarifying, re clarifying, explaining, apologising,… to get their point across – to people who simply wont or dont want to understand their pov- to the point that leave me totally exhausted. if it was me in you place, i would have tried once, may be twice and just said to hell with it and moved on. More than all the great points that you have put forth , your attitude and your passion shows the importance of issue at hand
Ishwarya,just saw your interview. you rocked. You were so spontaneous, eloquent and precise to the point in putting forth your views. i wish you had got more time to articulate your views. but the way you still were able to put across so many important points regarding misogyny and stalking in cinema was applause worthy. i wonder whether you got a copy of questions in advance or it was all spur of the moment. Anyway it was great.
Anu, your comments as always are so beautifully written. you know Kaykay is considered the superstar commenter around here – and rightly so 🙂 – , the way he can put across his views in such jazzy entertaining language is hard to top. but yours are the most beautiful . Even when if i dont agree with you on everything you say – and there has been so many in the past-, i am totally mesmerized by how you say them and never more so in this thread.
Rahini, its always nice to see you are fair about the subject that you are commenting about and knows when to separate the misogynistic from the stupid 🙂 i am sorry i havent visited your blog for some time – or for that matter here- now due to severe time constraints brought about work pressures. i always tend to miss out on great debates that are happening here . by the time i get here , its almost over. Regarding that scene in VA, i would like to call it romantic fantasy ,and like all fantastic romantic gestures, it does comes across as stupid. Honestly that entire Young surya- Sameera reddy episode is straight out of fantasy. As Kaykay was saying, the narrative structure of the film is quite a mess . An uneasy mix of romantic fantasy and reality. It was a great conception by GVM but not very well executed. Hence it come across as stupid.
Venkatesh, i am not sure what SK is doing is any different or worse than what some one like Vijay did (with the help of his father) or TRS is doing (crowning himself the Little superstar and shamelessly aping Rajni’s mannerisms) to achieve stardom. May be you know something that i dont
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Rahini David
October 17, 2016
Now that I think about it, I should also add NEP to this exalted list. How do you win over an ex ? Track her down , barge into her workplace and try to prove the superiority of your love, in front of impressionable school children, no less.
Well yes, that is stalking. No doubt. I hope no one ever says it wasn’t.
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Madan
October 17, 2016
“No women would ever be GOAT ever in any sport except chess ? .. Don’t you think this is problematic ?” – Well, they could probably match men in gymnastics, for instance, which IS an olympic sport. Is it problematic? Not objectively speaking, because men are physically stronger and until such time as that changes, this will continue to be the case. This is the whole reason men and women don’t compete against each other in sport. It would be unfair to the women. Now for whatever reason, the feminists, Nike and Serena want to upend this, claiming it is ‘discriminatory’ to call her ‘only’ greatest female athlete. Fine, but in that case, you have to compete with the men too if you want to establish yourself as the greatest athlete. It has to be earned. It is an epithet, not an entitlement. But there is a simple solution to mollify both sides. Just stop using gender neutral epithets in sports where the two genders don’t compete against each other. So, instead of GOAT, let’s use GMOAT (greatest male player of all time) and GFOAT (greatest female player of all time). Semantic issues can be solved by adjusting the vocabulary. They do not need structural reforms and they most certainly can be carried out without waging a war on the ‘other’.
“Comparing Serena and Roger is comparing apples and oranges .” Indeed, and that is why it would be objectively bad to call her GOAT, because they do not play in comparable competitions. But it is not I who have initiated the comparison, it’s they who wanted it, whoever that they encompasses, be it Nike, be it columnists or be it Serena herself. Now, once you compare, the physical strength of the male player weighs on the equation.
“I myself am a Federer fanatic and cried everytime he lost Finals, he could have won.” – Serena’s lost slam finals to Kerber, Muguruza, Sharapova, none of whom have double digit slam figures. Federer has yet lost only one slam final to a player not named Nadal or Djokovic and that’s Del Potro in 2009. I think the real problem is the lack of respect Fed fans have, for whatever reason, for Nadal and Djokovic as if they are unworthy and it’s all Fed’s fault he’s lost to them. No, they just happen to be all time great players too. The only player who would enter an ATG conversation from Serena’s era is Venus. That is not her fault but that is also why comparing slam totals of players in different tours makes no sense. To extend this point further, Navratilova, winner of 18 slams, played the much older and washed out Connors, winner of 8 slams, was given the doubles alley while Connors was given only one serve. Connors still won and serve volleyed more than he probably ever did in his career! So just because Serena has more slams in the WTA than Fed in the ATP doesn’t mean she’s a better player than Fed.
“But are they really feminists in the first place even if self-proclaimed..I don’t think they are IMHO. ” – And those feminists would then disagree with you and accuse you of man splaining or whatever.
“So we should be ignoring the men haters and giving space for real feminism.” – Right, and I am not denying them the space either. I had made a lot of contributions in the earlier thread about the depiction of stalking in films where a lot of people were very defensive about what they regarded as censorship of films when we were only advocating an appeal to voluntarily stop depicting stalking/boycotts by viewers. But when feminists lament that the term feminism is regarded as a pejorative these days (would have been unthinkable in my college days), I have to point out that they, or rather some of them, are part of the problem. That is all I was trying to address by bringing up the man-hating side of feminism. I believe it is precisely this side which chooses to pick on purely semantic issues as the above with Serena and thus burn the credibility of the movement when there are far more pressing problems yet to be addressed. They are more interested in somehow staying relevant rather than being committed to the movement.
Rahini: Thanks. It takes a brave soul to agree with someone who has just been labelled Mr Trump. 😛
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Anuja Chandramouli
October 17, 2016
Yay for KayKay!!!! Help! I can’t stop laughing!
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MANK
October 17, 2016
Brangan, i saw that you got yourself in to quite a bind there trying to differentiate between Films about stalkers\stalking and films that glorify stalking. I am as surprised as you are that films like AP,VA and Dil se are considered as glorifying stalking . I suppose the way people understand and differentiate these concepts are a lot subjective than one would imagine.Also there is the subjective interpretative nature of a blog discussion that makes reasoning beyond a point useless, unlike a face to face discussion. even then , i believe that people were trying to read between the lines and misinterpreting or misrepresenting your comments – like Engineer stalking a doctor being not stalking and so forth – when it was crystal clear that it was not what you were saying
Madan, i almost agree with you about the Serena williams situation.Its not about women playing men or any such stuff as many people are making it out here. Purely based on the skills as a tennis player, Serena is nowhere in the league of Steffi Graf, leave alone Federer. she certainly doesnt have the range and versatility of Steffi . Steffi in her prime could have been considered the greatest tennis player in the world even above here male colleagues . It is imperative that we celebrate the women for their achievements but not for the wrong ones. If someone was to say that Meryl Streep is the greatest american actor in the last 50 years irrespective of their gender, then i would wholeheartedly agree. if someone says the same about shabhana azmi in the indian context, i would agree with that too.Same with Lata Mangeshkar or P.Susheela when it comes to singing. but not with Serena williams being the greatest tennis player of all times , no way..
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Iswarya
October 17, 2016
Okay everyone: here’s a short video explaining the petition to the tl;dr generation. Please share it with all the people you know, along with the petition link which is now conveniently shortened to “bit.ly/nomorestalking”
Here is the video link:
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Madan
October 17, 2016
“Steffi in her prime could have been considered the greatest tennis player in the world even above here male colleagues . ” – There I don’t really agree. I mean, if a baseliner like Seles was happy to pull her wide on the AD and come in behind the serve, I don’t see Sampras or even Krajicek facing any real problems against her. It’s difficult to explain the difference between the two tours because TV does not really capture topspin. And topspin is the main difference why men can keep generating effortless power without missing much while the ladies make more errors (well, the aggressive ones and not thinking of the Wozniacki/Radwanska types). I can understand the power aspect of it but I have never understood exactly what impedes the female tennis players from mastering topspin. The only female tennis player who I thought was one heck of a topspin wizard (and who IIRC even Fed acknowledged as an influence/inspiration) was Martina Hingis. Unfortunately, she lacked the brute strength in a time when women’s tennis became more about raw power. The ladies are also impeded on serve more due to skill issues than strength. It doesn’t necessarily take a lot of strength to hit a fast serve (most people who have never played the game don’t realise how small a tennis court actually is) but because most women don’t play sports that involve throwing, they struggle with the ball toss. I should know since I was horrible at throwing in school days and that problem haunted and continues to haunt me when I took up tennis.
“It is imperative that we celebrate the women for their achievements but not for the wrong ones. If someone was to say that Meryl Streep is the greatest american actor in the last 50 years irrespective of their gender, then i would wholeheartedly agree. if someone says the same about shabhana azmi in the indian context, i would agree with that too.Same with Lata Mangeshkar or P.Susheela when it comes to singing. but not with Serena williams being the greatest tennis player of all times , no way..” – Yes, fully agree with this line of reasoning if not necessarily all of the examples (where it boils down to personal preferences rather than any objective gaps in skill in any case). I would like to see the best actress/best female playback singer awards done away with and merged with best actor/best singer. There used to be only a gender neutral playback singer award in the Filmfare awards once. I believe that today tastes have matured enough in India that actresses and female singers could win awards even in a combined field so why not! In sport, the separation is necessary to give them a level playing field, as counter-intuitive as this sounds. Hey, if some people still find this reasoning sexist, whatever floats your boat. I have already proposed the solution – let the women compete with the men in sports. It will not be pretty, though, and they get a much better platform to showcase their talents the way things are at present.
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Madan
October 17, 2016
I left out Justine Henin. For completeness sake, I should mention her as she had ace technique on both forehand and backhand and a pretty good serve for her (lack of) stature. This technique allowed her to punch well above her weight and win more slams than the much stronger Sharapova or Davenport. In fact, coaches have noted that Henin’s forehand style is very similar to the way the men hit it.
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sameoldnewbie
October 17, 2016
Madan – Tx for the links. Let’s break this down.
‘What man can match her?” – Um, Tendulkar for example?’
It is not the first time Guardian editors have forgotten Asian achievers (male and female equally) nor will it be the last. It has got nothing to do with feminism.
‘Just browsing through the net I found more evidence of this kind of sly imposing of ideological slants. This one from Huffington Post, ‘
Right. There will be individuals using hyperbole from all walks of life and ideologies and the world of feminism isn’t spared of it. But its the stereotyping that gets to me sometimes. You had brought up a couple stereotypical examples from the net; but you have met more than three ‘feminists’ here who disprove that stereotype (like Iswarya for instance). So all I ask is to get past prejudices and look at it from a non-prejudiced non-myopical non-antiquated view because it is a bit frustrating sometimes (I don’t know how to explain this further but how do you feel about a lot of westerners still thinking of India as the land of snake-charmers or whatever?).
‘on the other hand, her loss in 2001 to a 200th ranked male player indicates that she may not have been)’
To keep things in perspective, she was 16 at the time, playing against someone double her age.
“she should have taken up Johnny Mac on his invitation for a Battle of Sexes against him.”
And what exactly would these one-off exhibition matches prove? It is just entertainment; nothing more. Federer lost his first three games against Andre Agassi. Djoko lost his first four against Federer, 2 against Nadal (He has only won 3 times in his first 10 appearances against either of them). All I can infer from it is that it is impossible to speculate on a player’s talent and limit based on their first game against someone. Given enough time in the men’s league, who knows what Serena might achieve? There is a lot of scientific studies and research being done on the male vs female physicality thing, some with surprising results. I am not going to go into all of them but will leave a couple of links here
http://isreview.org/issue/72/are-men-really-better-athletes
http://time.com/money/4265912/equal-pay-tennis-djokovic-williams/
“No, I don’t agree, she is not one of the greatest athletes ever. “
Not sure if you heard this expression “Can he do it on a cold, wet Wednesday night in Stoke though?’ An English football commentator had a dig at Messi winning Balon d’Or in 2010 saying Messi can score at will in sunny warm La Liga in Spain, but that he would ‘struggle on a cold night at the Britannia Stadium’ which is the home of the English Premier League (EPL) team Stoke and is known to have some of the harshest winter conditions for play. It was kind of a pompous statement implying EPL is a tougher, more physical, more brutal league than La Liga and that flair players like Messi would suffer in the EPL (as if!). That expression is now firmly embedded in sports language in the UK; and is used in a jokey way to question the credentials of a successful team, and Britannia stadium has become a benchmark of sorts.
I guess it is only fair that people will have different benchmarks in sports depending on various things; and as per yours, Serena isn’t a great athlete (fine by me). But in my view, in a planet filled with 7.5 billion people, she deserves to be one of the best athletes right now (male, female, naikutty all included. Note: I am NOT saying she is the best or the only – I am only saying she deserves to be one of them).
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KayKay
October 17, 2016
Dear Uncouth Village Boy,
Am glad my post entertained you. Would love to say your lengthy riposte induced similar feelings of mirth in me, but alas! It did not. Don’t take it personally. All literal-minded, breathtakingly insular and binary-thinking viewpoints rarely tickle my funny bone.
I’ll put it down to the occupational hazard of casting pearls before swine (if my Tamil was worth a damn, I would have made references to donkeys and camphor) and move on.
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KayKay
October 17, 2016
“KayKay is considered the superstar commenter around here”
[Blushing furiously] dear MANK, thanks for that wonderful compliment, but honestly I’m just a smarmy asshole posting random shit who finds it far more fulfilling these days reading the measured and well reasoned arguments of Iswarya, Rahini and Anu and yourself especially in the movie threads. But people like Mr. Uncouth above simply represent an irresistible target with their literal-minded interpretations. Village Youth indeed 🙂
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Marauder
October 18, 2016
Madan : I think we may have to agree to disagree. I don’t think GOAT is a one man list. This is where our thinking differs I feel. If someone sayis Fed/Nad/Djo/Rod Laver/Sampras or Navaratilova/Serena/Steffi is that GOAT it will be arbitrary with some random deciding factor like stats, style,power.
What I feel is OK is saying Serena is one among GOAT’s in tennis, without any male/female attachment, so are Fed, Nad, Djo, Steffi. Anyway I think I should stop talking about tennis GOAT’s in this thread and stop contributing to the comment numbers.
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Snehal
October 18, 2016
Sorry, out of context but couldn’t resist posting.
Karan Johar mentioning BR around 43:00
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Madan
October 18, 2016
“It is not the first time Guardian editors have forgotten Asian achievers (male and female equally) nor will it be the last. It has got nothing to do with feminism.” – But he’s not the only one, though. Before him, Don Bradman too had played for two decades and his average merely and barely dipped below 100 when he was done. So the argument itself is false and has nothing to do with Asians. And that article is full of falsehoods, whether they be by design or accident.
“So all I ask is to get past prejudices and look at it from a non-prejudiced non-myopical non-antiquated view because it is a bit frustrating sometimes ” – And all I ask is for feminists to acknowledge the problem amongst those whom they may regard as like minded allies than to simply rail against those who have come to regard feminism as a bad word. I do not regard it as a bad word but I am also saying there is a reason why such a perception has taken hold. No liberal would have ever recoiled at the word feminist before but today there are those who do. Either you can acknowledge that the radical strain of feminism is costing it support and do something about it or you can bury your head in the sand.
“To keep things in perspective, she was 16 at the time, playing against someone double her age.” – True enough, but in ’99 she also beat the previous GOAT of WTA, Graf who was also nearly double her age at the time. And she has since then avoided such matches as she would not like to be embarrassed. Here’s Karsten Braach the player himself, “but when I saw Venus a few months later at the French Open she came up to me with a big smile on her face and said, ‘You know that thing in Australia – it never happened!'” By the way, men use more topspin today than they did back then, so the gap has only widened in that regard.
“And what exactly would these one-off exhibition matches prove? It is just entertainment; nothing more.” – But she wouldn’t even play an exhibition match with a player who was then 56 years old and last played a pro singles match in 1992. It’s a really long time. It may be difficult to arrive at an answer talking in generalities but I have observed her general serve speeds, the pace and spin of her groundies and her slices (or lack thereof) and I don’t see anything there that can challenge the top players of the ATP. So, no, 1-6 against Braach is not going to suddenly turn into 6-4 against Federer, not even if she plays him 10 times. What is regarded as one of the fastest serves for the women’s game is still only regarded as decent pace on the ATP. Berdych generally maxes out at 200 kph just like Serena and it is said that he is not able to leverage his height to serve as hard as he could because of technical issues. It’s not just about one or two players. I have watched Muster v/s Krajicek in CTL in the stadium followed by Pennetta v/s Cornet (both high ranked players, Pennetta had just then won the USO and retired). Pennetta and Cornet both served between 150-170 kph, like Muster, and a good deal slower than Krajicek’s 190-200 (and he was 43 and long retired). Whereas local lad Ramkumar Ramanathan was serving as fast as Krajicek is able to today (used to serve faster in the 90s when he was a pro). So I don’t see any strong evidence to suggest that the gap has closed significantly and if anything the advent of polyester strings have allowed men to refine topspin generation even more and pull further ahead of women.
Re the book, I would have to read the whole thing to come to any conclusions but just on the point of the marathon, at Rio, the men’s bronze medallist was still 15 minutes faster than the women’s gold medallist. 15 minutes is a lot of time; that means she wasn’t in the ballpark. So…leave men in the dust in endurance, really? It is good to know that in some races the average time of the top 200 female participants was faster than that of the men but they are still a long way away from even challenging them on peak performance. Whether it’s 100 m or marathon, it’s the same story. And as far as tennis, the trend since the late 90s has been for women to bulk up to improve their power (and get it somewhere in the ballpark of the men). But this comes at the cost of agility. Federer or Djokovic are still very wiry like tennis players have usually been and this helps them cover court quickly without expending too much energy. So in a long five setter, the two males would have more stamina than Serena or Venus simply because it’s easier for them to keep running around.
“Not sure if you heard this expression “Can he do it on a cold, wet Wednesday night in Stoke though?” – But this is not about one stadium. It is about observed differences in the performance level of the players across all conditions. Only in last year’s Wimbledon, Fed came up with a serve that absolutely jammed Murray and forced a very weak return from him; I have never seen the women even attempt those angles on the serve. And remember, we are talking about Murray who was consistently returning 147 mph bombs from Raonic in this year’s final. Even Serena only tries to ace her opponents with sheer pace rather than wicked angles. The old adage in tennis is that you are only as good as your second serve and the men’s second serve today is a monstrous kicker that denies the returner the chance to step in and pound it. Very few women use the kicker and Serena doesn’t use it very much if at all. And the serve is the one shot where she comes closest to the level of the men. The gap is greater once we get to the groundstrokes.
“I guess it is only fair that people will have different benchmarks in sports depending on various things” – Fair as long as it is respected that I and others with this opinion may have valid reasons for our benchmarks instead of trying to launch a character assault on us.
“and as per yours, Serena isn’t a great athlete” – No, I did not say that. I said she is not one of the greatest. There is a difference and I will come to it.
“But in my view, in a planet filled with 7.5 billion people, she deserves to be one of the best athletes right now” – I agree with this but this is also different in connotation from “one of the greatest athletes of all time”. One of the greatest athletes of all time means Ali, Jordan, Federer, Bolt etc. To get into that category, she would have to be one of a kind in all tennis, not just women’s tennis. Now don’t say Ali shouldn’t be there because from that standpoint, calling a tennis player a great athlete is also very dubious and we should then restrict ourselves only to champions of track & field. Serena was addressed as “one of the greatest female athletes of all time” and she snapped that she would prefer to be addressed as one of the greatest athletes of all time. That seems to suggest the Federer, Bolt category and not just one of the most elite athletes from our heavily populated planet.
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Anu Warrier
October 18, 2016
Anu, your comments as always are so beautifully written.
…Even when if i dont agree with you on everything you say – and there has been so many in the past-, i am totally mesmerized by how you say them and never more so in this thread.
[Joining KayKay in blushing furiously] Thank you. Disagreements are fine; being disagreeable is not. No?
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shaviswa
October 18, 2016
Phew!! Another few comments and you are well set to score a triple hundred.
Is this a record on this blog?
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Akhilan
October 18, 2016
@Madan: IMO, the GOAT debate is and will always remain an exercise in futility… I don’t think one can ever compare athletes across different eras, sports, or gender for that matter… For instance, how can you compare a generation that played with wooden rackets, with one that plays with luxilon strings; allowing today’s players to generate the kind of topspin and power that they do… Not only in terms of racket technology, but just think about the overall evolution of the game, like it is with life itself… Everything advances, technology improves, so why compare…?? Can’t we enjoy all the incredible athletes who have graced the game with their inherently unique characteristics, personality traits, and playing styles…?? Can’t we just appreciate how far things have come…?? Serena without a doubt belongs to the GOAT list, as does a Federer, Evert, Graff, Nadal, Djokovic, Laver, Borg and all the other legends of the game… But for me, there can never be a GOAT; be that for a particular sport, across sports, or in any other field… Sure, we are all entitled to have our personal favorites, but it’s not about asking women to compete with the men in order to see who comes out on top… That’s so not the point (and frankly ridiculous…) It’s about appreciating these gifted people for what they do, for what they’ve accomplished, and for what values they represent… This is far more pertinent in my eyes than having the rather unhealthy obsession of trying to figure out who the GOAT is…
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Rahini David
October 18, 2016
Uncouth Village Youth:
I agree that you have the right to decide which stalking is appropriate and which is not, or even whether it is stalking or not. 🙂 Just that, don’t expect that the law will be in line with your opinion.
Good. Do you actually believe that the law is in line with YOUR opinion? That men who go and talk to women in sub-urban trains should be arrested even if the woman in question is responding to his advances?
women are never capable of picking, they just stand on sub urban trains waiting to be picked
Ah. There you are. I can see why women you meet want to keep you at a good safe distance.
For her talking care of her child is important, for me Mankatha is important.
If a pretty fresher girl had said “For you your father’s chemotherapy is important and for me my date in Fisherman’s Cove is important” she would have been a bitch, no? Anyway I hope you liked Mankatha. Also I do hope you become the fair manager very soon.
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Rahini David
October 18, 2016
KayKay is back and so is MANK. Let us celebrate.
I agree about V1000. It is not REAL. But it was unreal in an inoffensive way.
Awesome clear video, Iswarya.
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Sumaar Moonji Rajkumaru
October 18, 2016
Of all the stalker movies spoken about here in the comments section, Alaipayudhe is the one that resembles the Swati incident the closest. #localtrain
This Mani Ratnam fellow should stop making movies. Pseudo Forward Thinking Regressive Creep
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Rahini David
October 18, 2016
Is this a record on this blog? Nope.
Illayaraja still stands tall. 🙂
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brangan
October 18, 2016
Snehal: What a surprise. Someone told me about this, but did not know it was out on YouTube. Thank you so much 🙂
MANK: My reservations are only with a particular kind of aimless stalking, which is a means to an end (and even there, in the most lazy fashion). And as I mentioned above, this stalking is usually served with a side of misogyny. It’s the combination of these two things that makes me uneasy.
I have no issues with stalking being depicted in the context of a story that plays out. I mentioned Sethu and Raanjhanaa earlier. Let me add NEPV to the list. Going after someone you had a relationship with and broke up with is all part and parcel of how romantic feelings get resolved in real life. We’ve all been there, in some manner. But this is an INTERLUDE in the story. It’s not the WHOLE story, as in films like Remo.
Everyone has their idea of what’s acceptable, what’s not. This is mine.
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Uncouth Village Youth
October 18, 2016
Rahini : Did you miss the the underlying tone in my post ? Or do you think, women are not capable of picking a guy and perform the ‘ribbing and mockery tinged with good humor, not spite fanned with insecurity’ mating ritual ?. I merely pointed out the shallowness of his assertion that men always do the picking. As a woman, don’t you think it is absolutely misogynistic to state so – am really surprised.
I’m an equal opportunity offender 😛 I absolutely never ask for reasons, however, I make it clear, that they do their due diligence, before coming to me. Once they approach me for any leave/permission, as long as they are in line with company policy, they know that it will always be approved.I expect them, as adults to weigh the pros and cons while being aware of the impact to the company, project and their careers. As I mentioned earlier, time in office is auto calculated by the system and the ratings/metrics are populated, for which I’m immensely thankful. It saves me from wading through the moral dilemmas and people who ask me to take decisions on their behalf.
@BR : Agree, some movies are entirely devoted to stalking. But, what are we trying to achieve through this campaign – what exactly is the end game ? Is it a total ban on stalkerish behavior on screen ? A disclaimer at the beginning and end of the movie, or a marquee on screen every time someone stalks ? Who decides on what is stalking on screen and what is not – the censor board or the panel which decides on tax exemption 😛 Then , we will have the same accusations as of now – X’s movie was let off, while mine was caught. I’m not comfortable with a total ban, since far worse stuff is shown on screen. I’m also not comfortable with endless marquees scrolling through the screen every time, a criminal act is shown.
My take will be for a strong disclaimer in the beginning of the movie, with sufficient screen time, so that people actually read it. We can also look into rating the movie and enforcing them strictly at the turnstiles.I don’t have any real solutions on the menace of stalking too. Guess there will always be some morons, who do that – if somebody has an idea about, what the current law is missing apart from the enforcement, I would be happy to hear.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
October 18, 2016
Rahini : “Illayaraja still stands tall” LOL🙂
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
October 18, 2016
Snehal : Many Thanks for the link ! I’m not a fan of KJ’s films but I liked the way he stated his reaction to movie reviews and BR in particular
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Rahini David
October 18, 2016
Did you miss the the underlying tone in my post ?
No sir, I did not. 🙂
I’m not comfortable with a total ban
What total ban are we talking about here or did I miss your ‘tone’ again?
You walk up to her and say, suggestively that you don’t look beautiful, blah blah , in what is effectively a cheesy pick up line. In one swoop, you have reduced an accomplished aspiring woman, to a ‘beautiful’ woman. Because, nothing else matters, nothing does.
That was hilarious. 😀
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
October 18, 2016
Does ‘sight adichifying’ necessarily fall under the ambit of ‘stalking’?
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Iswarya
October 18, 2016
And that’s the way a non-argument fizzles out, right? Severe strawmanning, talking without a context, going down the much-beaten path, attempting to reopen resolved issues and then wrapping up with words of wisdom as if this has never occurred to anyone else or never been said here before. And to making it all cool and edgy, add a few tongue-sticking-out smileys. Bravo!
Okay, I enjoyed watching the game play out. Thanks.
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MANK
October 18, 2016
KJO is much smarter than his films lead us to believe :). It was really nice of him to mention Brangan and loved his overall take on film criticism. I wish more filmmakers would have that attitude .
what exactly is the end game ? Is it a total ban on stalkerish behavior on screen ? A disclaimer at the beginning and end of the movie, or a marquee on screen every time someone stalks ? Who decides on what is stalking on screen and what is not
UVY, i think the campaign \ petition is very clear that its not for bans or blanket censorship. its a request to the filmmakers – who in this case could be the best judges on what and why they put these misogynistic\stalker elements in to their pictures – to voluntarily refrain from glorifying these aspects in their films which more or less happens purely for commercial reasons.
Sivakarthikeyan or Dhanush may publicly come with a 100 justifications about why their characters are behaving the way they do in films, how it is just an expression of love and not stalking, etc,etc but privately, i believe that they are intelligent enough to understand the damage they are doing.Its just another form of pandering to the youth audience’s baser instincts to achieve instant success.It is just that attitude that we expect them to renounce.
Along with that , the campaign hopes to get the support of the movie watching public to stop encouraging the films that do so. As in any other demand and supply market – and cinema being purely a commercial enterprise for the majority of producers and financiers -, once the demand for the product goes down its natural that the suppliers wont be foolish enough to keep peddling the same wares. they will have to change the nature of the product
There are always gray areas – no doubt about it – as there are in every social issue depicted in a subjective art form like cinema. But at least in areas where there is real clarity or objectivity – and there is definitely in this case – relative to this subject, it would be expected of the artists and the audience to support this endevour.
This is the only way we could have a reasonable solution to this problem. There is a limit to what the law can do and enforce . And censorship is definitely not the solution, leave alone the scrolls that appear randomly on screen -which is ridiculous to say the least-.Just that the artists show a reasonable amount of social responsibility.
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MANK
October 18, 2016
My reservations are only with a particular kind of aimless stalking, which is a means to an end (and even there, in the most lazy fashion).
Brangan, To add to that, a sense of ultimate heroism attached with that attitude, where a guy with nothing chases and conquers a girl who has (seems to have) everything, some kind of allegorical victory of the poor \ downtrodden\ oppressed over the oppressor. A utopia presented to the hardcore fans – who more or less belong to that particular social strata – by their star to get off. its really pornography masquerading as social justice
I have no issues with stalking being depicted in the context of a story that plays out
That’s true. But i do believe that there are instances where the filmmaker (and even celebrated filmmakers) irresponsibly manipulates the audience to fall in line with the stalker, something i am not very comfortable with.. Take Darr for eg. or rather take Sivappu Rojakkal and Darr.. Both films are about Psychotic stalkers who not only stalks but kills as well. But SR is an unsentimental cold film which doesnt show any sympathy for its disgusting protagonist. Its really unsparing both in Bharatiraja’s making – a gritty, lurid , fractured narrative – and Kamal’s performance -nuanced, creepy, reptilian – , what a monster this guy is. On the other hand Darr portrays him as some kind of a romantic martyr. The over all feel of the film is of some kind of a romantic epic. So is SRK’s exaggerated performance which comes across as more fun and mischief rather than creepy. The audience by the end of the film is manipulated in to empathizing and even rooting for SRK. The success of his character in Darr along with the Baazighar – another film with questionable moral center – made SRK in to a superstar. i wonder what your take on this subject is?.
I see a lot of criticism against Kamal for being misogynistic and all that and may be it was a true early in his career. His early megahits like sakalakalavallavan is the ultimate misogynist crap . but hell you must admire his guts for doing a film like SR . Again in his post Nayagan phase , when he took full control of his career and started producing his own films,he not only refrained from creating misogynistic characters but created some of the most well written multi dimensional women characters in tamil films
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Madan
October 18, 2016
“but it’s not about asking women to compete with the men in order to see who comes out on top… That’s so not the point (and frankly ridiculous…) ” – It is not any more ridiculous than the notion that addressing Serena as the greatest female tennis player/one of the greatest female athletes ever is disrespectful. Disrespectful. Let’s pause for a second and consider the implications of that: calling someone greatest became disrespectful? Can you imagine Federer or Nadal demanding that reporters address them as greatest? No, they don’t. No player would do that, because compliments are bestowed, they are not grabbed from somebody’s mouth. I really don’t know what’s come over Serena that she is suddenly not satisfied with the one of the greatest female styling.
“It’s about appreciating these gifted people for what they do, for what they’ve accomplished,” – Again, how does it not appreciate Serena’s immense talent to say that she is the greatest female tennis player?
Put another away, if somebody casually included Serena as one of the greatest tennis players, I am not going to raise any objections. If somebody tells me that no it is sexist to call her greatest female tennis player and you MUST call her greatest tennis player ever, I am not going to do that; I don’t like somebody trying to tell me what to think and even more so if that somebody is so inclined to taint me in the process. I can come up with umpteen arguments as to why she is not the greatest as I have and I will if it is put to me in that way. This whole campaign has a feeling of trying to impose vocabulary on people. Good for you that it doesn’t put you off but it certainly did put me off and I find it even more ludicrous that Serena herself has jumped into the fray. There are ways to go about gender equality and this is frankly one of the worst ways to go about it.
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Madan
October 18, 2016
MANK: Well summed up. It is bizarre to see that every time the question comes up as to why the campaign is asking for censorship when it is not. I should give benefit of doubt and presume that they did not know about the campaign but I wonder whether the assault on cine-stalking just makes some people defensive.
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Akhilan
October 18, 2016
@Madan: I don’t think you understood my previous post very well… What I’m trying to say is, for me, there can never be a GOAT in the first place… Not in men’s tennis, in women’s tennis, in tennis, in any other sport, across sports, or in any other field… I find it a pointless and redundant debate….
So, in a way, I’m agreeing with you here… Serena is not THE greatest female tennis player of all time/THE greatest female athlete of all time/THE greatest athlete of all time, simply because I find it impossible to compare different eras/sports/gender… And in this case, the same would apply for if I replaced Serena’s name with that of a Federer, Borg, Graff, Evert, MJ, Nicklaus, CR7, or any of the other sporting legends in history…
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Iswarya
October 18, 2016
MANK/Madan: Thank you. Seriously.
I’d become this totally exhausted, peevish woman at seeing the constant propping up of straw men and tilting at the windmills. That’s the reason for my sounding uncharacteristically churlish earlier here. I’m glad you both stepped in and put an end to it.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
October 19, 2016
But SR is an unsentimental cold film which doesnt show any sympathy for its disgusting protagonist. Its really unsparing both in Bharatiraja’s making …
MANK: Not really. Kamal’s character pays for his crimes, but Sridevi’s is firm on her ‘faith’ in the almighty (to reform him). The film does end on a sentimental note and shows some sympathy for the character. The same is the case with PP’s character in Moodupani. When our filmmakers Indianised certain films from the west, whitewashed those characters because the concept of anti-hero was perhaps new to mainstream cinema then?
I don’t understand why Guna is given a free pass especially when it’s viewed under the purview of ‘glorification of stalking’. The initially reluctant heroine falls for Kamal, and the film reminds us every now and then that the protagonist’s love is ‘pure’ and ‘eternal’.
I see a lot of criticism against Kamal for being misogynistic and all that and may be it was a true early in his career … Again in his post Nayagan phase , when he took full control of his career and started producing his own films
He did Singaravelan and Maharasan (both in the early 90s). But yes, with the exception of SKK, none of his films are of the ‘taming the arrogant bitch’/’putting women in their place/good women vs bad women’ kind. In Rajini’s case, I can think of Thambikku Endha Ooru, Maappillai, Mannan and Padayappa. But then, none of his films in the post-Padayappa phase belong to the aforementioned templates. During his stint in Bollywood, he did quite a few women-centric films in the late 80s/early 90s – at the peak of his stardom. Gair Kanooni, Bhrashtachar, Phool Bane Angaray and Chaalbaaz, to name a few.
Misogyny is an indispensable part of ‘being the macho’ in almost every star’s films. I guess there are no exceptions.
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Madan
October 19, 2016
@ Akhilan: Oh, I agree completely in that case. There is no one GOAT in tennis (or any sport, for that matter). There is a good argument for ranking Sobers over Bradman for instance.
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Rahini David
October 19, 2016
Misogyny is an indispensable part of ‘being the macho’ in almost every star’s films. I guess there are no exceptions.
It can be if the audience are more discerning. I don’t watch English or other Foreign movies but I don’t think ALL macho stars will have to ride the horse of misogyny. And instead of blaming “B” center and “C” center audience all the time, the “A” center audience should be vocal about the changing scene and what pleases them and what does not. As more filmmakers grow having heard of these arguments, the more we can hope for change.
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tonks
October 19, 2016
But, what are we trying to achieve through this campaign – what exactly is the end game ? Is it a total ban on stalkerish behavior on screen ? A disclaimer at the beginning and end of the movie, or a marquee on screen every time someone stalks ? Who decides on what is stalking on screen and what is not – the censor board or the panel which decides on tax exemption Then , we will have the same accusations as of now – X’s movie was let off, while mine was caught. I’m not comfortable with a total ban, since far worse stuff is shown on screen. I’m also not comfortable with endless marquees scrolling through the screen every time, a criminal act is shown
There is a link to clarifications/FAQs that addresses doubts regarding the petition in the petition itself.
https://www.change.org/p/tamil-filmmakers-and-actors-stop-glorification-of-stalking-in-tamil-films
I’ve copy pasted the questions here :
Valid questions about the petition, and its intentions and scope as FAQ’s:
Are you saying that movies are the cause of Swathi’s death?
No. Cause-and-effect relations are complex and hard to establish, but it is an undeniable fact that movies are a potent influence in validating what kinds of behaviour are acceptable and which are not within any society. Further, scientific studies have established that media exposure can cause children and young adults to internalise the subconscious messages they see on the screen, accepting such values and depictions as “real.”
Are you against cinema?
No, we care deeply for the most pervasive entertainment option available to us here in Tamilnadu and want it to be the best it can be.
Are you blaming cinema as the primary reason for crimes that happen around us?
Not at all. There are multiple and complex reasons for the occurrences of crimes around us and we will not make cinema a scapegoat. However, considering the level of influence that movies can have on the public, we believe that filmmakers should voluntarily take efforts not to glamorise or glorify criminal behaviour.
Are you against freedom of expression or in favour of censorship?
No. A big NO. We believe that art has always pushed boundaries and should continue to do so without fear of either draconian regulations or extrajudicial fringe groups. However, when it comes to cinema that gets a ‘U’ certification, we want filmmakers to be fully aware that their work is being authorised to be exhibited before audiences of all ages. Bearing this in mind, we want filmmakers to refrain from reinforcing subliminal messages that serious crimes such as street sexual harassment (eve-teasing) or stalking are actually just harmless fun.
Don’t other crimes such as murder, rape, smuggling, etc. matter? Should they also not be shown in films?
Of course, other crimes are serious too. However, the cultural conditioning in our families as well as the codes of civics included in our education teaches children that these are crimes. Social taboos ingrained from childhood against killing, rape, etc. give us enough perspective to see onscreen depictions of such actions as aberrations. However, stalking was not recognised as a crime in the Indian law until the Criminal Law Amendment of 2013, following reactions to the Nirbhaya case. I.P.C. 354D being a new legislation, many people are not even aware that stalking, by itself, (sans any other physical harm done to a woman, such as acid attack) is an offence that can attract a jail term. Further, it is difficult to justify acts such as murder or rape in a movie and the character committing the crime is generally not let off without any penalties or consequences. However, stalking is regularly portrayed as acceptable behaviour that will eventually be rewarded rather than as a punishable crime.
Do you want disclaimers to be put in whenever a character on screen commits any crime (like the present smoking/liquor warnings)?
No. We believe that such warnings are distracting and largely useless since they are not organic to the film. If a film does not inherently make smoking or drinking unappealing, a mere disclaimer that is added as an afterthought will hardly have any effect.
Should movies never be made about a character who is a stalker?
No. Movies ought to be made about all kinds of characters. However, we ask filmmakers to refrain from (a) glorifying stalking as the way to win a woman’s love, and (b) inserting such insidious messages into movies that are meant to be consumed by audiences of all ages. In the case of films that are certified ‘A,’ we do not call for any restriction. However, promoting or normalising stalking in movies that target impressionable young adults has to stop.
If your intention is mainly to protect children and young adults, shouldn’t this petition be directed at CBFC asking for films that glorify stalking behaviour to be certified ‘A’?
That would definitely be the logical next step of our #CallingOutStalking campaign. However, we believe that the filmmakers themselves would be willing to make reforms if sufficient public support is gathered for our campaign at this stage.
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tonks
October 19, 2016
As more filmmakers grow having heard of these arguments, the more we can hope for change
I’ve often thought that this might be the reason that the so called new-gen Malayalam (and perhaps Hindi) movies have much less misogyny.
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brangan
October 19, 2016
I’m beginning to suspect some level of trolling is going on here. Or are we seriously unable to distinguish between stalking shown wrt mentally / psychotically disturbed characters and stalking valourised as heroism?
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MANK
October 19, 2016
It is bizarre to see that every time the question comes up as to why the campaign is asking for censorship when it is not.*
Madan, For one, its the usual routine of how things are done in our country. every time a contentious subject comes up in public domain, the immediate instinct is to call for Bans,bandhs,hartals or censorship.you see what’s happening with KJo’s Ae dil hai mushkil. there is hardly any attempt for constructive dialogue or introspection involved. when somebody raise an issue like this , the impression it gives is that the person is demanding a ban or censorship. the culture of a healthy debate, self regulation or self censorship does not exist in our country.
I wonder whether the assault on cine-stalking just makes some people defensive
That’s there too i guess.in our indian film context stalking is always a substitute for romantic pursuit especially from the male POV
Iswarya, my pleasure. i can understand how you must be feeling -being forced to explain yourself again and again.
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MANK
October 19, 2016
but Sridevi’s is firm on her ‘faith’ in the almighty (to reform him).
But here the director is not making us root for Kamal in any way. Its ends more on a note of ambiguity
*I don’t understand why Guna is given a free pass especially when it’s viewed under the purview of ‘glorification of stalking’. *
But Guna is a mentally retarded character no?. His character quirks are heavily detailed and explained throughout the film .so are the circumstances in which the heroine comes to like him
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Rahini David
October 19, 2016
BR: Trolling was going on as of yesterday. But not with the Guna question. In Guna, there was no valorization but the cuteness made it rootable. So rootable that I questioned myself if I am missing something by liking it so much. We are called to sympathize with Guna. So Honest Raj’s question is quite understandable. Guna is not glorification of stalking but makes it freakishly understandable.
So what if another movie comes up with Guna-like detailing again? We slap an ‘A’ certificate on it and discuss about the nuances again. Surely that is the case with many things other than stalking too. Think of it as similar to child abuse or domestic violence or serial killing or whatever. If the certificate is ‘A’, let the filmmaker go ahead, no?
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Gaah
October 19, 2016
BR: It’s not trolling – it is deliberate obtuseness arising from entitlement – some people don’t want to see stalking as a problem. It is also really easy to call it elitism, casteism and what not, to shut down any calling out of stalking. Poor Iswarya and Anu and many other women have explained over and over how threatening it is to be stalked by any person of any strata of society. There must be a reason why many commenters are still going on and on abt “what about Madhavan?” I don’t think the reason is benign – I think it is malicious. People would do well to remember that women are also a victimised community – not just lower castes, lower economic strata. Somehow empathy seems super lacking for this group – maybe we can go around calling it male elitism. Anytime anyone brings up elitism in stalking, a bunch of us can bring up male elitism and muddy further all these super muddied waters.
In the end, only one group has been super sincere in putting forth their points and dare I say, far too reasonable. Maybe some deliberately obtuse, manipulative arguments are in order – to be put forth by the anti-stalking side. It’s not like UVY is taking any of these constructive arguments seriously or is not being dismissive and at 200 + comments, it’s time to give up and talk in the same language – maybe it will be understood better. Probably not, though.
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MANK
October 19, 2016
Misogyny is an indispensable part of ‘being the macho’ in almost every star’s films. I guess there are no exceptions.
There are exceptions in the case of hollywood stars i guess. like Arnold or Stallone films which does not feature women at all – like Rambo films,commando,Predator,…etc. even in a film like Terminator 2 , Arnold doesnt comes across any less macho just because he shares screen space with a strong female character . the most recent instance i can think of is Mad max fury road where charlize theron was as much a strong presence as Tom Hardy.
Tonks,That’s true. along with that, there was a generational shift in people making and watching these films. The earlier generation of patriarchal bend filmmakers and audience were replaced by a new generation of more independent and educated breed, influenced by cinema from the west.An increased presence of women in the creative side of filmmaking might also be a reason for it.
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Shiva
October 19, 2016
I can see there is so much of rage against stalking. I completely agree. So let’s say the director takes a movie of a guy who studies hard becomes successful in his career and contributes to the development of this country. Do you believe this country or the countrymen going to change ?
Then what about movies like Indian, Anniyan, Gentlemen. Unless people change their attitude we can never witness a real change in the society.
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MIsha
October 19, 2016
I have been following this thread and all the comments here.
@BR, I agree. Seems like there is an “argument for arguments sake” trend here. Picking on certain movies/heroes/scenes and then arguing at length about it.
When none of that matters.
Art cannot be (should not be) censored. It needs to explore, push boundaries etc.
Movie making is art but also a business. No one is running a charity PSA here. Some art films, documentaries and artistic vision/integrity aside, most WILL try to maximize this monetary potential within the boundaries of law (no pornography etc.)
Media (Movies) does influence the public conscious. Its a scientifically proven fact. So, it is believable that movies play a part in propagating/encouraging/cultivating certain mindset/behaviors.
With that in mind, an affected group/community CAN petition the movie industry (actors, directors, producers etc.) to be sensitive to their issues. Highlighting contemporary scenarios (movies in screens now) is part of this process. Isn’t that how it works ? What is so wrong here ? Why even bring the – but he used to do it, they did it there – arguments here ?
Stalking is a VERY prevalant issue. I know numerous female friends from school (read underage) and college and work that were terrified due to random strangers following them or waiting for them and then progressively getting threatening and violent when not given the expected attention/reaction. A lot of them moved their schedules, dropped tuition or special classes etc. just out of this fear (that was the reaction from most parents !!!!).
Do we really believe this has NOTHING to do with the movies and behaviors shown there ? OR that if a few of these “worshiped” heroes stop making such movies or even better speak against this behavior some of it will NOT drop ?
Isn’t that worth it ?
We all can agree that these kind of movies are not really depriving the ART anyway.
Stalking is an issue and we should support the efforts to raise awareness within the movie industry to be sensitive towards this (at the least) and maybe even help the cause (best case).
What is so confusing or hard about this ?
And lets start with the here and now and not dwell in the past (Kamal, VTV etc.)
Tomorrow, if Arvind Swamy (I am picking the fairest actor I knew 🙂 playing an upper caste, millionaire industrialist made a movie glorifying or normalizing stalking, I am sure the ladies will have a problem with that as well.
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Anu Warrier
October 19, 2016
MANK, I don’t think it’s just the influence of the West, as far as Malayalam cinema is concerned. Our cinema had very strong progressive stories and characters in the 50s and 50s. The misogyny started – really started and seemed normalised – with the rise of the Ms, and without meaning any disrespect, specifically Mohanlal’s films. (Not that Mammootty was exempt from this, but they seemed fewer in number – correct me if I’m wrong.) For some reason, I remember thinking, after watching a series of Mohanlal films that, whatever he did, the female character always ended up being a) slapped by him or b) having to apologise to him, or both.
This was a template that was closely emulated by Jayaram and Dileep as well, not to mention a host of smaller ‘stars’.
The one other ‘family entertainer’ whose films had good stories but where the female characters always had to bow down to the superiority of the male was Balachandra Menon’s. Gah! He made me want to slap the smirk off his face.
I also think the change happened because Malayalam films had begun to follow the 80s Hindi film template in the 90s. We stopped giving stories pride of place; star power drew the crowds to the cinema. (See rise of Ms.) When people got tired of the same BS, they began voting with their wallets, and the Ms began to see their films fail at the box-office. Cinema is essentially commerce, and the makers began to pay heed. Which is what Tamil cinema needs as well, I guess. People refusing to watch films such as these.
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maha
October 19, 2016
//I’m beginning to suspect some level of trolling is going on here. Or are we seriously unable to distinguish between stalking shown wrt mentally / psychotically disturbed characters and stalking valourised as heroism?//
Sigappu Rojakkal.. Guna hehehe
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Amit Joki
October 20, 2016
A clarification:
I don’t and won’t show an iota of support for Remo.
First of all, for all that’s holy, Kadhal Konden, Devathayai Kanden, Padikkadhavan, Raanjhanaa are the films Dhanush is guilty of having acted in.
Raanjhanaa is exempted for reason BR states.
Devathayai Kanden, Kadhal Konden has very much the plot for the stalking, in the sense “getting her by any means”, which isn’t to say that I am justifying it. Both films couldn’t have gone either way too as in Raanjhanaa.
So Padikkadhavan remains whose limit was what I stated. I Didn’t justify its content for the hecks sake.
As for the statement made in defense for importuning love by showing the purity or whatever, stands.
He has done it in Aadukalam too, the slitting thing. The heroine doesn’t hug or console him or anything that Zoya does. She looks on. She doesn’t fall for him even if he shows his “pure” love.
And with regards to marriage being the culmination, I now realise that not everyone looks beyond the movie. For most of them they are winning the girl.
But again, Padikkadhavan is such one off film. I very well agree.
As for the daughter-sister question, what would sense my agony that I spent these many days recollecting where this scene played out in Raanjhanaa and to find it in Remo, of which I had spoke no word at all, makes me cringe and coming from whom?
Making a point is okay. But make it so that it is relevant for whom you are making it. Or else the point would remain irrelevant.
As for my narrow minded views, I spent a heck of a day convincing my friends that Radhika Apte isn’t a slut for having acted in Parched. I was relentless till they acknowledged that what she did was what very few artists have the finesse and courage to do. That she is the finest talent.
When my friends secretly sneaked into Trisha Illana Nayantara, they came out with a view that they would go out to any extent to find a virgin girl for them. I haven’t still been able to fully make them understand that that is extremely narrow to think of it that way and that past relations should never come in way and they should have no qualms if the girl of choice isn’t virgin. That never should be the parameter.
They looked down upon me for that.
Heck I don’t even judge Sunny Leone. I would not call her names. She is doing her profession.
I explained that a woman can be a “kudumba kuthuvilakku” if she doesn’t do the dishes or cook, or if she earns. Earning isn’t really a men domain and household isn’t exactly a woman’s domain. It is a maid’s. This much I have reasoned out well. That use of quotes is to signify that their general perception was quite opposite and quite regressive.
And yet, yes I am a narrow minded person just because someone simply sensationalized what I meant with a SENSE of her being mine and my being her, just to the point of ownership when your wife introduces her husband as EN purushan. But I was made to look like as if I meant she’s a property to be bought, forever locked in Hitlers concentration camps enslaving her throughout her life, is another matter.
Thank you very much. Times of India must really be watching this space out.
As for marriage, I think it of as a social construct. And my imagination is quite good enough to not think of a happy live in relationship. But I meander beyond what’s apparent and think of what would happen if they have consensual sex and be blessed with a baby. What society would percieve, what effects it would have on the baby when it would hear that their parents aren’t actually married but lead a very wholly radical life, what would go through the baby when it hears, “oru appanukku porunthurunthundha” shit.
I very well had a daughter-sister question along the same line as a retort but I know better than to ask it.
Marriage is something which defines the couple for themselves and for the society. Why else then do we need witnesses to these events? It is all well if you can stay happily ignoring mind numbing judgements that gets passed on you , but if you care for what society thinks of you, your life will be pretty much crippled.
Oh! Just found this gem,
At the end, they two realize that they cannot be only in love forever and decide to get married.
Guess from where? From the Wiki Page of OK Kanmani directed by the so revered one in here, the man himself, amidst applause, Mr. Mani Ratnam! Talk about legal stamp now!
Being radical is one thing, to spout non sense just so as to make a point is quite another.
As for calling someone’s point of view uninformed is pretty immature for you is not he. You and he differs by a plethora of factors.
This is why I didn’t judge the man who said Kareena kissing Arjun was wrong in Ki and Ka thread and took the professional way of explaining the matter out. It is the surrounding he’s been in or has been brought up in and has to be considered and respected to make a collective decision. Altman makes an excellent point on this front.
As for someone who took back something which he must have thought he had given me, you would be surprised to know that I pretty much knew what was gonna be said when I said, “hope I don’t sound immature”. It was like baiting for the fish I already had.
I also knew if I were to put the same in here, I would get a contrasting answer. But then I never did expect more.
As for echo chambers, it is no doubt, that everyone here would agree that the diaspora in here is extremely limited. The views are polarised to a positive side. The negative and the general side that predominantly exists in the society hardly comes in here to take part in the discussions. In such a case if alternate views are respected and discussed upon than judging them would be good for the blog and will save it
from becoming an echo chamber.
Lastly this comment covers and represents what my previous comments stood for.
Rahini: Please find my comment above. What I find irksome is, Dhanush is invariably called whenever stalking is the issue, when clearly Padikkadhavan which was a problematic one released long back and he has given many movies later which hadn’t had woman as some trophy to be possessed.
In 3, the pursuit was stopped when she asks him not to follow. Her words were respected.
So what’s with calling him every time? Even by BRs own definition, Dhanush has hardly acted in 4 aforementioned movies which is stalkerish. But then words are thrown preposteroulsy as in Dhanush being the poster boy of stalkers. That’s where the problem lies.
I catch every movie I can on TV. In fact I have been to Dhanush films in theatres only 3 times. I can’t afford to view videos in YouTube.
Jio sim vaangra kastam enaku than theriyum but innum kadekila. All the Amateurs’ arts are in my watch later list. Text is relatively smaller which is why I can afford to type in here. Naa potrukirthu 2G, ithula video paatha govinda than. To be honest I haven’t myself watched my short film fully on youtube.
I already feel small when I see comments in their comments section and I would definitely feel smaller when I do watch them in a positive way. That also explains why I haven’t commented in there because to not know what I am talking is the least I can guard myself from.
But even still, I caught up with Qissa, Barefoot to Goa(BR: I found the ending to be odd, conscious, what’s say?), Aligarh, Pulp Fiction, Apoorva Saghodharargal. I have seen NEPV and absolutely loved it to the core when none of my friends did.
Pakakudaathuno ila Pudikaadhuno ila Dhanush padam than paapenum illa Mudiaruthilla avlodhan.
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ToHellWithIt
October 20, 2016
“I explained that a woman can be a “kudumba kuthuvilakku” if she doesn’t do the dishes or cook, or if she earns. Earning isn’t really a men domain and household isn’t exactly a woman’s domain. It is a maid’s. ”
Cotton pikcing is a black person job – not saying all black people should do it. I’m not racist, I have many black friends, ok? And for the heck’s sake, have the sense to understand but not misunderstand to an extent, so that I can Dhanush is not guilty in any way, shape or form and for holy’s sake, you all suck.
“Heck I don’t even judge Sunny Leone. I would not call her names. She is doing her profession.”
Aap mahaan ho. Truly. Probably in Madurai, from whatever has been said in this thread.
Maybe all women should gtfo of TN. It seems a lost cause.
See, all this time we’ve been giving this guy the benefit of doubt, patiently explaining, putting the best spin on all that’s been said (maybe language issues, young guy from small town etc.) Since many commenters love to deliberatley misunderstand what the women are saying, here’s me doing the same.
UVY: Here’s some shit for you:
If a guy that looks like Madhavan comes up and talks to me in a railway station (where he happened to see me the previous day, while taking a train himself), yeah I’d welcome it. I met him at a wedding, we bantered and I spent all night thinking of him. If a jobless unemployed Dhanush (bite me, Amit Joki) who I’ve never met earlier and has creepily followed me from my home to the railway station comes up and says the same shit, I might want to vomit. Deal with it. You know why? If I said fuck off to Madhavan, he has money and self esteem and would think “well fuck off to you too” and will leave me the fuck alone. Guess what will happen if I say the same fuck off to the Dhanush prototype? All you losers thinking you can do this – this is what we really think of you – we want to vomit.
Oop, I nust totally discriminated against the jobless and the creepy’s mighty right to stalk and torment me. Oop!
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rajen
October 20, 2016
Amit kanna, magizhchi. if you leave out the fan worshiping, you will understand the points people are making. Don’t strain yourself.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
October 20, 2016
I’m beginning to suspect some level of trolling is going on here. Or are we seriously unable to distinguish between stalking shown wrt mentally / psychotically disturbed characters and stalking valourised as heroism?
I suppose this wasn’t directed at me. Anyway, thanks Rahini for clearing the air!
Amit Joki: So what’s with calling him every time? Even by BRs own definition, Dhanush has hardly acted in 4 aforementioned movies which is stalkerish. But then words are thrown preposteroulsy as in Dhanush being the poster boy of stalkers. That’s where the problem lies.
Sigh. Once again, quoting BR’s response:
Had Dhanush stalked a girl in only one film, it would be just the character he played in that film. But because his films — at least at one point — consistently portrayed this, the attribute (“stalking”) transcends the screen and rubs off onto the Dhanush “persona.”
Further, when the actor/singer/lyricist in Dhanush is proud enough to declare himself a ‘soup boy’, I don’t see a reason why his fans are offended when others call out his films.
As for your idea of putting DK and KK into the same basket, I’m not surprised because I see that you have the tendency of ‘apples-to-automobiles’ – you’d once equated the likes of Thegidi and Vazhakku En 18/9 with the ‘stalker’ movies of Dhanush.
When my friends secretly sneaked into Trisha Illana Nayantara, they came out with a view that they would go out to any extent to find a virgin girl for them. I haven’t still been able to fully make them understand that that is extremely narrow to think of it that way and that past relations should never come in way and they should have no qualms if the girl of choice isn’t virgin. That never should be the parameter.
You sound like an ultra-feminist. It’s not hypocrisy when a virgin man/woman expects a bride/groom of their choice (virgin). That’s perfectly fine, IMO!
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Anu Warrier
October 20, 2016
Amit, I’m trying very, very hard not to hyperventilate. So. Housework is not a ‘woman’s domain’ but it is a maid’s – who, I’m assuming, is a robot? No? Can’t be a woman, no, even though ‘maid’ presupposes that? So magnanimous of you to agree to your wife earning, and not doing any housework.
I think I agree with ‘Tohellwithit’ – your defence of your ‘feminist’ credentials made me think of just the analogy she used.
Sunny Leone: You know what? Amit? Methinks you protest too much. And just the fact that you think she needs to be ‘defended for ‘doing her profession’ gives me the shivers. (Plus, I hope, in your zeal to reform your classmates/friends, you point out to them the hypocrisy of googling Sunny Leone and getting off to her pics while, at the same time, wanting a nice ‘virgin girl’ for themselves.)
Living in: Ah, the ‘think of the children’ defence. Nice touch, there. Of course, since I’m the one who brought in the ‘don’t need marriage to be committed’ point, let me answer this: if my sister or my hypothetical daughter were to have a live-in relationship with the man/woman they loved, I wouldn’t give a damn. Their life, their choices. I wonder whether you even understand that concept. And if they choose to have children, that’s also their choice. If those children had to face the oru appanukku porunthurunthundha question, I would hope they would be brought up to inform whoever (if they even chose to dignify that with an answer) that yes, in fact, they do have a father. When I put my husband’s name on my son’s birth certificate, the municipality didn’t ask for my marriage certificate, or for me to prove in any other way that I’m married to him. JFYI.
Two, people who will be crippled if society judges them absolutely shouldn’t be living in together. But who died and made you the arbiter of this gem?
At the end, they two realize that they cannot be only in love forever and decide to get married.
Guess from where? From the Wiki Page of OK Kanmani directed by the so revered one in here, the man himself, amidst applause, Mr. Mani Ratnam! Talk about legal stamp now!
You do know that Mani Ratnam didn’t write the Wiki page for OKK, don’t you? That Wiki is edited by the average chap down the street? What legal stamp? That two people in love decide to get married? That’s their choice, no? If they’d decided not to get married, that would be their choice too, and their commitment wouldn’t change? Whatever you or society thought of it?
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Iswarya
October 20, 2016
Okay.. I don’t want to pile on, but I would genuinely like to give Amit one hint: Empathy is one of the sure signs of growing up. Wanting to boil down everything in the universe to suit the small fixed point of oneself, one’s own desires, anger, justification, arbitration are all fine and natural, but they get in the way of empathy. Please do a count in your latest comment for how many times you have used the personal pronoun. Since I genuinely trust your intelligence, Amit, I’ll just leave it at that for you to ponder.
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Sumaar Moonji Rajkumaru
October 21, 2016
/// If a guy that looks like Madhavan comes up and talks to me in a railway station (where he happened to see me the previous day, while taking a train himself), yeah I’d welcome it. I met him at a wedding, we bantered and I spent all night thinking of him. If a jobless unemployed Dhanush (bite me, Amit Joki) who I’ve never met earlier and has creepily followed me from my home to the railway station comes up and says the same shit, I might want to vomit. Deal with it. You know why? If I said fuck off to Madhavan, he has money and self esteem and would think “well fuck off to you too” and will leave me the fuck alone. Guess what will happen if I say the same fuck off to the Dhanush prototype? All you losers thinking you can do this – this is what we really think of you – we want to vomit.
Oop, I nust totally discriminated against the jobless and the creepy’s mighty right to stalk and torment me. Oop! ///
This makes me think that women empowerment is all about the woman having the freedom to choose who she wants to be empowered by! That is how sad this argument is.
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Iswarya
October 21, 2016
I’ve had a long lurking suspicion that this particular thread (not the whole blog) is somehow becoming an troll/MCP-magnet! Which is probably a comment on the movie itself.. Anyway, I will refrain from posting any further comments on this thread for the sake of my own peace. Thanks, bye.
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ToHellWithIt
October 21, 2016
That’s because you have sumaar moonji and no comprehension skills. You will find it sad only. Rehne de.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
October 21, 2016
Iswarya :
“Empathy is one of the sure signs of growing up”
You grow taller every minute !
Well said !
One thing I’ve realized with age is that growing up seems to be a constant painful process and doesn’t really depend on one’s age. (example : myself – pushing fifty)
For instance I become ultra childish the moment I enter the dark world of WhatsApp.
Let’s grow up and also forgive ourselves repeatedly whenever we fall short of our maturity standards
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Uma
October 21, 2016
I dont know why some are upset that Shalini liked Madhavan’s advances in Alaipayuthey but women are repelled by Dhanush’s stalker style characters. Have any of these stalker characters stalked a very average/normal looking female. They all have to be stalking some super model type looking females and these women falling for this pureeee loveee. If Dhanush type character’s love is so pure, why not show stalking of some average looking females. These stories are like as somebody said just porn feeding fantasies for the people who watch these movies that something unrealistic is attainable for the below average joe.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
October 21, 2016
Uma : “just porn feeding fantasies for the people who watch these movies that something unrealistic is attainable for the below average joe.”
I suppose that’s why they are called “movies”
Why does the Hitchcock heroine always have to be a fire and ice blonde ?
Same reason.
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jam bajar jakku
October 21, 2016
Uma
This is the issue.
In siding with the general, often employed classism by commenters here, everyone is forgetting that men who commit crimes against women come from all strata of society and the shockingly are almost equally represented by the upper class. I keep hearing stories of upper class well educated well employed domestic abusers. If I were Shalini’s friend, I would have asked her to not encourage Madhavan because Madhavans turning out to be decent men happens only in Mani Ratnam movie who also in a way feeds a porn of his own to his target audience. In real life, one can never be sure about who is fine and who is not till you really know the person
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brangan
October 21, 2016
jam bajar jakku: Fantastic comment. That’s why exactly I said earlier that I have fewer problems with the “stalking” scenario when the boy offers the girl something she’s looking for. And this is a very subjective thing. Maybe she wants looks. Maybe money. Maybe security. Maybe she wants someone who can make her laugh. So when the boy offers her this and the plot thereon moves on to become something else — post-marriage blues in the case of Alaipaayuthey — then I don’t see the stalking as offensive. It’s a way to get the romance going. She shows interest.She isn’t repelled. That’s the important thing.
It’s when stalking becomes the whole point of the film that it begins to appear a problem. And so far, these depictions have only come via characters that are lower in the class hierarchy, but this would be a problem even with the so-called high-class boys.
Uma: I don’t know if I read you wrong, but your comment came across as looks-ist, as in “people who look like this are better off chasing their own kind.” As we all know, love happens between the most improbable people, and the point is more that these guys we see in the films have nothing to offer the girl other than “pure love” than the way they look.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
October 21, 2016
Guys, the discussion thread has been astounding but IMHO we seem to be going into partially murky waters by labeling everything as a strain of porn.
What’s next ?
Labeling Maggi noodles as porn since its bad for health but panders to a certain taste ?
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Anu Warrier
October 21, 2016
women empowerment is all about the woman having the freedom to choose
Let me tweak that comment for you; shorn of its beginning and end, this statement is now correct for me, and for many, many women like me. It is CHOICE, people, and CONSENT. Are these two words so hard to understand?
But, like Iswarya, sensible, firebrand, dedicated Iswarya, I bow out as well. This post has been a huge distraction for me these past few days. It’s like watching a train wreck in action and not being able to distance myself from it [commenting]. 🙂 So, over and out.
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Rahini David
October 21, 2016
Uma, normal women do get stalked in real life. In movies we need someone who will look pretty in skimpy clothes. Hence pretty women on screen. Vulnerable women get stalked more than confident women.
BR and jam bazar jakku: uma is talking about the double standard of choosing someone entirely based on her looks and then cribbing that she is a superficial bitch who rejected you based on your looks. If looks are not everything then try to peep into her soul first and then go talk to her. Not easy? Not easy for us either. A guy we chose based on mutual superficial attraction may be bad news. That will remain to be seen. But We can’t reject all handsome sweet talking men and find the smelliest ugliest foul-mouthed truck rider hoping that this is the way to go, no?
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KayKay
October 21, 2016
ToHellWithIt: Thank you Thank You Thank you! Coming from a lady, those points of view just gain so much more potency.
B: I don’t think there’s so much trolling here (the purest troll around these parts is that gentlemen forget his name Ganesh something or other, has a face made for mugshots who drops by once in a blue moon to post some nonsensical non-sequitur) as this particular topic that flushes a certain species out of the woods (the one that converts so-called “Long Time Lurkers” to “Commentators”).
There’s the rabid fan boy who sees the dig at his hero’s films/characters and hear a clarion call to arms to defend his idol at all cost. A common weapon in their arsenal is ” Why you singling out my [Hero] when others get a free pass”. Trotting out actual evidence that this Hero has a higher than usual average of films that glorify stalking is gasoline to these fan-boys’ flaming passion.
Then there’s the slightly more insidious creature. Not necessarily a fan boy per se but someone who comes in armed with an Agenda (kinda like Raja fan boys who drop into a Rahman album review thread not to articulate their specific reasons for not liking the album, but to chastise the rest of us for daring to forget how awesome the Isaignani is, something akin to saying Slavery was like…really bad, you know?), who cherry pick statements to browbeat the rest of us, whom they, ironically, feel have an Agenda of our own. Their insular view points echo off the walls of their own assholes, a circle jerk humping a one-note thrum of tedium.
Here, the Sneaky Agenda we’re apparently propagating is that, we’re singling out “dark skinned” heroes or “Local Boys Made Good Without The Safety Net of Film Dynasty Benefactors” for stalking, while giving other so called “Fairer Skin” heroes a free pass. Never mind the fact that my “Free Pass” examples, Madhavan and Surya, wouldn’t exactly make the cut for the “after” portions of a Fair & Lovely ad. Let facts not get in the way of an insecurity-fueled world view.
The (admittedly) simplistic statement I made about Men doing the picking the women doing the choosing was meant to reflect the male-female dynamics inherent in the courting/dating/flirting stages, something anyone who’s logged sufficient time in the Dating Trenches would know. This was interpreted…… LITERALLY, and a helpful rebuttal offered that “Hey dude, that’s wrong man, men do the picking too you know” and a scornful put-down issued castigating me for coming across like a wannabe-Casanova flounting the notches on his belt. I suppose I should have said I celebrate my 14th Wedding Anniversary this December, but seriously,why bother? As I said before, Pearls before Swines. And like Iswarya said, some threads are just lightning rods for MCPs.
If nothing else, Uncouth Village Idiots…sorry Youths have reaffirmed my admiration for the ladies here especially Iswarya who still fight the Good Fight.
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Madan
October 21, 2016
“If a guy that looks like Madhavan comes up and talks to me in a railway station (where he happened to see me the previous day, while taking a train himself), yeah I’d welcome it.” – You mean, guys who look (let me emphasise that again – look) like Madhavan would never ever hurt a woman, right? Frankly, such attitudes seem to only validate the allegations of elitism being involved in targeting Dhanush or Sivakarthikeyan films for their depiction of stalking.
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ToHellWithIt
October 21, 2016
BR, Madan: After these many comments, we have come a full circle and since you guys still feel the need to call US classist/elitist, I’m going to copy paste Anu. At this point, I feel like Brangan himself is trolling.
“In any rom-com you see today, the hero is almost always dark-skinned/uneducated and/or from a lower socio-economic class. He spend his time pursuing a fairly well-educated, usually rich, definitely fair-skinned heroine. He teaches her the error of her ways, either by slapping her, or by humiliating her in public. And then she promptly falls in love with him, usually leaving her well-off, educated and usually equally boorish BF/fiance for the hero (whose boorishness apparently hides a heart of gold). If the stalker is a rich guy from the same background, he is usually the villain.
So. Who is bringing class into the equation here?”
Madan: I also laid out exactly what happened in AP before the train scene. If you want to take only the “looks” into consideration, fuck that. I was talking about AP, not EVERY SINGLE guy that looks decent, on the planet. I cannot believe i have to explain this. Let me also add that I have no great opinion of Indian men and there is no way i assume any guy is safe based on just looking at him. If you’ve lived my life, you will get why.
BR: As you said, love is improbable yadda yadda. But in Tamil cinema the improbable is rendered the only way with every single loser hero targeting an “improbably” unattainable girl and taming / getting her. I have no problem being labelled classist if i do not enjoy the attentions of someone nothing like me that follows me around and creeps me out, when i have nothing in common with him. i don’t give a shit if that does not sound politically correct – it is my fucking life. Try being stalked a few times and living in fear of having acid thrown on your face or being afraid of giving the slightest amount of offence, fearing consequences.
KayKay: Man, thank you for getting it. Move to India, maybe?
Fuck, I’m done with this thread too. The other ladies are too polite to say this – Y’all suck.
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Madan
October 21, 2016
“If you want to take only the “looks” into consideration, fuck that. ” – I have no other option with the way you worded it. You are basically saying you would tolerate advances by a guy who looks urbane and handsome while you would regard the unwashed vagabonds as, well, exactly that. No problem with the latter, the former, though, is quite troublesome. There is really nothing much to ‘accuse’ for me here. I only had to deduce it from your chosen words, that’s all. There are too many biases, prejudices and baggages et al in TN. Not that there aren’t in other states but the movies also get into the act in a big way in TN to play up the caste/class conflicts. I really don’t know what can be done to disentangle it but both sides seem to take cognisance of this divide even while strenuously denying it.
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Rahini David
October 21, 2016
ToHellWithIt: I love you, dear. Thank you for saying whatever you said.
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Madan
October 21, 2016
Sorry, meant to write troubling there, not troublesome. Note to self that it’s time to go to bed before the typos get worse.
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jam bajar jakku
October 21, 2016
“”I have no problem being labelled classist if i do not enjoy the attentions of someone nothing like me that follows me around and creeps me out, when i have nothing in common with him. i don’t give a shit if that does not sound politically correct – it is my fucking life. Try being stalked a few times and living in fear of having acid thrown on your face or being afraid of giving the slightest amount of offence, fearing consequences”””
for every remo, there’s a highway
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Rahini David
October 21, 2016
Sumar moonji and uncouth: you both have tried using two of feminist weapons to puncture feminism itself. Good try. One is the assertion that madhavan reduces shalini to just a pretty face and surya pursues sameera inspite of her obvious ambitions. Second is that empowerment is shown primarily in choosing who a woman wants to be empowered by. Silly nonsense, of course.
Telling an accomplished woman that she is pretty is not ‘reducing’ her to mere looks. You can tell a doctor you are flirting with that she is pretty. You just should not put her profession or her commitment down. He is not infatuated with her gold medal or her plus two cut off marks. That is not detrimental to feminism.
Surya knows of sameeras ambition and wants to be this ambitious woman’s life partner. He flirts with her and woos her. Why should he not? Assuming that empowerment is the domain of men and spinsters is silly. Women love to come back from accomplishing something great in professional sphere and a having a decent sweet soulmate who understands their dreams and ambitions. Not too difficult to understand, I hope. Because men like such soulmates too. Very same concept.
And we want to be in control of our life. Our clothes, our careers, our marital status, our reproductive freedom, our names, our religious beliefs, our life partners. It is you who reduced female choice to solely the men in their lives. The lady did not.
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brangan
October 21, 2016
ToHellWithIt: Of course it is your choice to accept/reject whoever. I was just talking about Uma’s point that sounded weird to me, as though people who look like X should only stalk girls who look like them.
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Anu Warrier
October 21, 2016
@ToHellWithIt – whoever you are, may I say it’s a pleasure to ‘know’ you? And that I love your screen name just as much as I like your opinions? Thank you for saying what I should have had the courage to say, but didn’t.
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San
October 22, 2016
Just one thought stayed with me after watching Remo.
The impact of the movie on the mainstream tamil audience seems to be the same as the impact of Siva’s character on the heroine in the movie.
Let’s think about it.
The first time the heroine actually meets the hero, she is fascinated by his grand and over the top proposal.
She is made to believe that SK’s character is the right person for her (by the disguised hero himself ).
It is shown that she falls in love with him even before she actually get’s to know him properly. His story. Who is he? What he actual does for a living? SK’s character even points it out in a dialogue towards the end of the film.
The heroine is continuously tricked, twisted and emotionally exploited by the hero throughout the film. But still at the end of it all, she finds the hero to be really fun and charming and generous and courageous and blah blah blah.
I can go on with this comparison if anyone is interested. But it might become over-emphasising, so i better stop here.
And kindly pardon me if this has already been pointed out by someone.
Peace.
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Uma
October 22, 2016
Rahini,
Loved your comment. Yes stalking in real life can happen to any woman. But in movies our youth only want to see pretty looking things in skimpy clothes pursued and attained by our below average joes. Because obviously that gives them hope. Most of us know what message these recent idiotic rom-coms masquerading as family entertainers convey ( including some of movies made by Udhaya Nidhi Stalin, the silly Arya Nayanthara movie with Nanbenda dialogues). The message is consistent: good for nothing, aimless guys can attain good looking, ambitious females just simply by following them around until they give in. I watched a recent interview of Anupama chopra with Diljit Dosanjh where she asked this same question, why in his movies the heroes are always good for nothing fellows and the heroines are well educated, outspoken, ambitious and yet fall for them. I think he answered something along the lines of that is what audience wants or something like that. So the problem seems to be with most of our regional movies. Our directors dish out crap in the name of this is what audience wants, yet in real life I dont think females want this. I really praise Iswarya’s attempts with the petition. Should also start questioning these bubbly, loose ponnu portraying heroines about some of their choices.
Funnily enough, when Alaipayuthey released, I was in medical college and our hostel warden banned the movie from this movie played out during one of our movie nights, lest some of the girls get some ideas to elope.
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tonks
October 22, 2016
For the record, in my personal opinion, Dhanush has much more sex appeal than an Aravindswamy or a Madhavan. Also I feel the primary reason the soup song “Why this Kolaveri, di” became viral is Dhanush’s sex appeal, screen presence and charisma. After not watching Tamil movies for a long time, a few years back, I happened to watch Dhanush at a Malayalam award function and actively sought out and watched most of his movies because I liked him so much. And the content was a rude shock. While I find it perfectly believable that women fall for someone like him, I absolutely loathed it that movie after Dhanush movie glorified stalking and misogyny. He produced the lovely Kaakka Muttai. His wife has been appointed as the UN women’s advocate for gender equality.
http://m.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/aishwaryaa-rajnikanth-appointed-un-womens-advocate-for-gender-equality/article9046415.ece
Is it naive to hope that with a little sensitisation and awareness (which is all this movement and the petition seeks to do primarily), they will perhaps start making movies that do not glorify misogyny or ride slip shod over women’s choices or consent? Like was mentioned in Iswarya’s interview, it would be so wonderful if Aishwaryaa Dhanush or someone re-made a ‘Pink’ in Tamil. Perhaps Rajnikant can play Amitabh’s character? That would be the day!
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tonks
October 22, 2016
And feature item numbers that go like explain what consent means , like this :
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tonks
October 22, 2016
Our directors dish out crap in the name of this is what audience wants, yet in real life I dont think females want this.
Their target audience is not females, but male youth. It’s disturbing though how so many young females too are apparently ok with the movie.
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MV
October 22, 2016
Just a point: This whole discussion hinges on the assumption that the women who are stalked give out proper negative signals to the stalkers and make their intentions clear – vocally / verbally.
This possibly is the case with a few clear thinking, decisive types. But in reality, you have a major group of sumaar-moonji-kumaaris (or to be honest – sumaar-self-esteem-kumaris) who keep blinking RED AMBER GREEN faster than a traffic signal in T.Nagar. Why? Coz it is sometimes cool to have someone fawning over. (Source: Me – I did that in my abominable late teens!). Just try to catch the conversations that happen in Saravana Stores among the puny, malnourished sales women – it would invariably be about louuuv.
Pink had this “No means No” as its main emphasis. Just that it should be taught to women as well.
As an aside – Amit Joki is in his teens. Him being this open to challenge societal norms says a lot about his maturity beyond his age. The average 30 year old I know still believes in virginity and slut-shaming. And the average teen is no where near such blogs. So give him his space to vent – he is almost there.
Most men oscillate between acceptance of feminism and resistance to change. As women, that too from better backgrounds with better opportunities, explaining it to them over and over again is the least we can do.
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Madan
October 22, 2016
“Telling an accomplished woman that she is pretty is not ‘reducing’ her to mere looks. ” – Yet even President Obama was not spared the knives by the feminists when he, after richly praising Kamala Harris’s accomplishments, went on to add that she was by far the best looking attorney general in the country. It doesn’t need to be said that Obama is by and large on the side of the feminists. I am sorry but they really need to make up their minds here as to what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. I agree that people may have diverse opinions but when you draw up rules as to what those from the other gender should or should not say, there has to be some consistency in it. It cannot be so wildly divergent. And attacking men for the sake of attacking, which is what the Obama incident smacks of, will only dent the larger and more important cause. Yes, I know these are relatively minor transgressions compared to what women go through but it is still neither desirable nor helpful. I am not being defensive on behalf of the men; I just dread the rise of the far right which will take away the freedoms that we now take almost for granted. And militant leftism combined with widespread unemployment creates perfect conditions for that to happen. It has already happened to some, if not a large extent, in India.
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Anu Warrier
October 22, 2016
@tonks, in my personal opinion, Dhanush has much more sex appeal than an Aravindswamy or a Madhavan.
Move over, sister, and let me join you in agreement. Which is why half the arguments on this page that respond – snidely – that Madhavan in Alaipayuthey was getting a pass because of his looks, and because he’s ‘upper class’. And that the only reason we were castigating Dhanush was because he ‘looked’ like the other.
I don’t know about the others, but I’m perfectly capable of distinguishing actor from character, and if I was pulling up Dhanush, SK, et al, it was because, in recent films, they were the ones who were regularly playing characters who stalked women in the name of love. Of course, that makes me classist. The fact remains that if Dhanush had been playing the Alaipayuthey character, and Shalini’s character had responded to him the way she did, we wouldn’t have had any issue with the portrayal. Because she likes that attention, she responds favourably to it. Now, if she hadn’t and had in fact rejected his advances and sent him on his way and he still importuned her, whether it was Madhavan/Aravind Swami/Dhanush/Aamir/SRK/whoever, I would still have had a problem. I fail to understand why this is so hard to understand.
Thanks for the Taapsee/Angad Bedi video. It is a great PSA. I hope, made in the medium and the idiom that these guys will understand, at least some of them will pay heed to the message. (And yes, that goes for the women who play ‘hard to get’ too. Gah!)
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ToHellWithIt
October 22, 2016
“ToHellWithIt: Of course it is your choice to accept/reject whoever. I was just talking about Uma’s point that sounded weird to me, as though people who look like X should only stalk girls who look like them.”
Her point is why people who look like X ALWAYS stalk people that look like in Y in Tamil films, and NEVER women that look like X. I fail to see what is weird about pointing that out. Is that message not insidious? Is it not spilling over to real life? Why does an unemployed Ramkumar think he can stalk Infosys employed Swathi? Why was he emboldened to cut her to bits because she said no? Your big problem is that Uma said maybe X should stalk X sometimes and not always Y?
For all of you calling us racist/classist/elitist, umm no – the racists are the directors, scriptwriters, heros and audience for these movies. They hate their skin tone and look down on it much more than we ever could. They aspire to a fairer skin tone and hence the uniform appearance of every heroine in these films. Calling this out does not make US the racists.
Maybe the guy from the last stalking thread that called stalking a mating ritual to high praise can make an appearance here. Then BR can drop mic and close this thread, for truly every justification for stalking will have made an appearance.
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brangan
October 22, 2016
ToHellWithIt: Her point is why people who look like X ALWAYS stalk people that look like in Y in Tamil films, and NEVER women that look like X.
I guess I missed the “always” and the “never” in her comment, which seemed, at first read, all-inclusive. Hence this preface to my rejoinder to Uma: “I don’t know if I read you wrong…”
Not everyone here is defending stalking or calling out hypocrisies. Some of us are just trying to come to grips with what’s acceptable in a cinematic context.
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ToHellWithIt
October 22, 2016
Jam Bajaar makku: For every 1000 Remos, there’s one Highway and 100 Swathis. You want to point out Highway, cos you’re probably a guy. I want to point out Swathi, cos I’m a girl. Also, Highway was a film and Swathi was real life.
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Aadhy
October 22, 2016
The directors of Remo and similar crap would be laughing their backs off watching all those furiously defending such movies with whataboutery here. Isn’t that the whole point behind writing such supposedly “underdog” characters? Make the hero not have something the heroine has: education, looks, social respect, self-respect. So that people would use one of the same traits as a weapon to dole out classist labels to others who are genuinely disgusted by the hero’s behavior. And how many times have we seen and do we need to see, the heroine being shown the error of her ways ? Just because she was guilty of having her own mind and committed the blasphemy of making a choice that doesn’t please our beloved underdog. There is a movie where an underdog aka ‘justified’ stalkerman molests the heroine at a beach party and threatens her of acid attack when she slams his dad for condoning stalking. You can absolutely see the director thinking “Oh shit, audience have started cringing slightly. Let’s kill off the dad to bring in the sympathy votes, so that the audience forget all the harassment that took place before this. Let’s go even a bit further and make the heroine feel responsible for his dad’s death. Phew, the underdog credibility of our stalker has been restored. Let’s now watch in peace as the audience applaud the heroine uniting with this creep (someone who no one in a sane world would even want to hangout with). Because, underdog.” This is Yaradi Nee Mohini, in case it isn’t clear by now. And it’s understandable that people want to pin down Madhavan’s character from AP. He is part of a start-up, has ambitions, shares a smoke with his female friend without resorting to culture policing, might actually know the meaning of consent and would have left Shalini alone if she had expressed disinterest after all that initial banter. In other words, a character drawing no sympathy, anything but an underdog. But no, let us choose to be oblivious to the difference between these two characters and continue with our whataboutery here. Whatever.
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Madan
October 22, 2016
“let us choose to be oblivious to the difference between these two characters” – Of course the characters are different. But if you – as in a figurative you – go beyond that and say you would accept stalking by a guy who looks like Madhavan, that is problematic. I assumed the problem was in the creepiness quotient of the advances and not the class and upbringing of the person? There is no point in later justifying it with umpteen clarifications. There is a class element on both sides and these movies tap into it, clearly siding with the boys. Not necessarily because they are boys but because they represent the low class underdogs. Notice how Drishyam spared no effort in depicting the upper class culprit as utterly evil. Is it only a coincidence? Increasingly, I suspect it is not. There is a reaction going on to this reverse-classist bias in the movies with urban women saying not only that they find stalking scary but also that they have contempt for low class vagabonds fancying themselves as deserving of upper class fair toned women. The overt fangirl worship for Maddy is possibly also a result of that. Something can and should be done about the glorification of stalking in movies but to say someone who looks like a dhanush type poriki (if I may use that word) is ab initio not worthy of having a relationship with an upper class urban woman can neither be defended nor can moviemakers be asked to toe such a line.
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tonks
October 22, 2016
Also this :
https://www.facebook.com/events/636468066533897/?ti=cl
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Aadhy
October 22, 2016
Madan: ” I assumed the problem was in the creepiness quotient of the advances and not the class and upbringing of the person? “.
Exactly. And don’t you think that there is a VAST difference between the creepiness quotient of a SK in Remo and that of a Madhavan in AP, purely judging by their acts (forget background and all that), and that a stronger aversion towards the former is only natural?
“…urban women saying not only that they find stalking scary but also that they have contempt for low class vagabonds fancying themselves as deserving of upper class fair toned women. “
I don’t think anyone is showing extra contempt for someone because of his class, looks etc. Anyone who disregards consent is a culprit. They are just pointing out that there is always a tendency in Tamil cinema to reduce the ‘wrongness’ of stalking by making the hero an underdog, so that people would take the bait and start sympathizing with him, and in most cases, even root for him. This is a clever tactic regularly employed by tamil filmmakers to conceal the crime. There is clearly an attempt in Remo-like movies to justify stalking by trying to invoke this sentiment among the audience : “Ivangala madiri pasangaluku vaipugal amayadhu. Pavam enna panvanga” . This is a dialogue in the movie, btw.
“The overt fangirl worship for Maddy is possibly also a result of that. “
In this same thread, people have called Maddy out for Minnale. Even Kamal haasan is held responsible for his creepy antics in Singaravelan. There is clearly no soft corner for anyone when it comes to disrespecting consent, as far as I can see. If a Maddy or Surya or Siddharth or whoever the next chocolate boy is, is gonna do with his next movie what SK or Dhanush have been doing in most of their movies, he’s gonna evoke the same reaction.
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tonks
October 22, 2016
At one point, she offers to quit her job to assuage her boyfriend’s ego.“I wanted him. I was ready to be his girl, just the way he wanted me to be,” she says. She stalks her exes with the tenacity with which Tamil heroes stalk heroines
Amused to see this simile in a literary review in the Hindu published online today
http://m.thehindu.com/books/literary-review/chitralekha-manohar-reviews-chetan-bhagats-one-indian-girl/article9251673.ece
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ThouShaltNot
October 22, 2016
Feminism is a noble creed. To beat it with a stick over technicalities or to play gotcha with it for an inartfully expressed view or two misses the point. This is not a plea for unanimity of opinion. Just that there are too many red herring arguments that saps the energy of the few who are putting up a stout defense of the overarching position.
Iswarya is a Braveheart. So are those who banded together with her to craft the petition or are helping her in other ways to make a dent in the mindset of Tamil youth (I hear the rumble, “Pallakkil vaithu Pallaandu paada vandhutaan Jaalraa!”. Fine. Pardon the panegyric).
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Karthik
October 22, 2016
What drives people to over analyse certain movies ? Are they really worth overthinking ? Why is that a film not taken at its face value ? i.e. entertainment for the masses money for the entrepreneur. The concept of film making in TN is pure economics. Reviewing content has not made any difference until now because even if any of the existing film makers read reviews and comments the result would be somewhat better content.
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Anu Warrier
October 22, 2016
“Telling an accomplished woman that she is pretty is not ‘reducing’ her to mere looks. ” – Yet even President Obama was not spared the knives by the feminists when he, after richly praising Kamala Harris’s accomplishments, went on to add that she was by far the best looking attorney general in the country.
Madan, do you not see the difference between telling a woman personally that she looks beautiful (which doesn’t reduce her to ‘mere looks’) and speaking of an accomplished woman as if, apart from all her other accomplishments, the fact that she was the best-looking attorney there was the most important? It was a rare mis-step for Obama, and yes, he deserved to be called out for it. (Not for the ‘outrage’ if there was any – I don’t remember now, so I’ll take your word for it that he wasn’t ‘spared the knives’.) If, speaking to Harris, he had made the same statement after he had complimented her on her various accomplishments, I for one, would have thought nothing more of it. Also, as a public figure, Obama does have to be more careful of what he says, and how and where he says it. Not just about women, but just about anything.
I agree with you that ‘looks like Maddy’ isn’t a great reason to condone stalking. But in Alaipayuthey haven’t Madhavan and Shalini already met at the wedding and had a conversation before he begins following her? She already knows who he is, has some idea of what he does, and is, if not in ‘love’, at least attracted enough. Doesn’t that remove the ‘stalking’ element from this relationship? And I assumed that ToHellWithIt’s comment was in connection with the film.
For me, personally, if it had been Dhanush in that specific role, I would have still not seen it as stalking, whatever ‘class’ he came from. Because there’s an implied consent there. I realise I don’t have to convince you about the need for a woman’s consent or the seriousness of the issue when it comes to this. I was just responding to what you, and many others, see as classist.
And I ask you – general ‘you’, not Madan personally – why is not classist when the (usually) uneducated/poor/uncouth/darkskinned/loser-sort-of-guy (which seems to be the trademark feature of most of these characters) aspire to ‘getting’ only the (usually) fair-skinned/educated/wealthy/working heroine? And why is it only classist for said (usually) fair-skinned/educated/wealthy/working heroine to reject such a character?
Why is it ‘aspirational’ in one case (which is the root cause of our problems) and ‘classist’ in another? If ‘aspirations’ are alright, why isn’t it okay for women to have aspirations in who or what their mate should be?
And at the end of it all, shouldn’t there be mutual consent to be in a relationship, aspirational or otherwise? Man or woman, we can’t just declare ourselves to be in luvvv and think that a relationship will follow?
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Jaga_Jaga
October 22, 2016
I will play the devil’s (or film-maker’s) advocate here and ask the following:
These films are aimed at the Tamil “youth” of the day. The phrase “youth” here strictly refers to a generic lower-middle class male student studying in some New college, Pachayappas, Loyola, or some local engineering college etc. The society in general has no hope from these kids.
But they are the ones who can devote their energy and time for their “talaivars” (read people like Siva Kartikeyan, Vijay Setupati, Dhanush, Simbu et. al) and propel them into stardom – not the educated people, or those who care about the society. They don’t have the time for the stars!
And here is the most important point – this set of “youth” will easily dismiss any concept which goes against their notion of what is considered cool or in local lingo “taaru maaru”, or “mass”. They only want to hear what they want to hear. Anything else and they will not just call the idea “boring”, but would repel those ideas (which they find un-cool) with such passion that as much as they can make a star out of a mere actor, they can dump him anytime so badly that the hero completely loses all hopes of becoming a star.
Under this scenario, what can a film-maker/hero do?? Pay lip-service to the more serious people (who are anyways irrelevant to their career), and focus solely on these energetic/passionate youth. Feed them what they want to hear – a huge part of which is something like, “listen my dear fella, you are not worthless, you need not change. Not just the regular woman you meet on the street, even the richest woman you can think of will fall for you, just by you being yourself. Even if it means being a loafer. That’s entirely fine. Women will swoon for you dude, just because of who you are, what your values are.”
So its all about pandering to your core constituency. To hell with society, to hell with women.
What should a logical reply be to such an argument (of course it is another story that I don’t think any kollywood film-maker/hero would be so politically incorrect and calla a spade a spade!)??
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sachita
October 23, 2016
I am sort of shocked at how this thread about consent is getting side tracked by taking the examples out of context.
When Uma says she will talk to Madhavan – she has a preference for madhavan types and she responds. Some one else has a preference for dhanush types. Once the girl has shown interest or responded to it positively it isnt stalking anymore and it is irrelevant to this thread.
Instead,”One of these madhavans can be creepy or what not ” – anyone can be creepy/horrible. Not sure what this has a role in thread about consent and harassment?
*
And some one else mentioned,
“major group of sumaar-moonji-kumaaris (or to be honest – sumaar-self-esteem-kumaris) who keep blinking RED AMBER GREEN faster than a traffic signal in T.Nagar. Why? Coz it is sometimes cool to have someone fawning over. (Source: Me – I did that in my abominable late teens!). Just try to catch the conversations that happen in Saravana Stores among the puny, malnourished sales women – it would invariably be about louuuv.”
Women do fall in love and want to fall in love too? so what is the point here? Nobody is saying Sumaar moonji kumar/kumari cant/wont fall in love or doesnt want to be wooed over.
CONSENT. In cinemas we are talking about here – it is RED RED RED followed by shaming the heroine for RED shaming her father too for her RED followed by the most illogical GREEN.
*
“This makes me think that women empowerment is all about the woman having the freedom to choose” – this part of your sentence is right. rest of it doesnt make sense. she doesnt have to empowered essentially by a ‘man’. the Man she is marrying is just that – a partner of her choice just like it is for the man who is marrying her.
**
1. girl has every right to have her share of fantasies just like the guy/ any other human being
2. she has choice to say no just like the guy/ any other human being
3. and once she says no – the only option for you is LEAVE HER ALONE. True of other human beings too.
Tamil/hindi cinema is essentially a capitalistic group. They are catering to the good for nothing people’s fantasies because I am assuming the good for nothing people are the core ‘cash paying’ audience. But the hope is these arguments against stalking – like the review above/vikatan review/ talk shows – will reach a critical mass and have an impact on the movies and after 10+ years of this stalking template somebody in tamil cinema might spend 10 minutes and come up with a new template for the love track of the hero – that is the hope.
I do have to say though the past love track template have all been demeaning women.
Thimir padicha(arrogant) heroine who will eventually be taught a lesson on being submissive by hero because you know women have to be submissive.
now this.
Sigh!
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Kay
October 23, 2016
Having spent two and a half hours reading all the comments, I would like to put forth the following points-if we are still discussing that is.
UVY, I’m confused. Do you understand what stalking is and what we are discussing here? Or do you deliberately choose to misunderstand?? I would have expected all those comments from Amit here (meaning someone in his teens), but never from someone who supposedly manages a team in a corporate! I’m not going to go into further explanations of what exactly Iswarya and her team is trying to achieve. I only hope you realise it very soon.
Amit, sweetheart, take your time, and think about what everyone has been telling you. I feel you have some progressive thoughts for someone your age and I’m just going to assu me it was all a huge miscommunication or maybe a limited to ability to better articulate your thoughts. Just to reiterate, a woman can’t be YOURS. A MAID is also a WOMAN. A relationship need not end in marriage or elopement. People can mutually agree that they won’t suit and break up. Dhanush did sing about white skin girl-u making his future black-u, which resonated with almost all guys who have had unreciprocated feelings for a girl; so, he’s not the paragon of virtue you have idealised him to be. Finally, I do hope you get over the self consciousness that other short films are getting lot of comments whereas yours didn’t, and actively engage in conversation so that you can learn how to improve yourself. The first learning comes with the acknowledgement that I’m not perfect and that the other person can teach me what I can do to improve.
-Iswarya, Anu, Tonks, Olemiss, a big shout out to you ladies for the work that you are doing. As one of the victims of stalking and being threatened and living in the fear of the guy trying to harm me, I’m glad someone has taken the initiative to put an end to it. Planting the seed for the discussion itself is a big achievement and you have made people question what was accepted as a norm. Keep it up.
Oh. I forgot. Arun, sorry for being the insufferable know-it-all/grammar nazi (even though I’m far from perfect), but their – pronoun, there – adverb. Every time I read ‘their’ used in the place of ‘there’, I had to go back and read the sentence from the beginning. 😕
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Madan
October 23, 2016
“If, speaking to Harris, he had made the same statement after he had complimented her on her various accomplishments, I for one, would have thought nothing more of it.” – Which is exactly what he did. It’s there in the quote: “You have to be careful to, first of all, say she is brilliant and she is dedicated and she is tough, and she is exactly what you’d want in anybody who is administering the law, and making sure that everybody is getting a fair shake,” Obama said. “She also happens to be, by far, the best looking attorney general in the country.”
Sorry, what part of that is sexist? So here’s the thing. People jump to criticize the president of United States without understanding what exactly he said but they don’t like their own words being picked apart? No, it does not work that way. Why would it be so difficult for women to pick their battles and focus on important things?
“why is not classist when the (usually) uneducated/poor/uncouth/darkskinned/loser-sort-of-guy (which seems to be the trademark feature of most of these characters) aspire to ‘getting’ only the (usually) fair-skinned/educated/wealthy/working heroine? And why is it only classist for said (usually) fair-skinned/educated/wealthy/working heroine to reject such a character” – It is classist and I covered it earlier in my response to Amit Joki, which everyone by now has conveniently forgotten. I am just saying it is classist both ways and let’s acknowledge that. Class is a fact of life and much harder to eliminate than racism or casteism. The moment you let some people have more money than others, you create classes. And I repeat, I am not equating the AP and Remo scenarios but I stand by my comment that saying you wouldn’t mind advances by a guy who looks like Madhavan is naive and problematic. Maybe she didn’t mean it that way but she then certainly needs to be more careful with how she phrases her responses.
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Madan
October 23, 2016
“Exactly. And don’t you think that there is a VAST difference between the creepiness quotient of a SK in Remo and that of a Madhavan in AP, purely judging by their acts (forget background and all that), and that a stronger aversion towards the former is only natural?” – But that is not what it was said. It was about a guy who looks like Madhavan and a guy who looks like Dhanush/SK on the flipside. What part of the equation depends on looks again? If it is not part of the equation, don’t bring it into it, simple.
“I don’t think anyone is showing extra contempt for someone because of his class, looks etc.” – Speak for yourself. This class angle came up earlier too in the original stalking thread. I defended against it at the time and I did here too but with naive how could a heartthrob like Maddy do any harm angles, I am done.
“In this same thread, people have called Maddy out for Minnale. ” – Again, people and not ToHellWithIt in particular. And, no, I am not being nitpicky, when such a serious issue is being discussed, people ought to be more careful not to get carried away with how they express their thoughts. When I pointed it out to her, all she did was pretend I am trolling. Fine, in that case, let me carry on with my ‘trolling’. You can’t ride the Derrida tiger when it suits you and then jump off it at your convenience. If words apparently say a lot about the person spouting them, then her words did reveal a heck of a lot.
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Madan
October 23, 2016
“I am sort of shocked at how this thread about consent is getting side tracked by taking the examples out of context.” – Right, so stick into consent. If the female character in a film is shown to consent to advances by Guna, it is fair game. Don’t bring in the class angle. Just because it makes some viewers cringe doesn’t mean it’s not acceptable. What indeed is not acceptable is to show the woman repeatedly turning down her stalker only for him to eventually ‘conquer’ her. It is so crystal clear when framed in these terms so where did looks come into the equation? Maybe I should have been less caustic in my approach (in my defence I just felt disgusted) but all I am trying to say is you are all playing into the hands of UCY/AJ by defending that looks like Maddy so he’s fine angle. Of course a woman has the freedom to choose whom she wants to get into bed with but that should be the central and only argument. Criticizing the filmmakers for even daring to cast a guy like SK dreaming of making advances to a beautiful fair toned woman is plainly classist. I reproduce the words that brought back class into the discussion just when it had been banished:
“. These stories are like as somebody said just porn feeding fantasies for the people who watch these movies that something unrealistic is attainable for the below average joe.” – You.Cannot.Defend.That. Period. OK, please go ahead defending that and castigating me if it makes you feel better. I really don’t mind, seriously. But it’s not going to help the larger cause and will make everyone who condones it look like hypocrites in turn.
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Amit Joki
October 23, 2016
I swear I meant Maid as a servant. I didn’t knew it was gender specific.
Second, sarcastic replies to what I think, on the lines, oh thank you very much what would we do if you were not there, kind of comment, I was pushed to explain my stance because people in general in here reduced me to some misogynistic shit and it hurt my feminist ego that I retaliated stating what I actually think.
Maid was an honest mistake. I acknowledge. I meant it as a servant. In the sitcoms my mom watches on Sony TV, Ek Duje Ke Vaaste(this was so well directed), and Kuch Rang Pyaar Ke(this is shit imo), the servants are male, which is what I had to imply.
Honest Raj: Yes because the baskets a huge one along the lines anythin by any means to get a girl. If you or BR can show me where stalking is played out by Dhanush, apart from what I myself have stated, I will henceforth stop being offended when Dhanush gets called out in some movie unrelated to him and even if the last stalking movie he did was like 3 years ago.
And I am ultra feminist? Fine. That’s my choice. I didn’t shove my views on them. Just stated. “It’s their choice” is a catch all statement mate. There can be no further arguments.
Kay: No I have never seen him as a paragon of goodness. Thanks for being among the very few who care to “empathise” with me. When you introduce your wife you would do it like “En pondatti’ that “en” is all I am talking about. Just the sense of it. Not actually yours materially or literally.
Iswarya: Ditto. Whats with the pronoun argument which seems to me completely flaccid. I get cornered. I get painted in colours I know I am not painted in. So I must defned myself. No body would show me empathy. I can talk for myself alone when I am defending myself.
Anu: (.) A period. Hope you don’t make something out of this comment. TOI where are you? You have repeatedly jumped my points and latched on to what you think are debatable, those points you make, takes my A and turn it into Z. I am done with you. I know you will be more happy to be done with me too. Peace.
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ThouShaltNot
October 23, 2016
Successful women in a corporate or government hierarchy have to contend with a question that successful men don’t. That is, “Might her ascendancy be for reasons other than skills required for the job?!”. There were already enough murmurs about Harris and her success in government. If you are from the modeling or movie industry, attractiveness counts. But, Attorneys General don’t need to be attractive to effectively dispense service. So, giving primacy to Harris’s looks in a public setting was wrong, even if the intent was to talk a friend up for the next big thing in her career. Not a flagrant foul given Obama’s credentials, but you never know who might say something awkward next (hint: Mr. I-don’t-think-so).
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Madan
October 23, 2016
Amit Joki: I have a friendly question/suggestion, so don’t bite as I proceed: let’s just suppose there is indeed no stalking in the Dhanush films. Even so, nobody is asking for them to be banned, right? All that has been suggested is that filmmakers voluntarily stop depicting the guy stalks-woman says no-still stalks-gets a no-conquers her pattern which glorifies stalking. So why do you take criticism of Dhanush films on this aspect so personally? Of course, you have the choice to do so, everybody has the right to make whatever choices as long as they are legal. But why, what’s the point of it all? It is that which makes you such an easy target in these debates. While I have never been a rabid fanboy of any Tamil (or other) mass heroes, I have played the part of annoying fanboy when it comes to certain musicians in the past. I’d like to believe I have moved on though some Rahman fans in these parts may insist otherwise :P. Believe you me, it’s counterproductive and you ain’t getting a penny from Dhanush for your valiant efforts. And even if you are indeed right, you can go about making the point without playing this tiresome naanga-neenga for-against game which these heated debates about anything to do with the Tamil film industry seem to degenerate into. In fact, you might make more headway if you coolly and carefully question people with logic rather than getting worked up.
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Amit Joki
October 23, 2016
By the way, have shot half way through my second short film which has a subtle message with regards to what we’ve been discussing in here.
I need 2 girls to say straight to camera, around 16 to 18 years of age, two harmless dialogues each.
They would have to just speak facing the camera. The footage can then be sent to me and I will edit things out. The dialogues are plain
If any good Samaritan is capable of helping me out, please do ping me at amitjoki@hotmail.com
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Madan
October 23, 2016
@ Thoushaltnot: There is clearly a different view and I am not alone in holding it.
I rest my case saying that if Obama intended to put all the focus on Harris’ looks, he wouldn’t have saved it for last. Or is it really so difficult for people to give even Obama the benefit of doubt? Good luck with that, is all I can say. At least America has a high enough percentage of women to avert a Trump presidency, which I hope will be the case.
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ThouShaltNot
October 23, 2016
Yes, a movie is just a movie (pure pozhudhu pOkku). A hero is merely a hero (except when he doesn’t turn Thalaivar and loom large). A heroine is merely a heroine (except when she is not a prop or we are not busy erecting temples for her). A spade is just a spade. And a delusion is just a delusion. Let’s not over analyse.
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ThouShaltNot
October 24, 2016
🙂 Couple of structural mess-ups in 2 of my comments: 1. except -> i.e. 2. response to Madan posted to wrong thread instead of to “Remo”
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Uma
October 24, 2016
Ok call me Classist. Let’s say, have seen someone like Dhanush from Aaduklam (with Kyli and underpants showing) 2 or three times at busstop in total. ( I might have even laughed about some goofy stuff he did) He talks about Seval sandai and all that stuff that I dont have any clue about and then one fine day comes and tells me that he loves me and whatnot, I would be creeped by that. On the other hand, let ‘s say, I met someone like Dhanush decently dressed at a wedding, talking some sense that I can relate to and us bantering, flirtnig a bit and if I do happen to see him at a busstop a few weeks later, I would be interested in talking to him, might even want to get to know him. Why should this be equated to class and why this is so difficult for some of the males commenting here to understand?
In the movie “Oro Naal oru Koothu”, the love story between the lead pair (though the male lead looked ok looking compared to the female lead, atleast to me) seemed very realistic inspite of their socio-economic difference since they had so many other common factors going on for them. You know that it can occur in real life to anyone. In fact, I was hoping they would end up together inspite of all their insecurities related to their socio-economic difference.
Have any of the males commenting here had to deal with unwanted attention from females with whom you have nothing in common and are just plain unrelatable to you, like say people from a different social strata like a pal kaari, pookari or a random female whom you never remember seeing anywhere before? Let’s say some of them misinterpret yourr polite smiles or hellos into pure loveeee and shower attention upon you and stalk you? How would that feel?
When most of the females have had to deal with this atleast at some point in their life in India and then have to deal with these shitty movies that show over and over that this sort of unrealistic stuff is possible for these soup boys, it is high time that this behavior/attitude of our film industry is called out.
If class and looks have nothing to do with love/atttraction, why do our male stars feel the need to underscore that females fall for them inspite of their sumar looks or their darker complexion with songs like “karupu than enaku pudicha coloru” or lines like “Un karupa eduthu appidiye poosikanum.” I cant remember any heroes singing such songs or mouthing such lines about any sumar looking female lead. Dont blame the females for being classist or having any expectation at all as to whom they want to be attracted to.
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Madan
October 24, 2016
“Dont blame the females for being classist or having any expectation at all as to whom they want to be attracted to.” – Not blaming, just asking that it be acknowledged. So the element of classism is there and cannot be ignored. And I refuse to be drawn anymore into the discussion of what kind of man a woman would find desirable as that has no relevance to how stalking may or may not be depicted in films. The issue is of consent and even if you are hell bent on deviating from it, I am not as it is the most important and powerful argument we have. As the Pink dialogue goes, no means no. Period. And when a man is shown to pursue a woman after getting ‘no’ several times and is depicted as a hero for doing so, that is unacceptable. Whether the man is handsome, debonair Maddy or unkempt, uncouth SK has zero relevance as far as this aspect is concerned. What you are doing now is the mirror image of what the apologists for Dhanush/SK indulge in – adding qualifiers and riders to the word no. It is unnecessary. It may sound cold and boring but the law is supposed to be that way and wouldn’t work if it wasn’t.
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Rahini David
October 24, 2016
Madan: I am not a huge fan of offence being taken when none was intended. I want to read a few more commentary about Obama’s compliments to this woman misfiring and then decide my opinion on it. I wrote a reasonably long piece of paying compliments and how they often misfire, the very fact that I did not include compliments to looks being a way of undermining the ambitions and/or achievements of women shows that the thought never crossed MY mind.
Thank you for letting me know.
New Female Commenters: Sometimes when very few female commenters keep going on and on about how traumatic stalking can begin to seem as if stalking is not really THAT big a deal and a couple of us are just making it big for some personal publicity. It becomes difficult after a while. I felt really glad that a few new voices joined this time. As Madan was saying, some of it was not phrased really that perfectly, but I really got what you were saying.
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Rahini David
October 24, 2016
Madan: The women who are basically saying “If Maddy then OK” are basically saying that they reserve the right to say yes to a date with Maddy even if they did not say yes to a date with Dhanush just the previous day. This isn’t about stalking at all.
I have refused a couple of marriage proposals from stalkers and coffee dates from non-stalkers who just wanted to ask me out. I refused because I refused everybody’s advances irrespective of their desirability. I was a new girl in the city and I did not have a safety system around me, not even a mobile phone. I kept to myself as I intended to keep safe.
After I got married and became the agony aunt to random Beta men, I found that Beta men hate Alpha women just because Alpha women were attracted to Alpha men. And when the men get offensive, the women get defensive. I agree that the discussion became diluted because of the discussion became about desirability and it is only tangentially related to stalking which is basically about choice. But the women here are not saying they want to be stalked by Maddy. They are saying they will talk to him, even if they just met him that minute and that they reserve the right to do so.
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Pravin J Kalyan
October 24, 2016
His fan club of children are the surprise factor – went to the movie b’cos my kid was very clear she wants to see this movie in the theater …we were just sitting there bored and enjoyed the kid having a nice time and enjoying SK’s screen presence and he final review ” SK has done good “….What say ? Was thinking May be my parents would have been in the same stage when we as a kids liked Rajni or Kamal !!! Life has come a full cycle now ….
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Uncouth Village Youth
October 24, 2016
Back from a 5 day no-internet-holiday – and still the embers have not burned down.
In my personal opinion, Dhanush has much more sex appeal than an Aravindswamy or a Madhavan. – I like Will Smith/voted for Obama, how can I be a racist ? – Yes you can be a racist and still like Will Smith.
@Rahini : I saw what you did there – when asked about something that cannot be defended, you side stepped the question.
Telling an accomplished woman that she is pretty is not ‘reducing’ her to mere looks. You can tell a doctor you are flirting with that she is pretty. You just should not put her profession or her commitment down. He is not infatuated with her gold medal or her plus two cut off marks. That is not detrimental to feminism.
So what exactly is wrong with a sumaar moonji/vela vettiyillatha guy doing that ? If a normal guy does that he is ‘aspiring to marry up’, while a posh,suave guy can stalk women, he once met in a marriage. It also helps that directors like MR/GVM, play out their own version of porn for middle class men/women who never had the guts to love. They build up the ‘ (Upper)Middle Class Madhavans’, so that fan women could drool over them and bring in the moolah. And then, they show them winning something big in their career, later on in the movie, just in case somebody gets uncomfortable with the ‘waste guy’ persona their heroes started off with.
Nobody has any right to decide, on how another person discriminates, when it comes to their love. So all you fan girls/women, who will rather banter with Maddy types, get to keep your preferences/rights – whatever. However, you cannot frame a public discussion around your preference. And no it is not trolling,playing gotcha,what aboutery when someone highlights that.So,when I see statements like ‘ Just try to catch the conversations that happen in Saravana Stores among the puny, malnourished sales women – it would invariably be about louuuv.’ , I cringe. Madam, please visit KFC,UG Salai, Nungambakkam to check out how tweens and teens from a near by posh school talk about their ‘love’. Sofia Ashraf (rapper of Yes na Yes), in her interview with Kungumam, calls out ‘the much celebrated VTV’ ( her own words, not mine) – on the issue of stalking. So may be you all can educate her on the nuances of stalking or may be accuse her of trolling because how difficult is it to differentiate between stalking ‘required’ by the story and otherwise.
On a lighter note, don’t try flirting with any random lady doctor you visit, based on Rahini’s advice. Somebody did that in real life, and apparently it didn’t end well for the guy – read more here – http://www.news18.com/news/buzz/viral-why-it-is-hard-to-date-women-in-india-595311.html
Have any of the males commenting here had to deal with unwanted attention from females with whom you have nothing in common and are just plain unrelatable to you, like say people from a different social strata like a pal kaari, pookari or a random female whom you never remember seeing anywhere before? Let’s say some of them misinterpret yourr polite smiles or hellos into pure loveeee and shower attention upon you and stalk you? How would that feel?
Clearly you have never been on a recruitment drive to any of the engineering colleges, as a recruiter. Nor have you heard of the term gold digger – for more fun stories please check out thatstamil. But then I agree that , it’s a whole different ball game and I certainly am not playing down the risks that the women face wrt to being stalked.
Thanks for all the links and FAQs posted here . I have already read that, as mentioned in my previous comment. I was talking about the endgame – why bother with semantics and the actual meaning when you have branded me a troll :P. I’m not against the petition, or the women here who are fighting against stalking. I’m also not somebody who discovered this link a few days back and came here to pick up a fight. I’m not a SK/Dhanush fanboy, who defends his thalaivar in all online formus. But, when some directors/actors are given a pass, and others are ‘branded’ for similar transgressions, then it becomes imperative that the other side is heard. I picked on MR/GVM because they are the most celebrated directors on these pages.
What is it with feminists using cuss words and F-bombs in an otherwise, perfectly civilized conversation ? Does it make them look macho and tough ? JayMo called out some women writers , on this exact issue and was branded a MCP by many (including me), but now I’m beginning to understand his viewpoint. Call me names,brand me an MCP/MRA, but then as Michelle O said recently, “When they go low, we go high” 😛
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Rahini David
October 24, 2016
“when asked about something that cannot be defended, you side stepped the question”
Which question was side-stepped again?
So what exactly is wrong with a sumaar moonji/vela vettiyillatha guy doing that ?
None. Stalking is problematic. Soomar Moonji complimenting good lookers is not problematic. Assuming that once you give a compliment, the woman SHOULD fall in love with you is silly. If they do, good for the sumar moonji.
Nobody has any right to decide, on how another person discriminates, when it comes to their love. So all you fan girls/women, who will rather banter with Maddy types, get to keep your preferences/rights – whatever.
Yes. That is what many women here are saying. That when they give consent and so it is not stalking at all.
Thanks for all the links and FAQs posted here . I have already read that
Awesome. It REALLY appeared that you thought we were asking for bans when we weren’t.
But, when some directors/actors are given a pass, and others are ‘branded’ for similar transgressions, then it becomes imperative that the other side is heard.
We are talking about consent. We are not talking about SK’s movies being problematic BECAUSE they are SK’s movies. We are not talking about MR’s movies not being problematic BECAUSE they are MR’s movies.
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ThouShaltNot
October 24, 2016
No, it is called catharsis. They are frustrated that men in this world can be so tone-deaf. They are befuddled that seemingly reasonable men disport themselves in public with nary a regard for the female viewpoint. They are at their wit’s end that a discussion on the demerits of an issue can turn into a parade of ignorance. Normally one to be turned off, I find ToHellWithIt’s resort to profane language far less offensive and unbecoming than the use of jutting tongues to punctuate snide and sarcastic remarks!
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Rahini David
October 24, 2016
Madam, please visit KFC,UG Salai, Nungambakkam to check out how tweens and teens from a near by posh school talk about their ‘love’.
Why? Is it because you assumed that I made the comment about puny, malnourished sales women when I didn’t?
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ToHellWithIt
October 24, 2016
Madan thank you for mansplaining my thought process to me, despite my explanation of my meaning. I sure got told and I now get that we women should’ve stuck to exactly what you said we should’ve stuck to. Fangirling over Madhavan was exactly what I was doing in that post on AP. Idiot classist hypocritical femininsts not knowing what to say when or how to make a point that sticks! I hesitate to address this to you because I fear a thesis is forthcoming on how you are are correct and how I’m wrong, but some of the misrepresentation of what i said annoyed me sufficiently, I guess.
Rahini: I refuse to be defensive about anything I said – in a thread full of men lacking empathy, obfuscating things said in good faith by the women and completely politically incorrect. So no, I don’t think what I or Uma said should’ve been “phrased better”.
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Madan
October 24, 2016
“They are saying they will talk to him, even if they just met him that minute and that they reserve the right to do so.” – Of course women have the right to associate with whomsoever they choose to; personal preferences do not have to adhere to norms of social justice. The point I am again making is surely this depends not just on how Maddy looks, but how he talks, how he approaches the woman, whether he respects her space and so on. I believe this was what was implied anyway but that some of the posters got caustic in the face of provocation from UCY. Yes, I am just urging that we don’t dilute the central issue. “They like Maddy but look down on SK” is a complete red herring in any case; the issue is of consent and consent only.
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Anu Warrier
October 25, 2016
Madan, about the Obama comment: It’s problematic because it is in a professional setting. I can’t fathom how you cannot find that a mis-step. Knowing Obama from his behaviour and deportment towards women and his open support for women’s issues, I don’t think he was being patronising at all. But it was a rare mis-step on his part, and when called out, he’s man enough to apologise for not thinking his actions through. As many, many professional women know to their hazard, being called ‘pretty’ or ‘complimented’ on their looks in a professional setting is not usually a compliment at all. Where I give Obama a pass in the situation is because a) he knows her personally b) we know him through his public policy – and he’s not a man who insults/patronises/condescends to women. So a remark made thoughtlessly cannot be used to hang him. But yes, unfortunately, it needs to be pointed out to him, not because he wouldn’t have come to that conclusion himself eventually, but because otherwise, the same [sort] of people who accuse us of giving Maddy /Surya a pass and blaming Dhanush/SK for stalking will turn around and say ‘Oh, but Obama said this in public; but Trump does not get a pass for what he said in a private conversation.’
Secondly, why I think ToHellWithIt was talking about the film when she referred to ‘a person who looks like Maddy’ is because her very next sentence in that statement was [and I’m paraphrasing here being too tired to scroll up to cut and paste]: ‘I met him at the wedding, and talked to him,a nd have spent the night thinking of him.’
when a man is shown to pursue a woman after getting ‘no’ several times and is depicted as a hero for doing so, that is unacceptable. Whether the man is handsome, debonair Maddy or unkempt, uncouth SK has zero relevance as far as this aspect is concerned.
True; it doesn’t. But again – see above – the one commenter who said that about Maddy’s looks was talking about it in the context of the film. A film in which Shalini did not/i> say ‘No’ even once, much less several times.
Secondly, as Uma points out – a man whom we have seen in a social setting, have bantered with, smiled at, been friendly with, approaching us the next day in a bid to get to know us better is different from some random uncouth guy who decides he’s in love, approaches us, proposes to make us his girlfriend, and then, despite our rejection. decides he’s going to marry us and importunes us to do so. [I know that part of it is something you understand, but I’m hoping the nuance is seen by people who seem determined not to see it. In the first case, it is not stalking at all.
And once again, people, for the love of God! – if it had been Dhanush or SK or anyone else in Madhavan’s role in Alaipayuthey, I still wouldn’t consider it stalking. Because Shalini shows her interest and in no way repulses his advances. We are not pulling Dhanush/SK’s names because we hate them personally. Put Madhavan/Aravind Swamy as Remo, and I’ll call that out too – the character’s asinine behaviour doesn’t become any less egregious because the actor changes. Heck, put Amitabh Bachchan (my idol!) into this role, and I would think it horrible that he chose a role like this.
@Uncouth: My (and tonks!) thinking Dhanush has sex appeal is nothing like ‘I have a black friend’ and I find it offensive that you make that analogy. I suggest you look up the difference between stalking (without consent) and pursuit /mating (with consent). If you cannot understand there’s a difference, then there’s no point discussing this.
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Madan
October 25, 2016
ToHellWithIt: If you had been polite and given me the benefit of doubt the first time around, I wouldn’t have had to take resort to all this. But no, you snapped because it’s your birthright. Fine, so have it your way. I say it for the last time: getting angry and defensive at everyone is not going to help your cause. Already most of the guys have stopped participating in the thread and that is probably not a coincidence.
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shaviswa
October 25, 2016
Yeah….350 and this thread is still going strong. 🙂
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Madan m
October 25, 2016
@Anu: At the time I did think it was inappropriate to say that. So that is why I am confused when Rahini says she doesn’t think complimenting a woman on her appearance is wrong. You can say the situations are different but understand that men don’t infuse so much nuance in normal conversation. You think it is men’s way of shoving their privilege down the throat of the other gender but that is how we talk among ourselves. We don’t take offence, we just give it right back. So let’s either have a set of consistent rules. Or if that is seen as too obtrusive then depending on the context give people some leeway. Which brings me to the point about Maddy. I already got you that the context was specific to AP but I still don’t think it is very apt to mention looks. Why? because it objectifies men. No worries, we know women size up our looks too but it is women who have protested their being objectified. Think about it, wouldn’t a man be labelled sexist or discriminating if he publicly admitted to preferring fair skinned women? No he wouldn’t, the women would let him go? Yes you may have your preferences in looks but it’s better to not flaunt them in public. That is my limited point.
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Sifter
October 25, 2016
I am not with those that say Raanjhanaa is okay because it is a movie about a ‘stalker.’ That maybe the case, but the Director has gone on record to say that that is how the small town boys behave. Do small town boys threaten or try to take their lives because the ‘object of their obsession’ doesn’t return the favour? So, the interesting part is only that he does not ‘stalk her’ in the usual manner, but tries to get her to reciprocate by emotionally blackmailing her. Yes, the method is different, but it only goes to prove that the Director is a little more intelligent to know what appeals to the ‘middle class’ crowd as well.
Alaipayuthe made me uncomfortable. Again, it may be ‘benign stalking,’ but it was that all the same to me. I haven’t seen any other movies being discussed here.
But one thing is bothering me with all these comments that go on and on accusing people of being a classist or an elitist when movie after movie shows that the guy is dark skinned, a rowdy, who wears the fact that he is one and wears it on his sleeve like some proud credential, he does not or cannot speak English, he does not go to school, he does the Tasmac ‘words of wisdom’ dance, does not work for a living, yet claims that he has the entitlement to a fair skinned, educated but loosu girl, who is shown as not even having a pea in her brain, who has to be taught the error of her ways, subjugated to ‘love’ him back, and has to finally say bye to all her education and richness why? Because… The fact that the reverse never happens in our movies is not acknowledged or accepted. That is Entitlement in all caps!
This kinda refusal is like hitting the damn wall till you bleed and no wonder people give up after a particular point.
Why is it that we always are bleeding hearts to such type of boys or the portrayal of them on screen? We go on and on and talk about the reasons why they become such pathetic human beings. We find some kinship with such ‘underdogs.’ Goddess, the society made them this way. It is their upbringing, it is their way of life, it is their struggle, it is their escapism where they attach their ‘loyalty’ to their stars to worship and follow their path. It is not their fault, they are forced to treat women like that by the society, they do not know better, all they know is doing everything in their arsenal to make their ‘object of obsession’ surrender…by any means. Why? Because….Women! Now, I am suitable reduced to a sobbing person full of empathy over such boys and such portrayals of such boys on screen!!
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Kay
October 25, 2016
“Normally one to be turned off, I find ToHellWithIt’s resort to profane language far less offensive and unbecoming than the use of jutting tongues to punctuate snide and sarcastic remarks!”
Hear, hear! Those condescending smileys are far more offensive.
Madan, to understand ToHellWithIt’s reaction, you should scroll through the entire comments section and see how patronising the comments are from the beginning. Anyone would lose their temper at that point of time. You guys can try to empathise with us and say, yeah we know how it feels, but you know what? You don’t. Not till you actually go through the experience of having someone follow you wherever you go, corner you at inopportune moments when no one is around or then threaten that he’ll drink a pesticide if you don’t reciprocate his feelings. The mental trauma that a girl goes through at that point is not something a guy can relate with. So, if you find some of us flipping out at sarcastic smileys at the end of patronising comments, then know that we are at the end of the tether trying to reason with you all.
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Sifter
October 25, 2016
I am not with those that say Raanjhanaa is okay because it is a movie about a ‘stalker.’ That maybe the case, but the Director has gone on record to say that that is how the small town boys behave. Do small town boys threaten or try to take their lives because the ‘object of their obsession’ doesn’t return the favour? So, the interesting part is only that he does not ‘stalk her’ in the usual manner, but tries to get her to reciprocate by emotionally blackmailing her. Yes, the method is different, but it only goes to prove that the Director is a little more intelligent to know what appeals to the ‘middle class’ crowd as well.
Alaipayuthe made me uncomfortable. Again, it may be ‘benign stalking,’ but it was that all the same to me. I haven’t seen any other movies being discussed here.
But one thing is bothering me with all these comments that go on and on accusing people of being a classist or an elitist when movie after movie shows that the guy is dark skinned, a rowdy, who wears the fact that he is one and wears it on his sleeve like some proud credential, he does not or cannot speak English, he does not go to school, he does the Tasmac ‘words of wisdom’ dance, does not work for a living, yet claims that he has the entitlement to a fair skinned, educated but loosu girl, who is shown as not even having a pea in her brain (probably it is the piss in it), who has to be taught the error of her ways, subjugated to ‘love’ him back, and has to finally say bye to all her education and richness why? Because… The fact that the reverse never happens in our movies is not acknowledged or accepted. That screams Entitlement, the women be damned!
This kinda refusal is like hitting the damn wall till you bleed and no wonder people give up after a particular point.
Why is it that we always are bleeding hearts to such type of boys or the portrayal of them on screen? We go on and on and talk about the reasons why they become such pathetic human beings. We find some kinship with such ‘underdogs.’ Goddess, the society made them this way. It is their upbringing, it is their way of life, it is their struggle, it is their escapism where they attach their ‘loyalty’ to their stars to worship and follow their path. It is not their fault, they are forced to treat women like that by the society, they do not know better, all they know is doing everything in their arsenal to make their ‘object of obsession’ surrender…by any means. Why? Because….Women! Now, I am suitably reduced to a sobbing person full of empathy over such boys and such portrayals of such boys on screen!!
I have encountered many women not giving any thought to such portrayals, because you have to leave your brain behind to watch such movies. I’ve always wondered what ‘leaving your brain behind’ means. Have encountered many a women not willing to talk about such things in movies or in real life because it makes them uncomfortable, a little shameful, a little alienated from the boys club! Really? It is like head to the wall…only hitting it again on the same side; the first in anger, the second time with anguish.
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MV
October 25, 2016
Uncouth Village Youth: That Saravana Stores puny ladies comment was from me. My bad, I guess I did not articulate my point well – it was again not about class, but how impressionable women (not just men) in their twenties/teens/tweens are also taking a fancy to being stalked. So their “No” could come across as “but-this-helps-my-image -with-my-peers” kind of araimanasu refusal. And then the definitions of stalking, consent, etc become blurry.
To be very honest with you – I agree with your point on how both AP and Remo have stalkers as their heroes, but one is idealised, whereas the other is called out. I have been racking my brains trying to come up with some good counter, in vain, to defend or justify this. Then it struck me – why not accept it to be true!
And also admit to the pick and choose mentality and ingrained biases that we have – vellaya irukkuravan poi sollamaataan, podavai kattina ponnu gunavathi, Arvind Swamy villain Sid Abimanyu aa irundhalum avarudhan hero etc. But adhukkaga Stalking cannot be side-stepped illiya.
Remo has happened at the time when we witnessed a gory aftermath of stalking. (Again, why not when Vinothini died years back from an acid attack? Valid question – but better late than never la! ). Even Sivakarthikeyen will agree on the importance of “timing” right? 🙂
You make very valid points. Very convincing (atleast to me). But probably stalking is something like PKS pazhamozhi – anubavikkanum…aarayakoodadhu. 🙂
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tonks
October 25, 2016
Already most of the guys have stopped participating in the thread and that is probably not a coincidence
I stopped counting backwards at Kay’s comment, Madan, since I’m not sure of his gender (though I think it’s male) but it’s 15 male to 7 female comments till then.
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sameoldnewbie
October 25, 2016
Iswarya – Fantastic media appearances and video! Great to know about the stats collection initiative too – will keep an eye out for it.
Akhilan/Madan – I can see that Akhilan has somewhat succeeded where I have failed (to get through my pov) and I am glad some sort of peace is now achieved on the Serena topic. Feminism – acknowledge that misconceptions of it have taken stronghold in popular imagination and it is an uphill battle to defeat those as well as the actual issues (big sigh). Don’t want to hijack this thread carrying on the feminism debate (because I fear it will go nowhere) so will leave it at that.
About the censoring and rating – As HORRIBLE as this sounds, I wonder if we will see quicker change if we could modify the tax exemption rule (in TN) slightly (i.e positive incentivisation) for a certain amount of time like 2 years or so. I think there is tax exemption (12% on ticket sales?) in TN if the film is named in Tamil. Maybe they should change it – name any name you want but make it anti-stalking and pro-female (once a consensus has been reached between activitists and cine industry as to what that is). Might force out some new creative rom-com (and other) themes. Would be an interesting social experiment at the very least.
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Kay
October 25, 2016
Another article in the The Hindu about stalking in Telugu movies
http://m.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/until-she-says-yes/article9266537.ece
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Madan
October 25, 2016
@ Kay: I cannot ever completely understand what it is like to be a woman because I am not and nor would I claim to be able to. With that said, the onus is still on you to make it easier nevertheless for those of us who are prepared to listen to you to relate to your problems. I don’t think lumping all men into a general “you all” is very helpful at all in that regard. And please don’t tell me women are incapable of being patronizing or of taking advantage of being in a position of power (say when they have a male reportee at work). So while our problems are different and most likely not as bad as yours, we have problems too. I have once before had a female manager throw the F bomb at me when I was pulling 14 hours a day on a special assignment when the least she could have done was well stay the fuck out of it until I had it under control (which I eventually did). What should I have done, thrown another bomb right back at her? 😉
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Madan
October 25, 2016
“The fact that the reverse never happens in our movies is not acknowledged or accepted.” – Yes, I pointed this out earlier too. Also that in Drishyam when an upper class stalker/eventual rapist was shown, he was shown to be completely evil with zero irredeemable qualities. Upper class is always on the wrong side according to the movies. Even Pink couldn’t resist casting the molester as an entitled and arrogant upper class brat but at least it was made more interesting by casting the women as urban and independent (whereas in Drishyam the cable operator’s family is shown to be simple and traditional which is blatantly playing into stereotypes).
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Kay
October 25, 2016
“With that said, the onus is still on you to make it easier nevertheless for those of us who are prepared to listen to you to relate to your problems”
My first reaction on seeing that statement was, why, for crying out loud, would I do that? But then, since you asked, I’m going to explain one more time. If you see, from the beginning, Anu, Iswarya and Rahini were trying to explain their POV patiently but then, towards the middle of the thread, the tone of the conversations changed and someone said, sensible feminist is an oxymoron, and we are playing the woman card! Do you expect us to still take the “onus” on ourselves to maje ourselves understood? Why? So that someone can accuse us of emotional blackmail or melodrama? It was unfortunate that you joined the conversation during this time and with your views, you had to bear the brunt of all that rage.
And, do you want to talk about workplace discrimination? We need to start a separate thread for that. I’m not saying condescension is characteristic only of men and not women. What you are talking about is abuse of power, which is done by both males and females.
How would you feel if I say, in addition to all the domestic and social problems that we face, we also have to prove ourselves twice as much as the men in a work environment? If I say my male colleagues get paid higher than me for doing three quarters of the work that I do? That I have to put in regular 16 hour days, all of that spent working, while the guys go for smoke breaks and lunch breaks, and still I’m not taken seriously during appraisals?
Oh wait, I think I just played the woman card here.
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Kay
October 26, 2016
I think I have wasted enough space here and, come to think of it, Madan, I think we are arguing the same things from our gender coloured angles. So, I’m bowing out of this conversation.
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uniquebluerose
October 26, 2016
I seriously can’t get…why the concept of no cannot be understood.
and why is MR/GVM or rather the heros or male leads of Alai…, VA and VTV being called out here…..
In Alaipayuthey they meet at marriage….
He comments his friend is caught….(matikittan) and she defends her friend and then adds that you look likeable but never mind
I think this translates to she is interested.
Sorry I don’t think he was loser…..he is Engineer whether on merit or paid seat he tries to set up company and does seem to achieve a breakthrough though not during marriage
In VA….he proposes and she doesn’t refuse….
or rather he tires to openly flirt with all silly actions and she initiates the conversation…
may be not realistic but definitely not stalking….she even smiles for the record…and as per the dialogues she notices him in her college cultures
and he says to her that he will pursue her and she accepts that …..see consent right???
and yes he is loser at this stage but doesn’t he do some kind of business and finish the home his dad wanted to build or something like that…..
The whole movie did hero worship Surya but they didn’t show him like some moral police kind of guy who is correcting the heroine who wants to study by stalking her…..(stopping her from going abroad) and drinking and then getting her by being the loser all the time or till the end of the movie
That guy had other priorities in life….not only thituthfying the high class beautiful women…..
as for VTV well i for one will call it completely staking and nor does he get the girl in the end and sorry I don’t thin he was loser because if making a film or becoming a director is loser….you way off the mark dude!!!!
and even before Jessie comes he is focused and trough out he is doesn’t he cut a call in middle of work and stop her form eloping and coming to him because he is working
and as for his going to Kerala or Alleppey well yes that was pursuit because once she see him she invites him home….
I don’t think a stalker to whom a girl is going to say no would be invited
and yes I enjoyed all the above movies and quite like some other movies of MR and GVM also so shoot me…
but yes I hate movies which promote stalking…which show macho-ism by showing women their place…..which shows heroes showing women how to dress like Tamil ponnu….movies in which you drink like a loser when a women leaves you ….but of course you can leave her for ur family or whatever the hell your story is
oh yes I esp hate that which shows you have all the right to decide just by seeing the pretty face that I want her…..but they don’t have the right to do the same ….your drunken rowdy or loser but still you have great heart….
even if you are not all that are rich handsome person…its our choice we approve or not and then the next thing happen….
and yes pls avoid the girl is mine and winning the girl kind of talk nor are she your property and nor is she some trophy to be won by hook or crook.
I may not have expressed it well …..but then I have said all that I want.
Ishwarya, Rahini and Anu warrier hats of too you….and other also MANK etc great job…..
you guys have so patiently written your points so well wish I could write as well as you.
KayKay sir……you are mind blowing……can i get your number 😛 …..would like to know you more
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rothrocks
October 26, 2016
@ Kay No, I completely agree that your problems at the workplace are much worse and I already said so (but with a different emphasis:D ). But especially because women face these problems in rising through the ranks,perhaps the expectation was that those women who make it to the top would provide a new leadership. But it was an unreasonable expectation, I guess, because the two genders do have similarities especially, yes,in how they use power. And my point therefore is patronizing behaviour could also be attributed to the individual. I apologize to anybody who found my comments patronizing but I was not mansplaining. I am an equal opportunity offender. 😛 I am polite but I am human and flawed and sometimes I may come across as condescending but it is no intentional. It is just who I am. There have been a few occasions before that guys on the net called me a prick so make of that what you will.
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Rahini David
October 26, 2016
RothRocks: I meant that compliments to looks don’t INHERENTLY become insults just because they are about looks. I did not comment on the Obama issue. I only said that I am holding in judgment until I read a few articles on it. But this thread is so long and it is a side issue anyway.
On Dhanush and SK: They are pretty good looking guys. They chose the market that has the most demand. Basically one more vote on the Anu and Tonks side.
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MANK
October 26, 2016
Rahini, Dhanush is a pretty good looking guy ?. you are not familiar with Anupama chopra , are you? 🙂
http://www.hindustantimes.com/movie-reviews/anupama-chopra-s-review-raanjhanaa/story-YtgjIVJN4ofceEzlI0giYP.html
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Jaga_Jaga
October 26, 2016
“They are pretty good looking guys” – Dhanush and SK?
Really? I am fine with SK being good looking. I am fine with Dhanush being a good actor. But Dhanush being a good-looking guy??? Cutting across all civilizations, all classes and communities, if one takes a poll, I sincerely suspect if Dhanush would win the “is he good-looking” poll! Very interesting!
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MANK
October 26, 2016
uniquebluerose, Its nothing to do with people not getting anything. Many here are simply trolling or baiting others for a good time around
I am not talking about some one like Madan. what he says may or may not be agreeable to everybody , but what he is saying is very much from the faith of his convictions. which is not the case with everybody
That’s why i dont bother to comment here anymore . whatever needs to be said about the issue has already been made crystal clear by a host of commenters.
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Madan
October 27, 2016
@ Rahini: Yeah, I got you. I just used your comment to launch some general thoughts about when it is or isn’t ok to compliment a woman on her looks. As a matter of fact, I strictly avoid it except when it comes to my wife because if I didn’t compliment her, the marriage wouldn’t last very long, lol. So the reason I avoid it is that I am afraid that a well meaning word of praise may get misconstrued and I will get into trouble I don’t need so why bother anyway. This was sort of covered in that Rubin Report link I had posted earlier. It is always like this: the ones who want to flout social norms or laws are going to do so in spite of their existence whereas these rules can become stifling for the moderates who go about life quietly and peacefully.
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Madan
October 27, 2016
@ Jaga_Jaga: Dhanush doesn’t look half bad when he’s clean shaven. In any case, it’s not like the handsomeness quotient of Tamil actors has historically been sky high (I mean if you compare them to REAL lookers like Dharam or Gregory Peck or Dev Anand). If Dhanush did not intentionally put on an unkempt look, he would be able to turn into chocolatey romantic hero also and he has the acting chops to pull it off.
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Rahini David
October 27, 2016
MANK, Jaga_Jaga: Yes, I have read that article before. I guess it is very subjective but I could not see any of the guys Madan mentioned as good-looking. Certainly not in a visceral level.
So a short set of pics to explain what type I like.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
October 27, 2016
Good one Rahini !
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Udhay Sankar
October 30, 2016
I know neeya naana is a bit infamous here, but tonight’s episode is worth a watch.
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praneshp
October 31, 2016
Ishwarya and others: To be shocked more, I suggest watching Neeya Naana from Oct 30 (watch free on hotstar.com). It was an episode about one sided love, and some of the things the guys said were scary (independent of how the rest of the show went).
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tonks
November 16, 2016
So we went to watch a Malayalam college movie last night, Anantham (mainly because a teen in the family had cleared the first audition for the role of the character called Varun but lost out in the second. They had auditioned about 500 college students for the roles and all the main characters were new comers)
The story was ok, a little clichéd perhaps, not exactly another ‘Classmates’ but better than the average college movie. And some things stood out (for me) gloriously. There was not just an utter lack of misogyny, but an episode that stood out for celebrating feminism. The engineering college girls and boys go on a trip, and in Goa, some of the guys go in search of a party. They find that some girls in the trip are already in the shack and these ladies enthusiastically lead them to a place where drinks are served. When one of the guys acts half surprised that the girls are more forward in going in search of drinks and a party, another guy criticizes him saying, “So you think girls should be confined to the four walls of a room? They can’t have fun? That makes you a sexist”. A similar dialogue is repeated a little later when they get caught. The episode is treated with light humour as is most of the movie. But it warmed my heart to know that such a movie has been a hit with young people and families. And rue as people may the older golden era of Malayalam movies, I can’t help but feel happy that we’ve evolved to outgrow misogyny in our movies. Perhaps like Anu once said, it was the audience rejection of such movies or a newer generation of movie makers with more modern sensibilities. Whatever it is, it’s certainly nice to see movies without cringing.
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