The racism controversy around the Oscars cannot be addressed by just nominating a few black actors.
When Mary Kom was released – actually, right from the point the film was announced – a lot was said and written about Priyanka Chopra playing a Manipuri boxer. “Why not cast someone from the North East?” was the general tone of the criticism. Similar objections were raised when Jared Leto played a trans woman in Dallas Buyer’s Club. In Argo, another film based on a true story, Ben Affleck played Tony Mendez, a CIA officer who was half Mexican. You could go on. Elizabeth Taylor played Egyptian queen Cleopatra. Johnny Depp played a Comanche in The Lone Ranger. Peter Sellers played another kind of Indian, Hrundi V. Bakshi, in The Party. And who played Facebook co-founder Divya Narendra in The Social Network? Max Minghella. The Tamil-Muslim comic Aziz Ansari said, in a New York Times piece titled Aziz Ansari on Acting, Race and Hollywood, “I have a hard time understanding why [this] Indian-American Harvard student was played by… a half-Chinese, half-Italian British actor.”
Ridley Scott, though, had no such qualms. When the question came up about casting actors like Christian Bale, Joel Edgerton, Sigourney Weaver and Aaron Paul as Middle Eastern characters in his Biblical epic Exodus: Gods and Kings, the director simply said, “I can’t mount a film of this budget, where I have to rely on tax rebates in Spain, and say that my lead actor is Mohammad so-and-so from such-and-such. I’m just not going to get it financed. So the question doesn’t even come up.” This is a frankly shocking statement. (It’s even more startling that Scott admitted this, in these politically correct times.) It’s pure racism. But it’s also pure economics. Most movies are made for the mainstream, so that the largest numbers of people will buy tickets. And to get these numbers, you have to have a star (or an actor) who is popular with audiences across races, across nations. Unfortunately, with the exception of a Sidney Poitier here, a Denzel Washington there, most of these actors happen to be white. Priyanka Chopra , of course, isn’t white, but for a film made for an all-India audience, her “physiognomy” is to the Indian market what, say, Christian Bale’s is to the North American market. It’s… mainstream.
None of this is to dismiss the racism controversy that surrounds this year’s Academy Awards. This is just to say that the majority of movies that end up being considered for the Oscars have mainstream actors, and due to the sheer numbers of these frontline white actors, many of them heavily promoted by their studios, it’s inevitable that some worthy performances slip through the cracks. For each “snub” of a black actor, you can find one of a non-black actor as well. If Idris Elba was snubbed for Beasts of No Nation, then so was Juliette Binoche for Clouds of Sils Maria. If Ryan Coogler was shut out for Creed, whose only Oscar nomination came for a white actor named Sylvester Stallone, then so was Danny Boyle for Steve Jobs. Let’s not get into who “deserves” it, whether your apple is better than my orange. Surely by now we know that the Oscar is as non-objective as any other award.
But it is possible to be objective about the ratio of whites to non-whites in the voting bloc of the Academy. It is possible to be objective about the number of “white” movies that are released, compared to the “black” ones. It is possible to be objective about the fact that the studios behind mainstream movies (most of which are made for, made by, and made with white people) have the most money to throw around during Oscar season, influencing voters and votes. It is possible to be objective about the fact that it’s pure economics. If mainstream audiences begin to embrace more films with black and brown actors, then more such films will be made, more such actors will make themselves visible at the box office and during awards season, more white voters will find it impossible to overlook them. All of this has to be addressed if the racism controversy is to be addressed. In other words, a deep-rooted, top-down systemic overhaul is what’s needed, not the bland tokenism of a few black actors and behind-the-camera people finding themselves nominated amidst a sea of whites.
As the Mary Kom instance proves, this isn’t just a Hollywood problem. Ask the people behind the film, and they’ll hand you the box-office statistics – the film was an above-average grosser. Translation: it may not have been a blockbuster, but at least it didn’t lose money. The people behind the movie, thus, will echo Ridley Scott and claim that had they cast a North Eastern actress, even this level of success would not have been achieved – no one would have come to theatres. They’re probably right. So the problem lies as much with them as with us. For how many films with “non-mainstream” faces have we transformed into huge hits? How many of our stars, our big box-office draws, represent anything other than the generally accepted “Indian look”?
Look at Tamil and Telugu films, which routinely shun brown-skinned heroines for fair-skinned North Indian imports, who, in these milieus, look like stranded aliens, whose spaceship took off without waiting for them. The message – fair is the only thing that’s lovely – is as bad as that in the skin-whitening cream commercials. Or even look at Hindi films. How many of them make space for a Nandita Das, for instance, who proudly advertises her duskiness? Look at our television commercials, where distinctly North Indian-looking women – or to be more precise, the market’s definition of North Indian-looking women (aka, no Nandita Das) – are routinely passed off as South Indian housewives. Should something be done about this? Absolutely. But what? And how? That requires a long, deep, inward look by everyone, from the people who make entertainment to the people who consume it. A few names on an awards roster isn’t going to change anything.
An edited version of this piece can be found here.
Copyright ©2016 The Hindu. This article may not be reproduced in its entirety without permission. A link to this URL, instead, would be appreciated.
Punee
February 10, 2016
If one believes that race is a man-made construct like caste then all this drama about black/white just amounts to reverse racism.
For every South movie where a north Indian heroine is criticized, there are south Indian heroines like Deepika, Aishwarya who are criticized for not looking xyz enough to pay the heroines in Devdas, Ram Leela etc.
I remember Shoba De being especially vicious about Aishwarya’s physiognomy being unsuitable to play Paro in SLB’s Devdas.
And many people saying that Sridevi shouldn’t have played a Maharashtrian in English Vinglish, because she “sounds” too South Indian.
All that matters is what is fashionable to criticize 🙂
I loved Idris Elba as Heimdall in the Thor movies, but it is not fashionable to criticize the choice of a “black” actor to play a Nordic god, while its ok to criticize the choice of Christian Bale as Moses(even though Moses might be an absolute fictional character of any “race” too!!) 🙂
There is currently a play on Harry Potter in the making and Hermoine is played by a “black” lady. JK Rowling has openly said that Hermoine can be anybody who has bushy brown hair and brown eyes.
We need to be color blind instead of obsessing over what physiognomy is correct for which fictional character.
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hattorihanzo4784
February 10, 2016
1) very nice article man. also Keanu reeves as Buddha was I thought a proper humiliation to the people of the subcontinent. There was also some controversy about Shyamalan’s the LAst airbender not having asian actors as heroes in a animation series which clearly has the heroes having asian features.
2) There is this “white saviour” phenomenon, (that i came to know only after reading avatar reviews… ) on which Hollywood runs on. Every time hollywood wants to make a movie about the exploitation of native people by the “whites” then they make sure that a “white rebel hero/ heroine” is at the centre of the revolution.
Dances with the wolves – Costner
Last Samurai – Cruise
Avatar – (a movie which evokes a comparison to western colonial exploitation of natives) – Worthington
Gandhi – since Gandhi is the subject of the movie – they casted a White man himself in that role
even movies where Black people make it big in life, it has to be due to the push given by a good white samaritan.
so a young creed gets help from rocky
sandra bullock helps a young black man to become a football player in the blind side
normally movies which have black people opposing the whites and making it big in life, dont have the studio backing unless the hero is will smith or washington.
3) northie heroines playing roles in south movies has been playing on your mind for quite a while… 🙂 you wrote this for vaalu review –
“At first, Hansika sticks out sorely. She looks like the least likely MTC bus traveller, and she doesn’t seem to hail from the same planet – leave alone zip code – as the actors playing her parents, her friends. She could be auditioning for a female-centric remake of pk, about this alabaster alien being who crash-lands in a state filled with brown-skinned people.”
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Se V
February 10, 2016
Maybe the controversy arose because Oscar nomination alone can lead a newer or less established performer to sustained acting gigs and audience attention, which after all ensures these talented people survive Hwood and not fall through the cracks into anonymity. So it can help salvage worthy talent, in a way.
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Nambirajan Vanamamalai
February 10, 2016
“look like stranded aliens, whose spaceship took off without waiting for them.”
🙂
Isn’t this also a question of fictionalizing a real story. If what you see on a screen is always a image of the reality what’s the issue with having a Elizabeth Taylor playing Egyptian queen Cleopatra? Anyway what you see on screen is not real. It’s a made up reality which features made up characters.
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srijithunni
February 10, 2016
Actually the whole Black Racism controversy is over-hyped. Many black actors and actresses have won or at least been nominated, including Sidney Poitier, Halle Berry, Viola Davis, Jamie Foxx, Will Smith, Forest Whitaker, Morgan Freeman, Denzel Washington and so on. Spike Lee’s Malcolm X should have won, but at least it got a nomination.
Black actors/actresses may have lesser awards but are definitely part of the discourse and are economically viable. Many of Will Smith’s movies have been moneyspinners and so was the recently released Straight Outta Compton. I feel Black actors / actresses have still had it pretty good when compared to native Americans.
There is not a single Native American lead actor that I know of after Marlon Brando, except for maybe Dwayne Johnson’s Samoan roots. Not a single mainstream movie uses native American actors in important roles and talks about their stories. The actual racism there, is towards the red and brown folks. The Blacks are pretty much celebrated when compared to them.
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brangan
February 10, 2016
Via email…
Dear Hindu,
Baradwaj Rangan really has got to the heart of the matter. Our Indian obsession with fair skins has reached ridiculous proportions. Every billboard, every advertisement in newspapers and magazines, every TV ad, has fair, foreign looking faces, totally unrelated to Indian society. I’ve even seen obituary notices in villages, with pictures of bizarre blonde children crying!
It’s time the ordinary man and woman raised their voice to point out the sheer absurdity of trying to portray India as a country of white, blonde, light eyed people. First let’s be proud of our dark skin and the features God gave us. Let’s stop the Fairness Cream industry’s billion rupee campaign to make us ashamed of our skin colour, to coax us to equate beauty with whiteness of skin, to even try to make us believe success in love, career, marriage, and every aspect of life totally depends on how divinely fair we are.
Till we sort ourselves out on the White is Fair issue we have no right to preach about racism to any other country.
Nirmala Aravind
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brangan
February 10, 2016
Via email…
Hi Baradwaj,
Your take on the lack of representation of ‘non-mainstream’ talent across the ‘woods, in today’s Perspective, made for an interesting read.
And you are right, until the audiences begin to show up for good movies with a lesser known cast or open up their minds to a larger definition around what can be ‘beautiful/appealing’, we are really not getting anywhere.
It is tiring to see imports from the North / County pageant contestants from the West essay roles that can otherwise be delivered with authenticity by native actors (eg. Parvathi Menon – Poo, and the gorgeous actress who starred in Rummy and Kaaka Muttai).
To give them some credit, the imports do manage to polish their acting skills a bit after a few years in the industry, but that doesn’t quite make for authentic delivery.
The way I see it, the situation can be remedied only when the audience and casting directors find the courage to embrace authenticity; and then work to discover and celebrate it in all its ‘beautiful shades’.
Cheers,
Lakshmi
As an aside , am a regular reader of your movie reviews on the Hindu’s Sunday issues, and your gentle wit and sarcasm routinely bring on a giggle or chuckle, thanks!!
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brangan
February 10, 2016
Via email…
Hi Baradwaj,
The article is excellently pointing out the right reason.
Thanks for the article.
Kumar C
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Gradwolf
February 10, 2016
@Punee: Your comment not only misses the point but is also patronizing. Being color blind is only going to make the problem bigger. If Idris Elba as Nordic God draws criticism, then it only points to more ignorance about white privilege and related issues. And why do you think there was so much cheering for the official and unofficial lobbying of Idris Elba as James Bond? Also, no, Idris Elba in Thor is not at all same as Bale or Edgerton playing Middle Eastern characters.
And there is no such thing as reverse racism
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brangan
February 10, 2016
Nambirajan Vanamamalai: If what you see on a screen is always a image of the reality what’s the issue with having a Elizabeth Taylor playing Egyptian queen Cleopatra?
My point is that a big “mainstream-looking” Caucasian star is being cast as an African queen.
I don’t have an artistic quarrel with this. I don’t have a problem with blackface either — as it all comes under “acting.” If Sivaji Ganesan can act as Othello, I certainly see no problem with Taylor as Cleopatra
What I’m talking about is what this casting decision perpetuates. I’m talking about the fact that the other option isn’t possible, the option that a small “non-mainstream-looking” black actress could play Cleopatra — or indeed, many of the parts a Taylor would routinely play. The studios would resist it. And audiences too will no go in as many numbers. (How many Bond or Mission:Impossible or Lara Croft type franchises do you know with black/brown actors?)
We flock to movies with stars. (We, as in most audiences.) –> Most of these stars are white/mainstream-looking (defined by the “mainstream” looks in that particular country) –> Thus studios get the message that to sell more tickets they need to have one of these stars –> Which means that non-mainstream-looking actors are almost always going to end up in smaller movies –> And smaller movies don’t have money to promote themselves and make themselves visible during Oscar season…
And so on. This is what I am talking about (in generalised terms. of course).
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Naveen
February 10, 2016
our films largely reflect our society and beliefs/choices. Dhanush made a great achievement to be accepted as a hero in bollywood. don’t see any exceptions otherwise. everything exists in our society in various shades – racism, sexism, intolerance etc
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KayKay
February 10, 2016
I said this in another forum where The Martian was castigated for being yet another movie where a whole bunch of minority characters slave tirelessly to bring the White Hero back to earth, in effect, being yet another form of the “Magic Negro” who exists to set things right for the White characters before making a graceful exit:
“So here’s the thing. I ponder shit like this too. But…..while fuming at the fact that The Last Samurai needed to be filtered via a Tom Cruise Redemption arc, I’m cognizant of the fact that you’re not going to attract masses of American Cine Goers with a poster and publicity campaign screaming “The Last Samurai starring Ken Watanabe”.
Exodus may well be shit even after Scott releases a talked-about longer (and most likely more coherent) Director’s Cut, but would the movie have even been green lit if it had starred Alexander Siddig or Ghassan Massoud?
As for The Martian, it’s economics pure and simple. For the bajillion dollars they sunk into the movie, you needed a certified A-Lister to pull the crowds in. If you had replaced Matt Damon with other formidable box-office draws like Denzel Washington or Will Smith, would it have made for a better movie?
Or if Watley were to be played by, say, BD Wong, or John Cho, or Sung Kang, or Byung Hun-Lee, or Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje or Djimon Hounsou or David Oyelowo or Freida Pinto or Fan Bingbing or Kal Penn or that chubby Indian guy in Inception and Avatar, how does that exactly add to the overall effectiveness and quality of the narrative, beyond upturning the Conventional Wisdom of having a White Male as the fulcrum upon which the plot pivots?”
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sanjana
February 10, 2016
Interesting writeup. Ultimately it is acting and looking convincing without pandering to political rightism. It is a fallacy that south indians are all dark. There are many who are wheatish and almost fair if not very fair. And there are innumerable north indians who are not fair. Just visit M.P., Bihar and even Delhi. If a north eastern actress is as famous, definitely she would have been cast as Mary Kom. Among south indians it is Vyjayantimala and Waheeda Rehman who got approval on all India basis. Hollywood actors are cast according to the requirements of the role and carrying it than any explicit racism. If Cleopatra is made now, I wish they cast an Egyptian or someone close to.
But all said, one cant rule out these things and say the world is egalitarian.
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sridharraman
February 10, 2016
I agree with Gradwolf. Race/gender/caste/xyz-blindness existing in a vacuum is a common misconception today. There is something called as historical context that can’t be just swept away.
Regarding economics as the reason for skewed representation of actors, I am always slightly wary of that tack of argument. Simply because it could be used as the reason for anything under the sun.
Bad movies? Oh it sells.
Exploitation? Oh it sells.
… and so on.
Not that economics isn’t one of the reasons, just that it shouldn’t be used as the means of silencing people’s opinions and protests, that’s all.
Nice article, brangan!
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the brangan fan
February 10, 2016
what priyanka chopra earned by playing mary kom is more than mary kom herself earned in all her life!!
brangan sir,
what are your views on sachin tendulkar playing himself in his biopic??
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Anu Warrier
February 10, 2016
BR, a small nitpick – Nandita Das is not ‘north-Indian’; she is Oriya/Gujarati. 🙂
Punee, choosing an actor based on the color of his skin is racism, like it or not. Whether Deepika or Aishwarya ‘looked’ the part is a completely different matter. Fact remains, that in India, ‘fair’ is seen to be something to be aspired to – look at the multitude of fairness creams in the market, or the plethora of marriage ads (still!) asking for ‘fair brides’. In the West, apart from a handful of actors who have managed to break through the entertainment ceiling, there is still a barrier that they haven’t been able to cross. And yes, a lot of it is driven by economics, but so was slavery.
Things have to change, and they will not, as long as we sit back and say that any mention of giving them an equal playing field is reverse racism.
(Plus, what Gradwolf said.)
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Punee
February 10, 2016
@Gradwolf: I have seen reverse racism and reverse casteism happen in front of my own eyes. And I say this as a dark-skinned, lower-caste south Indian woman who has faced enough casteism and colorism to make your eyes bleed.
I repeat, a so-called “Black” guy playing a fictionally nordic character is the same as a so-called “white” guy playing a fictionally egyptian character. If you think they are different, then that’s a problem in your own thinking. I like the idea of any competent actor be it of any kind of physiognomy playing Hermoine or James Bond. Of course star power has to be taken into account based on the budget, so if they choose an SRK to play James Bond over Nawazuddin Siddiqui – its understandable.
Sometimes the casting for star-power idea fires backward like when they chose to remove Ranveer from Bombay Velvet and cast Ranbir instead- those are learning curves obviously.
Still, you can’t demand that movie directors and producers bow to a small shrill lobby of egalitarians in order to make their movie.
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Nee
February 10, 2016
What about Halle Berry and her Oscar? Any comments BR?
Patronizing too happens just because….
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Bayta
February 10, 2016
Gradwolf – Since I don’t have a WordPress account and can only anonymously thumbs up comments (which I did do), I want to comment and say thank you. For everything you said, and more especially, for linking that video. Just spent the last half hour watching a series of clips from that stand up show. So, thank you!
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Vanya
February 10, 2016
BR already mentioned this, but just wanted to reiterate that with the #oscarssowhite movement, the call is primarily for more roles for people of color, and not simply more awards. I don’t buy the economics argument at all, because there isn’t much evidence for the counterfactual. Studios have wimped out so much in this department that we don’t have any actual data for movies. But TV in the US has played around with diversity to spectacular results — take the success of any show from the Shonda Rhimes empire, Orange is the new black, Fresh off the boat, Blackish, Master of none. Why doesn’t Hollywood use this as preliminary evidence towards diversity being bankable?
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Shalini
February 10, 2016
Thoughtful post, BR. I’m particularly pleased with the last para targeting India’s exasperating, almost pathological fixation with ‘fair’ skin.
Gradwolf & sridharraman have eloquently said what I would have, but I think one point bears repeating – the economics of racism. I’m not saying the economics of movie making are irrelevant, but I think it’s too often used as a red herring to disguise unwillingness to challenge existing racial and gender privileges/power structures. I think the audience has proved time and again that if they make them (films with actors of color) we will watch.
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brangan
February 10, 2016
Regarding the “it’s there on TV” argument, it’s not as easy. Most of these niche shows (Empire, etc.) are on cable, and the audience that sees these shows will, of course, go watch films with non-white actors.
This post is about the mainstream — where we’re talking shows like Mike and Molly. The change I’m talking about has to happen here. The moment one of the big four networks casts black actors in a Big Bang Theory or a Friends… Then we can talk.
I agree the studios are wimping out, but the audiences are the problem too. You could point to the rare Straight Outta Compton, but how many such movies come out per year as compared to all-white films? How many non-white rom-coms / superhero films/ weepies / Oscar baits do we get?
Unless the “mainstream” changes, nothing will.
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Vanya
February 10, 2016
@BR, except OitNB and Master of none, all the examples I listed are on ABC (one of the major networks).
@Punee: “I repeat, a so-called “Black” guy playing a fictionally nordic character is the same as a so-called “white” guy playing a fictionally egyptian character.”
At the risk of stating the obvious, the reason these scenarios are not the same is because black and other minority actors are already working with a very limited pool of roles. Taking a role from this pool and handing it to a white actor therefore has significantly different consequences than the reverse, and more so because it happens more frequently.
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KP
February 10, 2016
@brangan “My point is that a big “mainstream-looking” Caucasian star is being cast as an African queen.”
I believe Cleopatra was Caucasian of Greek descent.
-KP
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Punee
February 10, 2016
@Vanya: We are talking of the principle here. Not the politics. But I guess for a lot of people they are the same thing 🙂
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Punee
February 10, 2016
@Anu: Wow. So casting Christian Bale in Exodus is now being compared to slavery? Wut.
Yes, the Indian general public’s obsession with fair skin is pathetic and disgusting, but why should a producer pay for their sins?! Its very much like the cigarette warning before movies. Next in a Tamanna movie we can ask for the warning to read “Tamanna being of Sindhi/Pakistani origin is much more fair skinned than most South Indians, please to be warned”.
Why must art and its producers be the target all the time? Changing the mindset of an entire people takes millenia. Using art as a crutch is not going to help speed that process, not one bit.
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Nee
February 10, 2016
“The moment one of the big four networks casts black actors in a Big Bang Theory or a Friends… Then we can talk.”
There are black shows-movies, for black audience; there are white shows for white audience; So there is segregation in movies/tvshows just like in real life where whites live in their own communities and black in their own. A part of it one could think of is that there is a certain lingo/culture which the african-americans have that the whites may not appreciate and vice-versa. Though it might work in rush hour genre.
http://www.ondvdreleases.com/best-african-american-movies/
The african population is 11% so to ask for a friends like show where all four are black would really not be true representation of ‘reality’, would it?
Then there are shows like SNL which is completely race free, with plenty black and white standup comedians mixed in (I would say purely merit based show; if you are good comedian, you are in). Of course they cannot have someone doing a caricature of bill clinton be black person (or Obama by white actor) and I would say that is not racism.
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Punee
February 10, 2016
There was a time not long ago when plays and nautankis featured men play-acting as women. It took some 200 years to change that. To get audiences mature enough to accepted women on stage and later on screen.
In smaller Indian towns there is still a stigma around actresses, they are referred to as nachne-wali, or as Sonakshi Sinha’s recent twitter spat shows- as “women who will go naked for money”, but at least actresses are on screen.
Stop-gap solutions never work.
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Anu Warrier
February 10, 2016
Wow. So casting Christian Bale in Exodus is now being compared to slavery? Wut.
Reading comprehension might help. The crutch of using ‘economics’ as an excuse was being compared to slavery making economic sense as well.
And no, you don’t need a warning when you cast a fair skinned actor. Rejecting an actor because of his skin-colour is the very definition of racism.
Changing the mindset of an entire people takes millenia. Using art as a crutch is not going to help speed that process, not one bit.
Rather a dichotomy, don’t you think? If changing the mindset requires millennia (really?), then it has to start somewhere, don’t you think? Why should we not hold our art to the same standards as we demand from everyone else? If rejecting a dark-skinned person for a job based on his race, religion, ethnicity… is racist, why is it not so when they are not given the roles in film, television, theatre? Kal Penn had to famously change his name on his résumé to even be called for auditions. What is that, if not racism? And how can you defend it, because ‘art’?
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brangan
February 10, 2016
Nee: Absolutely. Which is what I mean by saying the biggest stars (in any culture, in any country) are those that are accepted by the majority, the mainstream. I’m not saying the criticisms against the Oscar body aren’t warranted, but they too represent the mainstream.
A few token nominations isn’t going to fix this issue, which is much more deep-rooted.
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Vanya
February 10, 2016
@Punee: I don’t know what you mean by politics and principle, but if politics means acknowledging that the base rates for two practices are different, then sure they are the same thing for me.
Back to the economics argument, i wanted to add that adding a white female and black and Latino males to the roster of one major franchise didn’t prevent it from becoming the highest-grossing opening of all time.
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Punee
February 10, 2016
@Anu: If you don’t think changing the mindset of millions/billions of people takes a minimum of a couple of centuries then I am afraid that you are living in a cocoon or are wantonly ignorant of India’s historical grappling with casteism, colorism, sati system, burkha/veil system, child-marriage, sex-selective abortions etc- most of these practices are banned politically but continue in principle.
The lower castes are now allowed to walk on the same street without having a broom attached to their backs to “Sweep away” their polluting shadows but nothing else has changed. And this is inspite of the much-vaunted reservation system.
And now we are looking for reservations in the acting business. Sigh. I wonder why people don’t ask for more “Representation” in other parts of the movie business, like how many latino vs. Native American vs. White cinematographers…..of course, its not that visually powerful an aspect….
Rome was not built in a day 🙂
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tonks
February 10, 2016
Back to the economics argument, i wanted to add that adding a white female and black and Latino males to the roster of one major franchise didn’t prevent it from becoming the highest-grossing opening of all time.
Vanya : Absolutely true. But this has been criticized as “hyper-tokenism” here :
http://blogs.indiewire.com/shadowandact/hyper-tokenism-iii-hiding-the-hispanic-while-the-force-awakens-20160111
“Because there was no one of color like a Ryan Coogler or a F. Gary Gray behind the camera to advocate for the Finn character and perhaps convince the White filmmakers that giving the Black character a background in sanitation was demeaning and that rendering this Black character unconscious for the final act of the film was the opposite of racial inclusion, nothing stopped them. Because there were no women of color, like an Effie Brown or an Ava DuVernay behind the camera, the White filmmakers easily convinced themselves that placing a beautiful Academy Award winning Black actress behind a hideous CGI caricature was an opportunity for her to broaden her acting range even though that CGI caricature had little to do in the middle of the film and nothing to do in the final act of the film. Because there was no one of open Hispanic descent behind the camera like a Robert Rodriquez, the White filmmakers easily dropped the Poe Dameron character from 3/4’s of the film’s narrative and convinced themselves that the circumstances of the White characters were more interesting than the ethnic “non-ethnic” character who opened the film.”
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vijay
February 10, 2016
“The message – fair is the only thing that’s lovely”..
..and the fatter the better.. The Dravidian fetish for fat out-of-market bimbos from Bombay or Punjab is legendary. No wonder that the first temple for an actress in Tamilnadu was built for Kushboo.. but not before she had added 50 pounds to her flab.
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Anu Warrier
February 10, 2016
a couple of centuries
mil·len·ni·um
məˈlenēəm/
noun
plural noun: millennia
1. a period of a thousand years, especially when calculated from the traditional date of the birth of Christ.
Which, therefore, means thousand years multiplied by x.
And I didn’t say it doesn’t take time to change. (I do wish you would take the trouble to read my comment before responding!) I said change is not going to happen if we don’t start somewhere.
And who spoke about reservation? None of us here are asking for certain roles to be reserved for blacks/Latinos/native Americans. We are talking about how ‘economics’ is an excuse to shut out certain races/people, and how that is not right.
And excuse me, we do (at least here) talk about how the minorities are represented (or not) in every field, not just of film-making, but business, education, science, wherever.
It is absolutely essential that we call out racism and/or lack of representation when we see it. How else do you think change can come about? By sitting on our hands and pretending that ‘art’ is above such things? By saying, ‘Oh it will take centuries for the mindset to change so we shouldn’t be looking at it now?’
How on earth do you think change can come about if we are not willing to take a stand on things that matter? You’re wifully blind to think that change will just happen. It will happen only if we make it happen.
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Nee
February 10, 2016
Punee, agree with pretty much all you are saying. It DOES take centuries to make a change in right direction, at mass level. It took, for instance, centuries to convert quite a few meat eaters into vegetarian, by thought process, in a country like india where we still have meat eaters. How about that same movement in USA, which is largely meat eater; there is peta and scientific research but to take meat away from mouths of people ain’t easy. It will surely take centuries before that can happen. I brought out food habits to show that change is not easy, even at baser level.
Forget the larger world issues, adding you (punee) in this site (of BR) isn’t easy. There is a certain set of people and if you go ‘against’ the thought, you will be villified. Because again, it is a change, we are talking about. Something/someone people are not used to. is different. is seen as challenging the existing structure.
On the broom behind the back: was it not just restricted to peshwa; isn’t it largely about ‘power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely’, more than anything (caste/creed/money).
Overall I would say it takes a lot of courage, conviction, talent. With looks of Naseer/OmPuri to have the b@#$s to enter film industry, where everything is dependant on looks and nothing much at all. For Smitha Patil to rock the acting world of hindi cinema (where the fact that she was dark skinned was moot point) with later on, all of them acted in commercial cinema (smitha was heroine of Amitabh also) and successful at that. None of them wasted time on shouting “discrimination” and kept working hard that eventually brought them their individual successes.
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vijay
February 10, 2016
A sport like NBA, predominantly played by black players, is watched by an audience which could be predominantly white. So if this doesn’t happen in cinema, it could just be because the acting/directing talent numbers among the black could be much less in proportion. Like somebody mentioned above, just a case of demographics, not even economics. And nothing connected to racism.
After all a guy like Will Smith and his movies like “I am Legend” do make tons of money at the BO. There just aren’t enough Will Smiths as there are Matt Damons.
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Shalini
February 10, 2016
“There are black shows-movies, for black audience; there are white shows for white audience…”
The difference is that in the minds of many, “white” shows/films = universal/mainstream while black/minority = niche. Frankly, all this denunciation of “tokenism” or “quotas” in the arts completely misses the point. No one is advocating for affirmative action in awards shows! What we’re saying is the definition of what qualifies as “mainstream” is oppressively narrow and it’s time to expand.
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Nee
February 10, 2016
BR and gang: Have any of you watched “lost”. It wasn’t a cable show.
Here are some major points in this hit show
I could go on and on….basically all boxes could be ticked….race…religion..orientation..
All of americans who (white-black-purple) watched the show and had water-cooler conversations on it for years (hours together at one time for as long as the show was on). It was quite a success.
There is hope.
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vijay
February 10, 2016
Closer to home, barring the occasional Kalyaaana samayal samadham, why aren’t more movies revolving around Tambrams like say a Meendum Kokila, or MMKR, or Aaha are’nt being made? Is it racism, economics or demographics?
Solomon Baddy Rangaiah , moderate the debate…
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
February 10, 2016
/Look at Tamil and Telugu films, which routinely shun brown-skinned heroines for fair-skinned North Indian imports, who, in these milieus, look like stranded aliens, whose spaceship took off without waiting for them
I’m reminded of Kangana[m] Ranaut’s casting in Dhaam Dhoom. Glad that she left the South to concentrate on Bollywood!
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sridharraman
February 11, 2016
So, based on the discussion here, it looks like we have reached a point where even complaining about lack of diversity is a huge crime. Wow!
It’s sad that the discussion isn’t even about the need for affirmative action or not. Even protesting the inequalities is construed as definite path towards “reservation” (like that’s a bad thing, but different topic!) and all dissent shut down with either “don’t complain about X, because Y (also) happened” or “it’ll take eons for X to ever go away, so relax and don’t crib”.
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Vanya
February 11, 2016
@Tonks: Thanks for that article — great read! I can’t argue with most of what they said, but wanted to bring up 2 points. SW made massive strides in terms of its female characters; after giving Leia little action (in spite of her being force sensitive) in the original trilogy and obliterating Padme’s character in the second one, they finally gave us Rey who doesn’t need to hold anyone’s hands to run. More importantly, this time around they remembered to include additional female characters like Maz Kanata and Phasma. I know this sounds paltry, but it’s a big deal for the franchise! Perhaps her lineage requires Rey to be white? (I’m calling it, Obi-wan must have gotten lonely on Tattooine.)
Second, I read somewhere that Poe was not meant to be a major character initially. But Oscar Issac’s chemistry with John Boyega was so good, they decided to extend his role. Of course, this begs the question why they chose someone of Issac’s caliber for a minor role, but oh well.
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Anu Warrier
February 11, 2016
Nee, Om, Naseer and Smita were able to come into films only because there was a thriving ‘art cinema’ movement at that point. Let’s be very clear about it – they remained niche actors for a long time. And even when they moved into commercial cinema, they weren’t the names which bankrolled the films they were in. But it is because of them, and people like them, that an Irfan Khan can pick and choose his roles today. However, even today, Irfan Khan is not ‘hero’ material. His name is not going to sell a film on its own. That is economics for you. And for every token Irfan Khan or Nawazuddin Siddiqui, there are a hundred others who do not get even a look in, because they are not fair, six-pack displaying wooden blocks of wood.
Things are changing, yes. And it takes time, yes. But they will not change unless we make a push to change them.
And sorry, but any disagreement with Punee is a ‘vilification’ of her?
@Shalini,
No one is advocating for affirmative action in awards shows! What we’re saying is the definition of what qualifies as “mainstream” is oppressively narrow and it’s time to expand.
Sigh! Preach it, sister!
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Anu Warrier
February 11, 2016
@sridharraman, I can’t click ‘like’ on your comment because I don’t have a WordPress account, and the upvote/downvote buttons have disappeared (for me), but I just wanted to say, thank you! I feel a bit like I’ve fallen down the rabbit hole.
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Nee
February 11, 2016
“However, even today, Irfan Khan is not ‘hero’ material”
Jazbaa and Piku didn’t happen at all. Of course he will not be cast as hero in hollywood mainstream cinema.
Naseer and his gang of ‘artist’ wouldn’t work in mainstream cinema even if they were given lakhs, because as Naseer says it many time, tht mainstream cinema is crap and running around trees and other unreal stuff is not his cup of tea (even though he did do “thirchi-topi-wale and was superhit, for a friend). Smitha came home bitterly crying after performing a song scene in rain where hero was all over her. These are true actors/artist and didn’t come in to rake millions. Nawaz is also in that category.
change/economics/racism: debate is really about::
Does cinema create the change?
Does cinema follow the society as it is?
Which is the pre-cursor? Which comes first. Chicken or egg.
Solomon Baddy Rangaiah: lol
P.S: too many grammer mistakes made galti se… typing in hurry… but no excuses for poor writing. No wonder got many dislikes 😦
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Nee
February 11, 2016
“And I say this as a dark-skinned, lower-caste south Indian woman who has faced enough casteism and colorism to make your eyes bleed.”
XOXO girlie. I feel your pain. As a “upper” caste indian with light skin-eyes… there is only discrimination and hate, I faced. All my life. Reverse discrimination? I have been punching bag for every kind of hatred and have been singled out.
The only thing is: it is their problem. It is them. it is NOT about us. People will find something, anything to hate.
No matter what
Caste-creed-culture-religion-accent-hairstyle-walkingstyle-money-non-money-weight (too less too much) bad english-good english… just endless list. People will find something, anything to hate (about you): That ultimately is the knowledge that I was able to let go and be free.
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Apu
February 11, 2016
Gosh, great writeup BR, as always, and very nuanced.
And this comment section – delicious.
@Vanya/Anu/Tonks/Gradwolf/Shalini (and some others), thanks for putting into words and quoting some examples too.
Two points made by others that I wanted to comment on:
@Vijay: “A sport like NBA, predominantly played by black players, is watched by an audience which could be predominantly white” and so…if this doesn’t happen in cinema, it could just be because the acting/directing talent numbers among the black could be much less in proportion.”
First off, it is not correct to compare sports and movies. NBA, or rather Basketball, is not a “black” sport, it is mainstream. Even if you think of it as a movie, then, this is a case where the opportunities or “roles” are equal, and the black player qualifies. On the other hand, in movies, there are hardly roles for black or any person of color. Which is what Viola Davis attributed to when she said “The only thing that separates women of color from everyone else is opportunity.”
Second, by stating that the talent is less in proportion and that is why they are not there, you are bringing up the chicken-and-egg problem.
“And nothing connected to racism”: Right, and white privilege is just a conspiracy theory.
@Srijithunni:
“Actually the whole Black Racism controversy is over-hyped.” “The actual racism there, is towards the red and brown folks. The Blacks are pretty much celebrated when compared to them.”
Just to sum up, I would not even want to go into someone of color playing a historical role, and will bypass the debate of “is it historically accurate” (because I think that is being discussed on this board already). All that I see is that even for movies that are supposedly fictitious, for e.g. to take a wild example “21 Jump Street”, why are almost all characters white? It just seems to be a case of “white washing” the world. When you cannot walk on the road in US without seeing a person of color, the reality depicted in the movies is pretty different.
And I would say the same is the problem in India. Movies are made to sell dreams, true, but it would not hurt to try and make dreams closer to realism.
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vpjaiganesh
February 11, 2016
Have no point in this .. just wanted to dispel the commonly held myth that Ben Kingsley is a through white guy.. His birth name is Krishna Bhanji and his father is of Gujarati descent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Kingsley
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Yossarian
February 11, 2016
@Nee: /Forget the larger world issues, adding you (punee) in this site (of BR) isn’t easy. There is a certain set of people and if you go ‘against’ the thought, you will be villified. Because again, it is a change, we are talking about. Something/someone people are not used to. is different. is seen as challenging the existing structure./
Seriously?? 🙂
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Nee
February 11, 2016
” (It’s even more startling that Scott admitted this, in these politically correct times.)”
didn’t Nehru say “profit is dirty word, I don’t want to hear it” to JRD, when latter suggested some business plan.
Anurag K. couldn’t get money to make his mega disaster-opus with Ranveer, in B.V. and had to drop him and hire Ranbir. SLB could have a better bajirao in Bajpai or some other theater actor but to make his grand movie, he had to hire more saleable star.
“Not that economics isn’t one of the reasons, just that it shouldn’t be used as the means of silencing people’s opinions and protests, that’s all.”
Soon hollywood will wake up to how global their product is and put more non-white actors in it. Irrfan, Deepika in XXX, Aishwarya, Pinto…. this is the beginning.
Krishna Bhanji had to change his name to a christian name to just get his foot in the door (it wasn’t his looks essentially but his name that was non-christian sounding). Kal Penn is another one that comes to mind. Mindy fortunately has American name but her show is not only super successful but she is dark, weight challenged indian alright. IF you are talented and you have hit show, no one cares what you look like. No one is in it for charity.
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Punee
February 11, 2016
@Anu Warrier: I find SRK to be uglier than Irrfan Khan, and yet he is the King.
If Irrfan doesn’t touch the hearts of as many people as a much shorter, squat-nosed, dark skinned guy who played a murderer/stalker in his first few films (all of which were HUGE hits) that is not particularly anyone’s fault. It’s just an X factor that SRK had that Irrfan doesn’t.
Ranveer Singh is not as conventionally “good looking” as Ranbir Kapoor and yet look where he is.
Deepika Padukone is much more dark skinned and broad boned than Anushka Sharma and yet she is the bigger star. No conventional film star before her has managed to be such a big hit despite looking so obviously “muscular” and athletic.
What about Kajol? “Kaali hai, moti hai, naati hai” is what Salman’s character said about her in KKHH. If she hadn’t quit films when she did who knows where she would have reached.
And Rani Mukherji? Also short, dark and fat.
I don’t understand why Smita Patil is always the example used. Sigh. Jaya Bhaduri was dark and squat too. Rekha…even…she was never thin, she always had a slight tummy, dark hair, dark skin and yet…
@Nee: Using the example of vegetarianism with a beef-eater like me is not winning you any brownie points…
I don’t know why you would think that I am being “vilified”. I hold unconventional opinions, and people (not just on this tiny speck of the internet) don’t always “get” me. Isn’t using words to understand each other the essence of debate though? Chillax. I am not here to convert anyone nor will I be converted by the sheer numbers against me. LOL.
I am an extremist when it comes to freedom of speech, so even if someone says “Die, b***ch, die” I would think they were well within their rights to do so 😀
God, people in this country are so touchy. Why get so dramatic about a discussion on the internet…
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Punee
February 11, 2016
@Nee: “On the broom behind the back: was it not just restricted to peshwa; isn’t it largely about ‘power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely’, more than anything (caste/creed/money)”
Don’t fracking make excuses for the obvious casteism of the peshwas. Did they make all communities wear the broom behind their backs? Or was it only one? If it was about power then they should done it to everyone.
Dr. BR has rightly said that the British liberated the lower castes and tribes of India. Without them we wouldn’t even know of the concept of equality and would have continued taking shit from these so-called powerful despotic rulers.
I have totally lost my mood to debate now that I know you were “defending” me while you were defending this shit at the same time. Please stay away from me- like a million, zillion miles away. I don’t need people like you.
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Yoganand Netrakanti
February 11, 2016
The last paragraph in the article shows a very narrow view on the part of the writer for the lines of demarcation between “brown-skinnedheroines” of “Tamil and Telugu films” and “fair-skinned north Indian imports”. Is it it not the Tamil and Telugu imported to the Hindi film industry in the past starting from Vyjanthimala to Sridevi, even Vijaya Shanthi, Bhanupriya. In between the south-film industry has imported Hemamalini, Jayaprada. The writer should have mentioned about Ramya Krishnan, Anushka are very popular even after a decade or more of their entry in the film-industry. Who said they are shunned?
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shaviswa
February 11, 2016
Well written and the discussion via comments is even more interesting.
But one thing still remains unanswered: why is there an expectation that the mainstream audience need to change their POVs and tastes? Films are made to pander to audience tastes and not the other way around.
To give an example, even within Tamizh movies, we have to segregate them as films that pander to the tastes and sensibilities of A,B and C centers. A Mani Ratnam can be accused of making films that ensure that a person with a non-urban background cannot act in them. Why shouldn’t Mani Ratnam cast Vijay Sethupathi or the Attakathi hero in OK Kanmani?
Another example is Virumandi – I felt that Kamal was poorly cast in that role. Kamal is too fair and too sophisticated to play the role he did in Virumandi. Similarly, his role in Kadhala Kadhala. Whereas in 16 Vayadhinile the makeup ensured that he “looked the part.” It was his star power that pulled the crowds to the theater.
We need to understand that it is not wrong that the audience prefers to watch a film that reflects their social surrounding. And also prefer to watch the characters with actors that they are accustomed to watching. The success of a film rests with the audience. If they accept the casting in a film, reflected by its success, then the film maker is justified in doing so.
Otherwise this would be an endless debate. Where do we draw the line? Can we now question by Farhan Akhtar played Milkha Singh instead of casting a sardar in the role?
Someone in the comments section above mentioned that films need not reflect reality. These are just images, they are works of fiction, and the makers need not try to replicate real life on screen. Let films remain fantasies, fantasies that entertain us.
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apex
February 11, 2016
@ Punee: plz don’t let these ‘debates’ pin u down …or soil ur mood
The fact is that u r super, u r a star, Chin up & cheer up 🙂
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apex
February 11, 2016
@ Punee:
If people are naming themselves as “eenup”
Or
“Nee”
Or
“Anon”
Or worried about ones “likes” obsessively
One must be doin something right
Gimme a high 5 🙂
LikeLiked by 2 people
Rahini David
February 11, 2016
I am quite confused about a lot of things in this thread. I will ask my questions one by one.
I admit that I like that Irrfan Khan dude more than I like any other hindi actor ever and I have not even seen any of his work. I don’t know why. But are there people who find Irrfan Khan better looking that SRK?
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Kurinji
February 11, 2016
//Look at Tamil and Telugu films, which routinely shun brown-skinned heroines for fair-skinned North Indian imports, who, in these milieus, look like stranded aliens, whose spaceship took off without waiting for them//.
Not just the skin color, looks like ” the dumber the better ” is the policy in casting heroines. It is baffling why someone as talented as Parvati menon is seen in very few good roles while the likes of trisha frown their way through stardom. had Suhasini, radhika, shoba been born a decade and half later, they would have been play sister in law in 11 o clock mega serial at best. Even otherwise earthy films find a way o squeeze in a pale north Indian heroines. The anglo Indian angle in adukalam is quite ingenious I admit. When was the last time we saw a female lead who is more than a love interest ? (of course there is ok kanmani and few other exceptions).
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Punee
February 11, 2016
@apex: Thanks babe. You are the only one who can cheer me up. ❤
Gosh. People can be so sick at times. I would take a 100 people with opposing views over these anonymous creeps.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
February 11, 2016
A Mani Ratnam can be accused of making films that ensure that a person with a non-urban background cannot act in them. Why shouldn’t Mani Ratnam cast Vijay Sethupathi or the Attakathi hero in OK Kanmani?
shaviswa: I’m more of the opinion that he often casts star-kids in his films – who on the earth would cast somebody like a Abhishek Bachchan in three successive films?
I’m eagerly awaiting Sonam Kapoor’s turn. 🙂
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apex
February 11, 2016
It’s wierd to say & pardon the exalted self aggrandisation, but last few days some seem to be “copying” me, the writing style, even the lingo, The DISJOINTED syntax & grammar
The trademark typos – For eg “nee”
It’s fine gals: have no problem with it, but to avoid confusion to others – And this CAN be CROSSCHECKED by ip
I’m neither “eenup” Nor “nee” – Or anyone else – Neither “day” nor “night”
Am the one and only 1
(With a rose in one hand & the “oblivion” gun in the other) 🙂
apex
LikeLiked by 1 person
Deepak
February 11, 2016
I was quite happy with the casting in Force Awakens – I almost find it mind-boggling that people still complain about racism in it. So Finn was in sanitation? He’s a fricking soldier, and unless you’re fighting all the time, you are expected to pull your weight in any army that’s worth it’s salt. So during downtime you have to do another job – that’s not racism, that’s just the Empire/New Order for you. And about him being unconscious in the final act – I don’t know if the author of that article realized that it was barely 20 mts at the end of the movie and it was just a continuation of the theme that Rey doesn’t need a guy (black or white) to hold her hand – she could hold her own in a fight. Plus, there’s at least 2 more movies coming out, and Boyega is right front and center in all the promos, posters, trailers. Finn will definitely get more screen time and more things to do. Same for Poe Dameron. I find the writer’s lack of faith in the force disturbing. Force choke
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Anu Warrier
February 11, 2016
Punee, I know you pride yourself on your ‘unconventional’ thoughts, but the truth of the matter is that there are many people who think like you about the matter of race. And that is the tragedy.
And you seem to be missing the point. As Sridhar Raman said, it is sad that even pointing out that discrimination exists and that we need a larger representation for minimised peoples is becoming a crime. It has devolved into an ‘X also has it bad; why should Y complain?’
This is the second time I have been accused by your acolytes of viciously attacking / vilifying you. I have no wish to have this matter deteriorate into the morass it did on the Bajirao… thread, so I will end it here.
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Nee
February 11, 2016
I am not pro caste. I have seen the world. People with power will abuse it. In name of caste, religion, skin color, gender…what have you. A group of humans will exploit/abuse another group, based on that power. It is not time bound. It is not place bound.
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Nee
February 11, 2016
“Please stay away from me- like a million, zillion miles away.”
Calm down. I made up story on upper caste, light-skinned being, so you can see your own argument of reverse discrimination. When things are subjective, suddenly we don’t believe in “reverse” discrimination, do we ?
Beef-eating: The point was not vegetarianism or beef eating: The point was change: and I was supporting you that change is not easy, even at baser level of food habits.
What we believe in is subjective, based on our own experience, which is always limited.
If we arm-chair critics, in our own bedrooms, were so gung-ho about change, we shouldn’t be buying tickets of bahubali and all such movies, and make it super-duper sucessful, because it had white-skinned Tamanna in it, so finally the producer worrying about economics, would be hiring dark-skinned actresses and correct all patriarchy/regressive ideas in the movie, so we all can see those movies.
when it comes down to putting our actual foot down, where it really matters, we don’t.
But cyber-outrage-war is what we are capable of.
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Karthik
February 11, 2016
This story seems relevant to your blog post. Also, awful response from Ms.Streep.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ec98b0dc5ea14bc2971232ff004616bd/berlin-film-festival-open-german-capital
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R
February 11, 2016
I remember reading about an Amala fan club in this blog… never about an Archana or Shoba fan club…😀
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Mambaxha Manidhan
February 11, 2016
Sir you should check out Aziz Ansari’s comedy ‘ Master of none’ now streaming on Netflix.
In the episode, ‘ Indians on TV’ , he allocates the entire episode to racism, wherein a producer gets into trouble after using a leaked email shows him using a racist phrase ‘ curry in a favour’.
But, for me the USP of the show occurs in the previous episode, that examines the origins of his Tamil father. They show a flashback based in Tirunelveli hilariously misspelt as ‘Thirulnaalvali’ (Aziz doesn’t know an iota of Tamil) . But , the best part is the song thats playing in the background during the entire flashback ” Chandrodhayam oru pennanadho “!
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Nee
February 11, 2016
Acolyte:
someone who follows and admires a leader
someone who helps the person who leads a church service
If that is the definition, then I don’t “follow” anyone and no one is leader or leader or church service.
Secondly who accused you? It was a very general observation from not necessarily this thread.
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brangan
February 11, 2016
Via email…
Continuing with some interesting discussions on race and racism in India, it could be said that there broadly exist an Aryan, a Dravidian and a Tibeto-Burmese race. While Dravidian (Madrasi-as they are reffered to ) is unique to the Subcontinent and Tibeto-Burmese (Chinkee-as they are called) being confined to SE Asia, the Aryan being more similar to our NW neighbors than to say NW Europeans may require a sub class called ‘Desi-Aryan ’ their closest relative being their racial siblings in Pakistan divided by a 60 year old border but undeniably united by blood through millennia.
It must also be noted that the Desi-Aryans are all brunette. A recent genetic study in the Hindu appeared to be incomplete without representative samples from across the NW border. As racist superiority (it sounds hilarious) is being played out on our streets and in cinema casts, whether our Desi-Aryans will be able to net some decent roles in Hollywood as compared to African is more than a million dollar question. While ‘Fair and Lovely’ is not helping we should consider making in India a ‘Fairer and Blondie’ the trick being that it should be applied to every single body crevice given the American penchant for invasive cavity searches on some of our countrymen who are not surprisingly mistaken for their racial twins – Understand the Brits call them Pakis?
Regards,
Deva
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brangan
February 11, 2016
Via email…
Had a punch that came from deep within!
Rgds
Diwakar
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brangan
February 11, 2016
Via email…
Hello Sir,
Read your article ‘Not a black and white issue’. It was awesome,especially the last para referring Telugu Tamil films.Very true and its been like that for years.The content was kind of enlightening one.
Hope u can come up with more on this subject.
Wishing u luck
Vishnu
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brangan
February 11, 2016
Via email…
I am writing from the US. It is a race to the bottom. As Bollywood takes more white actresses including Giselle Monteros among others, Tamil and Telugu films use fair skinned actors. At this rate who knows, dark skinned Tamil actors may end up acting in African films, although I must say that blacks here have a lot of self-respect unlike Indians and Asians.
Best
Raj
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brangan
February 11, 2016
Via email…
Hello,
Racial discrimination can lessen only when stereotypes are broken. Interracial marriages would help. Aren’t Northeastern people a numerical minority? And aren’t even fewer talented actors?
Do not think for a moment that I justify racial stereotypes; I am a victim myself. But I have learned to turn my multi-ethnicity to my advantage by adapting to any place I need to go to. And by shrugging off queries as to my ethnicity by replying that I’m a “multi-local” ( inspired by a TEDTalk).
Now, the touchiest topic: skin color. What do you have to say about the English language itself when bad times are “dark days”, an angry mood has a “dark expression”, ignorance is being ” in the dark “, thieves have their faces blackened……I could go on. Rotting bananas turn black in color; car tyres are black; dirty hands shed black rivulets when washed with soap and water. The point is that language, which reflects culture and societal thinking, attributes multiple meanings to words. Since English is the language of white-skinned people, black is a negative thing. Did you know Swahili does not use the word ” black” or “dark” with negative connotations?!!
Stop calling it racism; bias in movies stems from economics. It’s the language I am writing to you in that is the source of the racial bias you write about so eloquently.
Regards,
Nakul Uppal
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hari
February 11, 2016
ellam ponga paa, pulla kuttingala padikka vainga, ponga please
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brangan
February 11, 2016
This is part of the point I am making (plus, the rest of the interview is manna for Michael Mann fans):
“The Oscar nominations are for achievements at the top of someone’s career. It’s less an Academy issue than an employer issue. Employers have to hire with diversity for people to do content that can become choices for Academy members to nominate… The choices presented to Academy voters are the choices presented by the industry, which elected which movies to make and which people to hire. The real change has to occur at the base. It’s a huge issue.”
http://www.vulture.com/2016/02/michael-mann-looks-back-on-his-career.html
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Nee
February 12, 2016
The issue is complex. It is easy to say racism (clooney, damon) and look good. Same as easy for people to say intolerance and do award wapsi and look good (I suppose). But it is always more complex/complicated issue and not so black and white (no pun intended).
On Michael Mann: he is 70 year old white male, no. So below would apply to him:
“As of 2014, the Academy was 94 percent white, 76 percent male, and an average of 63 years old. Do 63-year-old white men readily identify with a gangsta rap biopic set in the late ‘80s? Do they see it in the same grandiose fashion as they would, say, a film about a ‘50s country star or ill-fated ‘60s rock ‘n’ roller? Do the “fucks” and “niggas” in the soundtrack make it hard for them to view it in the same light as a movie about Steve Jobs or Brian Wilson? Maybe they can only relate to black struggle when it’s couched in a package they find acceptable, like a biopic about a soul singer they grew up listening to or a period piece about an embattled slave fighting for his freedom. Maybe old white men don’t know shit about new, black cinema.”
And here is Eddie Murphy back in the day:
At the 60th Academy Awards in 1988, Eddie Murphy addressed the industry’s Oscar biases.
“When they came to me and they said they wanted me to present the award for Best Picture…my first reaction was to say, ‘No, I’m not going,’” Murphy revealed. “Because they haven’t recognized black people in the motion picture industry.”
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Nee
February 12, 2016
On a separate note, this news item. Remember, the board members are highly ‘educated’ people.
“”Anti-colonialism has been economically catastrophic for the Indian people for decades. Why stop now?” Andreessen tweeted, immediately evoking a sharp reaction from Indians.”
http://www.rediff.com/business/report/zuckerberg-finds-board-members-comment-on-india-deeply-upsetting/20160211.htm
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apex
February 12, 2016
“@apex: Thanks babe. You are the only one who can cheer me up. ❤ ”
@ Punee: thanx baby…
Btw “nee” seems to be the girl “needhapa” from the other thread now in a shorter name (& dress?) 😉
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Nee
February 12, 2016
interesting watch. The topic discussed could easily be replaced with race and it still stands. Watch manoj bajpai repeatedly talking economics and that movie should make some money at least.
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Punee
February 12, 2016
@Anu: I don’t “pride” myself on my “unconventional” thoughts. I pride myself on my thoughts, period. They happen to be unconventional, I am told. And until I got active on this blog, I didn’t realize how very different they were.
And yes, I think judging someone by their capability to act in a role is more important than judging them by the color of their skin. No matter what color that skin happens to be.
I have no idea who these acolytes of mine are, and personally want to have nothing to do with the likes of “Nee”.
I am just a girl typing on her keyboard in some corner of Bangalore 🙂
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brangan
February 12, 2016
Via email…
Dear Mr Baradwaj RANGAN,
You have not mentioned Halle Berry — a black,but not so black in fact! — lamenting last week that after her Oscar about fifteen years ago,no other black got it, forgetting some Indians and others too.I feel that this kind of feeling has no meaning. Many whites including a Brit like Alfred Hitchcock never got an Oscar.In your article, you are almost asking for a Reservation in Oscars too!
Dr G.Sundaram
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Punee
February 12, 2016
@apex: I wouldn’t want to assume that about NeDhaPa who has always kept it civil.
shush now 🙂 ❤
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Anon
February 12, 2016
Sigh. What is happening to the comments section here? Ever since the boring windbags from satyamshot landed here, this whole section has taken a nose dive. Can we all keep the flirting, cattiness and irrelevant chatting to a minimum and focus on actual non personal discussions like we used to? There are so many other avenues where one can do the “thanks babe”, “you’re welcome babe”, “I think this is “that” person”. “No, it must be “this” person” BS.
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Anu Warrier
February 12, 2016
I think judging someone by their capability to act in a role is more important than judging them by the color of their skin.
You don’t really read what others are saying, do you? No one, and I repeat, no one is disputing that performance is important. We are saying that there is a dearth of representation of people of colour – black, brown, red – in roles that they could have done as competently, if not better. In roles that they fit, physically as well as by way of their talent.
When you cast Max Minghella as Divya Narendra, you have a problem, right there. Why? There weren’t enough Indian or Indian-American actors available who could have done that role equally well?
When you miscast an actor in the role of a person whose physical characters / race are known… yes, you should be called out.
And your statement that I quoted? Well, if we had a level playing field, in an ideal world, in a meritocracy, yes, that would be true. Unfortunately, we do not live in such a world. And if we need to level the playing field, so we can actually provide those opportunities so that one day we can truly say that it doesn’t matter what colour your skin is, all that matters is your performance – well, then we’d better get around to starting somewhere. Not sit around mouthing platitudes about how race doesn’t matter. Ask the people to whom race does matter!
As for your thoughts being ‘different’, I hate to break it to you, but you and thousands of others, all of whom are sure they are being ‘different’. 🙂
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Nee
February 12, 2016
“I have no idea who these acolytes of mine are, and personally want to have nothing to do with the likes of “Nee”.”
Don’t worry, you are not a leader and no one is following you, even if they agree/disagree with you, with exception of Apex. You both deserve each other and should take the cyber-romance elsewhere, more private.
I stand by Peshwa statement: If you are hurt it is not due to that but due to another statement. Centuries of guilty/hurty need to be resolved by self and not thrown around in faces of strangers. The bitterness affects you more than anyone because YOU identified yourself as “lower caste”, NO ONE else did. There is no such thing as “high” and “low” except for what you think of yourself.
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Ram Murali
February 12, 2016
Peace people Peace.
I have resisted commenting on this particular blogpost because some of the comments have gotten very, very personal and belligerent.
Anon – I respect your intent and your freedom of speech but I would humbly request you to not run the risk of not practicing what you preach.
You wrote, “Ever since the boring windbags from satyamshot landed here, this whole section has taken a nose dive.”
Then you immediately advocate against “cattiness.” I don’t mean to single you out here at all. I am just making a plea to you and everyone else to focus on debating opinions and not making comments about people whom we don’t know personally.
There are commenters like Anu Warrier and Punee whose opinions I admire a LOT, for their English, eloquence and beautiful flow of thoughts. I think we must give a lot more respect to people for HOW they put their thoughts across even if we don’t quite agree with WHAT the thoughts themselves are.
Trust me peeps, this blog will be a lot richer if the discussions were just restricted to topics and devoid of any statements about people themselves.
Case in point – “You don’t really read what others are saying, do you?”
Anu Warrier, I see that you may have gotten a little frustrated but I don’t think your comment would have lost any of its essence had it started with, “No one is disputing that performance is important.” I don’t mean to sound disrespectful to you at all; just suggesting something that I sincerely feel would make this blog less tense. I am just using your comment as an example; not saying that you are the only one making a comment like that.
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Radhika
February 12, 2016
I don’t understand the point that there is no such thing as reverse racism.
I louwe Idris Elba. I louwed him as Stringer Bell, as Luther, and as Heimdall – but I have to say, it took some suspension of disbelief to see him as a Nordic God.
I don’t understand why choosing an actor on the basis of skin is necessarily racist. If the character was supposed to be a WASP, would it make sense to cast an African American, even if was an amazing actor? If the character was modelled on Martin Luther King, why would it make sense to cast Tom Cruise as him, no matter how great his star power. I agree that with ficitional roles, the casting should ideally be colour blind. Shonda Rhimes claims to do that in her casting – seems to have succeeded well on both the principle and the economics, given how successful her shows have been. But even in fictional characters, if the character’s race was an integral part of the narrative, then how can the casting be colour blind. Let’s say the ghastly Gilmore Girls (which has me rivettedly watching its banality) – how could, say, a Korean be cast as one of the Gilmore Girls?
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Anu Warrier
February 12, 2016
Ram Murali, you should have seen what I wrote first, before better sense prevailed and I self-edited. 🙂
My issue was that the responses (to all three of my posts) assumed things I hadn’t written.
But your point is well taken in the spirit you intended. A tip o’the hat to you, sir. You’re far nicer than I am. 🙂
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Punee
February 12, 2016
@Anu: “Well, if we had a level playing field, in an ideal world, in a meritocracy, yes, that would be true. Unfortunately, we do not live in such a world. And if we need to level the playing field, so we can actually provide those opportunities so that one day we can truly say that it doesn’t matter what colour your skin is, all that matters is your performance – well, then we’d better get around to starting somewhere. ”
Yes, and you do that with your money. With the tickets that you buy. Not by dictating mores to people who invest their money into large risk-taking ventures. At least that is what I think 🙂 You can disagree without presuming that I “don’t really read what others are saying”.
@Anon and @Nee: I have been an observer in these parts for some two years now. I have seen everything that goes on here. If apex and I have cute repartee amidst all the sledging and name-calling and even outright bitching I don’t see how that is a problem to anyone except BR (who so far only seems mildly amused). If he, the owner of this blog tells me the take it elsewhere, so to speak, I gladly will.
Meanwhile those too churlish to take it in may avert their wee little eyes 🙂
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not ram murali
February 12, 2016
@Ram Murali – No offense, but who died and made you peacekeeper around these parts? 🙂 What a joker 🙂 Get out of that cave and get used to the internet first. If you think this is chaos, then go visit rediff.com. This is not a classroom for your education. Welcome to the real world.
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Anu Warrier
February 12, 2016
This has gone on long enough. Anu sits tightly on her hands.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
February 13, 2016
not ram murali? Mudila pa sami – when sockpuppetry becomes too mainstream. Meatpuppetry at its best. 🙂
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Apu
February 13, 2016
I am trying to understand what is more entertaining – the discussion or the name calling :).
To Anu: Narayana, Narayana!
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brangan
February 13, 2016
Apu: Alas, that’s one of the side-effects of free speech.
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olemisstarana
February 13, 2016
Punee: “If one believes that race is a man-made construct like caste then all this drama about black/white just amounts to reverse racism.”
God help me if I have to read this shibboleth once more. Are you being intentionally obtuse? Racism is characterized by the power structure within which it exists. Don’t confuse prejudice, ignorance, bias, economic injustice, narrow mindedness, etc. with racism. It is entirely possible for non-white people to be prejudiced against white people. I’ve seen it. BUT here lies the rub – Black People Cannot be Racist Becaue They Do Not Stand To Gain From The System. Racist ideologies privilege one race over the other (re: white over non-white). I know I am repeating myself, but here’s one more – from “Dear White People”
“Black people can’t be racist. Prejudiced, yes, but not racist. Racism describes a system of disadvantage based on race. Black people can’t be racist since we don’t stand to benefit from such a system.”
We need to be color blind instead of obsessing over what physiognomy is correct for which fictional character.
… you black? Or white? I would not normally ask such a question of anyone, but I want to understand (1) if there is a legitimacy to the position from where you are making an argument and (2) what flavor koolaid that is.
Can we stop conflating Racism with Casteism? For one this isn’t the oppression Olympics and two, the issues are very different.
Still, you can’t demand that movie directors and producers bow to a small shrill lobby of egalitarians in order to make their movie.
Uh… why not?
Using art as a crutch is not going to help speed that process, not one bit.
What else should art not do?
Also, Anu’s argument is that when you say cinema makers are driven by economics and therefore untouchable, you enter into dangerous territory, because guess what other institution was also dictated by economic concerns?
@Vanya: We are talking of the principle here. Not the politics. But I guess for a lot of people they are the same thing 🙂
Nope – two very different things. Your argument applies to some rarefied unrealistic utopia where a person’s character is judged not by his skin but by its content, but what a lot of us (I am sorry for co-opting this argument from other people, feel free to distance yourself from this) are talking about is a world full of realities, statistics, numbers, where a black girl is forced to start a campaign to find books other than ones that talk about white boys and their dogs.
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/feb/09/marley-dias-1000-black-girl-books-hits-target-with-outpouring-of-donations
Rome was not built in a day 🙂
Can you PLEASE get out of the way of those who are building it? 🙂 🙂 🙂
Also, for someone who claims to not see color or caste or creed, you are alarmingly granular about what people look like… “SRK to be uglier than Irrfan Khan,” “Ranveer Singh is not as conventionally “good looking” as Ranbir Kapoor…” “Deepika Padukone is much more dark skinned and broad boned than Anushka Sharma…” “Rani Mukherji? Also short, dark and fat.”
Nee – Obama’s president, ergo racism finito, yeah? /s
There are black shows-movies, for black audience; there are white shows for white audience; So there is segregation in movies/tvshows just like in real life where whites live in their own communities and black in their own.
Let’s go back to the days when we have water fountains for the “coloreds” as well, yeah? Separate but equal…
SNL is completely race free? http://www.salon.com/2013/09/26/saturday_night_live_is_way_too_white/
Okay, you I am just not going to bother with any more.
Srijithunni – You are absolutely correct. First Nations peoples have been marginalized for decades. But if you think the “Blacks” are celebrated, again, what brand of koolaid are you mainlining? Also, this whole reds, yellows, blacks… I suppose I should be glad you aren’t calling ’em the coloreds, wetbacks, dindu nuffins or the N word.
OMG. I can’t any more. This thread just gave me a mini rage stroke.
Ram Murali – Don’t tone police. People are entitled to their outrage.
WTF just happened in this thread.
I am only going to reply in dog memes from now on. Peace.
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olemisstarana
February 13, 2016
Anu:
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olemisstarana
February 13, 2016
@Honest Raj: Someone bought your domain name? (Hi 🙂 )
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Anu Warrier
February 13, 2016
Olemisstarana, thanks but I don’t think it’s going to work. That’s why I decided to let go. I can’t ‘like’ your post, which is why I got off my hands to write this. 🙂
In any case, nothing you say is going to get through. Anyone who is so proud of her ‘non-conformist’ thoughts that are ‘so different’ from everyone else (God bless her!) is not going to see this as anything other than people ‘not understanding’ her at all.
Please post more dog memes. 🙂
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Ram Murali
February 13, 2016
“”not ram murali”–> WOW! Say/write whatever you want but you can’t get me to behave in an uncivilized fashion just because I have the comfort of the internet. I am happy in my “cave” as a “joker.”
I am going to simply follow olemisstarana’s timely advice to me – “Don’t tone police. People are entitled to their outrage.”
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apex
February 13, 2016
@ “Anon”
Girl: nobody is asking u to post with ur real name. But atleast have the guts to use your normal usual gravatar/ moniker.. Why hiding behind an “ANON” in an already mostly “ANONYMOUS” blog?
@ Punee: v well said here brilliant
“I have been an observer in these parts for some two years now. I have seen everything that goes on here. If apex and I have cute repartee amidst all the sledging and name-calling and even outright bitching I don’t see how that is a problem to anyone except BR (who so far only seems mildly amused). If he, the owner of this blog tells me the take it elsewhere, so to speak, I gladly will.
Meanwhile those too churlish to take it in may avert their wee little eyes 🙂 ”
Coming back to “ANON” & the likes–
Tell u what–how about a FREESTYLE no holds barred ‘debate” – With NO MODERATION
something like THE PURGE 🙂
Believe me, u won’t enjoy it
Not sure there are some lurkers here who have witnessed those “events” lol
B.Ran is an excellent MODERATOR and let him decide… Don’t try to take over his Job plz
Meanwhile am suppressing my urges to break free to INTERACT with anon and the likes …
What fun 🙂
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apex
February 13, 2016
@ olemisstarana:
Omg: I couldn’t cope with one – Here’s another Punee… Wow 🙂
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apex
February 13, 2016
@ not ram Murali —
“@Ram Murali – No offense, but who died and made you peacekeeper around these parts? What a joker 🙂 Get out of that cave and get used to the internet first. ”
Imo That’s unduly unnecessary & rude to poor Raam Murali who seems a thorough gentleman …
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Ram Murali
February 13, 2016
Anu Warrier – thank you for your kind words. Rough day and it really helped 🙂
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Shalini
February 13, 2016
@olemisstarana – Thank you for calling out the policing post. Was wondering if I was the only one bothered by it.
And oh, awesome post! 🙂
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Nee
February 13, 2016
olemisstarana; You are deliberately mis-reading my statement?!?
I am saying society is still segregated, OK. Not just in Oscar season, there is racism still around and segregation is an example of it, that people can commonly understand. White people live in their own neighborhoods and so forth. So cannot have selective outrage (during oscar time). e..g BR brought FRIENDS example. One can have 3 white and 1 black, character, IF in real life there was chance for it. If there were more housing where blacks and whites lived together, if there was not such a huge dichotomy between the two cultures that one couldn’t identify/understand the other.
I would personally say non-iformed should refrain from making statments on ‘intolerance” in India, that they don’t understand as well as the people refrain from making juvenile arguements on racism, which they hardly understand or know it pnly partially from sources and are not fully informed. E.g do you understand meaning of ‘party’ in that context?
So best to not weigh in as an expert.
P.S.: please don’t bring out “I have black people living in my neighborhood” example because I am sure you do.
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Nee
February 13, 2016
Saw the salon article. It has as much credibility as Rajeep Sardesai or Burkha Dutt will have in India. Enjoy
Do read the comments under the article too.
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olemisstarana
February 13, 2016
Yo Nee bro – please see “Okay, you I am just not going to bother with any more.”
I started replying to comments in order, but then got far enough down the thread to see that, uh, well… BR REALLY believes in not censoring comments (which I applaud, though sometimes ruefully) which results in… this thread, I guess.
Cheers bro. You do you.
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olemisstarana
February 13, 2016
@Anu: For you only…
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Ram Murali
February 13, 2016
@apex – thank you for your kind words. I was certainly a little rattled, I must admit 🙂 So, thanks!
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olemisstarana
February 13, 2016
@Ram Murali: You are alright, man… hope your day got better 🙂
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brangan
February 13, 2016
olemisstarana: Censorship is a form of fascism and just plain WRONG. As grown-ups, we should, by now, have got used to the fact that people are going to say things that we don’t like, in ways that we don’t like. And if that’s a problem, then… I’m sorry, that’s really their problem. Yes, it does get messy and discussions are going to be derailed, but life’s not perfect. As Confucius said, Don’t enter Udupi restaurant if you want tandoori chicken… or something 🙂
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Anon
February 13, 2016
I’m anon because I’m. Of a regular commenter, just a reader. And cute repartee (neither cute nor repartee) is not why I come here, especially when it is this nonsense for 40 out of 50 comments.
Ram murali, I was being direct and maybe rude, but not catty.
Apex, let me guess: your idea of no holds barred is calling me c*nt a few times? I still haven’t stopped laughing from when you claimed somebody was copying your ‘trademark’ style of commenting, sorry repartee. I respect you too little to respond to any more of your bs. Do us a favour and maybe stop asking personal questions to every woman you come across in this section?
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tonks
February 13, 2016
BR said. : If Sivaji Ganesan can act as Othello, I certainly see no problem with Taylor as Cleopatra. What I’m talking about is what this casting decision perpetuates. I’m talking about the fact that the other option isn’t possible, the option that a small “non-mainstream-looking” black actress could play Cleopatra — or indeed, many of the parts a Taylor would routinely play. The studios would resist it. And audiences too will no go in as many numbers. (How many Bond or Mission:Impossible or Lara Croft type franchises do you know with black/brown actors?)
The decision to cast a black actress as Hermione (as mentioned by Punee in her earlier comment) was one such. One reason this happened is probably that colour blind casting is a little less uncommon in the UK theatre scene than in Hollywood. Though even here, things are hardly ideal :
http://www.theguardian.com/stage/theatreblog/2016/jan/13/colour-blind-casting
In the case of Harry Potter and the cursed child, this article, I thought, says it best :
“It turns out that Hermione is an ideal candidate for racebending (changing the race or ethnicity of a character routinely portrayed as white) and has long been reconstructed as black, biracial or Asian online, particularly in fan art, which Rowling has also been tweeting in support. Why? Because in a series that is as much about the evils of racial supremacy as anything else, Hermione is in a Muggle-born minority and is often the target of racial abuse (Draco Malfoy calls her “filthy little mudblood”). She is also an activist who understands and will stand up for the oppressed, whether people, giants or Hippogriffs, and who campaigns for an end to the enslavement of elves. Hermione is female, clever, strong, good, attractive, loyal, not necessarily white, and now, for the first time, black – and all at the same time.”
http://www.theguardian.com/books/shortcuts/2015/dec/21/hermione-granger-black-noma-dumezwani-harry-potter-cursed-child
Also, Olemisstrana : You rock.
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tonks
February 13, 2016
Though the first thought I had when I heard about the colour blind casting of Hermione and JKR’s response to it ( Canon: brown eyes, frizzy hair and very clever. White skin was never specified. Rowling loves black Hermione 😘 ) was how much better it would have been, if she’d shown the guts to unambiguously state Hermione’s race right from the beginning in the books. Or perhaps, at least a little later, when it was assured that the series was going to be a best seller.
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Rahini David
February 13, 2016
BR: I understand your stance on censoring comments. But I do wish you write something like the following.
http://michaelhyatt.com/permissions/my-comments-policy
Maybe not even a policy, just your opinion of what works, what does not, etc. Not exactly rocket science and most people already know what a good comment looks like. But still.
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apex
February 13, 2016
@ anon:
“Apex, let me guess: your idea of no holds barred is calling me c*nt a few times?”
Haaaw that’s obbbsccceeeeennee gal….
Plz do NOT put such a “word” into my “mouth” (& no pun intended) 🙂
It seems u repeatedly want my “attention” but I won’t give u that! Will reserve it for other good girls like Punee..
Anon : girl, learn something on how to write from Punee & now tarana first instead of moaning and complaining …& being a cry baby.
@ tarana: I like that cake …tempting
“Censorship is a form of fascism and just plain WRONG.”
Well said B.Ran…BRAVO
U have the maturity and wherewithal to be the perfect moderator thanks
@ Ram Murali
“@apex – thank you for your kind words. I was certainly a little rattled, I must admit 🙂 So, thanks!”
No problem Ram Murali….
You are an ultradecent gentleman cheers
& folks plz stop harassing this nice man ram Murali…
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sanjana
February 13, 2016
Even if a producer wants to cast a Y for example, his or her choices are very limited and he or she may opt for a readily available candidate from a larger pool. Only someone who really feels for the underutilised talent from a certain group, will go for it. As for awards, especially Oscars, the winner is never an undeserved one.
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
February 13, 2016
olemisstarana: I think you’re mistaken.
I ain’t the ever-impressive, the long-contained, the often imitated, but never duplicated … original venkatesh (the one with the small v), but the eternal, the indestructible, the incomparable … bemisal ‘V’enkatesh.
Hi. 🙂
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Vanya
February 13, 2016
“e..g BR brought FRIENDS example. One can have 3 white and 1 black, character, IF in real life there was chance for it. If there were more housing where blacks and whites lived together, if there was not such a huge dichotomy between the two cultures that one couldn’t identify/understand the other.”
Why not? The audience has no trouble suspending disbelief when it comes to the size and affordability of the characters’ apartments in Manhattan, especially given their jobs (or lack thereof), the odds of which are a million times worse than of having ethnically diverse friends. 🙂
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Radhika
February 13, 2016
Even a colour blind casting may need some context. I noticed that in Grey’s Anatomy Rhimes began with what she called colour-blind casting of the main cast, but then all the other relatives of that character were of the same cast – and then that casting had it’s own ripple effect on the story. If Hermione is black, what about her parents? Could they be of any race? In that case, would the audience just shrug and say, cool, or would the narrative have to insert something about why one Chinese man and one Latina had a black baby?
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Nee
February 13, 2016
on comment policy reminds of an ad old detergent advertisment….can easily replace “my comment is better than you comment” 🙂
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olemisstarana
February 13, 2016
@BR: Oh, I am not advocating censorship at all. Just rueing how principled you can be at times, and wondering if you, at least sometimes, wonder what it must feel like to wield that red pen… in a benevolent, not fascist manner of course. But then again, you may be a vessel of nothing but your principles, pure, unsullied by human emotion.
……aaaaand you may also just find your blog signed up for a bunch of bait and tackle sites, online ammunition sales, Trump campaign donations, put upon Nigerian royalty and some very sincere stay at home moms who earn over $1000 per hour just by using their computer. 😛 NO CENSORING, the mere act of such comments appearing on your thread is a social commentary of sorts…! (JUST KIDDING, if anything this is a caution to me. OleMissT- just read the entire damn thread before choosing who to respond to the next time.)
On a more serious note, I am going to engage in some self-censorship. I promise not to rely too much on memes as a means of communication. I use it as a means to cut the tension and draw attention to the utter absurdity of the situation, but it is ultimately a puerile resort.
I did pop over to the Bajirao thread. Even memes couldn’t save it in the end. 😀
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Anu Warrier
February 13, 2016
olemisstarana, thank you, kindly. That sponge looks, umm, good enough to eat. 🙂
And echoing tonks, girl, you rock!
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Nee
February 13, 2016
@Vanya:
I am ok with that point. Then the whole debate is who came first. Chicken or Egg. Is it cinema that leads the society in one direction or mere reflection of existing structure.
In the meantime let me watch, the hit show, The Mindy Project.
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olemisstarana
February 13, 2016
@ Honest Raj (formerly ‘V’enkatesh): Oh what a pity. I was going to take a crack at venkatesh and tell him that because of the change in handle he wasn’t – technically – a BR early adopter any more.
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Iswarya
February 14, 2016
tonks/Radhika: I don’t remember much about Hermione’s parents, except that one of them is a dentist or something? Of course, all that needs to be remembered about them is that they both are muggles. Do they actually appear anywhere in the series? (Long since I read the books – around school days). And are they shown in any of the movies?
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Uma
February 14, 2016
Let alone casting North imports, why would the likes of Amy Jackson have to be casted in Indian movies. Atleast if she had some acting talent it would be bearable.
My 2 cents is that North Imports and the likes of Amy are very comfortable with skin show and that is why the producers and the heroes cast them in Tamil movies. Maybe in the 80s and in the good old days where there wasnt so much skin show, Suhasini, Revathy, Archana were able to play leads in mainstream movies. Obviously if they didnt have the talent that they had, they would not have lasted.
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tonks
February 14, 2016
Iswarya, here you go :
http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Hermione_Granger's_father
Also, Radhika does have a point there about colour blind casting needing context. If you chose each family member from a different race for their talent alone, it would create an odd looking family. We’d need some adjusting of reality.
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Punee
February 14, 2016
“If one believes that race is a man-made construct like caste then all this drama about black/white just amounts to reverse racism.”
God help me if I have to read this shibboleth once more. Are you being intentionally obtuse? Racism is characterized by the power structure within which it exists. Don’t confuse prejudice, ignorance, bias, economic injustice, narrow mindedness, etc. with racism. It is entirely possible for non-white people to be prejudiced against white people. I’ve seen it. BUT here lies the rub – Black People Cannot be Racist Becaue They Do Not Stand To Gain From The System. Racist ideologies privilege one race over the other (re: white over non-white). I know I am repeating myself, but here’s one more – from “Dear White People”
“Black people can’t be racist. Prejudiced, yes, but not racist. Racism describes a system of disadvantage based on race. Black people can’t be racist since we don’t stand to benefit from such a system.”
——> What did anyone stand to gain from making Mahars wear a broom on their waist to sweep up their shadows? What did anyone stand to gain from barring lower caste/tribe people from accessing public water fountains? Sorry. I know I am not supposed to bring up examples of casteism, but I just happen to know it better.
We need to be color blind instead of obsessing over what physiognomy is correct for which fictional character.
… you black? Or white? I would not normally ask such a question of anyone, but I want to understand (1) if there is a legitimacy to the position from where you are making an argument and (2) what flavor koolaid that is.
—-> I am dark brown TYVM 🙂
Can we stop conflating Racism with Casteism? For one this isn’t the oppression Olympics and two, the issues are very different.
Still, you can’t demand that movie directors and producers bow to a small shrill lobby of egalitarians in order to make their movie.
Uh… why not?
—–>Because, umm, its not your money. Its kind of ill-mannered to tell people what they should do with their money.
Using art as a crutch is not going to help speed that process, not one bit.
What else should art not do?
——>I think this is a free world. Anyone can open a production house. Do so. Start making art (like the TVS Qtiyapa guy did when MTV rejected his script). This is a lot like those forcing Xtian bakeries to bake cakes for gay weddings. I mean, go bake your own cake!
@Vanya: We are talking of the principle here. Not the politics. But I guess for a lot of people they are the same thing 🙂
Nope – two very different things. Your argument applies to some rarefied unrealistic utopia where a person’s character is judged not by his skin but by its content, but what a lot of us (I am sorry for co-opting this argument from other people, feel free to distance yourself from this) are talking about is a world full of realities, statistics, numbers, where a black girl is forced to start a campaign to find books other than ones that talk about white boys and their dogs.
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/feb/09/marley-dias-1000-black-girl-books-hits-target-with-outpouring-of-donations
—–>I grew up reading Enid Blyton which featured white people and their dogs too. Woe is me. How oppressed. Gain knowledge where you can. Use it to make better art yourself. Don’t dicate mores to others. That is all.
Rome was not built in a day 🙂
Can you PLEASE get out of the way of those who are building it? 🙂 🙂 🙂
—–>Sure. As long as they are not telling others how to spend their money 🙂
Also, for someone who claims to not see color or caste or creed, you are alarmingly granular about what people look like… “SRK to be uglier than Irrfan Khan,” “Ranveer Singh is not as conventionally “good looking” as Ranbir Kapoor…” “Deepika Padukone is much more dark skinned and broad boned than Anushka Sharma…” “Rani Mukherji? Also short, dark and fat.”
——->That Rani Mukherji is short, dark and fat is a fact. To say that thus she is a different “Race” from say Anushka Sharma who is tall, slender and fair is a “MAN MADE CONSTRUCT”.
(And I said it because people kept cribbing about poor Smi Patil who by choice didn’t want to work in “commercial cinema”. Until the advent of a certain Mr.Roshan, Indian cinema was filled with people who were not “conventionally” good looking)
So to sum it up- don’t tell others what to do. The world is free. Anyone can do anything.
KThaxbai.
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Yossarian
February 14, 2016
@Punee ——->That Rani Mukherji is short, dark and fat is a fact.
Er, Fact? How exactly is that a Fact?
—–>Because, umm, its not your money.
Its kind of ill-mannered to tell people what they should do with their money….. Use it to make better art yourself. Don’t dicate mores to others.
Yes – extending that flawed reasoning – “Baradwaj Rangan, stop critiquing movies!! Go make better movies yourself!* 😀
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Bayta
February 14, 2016
“So to sum it up- don’t tell others what to do.”
Dear god, the irony!
Only good thing to come out of all this is the return of olemisstarana and, for me personally, the discovery of a new favourite commenter in Vanya. Anu – I’ve always been a fan of yours, and this thread has only increased my respect for you. Salute ladies!
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Nee
February 14, 2016
@Yossarian some people are so darn self-contradicory, taking “stands” while they are terribly confused; please let them be; they will hopefully learn as more grey seeps into hair and matter into brains. Till then roll your eyes and have cup of kapi.
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Anu Warrier
February 14, 2016
This is a lot like those forcing Xtian bakeries to bake cakes for gay weddings. I mean, go bake your own cake!
You’re frigging serious?! This must be the most appalling thing I’ve ever read on this site’s comments. Ever. You do realise, don’t you, that businesses cannot discriminate on any account? Whether it be race, class, colour, gender sexual orientation? Or are you arguing that the British were right when they said ‘Dogs and Indians not allowed’? After all, the Indians could go make their own clubs, couldn’t they? Why should they have wanted to go into a European one?
A business is in the, well, business of serving people. They do not get to decide who to serve and who not to. By the rules governing businesses here in the US, if you’re selling cakes, you sell them. You do not decide you will only sell to white people, or black people, or yellow-with-purple-dots people. Whether they buy the cake for opposite sex weddings or same sex weddings, or the weddings of their dogs, or simply to smash into each other’s face, is none of your business. Your only query should be whether they can pay for it. That. Is. The. Law. And sorry, no one is ‘forcing’ anyone to bake a cake for a gay wedding – all they are doing is ordering a cake for a wedding from a business that makes them.
And going by your flawed reasoning, then businesses need not hire people based on their caste, creed, religion. Let those people go make their own businesses! Who are they to tell someone how to spend their money!
Point two (apart from all the others): Olemisstarana said: “Black people can’t be racist. Prejudiced, yes, but not racist. Racism describes a system of disadvantage based on race. Black people can’t be racist since we don’t stand to benefit from such a system.”
You responded: ——> What did anyone stand to gain from making Mahars wear a broom on their waist to sweep up their shadows? What did anyone stand to gain from barring lower caste/tribe people from accessing public water fountains? Sorry. I know I am not supposed to bring up examples of casteism, but I just happen to know it better.
You’re seriously asking what the upper castes gained out of keeping the lower classes down? You think they did it for a lark? Because they woke up one day and wondered what to do that day to amuse themselves?
When the upper classes forced the Mahars to wear a broom on their backs, or when the ‘lower castes’ were barred from accessing drinking water? They were keeping their power structure intact. It helped (helps) to keep the lower classes/races ‘in their place’. And from that power imbalance comes a whole lot of other issues – limiting access to education, to jobs, to bettering themselves. It keeps the lower classes/races dependent on the upper classes/races. It keeps them serving their ‘masters’ – doing the jobs that those in power do not want to do.
Going by your logic, we should have just told those lower caste/tribal people to go dig their own wells! After all, we can’t tell anyone what to do with their money. And the money for these wells came from the upper castes, anyway. (Even if it was dug by the abhorred lower classes.)
(And Ram Murali, I refuse to apologise for this post. I really hope my frustration has come through clear and true.)
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Sifter
February 14, 2016
@Anu Warrier- The discussions started to be long but excruciatingly interesting, then turned to a point where banging my head against any solid object looked very appealing (my head, my wish of course) with the ‘go bake your own cake’ comment and a few salacious ‘gender figuring’ and ‘short skirt’ comments.
My thoughts are similar, but couldn’t bring myself to put it into words….a slow clap for having the patience and interest to comment on that notwithstanding your frustration.
Finally, Ms. Warrier, you come across as Ai Nou Fir Raun (I am Fearless) – Take a bow!
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Shalini
February 14, 2016
@Anu – if you make me get a WordPress account just so that I can “like” your comments, I’m going to be seriously ticked-off. 😀
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Iswarya
February 14, 2016
tonks: Thanks. As both you and Radhika say, the family has to look credible: they could actually go ahead and cast the whole Granger family as non-white then!
Anu: You rock! 🙂 bows
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Ram Murali
February 14, 2016
Anu Warrier – no apology needed whatsoever! I must confess to having been very hurt by the comment that referred to me as a “joker” that henceforth, I am going to stick to posting my views and of course, conveying my appreciation for others’ and also asking questions when I am curious to learn more.
As mentioned above, you are one of my favorite commenters on this blog. I respect your views and more importantly, your incredible use of English. Keep going.
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olemisstarana
February 14, 2016
@Punee:
Ah…. I expected a more batshit, but invigorating debate… oh well.
Right. So when I say that racism is a construct that is very different from casteism, you say that you will still use casteism as a talking point because that’s what you know the most about. That is the equivalent of a surgeon saying “I know you have lung cancer, but I am a kidney surgeon, so I’ma let you finish, but it’s your kidneys that I’m going to operate on.” OKAY.
So you are dark brown. Cool. Do you also possess enough humility to shut up and listen to those who are African-American when they talk about their issues? Every single word that I typed in my first comment to you was from an African American source. I’m not. I can never pretend to speak for a black person because I have not walked in their shoes, and it is a huge insult to pretend that I completely understand and I can represent. Because I can’t. And guess what… NEITHER CAN YOU. Now, if I believed that you were possessed of some passable level of compassion and intelligence then I would defer to your stated wisdom of occupying a body that is dark and of a lower caste. I would shut up and listen to you. I would seek you out for your opinion.
Another one of your brilliant arguments is that the audience should just be passive consumers. That they should be completely happy with the status quo. You are willing to consume the commercial, jingoistic, mainstream, regulated media because you (you precious snowflake you) have the “ability” to make the best of every situation. And so you are quite okay with a racist, casteist world, as long as it is the moneyed ones who create the diktats, ‘coz you know money money MONEEEEEY. AND you actually heap scorn on those who want to learn, question, ask, protest, because no money MONEY NO MONEY?
For someone who claims to have dealt with colorism and casteism in the past, you are alarmingly elitist. Your contention is that taste makers and creators are 100% beholden to money. Money creates and refines art. Money dictates all such media – cinema, music, visual art, theater etc. etc. You do not care about the consumers. They need to shut up, bend over and take it because they don’t have money. (We will, sail past the contradiction that it is the people who consume who create wealth for the producers, because then this argument would have tow prongs and be far too sophisticated for you to grasp.)
Therefore, every time you – and this is not the rhetorical, general large sweep of the audience you.. – this is you, PUNEE, have one infinitesimally negative thing to say about any movie that is featured on this site, ever, trust me to jump in and tell you to stop airing your opinions, because YOU do not have the MONEY to have an opinion. This is a blood oath. (Also, BR – shut down this column, you ain’t got no money to put where your mouth is. Or, you know, what Yossarian said. #sarcasm.) So. Till we meet again. (Because I know you are so principled that you will preserve this handle or identify yourself whenever you comment.)
In conclusion, I am coming to understand the pure distillation of that is your commenting persona. You aren’t cynical or nihilistic, because that would require a modicum of sincerity and feeling. Nope. what you are is the human embodiment of a complete and utter lack of self awareness. In anohter thread you mentioned, with some pride, that children under the age of twelve or ten understand you best. Um. The children I know are nothing like you, missie. Are you sure you weren’t looking into a mirror, or, maybe your school yearbook and agreeing with… you know, yourself?
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olemisstarana
February 14, 2016
+what Anu Warrier said re: casteism. I do not have the chops to weigh on that, but yes. What she said.
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brangan
February 14, 2016
olemisstarana: sniff… stifled sob… after all those signed copies i gave you…
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olemisstarana
February 14, 2016
@brangan: #NOOOOOO
If I were Martin Shkreli, I’d Wu Tang Klan your reviews. #iknowthatshellacreepy
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
February 14, 2016
Anu: I wish I could give your comment a 100 upvotes! Not that I can’t, but will be accused for sock/meat puppetry. 🙂
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apex
February 15, 2016
“They need to shut up, bend over and take it because they don’t have money.”
Saala, 2 heck wid all these fake likes and dislikes and the default groupism pervading our lives and seen on this blog
Theres that rare deserving comment that does it
Wins it
Kicks others to submission
One that deserves ..
the STAMP of apex 😉
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newbie
February 15, 2016
Anu Warrier: Well said! Well said indeed!
olemisstarana: That was brutal :). Brutal but utterly totally entirely true and sensible! Especially the thing about consumers creating wealth for producers. If money alone makes a successful film, then there wouldn’t be so many box-office bombs. The dog memes were (ridiculous yet) utterly cute though and wish you would keep them coming!
Punee: Echoing Anu Warrier, sorry to say that thing you said about cake-baking has got to be one of the most mindless comments I have ever read in this blog. A bakery is a business or a service and is subject to Equalities Act (the UK version) just like any other business. And ministers of religion are actually in fact exempt from this Act – so a priest or a nun can actually refuse to sell cakes to anyone on religious grounds but a baker cannot. (Quoting wiki) This is so that there is equal treatment in access to employment as well as private and public services, regardless of the protected characteristics of age, disability,gender reassignment, marriage and civil partnership, race, religion or belief, sex, and sexual orientation. If you still cannot understand this, suggest you google Equalities Act.
And if you don’t know already, the acting profession is exempt from this Act too. So it doesn’t actually make sense to compare diversity and race issues in acting with the ‘xtian cake-baking’ issue.
Generally on the topic: Don’t deny that the general Indian public seems to have an unhealthy obsession with fair skin (You only have to look at matrimonial ads to get an idea.) And Tamil cinema is not free of this obsession too. However, I do think we have equally had many non-Alabaster-automaton-looking lovely south-Indian imports like Nithya Menon, Lakshmi Menon, Meera Jasmine, Shalini, that keralite girl from Cheran’s Autograph movie, Asin, Nayantara and home-grown heroines like Trisha, Sruti Haasan and Samantha. And looking at ‘Thalli Pogathey’ song video from Harris Jeyaraj’s latest movie, it looks like we have a new addition to this list. So I would like to think (at least current) Tamil audience is more accepting of normal girl-next-door looks than given credit for, but I do admit there is more to be done.
And if nothing else, the lack of diversity in Oscars race has at least highlighted the race issue in no uncertain terms and has sparked a meaningful debate – so hopefully it can only be onwards and upwards from now on.
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Madan
February 15, 2016
Didn’t go through the entire thread, so sorry if somebody has already proposed this. But I recall that the late TV news anchor Jessica Savitch (on whose life the movie Up Close and Personal was also loosely based, apparently) said she only got the gig because either govt or some TV association body changed rules to mandate having more female anchors in every news channel. Sort of like affirmative action. Yes, it seems hard to believe given what news television is like today but there was a time when America preferred hiring male anchors and hired only them. Savitch had predicted that her popularity would pave the way for more female anchors to get the job on merit rather than because it was mandated. Maybe some such affirmative action is ultimately necessary to get studios to ‘represent’ different coloured groups in their films. While that may be an assault on their ‘artistic freedom’, the White Old Boys Club may never relent without a little coercion, esp if they happen to be libertarians longing for a return to the 19th century. An Oscar cannot be perforce given to a black actor just because….but if more mainstream films star them, it will happen sooner. I know it sounds like bad economics on the face of it but remember that was the case when Savitch was given the job too and she turned out to be a success and made the audience more open-minded towards female anchors.
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olemisstarana
February 15, 2016
@Tonks, Ishwarya, Radhika – regarding color blind casting needing context.
Are you familiar with Louis CK? Saying he’s a good comedian is like saying the Aeneid is a travelogue, but I’ll save the breathless fangirling for another venue. He has a TV show that is loosely based on his life (divorced father of two, traveling comedian trying to make it work one gig at a time, New York City resident). He is a tall, pale redhead, with two daughters who are blue eyed, very fair and blonde. We get through two seasons before we see his ex-wife, also the girls biological mother, who is African American. There was quite the reaction, and what did he do about it? In typical Louis CK fashion, he brandished two big middle fingers.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/27/louis-ck-why-cast-black-mother-white-children-video_n_1629950.html?
I found the choice strangely perfect within the universe he creates in the show. It’s mirthful, irreverent, completely IDGAF and So him. I would love to see more such choices. There was some rattling of pearls from the usual sections of the audience, but it’s business as usual, the show is progressing, the characters are developing, the TRPs are climbing, the birds are chirping and the world is turning.
Another instance is Denzel Washington being cast as Don Pedro in Much Ado About Nothing. His evil half brother Don John is played Keanu Reeves. Nary an acknowledgment of why Kenneth Branagh made this choice in casting. Again, I’m okay with this – it did not take anything away from my enjoyment of this excellent adaptation. Of course I realized that a Shakespearan character in the mid 1600s, in a play set in Messina, Italy is not very likely to be black (indeed, who in Shakespeare’s oeuvre apart from Othello is expected to be?) is not very likely to be black, but Denzel is as competent as Denzel is on his best day, so who cares?
On the other end of the spectrum, Katori Hall’s acclaimed play “The Mountaintop” was adapted by Ohio State University with a white man playing Martin Luther King Jr. The choice was not well received at all… and I thought it was a particularly tone-deaf choice. Yes, I realize the play is about a man who said “I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.” But there is something called context, that transcends the mere practicalities of a play/movie/sitcom, whose mother is white and therefore cannot have non-white siblings or children or cousins etc. The context that I believe is important is an entertainment industry that systematically erases minorities. I am going to quote Hall here, “I just really feel as though it echoes this pervasive erasure of the black body and the silencing of a black community – theatrically and also, literally, in the world.”
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/10/martin-luther-king-white-actor-university
Here is another example that I find particularly pertinent, particularly because it extends the implications of casting. Project Greenlight is an HBO show that gives first time film makers a chance to make a movie. The premiere of the 4th season saw the contestants meet with the producers, one of who was Effie Brown (producer, Dear White People) who drew attention to the fact that it is really easy to fall into the trap of using black actors to fill in tropes – prostitutes, thugs, drug dealers, petty criminals etc. In the episode I mention, she asks the almost completely white room to simply be cognizant of the choices they make while casting characters. Matt Damon, dear, well meaning, Liberal, Matt Damon swoops in to explain where and when diversity is appropriate. His contention is that diversity is well served while casting the people in the show, not when choosing those behind the scenes.
In other words, it’s okay to have a completely white editorial/producing/directorial/cinematographic team as long as you throw in a few characters of color in front of the screen…. which is how we end up with a #oscarssowhite. For those who talk about, hey – what about Django Unchained, Precious, The Help, Monster’s Ball, 12 Years A Slave, Driving Miss Daisy, I say please examine the type of characters being honored – slaves, civil rights activists, welfare mothers, servants, abusive parents. I am not taking anything away from these performances, every actor honored in the movies mentioned above is gifted beyond belief and has done their role more than extraordinary justice. But it’s the type of roles that seem to rise to the surface that upsets me. (Also, this is not an exhaustive list, I know there are other roles that just barely buck the trend, but still.) The change happens when casting behind and in front of the screen is more sensitive… and color blind.
Samantha Bee did that. She’s the first late night talk show host who’s also a woman – in a long time, and she used a color blind casting system and ended up with the most diverse team on television: A writing staff evenly divided between men and women, 25% of whom are people of color. And those who think her choices are forced and unnecessary should 1. Go see the first episode of Full Frontal and then 2. Talk To My Hand.
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Nee
February 15, 2016
Everyone be quiet.
Race expert Ms olemisstarana is in da house.
Shhhh everyone already on race because us all are non-blacks but its ok for Ms O to speak because she has the precious “african american source” and therefore exclusive copy rights to the perspective and blessed rights to a write up on it, he-haw.
Dunno why but reading the coterie reminds me of this dude charzer, Enjoy it.
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olemisstarana
February 15, 2016
@Nee:https://media.giphy.com/media/yoJC2KkAiOFi4eHjji/giphy.gif
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Anu Warrier
February 15, 2016
olemisstarana, I agree with you. I think, in the second case where MLK was played by a white man, cultural appropriation was more of an issue than race. And I can understand that. I’ve become slightly more attuned to this issue with questions of race and colour at the forefront once again.
If I can dig up the very well-received academic paper that dealt with issues of race, I will post it here. It said, summarily, that the same résumé sent out under different names – White/Black/First Peoples/South Asian/Asian elicited different responses within a select group of companies/academia/etc.
The minorities (mainly Black and Latinos) have reported – in validated cases – of résumés being rejected when sent under their own names; the same résumés sent under a ‘white’ name result in them being called for an interview; in many cases, getting past the phone interviews. The interesting thing is that, once they past that barrier, their qualifications are enough to either get them the job or not (depending on whether they are a good fit). At that point, their rejection accounts for somewhat the same percentage as that of the Whites. Which, again, no one is complaining about or against.
But the initial bias? Is heavily slanted against them. Independent reporters have found – in a blind study – résumés which have overtly ‘Black’ or ‘Latino’ names are often rejected at the outset.
So, all other things being equal, even getting a foot inside the door is an uphill struggle for them than it is for the more privileged class. And this, is decades after the Civil Rights Movement.
The more things change, the more they remain the same. 😦
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Punee
February 15, 2016
Reviewing a movie after its been made = telling the producers who to cast before its made.
Right.
And you need to know African-American people to comment on their plight but the experience and opinions of an actual lower-caste/tribal person is immaterial because it doesn’t pander to your sentiments.
Cool 🙂 I do know a couple of African-Americans- though they are from the Thomas Sowell/Dambisa Moyo school of thought. I am assuming that being from the opposite end of the spectrum makes their opinion pretty invalid too- huh….?
What fun!
PS: Kids do love me as do I them, but you will need to visit me outside this pretty cocoon of the internet to make sure 🙂
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olemisstarana
February 15, 2016
@Nee:
OMG, I almost missed that… did you just compare me to RRS? ROFL.
Please don’t misconstrue this as an attempt to acknowledge your existence or engage you in conversation… but, do you really have something to contribute to this thread, or did you lose your binkie?
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olemisstarana
February 15, 2016
@Punee: Wow… we aren’t hampered by the lack reading comprehension skills at all, eh?
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Anu Warrier
February 15, 2016
And you need to know African-American people to comment on their plight but the experience and opinions of an actual lower-caste/tribal person is immaterial because it doesn’t pander to your sentiments
You’re still conflating race with caste, aren’t you? And your idea of ‘commenting on their plight’ is to say that they need to make the best of things?
Gosh, I’ve really seen a lot of deliberately obtuse people, but you take the cake, the bakery and the icing. Because you take off on tangents, not really responding to what is actually being said, and then play the ingénue very well. Bravo!
I will leave you to your insulated world where art, money, etc., are above questioning. Marie Anoinette’s Let them eat cake seems almost benevolent compared to your Let them bake their own cake, but then, poor Marie Antoinette never said that, did she?
I live in the real world, a flawed world, where issues of race need to be discussed and debated, and discrimination needs to be called out for what it is – a blot on humanity. And I will call out attitudes like yours, even if you pretend at the end of being called out that you didn’t say what you did, or prattle infuriatingly about how innocent and childlike you are. Bless your heart!
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sanjana
February 15, 2016
I am really pained to note that my favourite actress Rani mukherjee is called dark, short and fat, She has such beautiful expressive eyes and a very warm smile besides talent.
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Vanya
February 15, 2016
@Anu, is this the one you’re referring to?
Bertrand, Marianne, and Sendhil Mullainathan. Are Emily and Greg more employable than Lakisha and Jamal? A field experiment on labor market discrimination. No. w9873. National Bureau of Economic Research, 2003.
Click to access w9873.pdf
(On a tangent, similar biases hold for women too, at least in academia —
http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474.short.
Wonder how big a hit a black woman takes on hiring and salary.)
@olemisstarana: Trevor Noah talked about diversity in hiring in an interview with PCHH recently, where he said he had difficulty in finding African American writers/comedians to join the daily show because not many were applying. It was only when he looked into it more deeply that he realized that this section of the community wasn’t even receiving word about the job openings because they weren’t in the network to begin with.
http://www.npr.org/sections/monkeysee/2015/11/27/457375043/pop-culture-happy-hour-a-conversation-with-trevor-noah
Also, I think I love you. Are you on the east coast, and can I be your friend? (Really, it didn’t sound that creepy when I said it in my head.)
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apex
February 15, 2016
“Also, I think I love you. Are you on the east coast, and can I be your friend? (Really, it didn’t sound that creepy when I said it in my head.”
Haha PURE innocent stuff 🙂
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olemisstarana
February 15, 2016
@Vanya: Yes! If you are ever in Pittsburgh, pierogies and super hipster microbrew on me! 😀 (I’m serious)
Also, I remember that study. smh. Thanks for the Trevor Noah article. It’s a shame, and I will always cheer on employers like Bee who say, and I quote approximately – You just have to go out and hire people. This puts the onus on the employer, which is a good thing. You want a quality show, you want to reach every nook and cranny of your audience with your show, then you should make the effort to hire the right people. Do you remember the dust up with Jezebel accusing Jon Stewart (!!!) of not being diverse enough in his writing room? The response was a little surprised and a shade defensive, but things turned around… when you speak truth to power, great things happen.
I think BR should come to the east coast for a film fest and we should all gather the expat BRangians and have a blast. I really enjoyed the last meetup – was wonderful to put faces to names.
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olemisstarana
February 15, 2016
@Sanjana – I don’t necessarily view short, dark and fat as pejorative terms. (Though considering the source, I doubt these were compliments).
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Anu Warrier
February 15, 2016
@Sanjana – I concur with you about Rani Mukherjee. One of my favourite actresses.
@olemisstarana – Because I can’t ‘like’ your posts or ‘upvote’ (is that really a word?) them – here’s my full-fledged ‘like very much indeed’ acknowledgement in writing (typing?)
@Vanya – yes, that one, thanks! There was also an article in the Atlantic Monthly, if I remember right. Thanks for the other paper on academic biases. It’s chilling, but true.
Laughing out loud at your parenthesis to olemisstarana. 🙂 I admire her posts as well.
Whereabouts in the east coast are you? (If you don’t mind saying.)
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Nee
February 15, 2016
Berlinade sounds like lemonade…no?
lol
Anyhow here is a trailer and love the dialogue towards the end. Its in theaters now. Go watch and make it a hit!
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Nee
February 15, 2016
The numbers indicate that, whereas the film industry most certainly fails to represent America’s diversity, the whitewashing occurs not behind the closed doors of the Academy, but in drama schools (shown in the SAG membership) and casting offices. For most of the past 15 years, the Academy has largely judged what has been put in front of them: minority actors land 15% of top roles, 15% of nominations and 17% of wins. Once up for top roles, black actors do well, converting 9% of top roles into 10% of best-actor nominations and 15% of the coveted golden statuettes, a bit above their share of the general population.
The view behind the scenes is perhaps more revealing. Blacks really are much more under-represented in the director’s chair, where they account for 6% of directors of the top 600 films, according to the Annenberg study. Black women are nearly nonexistent there (two of the 600, Ms DuVernay being one). These are the numbers that critics of Hollywood should be most concerned about, along with the dearth of top roles for Hispanic and Asian actors. Best Actor nominations and wins—in which black actors have done decently, 2015 and 2016 excepted—seem to be the wrong target.
If consumers want their films to reflect the society in which they live—as they do their parliaments and executive boards—it is these areas that must see improvement. And film-goers may have more power to provoke that change than they realise. Hispanic Americans buy 25% of the nation’s cinema tickets. If they, like the actors tweeting with the #OscarsSoWhite, are sick of a whitewashed Hollywood, then Hollywood would be wise to listen.
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Nee
February 15, 2016
Whoopi Goldberg: “Black Movies Not Being Made”
“”I make movies for a living. Let me tell you what the problem is. It’s not that the people doing the nominating are too white. They’re not looking at a movie and saying ‘That’s very white.’ ‘I’m not going to nominate that black movie’ … The problem is, people who can help to make movies that have blacks and Latinos and women and all that, that money doesn’t come to you because the idea is that there’s no place for black movies,” Goldberg said in an exchange with guest panelist Sunny Hostin that grew increasingly heated. “If there’s more than two black people in a movie, I’m telling you…. There has never been, in the history of movies, a plethora of black movies made because people believe we don’t want to see movies with black people in them. So until you start making movies like The Avengers where you see more than 70 white folks saving the Earth. And I am mad about this, you know why, because I would like to be one of those people saving the Earth, but they’re not coming to me.”
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Vanya
February 16, 2016
@olemisstarana: You’re on. And I see your hipster microbrew and raise you a home brew (husband brews, and hopefully won’t notice a bottle or 10 missing). @Anu: I’m just outside DC. Judging by your query, I’m guessing you’re around here too? I definitely smell a meetup — BR Fan Club: East Coast Division! +1000 for the suggestion to get BR to join us for a film fest.
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Shalini
February 16, 2016
Word on short, dark and fat not being pejoratives.
Huge thanks to all who restored this thread to a substantive discussion.
“I think BR should come to the east coast for a film fest and we should all gather the expat BRangians and have a blast.”
Should BR ever visit the east coast of the US, he should be taken on a tour of museums. I hear he really goes for that sort of thing. 🙂
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Ram Murali
February 16, 2016
Hello all – If you ever have a meetup for a “BR Fan Club: US East Coast Division” count me in, please! I live close to Philly.
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Anu Warrier
February 16, 2016
Vanya, in Mass. So if you come down this way…
And seconding the East Coast meet up! Doesn’t NY have any film festivals that you would consider honouring with your presence, BR? 🙂
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Aniruddha Chagall
February 16, 2016
APEX… Do you get some strange thrills from being so sleazy? When your overtures are welcomed, it’s a different issue, but this constant double meaning, juvenile text speak and wink wink bullshit is just nasty. Get it together, or keep on commenting. Free speech and all that. Just know that free speech does not make you immune to someone else calling you out on it.
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R
February 16, 2016
Any readers/commentors in and around Doha?
இங்கேயும் ஒரு Film Festival இருக்குப்பா….😀
எவ்ளோ like / dislike விழுமோ தெரியல?😄
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Ram Murali
February 16, 2016
எவ்ளோ like / dislike விழுமோ தெரியல?😄
R – that was hilarious! At this rate, someone will open a massage / chiropractic / acupuncture center just for those that have pain in their fingers by continually doing thumbs downs for the comments in this blog! The ones that have me most bemused are the sheer # of thumbs downs for the seemingly innocuous comments. Someone felt the need to give me a “thumbs down” for stating that I live in Philly. Avangaluku east coast pidikaadhu-nu nenachukaren!
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Shalini
February 16, 2016
“Doesn’t NY have any film festivals that you would consider honouring with your presence, BR? ”
Ah, but does a BRumble require BR’s physical presence? Discuss. 😀
Waves to Vanya. “Hi, Neighbor.” Which side of the Potomac are you?
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olemisstarana
February 16, 2016
So BR, kya khayaal hai? Red carpet and band baaja at JFK in anticipation of your much awaited east coast tour? 😀
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apex
February 16, 2016
@ Anuradha Chagall —
The other day an ANON female threw words like “cu*t” and made indecent comments (and some strange wierd thoughts …)
Where were u?
I was taken aback by her obscenity but was quiet 🙂
Anyhow
“keep on commenting.” –oh thanx 4 proving me the luxury
” free speech does not make you immune to someone else calling you out on it.”
I’m sure– bring it on..
Were TRRREEMMMBBBLLIINGGGG 🙂
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Vanya
February 17, 2016
@Shalini — Hi back! I’m on the Maryland side. You?
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Enna koduka sir pera
February 17, 2016
Count me in too for the East Coast meetup. I am a new fan of BR’s writing, still an amateur in watching/discussing movies, but passionate about discussions on politics/society, although I have been a watcher from the sides in this debate 🙂
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aniruddhachagall
February 17, 2016
Can you show me the exact place where anon called you what you claim she/he did?
Is English not your first language and/or are you dyslexic, because that would explain a lot.
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olemisstarana
February 17, 2016
@Ram Murali – Like venkatesh said in another thread, there’s something super hinkey going on with the likes/dislikes in these threads.
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An Jo
February 17, 2016
I am very, very close to the Potamac.. so close that i am just a hair’s breadth short of drowning in the Potomac.. and rising fully bathed to welcome Sri Srinivasan, a la Uttama Villain..
Let’s meet up.. at a bar of course..
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brangan
February 17, 2016
OMG. All these varied people – spanning the spectrum from Gulzar haters to Gulzar lovers — wanting to meet up…
My small contribution to world peace (wipes tear)
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Rahini David
February 17, 2016
Are dark, short and fat prejoratives?
On Euphemisms and the need for them
1) For a time, I used to argue that the word Homemaker was not necessary. My own belief was (and is) that there is absolutely nothing wrong with good old word – “housewife”. “Do we invent politer versions of Doctor or Manager or Scientist every once in a while?”, I used to ask. I have resigned myself to this homemaker word as it is now the accepted term. If I don’t I would be lectured on how much work these women do and how I, as a salaried person, do not see it. Not worth the effort. If it pleases people that I use this word, then I am fine with it.
2) Most of us Indians have felt confused at the word “Negro” being considered impolite and offensive and the word “Black” being considered politer. It seems at first glance that it is better to use a term that does not bring obvious reference to skin color. But have we all not accepted that “Negro”, a word that was very often used in Indian circles in the 80s is now a banned word?
3) Euphemisms exist for a reason. We may think of ourselves as bigger than the euphemism, but it is better weigh in some good sense before we use terms that is currently considered impolite. In that sense, I believe that dark, short, fat and old can be included in this list. The person using it may think fair=dark. Is the person who it refers to agree?
4) I am not very happy with the slippery nature of the euphmisms either. First “Fat” was off limits, then “Chubby”, then “Rotund”, then “Rubenesque” and God knows what else. You have to give people some words without breaking into war each time. This much I agree. But I can not pretend that “Also short, dark and fat” is a polite thing to say.
5) Would we tell this to RaniM’s face? Can you do this without immediately explaining yourself. Imagine saying “Tall, Fair and Thin” to Anushka Sharma, would you have to explain yourself immediately afterwards?
Changing standard of Beauty
1) About 49% of Indian women are of Above-Average height. Right? Think about the Average height. Is RaniM short?
2) Same rule. Is RaniM Dark? Very difficult to measure this.
3) Try again. Is RaniM Fat?
4) Somehow people who come close to the ideal beauty are more heavily critised for their looks rather than the really below average ones. It is like teachers breathing down the students who get 95% marks in Mathmatics. You can get 80% and face less fire. Deepika’s muscular body seems to be a case in point. I see a graceful long-legged woman with an angelic face. Deepika being used as a exhibit E in this discussion had me had me scratching my head.
5) Basically I agree with Punee’s point that the industry was not as beautist as it is now. I don’t just see how SRK gets to be Exhibit A.
6) Early 90s brought about many dark pretty heroines in Tamil Nadu. Roja, Ranjitha and Kasturi were a few. Roja had a better career than is usually expected of a darkskinned girl. The current producers can introduce a few like them and see without sticking to fairer ones all the time.
Why are some physical attributes rated higher than others?
1) I am taking this from an old comment of mine. I believe that we give a +4.8 or a -2.3 for certain factors pretty unconsiously. This is apparent in the way we go out of the way to congratulate (or atleast secretly admire) those who have recently lost weight, and discreetly avoid the topic when someone has gained a couple of kilos. IMO, Kushboo aces over Gautami or Amala (as they look now in their mid 40s). That is because of several small and non-quatifiable factors. I admit that I have given Kushboo a -2 for body weight and Gautami and Amala a +2.5. Kushboo still aces with a wide margin(IMO). This + and – become because of and inspite of in our everyday language.
Kushboo is hot inspite of her weight. George Clooney is sexy inspite of his age, Surya is handsome inspite of his height, Satyaraj looks macho because of his height, Sibiraj is not as charismatic as his father inspite of his height, so on and so forth. What I do not believe is that when it comes to skin tone we should keep a respectful silence and never ever say in spite of. Ambika and Radha ruled the roost together. Ambika was fairer, Radha had better features. I do not think it is wrong to say that using words like “Though Ambika was fairer …” or “In spite of Ambika having fairer skin …”.
2) Also, I believe that the + and – weightage for men and women are quite different. For women, the skin tone is given higher weightage than height. It is the other way around for men. And when I say that, I do not say that short men cannot be sexy. How can I say that when Surya is around? They can be very sexy, but in spite of their height.
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apex
February 17, 2016
@ the blogging world /followers to this blog
THANKS for UR unanimous support and UNPRECENDENTED upvotes.. above
Much appreciated… The points been made ..
And I think we can kool down now and let the MISCHIEF MAKER(S) carry on & get something to do in their lives
LETS LET THAT PERSON(s) HAVE A FIELD DAY DOWNVOTING THIS POST REPEATEDLY
But not before a VICTORY LAP
GALLOPPING triumphantly ….. with mastani in one arm and Kashibai in the other (& another in the front & back) 🙂
bajire baji ri…..
@ Punee: hope u r good : enjoy yourselves,,, this blogs missin ya
@ tarana & Anu u write v well: thanx
(keep it up…. Tarana wink wink)
@ anuradha Chagall / rahini : go cope with it 🙂
@ rahini: meh
Ps: Hiya shalini aunty….say my hello to the cute kid.. (& sorry couldn’t resist saying, u look awsum) 😉
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B
February 17, 2016
Is someone so jobless that they are deleting cookies and upvoting/ downvoting comments on a movie review blog? Slow clap!
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Madan
February 17, 2016
I actually don’t completely understand the obsession with fair skin. Some of the most attractive women I have met/seen were dark skinned. And I am not saying this to sound politically correct, not in the least. As a male, I know what turns me on. 😉 So either the hotness of some dark shades isn’t fully captured in 2D images (though why should that be) or it is just that popular culture is stuck with age old, tired cliches. This loosely ties in with the topic of the thread. Filmmakers should just get out there and explore more possibilities. Of course, there are those who do that but why is it that the mainstream ones invariably play it painfully by the book. Just try a different tone, a different physiognomy. Reams are written about the virtue of risk taking in art. Is it too much to ask for a little risk in re-imagining the ideal bombshell?
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olemisstarana
February 17, 2016
That’s disarmingly honest, Rahini. And curiously interesting… I seem to come at it with a “feeling” and you are delightfully analytical (even about how you”feel” 🙂 )…
Here’s how I look at it. The word Negro has fallen slowly out of parlance because of the manner in which it has been used – I think this happened with the world “Nigger” (I had to take deep breath before typing that one out) as well. I try to be sensitive to what I am being told (again, who gets to decide here is another huge question) is preferable to those who are being referred to by the phrase in question. I generally use African American, or black as terms, but the former is a hobbled term because I would have to refer to Charlize Theron as African American, and I wouldn’t be able to refer to those who stayed back in Africa as African American either. Black throws me off sometimes, but I try to be sensitive when I use the word. Black people seems to work, the blacks doesn’t, the coloreds definitely not, people of color (again so awkward) yes. This is an area in flux, so I don’t know how I’ll be using these words in 10 years, and I am okay with that.
On a semi-related aside, the husband works in a lab that designs wheelchairs and wheelchair related protocols for populations with disabilities, and I’ve learned so much from him – it’s people with disabilities, not the disabled… and anyone with an ounce of self awareness can understand why.
I – personally – do not think fat, dark and short are pejoratives. I also think that attractiveness is an incredibly subjective meter. However, when someone uses words like fat, dark or short in a manner so as to reduce thee validity of someone’s argument or their contribution to a conversation, or their work, that’s when my hackles rise up. It happens all the time… on twitter, tumblr, Reddit (with which I have a love-hatehateHATE-love relationship), irl. So it helps to take the sting out when someone uses these words, and I go mentally (and sometimes verbally), “So fucking what?”
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Nee
February 17, 2016
are oscars racist? Answered by African-American:
—–x—-x—-x—-x
“More than likely. Everything’s racist in this country..I am more concerned about the flint issue with lead contaminated water, the police shooting..there is more to be concerned about than who’s the best actor to me. I am still baffled about how elected officials in flint deliberately sent contaminated lead water to so many people and then fine them for not paying! Oscars was created by whites in this country and they are going to control who wins or not. Children being shot by police, going hungry, addicted to drugs etc, this is my concern. Lets feed the hungry, house the homeless, get clean water and clean air to everyone, make health care affordable to everyone before complaining about oscars. These guys live in million dollar homes, make million dollars.”
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Nee
February 17, 2016
BR, I can imagine this song.. just substitute Hema for several old, haggle-toothed witches chasing ya. fair is foul, foul is fair.
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Nee
February 17, 2016
“Euphemisms exist for a reason. We may think of ourselves as bigger than the euphemism, but it is better weigh in some good sense before we use terms that is currently considered impolite. In that sense, I believe that dark, short, fat and old can be included in this list….. Is the person who it refers to agree?”
Euphemism exist for a reason but decide if it is just garden variety “impolite”. There is euphemism Dog Whistle Politics, pertaining to race.
On dog whistle politics:
” Dog whistle appeals generate middle-class enthusiasm for political candidates who promise to crack down on crime, curb undocumented immigration, and protect the heartland against Islamic infiltration, but ultimately vote to slash taxes for the rich, give corporations regulatory control over industry and financial markets, and aggressively curtail social services.
Campaigning for president in 1980, Ronald Reagan told stories of Cadillac-driving “welfare queens” and “strapping young bucks” buying T-bone steaks with food stamps. In trumpeting these tales of welfare run amok, Reagan never needed to mention race, because he was blowing a dog whistle: sending a message about racial minorities inaudible on one level, but clearly heard on another.”
This is how and why “political elites succeed, time and again, in persuading poor and working class whites to support regressive policies that are a boon for corporations but actually harm them and wreck the middle class”
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Shalini
February 17, 2016
@Vanya – In Virginia. Should definitely meet.
@BR – So, you’re in then. Pick ya up at tinakon ke nasheman next to the baarish ka makaan. Carry a sheeshe ka poda for identification purposes.
@Rahini – I’ve been hoping all thread that you’d comment. Some quick thoughts:
Don’t know if “homemaker” was coined for euphemistic purposes or to provide a gender-neutral term for stay-at-home spouses (% may be very low but househusbands do exist). Sort of the way we say the generic “police officer” instead of “policeman/woman” nowadays.
On “short”, we do have “petite” to describe women 5ft 4in and under, but I don’t know that “short” is considered impolite? At least not when applied to women. You’re right though that we’re less charitable about height when it comes to men.
As for “dark”, we have a fundamental disagreement. I don’t consider any skin color/tone to be an asset or flaw. And while I don’t quibble with anyone’s right to their personal aesthetic preferences, I unequivocally reject the notion that a particular skin color is inherently, universally, or objectively superior/inferior.
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aniruddhachagall
February 18, 2016
If it’s downvotes, then it’s mischief makers and if its upvotes its supporters? Are you missing a few crayons? I know none of the commentors on this blog, male or female need any white knights rushing to their rescue, but seriously, shut up. Stop this disgusting front back wink wink shit. You remind me of the neighborhood flasher, holding your dick in one hand and a sleazy smile on your face, saying “dekhne ka paise leti hai kya?” Seriously man, you are the slimy gutter-ball specimen of rediff commenter that’s lost its way. You make the internet the spotty shit place that it is. Go clear your cache a million times now and give yourself all the fucking upvotes because everyone knows exactly what you are doing here. Loser.
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Rahini David
February 18, 2016
olemisstarana: Thank you. 😀
Here is another interesting take on Euphemisms.
https://anusrini20.wordpress.com/2016/01/05/1488/
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sanjana
February 18, 2016
I am from Satyamshot. Fortunately till now we dont have upvotes and downvotes which protects us from unwanted people randomely ticking off these votes. Only like button is recently introduced and that button is used with care and love. When we have immature, irresponsible and vindictive people around us, we are left wondering why innocent comments get downvoted without rhyme or reason? Just throw the dirty bathwater keeping the baby safe and secure.
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apex
February 18, 2016
Haha certain “filthy things” just refuse to go away like “anuradhachangall”. They follow u.
What we now know of u is:
U are a rediff commenter –the filthy troll type u mention : well keep @ it —there
Your types are created only when someone hasn’t got the guts to say something in their own name or moniker. God give that person some strength to own up …
U have personal experience: u have been FLASHED & u HAVE FLASHED at unsuspected males/females in your neighbourhood 🙂
And u did NOT get paid in either occasion –THATS probably the cause of (1)
Hmm either wayz, u shouldn’t be roaming free really ..
Finally —
A friendly advice –U need URGENT REHAB & DETOX or both (go BEG 4 the money !)
No further reply to u (or your other monikers) from me ..
2 me U r a PERSONA NON GRATA 🙂
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apex
February 18, 2016
& suffice to say, it’s quite obvious who the ‘regular commenter’ here is who is behind most of this mischief …
In a sly manner, it’s been goin on for a while but now s/he has been caught out
And hence the retaliation in multiple other names and ways
Caught ya 😉
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Rahini David
February 18, 2016
Aniruddha Chagall: You know Apex is going to get bored of all this fun and get himself a better toy soon enough. So it is gonna be alright. 😀
Shalini: I don’t keep up with these Oscar stuff and much less the Hollywood gossip on who is offended and what is not. So I thought I would keep to what I am aware about.
I am not sure about homemaker becoming the in-thing because of it’s gender neutrality. It may well be so. But when I was first aquainted with the word, I felt that a taint that did not exist was being wiped off. It has a lot to do with how my mother herself saw that a taint was being removed if the word “Homemaker” was used rather than “Housewife”. And I used to argue that no one was insulting her until then anyway. 🙂
I know that there will surely be someone disagreeing with the last part of dark=/=fair. Not quibbling to other people’s (majority’s) estimation of beauty is basically what I am getting at. I am not even objecting to the Dark > Fair theory. There was Balu Mahendra who just saw darker women as prettier than the fairer ones and he wasn’t going about the place being politically correct. He did not go about the place being particularly politically incorrect either. He just was attracted to dark women and it showed on the screen.
I don’t particularly like “Dusky”. Dark is quite alright. But I can only say that I am personally fine with being descibed as dark, not that the entire darker population should be.
Let us say that I feel zero difference in short men and tall men. Will the factor of height disappear just because I, Rahini David, do not see the big deal? When in comes to beauty standards the top of the bell curve is what matters.
Also, I have noticed that the stance I am taking is possible only in people like me who have lived life as a dark-skinned person without it being used to insult/tease. If I had lived a life similar to what Priya is describing in the below thread, my stance might have been very different.
https://indianhomemaker.wordpress.com/2016/01/12/judging-someones-looks/
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apex
February 18, 2016
hint hint
This “regular commenter” earlier falsely accused Punee of being “eenup”.
When caught in the act, she changes gears.
a new tactic per day…upvotes downvotes n the stuff
now the same thing hit her back
sly stuff 🙂
ps–this has nothin to do with this “chaggal” person..who is a persona nongrata anyhow..
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Ram Murali
February 18, 2016
Rahini David – very nice points on euphemisms. All these comments brought back memories of my youth, some good, some not so good.
I used to be among the heaviest kids in class when in high school. And you know teenagers. Euphemisms are the last thing on their minds. So, I have heard the gamut from “Ramu, konjam weight potrukiyo” to “Dey Gundoos” to “Idly Murali” (my nickname!). When I was in my teens, I never bothered to take that as a challenge to lose weight and instead would just laugh it off or give it back. But it did affect me, no doubt about that. Later, I shed pretty much all of my extra weight when I was in my 20s. But I must say that I live in a constant fear that if I put on any weight, I am going to be subject to all those kinds of comments yet again…
My cousin (Chithi’s daughter) who’s just 11 is on the heavier side. And, while I joke with my Paati saying that “Un saapadu la thaan edho iruku” I also keep telling my Chithi that while being overweight is not something bad or something to be looked down upon, it is a potential source of insecurity for some people (just speaking from my own experience and some others that I know of) who may find it difficult to deal with comments and jokes at their expense. So, I just keep telling my Chithi to ensure that my cousin’s weight is at a healthy level for various reasons – physical and even psychological. Of course, if my cousin continues to be overweight and is relatively healthy, happy and is not worried about what other people say, that’s good too. I just think that the world can be cruel sometimes…
Any words of advice from anyone in this regard? Again, I am just speaking for myself and please dont take any of the above statements as something that I state as a universal truth or a fact that’s indisputable.
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The Ghost Who Walks
February 18, 2016
I louwed him as Stringer Bell, as Luther, and as Heimdall – but I have to say, it took some suspension of disbelief to see him as a Nordic God
I’m too late to this town hall but as a dedicated fan of everything comics, I just want to put this out there.
Elba-as-Heimdall as an example of race switching is absolutely misguided and dare i say Ignorant. In the Marvel movie verse, Asgrad is in an alien planet and Asgardians are aliens who are confused by Vikings/Nordic people as gods when they their battles with another alien race (frost giants) to earth millennia ago. Since these aliens are shown to be no different physiologically from Earth dwellers, it makes sense that their population is multi-racial.
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aniruddhachagall
February 18, 2016
You – take your conspiracy theories and go shove it. Actually carry on because at least when you blather on about them you aren’t verbally molesting anyone else on here. Get on your donkey backwards and take a million victory laps. You deserve it. And one final gift for you. The last word. You can take that and shove it as well.
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aniruddhachagall
February 18, 2016
@Rahini: I have been reading this blog for nearly 6 years and I am ashamed to say that this is what it takes for me to climb out of my lurker cave. I’m afraid you are right, I might have given this Ape some fuel.
I also want to ask, anyone, is there any mechanism to block a user on here? I enjoy the reviews a lot, and really admire Mr. R’s take on censorship. But if I have to read verbal STD laced diarrhea like this any more, I’ll have to stop before the comments. This would be a pity because then I would miss some really rollicking discussions.
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Madan
February 18, 2016
Rahini: I’d say in the Indian context the word used to describe a woman isn’t even an euphemism. It’s just a flat out insult, which the blog you posted attests to. This is why I cringe when Indians call Americans or Europeans racist. I am not going to presume ALL Indians judge people based on skin tone but unfortunately a lot many do and they don’t even attempt to hide their feelings. This is also why I have asked in the past why our filmmakers only need freedom of expression to dress up women in skimpy clothes and zero in on the midriff. Why can’t they use the freedom to at least attempt to create some unconventional icons like for instance a dark skinned heroine. One hopes Nihalaniji will not find it an insult of Indian culture!
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apex
February 18, 2016
“This is also why I have asked in the past why our filmmakers only need freedom of expression to dress up women in skimpy clothes and zero in on the midriff. Why can’t they use the freedom to at least attempt to create some unconventional icons like for instance a dark skinned heroine. ”
“Is it too much to ask for a little risk in re-imagining the ideal bombshell?”
That’s a brilliant comment madan..
00ps: hope we haven’t got some moral brigade custodian out of his/her ‘lurker cave’ (aka shithole…)
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apex
February 18, 2016
” if I have to read verbal STD laced diarrhea like this any more”
Now look who is talking?
Check this out
“You can take that and shove it as well.”
““dekhne ka paise leti hai kya?”–
SHAMELESS STUFF BY THIS CHAGGAL PERSON !
Them there Talks of ‘exhibitionism” and paying for it !!
And this person is complaining to another Rahini David who v recently posted an objectionable article –don’t remember what but ut was about sharing “dickpics” or “genitalia pics” –maybe someone can find those links
This was OBJECTIONABLE stuff and the ONLY reason she got away with it was bcos her pic is that of a female
Had a guy posted it–he would’ve been lynched
I shared my bewilderment with another person at those articles, I think it was mank.
But I maintained a dignified silence
MY LORD –what does a “verbally molested” guy do in this situation besides staying quiet ?? 🙂
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brangan
February 18, 2016
Okay. I guess everyone’s had the last word. Can we go back to talking about films and issues please?
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apex
February 18, 2016
Thanx B.Ran
I respect B.Ran & his blog and so didn’t want to come down to this Anuradhachaggal level but u have “EARNED” it now..
“And one final gift for you. The last word. ”
Thanx I will take the last word
but I will not let u go without a “parting gift”
The parting gift for u is a DONKEY to take ur injured self home
And hang on–theres an unfinished business
“Takes a sharp instrument”
There u go
U are NEUTERED now
Sorry it will hurt
From now on, u can BARK
but the DONKEY will remain safe
If u EVER show me ur face again, it will be clear
It’s NOT u
But the DONKEY that’s done u
🙂
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brangan
February 18, 2016
Shalini: But only if you promise to drive on umr si lambi roads and into andha-kuan tunnels and past women with scent wafting from their eyes.
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Radhika
February 18, 2016
@olemisstarana
Thank you for those examples. I enjoy Louie and am a big fan of Branagh. And sure, those were cock-a-snooking choices, and good for them. But I don’t see them as examples of how colour-blind casting can be context free. Branagh was working from a fixed script, he could hardly have inserted an explanation about adopted brothers. Louie CK’s choice may well have been to increase the dramatic contrast and he would enjoy the questions raised in the viewer’s heads about the mixed races and deliberately not answer them. That is not a narrative choice that can be used by the mainstream.
But I take your point. I think it was Sally Ride who said that the signal for women having really arrived would not be the existence of women astronauts, but when women astronauts are not singled out for their existence, when it became so commonplace that we wouldn’t bat an eyelid. In much the same vein, if the mainstream movie biz became colour blind in casting, it would indicate a shift in people’s perceptions towards race. But till then, such examples will be in the minority. It’s an old debate, whether Art shapes Society, or vice versa. Even if it is the former, and we say that artists should lead the way, we can mandate that employers not discriminate on colour/gender etc – but how does one mandate this in a creative endeavour? Is that what you advocate? Enforcing diversity by way of some percentage?
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brangan
February 18, 2016
Also, please stop calling me B.Ran.
Makes me feel I’m going to put out a rap record with Puff Daddy.
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olemisstarana
February 18, 2016
Radhika: Oh absolutely, it’s going to be hard to have “true” color blind casting, if ever. What I enjoy is the irreverence, the anti-establishmentarian chutzpah, because I feel part of the movement (being non-white, a minority, a foreigner in the land I am currently making a home in and a woman I am definitely not of the establishment. It doesn’t help that sometimes I get very shouty.)
This reminds me… the color blind casting of the Mahabharata by Peter Brooks – I saw it when I was really young and found it weird. I think it also caught a lot of attention for the wrong reasons. I should rephrase what I was trying to say.
I don’t have a simple formulaic solution for this issue. I hope I didn’t come across as saying that we should have a mandated enforcement of diversity. I can’t imagine that being an appropriate solution. I also cannot claim to know what happens behind the scenes when hiring decisions are made. I just know that I need to hear voices other than white and male ones. When every late night talk show host is male and almost every one is white, we have an issue. When respected actors say that diversity is immaterial behind the camera, and as long as we have some faces of color in front of it that’s enough, we have an issue. I could go on for a while here…
From a relevant WaPo article:
“Minorities make up more than 36 percent of the U.S. population but represented only 10 percent of lead characters in movies and sat in 12 percent of director’s chairs in 2011, the last year for which data is available.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/hollywoods-race-problem-an-insular-industry-struggles-to-change/2014/12/19/d870df04-8625-11e4-9534-f79a23c40e6c_story.html
Again, I do not have a solution, but I recognize the problem. I mentioned Samantha Bee in my earlier comment. Here is her solution. http://www.vulture.com/2016/02/samantha-bee-diversity-just-hire-people.html#
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Nee
February 18, 2016
“Makes me feel I’m going to put out a rap record with Puff Daddy.”
Lol. We will actually have to give you a much cooler name than B.Ran. It would have to be big baddy. baddyRags. Badrags. BigBaddyRock.
Whats rong in puffing a bit with big puff daddy. If you move into million dollar mansion, after your album release, then your fan club can have permanent hangout in your mansion’s basement theater with free food and drinks. 😉
P.S: we can get the witches the cleaning lady roles with their big whiskers and brooms. 😉
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Honest Raj (formerly 'V'enkatesh)
February 18, 2016
I can’t understand most of the comments over here for the past three days. Machine translation?
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Radhika
February 19, 2016
Olemisstaranana – thank you for that – I have a better idea now of your point of view.
I thought of Peter Brook’s Mahabharata too, when this topic came up, but I have seen only excerpts – and while I thought the attempt was laudworthy, the production came across as rather dated and clunky, so i got distracted.
I think – and this may be optimistic – that those creative works that engage in diversity – both on screen and behind the scene – will benefit from those different perspectives, backgrounds, baggage even. And that crosspollination will percolate into a more nuanced work that better represents the complexity of today’s mixed world and is therefore more successful than works that are filtered through predominantly white prisms. My hope is that this success will make diversity in employees desirable for the bottom line, rather than merely a nod of tokenism.
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Rahini David
February 19, 2016
Madan & Shalini: I wrote about this here. I should admit that my stance has changed a lot after reading Priya’s article. Wonderful points by the one and only Madhu there.
Ram Murali: Let us discuss this elsewhere. I will make a post of it and share you the link.
Aniruddha Chagall: Ram Murali posted a sensible thought that maybe we should self-censor more than we are doing. And that maybe our being passionate about a cause or angry with a thought is no excuse for wanton impoliteness. Ignore that decorum and see where we are? I am, of course, accusing each and every person here who felt that their thoughts on rasicm/casteism was so great that it needed to be pushed at the other person pretty sharply with wit and sarcasm and what not.
You, however, are one wonderful, admirable person. You pointed out the pink elephant in the room. You knew that the Emperor had no clothes. And when you could see that I was being singled out, you saw that maybe I needed support, you weren’t too dainty to give me that support.
I would like to contact you. Please give me your details @ https://femininetosh.wordpress.com/about/. (Same invite to ANON)
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Ram Murali
February 19, 2016
Rahini David – Thanks! I look forward to your post.
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Rahini David
February 22, 2016
A huge thanks to Anirudha, Anu Warrier, Olemistarana, Ram Murali and Shalini for your kind words and support.
A special thank you to ThouShallNot for bothering to remember my love for simple, accessible sentamizh and cheering me up with it. So much kindness. 😀
I had not remained without comment for the past 2 days because of any resolution to lay off this blog. I generally do not use my weekends to be active in blogs and that alone is the cause of this delay.
I would, of course, prefer to let the whole thing rest. However, some people who are close to me pointed out that not everyone reads all the threads and thereby I should clarify that the female genitalia pics link was not provided in this blog by me. Someone else did. This is the comment. I am sorry. But I don’t have much of a choice here.
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Anon1
February 22, 2016
Punee made that comment. I wonder what “someone” has to say about that now. If they have the shame to say anything at all…
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An Jo
February 23, 2016
67-yr-old who didn’t get ‘fair’ using Mammootty-endorsed Indulekha soap ‘vindicated’, case settled
http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/67-yr-old-who-didn’t-get-fair-using-mammootty-endorsed-indulekha-soap-‘vindicated’-case
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Anu Warrier
February 24, 2016
A recent report on the Oscar race issue.
https://tinyurl.com/It-s-too-loud
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Nee
February 25, 2016
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Vanya
February 26, 2016
John Oliver’s take on the issue: http://youtu.be/XebG4TO_xss
Considering all the press this has been getting of late, you’d think the point had been made and it’s time to move on, and yet — http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/hollywood-oscars-white-people-poll_us_56cf3a81e4b0bf0dab3115bf.
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apex
February 27, 2016
“I wonder what “someone” has to say about that now.”
My bad – (4 THAT point…)
Talking of this “someone” (I don’t know what that is lol)
was reminded of one of those tracks that work & grow in STAGES & there’s an OPTICAL ILLUSION
For eg
When one saw it first, it was V SUBPAR eg with v poor production values & filmed in an eminently AVERAGE manner.
The film PK itself was jus above average and for all it’s success, box office victory and credentials was essentially a MISSED OPPORTUNITY overall in my opinion.
I feel Raj kumar HIrani came close but could’ve done much better really..
He eventually fell to the MASSY trap (though the earnestness element saved him)
But this song track grew-though do NOT understand and appreciate this musical style..
It essentially uses neither Jazz nor “studio gimmicks” but uses simple street BAND music (employed in local weddings) and very strong vocals & pure talent.
The singing and style emits that EARTHY & FOLKSY smell of Rajasthans traditional bylanes. And comes out as sounding like actual FOLK MUSIC passed on for generations which is a v difficult thing to achieve.
And the lyrics nail this “Alien”
And as in all such MASTERCLASSES it’s difficult to sense Where the COMEDIC ENDS & the MELANCHOLY starts….
(the word “tharki” assumes a new perspective)
Tera naam toh hoga bhaaya re
Jo school mein tha likhwaaya re
Tera koi pata toh hoga, hoga ration card..
apex
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Vidhya
March 7, 2016
Change is hard to accept, isnt it? This comment space, like mainstream Hollywood, was occupied by a civil, sensible, knowledgeable coterie of commenters – who instinctively understood each other, gave due appreciation and affirmation to each other and have thrived here well all this while.
Then there came a few unconventional ideas, off-color (adadey!) sentences, alternative views from the unhinged Blacks of this comment space. They had their valid points (eg.economics, takes a millenium to adopt change, Ranveer vs Ranbir etc) though expressed in a way that’s different from the regulars and more importantly, the approval – no, make that as acknowledgement – of Mr. Baradwaj Rangan (the neutral audience / consumer – shall we say?)
Still, instead of allowing them the time to curate or better still, absorbing them as they are in mainstream – we hear a hue and cry.
Well, the same holds in this Black vs White, OscarIsSoWhite debate. (Now the role I play here is the same as the pro-inclusion, affirmative action commenters here. Now that’s a full circle). Now, do we get that Change is difficult and Change is easier advocated than said? As tough as it is for some to accept Apex and Punee, the Whites too find it difficult to see new colors in their erstwhile unicolor world. The Denzels and Wills are conformists – much like new commenters who stick to the unwritten rules of this realm.
(Comment Inspired by these words mentioned in a comment above, by a famous and much admired commenter “being non-white, a minority, a foreigner in the land I am currently making a home in and a woman I am definitely not of the establishment. It doesn’t help that sometimes I get very shouty.” – well possibly similar words which Apex would be saying – ofcourse with a lot of wink-wink-stuff)
(Mr. Ram Murali – you are a gentleman. Hope you get to read this after all the fracas that has happened – hope you continue maintaining that refinement that you possess)
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P
March 7, 2016
Wow. I come back to this thread after ages, and to a golden comment by Vidhya. I must say, that that is a lot to chew. And my crow is overloaded, so I am gonna sit and chew on it for a while.
Excellent. Truly.
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Nee
March 7, 2016
Vidhya not agreeing with you here. In fact I feel that there are two people, newbies, with huge inner child issues. They incessantly want attention and desperately get it in various “debates” as it is evident.
“destructive behavior in adults bears the impetuous, impulsive quality of childish petulance or narcissistic temper tantrums. Or an infantile neediness, dependency, and dread of abandonment. Or an irresponsibility and angry refusal to be an adult”
This is a movie blog for god’s sake. IT is not some psychotherapist’s office that they desperately need. If you have so many personal problems (people made me feel inferior growing up and I have dark skin or not and bald patches on head that people made fun of and yada yada), you need to take therapy and not expect bunch of strangers to help cure of your problems. We all had ‘enemies’ and bullies growing up, in guise of race/religion/caste/gender and I am not going to start attacking bunch of strangers on net, on a random movie blog, because I am unable to resolve those issues in my adulthood.
If we are hanging out here for ages, we will develop some camaraderie with other commentators. So you want us to attack us on having camaraderie?
Positive affirmations on daily basis might help you, along with therapy.
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