Just read on the net that the film that was Mani Ratnam’s first hit — the first film that we can now identify as “a Mani Ratnam film,” with all the auteurist implications of the term — turned 30 this month. I haven’t seen ‘Mouna Raagam’ in a while, so I don’t know how I’ll respond to it today, but two aspects of the film are certainly still worth cherishing. One, the way the Revathy character is written, as a real, warts-and-all woman. And two, Ilayaraja’s timeless score.
Here are two relevant excerpts from the chapter about this film (which was originally titled ‘Divya’) in my book, ‘Conversations with Mani Ratnam.’
RANGAN: One of my favourite scenes from the film is when Divya is sitting by the tulasi plant – that dramatic top-angle shot – and her sister-in-law (the only one who understands what Divya is going through, for she too has recently faced this situation) comes to take her in for her wedding night. Divya pleads to be left alone, wondering how she can be expected to do something like that with a man she doesn’t know. I’m probably generalising, but this level of inquiry into a woman’s psyche is not something you’d expect to find in a young male director.
RATNAM: The basis for the entire film was just that one thought. Divya was first written as a short story… In our society, we bring up girls with all possible restrictions – with regard to clothes, with regard to talking with boys – and then suddenly, one day, we push them into a room with a strange man and ask them to start living with him. We educate these girls, expose them to the world, and yet, we expect them to toe the line in this matter. And however understanding the man is, the fact remains that he just wants to get his hands on her. So it is a huge process for a woman who’s able to think for herself. The film came out of this first night scene, and the short story is only about this first night. All the things she says later – kambilipoochi maadhiri [that his touch feels creepy], and all that – are actually about this night.
RANGAN: So in the short story, the man has his way with her that night (unlike in the film, where Mohan waits patiently for Revathy to come around).
RATNAM: Yeah, the short story was only that. It was not planned as a film at that point. Only after I wrote the story did I realise I could base a film on it. So I took a month off between the long schedule gaps of Pallavi Anupallavi, when I had nothing else to do, and wrote the script of Divya.
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RANGAN: Divya’s plight is exquisitely brought out by Ilayaraja’s background score. What is your involvement with this process? Do you sit with your composers for each scene and tell them what you want?
RATNAM: It’s your film. You have to be with them – otherwise how do you let them know what you have in mind? Ilayaraja is amazing with background scores. He is so good, so fantastic. He sees the movie once, then puts the reel on while he’s scoring, and as the reel is playing, he jots down a word here and a word there that are cues for him. And when the reel is over, he sits and writes his score. That’s it. He knows where the music should come, where it should finish, and what kind of score it should be, and as he finishes writing, his musicians are already copying their parts of the score and are ready to perform. He works at that speed. So if you want to say something, you have to say it.
For example, when Karthik makes his entry, the shots are bleached. The camera is handheld – PC was lying low on a bed sheet to get the low-angle walking-in shot and the rest of us were pulling the sheet, PC and the camera. The scene has a Spanish feel to it, like a Western. That’s all you need to whisper into Ilayaraja’s ear, and he would give it that kind of colour. He would convert it into that kind of tone. And then, when he finishes writing and plays it for the first time, when he conducts the score with the reel playing, you see the marriage between the music and the scene, and invariably it’s fantastic. But if there’s something specific that you want to say, you have to tell him right then, as he is watching the reel. Otherwise it’s gone. By the time you say Jack Robinson, it’s over. The scoring is over. It’s too expensive to go back and correct it. But he’s so good. He knows precisely what the soul of the scene is, and he is able to support it.
Rahini David
August 25, 2016
This is the most exciting part in a pretty exciting book. Come to think about it, it would have worked terrifically as a short. This was a time that Tamil magazines were full of short stories and the visual medium was not. They had to pad it to make it into a movie and now people just shrug this off as a retelling of Nenjathai Killatheay. The original was nothing like the Nenjathai Killatheay template.
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Shyam
August 25, 2016
Wasn’t Idhayakovil a hit too and that it came out a year prior to this ?
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
August 25, 2016
Its incredible to know that the Karthik segment was added later. In the good old days there was this half hour program on DD called ‘Thirai Malar’ where snippets of films would be shown and we’d be salivating all week to watch this show. The Karthik sequence must have been shown umpteen times on it.
I still recall the first time I saw the film. I was dragged by my seafaring father way past my bedtime to make the rounds of the theatres in Madras.
A ticket for a hit film wasnt to be had for love or money. There werent many entertainment options in those days.
Me, my father and mother finally descended on Little Anand .
There were 5 people in the theatre including the aforementioned trio.
Looking at the poster we didnt know that Karthik was there in the film so as Equity analysts would call it, it was a positive earnings surprise.
The film picked up much later on word of mouth publicity.
https://thezolazone.wordpress.com/2016/08/15/cartoon-rio-bravo-usain-bolt-claims-all-time-record-third-100-m-olympic-gold/
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
August 25, 2016
In a lighter vein, two of my classmates reminiscing about the movie :
(Wet behind the ears classmate) : “Mohan yevvalavu understandingaa irukkaan”
(Worldly wise classmate) : “Machee yenakkum indha maadhri figure kedaichchaaa NAANUM rooomba understandingaaa iruppayn”
This REALLY happenned !
https://thezolazone.wordpress.com/2016/08/08/countdown-to-rio-his-name-means-greyhound-in-russian/
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
August 25, 2016
I think we’re looking at a comments explosion here. Will those overtake the IR or Kabaali comments record ? Only time will tell…….
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Dinesh Babu K N
August 25, 2016
Now you have given me a reason to download it sir.
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gm
August 25, 2016
Thanks for the book you wrote, Mr. Rangan. I Went to same school Mr. Ratnam did. Go Besant Alumni. Would like Mr. Ratnam to remake the new movie Mr. Church, Eddie Murphy role with Mr. Rajinikanth in Tamil:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4196848/
Thanks for this blog.
Gan
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shaviswa
August 25, 2016
Revathy’s character was the primary reason behind the success of the movie. The way she teases her brother, the way she dances in the rain to avoid the alliance arranged by her father, her monologue to Mohan trying to convince him not to marry her, subsequently her anger at having been made to marry him and the way she spites him every time Mohan tries to get close to her, the kambili poochi dialogue, and then the transformation. Fantastic role and Revathy did full justice to it (despite her screeching dialogue delivery in emotional scenes).
Ilaiyaraja and Revathy made a good film into a fantastic film.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 25, 2016
Actually, Idaya Kovil was his first ‘hit’.
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venkatesh
August 25, 2016
For me Mouna Raagam is really Illayaraja’s background score. Mute the film and play it and i can tell you the score or run the score and i can tell you the film.
An awesome awesome film.
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Aadhy
August 25, 2016
Divya, though clearly evincing disinterest in the marriage, still couldn’t go against the system, because maybe that’s how far a woman could go in the 80s, even if she had her own mind. Fair enough. But is it the same reason why Mohan, being the well-read gentleman that he is shown to be, still goes ahead to marry Divya despite her clear disinterest being explained in bold words? Well-read, priviliged gentlemen also hesitating to break the system of arranged marriage, because it was the 80s? Or was it that Mohan was genuinely interested in Divya? which actually makes him all the more creepier due to his disrespect for her consent. I just couldn’t buy this plot point in an otherwise undoubtedly fabulous movie.
And what’s with calling crapfest Raja rani. as the new age Mouna Ragam and all that.
” We educate these girls, expose them to the world, and yet, we expect them to toe the line in this matter.”
This is what Satyaraj precisely does to Nayantara in her marriage to Arya, and people(especially a lot of females in my age) hail him as the ideal dad, progressive dad etc. Divya may like Karthik not only because he’s charming/borderline creepy and all that, but also because he is a kind of rebel himself and has a strong mind. Both are in a way trying to fight their way against the norms which could explain what Divya might have liked in him. And why does Nayantara like Jai? Because he’s innocent and that’s cute? Well, meh.
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Raj Balakrishnan
August 25, 2016
Idhaya Koil hardly looks like a Mani Ratnam film. His standard touches, sharp lines, camera work etc. Are not present. It looks more like one of those standard mic mohan-kovai thambi films of the 80s. In that sense Mouna Ragam was the first ‘Mani Ratnam’ film.
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blurb
August 25, 2016
brangan – loved your live chat. I just couldn’t condense my question into a small facebook comment, so here goes 🙂
There are a few movies of this kind. The girl (for various reasons) does not accept the man she marries as her husband, but over time falls in love with him because he is a nice guy. Nenjathai Killadhe, Andha Yezhu Naatkal, Hum Dil De Chuke Sanam, Mouna Raagam e.t.c.
But it makes me wonder — are there movies where the marriage just doesn’t work out despite the husband being ultra nice? It makes me wonder if we always have to make the spouse a dracula to justify the divorces.
I can think of Kabhi Alvida Naa Kehna. Rani never really loves Abhishek — he is a very nice guy in the movie. And this, I know, was a point of contention for many. It is believed that Kajol did not want to play that character because she didn’t get why the Rani character would not be happy with Abhishek. I remember, in the Koffee with Karan show, she said something like “if the guy is nice, you should make an effort.” Personally, Rani and Abhishek didn’t work for me either.
Thoongavanam maybe a counter example? But then again, the story is not about their relationship, and we don’t even know why they broke up.
Avvai Shanmukhi? Nah, Meena’s the dracula, Kamal’s the nice guy. And they get back together in the end. (I love the Mrs. Doubtfire version — the divorce, and them never getting back together, but still shown to respect each other. Just so beautiful.)
Oh, Nerukku Ner? Nah, Raghuvaran cheated on her, no? Yes, see, there needs to be a sound reason all the time. (And they also get back together).
So, there’s an Indian version of The Parent Trap, no? Why do the couple break-up? If it is similar to the Lindsay Lohan version, it might be a good example of “it just didn’t work out — they weren’t right for each other.” But then, they do get back together.
I am really blanking out now. I don’t know… thoughts?
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shaviswa
August 25, 2016
I don’t think Mani Ratnam is too proud of Idhaya Kovil. He has worked on it only to ensure that he had something to work on while waiting for a break to make his kind of movie.
Mani Ratnam got noticed as a director first time with Mouna Ragam. Idhaya Kovil was better known as Motherland Pictures films – their films were huge hits thanks to Ilaiyaraja. Mohan used to feature in almost all their films.
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n
August 25, 2016
I don’t see the fuss about Mouna Ragam. It was just Mani copying the genius of Mahendran’s “Nenjathai Killathae”. The disgruntled newly married Suhasini was Revathi, and Mohan the moody lover was played in reverse by (a masterfully ebullient) Karthik. The patient husband Prathap Pothen role was by Mohan. Mahendran’s film was a cinematic masterpiece of emotions, gently spoken dialogues (again a directorial style blatantly lifted by Mani from Mahendran) looking into young girl’s psyche with beautiful musings on love and marriage. Mani’s attempt was and remains a cheaply disappointing copy of a classic just with the adman’s frills tacked on.
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Madan
August 25, 2016
Thanks for sharing that excerpt. Amazing how much attention Mani Ratnam paid to what type of BGM was going to accompany which scene. When the director gets involved so much and cares that much about the final product, it helps the maestro too to deliver what the director wants. Which has always been Ilayaraja’s refrain – that his job is to satisfy the director. Also did not know that Mouna Ragam originated from a short story.
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Madan
August 25, 2016
Here it is. It’s actually the fight scene and not EXACTLY the Karthik entry scene (though that is where the hero makes the entry Tamil cinema-style). Starts at 3:20, the guitar chords.
Maybe because I haven’t watched Westerns very much at all, I sort of needed that guitar figure to associate the scene with a Western. Otherwise, there isn’t much in the visuals that gives it away. It may be there but in a more subtle way.
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Raj
August 25, 2016
Been reading comments that why did Divya being a strong girl not able to break the system and why Mohan could not change the system… Isn’t a movie a reflection of the society? If so that’s a perfect reflection of what happens in families- how even rebels give up their cause when it comes to family emotions- Divya gives up when her Father almost dies– that is probably a good enough reason for her to change her otherwise self centered attitude..
Divya like many Mani’s lead characters [Arvind Swami in Bombay/Roja, Vijayakumar in Agni Natchatiram,SRK in Dil Se, Maddy/Shalini] are highly self centered[borderline selfish]. But then that’s how our society is – Nasser asks Arvind Swami in Bombay as to whether he thought about his sister when he was contemplating marrying the Muslim girl and his instant reply was marry her to another Muslim family– without thinking whether his sister likes that option or is practically feasible in the society they live in..All selfish arrangements to suit his need…
I feel most of MR characters are created that way and I always wondered why the bias towards that form of characterization? Is it a calculated way to move away from regular cliches or is it the way he thinks? Characters in MR movies would be termed as ” Family Criminals” in Visu movies– Remember the Perumalsamy character of Manal Kayiru being portrayed that way…
The biggest thing I liked about Divya character is the contrasts in her characterization– Have you seen a person in your life who is always consistent in their reactions and always live up to their principles? Divya being a strong girl still wants Mohan to tell her family that he doesn’t like her but probably had the guts to introduce Karthik to her family if he was alive… That’s the contrast I love about Divya’s character as that is reality told in a subtle way….
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Aadhy
August 25, 2016
Raj : I completely agree about the dichotomy in Divya’s character. It made her a real human rather than just an archetype. She went as far as she could but couldn’t escape the emotional leash her father had on her.
What I was really wondering is whether Mohan’s character would do such a thing. After all Divya had to tell him, he tells her “unna enaku romba pudichiruku”, which came across to me as in “I like you because of your outspokenness”. But I didn’t believe he would disregard the ‘what is being spoken out’ part of the outspokenness. Maybe I’m missing some character trait of him in the movie or some cultural reference. Is it a reflection of urban, educated males from that period? I don’t know. Since that’s the first scene of Mohan and whatever opinon we form about him is only from post-wedding scenes, I didn’t feel he would have done this in retrospective thought. If it was his character arc, some pre-engagement scenes on who Mohan is would’ve helped understanding him better.
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bogeygolf
August 25, 2016
After see a post started comparing -Nenjathai Kilathey NK (1980) vs Mouna Ragam MR (1986)..here is my take..
Heroine – Sushasini vs Revathi – Revathi wins
1st Hero – Mohan vs Mohan – nobody wins 🙂
2nd Hero – Prathap Pothen vs Karthik – Karthik wins
Music Director background score – Illayaraja vs Illayaraja – Mouna Ragam wins
Music Director songs – Illayaraja vs Illayaraja – Its a Tie. Both the albums are awesome !
Editing – Paul Doraisingh vs B Lenin – I think Lenin wins.
Cinematography – Ashok Kumar vs PC Sriram – PC wins by a whisker.
Comedy track – Veniradai Murthy/Keech vs VK Ramasamy – Veniradai wins
Supporting cast – Sarath Babu/ Keech/Murthy vs Sardarji /VK Ramaswamy -both were awesome -Tie ?
Directors – J Mahendran vs Mani Rathnam – Mani by a whisker !? Both were trendsetters. Mani had Mahendran NK as reference atleast. Whereas Mahendran’s may have had outside references.
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brangan
August 25, 2016
Aadhy / Raj: Reg. Mohan, even Revathy asks him this question. “Naan avvalavu vendaam-nu sonna apparamum why did you say yes?” He says something like, “I didn’t want to get married. I came only because my anna-anni compelled me. I stayed behind just to tell you I wasn’t interested. But then, when you told me the exact same things that I wanted to tell you, somehow I began to like you very much. I said yes.” He then adds, “You know why a child cries when born? Because it’s pulled out of a cosy environment and thrust into a strange new one.”
So it’s a combination of (1) finding a wavelength match in a woman he never expected to like, and (2) the belief that her cussedness is like a child’s reaction to a move, and she’ll gradually get over it.
It’s one of the very few Mohan roles I like 🙂
Also, Revathy’s decision isn’t as simple as family pressure. She resists. She fights. When her brother says, “Enna nalla edam theriyumaa?” she says, “Appo nee kalyanam pannikko.” Her father has to plead with her. Still, she storms out after creating a HUGE drama — and when she returns, her dad has had a heart attack. She’s not a totally evil person, and when her mother asks for “thaali pichai” she just gives in — probably a mix of guilt and exhaustion (not being able to fight or argue any more).
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sankarshan
August 26, 2016
It is unfair to judge nenjathai kiillathe with mount ragam manigandan followed mahendran brilliant work after a decade
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Vishal
August 26, 2016
blurb, one example that comes to mind is Mahesh Bhatt’s classic Arth. Pooja (played by Shabana Aazmi) forms a friendship with Raj, who is a very nice guy, and in love with her. But Pooja decides to stay independent, adopt a girl to raise her alone. She also rejects her repenting husband, who is ready to move back in with her.
In one of the most satisfying movie ending scenes, she declares “By maintaining an identify of my own, I want to live by myself”. Sirf Pooja banke hi jeena chahti hoon. And Raj lets her go and reckons that she will never need a Raj or Malhotra (i.e., any other guy) now that she has found her own independent identity. She walks away to the beach, raising her daughter to the backdrop of a rising sun.
I wish Bhatt comes back to direct more movies like this masterpiece.
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Raj
August 26, 2016
@Aadhy/BR: Mohan’s characterization is harder to understand in the movie. If one is not interested in a wedding and if the girl doesn’t show up, the easier way would have been to move on and avoid the wedding right? Why even wait for the girl to say that you are not interested? So does it mean he was not very sure of his decision and just wanted to take a chance. Its also weird he didn’t want to know why she was not interested [or does she I cannot recollect]
He kind of uses the opportunity to force himself into Divya’s life. [Similar to Arvind Swami in Roja.] However, he doesn’t come close to that kind of person in the rest of the movie.
Though the movie doesn’t show him reacting much to Divya’s past life, did it hurt his ego that she is still in love with another male and is that why he doesn’t even try to convince Divya to come out of divorce.
I could not get in to his character, it has several shades – Progressive in some instances, considerate in some instances, egoistic and confused at some instances.. But that is what I like about his characterization…
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Madan
August 26, 2016
“Music Director songs – Illayaraja vs Illayaraja – Its a Tie. Both the albums are awesome !” – Yeah, both awesome albums. But I find Mouna Raagam a little more unique while, aside from Paruvame, Nenjathai Killathey is more typical of IR. There are two songs in Mouna Raagam where IR either did not use the big string section or only sparsely – Mandram Vandha and Pani Vizhum Iravu. Mandram Vandha is driven purely by guitar, flute and trumpet with some keyboard. This refutes the common complaint against IR that he relies on lots of instruments and lots of notes. Neither is necessarily true. There are other songs to be offered as exhibits to counter this criticism – Ilaya Nila, Enna Satham Indha Neram, Un Paarvayil – but Mouna Raagam stands out for having two songs of minimalist-Raja in the same album.
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blurb
August 26, 2016
brangan: Also, I find it amusing that there’s always some confusion as to whether or not you’re live.
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Rahini David
August 26, 2016
Raj: Terrific Comment. To a certain extent we have to accept that the movie will not move ahead without Mohan behaving in this manner. Otherwise, what he did is certainly wrong. I ranted about this in the below threads.
https://baradwajrangan.wordpress.com/2016/01/13/maalai-nerathu-mayakkam-an-unbelievable-story-about-an-unsuited-couple/#comment-56388
https://femininetosh.wordpress.com/2015/04/08/mouna-raagam-vs-raja-rani/
BR: He gives a patient reply citing the birth of a child and it’s unfamiliarity, yes. But whether he patiently explains his stance or not, what he did is surely wrong. What if Revathy is a lesbian? What if Karthik is a woman (and alive) and Revathy is buying time to finally come out of her closet after achieving financial independence? Does the “you are just unfamiliar with me” stance still stand? Can she explain EVERYTHING to a stranger in the 2-3 mins that is available to her.
En Rasavin Manasilea explains this by telling us that RajKiran is a brute who does not understand Meena’s consent. But Mohan basically isn’t that sort of brute. So…
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brangan
August 26, 2016
Rahini David: No, am not defending Mohan. Just explaining possible reasons for why he did what he did. People on screen cannot always be doing politically correct things. And for its time, for the India of the time, this was still a very plausible reality — that people do things out of a combination of parental or social pressure, even if they know (in their hearts) that it’s not always the right thing.
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Anu
August 26, 2016
@BR – pet peeve: can we please do away with ‘exact same’? It’s an Americanism, and makes me want to pull out my hair, one strand at a time. What’s wrong with ‘exactly the same’ if you do want to use a redundant word? Just a request, apropos of nothing. 🙂
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Raj Balakrishnan
August 26, 2016
Some lovely comments here. I think Mohan was initially confused, that is why though he was not interested he decides to make the long trip from Delhi to Chennai. I think that he was not very sure that he did not want to get married at that point of time. On meeting Revathi he is smitten and says yes to the alliance as he thinks that she will eventually come around, as girls usually did back then. What I don’t get is why after accepting to get married to Mohan, for the sake of her parents, Revathi immediately asks for a divorce? Does she not realise that her parents would be devastated by their daughter’s failed marriage?
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Misha
August 26, 2016
Great comments and discussions.
I feel the Mohan character is being too harshly judged. The scene where Divya talks to Mohan during the “ponnu pakkal” is depicted as almost charming. She only says that she doesn’t like the “ponnu pakkal” ritual and that she has her flaws and doesn’t feel would be compatible with him (assumed to be a nalla maapillai). It was probably refreshing for the Mohan character (educated and well read) to meet a girl who had a mind of her own, was self aware and willing to speak out. I don’t think she expresses her disagreement – explicit/otherwise – to getting married. In fact, in a different movie with a different tone, this exact scene could be a “meet-cute”.
I don’t agree with “the girl will come around” ideas in Indian society. Just clarifying that in the movie world and sensibilities of the time, this seems ok.
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Rahini David
August 26, 2016
Raj Balakrishnan: Very True. After all, the stigma of a divorced daughter was very high in those times. She asks for a divorce as he keeps wanting to buy her stuff in that mall and then he gets her the papers and she signs her to make a strong point about how serious she is about her objections. After all, when the parents visit, she expects to play the happy couple game. She is an impulsive girl who has not become fully an adult.
BR: Yes, I understand that you are not defending. I love it when people do politically incorrect things as long as we understand the motivations. In Rajkiran’s case, he is not brought up to believe that female consent matters. Mohan is different. His USP itself seems to be that he is understanding and very sane. So there is a headscratcher moment there. It does not gel with what is supposedly his personality. Later his short bouts of anger are explained that he had a hard day at work. But the first decision is a glitch.
Also, regarding people doing politically incorrect things, i prefer it that the main character himself (or herself) makes the wrong decision. It is unfair to always push the wrong in the hands of a minor character. It is easy to say that Revathy confided in Mohan’s sister rather than Mohan himself and that the sister did not communicate this information for some selfish reason. This is the route a daily soap would have taken. And MRagam is written more sensibly.
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Aadhy
August 26, 2016
Raj/BR: Do inconsistencies in characters make them real? Absolutely. But does the Mohan character’s inconsistency ring emotionally true, inside the gambit of his characterisation? Not to me, atleast till yesterday. A person who would respect Divya’s choice right from first night to divorce did not seem like he would disrespect her choice before marriage.
“So it’s a combination of (1) finding a wavelength match in a woman he never expected to like, and (2) the belief that her cussedness is like a child’s reaction to a move, and she’ll gradually get over it.”
That was really elucidative. Point (1) explains why he seemed to like her. Point (2) explains why he might not have given too much of thought to whether she liked him. Coming to think of it, I now understand him a bit more. I might also add that Mohan is as strong-headed as Divya and Karthik are, but in an opposite way. While Divya and Karthik were kind of against the system and norms of the time, Mohan seemed to be completely FOR the system, or bound by the system, in a programmed way. He holds a firm belief in the system above an individual’s choice, a system of beliefs that apparently seemed to be working so well then.
This could explain why he flew all the way down from Delhi, even though he wasn’t really interested. It’s because of his belief in this setup/institution which seemed to be providing long-lasting years of companionship till then. He stays late to meet her because of the same reason. He doesn’t attach importance to her thoughts because of the same reason why he didn’t attach importance to HIS own initial thoughts on marriage. His boundedness to duty, rules and norms is also shown in the scenes at his workplace. He reports to work soon after wedding not only because of the post-wedding turmoil, but also he himself is so duty/rules bound. Whenever V.K. Ramasamy nudges him to spend more time with his wife, Mohan constantly reminds him of some union problem that has to be sorted out. He does not flinch while firing a worker, even when vicious threats are being hurled at him. Maybe the city he works in, Delhi, is also indicative of the rules and system being entrenched deep inside him.
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Tambi Dude
August 26, 2016
Did anyone notice the scene in Mouna Raagam copied from Ardha Satya.
Revathy and Karthik walk on a side walk and she tells him that if he wants to marry her, he has to give up violence.
In Ardha Satya, Smita Patil walks with Om Puri on the sidewalk (camera follows them from the road same way like MR) while she tells him that her husband can not be a cop who is so violent at work.
Can’t be dismissed as a coincidence.
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shaviswa
August 26, 2016
Just a year or two before Mouna Ragam was released, I know someone in my family who was hell bent on not wanting to get married. He was forced to tag along with his parents and siblings to a “ponnu paarkkal” event.
Everyone in the house were expecting him to reject the girl. He ended up saying yes…..and when quizzed why, he said I did not have any reason to reject the girl. I liked her so I said yes.
Of course in my example, the lady in question was also willing to get married 🙂 but nevertheless the point I wanted to make is a person – especially in the social setting of the 80s – may say one thing at home, rebel against his parents, reject the notion of arranged marriage etc. – but may end up doing the exact opposite.
The person in my family was also a fantastic gentleman and highly educated, well employed – the ideal groom 🙂
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shaviswa
August 26, 2016
Divya is shown to be a girl who is shown to be impetuous. She speaks without knowing why Karthik was at her college to meet her – leading to Karthik getting smitten by her. She agrees to have coffee with him just to prove a point. She gives into Karthik’s “naalaikku kalyanam pannikalaam” demand without thinking about the consequences.
Similarly, she does not wait to hear Mohan speak. She just lets go her thoughts about arranged marriage and how she feels she does not fit into that – leading to Mohan now getting smitten. And when asked what she would like to have as her first gift, she retorts demanding a divorce., Again no thought process about what her parents would say, etc.
When she has a change of mind, she wears the anklets and immediately wants Chandrakumar to appreciate that, recognize her and probably realize her growing love towards him. When in a rare moment he shouts back, she immediately demands to be sent home.
That is how Divya’s character has been designed. And it is amazing that she actually had people liking her despite all her flaws. 🙂
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
August 26, 2016
Tambi Dude : Great observation. Maybe the director was walking the fine line between copying, assimilation and inspiration ? For instance, there is one step in the song Oho Megham avandhadho where she holds a lampoost and sways just like Gene Kelly in ‘Singing in the Rain’. Same inference ?
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
August 26, 2016
Bogeygolf : Nice comparison.Reminds me of Tony Greig’s man-to-man comparison prior to an India-Australia Final / Semi-Final.
But comparisons aside, I think Nenjathai Killaathey was a pathbreaking film. With the resources Mahendran had at his disposal he did a phenomenal job.
Mouna Ragam was more about an audience in search of a movie which would address their innermost desires. Between 1980 and 1986, the guys were more open minded, the girls had gotten spunkier, India was slowly and surely liberalizing.
Not to take anything away from Mani Ratnam but he happenned to be at the right place at the right time.
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brangan
August 26, 2016
Rahini David: But “innate decency” doesn’t necessarily mean “psychological acuity.” He probably just thought that she will end up liking him, just like he ended up liking her despite his initial lack of interest in the marriage.
Now, had she told him about Karthik (or that she had a huge reason that she cannot tell him, or if she’d pleaded with him to say no) and he still insisted on going ahead, that would be a problem (for that time). But she just gives a list of her faults, he probably was just in that old Indian mode of “give her time to know me and she’ll come around… just like it happened for me.”
Would it have helped for him to have had a strong reason for saying yes, and if that reason had been spelled out for us? Perhaps. But the absence of this reason wasn’t quite a deal-breaker for me.
Mani Ratnam is generally very good at laying out a psychological “terrain” for characters, so that even if we don’t see their every thought/move, we can “fill in the blanks” from what we know about them.
Even in something as “minor” as Agni, you can see the real love duet (Vaa Vaa Anbe) happening only after Nirosha finds out about Karthik’s broken home, which draws him closer to her (she comes from a broken home too).
More of a head-scratcher for me was when Shalini in Alaipaayuthey suspects Madhavan of having an affair just by one long shot of him with some woman. I wasn’t able to “fill in the blanks” there.
Another odd bit was the decision to make the heroine of Kadal a “love interest.” The film is essentially about the tug of war between God/Arvind Swamy and Satan/Arjun for Thomas’s soul, and the blank-slate, child-like girl is supposed to be his angel/redeemer. In this context, the Moongil thottam song looks odd because it transforms this relationship into something like a regular/generic hero-heroine one.
Thambi Dude: But you can see this type of “homage” in many movies. Say, in Thiruda Thiruda. There are a couple of hat tips to Saagar. Ramesh Sippy was possibly another filmmaker who influenced him. Plus, that Salim-Javed nod in Nayakan.
sravishanker1401gmailcom: Not to take anything away from Mani Ratnam but he happenned to be at the right place at the right time.
This is true of every successful person 🙂 You may have loads of talent, but if you aren’t in the right place at the right time, the talent alone will get you nowhere.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
August 26, 2016
BR : Agree absolutely, true of every successful person. But it does make you think, would Mahendran have been more successful if he had been born a few years later.
Would the young turks of Carnatic Music – Sanjay Subrahmanyan, TM Krishna, Sowmya have been also rans if they were not taken up by the wave that helped them in the early 90s and late 80s ?
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
August 26, 2016
Further to my earlier comment, I happened to see Nenjathai Killaathey past its 365 day run at Devi Kala and my reaction was “Vow !!” and “Uh” – in the sense “where was THAT coming from !”.
Mouna Ragam also had me zapped but it was more like “Whew ! Atlast these (movie) guys are listening to us / acknowledging that we exist”
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brangan
August 26, 2016
sravishanker1401gmailcom: “Whew ! Atlast these (movie) guys are listening to us / acknowledging that we exist”
Absolutely. If you were a certain kind of pre-teen to twentysomething in the 80s, parts Mani Ratnam’s films were like seeing your thoughts, your self up there on screen…
Wrote about it here…
Because to those of us in our teens and in Chennai when Mani Ratnam started out, he wasn’t just a director, and he didn’t just make films. He was a zeitgeist-defining pop showman who propped up before us mirrors into our selves – our young, urban selves. No one – just no one – could put on screen what we thought and what we felt and what we dreamed the way Mani Ratnam did at the time.
https://baradwajrangan.wordpress.com/2007/02/10/mani-ratnam-madras-male/
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Misha
August 26, 2016
@BR,
“Now, had she told him about Karthik (or that she had a huge reason that she cannot tell him, or if she’d pleaded with him to say no) and he still insisted on going ahead, that would be a problem (for that time)”
That’s my take too. I think her “objections” sounded more like “save yourself, I am not the prototypical ideal ponnu”. And maybe Mohan found that charming in a “in fact I like that about you” kinda way. More miscommunication than anything ?
Also I wonder about that scene as it could have been glossed over and nothing major would change in the movie. I think its a “she tried to tell him/he didn’t get it” – lets set the stage for the meat of the story.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
August 26, 2016
BR :
” He was a zeitgeist-defining pop showman who propped up before us mirrors into our selves – our young, urban selves. No one – just no one – could put on screen what we thought and what we felt and what we dreamed the way Mani Ratnam did at the time.”
My reaction “Where was THAT coming from !” Ultimate !
I should put that comment on my WhatsApp profile 🙂 🙂
My thoughts – No one could express what my gen felt about Mani Rathnam the way YOU put it in that one awesome, defining, kick-ass sentence.
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hari ohm
August 26, 2016
shaviswa why 80’s, even now I know guys who are hell bent on not wanting to marry, tag along for the pen paarkum padalam, after taking one look at the girl, fall flat and say a big YES :).
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
August 26, 2016
Hari Ohm : Maybe its the setting and the sudden falling into place of thousand private specifications encapsulated in the single word “thunderbolt” which results in the volte face
https://thezolazone.wordpress.com/2016/08/25/the-coach-who-ran-the-extra-distance/
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Aadhy
August 26, 2016
Misha : “she tried to tell him/he didn’t get it” . Thanks! This clarified that entire episode for me. It could indeed be, this miscommunication, the reason for him not taking her words too seriously, rather than he understanding and still deliberately choosing to ignore what she said.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 26, 2016
Whether we agree or not, Idaya Kovil was directed by Mani Ratnam and was a box-office hit. That makes the film his first ‘hit’.
A lot of ‘experts’ from the industry believe that Mouna Raagam was shamelessly copied from Andha Ezhu Naatkal. In fact, I’ve heard that Mani Ratnam initially wanted to assist Bhagyaraj, but was rejected by the latter. 🙂
There’s a reason why others (including BR) keep comparing the film with NK – the similarities in the writing (especially the lead characters) of both films. Look at NK’s climax (towards the tail end of the clip) and compare it with MR’s:
Calcutta was replaced by Madras. The airport was replaced by a railway station. Was it just co-incidental?
bogeygolf: Not sure if you’ve carefully examined both films. I haven’t seen NK fully, but my take would be the exact opposite of yours (except may be on a couple of aspects).
I’m not a big fan of Suhasini’s acting prowess, but she comes across as a perfect ‘girl-next-door’ in the film. She supposedly lost that year’s National Award by a whisker.
1st hero/2nd hero: That’s an odd comparison to make. The Mohan character of NK should actually be mapped to Karthik of MR, and NK’s PP should be mapped to MR’s Mohan.
Agree with the score, but IR was a bit younger when NK happened. 🙂
Ashok Kumar had won a National Award for NK.
As for editing and direction, you need to watch the clip which I’ve posted above. The intercuts – between Suhasini jogging in an earlier scene and rushing towards the airport in the climax – are sheer poetry. Contrast it with the somewhat-dramatic climax of MR.
The Sarath Babu character was more like a father to Suhasini’s. There’s no equivalent of his in MR. He was, in fact, the ‘hero’ of the film.
I think ‘art direction’ is probably an area where MR clearly outshines NK.
All that said, I believe NK was more ‘poetic’. 🙂 The then Mani Ratnam (as a writer) was definitely no where in the league of Mahendran!
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 26, 2016
Homage to Ray 🙂
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brangan
August 26, 2016
Honest Raj (formerly ‘V’enkatesh): The intercuts – between Suhasini jogging in an earlier scene and rushing towards the airport in the climax – are sheer poetry.
Dude, that’s bad, overemphatic filmmaking, more Bharathiraja’s style than Mahendran’s 🙂 I mean, I love Mahendran, but this particular instance of editing is just hitting the audience on the head.. Sorry, but had to say it 🙂
The real star in NK is Ashok Kumar. His work is breathtaking, and IMO, leagues ahead of PC’s in Mouna Raagam.
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blurb
August 26, 2016
Vishal: Arth is a little different, no? Sure, Raj loves Pooja, but she rejects him. But those two are not in a marriage. So, it’s relatively easier for the movie to get away without a sound justification. We also have Revathy-AravindSwamy in Marupadiyum e.t.c.
I am specifically looking at married couples and cases where they call off the marriage because it just isn’t working out — without either being shown as the villain. Because that’s what happens in real life no? – neither is the villain, they’re just not right as a married couple. I don’t know if movies show it as is. Tamil movies seem to look for a sound justification to break a marriage.
Some of my fav. examples from Hollywood – Stepmom (Ed Harris and Susan Sarandon), Mrs Doubtfire (Robin Williams, Sally Field), and to some extent, Revolutionary Road (Leonardo DiCaprio and Kate Winsler) e.t.c.
Maybe it says something about the culture?
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blurb
August 26, 2016
brangan, sravishanker1401gmailcom: Loved re-reading the 2007 article on Mani Ratnam. You also speak about it a bit in the Introduction to CWMR. The first time I read that Introduction, it moved me to tears! Just was overwhelmed by nostalgia and long lost memories.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 26, 2016
BR: Geniuses like me and Shantaram would beg to differ. 🙂
http://web.archive.org/web/20160304072824/http://cinema.maalaimalar.com/2012/05/15174425/mahendran-nenchathai-killathe.html
But then, I understand that this technique is dated now. IIRC, the last Tamil film that made use of this technique was Bommalattam.
Yedhu eppadiyo, Bharathirajava ‘bad filmmaker’ nu sollama solliteengalae. 😛
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Shalini
August 26, 2016
@blurb – Gulzar’s “Ijaazat” (Permission) starring Rekha, Naseeruddin Shah and Anuradha Patel might fit the bill for the kind of no-fault marital-breakup movie you’re seeking.
Linking to Ijaazat’s wikipedia page (warning: contains spoilers) since I don’t trust myself to talk about the film objectively. 🙂
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ijaazat
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vijay
August 26, 2016
As long as NK has Uravenum pudhiya vaanil in it, it will always win the musical war with MR in my books. 1980 was one of the defining years for IR. Moodupani, Nizhalgal, Johny, NK, Ullasa paravaigaL, Poonthalir,Panneer puspangaL…just off the top of my head.
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sachita
August 26, 2016
Comparison between two films just based on a oneline storyline doesnt do justice to either of these films. I mean how can you compare antha ezhu natkal to mouna raagam. For that matter,
I am not a big fan of antha ezhu natkal.
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MANK
August 27, 2016
Brangan, i look at this movie as a coming of age tale of Divya. the impulsive , impetuous ,mischievous girl turning in to a mature women. she is a girl who lives and think for the moment without looking at the long term consequences. the kind of character that would become the prototype for whole lot of MR characters in his future films.
Only that girl can sing and dance in the rain even after she has lost the love of her life. only she can run around playing with cats and mischievously feeding the wrong tamil words to the Mechanic sardarji character, even while stuck in an unhappy marriage
But only later she realise that her actions and words has consequences – when her husband starts throwing the same words back at her when she begins warming up to him. she realises her childishness when the sardarji returns her thank you with poday de – which she had taught him. I think divya was one of the richest, complex and unique characters that MR has ever created.and the most influential IMO.
I guess its no coincidence that Anjali Menon named Nazriya\s character Divya in Bangalore days , where the character also follows a similar arc of a girl becoming a women while stuck in an unhappy marriage.
Reg: Mohan’s character, i never for a moment thought his character was in any way inconsistent.. He is a clear headed and mature guy who is strongly opinionated.As we see in his work later, he takes his decisions methodically after lengthy negotiations, but once has taken them he his not afraid to implement them without fear of consequences – as he does while firing a union worker from the company,
he decided to go see the girl to say no the proposal . so it would take a very special girl to change his mind and he finds her in Divya . She impresses him in the first meeting itself. the gist of what she say to him is that , she is not going to apologise for coming late drenched in rain, because she doesnt like this ritual of ‘seeing the girl’, as it is like picking an animal from the market, that she has a lot of vices and she could never be a good wife for him.
this is not what a guy like him expected to see or hear when he came . he equates her words to her honest character rather than a rejection of his proposal. So its natural that he likes her immediately. The example of the new born child is handed out by him much later when they are in Delhi, as thats the only plausible reason he finds for her discomfort in the marriage.
But once she signs the divorce papers, he is resigned to his fate of getting divorced. so he now stays strong in in that position. even when it is obvious to him that she is warming to him, he doesn’t change his position . he wants her come out and state it explicitly and refuse to give her his opinion even when she asks him for that . as he says – ithu un vazhkai, un mudivu
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MANK
August 27, 2016
MR might have the same story as NK.AEN or HDDCS, but the screenplay ,characterizations and making are totally different and those are the things that give a film its individuality. not the story.Just like how nayakan stands apart from a thousand other Godfather clones.
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MANK
August 27, 2016
What if Revathy is a lesbian? What if Karthik is a woman (and alive) and Revathy is buying time to finally come out of her closet after achieving financial independence? Does the “you are just unfamiliar with me” stance still stand?
Rahini, of all the peculiar comments\analysis i was expecting to read here about the inconsistencies in Revathi’s characterisation , this was the surreal one. 🙂 . my god what were you thinking.this is a 1986 tamil family drama. you gotta think clean thoughts 😀
Honest Raj, its not Art direction, but it is direction where MR outshines NK. i love Mahendran’s work, but Mani aces him where NK and MR are concerned. . you said that MR’S climax is over dramatic and it is , but you see what mani is going for , he is drawing a parallel with the earlier scene where Karthik is running to Revathi and gets shot by the police. this time Mohan makes it to her safely.Mani was rather raw at the time so he over did it in the execution . as opposed to say in thalapathi, where those echoes are executed pefectly.
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Anu Warrier
August 27, 2016
Shalini, what are your objections to Ijaazat? 🙂
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Madan
August 27, 2016
“Moodupani, Nizhalgal, Johny, NK, Ullasa paravaigaL, Poonthalir,Panneer puspangaL” – Interesting how much perspectives differ between fans. I like Ullasa Paravaigal music but wouldn’t consider it a particularly great album. The songs are all nice but I don’t find any of them outstanding. Sort of like Guru but little bit better, esp the orchestration but no Kaatril Endhan Geetham/Poonthalir Aada/En Iniya Pon. I do agree though that 1980 was sort of a breakout year for Raja and Nizhalgal would probably be my favourite 1980 album and definitely one of my all time favourites of Raja.
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B.Krishnakumar
August 27, 2016
hi Rangan:
There is one thing which keeps irking me even after 30-years of Mouna Ragam release. One can understand how deeply Revathi her father decides to get her married. She is still recovering from the Karthik-tradegy. Perfeclty fine!! But what I fail to understand is how come she dances around happily in rain and sings a song (lovely song though, Kudos to Isai Gnani) when she is supposed to be at home for ponnu-pakara event.
There is a slight disconnect I felt, especially when one considers it is a Mani Ratnam movie. Or is it that a trying to read more into the sitation and she is after all a teenage girl trying to enjoy life !!
Cheers
B.Krishnakumar
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brangan
August 27, 2016
MANK: Excellent comments. And the best thing about that climax is that, unlike Nenjathai, MR does not try to ‘remind’ the viewer of the earlier instance of “man running towards Divya.” He does not use ‘poetic editing’ ( :-p ) to say, “Look, i am splicing in scenes from the earlier run so that you see the meaning of this run.” It’s implicit.
Adding to the weight of the situation, mohan has to do what karthik did and the “will he, won’t he reach her in time” is made more dramatic by her egging him on with her reactions. As opposed to the first time, where she just stood frozen on the court steps.
Regarding echoes, MR’s films are filled with them. They’re more obvious in his early films (esp. Agni), more subtle later. It’s a masala trope he’s taken and fashioned his own way.
Reg direction, most people associate that with ‘story.’ Which is why you want to laugh every time someone says nayakan is ‘copied’ from godfather. The two styles are so different.
Also amazing is how he made that big leap in just one film. He was a good director in Mouna Raagam, but overnight he became a great one. I suspect the opportunity to direct kamal and have this great actor as his disposal spurred him to greater heights.
B.Krishnakumar: as i said earlier, there must have been a passage of time after karthik’s death. People do get on with life after a while, even if there is a sadness inside.
Alsi, it’s a screenplay ‘cheat.’ The first time you see the film, you’re meant to think she’s this happy-go-lucky girl etc till the point the marriage is brought up. The song adds to this sense of divya.
And note how even this songs adds to divya’s character. She isn’t just singing and dancing. We also see that is not intimidated when those men in cycles surround her. That’s her core.
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B.Krishnakumar
August 27, 2016
Hi Madan,
Cannot agree more with Nizhalhal as top pick of 1980s. Wonderful when one considers that Illayaraja was still in his early stages of his career. Kudos to lyricist as well for those wonderful lines.
The song “Madai Thiranthdu Aadum” song. Lovely lyrics and tune. Given the situation was that was given to Chandrasekar, wonder if there could be a better tune, song which gels so well with the requirement.
These two lines keep haunting me forever:
…புது ராகம் படைப்பதாலே நானும் இறைவனே…
and
….இசைக்கென இசைக்கின்ற ரசிகர்கள் ராஜ்ஜியம் எனக்கே தான்…
wow Isai Gnani
B.Krishnakumar
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Kaushik
August 27, 2016
Aren’t., Nenjathai Killathey, antha yezhu naatkal and mouna raagam inspired from oru oothaappoo Kann simittu Kirathu? A decade later the same film was remade as Idhaya thamarai featuring karthik revathi and nizhalgal Ravi.
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venkatesh
August 27, 2016
For those comparing Raja Rani with Mouna Raagam , please don’t.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 27, 2016
MANK: Honest Raj, its not Art direction, but it is direction where MR outshines NK. i love Mahendran’s work, but Mani aces him where NK and MR are concerned. . you said that MR’S climax is over dramatic and it is , but you see what mani is going for , he is drawing a parallel with the earlier scene where Karthik is running to Revathi and gets shot by the police. this time Mohan makes it to her safely.Mani was rather raw at the time so he over did it in the execution . as opposed to say in thalapathi, where those echoes are executed pefectly.
I meant ‘production design’. Apart from Ray and MR, I cannot think of any other Indian filmmaker who’s given utmost importance to this area in all their films. I’m guessing that you are aware of the interview that Kovai Thambi (Idaya Kovil’s producer) had given about Mani Ratnam when CWMR came out. 😛 In a later interview, the producer talked about MR’s perfection for craft. In this article (not sure if you could read Tamil), he specifically talks about an incident (involving a ‘set’) which happened during the shooting of IK:
So the idea of drawing a ‘parallel’ was conceptualised based on NK’s climax? 🙂
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Sujatha
August 28, 2016
One thing that’s always struck me as odd about Revathy’s characterisation is how this woman still brooding over the loss of her first love and and still hurting from the trauma of watching him die before her very eyes, is introduced with a happy-go-lucky and frothy dance-and-song in the rain?! Seems implausible and, quite honestly, a weak introduction to her character and state of mind. To me, this will always remain a major flaw.
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Madan
August 28, 2016
” is introduced with a happy-go-lucky and frothy dance-and-song in the rain” – One justification for this could be that it’s just part of her at times rude and often petulant irreverence which is depicted throughout the film. She’s intentionally gone dancing in the rain with her friends to be late for the meeting with her suitor (because she doesn’t want to get married). Basically Revathy is characterised as having some petulant tendencies but also wont to speak her mind and protective of her independence, sort of a rebel. I agree that it could have been etched better and it only works because her portrayal is endearing and IR’s score is very sensitive.
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MANK
August 28, 2016
Also amazing is how he made that big leap in just one film. He was a good director in Mouna Raagam, but overnight he became a great one. I suspect the opportunity to direct kamal and have this great actor as his disposal spurred him to greater heights.
Brangan, that’s true. Mounaragam is to mani what Mean streets was for Scorsese or Duel was for spielberg. the movie with which they found their voice. the film with which they convinced (themselves and) others that they are good filmmakers And with their next films , Taxi driver and Jaws , they would prove that they are great directors.
Kamal must have been a real inspiration, He is not just as a great actor, but also somebody who has a good knowledge about screenplay and technique. they made a winning combination. its too bad that never collaborated again. its a big lose for both of them
Also , both the critical and commercial success of Mragam must have been a great confidence booster. because all his previous films were made under trying circumstances and were tweaked under the pressure by producers. the success of this film which he made with total freedom and without compromises must have felt real good and given him the confidence that he is on the right creative path.
And regarding a comment you made about Ashok kumar vs P.C. Sriram
I am no expert on cinematography but isnt it unfair to compare AK and PC s work, because it appears to me that both are different styles of photography
I agree that AK photography for NK is really beautiful,But its more the natural, unvarnished kind that was the hallmark of work done by Balu Mahendra , Govind Nihalani or Ashok Mehta (in his early films) . the PC style is more surrealistic ,- which he would go on to consolidate in Nayagan – with its reliance on Back-lighting, underexposure, lighting actors as if they are being lit from inside (which is inspired by the works of Gordon willis and Vittario storaro) – would go on to become the definitive look of south indian cinema – and the post the success of roja – of hindi cinema as well. , it was quite pathbreaking in its own way it was not just his disciples like Jeeva, KV Anand, thiru, etc who would follow that style, but also Malayalam photographers like santhosh sivan,Madhu ambat,Ravi k chandran etc would all be influenced by the PC style.
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MANK
August 28, 2016
I meant ‘production design’. Apart from Ray and MR, I cannot think of any other Indian filmmaker who’s given utmost importance to this area in all their films.
Honest Raj, i understood that , i think we discussed the quality of prod. design in regards to manirathnam in the OK Kanmani thread.
What i am saying is that , it doesn’t matter whether Mragam was inspired from NK (and most probably it was), but the thing is that i believe MR is a better film and a better directed film than NK.
What mani did was to remove the corny and perhaps stereotypical aspects from NK,- in both screenplay and characterizations – while making his film . NK, – even though the story grows through the suhasini character – is more of an ensemble piece. with its own set of typical characters and situations. the elderly brother who is a father figure, his shrewish wife, the misunderstood lover,… . in Mragam Its primarily Revathi’s story and post interval movie relies solely on the husband and wife characters. thats what really makes MR so much special. its just these 2 characters who solve the issues among themselves and not like in NK where mohan makes a showpiece of his handicapped wife for suhasini to change her mind.,
I am not saying NK is a bad film or Mahendran’s direction is bad , i am just saying that i liked Mani’s craft and approach wrt Mouna ragam much better.
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ThouShaltNot
August 28, 2016
@Kaushik: Not sure about the inspiration bit, but agree that OOKPS, AEN and MR (which is pretty much the same as NK) deal with a triangular relationship involving a woman, her husband and an ex. All three involve an inopportune marriage, a truncated relationship with an ex, and a significant residue of unresolved feelings. In the case of MR, the ex is dead, but the woman has not yet reached any resolution when she is married off. In OOPKS (what fine performances by Kamal and Sujatha! Also, 2 terrific songs in “aandavan illaa…” and “nalla manam vaazhga…” deserve mention), fate intervenes and the woman is forced to “move on” (man’s insistence too), but once the man is out of jail, he struggles to come to terms with his loss. The married woman attempts to bail her ex from his predicament, but is then entangled in an emotional vortex far more powerful than what had paralyzed her ex. In AEN, the ex has moved on (so to speak), but not the married woman. In all three, immured in tradition (differences a matter of degree), the woman seeks ultimate resort within marriage (society didn’t take too kindly to “flinging” thaalis, Sirai notwithstanding and Lakshmi in that movie had a real case dealing with a wretch as a husband, unlike the other three). Those are the similarities. But, the detours each movie makes to its denouement are very different.
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Tambi Dude
August 29, 2016
I personally find Nayagan quite overrated. The movie looks badly dated and I had tough time watching it few years ago. In the genre of Gangster movies, RGV’s Satya beats it clearly. THat movie is as watchable today, as it was in 1998.
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Rahini David
August 29, 2016
MANK:my god what were you thinking. this is a 1986 tamil family drama. you gotta think clean thoughts 😀
Admittedly out of touch with … mmm … clean thoughts. 😉
Kaushik: On Idhaya Thamarai being a remake of Oru Oodhappu Kan Simittugiradhu, this is the first I have heard that and reading the wikipedia synopsis, I should say that they are very similar. I have always thought of Idhaya Thamarai as Mouna Raagam with the Karthik-Revathy romance being milked for all its worth. They are the same people with the same characteristics. Karthik has anger issues and Revathy would have none of it. And then Revathy marries a saner man. If Mouna Raagam Karthik had not died in front of Revathy and had just gone missing and came back after 3-4 years of jail, what you have is Idhaya Thamarai
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shaviswa
August 29, 2016
@Madan, @Krishnakumar – Ilaiyaraja had a breakout year in 1979 IMO. The following movies marked his new style then:
Dharma Yuddham
Priya (first stereo recording in Tamil films)
Azhagae Unnai Aaradhikkiren
Poonthalir
Rosappoo Ravikkaikaari
Uthiri Pookkal
This was followed by a phenomenal 1980.
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Akhilan
August 29, 2016
@Tambi Dude Agree with you completely… Can never get my head around how it made it to TIME Magazine’s ‘100 Best Movies of All-Time’ list… I particularly hated the supposed ‘comedy-track’ in the movie, where if I my memory serves me well, one or maybe a couple of the characters were repeatedly interrupted at their attempts of watching porn…?!?! Or something to that effect… Found it nauseating and frankly unbearable…
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Raj Balakrishnan
August 29, 2016
@Akhilan, you’ve got it wrong. There is no comedy track in Nayakan. I think you are referring to Agni Nakshatram.
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Rahini David
August 29, 2016
“I particularly hated the supposed ‘comedy-track’ in the movie, where if I my memory serves me well, one or maybe a couple of the characters were repeatedly interrupted at their attempts of watching porn…?!?! Or something to that effect… Found it nauseating and frankly unbearable…”
That is Agni Natchathiram. Not Nayagan.
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Akhilan
August 29, 2016
Oops, that’s really my bad…!!
I guess my memory DIDN’T serve me well after all…!! Regardless, was never really a fan of Nayagan and of course, now everyone knows how I feel about Agni Natchathiram as well….
Apologies…
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shaviswa
August 29, 2016
@Akhilan “Thangamani……ensoyyy” from Agni Natchathiram has become a cult classic. 🙂
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shaviswa
August 29, 2016
@Tambi Dude If we see Nayagan from today’s context, you would find it overrated. Today’s film watcher is far more informed. He has access to the best classics from Hollywood and can watch it at a mouse click. Tamil and Hindi films have also improved considerably.
If you watch Tamil films in the 1970s, most films including the great Balachandar’s were horrible films. They were either so bad that you cannot even describe (e.g. the Jayashankar films) or films that were essentially directed like stage plays with cardboard cutout characters. Emotional melodramas with characters shouting at the top of their voice. Poor direction, BGM, choppy and sloppy editing, overacting (or no acting), bad songs (in general), poor production values (horrible sets), etc. Story, screenplay, dialogues were also more like stage plays than a film. Some of this changed thanks to Mahendran and Balu Mahendra. They made some sensible films. But the early 1980s became worse with horrible masala films.
Then you saw a young man change this trend. He made Mouna Ragam which made people sit up and notice and then he delivered Nayagan. It was something most unexpected of Indian cinema. A film that was so well crafted. Almost all departments in the film scored high. Yes – it was loosely based on God Father. But it was still a fantastic movie for Tamil movie lovers. In fact I started liking movies only after I saw watched Mani Ratnam films. He was a trend setter in many ways.
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MANK
August 29, 2016
Just to add to what shaviswa was saying, you just need to check out the kind of films that even Kamal was doing prior to nayagan. If one exclude the KB films, then they read like Kadhal Parisu,Per Sollum Pillai, mangamma sabatham, yikes !
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Madan
August 29, 2016
“It was something most unexpected of Indian cinema.” – Indian cinema? Of that, I am not so sure. Ardh Satya preceded Nayagan by 4 years and was more realistic and more brutal too. It also does not have the unconvincing “avvana nidutha sollu, naan nidutharen” justification offered in Nayagan. In a general sense, films that excelled in most if not all departments had been made in Hindi. And if they were being made in Hindi, I am sure they were also being made in Bengali (since some of the best directors in Hindi cinema were Bengali). The cardboard cut out style seems to have been more of a Tamil cinema problem. Mani Ratnam’s whole vocabulary of film making was certainly fresh to the point of being unprecedented in Tamil cinema but not to the same extent from a pan Indian perspective.
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Raj Balakrishnan
August 29, 2016
Completely agree, Mani Ratnam was a trend setter. He revolutionised not only tamil films but the entire Indian film industry. I had no interest in any aspect of filmmaking, despite my dad being a cinematographer, till I saw Nayakan. Was completely blown away by Nayakan, agni, mouna Ragam and geetanjali etc. Was a die hard mani fan until he came out with raavan. It is not only me but many others in my age group who were impacted by mani’s films. Remember reading a gautam Menon interview wherein he had mentioned that he wanted to become a filmmaker after watching Nayakan.
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Raj Balakrishnan
August 29, 2016
Dear Baradwaj, could we have a piece/thread on 25 years of Roja too. The first tamil movie in history to become a nation wide rage.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 29, 2016
MANK: What i am saying is that , it doesn’t matter whether Mragam was inspired from NK (and most probably it was), but the thing is that i believe MR is a better film and a better directed film than NK.
It doesn’t, but I’m not sure if MR be called a ‘creative masterpiece’. It’s very much probable that MR was inspired by NK (given, Mani Ratnam was a strong admirer of Mahendran). ‘Reworking’ would be the right word.
PC and Karthik were the ones who got largely benefited by MR.
I guess Balu Mahendra was the one who introduced ‘back-lighting’ in Tamil films. PC was famous for ‘top-lighting’. I feel AK was rather underrated; he was constantly overshadowed by BM. Yet, he was a top favourite of many DOPs including BM, PC, Venu, RKC, et al.,
When we talk about cinematography in Indian films, I think men from Kerala are the best. Even a 70s masala film from Malayalam cinema had better visuals than the ‘path breaking’ Tamil films of those times.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 29, 2016
Akhilan: Both Janakaraj and IR were in top form in that scene.
shaviswa: If you watch Tamil films in the 1970s, most films including the great Balachandar’s were horrible films. They were either so bad that you cannot even describe (e.g. the Jayashankar films) or films that were essentially directed like stage plays with cardboard cutout characters. Emotional melodramas with characters shouting at the top of their voice. Poor direction, BGM, choppy and sloppy editing, overacting (or no acting), bad songs (in general), poor production values (horrible sets), etc. Story, screenplay, dialogues were also more like stage plays than a film. Some of this changed thanks to Mahendran and Balu Mahendra. They made some sensible films. But the early 1980s became worse with horrible masala films.
Sridhar’s films (yes those melodramas) had those ‘aesthetics’. KB’s initial films suffered a lot because he came from a theatre background. His career had a massive changeover post Arangetram. I’m not sure about other aspects, but cinematography and music were comparatively much better than most contemporaneous films. He may not be a ‘trendsetter’, but was a complete filmmaker.
I believe Pallavu Anu Pallavi was a ‘good’ film. IIRC, MR called it a ‘satisfactory’ film in CWMR.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 29, 2016
Just to add to what shaviswa was saying, you just need to check out the kind of films that even Kamal was doing prior to nayagan. If one exclude the KB films, then they read like Kadhal Parisu,Per Sollum Pillai, mangamma sabatham, yikes !
MANK: If a star like Kamal restricts himself to films like Moondram Pirai, Nayagan, Hey Ram, et al., they cannot sustain in the industry 🙂 Isn’t Mangamma Sabatham a remake of a Mithun Chakraborty film?
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Tambi Dude
August 30, 2016
@shaviswa: I am picking Nayagan because it is considered as one of the all time best tamil movies. I have always maintained that the true test of a movie is in repeat viewing, specially after many years. If a movie is as watchable years later, as it was when it was released , then you have a case for really great movie. In general Hollywood movies have tremendous repeat value and very few bollywood movies have repeat value.
Nayagan really looks like a poor effort when compared to Godfather, Goodfellas, Satya, Company. Satya had superb characterization, drama and operation details of how mafia operates. The characters, despite being bhais, looked human.
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Deepak Jeswal
August 30, 2016
Well I don’t understand Tamil so can’t comment on Mouna Ragam per se. But I read the comments with interest, wondering if a proper Hindi remake at that time would have helped for all of us. I think I had seen Kasak at that time, which Wiki tells was a remake of MR, but didn’t leave any impact.
With the regards to the ‘basic plot line’ that is , ‘a girl forced to marry and then coming around to accept the marriage’ several names were mentioned in the comments including Hum Dil De Chuke Sanam.
But no one mentioned Woh 7 Din ( or perhaps if done, I missed the comment).
That was quite an impactful film and I had thoroughly enjoyed it. In fact HDCCS was said to be Woh7Din’s remake.
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Rahini David
August 30, 2016
Deepak Jeswal: Antha Ezhu Natkal means “those 7 days” too and is the original of “Woh 7 Din”. It is also refered to as AEN by MANK and ThouShallNot comment.
On old MR movies feeling dated and all that:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeinfeldIsUnfunny
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 30, 2016
Deepak Jeswal: Woh Saat Din in turn was a remake of the Tamil film Andha Ezhu Naatkal, which is being discussed here.
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Miss Anthropy
August 30, 2016
Just watched this for the first time after reading this article – I guess I’ve just about “discovered” this film for myself (not a Tamilian, but I understand the language… though complex conversation is still beyond me). That said, I really liked this!
Something that occurred to me while watching this re: CK and his apparent lack of emotional logic when it comes to accepting Divya. While I can admit that it’s strange that he practically says yes after she gives him what-for… but I felt like it IS a callback (well… a future-past echo, of sorts) to when Karthik pursues her in a persistent manner even after she gives him a fiery speech that effectively amounts to “No.” (That said, it IS admittedly easier to digest that sort of behaviour from Karthik given his “street” cred; plus, he’s also more handsome, which helps, even if it is superficial).
Second, MR may be subtler compared to its peers, but it is pretty damn heavy-handed at times. Especially the voiceover towards the end when CK hands Divya her tickets, and their thoughts are literally dialogue – I thought the actors’ expressions (especially Revathy’s) were more than effective in conveying those thoughts.
Either way, a sincere “Thank you” to BR for publishing this article and helping me discover this (really nice) movie. Feel like I need to go through Mani Ratnam’s entire filmography, one by one, now.
PS: HDDCS. Guys, please stahp mentioning it here. As much as I like parts of the movie, that scene where Ajay Devgan’s character slaps Aishwarya’s character and drags her around the house pretty much kills the entire film for me. Hell, Aditya Chopra has never been more misogynist in his entire CAREER than SLB at that moment. Ugh.
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MV
August 30, 2016
Nenjathai Killathey had a sour Suhasini with a dour Pratap. Whereas Revathy nailed the brief in Mouna Ragam – a quirky temperamental girl is not going to keep griping all the time over her loss. Her life has room for a dance in the rain, some pranks with a friendly Sardar, awesome crisp sarees and yet when there is a mood swing – out comes the kambilipoochi and divorce.
You have to be (or understand) an ambivert (someone with both extro and introvert tendencies alternating) to get why there’s so much volatility in behavior.
And Karthik – the twinkle in his eyes, his gait, his confidence in the Chandramouly episode… no replacement found till date.
Btw – noticed this – all the men in my family and friends circle seem to rate Mohan’s Chandrakumar higher than Karthik’s Manohar. Whereas us ladies still (as even when in mid thirties) cant go past Karthik to appreciate the other man.
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MANK
August 30, 2016
but I’m not sure if MR be called a ‘creative masterpiece’. It’s very much probable that MR was inspired by NK (given, Mani Ratnam was a strong admirer of Mahendran). ‘Reworking’ would be the right word.*
Honest Raj, i would say that’s only partially true. Being Based on an original thought or subject alone doesnt need to qualify a work to be termed as creative masterpiece or the director to be branded as a creative genius. there is a lot of it that’s new , wrt characterisation – dunno whether we have seen a character like Revathi’s in a film before – ,music, screenplay or direction in the film to regard it as a unique creation on its own.
Come to think of it , all of Mani’s films are derivatives of an existing work.he hasn’t told any original stories like KB,Balu mahendra or Mahendran. Or even like Kamal -Hey Ram,Virumandi- or (god i never thought i would live to say this ) Bhagyaraj. in spite of the fact that all of Mani’s films are reworking of an existing film ,myth or real life story , his films are all personal films. they carry their own signature and stamp of creativity
We were discussing on the Mohenjodaro thread that how Ashutosh Gowarikar was more a new concept man. he does think up these new concepts and ideas. but what the hell is the use if the result is like what’s your rasheee or MJD itself. the same applies for films like Dasavatharam,uttama villain or Aalavandham- wonderful fresh concepts , but hell the execution is terrible.
Mani always works the other way around. he takes a subject that the audience are familiar with and fills it up with his own personality. which explains the great commercial success he had over the years with his films because his aesthetic has never been the audience pleasing or rather audience pandering kind. its the Salim-Javed approach . the writer duo always bragged about the fact that they were so successful because they never told an unfamiliar story . they took familiar stories and punched it up with a great screenplay structure, characters and unique dialogues.The screenplays of Dewaar and Sholay are considered the best ever written in this country, but if you whittle it down to its basics, then then these films would emerge as reworking of Mother India or Ganga Jamuna. i dont think that would be make the SJ duo any less of a creative geniuses that they were.
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MANK
August 30, 2016
If a star like Kamal restricts himself to films like Moondram Pirai, Nayagan, Hey Ram, et al., they cannot sustain in the industry*
Agreed, what i wanted to point out there was the fact that Nayagan was a milestone in kamal’s career too. after that even the quality of his mainstream commercial films improved. they were more ASahodarangal,MMKR or even Vettri vizha or satya – films that were 100 times better than Nanum oru thozhilali or Mangamma sabatham. And yes it was a remake of Kasam paida karnewale ki. whatever possessed kamal to remake that film is beyond me . the only thing going for that film was the rocking soundtrack composed by Bhappida – which in his usual style was copied from several western songs. but O Beraham, Jeena Bhi Kya,Jhoom Jhoom Baba were charbusters. the tamil version didnt even have that with Shankar ganesh belting out songs like cola cola coco cola.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
August 30, 2016
MV : I think this is one role which is a perfect fit for Mohan. It lends itself well to underplaying. I recall a Brooke Bond 3 Roses Tea ad where he (Mohan) does this very effectively changing his expression from sad to normal in a nano second.
I think Kamal would have stunk up the part – no fault of his since his natural intensity and presence would have been counterproductive to the demands of the role.
To digress a bit – My favourite dance (???) step in Mouna Ragam is in “Chinna Chinna” in the second musical interlude where you have a lone string instrument heralding the sunset and a lovely crane shot which takes you up from the plain to see the deep incline which lies further and ……Mohan walking past the dance extras like a chief guest inspecting a Guard of Honour :):)
https://thezolazone.wordpress.com/2016/04/23/cartoon-which-is-better-the-book-or-the-movie/
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MANK
August 30, 2016
MR may be subtler compared to its peers, but it is pretty damn heavy-handed at times. Especially the voiceover towards the end when CK hands Divya her tickets,
I think it was the rawness of Mani at the time, because i never seen him using that technique ever again (none that i can remember right away). he has remained a purely visual director. you can see that a lot in the Gautham menon films though
Nayagan really looks like a poor effort when compared to Godfather, Goodfellas, Satya, Company. Satya had superb characterization, drama and operation details of how mafia operates
there are certain aspects of nayakan that are dated. the songs in the film are a big problem. the only song in the film should have been Thenpandi Cheemayile and may be Naan Sirithal Deepavali, -bcoz its set in a brothel its not much of a mood killer-. but the other songs, particularly Nila Adhu Vanathumele and the holi song brings the film down by several notches.
Again, it was Mani in his early days as a film maker. he was still coming to grips about meshing the songs with the narrative and something that he would remain uncomfortable throughout his filmography.
But i dont think that the film lacks in drama . Regarding characterisation and operation details of mafia, its not the kind of film like Goodfellas or Satya or even the godfather films which are more like gangster procedurals and ensemble dramas.. Nayagan is more of a (single) character driven masala movie albeit filtered though Mani’s art house sensibilities.. Its more myth than real. if we just take the vito corleone portions alone from godfather 1 and 2 and combine it together , the narrative structure will be a lot like Nayakan.
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sanjana
August 30, 2016
There is a lot of buzz over Ae Dil hai mushkil from Karan Johar. And lots of expectations.
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udhaysankar
August 30, 2016
Mank: Andhi Mazhai megam was really good for the movie. It is a sort of payoff or a culmination for velu’s efforts like protecting their lands, protecting their livelihood, sort of a thank you song that they couldn’t resist singing for velu. And velu enjoys it cause, this is what he wanted for them.. Happiness, despite all their struggles in an alien city, that they made their home.
It is also similar to the celebration of life sequence in aayirathil oruvan. The future might be uncertain, the present might be loaded with problems, but you need to take moments off to be happy and celebrate.
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blurb
August 30, 2016
sanjana – I look forward to seeing Ranbir Kapoor. I sometimes feel his career graph seems somewhat similar to Abhishek’s, and that’s much to my distress. Of course, Ranbir’s high have been much more soaring and epic than Abhishek’s — but it is also undeniable that Abhishek is a great actor and gave some superb performances. I think he has a lot of potential, but he choices are terrible. All is well? Bol Bachchan? Really? I don’t know what happened exactly, but it’s been downhill since 2009 for him (maybe post the debacle that was Raavan).
I really hope this doesn’t happen to Ranbir. He is a gem of a talent as well, and for his sake, I hope this movie works. Because 4 or 5 years of failures can really take a toll on someone. And they might end up making a streak of wrong choices, loose faith …
Aside – “All is well? Uh, not really!” – was BR’s title, if I remember correctly. I remember rotfl-ing when I read that 😀
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Kid
August 30, 2016
Miss Anthropy: There is absolutely NOTHING misogynistic about HDDCS (or, for that matter, any SLB film). Firstly I don’t recall Devgn slapping Aishwarya (not that a slap should become the sole criteria for judging films on grounds of misogyny etc! What a bloody bizarro logic?!), but just after he drags her around the house (that too after he finds her reading the letter…actually it would be odd if he wouldn’t have been angry), in the very next scene we get to know that Devgn is going to take her to Italy to reunite her with Salman (who is her romantic interest). As far as I am concerned this is a remarkably progressive gesture by SLB (also the funny thing here is that it is Aishwarya who slaps Salman in HDDCS, albeit accidently)
BTW your entire statement on HDDCS is the prime example of what I consider to be the worst way of accessing or entering into a film. Though having read your comments on the Rustom thread, I can’t say I am surprised.
Here is the scene you are talking about. Watch from around the 6:00 mark (the entire video is subtitled btw)::
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shaviswa
August 30, 2016
In Nayakan, if you were to edit out songs, you had to do that to “Nee oru kaadhal…” and to the Nila athu vanathumelae songs.
Even Nila athu vanathu melae could have been used with a little more imagination. They could have started the fun with Kuili dancing but the moment they realized coast guard was around the song should have been pushed to the background and the action taking over. something to that effect. They just had to wait for Kuili to finish her dance and then the action takes over – a bit of a dampener to the screenplay at that stage.
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Madan
August 30, 2016
” he was still coming to grips about meshing the songs with the narrative” – In Nayakan, I think Ilayaraja tried a bit too hard to adapt the songs to the film and it didn’t work so well. I mean, I don’t find them as memorable as his other work with Mani though they are not bad songs at all. But yes, Mani should have had fewer slots for songs in the first place. They didn’t hurt at all on Idhaya Kovil and Idhayathai Thirudadhe 😀 (maybe the appearance of the dreaded word Idhayam gives a clue!).
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Shankar
August 31, 2016
“In Nayakan, I think Ilayaraja tried a bit too hard to adapt the songs to the film and it didn’t work so well” – ROFL! (sorry couldn’t resist that). Baddy, these are the moments when I feel I don’t miss the comments space at all! 🙂
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Deepak Jeswal
August 31, 2016
Honest Raj and Rahini : Oh ok. Thanks. Wasn’t aware of this. Thanks for the info 🙂
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Deepak Jeswal
August 31, 2016
From the plot line I read, Ae Dil Hai Mushkil seems to hv shades of Doosra Aadmi. An older woman getting close to a younger one who resembles her dead lover. But ya it’s too early to say. And this too I read on Twitter so can’t be sure. Doosra Aadmi had a brilliant casting in the sense Rishi and Shashi Kapoor being related, the similarity in personality was very credible and believable. SRK/Ranbir in same roles will be tough to pass off, that is if all this is true. Pure speculation :-p
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brangan
August 31, 2016
Shankar: Yes, I too have been baffled by this dismissal of Nayakan’s songs. Each one of them is beautifully placed in the screenplay, and have not just a narrative function but also say something about character or milieu.
For instance, an item number is a part of mainstream cinema, so no one would have questioned Nila adhu when it appeared. But note that Janakaraj’s character has been shown to be an, um, connoisseur of women. He’s the one who takes Kamal to the brothel and there we see his easy familiarity with the sex workers. So it’s entirely in character that he’d have stashed away some “entertainment value” for himself on a long boat ride.
Kamal’s character, too, is entirely in character. He was uncomfortable in the brothel. and here too he barely glances at the dancer. He’s just focused on his work.
How many films — even today — ground their songs so well?
Or take Andhi mazhai megam. It’s a celebratory song for the slum’s hero — “nayakan” — but it’s also a reminder that these Tamils are not in a place that’s traditionally “Tamil.” The song begins with Holi colours, and we are reminded throughout of the fact that they have assimilated into an “alien environment,” which is a running subtext with Velu Nayakar.
I could go on…
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
August 31, 2016
And the ‘Nee Oru Kadhal Sangeetham’ pretty much condenses the passage of time from the wedding of Kamal and Sharanya upto the time their children are grown.
“You shouldnt be ashamed of songs. Its a good way to go out and try something exciting” (Mani Rathnam)
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 31, 2016
MANK: i would say that’s only partially true. Being Based on an original thought or subject alone doesnt need to qualify a work to be termed as creative masterpiece or the director to be branded as a creative genius. there is a lot of it that’s new , wrt characterisation – dunno whether we have seen a character like Revathi’s in a film before – ,music, screenplay or direction in the film to regard it as a unique creation on its own.
I didn’t mean ‘creative’ works are the ones that have zero influences. In that sense, only a handful of films would seem to fit the bill. Bharathiraaja and Bhagyaraj would easily top the ‘Most creative artists of the 20th century’ list. 🙂 MR might be a ‘well-made’ film, but given some of the striking similarities with NK, I’m finding it hard to place it in the same league as Agni, Roja, Bombay, Dil Se., or even Alaipayuthey & OKK. Second, I don’t understand why most of our filmmakers (Tamil in particular) are very much obsessed with the ‘story-screenplay-dialogue-direction’ tag. Even if they are remaking a popular film from another language, they credit the ‘story’ to themselves. Case in point, P. Vasu – the stories of Nadigan, Mannan and Chandramukhi are wholly credited to him!
Mahendran and Balu Mahendra – who successfully adapted novels into films – never failed to credit the original writers in their films. Ditto with KB, who made films based on plays. In fact, the title cards of Poottadha Poottukkal begin with the original writer’s name (might be an indication that story is the real hero of the film). Even in a film like Charulata (it’s worth discussing here for many reasons), Ray could’ve ignored Tagore’s novella and claimed it as his own story.
To the best of my knowledge, Mani Ratnam hasn’t made films based on novels. I’m not saying that he should do that in order to prove his worth as a filmmaker, but when you claim yourself to be a writer (not just a director) it becomes an important thing. Even in a film like Thalapathy, we have this ‘story-screenplay-dialogue-direction’ thing.- there are no credits to the epic.
As an aside, read the bit in CWMR where he expresses his disappointment working in Unaru and IK.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 31, 2016
I’m a huge fan of “Andhi Mazhai Megam”. Not sure about the placements of other songs, but “Nee oru Kaadhal Sangeetham” perfectly blends into the narrative.
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Kid
August 31, 2016
Honest Raj: Thalapathi “need not” be read as the story of Karna…it works without the underpinnings as well. Unlike Hum Paanch (or the original Kanagal film), there are not a lot of “direct” references here (this is not Raavanan). Infact reading it only from the Karna-Mahabharata angle actually does a great disservice to the film.
On Ray, I think he is possibly/arguably the greatest director in the world when it comes to adapting novels (He is so good that his “films” can be read as “parallel texts” with respect to the original books/novels). I also think that he is the best director when it comes to working with children.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 31, 2016
Agreed, what i wanted to point out there was the fact that Nayagan was a milestone in kamal’s career too. after that even the quality of his mainstream commercial films improved. they were more ASahodarangal,MMKR or even Vettri vizha or satya – films that were 100 times better than Nanum oru thozhilali or Mangamma sabatham. And yes it was a remake of Kasam paida karnewale ki. whatever possessed kamal to remake that film is beyond me . the only thing going for that film was the rocking soundtrack composed by Bhappida – which in his usual style was copied from several western songs. but O Beraham, Jeena Bhi Kya,Jhoom Jhoom Baba were charbusters. the tamil version didnt even have that with Shankar ganesh belting out songs like cola cola coco cola.
Ha, but majority of these films were remade from Bollywood and Tollywood. Despite being a Rajini fan, I cannot sit and watch films like Sivappu Sooriyan, Naan Mahaan Alla, Oorkavalan, Moondru Mugam, Maaveeran, et al., But every star has done such films, no? I’m guessing that even Mammootty and Mohanlal must have done such films (that too at the peak of their careers).
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brangan
August 31, 2016
Yes, this is another thing I don’t get. Kamal did many bad films, yes, but amidst these “commercial” outings, we also got films that — if not Kamal-esque in the ‘Hey Ram’ or ‘Virumaandi’ sense — were certainly leagues above the commercial stuff of the time, even if only in ambition (Vikram).
A month before Nayakan, we had Pushpak, the previous year we had Punnagai Mannan and Swathi Muthyam, the previous year we had Oru Kaidhiyin Diary….
So it’s not like Nayakan re-branded Kamal’s oeuvre. He was always doing interesting stuff.
What happened after Nayakan was that he decided to do one film at a time, and I guess the (relative) success of Nayakan made it easier for him to pursue more auteuristic projects.
But Kamal was certainly giving some kind of quality cinema before Nayakan, and the Kaadhal Parisu-s and Mangamma Sabadham-s cannot take away from the Balachander, Vishwanath, Bharathiraja, Balu Mahendra collaborations.
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Madan
August 31, 2016
@ BR: So, to say that I don’t find it as memorable as Raja’s other work with Mani (most of which is amongst his very best) is to dismiss Nayagan’s music? Aren’t you the one who urges people not to make black and white judgments, by the by?
Coming to Nayagan, I didn’t say I don’t find the songs apt for the situation. They are. The problem is in trying to fit the songs to the situations – note the 50s/60s Hindi film music echoes in Nee Oru Kadhal/Andhi Mazhai Megam also has shades of old Hindi songs – they are not so emotionally resonant standalone. I can only listen to Nayagan songs when I am watching the film, with maybe the except of Nee Oru Kadhal and that is not helped by Mano’s laboured rendition. Basically the same problem as R D Burman’s music for Sholay. Sure, it was great while watching the film but outside of it not so much. Of course you can argue film songs are meant to accompany the film situation only but we know IR tracks transcend the scene and often the film itself. Maybe that might have happened for me if I actually liked Kamal’s singing at all, which I don’t.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 31, 2016
Thalapathi “need not” be read as the story of Karna…it works without the underpinnings as well. Unlike Hum Paanch (or the original Kanagal film), there are not a lot of “direct” references here (this is not Raavanan). Infact reading it only from the Karna-Mahabharata angle actually does a great disservice to the film.
Kid: Thalapathi has more ‘references’ than Kanagals’ film – the sun, Kunti, Duryodhana, Draupadi, and Arjuna. They cannot be dismissed as mere coincidences. Agree, the film isn’t a modern ‘retelling’ of the epic, but where do we draw the line between ‘story’ and ‘screenplay’? I’ve seen Manavoori Pandavulu (the visually impressive Telugu remake) albeit in bits and pieces. Except for the ‘Pandavas’ reference in the title, there isn’t any connection between the film and the MB at all. The five protagonists of the film are not even brothers.
BR: I think he was probably fed up with Bollywood. Perhaps, Nayakan came at the right time. To me, Soora Samhaaram is the only distasteful Kamal film post Nayakan (if we discount ‘full-length’ comedies like Singaravelan, Maharasan, Kathalaa Kathalaa, et al.,).
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Aditya (Gradwolf)
August 31, 2016
@Honest Raj: What are you saying! Kadhala Kadhala is an absolute classic. It is the only film from that period (of close to two decades?) that actually literally follows the definition of “full length comedy”. I mean, even MMKR has the whole brothers reuniting and the parents angle. But there isn’t a single moment in KK where it takes itself seriously. True art. Always wished people paid more attention to the underrated KK and not to the overrated Panchathanthiram.
(I know you were making your point about “distasteful” film but I just saw this and had to let out my agenda of making Kadhala Kadhala more popular.)
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shaviswa
August 31, 2016
Kathalaa Kathalaa distasteful? Oh my!
IMO it is one of his all time classic comedies.
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MANK
August 31, 2016
Each one of them is beautifully placed in the screenplay, and have not just a narrative function but also say something about character or milieu.
Dunno brangan,. i havent seen the film for some time now, so i cant say whether i would change my opinion, but the last time i saw it , i didntt like the presence of songs ,- and more importantly -their picturisation in nayagan. it didnt add to my viewing experience as it does in his more serious films like thalapathi or Iruvar. i have always felt that the film would have worked much better without so many songs
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Aadhy
August 31, 2016
Kathala Kathala may not be great ‘cinema’, but that beast was one heck of a writer’s (and actors’) showmanship. It has the highest rate of ROFL-worthy moments per scene in Tamil cinema. Crazy’s best cine-work till date, IMO.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 31, 2016
Aditya (Gradwolf): I realise now that I sounded ambiguous. Didn’t mean to say that they are ‘bad’ films, but just wanted to keep them out of contention. Btw, I’m a huge fan of Singaravelan. 🙂 As for Maharasan and KK, I quite like both of them (especially the portions involving Goundamani, Senthil and VKR in the former).
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 31, 2016
Kid: I badly want to ‘like’ your HDDCS comment. Next time, don’t be surprised if somebody calls a film as ‘misogynistic’, purely on the grounds that the hero cannot be taller than the heroine. 🙂 A lot of commenters were happy about Dhansika’s character in Kabali. On a second thought, I was wondering if that’s because of the ‘weight’ (of her character) or the ‘height’ (she looked taller than Rajini in a couple of scenes). 😛
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
August 31, 2016
Aditya (Gradwolf): Totally agree with Panchathanthiram!
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Raj
August 31, 2016
Kadhala Kadhala would have been a better stage drama than a cinema..Adheres to the monotonous template of Crazy Mohan– The whole Murugan episode was crass– MSV was annoying like most others after a point….It was like a assemble of jokes from all CM dramas and let loose on the viewers–
A comedy movie IMO should also be like a thriller where the audience should never know when the creator will try to make them laugh, it should just happen-MMKR/Thillu Mullu are perfect examples… In KK it was evident that the writers wanted to keep hitting the viewers with word play- most of it showed the brilliance of CM as a writer but was nonsense from a movie watching perspective.. I want to watch the movie for what it is and not to appreciate CM’s word play brilliance!!! Just my thought…
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Rohit Sathish Nair
August 31, 2016
MANK: Chettaa, didn’t get how Nayakan was less ‘serious’ than Thalapathi or Iruvar. Did you mean ‘less artistic’ or ‘having a lesser scope’?
Made with artistry or not, ‘Nayagan’ did have at its helm, a director with a voice. Even the ripoffs for Godfather weren’t adapted lazily.
I don’t feel the songs are all that out-of-place in Nayakan. They do serve some function more or less, and even as pit stops, they aren’t all that bad. Naan Siritthaal Deepeavali still looks pretty nice on screen.
I don’t think Janagaraj being a connoisseur of women really has a payoff after all (perhaps Mani sir just trying to draw a parallel with ‘Godfather’ ‘s slightly animalistic Clemenza), but Kamal’s character we can see, not just respect for women, but perhaps unfamiliarity with them beyond a point (other than Shakeela) , which is again why the Saranya-Kamal equation isn’t all that cliched, and ‘Nee Oru Kaadhal Sangeetham’ (real graceful, even the picturisation, esp. the pigeon flock barging in during an intimate moment) does have a slightly extra relevance in the plot. The song somehow does show how Saranya is Kamal’s first proper mother-figure in his life, and how he actually is a saviour, a hero for her. (Juxtapose this with ‘Thalaivaa’, where both Vijays spell it out: ‘Enakku enn pondatti amma maathiri thaan aaganum’. You see that ‘Nayagan’ still isn’t all that ordinary when seen today)
Velu’s relationships with women is shown as crucial, yet in a somewhat understated manner.
We see how each stage of his life ends with the loss, or walking out of a woman from his life
This is something where even Coppola got all literal with Michael, courtesy that montage at the end of Godfather 3.
Maybe all this didn’t really come together ‘coz Mani the director was yet to catch up with Mani the writer (Maybe wrong, my view)
For all its problems and somewhat feeling dated on watching today, Nayagan still remains a ‘glass 3-quarters full’ movie for me, largely thanks to Kamal.
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Shankar
August 31, 2016
@Madan, I’m not the kind who thread-picks people’s comments but what you are saying is extremely confusing.
“In Nayakan, I think Ilayaraja tried a bit too hard to adapt the songs to the film and it didn’t work so well” – This comment is about the aptness of the music and the composer, not the aptness of the situations for the songs from Mani’s perspective though that is what MANK was describing earlier. You don’t have to like Nayagan’s music, that is perfectly fine.
“Coming to Nayagan, I didn’t say I don’t find the songs apt for the situation. They are. The problem is in trying to fit the songs to the situations – note the 50s/60s Hindi film music echoes in Nee Oru Kadhal/Andhi Mazhai Megam also has shades of old Hindi songs – they are not so emotionally resonant standalone.” – Now you are saying that the songs are apt but Mani has no clue trying to fit them in the situation. But then again, you start talking about the quality of the music in terms of shades of 60s Hindi music etc. You do realize that Nayagan is a story approximately set in 60s/70s/80s era (with the antique cars and sets in the earlier part of the film), about a tamil community settled in Bombay. So, there is enough justification for songs having shades of old Hindi music (though I’d find it hard to accept something like Nee oru kadhal sounds like anything in Hindi) which should be even more of a credit for the score.
I agree with Baddy on what he said about the songs and the situations. For the record, I think Raja gave superb compositions for the film, including an exemplary background score.
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Shankar
August 31, 2016
This single clip is enough to highlight the score in the film:
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Tambi Dude
September 1, 2016
I saw the clip above by Shankar and I feel annoyed by Kamal’s method acting. That attempt to say something and then a momentary pause. I am sick of it now.
There was a time when Kamal was natural (16 Vayathinile, Kalayanraman) and he abstained from method acting.
To understand why Kamal like this, one has to recollect the scene from Ardh Satya (the same one I described above). Smita Patil says “dekho insaan kya hai aur kiya kaam karta hain, in dono mein koi farak nahin rehta) (what a man is, and what he does for a living, there is hardly any difference between them). Kamal’s ego got a massive booster shot in 1980s when bollywood heaped praises on him as if na bhuto na bhavishayati (neither before nor after) there has been an actor like him. From AB, Dimple Kapadia, Anil Kapoor, Shashi Kapoor, every big name were going ga-ga.
Ironically this happened after he was rejected by bollywood. I reject it as a coincidence that his experiments with dwarf, ugly old man (buck tooth) , four roles in a movie, 10 roles in a movie and different nonsense started after that ego booster shot. It is as if he is trying to show that why he is leagues above all other actors.
Just how annoying his style is can be judged by watching A Wednesday and Onnaipol Oruvan.
His opinion (mostly worthless) on every issue under the sun and the hero worshiping by his fans has made him .err. quite difficult to tolerate.
However I did enjoy and liked him in few movies like MMMK, Anbe Sivam. But overall, I find many other indian actors better than him.
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Madan
September 1, 2016
@ Shankar: I was responding from a Raja fan’s point of view there when I said it didn’t work so well. Well, to some extent, yes, the problem is the situations Mani created but I feel Raja should have simply gone with his usual flourish instead of trying to bring out the old Hindi music flavour. He stripped down the interludes too much (because old Hindi film songs also had mostly simple interludes). Yes, I am aware of the time period and place in which the film is set on…I live there, ya know. These are only ‘intellectual’ reasons why I am supposed to ‘like’ the music. And for the record, I do. I don’t love it as much as I do the other IR-Mani collaborations because the songs don’t rise to the same level. It’s missing a really aching, haunting male/female solo like Mandram Vandha or Chinna Thayaval. I mean, Thenpandi is supposed to fill that void but it doesn’t work for me with Kamal’s voice. Maybe had IR himself sung it, I might have liked it. And re Nee Oru Kadhal, it is very typical of C Ramachandra type songs or even the local Marathi songs. But you have to have lived there to make the connection. I know what he was going for there, but I don’t really like C R’s music. I don’t understand why he was hyped so much (ok, again I sort of do in terms of the new influences he brought to the table but the music was mostly boring) and am thankful Naushad and Shankar Jaikishen surpassed him.
I don’t have any problems with the background score. It was great.
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bogeygolf
September 1, 2016
wow ! surprised to see that the mouna ragam thread is still running “full house” !
ok. wanted to bring up 2t things,
Of the 5 songs, i remember that the “chinna chinna vanna kuyil” was the most sensational of the lot. I remember seeing it on the posters around town also. It set a trend of using native costumes and stuff. There have been innumerable copycats after that in tamil films using the decked out bullock cart and heroine in “lambadi” costume !
The house that the movie was shot had a very contemporary architecture. I remember having conversations with my friends about it. It had floor to ceiling windows, a very mod door and beautifully designed stairs. The decor and furniture was also very contemporary. With slat beds and such. I almost feel it was a character in the movie. Would be curious to know about it and how Mani selected it.
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Madan
September 1, 2016
Or better yet, SPB himself. I mean, what’s wrong with this?
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MV
September 1, 2016
Happened to watch Ae Udi Udi from Saathiya which clearly showed how Mani can take a plain frame and either deck it up or dress it down for the filmy situation. While the Hindi version was mostly follwing the template from Kaadhal Sadugudu – Alaipayuthey, there was a huge difference in the mood created.
Where Maddy and Shalini have goofy fun, Vivek and Rani (equally cute in terms of appeal, as actors) come across all made up and kinky.
No one comes close – even GVM who is supposedly following Mani’s trail, us miles away from Mani’s sensibilities. IMHO.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
September 1, 2016
Aditya (Gradwolf) : Not sure I agree with you entirely on MMKR. Every time there was a hint of sentiment Crazy made sure that the comedy pulled it back by the scruff of its neck.
For instance in the reunion scene that you mention, Michael says “Yenga Amma – NAMMA Amma ” (sentiment). Immediately Madan’s father whispers “NAMMA Appa”.
Got this bit after watching it on TV for the nth time. Didnt notice it before.
https://thezolazone.wordpress.com/2015/10/24/25-years-of-michael-madana-kama-rajan-a-celebration-part-iii/
https://thezolazone.wordpress.com/2016/09/01/cartoon-foreign-visit-gone-wrong/
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MANK
September 1, 2016
What happened after Nayakan was that he decided to do one film at a time, and I guess the (relative) success of Nayakan made it easier for him to pursue more auteuristic projects.
Brangan ,that was the main point i was making. i know he has done interesting stuff before. i dont claim to have seen all his films, but i have seen just enough to be aware of the fact he was part of ambitious artistic works right from the beginning, whether it was in malayalam or tamil
Right from the beginning of his innings as an adult actor, kamal has been trying to take control of his career in to his own hands – by writing & producing his own films. Rajaparvai – one of my favorite kamal performances- was his first attempt towards that. its failure not only bankrupted him but changed the course of his career as he began to pursue more crass commercial films. and the mega success of sakalakalavallavan ensured that he was going to be on that path for quite a while. yes between SV and Nayagan, he was a constant presence in KB films. also worked with directors like Balu mahendra and K.Viswanth. but they were more the exception than the rule.
The again in 86, he tried to launch his own production company with Vikram- which is as you say was an ambitious film-, but that was a failure too. And it was really the success of Nayagan that finally lead to him taking complete creative control of his own films, by almost exclusivising himself to his own banner – even when he did work for outside banners – like mahanadi,… – he made sure that he had the creative control -and not just the films he starred in but also writing producing and distributing films without him. he and his rajkamal banner was the most dominant creative force in the tamil film industry for a long time , at least till the release of Hey Ram.
Post the success of Nayakan,i do think there was a zeitgeist change vis a vis tamil films – how it was made, perceived and consumed. in that atmosphere, Kamal seized the moment more than mani – who moved on to agninakshatram , geetanjali,..- to pursue his auteristic ambitions. so personal films became the rule, and the more commercial films like Kalaingan or tenali were the exceptions in his career post nayakan. he never again made the kadal parisu -mangamma sabatham level drivel even films that one considers as below par were more Aalavandham, dasavatharam kind, what one would call as ambitious failures.
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Anu
September 1, 2016
Madan, Naushad and SJ surpassed CR?! Okay, then. 🙂
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Aditya (Gradwolf)
September 1, 2016
@Tambi Dude: Thank God for that ego boost! Wouldn’t trade it for anything considering it has given us the 1988-2004 oeuvre of Kamal Haasan.
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Shankar
September 1, 2016
@Madan, I respect your views about the songs and the fact that you are not a big fan of them. However, I’d like to clarify couple of things. I have lived “there” as well and do understand the connection.Also, there is an Ilayaraja version of Thenpaandi.
I have a general viewpoint when it comes to things like this. In some cases, it doesn’t help looking at things with a modern lens simply because it’s just not possible for someone from a different era to truly get it. When Baddy talks about Mani channeling the Madras teenager or Agni being a defining film for teenagers of that era, you had to be one at that time to truly get it. I feel the same about Malayalam films, you had to have lived there to understand the milieu, at least for the 80s films. I felt it when some commenters were pulling stats out of their backends while debating about Raja’s popularity in the 80s, in the Raja thread a few months ago. You just had to be there at that time to appreciate what the man was doing. I’m not sure if you fall into that category but when it comes to Nayagan, the music was very fresh for those times simply because it blended so well into the narrative and time period. The movie itself picked up at the box-office after word of mouth. I remember my friend coming back after watching the first show and declaring that it was a different movie, very arty and not sure if it would succeed. It’s competition (both released on the same day) was the terrible Manithan, which was a blockbuster. All I can remember about it were the silver grenades dangling from Rajini’s leather outfit! 🙂 So, I feel that from a score perspective, it was a complete film since it blended so well. So, I guess it’s a different sensibility, standalone vs blending.
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Madan
September 1, 2016
@ Shankar: Fair point in general, though I don’t agree with the “you had to be there” (no, it’s more like you had to be there to perhaps like it the same way the people did at the time, doesn’t make my perspective any less valid). I would like to clarify here that I am very much a Raja fan and you probably know me by another name on the Raja forum. I was learning to walk and talk English when Nayagan came out but I was still just about old enough to register the tail end of Raja’s reign at the top (have watched Singaravelan in Udhayam theater). So I don’t think mine is so much a modern perspective as a musicophile one, as in I am era-agnostic. I like music from the 50s coming up to the present day in English, Hindi and Tamil (but Tamil mostly just Raja as far as contemporary goes). When it comes to Raja, I treat the interludes as the main course. I know he is a marvellous tunesmith so this is not me saying he is mainly an orchestrator and all that stuff that detractors pull out. Just that it is in all the surprises he comes up with in the interludes that he ascends to a place far out of reach of any of his peers or predecessors in Indian film music. If I contrast Thenpandi with Thulli Yezhunthathu Paatu (both melancholic lullabies), the interludes in the latter are simply brilliant. For whatever reason, Ilayaraja downplayed the interludes in Nayagan. Maybe Mani wanted it that way. Whatever be the reason, it doesn’t interest me as much as other Mani soundtracks where it seems Raja was able to satisfy Mani’s requirements while simultaneously also giving himself free rein. That is basically the point I am making about the Nayagan songs. It may have received a rip-roaring reception in its time and fair enough but I prefer the other MR-IR collaborations. I do of course prefer Nayagan songs to a relatively dull album like Uzhaipaali, goes without saying. I don’t really find the Nayagan songs to be an indispensable part of my Raja collection. I could and do go without listening to them for days, maybe months on end without missing them one bit.
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Anu
September 1, 2016
Can someone tell me if Mani ever acknowledged that “Anjali” was based on the book “Welcome home Jellybean”. Been trying to find that bit of info. but no luck till now. Thank you so mcuh.
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shaviswa
September 1, 2016
@Madan I agree with you about Nayagan’s music. I like the songs while watching the film. But I can never listen to them just as audio. Even a song like Nee Oru Kadhal…I tend to hit the next button. I do not have any of the other songs from Nayagan in my audio albums.
so while the music was apt for the film, it does not qualify to be a great album.
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MANK
September 1, 2016
didn’t get how Nayakan was less ‘serious’ than Thalapathi or Iruvar. Did you mean ‘less artistic’ or ‘having a lesser scope’?
Rohit,Quite the contrary. i consider nayagan to be as serious as thalapathi or iruvar or may be even more so. i think i didn’t convey it properly in my early comment. its something i dashed off in a hurry .
All these 3 films are serious dramatic films as opposed to romantic dramas – like MR or alaypayuthey- where songs can be integrated easily in to the narrative. i could not only embrace the songs in thalapathi and Iruvar but i would say that those films wouldnt have been so effective without them . But in the case of nayagan, not only the fact that the songs didnt add anything for me but lessen the impact of the film in many places.
there are several reasons for that. one as you said, Mani was still learning the ropes and eventhough he had become a great director by that film, he still wasnt good at integrating songs or picturising them. he had the concept for them pat down – as Brangan was pointing out how well the songs are conceived and placed in the narrative to reflect character and plot- but the execution was far from satisfactory imo. there was an imbalance in him towards more being an conceptualizer than an executioner wrt songs . nila adhu is one of his worst picturised songs on par with adiye in kadal. that scene would have worked much better without that song. it could have been such a tense scene with the coast guard closing on them
Another reason would be with the respective nature of their subject matter..Iruvar was a story of a movie star turned political leader and so the songs fit very well in that milieu . while thalapthi was about gangsters and lawmen , it was presented as a grand opera it also had an aura of a fantasy , especially since it was adapted from a familiar epic .
But the main thing is that , by the time he made thalapathi , MR was a much much better director than he was in Nayakan, but most importantly he had become much more comfortable in picturising songs and meshing them in to the narrative. the executioner in him has become on par with the conceptualiser.you just have to compare the songs in the film with that of nayagan to see the contrast.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
September 1, 2016
Madan: You may or may not like Uzhaippali, but I wonder what made you think that the songs sound ‘dull’. IMO, it’s too perfect for a masala film. The BGM that accompanies the opening credits of the film (the score is credited to Karthik Raja though) is among his all-time greats:
Anu: The story is credited to Mani Ratnam. No ‘explicit’ acknowledgements were made – there might be ‘implicit’ ones though. And, there’s a ‘homage’ to Spielberg’s ET in the song “Vegam Vegam”. 🙂
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MANK
September 1, 2016
I don’t understand why most of our filmmakers (Tamil in particular) are very much obsessed with the ‘story-screenplay-dialogue-direction’ tag. Even if they are remaking a popular film from another language, they credit the ‘story’ to themselves
Honest Raj, well that’s called the director ego.:) . its so silly and stupid for Vasu to claim story credit for those films. we dont have a writers guild arbitration like in the west to arbitrate on these matters.so its a free for all out here as far as credit grabbing .But i dont think Mani needed to explicitly acknowledge MB in the credits. MB is public property something which audience are familiar with. i dont think, filmmakers in the west always acknowledges their hamlet,Macbeth inspirations
Reg: ET, its the first time i am hearing about the Welcome home Jellybean influence. all this time i thought it was inspired by ET.
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shaviswa
September 1, 2016
@MANK I do not agree about Thalapathy. The Rakkamma kaiya thattu song was more popular thanks to the music. It was otherwise dragging the film down.
similarly, everytime I watch Thalapathy, I either step out during the Sundari Kannaal Oru Sethi song or skip the song. It is such a loooong song adding nothing to the narrative. The songs are all fantastic no doubt but not in the film.
IMO Thalapathy songs are the opposite of Nayagan. while I can watch the Nayagan songs in the film but can never listen to them, Thalapathy is exactly the opposite.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
September 2, 2016
But i dont think Mani needed to explicitly acknowledge MB in the credits. MB is public property something which audience are familiar with. i dont think, filmmakers in the west always acknowledges their hamlet,Macbeth inspirations
MANK: Agree, that’s not necessary but my beef is about the ‘story’ bit. Something like ‘Written & directed by X’ (the Hollywood style) would suffice. In later films – like Aayutha Ezhuthu and Guru – there are no credits to the story. 🙂
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MANK
September 2, 2016
shaviswa, really ?. huh, i guess ill have to do for thalapathi what Brangan did for Nayagan 🙂
well for one, the songs are fantastic and perhaps the best of IR-MR collaboration . i would go one step ahead and say that the soundtrack of the film with the mixture of songs and BGM is one of the greatest i have ever heard in world cinema and blends in with the film so perfectly. secondly the picturisation of the songs are a tour de force in mixing all the essential cinematic elements- photography,editing, Prod. Design, and choreography, the best i have ever seen.
And thirdly, All the songs serve multiple purposes at the same time in the narrative from simply providing entertainment or relief from the high voltage drama, develop the story and establish characters , convey mood ,.. etc which rarely happens nowadays- were songs are used for one purpose alone- and which was done more often in old classics like Mother India, Mughal-e-azam or Guide.
Just take the sundari kannal song. the song works for me on so many different levels . Not least the fact that its visually stunning (man how could you step out of the theater when that song is playing, really how could you ? 🙂 ). its a song about love and war – which is the main theme of the film – with Rajni dressed up as a samurai. . the samurai backdrop is not merely used as an exotic setting for the song . it relates to the film and the character of rajni in so many ways. , in his obsessive devotion to his friend \master figure of deva.He is like a modern samurai. its also Mani’s acknowledgement of the Kurosawa influences that are all over that film you can find that in the both the screenplay structure and in his takings . the framing and lighting is very much inspired from kurosawa imo and so is Rajni’s Toshiro mifuneseque performance . the song works like a mini meta movie within the movie.
or rakamma kaiyya thattu song,which starts out as slum dwellers celebrating at the end of the day and ends with the introduction of shobhana’s , both in to the film and into Rajni’s life. it immediately establishes both her character as well as the caste and class differences between her and Rajni , just by their contrasting styles in their singing and dancing
And as Brangan said, i could go on but i guess i rather stop. anyway the appeal of these concepts are very subjective . what works for me may not work for you and vice versa. we bring a lot of our traits, tastes and personal experiences in appreciating these things . so i can understand what you are saying here.
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Anu
September 2, 2016
MANK: I have actually read the book “Welcome Home Jellybean” – the part about bringing Anjali home and the events thereafter including the ex-con is all from that book. Here is Wikipedia’s link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_Home,_Jellybean
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Shankar
September 2, 2016
@Madan, not to keep harping on the same theme, but I’m not sure why you said this “Fair point in general, though I don’t agree with the “you had to be there””. You yourself said it a comment ago “But you have to have lived there to make the connection”. In any case, I understand your general point, so we can let it pass. Also, it doesn’t matter whose fan one is, we are just talking about the effectiveness of songs, whether be standalone or blended into the film.
@MANK, though I’d tend to agree that directors get better with experience, I’d still say that songs are a huge problem in Mani’s films. “September madham” is still as cringe-worthy as it was when it released, both song and placement. Even Mouna Ragam has one of those…”Pani vizhum” where the picturisation and choreography is embarassing. Mani himself has said that those are the compromises he has had to make as a popular film maker. I don’t think he is claiming that he is an auteur, we are the ones putting him on a pedestal, for justifiable reasons. Ultimately, it comes to us…some of us like the songs in a film and some of don’t. That’s okay.
@Baddy, thanks for the Vikram nod. What a super fun movie, despite all its problems! Sujatha’s contributions to the film are so evident (for those times!). I even read the serialised weekly chapters that used to come on Vikatan or Kumudham (can’t remember).
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Madan
September 2, 2016
“You may or may not like Uzhaippali, but I wonder what made you think that the songs sound ‘dull’.” – I said RELATIVELY dull, as in compared to an album of the quality of Nayagan. Pl do not conveniently omit the qualifiers I carefully put in. I am not given to making blanket statements, esp when it comes to Raja’s music. Eh, I thought both Kolakilli and Muthirai Eppodhu were extremely by the numbers, esp the latter. Even by Rajni masala standards, he has done much better, Mannan, for instance. I only like Oru Myna and even then not as much as Rajathi Raja from Mannan; some of the tones used in Oru Myna are already getting to be uncharacteristically loud and distracting for Raja.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
September 2, 2016
Comparing Nayagan and Uzhaippali is akin to comparing Muralitharan with Lasith Malinga.
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satishkvasan
September 2, 2016
And the Anjali poster is straight from the wonderful book – Mr. God, this is Anna
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shaviswa
September 2, 2016
@MANK I completely agree with you that Sundari Kannaal is wonderfully choreographed and picturized. And yes an IR kalyani gem with SPB and Chitra at their best. But it is a pretty long song and tests your patience as you want to get on with the movie plot. The plot does not move an inch in that song. Whereas, Nayagan songs are integral to the plot (except Nila athu vaanathu melae which could have been pruned to a minute or so).
Raakkamma kaiya thattu song was not impressive at all. And it is exactly that contrast with Shobana that I felt was amateurish. It was so obvious that Mani Ratnam wanted to display their caste difference through that song. OTOH Kaattukuyilu song by Rajni and Mammootty works very well. It brings out their relationship and also gives Mammootty some scope to show some softer emotions.
As I had mentioned, I can listen to Thalapathy songs any number of times even today. But Nayagan – I prefer it as part of the film. I like them both but in different ways.
PS: I have not seen Kurosawa or any of those films. But to see Rajini in that Samurai get-up was laugh worthy. I remember the entire cinema hall squeal in laughter when he makes his appearance in that song. 😀
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MANK
September 2, 2016
Anu. Thanks for the link. It’s the first time I am hearing about this. Reading the premise it struck me how similar it is to the story of Anjali
Shankar,you are dead right about September matham and panivizhm. They are embarrassing. I think he had planned alaypayuthe without songs but he changed his mind at the last minute.
And Yes how we consume songs in the context of a film depends a lot on how we are wired. There isn’t much point in arguing about it too much.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
September 2, 2016
“Sundari Kannaal” was rendered by SPB and Janaki.
IMO, “Yamunai aatriley” is the best ‘picturized’ song in the film.
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Madan
September 2, 2016
“Comparing Nayagan and Uzhaippali is akin to comparing Muralitharan with Lasith Malinga.” – I pretty much agree on this but that helps make my point as I was only making the comparison to place where I rank Nayagan. Yeah, maybe equivalent to Murali (where Mouna Raagam/Agni would be my Shane Warne).
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Madan
September 2, 2016
“but I’m not sure why you said this “Fair point in general, though I don’t agree with the “you had to be there””. You yourself said it a comment ago “But you have to have lived there to make the connection”. ” – I am sorry about that one as I put it very badly. I was really tired yesterday and last few days actually, hectic week. Not hectic enough not to get on the comments section, sadly. 😛 The point I was making was you have to have lived in Mumbai to immediately make the connection to the regional influence in a song which you, for instance, find hard to associate with Hindi music. It’s more of an ‘objective’ aspect to the limited extent that anything about music can be objective. There are specific sections of music, esp in the first interlude, which highlight what effect IR was hoping to achieve in that song. The connection does not cease to exist only because you did not pick it up, all it means is you do not feel the connection as strongly as I do because our cultural experiences may be different. Somebody who has never heard J S Bach in his life would obviously not be aware of the Bach signatures percolating into IR’s music but it doesn’t mean that didn’t happen. OK, I will modify what I said earlier to the effect that if you have extensively heard Hindi music of the 50s and 60s too, you can make the connection. The only difference in being a long time Mumbaiite is you get exposed to it much more regularly (and not just when you have made a proactive effort to listen to those songs) and also to local Marathi songs. On similar lines, I am far more familiar with old (MSV/TKR) Tamil songs than I am myself aware of because the memory of ‘involuntarily’ listening to it when mom used to play old audiotapes is still embedded in the system. I rarely actively seek out MSV songs to listen to but I am familiar with many of the classic simply in this way.
I disagree, however, with the notion that one should have actually been around at the time to ‘truly’ appreciate an album. That means no music can truly be timeless and we know that is not true; on the contrary, the quality of an album is often gauged by how well it ages. So while I agree and understand fully that the perspective of an 80s IR fan who heard Nayagan at the time of release would be different from mine, I don’t think mine is less valid so far as appreciating the music standalone goes. I have already expressed my agreement that the music is apt for the scenes. My quarrel is only that, for me, it doesn’t go beyond that and while it may be something of a minority opinion, this thread has already evidenced that I am not alone in feeling that way. Could I have expressed that differently and thus nipped an argument in the bud? Absolutely and I have already offered my excuse for that above.
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Shankar
September 2, 2016
@Madan, we are only having a discussion, okay? No hard feelings and no need to apologize at all! 🙂 I was just seeking clarifications in what you said. My point about being there at the time is all about truly knowing what the impact of that album or film or composer was. I agree with your points about aging and what it means to you, no issues there. For example, if you weren’t around to experience Raja in the 80s growing up, you would never fully know how omnipresent he was, on airwaves, on screen, in teashops, buses etc. This goes back to some of the discussions in the Raja thread a few months back where I had to literally chain myself to not jump in and reply to the balderdash that was being thrown around. Similarly, I can imagine but can never truly know what the Beatles experience was or Woodstock for that matter. That doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy that music or even relate to it at some level. But surely, my views and experiences will be incomplete because I just wasn’t around then. From a qualitative standpoint, MSV is a genius but as you just said, you don’t seek him out. I would say it’s the same reason. That’s all.
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Anu
September 3, 2016
Just watched “Nenjathai Killathe” after reading all these comments. Superb movie. I found “Bangalore Days” a better remake than Mouna Raagam.
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Madan
September 3, 2016
“For example, if you weren’t around to experience Raja in the 80s growing up, you would never fully know how omnipresent he was, on airwaves, on screen, in teashops, buses etc.” – No disagreement there though, as I said, I did catch the tail end of Raja’s reign and saw Rahman take over the sound waves in Chennai through 1993-94. I apologised earlier because I realise I created confusion through my improper syntax. If I had only said at the start that the songs of Nayagan didn’t work so well FOR ME, I could have avoided the confusion. I am fully aware of the cultural impact of the film as well as the songs even if I was way too young to register it at the time; the countless times Thenpandi has been played on TV, in concerts and referenced in movies gives more than a clue as to the impact. I know the audience accepted the music, to grossly understate it. But strangely, as with Kanne Kalaimaane, I don’t feel the same amount of love for these songs as listeners seem to have at the time. I am just obsessed with the uber-complex, subversive Raja and don’t feel he needs to do this kind of simple fare to prove a point to anyone. If anybody thinks Raja can’t write a simple song without a lot of orchestral intrigue, that’s their problem (more bluntly, their ignorance).
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Anu
September 3, 2016
@Madan and @MANK read this blog: http://geniusraja.blogspot.ca/
It’s a superb technical analysis of Raja and his music
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Madan
September 4, 2016
@ Anu Thanks. I am familiar with that website and have interacted regularly online with the blogger himself, Ravi Natarajan.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
September 4, 2016
Anu Madan : Here’s a very useful link which provides rare insights on the skills of not only genius MSV but also Ilayaraja and AR Rahman.
http://idlyvadai.blogspot.in/2013_05_01_archive.html
check out the section – Cut and Paste
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
September 4, 2016
Knowing the spiritual fervour embedded in our bhakts its probably easier to fight the questionable canonization of Mother Theresa 🙂 🙂
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
September 4, 2016
In all fairness if Ennio Morricone had to produce 1000 songs a year for Motherland Pictures he would have to employ the same “techniques”.
And with that we come to the end of a wonderful thread.
Happy Vinayaka Chathurthi !!
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Madan
September 4, 2016
I stopped at the point where it switched to Deva’s obvious nick of Dilbar dil se pyaare. But up to that point only the akkara cheemai and kadhal vanduchu examples were legit plagiarism instances. It’s wrong to call the use of laughing sound as copying or say Ram Pam Pam is copied for using a very standard jazz tempo. There must be hundreds of songs out there in America with that exact tempo and even a similar riff as Ram Pam Pam. You can hear it at 1:34 in this song too:
Sorry to say that most of the people who compile these sort of clips have a, well, weird (would rather be polite) understanding of what is plagiarism in music and mostly a non existent appreciation of Western music traditions. Ello ji sanam song (Andaz apna apna) doesn’t become an OP Nayyar copycat song just because it has the same horse cart beat; it is undeniably and intentionally composed in the OP Nayyar style but that’s a different story. Compositions aren’t made out of thin air; they all draw on what’s been done before. There have been very few geniuses in music history who created something completely and utterly new and unprecedented. None of the three Tamil music giants fall in that category and would be/have been embarrassed to be thought of as such.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
September 4, 2016
Madan : Come on ! The evidence is damning. Yes damn right Ilayaraja us embarrassed. I still think he is a genius. But its obvious that having to churn out an abnormal output requires such means.
He had a wonderful western classical texttbook to copy from. And our masses are so dumb.
Yes he is great but not THAT great.
Coming to ARR there are places in his BGM in Baba where he does a straightlift of the Capone theme from Untouchables.
Pathetic !
Nowadays when I listen to a great tune my reaction is “Great song . Yengayrndhu copy adichchaan ?”
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
September 4, 2016
And Madan atleast Deva didnt pretend to be anything else.
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Madan
September 4, 2016
“He had a wonderful western classical texttbook to copy from.” – And most of these western classical compositions are long out of copyright and can and are freely appropriated note for note by many artists in the West (which have strict and enforced copyright laws) and not just Ilayaraja. People in this country simply don’t understand this. You have three traditions in Western music – folk (the oldest), classical (which, yes, used to borrow from folk) and blues. Everything is derived from these traditions and it is entirely possible to find direct quotations from old tracks. That is not copying any more than an original Indian melody would also have inadvertent similarities to Carnatic compositions and renderings thereof. The composition from which Endha Poovilum is ‘copied’ is also a very old piece of Western folk. You think Mozart or Beethoven never appropriated folk music in their own much revered compositions? There’s no copyright on folk.
Deva indeed is a copy cat and I am also not denying the cases where Ilayaraja did actually copy which I clearly mentioned in my earlier comment (to repeat, Akkarai Cheemai and Kadhal Vanduduchu). I object to the mischaracterisation of what plagiarism is; that is as irresponsible as the act of plagiarism. Using identical beats, loops do not amount to copying. Using identical melodies, sure. Identical chords? Maybe (but depends on how common or not those chord progressions are). Same goes for riffs.
I have not heard that Baba instance or at least don’t remember. But I do remember going through a long compilation of supposed Rahman plagiarisms and only found one that could have been called as such; curiously, it was the song Roja roja from Kadhalar Dhinam which was too similar to Yennai Vitaal, an old MSV song. So I tend to take these plagiarism videos with several tablespoons of salt. Mostly they are intended either to launch a witch hunt on the composer in question or just to show how intelligent the uploader is.
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vijay
September 5, 2016
I am not sure about kaadhal vandhiruchu but endha poovilum, at least the pallavi portions, were a legit lift. These instances were very few. But IR’s inspirations/inspired songs is a long list. Old HFM, Old TFM, folk, WCM, classical, pop/rock influences…..And his inspired songs almost always ended up being special.
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Madan
September 5, 2016
“endha poovilum, at least the pallavi portions, were a legit lift” – It’s a lift but the composer in question was already dead and also I am sure the original composition itself was influenced by Spanish folk. That refrain is too commonplace to have been thought of for the first time only in the 20th century by Antonio Ruiz. If you just move the notes a little bit, you get the opening bars of Four Seasons. As you said, there are many Raja songs or passages within songs inspired by Western classical compositions and Endha Poovilum is another such case.
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brangan
September 5, 2016
Got this comment via email, from Vijay Shekhar. Sharing with permission:
Dear Mr. Rangan,
Just happened to bump onto your blog and read the wonderful excerpt on 30 years of Mouna Ragam…it’s undoubtedly a landmark film.
As I am also a big fan of this film like many others, thought I’ll share with you my Mouna Ragam journey.
I come from the Hindi belt (Jamshedpur)…so in my growing up years, it was only Hindi and some good English movies. The first time I saw Mouna Ragam was when I was in the 8th or 9th Standard…those were the DD days, when they used to show one regional film at 1:30 P.M. on Sundays, just after the ‘News Bulletin for the Hearing Impaired’ at 1:15 P.M. One of these was Mouna Ragam.
That was the time when I had started understanding ‘adult stuff & psyche’. And I was very impressed with the ‘good husband’ in the film, who maturely puts up and deals with every negative action, attitude and approach hurled towards him by his wife. But the name of the film, its actors or the Director never got registered in my mind. So for a long time, Mouna Ragam remained the ‘good husband’ film for me.
Later when I started watching movies more seriously and developed a better and matured taste for good films, I badly wanted to see this ‘good husband’ movie. I googled a lot with ‘Tamil film + good husband’, ‘Tamil film + wife ex-lover shot by police + good husband’, ‘Tamil film + good husband + Sardarji + Delhi’…whatever I could remember of the film. But these never yielded the desired result.
Then one day around 7-8 years back, during a casual conversation in office about Mani Ratnam, a colleague asked me if I had watched Mouna Ragam, which according to him was the Director’s best film till date. I said I hadn’t, and asked what it was about. The broad storyline given by him ended my search for the ‘good husband’ movie, and within the next 2-3 days, the film was part of my DVD collection. I would have watched it atleast 12-15 times since then. Today, Mouna Ragam is part of my personal Top 10 list.
I am also told that the impact of the film was such that even today Tamilians (living in or outside Tamil Nadu) wish that their daughters and / or sisters get husbands like Chandrakumar (the character played and immortalised by Mohan). This absolute classic was undoubtedly way ahead of its times!!!
Thanks once again for the wonderful read.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
September 5, 2016
Madan : Agree with most of your views.
Im not saying you shouldnt copy but makkala yaymaaththa koodaadhu.
You want more ARR copies ? Check out Pachchai niramay from Fiddler on The Roof.
I still maintain that Ilayaraja is a genius but the there is no point being in denial mode. The fact is I feel cheated.
There is a difference between copying and internalizing. Its a fine line and as difficult to define as obscenity.
Yes they do copy or get “inspired” in the West too but (for instance) a Brian De Palma is open about it. ” watching Hitchcock is like going to college” he says.
Everyone knows where it is from but that doesnt stop anyone from celebrating it.
I think this thread has sufficient material for “nods” and lifts.
I simply dont have the time or resources for witchhunts.
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Madan
September 5, 2016
“I still maintain that Ilayaraja is a genius but the there is no point being in denial mode. ” – Who exactly is in denial here? I have myself mentioned the instances where he did copy and I am not going to repeat it again. By the way he copied En Purushan Dhan first line of pallavi from Dum Maro Dum and yet people only talk about exotic quotations from public domain material.
And this is not about any particular composer. I just think people have to be careful when they accuse somebody of copying, that’s all. In the original itwofs website, Karthik Srinivasan took care to distinguish inspired/influenced cases from outright plagiarism but these mokkai pasangal at Anantha Vikatan don’t bother. Oh, by the way, did they acknowledge itwofs.com at all as the source because most of the cases they cited are the ones itwofs.com has long ago highlighted? Would be the ultimate irony if Anantha Vikatan pretended their video was original content.
“but (for instance) a Brian De Palma is open about it. ” watching Hitchcock is like going to college” he says.” – By that standpoint, Ilayaraja has always insisted that there is nothing truly original and everything under the sun has already been done. He himself demonstrated how Idhayam Poguthey was influenced by a Schubert composition. I wish he wouldn’t do that, actually, because these idiots at Anantha Vikatan & co will accuse him of copying without understanding the facts. It is not Ilayaraja who is in denial. It is (most of) his fans who are not exposed to Western music and get a jolt when they find passages strongly resembling his work. But that kind of resemblance is unavoidable. Other than few people like Schoenberg or Stockhausen, nobody has created anything completely new in a long time.
A small, in fact more than small, correction about Antonio Ruiz. He was alive when Entha Poovilum was composed. He died in 1997. However, the point about folk influences for Ruiz’s own composition stands. Found this on youtube, from 1:00 to 1:30 there are strong resemblances to Ruiz’s composition as well as Entha Poovilum.
“Check out Pachchai niramay from Fiddler on The Roof.” – Which song in particular? I checked out If I were a rich man and don’t hear a copy.
“I simply dont have the time or resources for witchhunts.” – Didn’t accuse you of doing that but the people who upload such videos. I am sorry but if even one case out of six cited by the uploader is not a copy, it discredits his work because it shows he is over enthusiastic about ‘proving’ that the composer is a copycat. Copying is a strong word because it implies that the composer lacks integrity. So people should not pass off similarities as copying.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
September 5, 2016
Madan : If I were IR I’d hire you in an instant………as my Counsel for the defense 🙂 🙂
Your knowledge of Western Classical music is astounding. I have the interest but I wouldnt know an Aria from a Sonata and maybe we should discuss this further at a place and time of your choosing.
Since I’m perilously close to fifty years of age, I’m taking the liberty of saying this to you.
Lets not get so defensive about these hucksters because for Chrissake I’m not prosecuting IR or ARR under the Shankar Raman murder case.
Lets just say ” he copied that ? interesting” and leave it at that.
By the way, to deviate a bit I’m something of an expert on MMKR and should you watch the movie next time watch out for a title credit in the corner (moolaila) “Moolakkadhai : Qader Kashmiri”
But Mr.Kashmiri was not compensated but thanks to the above title credit the writer of the original story (Mr.Kashmiri) got an injunction stopping you know who from releasing the film.
Make no mistake – all these “geniuses” are thieves.
As Balzac said “Behind every fortune there is a crime” ( I stole this from The Godfather 🙂 🙂 )
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Madan
September 5, 2016
all these “geniuses” are thieves. – On that, there is no disagreement and I will leave it at that by naming one of the all time biggest thieves in front of whose crimes even Led Zeppelin’s pale, let alone Ilayaraja – H G Wells. 😉 I have made my point and stand by it – my objection was to specific instances being cited and not to the very fact that Ilayaraja or anybody else copied, which they did.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
September 5, 2016
Madan : Te Saluto Senore !
As I said earlier, I have a lot to learn from you about Western Classical music !
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vijay
September 5, 2016
Madan, “endha poovilum” is certainly not just a fleeting inspiration. Kann malargaLin azhaipidhazh (Thaipongal) from ABBA’s Money Money Money is probably an inspiration. endha poovilum is more of a lift. I am not sure if you have heard Antonio’s piano piece, but the similarity is not restricted just to the opening 2 or 3 bars, it extends all the way to the last line of the pallavi(dhinam dhinam aanandham yeh…) which in my books is a lift. That’s why I said it is a rare instance, since IR usually doesn’t take an entire pallavi. That Antonio’s piece itself could have been inspired is a different issue altogether.
BTW, how about a reverse-inspiration? BoneyM’s “By the rivers of babylon”‘s opening notes from MSV’s grand “ulagamengum ore mozhi”? from Nadodi? 🙂 This is for your point about common inspirational source.
On the topic of BGM, I agree with few views here that IR’s style of scoring is more suited to emotional dramas like Dalapathi or epic movies and such. I remember commenting here sometime back on whether IR could vibe well with the sensibilities of a black comedy like say Mithya much less the new age treatment of stories in movies like visaarNai, Aaranya kaaNdam etc. Doubtful. Re-recording is not just about the hold you have over your craft. Its also about the meshing of sensibilities. The maker and the composer have to be pretty much on the same page. Some of these young director working with IR, I feel, just nod their heads to whatever he throws at them. They don’t really push him towards what they wanted or are unable to do so. Or there is a generational gap.
Aaranya kaaNdam BTW was a surprise – stinker boy Yuvan actually threw up a surprise there. Didn’t expect that score from him. Of course with him though you always wonder about the originality aspect.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
September 6, 2016
Vijay : I’m wondering, lets for instance, take endha poovilum’s original or for that matter any other “inspirational” original. If the opening bars were the most prominent catchy part of the original piece which was then copied, would it constitute a lift or not ?
I certainly cant assign logic to my feelings because they are, well, feelings but let me elaborate.
The song “En veettu thoattathil” from Gentleman in my opinion is a nice adaptation of “Naadha Bindhu kalaadhi” from Thiruppaavai but ‘Ae kuruvi Chiittu Kuruvi’ (from Mudhal Mariyaadhai) is a lift in my opinion from Antonin Dvorak’s New World Symphony.
When I say lift a vision comes up in my mind’s eye of the music director and the producer ina business discussion just like Anand-Milind, Anu Malik, Nadeem Shravan where they keep playing one cassette after another till the producer stops them at the required merchandise and indicates “Bas – Yeh chaahiyay mujhe”
I didnt expect this of IR since for the last 30 years I laboured under the false impression that these were entirely original pieces.
Like I said – not logical – but this is what I feel.
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Rahini David
September 6, 2016
sravishanker: Maybe you mean that you had already heard “nada bindu kaladi namo namah” before “En veetu thotathil” and it is a familiar song for most people already?
You object if the inspiration is a song you personally are not acquainted with. Maybe that is what all this is about, no? Perfectly logical.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
September 6, 2016
Rahini : We’re getting into very murky territory here.
I dont know whether to agree with you or not.
Lets say I’d heard Antonio Ruiz before. I’d STILL say it was a lift just like Anand Milind’s lift of Vangelis Chariots of Fire theme – which I knew beforehand- in that crappy number with Sonu Walia and Kabir Bedi.
I guess its the way it is done. IR’s rendition added absolutely zilch to the original.
Again, if you’re hinting that my disappointment was a function of the stature in which I hold IR, then you’re right – probably that was it.
So, forgive my illogicalness but then music isnt logical is it ?
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Madan
September 6, 2016
@ Vijay: Certainly I am not denying that Endha Poovilum pallavi is entirely taken almost note for note from the Antonio Ruiz composition. My point was only re the folk roots of the Ruiz composition itself and also re how much western artists themselves freely partake of passages from western classical music. It is just usually much better disguised than this. I think the most blatant rip offs done by Raja remain the two songs in Priya – Akkarai Cheemai and Darling Darling (which is a thinly veiled ‘adaptation’ of Boney M’s Sunny). He could have easily got sued for that had anybody known and Derek Shulman of Simon and Dupree (later on Gentle Giant) was a badass. 😛
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Madan
September 6, 2016
“Some of these young director working with IR, I feel, just nod their heads to whatever he throws at them. They don’t really push him towards what they wanted or are unable to do so.” – I see it differently. Mostly, young directors now electing to work with IR are his fans (because there is no commercial compulsion today to work with IR). They imagine their films with IR’s rich background scores and go and ask him to give that. Mysskin was on quote saying he asked IR to do something like John Williams for Onaayum Aatukuttiyum. When I watched the film, I was baffled as to why Mysskin would say that because the film did not need THAT kind of score. I think GVM did the same thing on NEPV – just gave licence to kill to IR and thereafter struggled to picturise the songs. I don’t mind it so much as an IR fan but maybe they should instead trust their vision and either get the kind of score from him that the film needs or simply work with somebody else. IR’s scores are expressive. They fill up the gaps that the director left unexpressed either intentionally or unintentionally. In a more taut and stark film like OAK, which presumes a more engaged audience and forces them to guess rather than spoon feeding everything, that over-expression becomes distracting (for me anyway).
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Ravi K
September 7, 2016
I watched MR last night, and while the score itself is good, I felt that the film as a whole was a little overscored (which is the case for most Indian films). Some moments would have been better served with silence and natural sound.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
September 7, 2016
On which side of the spectrum would ‘Isai Aruvi’ S. A. Rajkumar’s “Malligai Poove” (from Unnidaththil Ennai Koduththen) fall? The actual tune in my mind is: “Didi Tera Devar Deewana”.
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lowlylaureate
September 8, 2016
Sir MR and ok, write about Samsaram Adhu Minsaram 30 years.
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shaviswa
September 8, 2016
@lowlylaureate Samsaram Adhu Minsaram is a stage play. Not a movie.
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brangan
September 8, 2016
I must admit I had a weakness for Visu movies. Kamala Kamesh reduced to quivering jelly at the latest catastrophe. Seetha’s eyes pooling with tears at her husband’s latest atrocity. Kishmu orchestrating the latest bout of mischief. Dilip doing the latest bit of good-for-nothing-ism. Visu leaning on pillars and delivering the latest monologue.
Ah, good times 😀
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Madan
September 8, 2016
@ Honest Raj: I think it’s similar enough to be called a copy. He has crudely attempted to disguise it but the pause in the pallavi pretty much cements the case. Many Hindi songs got copied in Tamil in the 90s, often by Sirpi.
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Filistine
September 8, 2016
I used to be fascinated with the titles for these Visu movies. I would keep imagining potential Visu titles in different genres – political thriller: Pathavi athanaal uthavi; Crime – Kolai athu oru kalai; Romance – Mothalukkupin Kaathal; Sports film – Odal tharum medal….
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brangan
September 8, 2016
Sex film: Platter mel matter.
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Filistine
September 8, 2016
The idea of Visu directing a sex movie is rather disturbing. I mean, you would have Kamala Kamesh weeping in a corner, Raghuvaran drawing a line somewhere, Lakhsmi complaining about her husband, S V Shekar complaining about his wife and Visu gently lecturing on the benefits of the missionary position (“Kanna, doggy style-lan naigal pannaradhukku. Naamalum athey mathiri pannina nammakkum athuhalukkum enna vidhyasam”). Vibhacharam, athu abhacharam!
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brangan
September 8, 2016
Actually, you’re almost describing the plot of Oorukku Ubadesam 😀
How come there are no prostitutes in Tamil cinema anymore?
Vilaimaadhu Veettukku Aagaadhu!
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MANK
September 8, 2016
I am really enjoying all the puns that are being made at the expense of visu and SAM
BTW,anybody seen its Malayalam remake kudumbapuranam. It’s a pretty good film. The late great writer lohithadas took the basic plot of the film, removed all the clichés and visuisms and made a really good screenplay out of it. It also helps that visu’s character is played in the remake by the great Tilakan.
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hari ohm
September 8, 2016
You guys should watch the interview of Visu by bosskey in youtube
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Rohit Sathish Nair
September 8, 2016
I vaguely recall watching parts of it, with Balachandra Menon as his elder son, and it starting with Thilakan playing cricket wiith kids, or something. I do remember that it was for the most part, a little light-hearted, hardly any of vicious Visu-isms as others said, in sight. And even if it was melodramatic, it would stay safe in Thilakan’s hands.
PS: Will you be watching Oppam, Oozham, or the other Onam flicks, Chettaa?
PPS: Do you still wish Rangan’s Onam gift was the Kammatipaadam review? I am finding it hard to stop waiting!
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
September 9, 2016
Madan: I think Deva was surely a notch above the S. A. Rajkumars and Sirpys. Btw, was “Pathinettu Vayasu” (in Suriyan) intentionally copied from Kanda Sashti Kavasam?
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
September 9, 2016
Filistine: Thanks for the ‘doggy style’ comment. Haven’t laughed that hard in a LONG time. 😉
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MANK
September 9, 2016
Rohitsatishnair,ill wait for word of mouth before venturing out for any of the Oman releases.it will take a lot of that to get me to watch a priyadarshan film again
Regarding Kammatipadam review, well I’ll keep my fingers crossed 😃
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shaviswa
September 9, 2016
@Filistine Toooo much 😀
Visu movies are good for a relaxed watch after lunch on a dull Sunday afternoon. But he had a template that was abused too much. After the initial couple of films, it became tedious to watch. I was OK with Kudumbam Oru Kadambam. Then Manal Kayiru followed by Samsaram Adhu Minsaram. Beyond these, they became horrible to watch.
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Madan
September 9, 2016
“I think Deva was surely a notch above the S. A. Rajkumars and Sirpys.” – It would seem that way but Sirpy gives sariyana poti. There is a song (which I think is by Sirpy but am not sure) which derives its pallavi with minimal changes (if any) from Ruk Ja Jaanewali Ruk Ja. Sirpy really didn’t bother with embellishments as evidenced by how he blatantly copied pallavi, interlude and charanam et al from an Arabic song for Azhagiya Laila. Whereas Deva did make a completely new song when he copied Dilbar Dil Se Pyare for Azhagu. I am not defending Deva; rather I am just saying we should give Sirpy his due. 😉
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
September 10, 2016
I think Deva was surely a notch above the S. A. Rajkumars and Sirpys
Madan: I didn’t mean to sound sarcastic. 🙂 Despite plagiarisations (scores), Deva knew how to place them perfectly into the film. They are much better than the ‘la la la la …. la la la la… lala lala la’ lullabies in Vikraman-SAR movies.
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Madan
September 10, 2016
Honest Raj: Ah, I see. It gets hard to tell on the net, especially so because Deva gets pilloried and rightly so. But for all that, he is capable of coming up with the occasional goodie which is beyond Sirpy for the first part. SAR did ok on Manasukul Mathappu if I leave out the question of which of those songs were or weren’t copied.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
September 10, 2016
Madan: I grew up listening to ARR, as much as I grew up listening to Deva and S. A. Rajkumar, thanks to Vikraman films. 😀 The songs of Aasai, Avva Shanmughi and Nerukku Ner sound so fresh even today.
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Madan
September 10, 2016
Honest Raj: While on the Deva tangent, I don’t really have favourite movies but favourite songs across films. There’s that Chithra solo in Aasai (don’t recall the words), Nalam nalam aariyaval from Kadhal Kottai (probably my favourite of Deva), Oru Mani Adithal (gulp), Thanga Magan (Baasha), the Hariharan-Chithra (or was it Sujatha) duet in Avai Shanmughi and lastly Sakalakala Vallavane from Pammal K. I also really like Ennakenna Perandheva but the problem is it sounds way too much like Ilayaraja and I did think it was Raja for a long time.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
September 13, 2016
BR : With reference to your comment on the trackback to Suhasini jogging while she is running to the airport to stop Pratap from boarding the flight there just maybe some background to that.
I recall the interview on DD National Network with director Mahendran (interviewed by actress Srividya) just before NK was shown on the DD Regional film slot.
The interview was conducted in English (sic)
(Srividya) : “Mr.Mahendran , how did you get the idea for the story of Nenjathai Killaathe ?”
(Mahendran) : “Once I visited Bombay and was staying at a hotel near the sea……………(pauses)….I saw a young BOY……and a young GIRL…(pauses again)”
“They were RUNNING…….” (pauses)
“Then I thought………TEN years from now ….” (meaningful pause)
” WHERE will they RUN ?”
(Nuff said)
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venkatesh
September 18, 2016
Thanks to whoever put the Nayagan excerpt with IR’s BGM …. you made me watch the film again.
For all you philistines talking about the film aging badly, the songs not being right, Kamal’s method acting, …. etc. etc. You have no idea what you are talking about.
You had to be there , the film and the few films after that from MR set off a time-bomb in the industry, no you had to be there to get it.
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Akhilan
September 19, 2016
@Venkatesh I beg to differ… You don’t have to be there in that particular era to get it… For instance, are you telling me that I should’ve been born in the 60s to somehow ‘better’ understand and appreciate say The Sound of Music or Mary Poppins…?? Absolutely not… I grew up watching these movies in the late-nineties when I was around 5 years old, and even today, at the age of 23, they remain so fresh and novel… I still connect with the emotional core, the music, the characters, the sensibilities, and so on… Nayagan, on the other hand, will never be that movie for me, and that’s just my perspective… Let me put it this way: You’ll never ‘get’ why I don’t ‘get’ Nayagan’ the way you want me to ‘get’ it and vice-versa…
For me, The Sound of Music or Mary Poppins transcend time. Nayagan doesn’t. And this simply represents my emotional response to these movies. Just because I don’t concur with your viewpoint doesn’t mean I have ‘no idea what I’m talking about’… Besides, even if I was born in that era, how would you know whether I would ‘get’ Nayagan along the same lines as how you deem it should be regarded/understood/appreciated in the first place…?? I myself wouldn’t know… So if this makes me a ‘philistine’, then so be it…
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Madan
September 19, 2016
@ Akhilan: Well said and you have sort of made the same point I wanted to. If you had to be there to get it, that means it’s not aged well (which I am not saying, I do think Nayagan has aged well). Like 80s hair, spandex etc. But I wouldn’t be so harsh on Nayagan. I do think it’s a very good, even an excellent film (of course opinions may differ). But I struggle with the notion that an excellent film cannot have flaws, albeit minor ones. Or that it may simply be best of the best in each and every department. So, for Kamal, it is a good role and surely one of his more memorable ones but not necessarily one of his best and some of the sad scenes in the latter part of the film were too overwrought for me (his acting, I mean). I have already discussed about IR’s music. Even for Mani, I wouldn’t necessarily rank it as his best. Also, as mentioned earlier, there is bound to be a difference in perspective between someone who was mainly watching Tamil movies at the time of its release and someone who also watches Hindi/English. I appreciate that Mani admired FFC so much, but I am absolutely fine with the original product, that’s the problem. Now if I take off on this tangent, I will head into a whole rant on this obsession with ‘internationalising’ Tamil and Hindi cinema but I will stop right here.
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Aadhy
September 19, 2016
To all Deva fans in the house, a big shout-out ! We might bash him all we want (for plagiarism), but the man bloody well knew how to use Hariharan. I remember having Pyramid’s Hariharan hits cassette in 90s, in which the number of Deva-Hari songs were equal to that of Rahman-Hari songs, with lovely melodies like Taj-u Mahale (Panjalankurichi) and Vannanilave (some random Vijay-Rambha movie). It was a time when every big star’s movie had Deva’s name on it. 2-3 strong melodies with one of them being raga-based so that Hariharan can unleash his inner dragons, one fun gaana about Munima/Mary, were characteristic of his soundtracks. The theme scores for Rajni movies, some of them being shameless lifts, were nevertheless goosebumpy. When we say 90s, people automatically think of Raghumaan (that’s how his name was spelt in audio cassettes), but forget that Deva has equally contributed to the pop culture of that period. I remember girls of my age in my apartment (or flats, as we used to call them), losing it whenever Jyotika’s opening song from Kushi played on TV. As to whose music stood the test of time, we all know the answer. But for someone born in early 90s, Deva’s sound played as much of a part in the years of growing up, as the sound of Rahman-Keith Peters duo.
P.S: Also those were the times when I was a Prashanth fanboy. Sigh.
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naaye
September 20, 2016
Richard Corliss of Time and Bharadwaj rangan of Hindu have caliber to talk about Nayagan, not others.
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naveenkrwpress
October 10, 2016
it take me almost 3 weeks to do top to end on this thread. Mouna Ragam is one of the few that impacted my growing years, mainly due to Revathi and IR. after growing up, SPB, Janaki, Vaali got into that list of awesomeness. am not an expert on film making techniques, but the movie that has had the biggest impact on me has been Sagara Sangamam, which i consider the best in all segments of film making. another movie which i rate highly is manichitrathaazhu. i consider KV and Faazil to be much better directors of the 80s, 90s than MR. they never had to resort to cheap choreography or silly comedies ( to think Mounamana Neram is a FN song ). they had much greater sensitivity and sensibility in handling human emotions. i hate P Vasu to the extent of hiring hitmen for giving Chandramukhi as a remake of Manichitrathazhu. of MRatnam, i liked Dhalapathy again more for IR and Srividya/Janaki. not sure if Mani’s best is yet to come.the recent movies do not show that promise.
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Rathy Potter
November 2, 2016
I don’t usually comment, that too being months late. Yet I can’t help myself.
Someone above mentioned about Mohan’s decision to marry a girl despite being told she’s not interested. Yes it does sound egomaniac (naan ambala, I can afford to make a decision) but I always had a feeling he made that decision because he found this girl extremely different from the girls he probably met in his life. He’s probably a man who wants both of each world, independent strong opinionated woman who also prioritizes her family, rebellious but with a cause. He must have been sitting in the living, waiting to see who is this girl, who is so brave to ditch her own ponnu pakkara ceremony. He could have left of course, but his curiosity won. And when he finally saw her : she was pretty, spoke her mind, pretty straight forward yet her family arranged for an alliance. Of course he was intrigued. He thought let’s marry her, and then get to know her. I’m guessing,getting a divorce if all hell breaks loose wouldn’t be a taboo for him.
I don’t see the difference between Karthik and Mohan – except for the way they executed their intentions of getting the girl they were interested with.
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The non athletic Arjun
April 23, 2023
I just watched this film yesterday and I’m in love with the house, with the clothes.
The film definitely holds up even now entertainment wise though the society has changed quite a bit in the mean time and hence movie’s stance/take on marriage might not be palatable for all, but as far as I am concerned it’s never wise to judge a movie with the prism of today’s political correctness, especially when the movie seems extremely progressive for its time like in this case.
But what really amazed me is how some of the issues raised by the movie is relevant even today with regard to arranged marriages.
I was confused about many aspects of the movie and it was going through this comments thread that clarified many things for me.
But it seems nobody pointed out how the entire Karthik love track seemed problematic. There was of course the stalking, disruption of traffic, coercion etc all rolled into one scene — but like I mentioned earlier it is not fair to judge the movie based on today’s sensibilities but what I found actually problematic was that the entire track seemed too perfunctory — like Mani Ratnam needed a sad flashback for the divya character so he had one done adding as much style into it but no real emotional hook. It seemed the movie really was about divya warming upto RC and the flashback was only written so that the movie can hurriedly reach that point.
I wonder how the audiences at the time perceived the entire flashback. Was it heartwrenching? Or was it just something you were entertained by till the movie got to the actual plot points?
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