here’s a song where she shines. (Try not to see the video though.) Note how her voice melts around the line “pazhagum koottam vilagi poyi,” though that’s also a function of the exquisite tune, from an era when no one claimed that melody was dead.
Yesterday K Viswanath and today Vani Jayaram…she got 2 of her 3 national awards in his films
She carved her own niche amidst other bigger legends in 70s and 80s. From among south indian playback singers of those times, she had the best ghazal rendering…
Megame Megame song is the best example
Crystal clear even in high pitch was her hallmark
One salute to her late husband who was that man behind every successful women…he made her learn hindustani after they moved to Bombay and helped her to become a playback singer.
Not one of my ‘top’ favourites but goes without saying that she was a very, very accomplished singer. Had many classics with Raja. I am surprised that some of them haven’t come up yet, so here we go:
Not exactly quite a classic, but still a very nice song. Don’t know if it was Sada Master or Chandrashekar who played guitar on this one but that’s a heck of a beautiful tone.
Aside: Sada Master has been uploading videos of himself playing the guitar portions of many songs and it brings out how much of the quintessential Raja sound also derives from his beautiful tone. I wish we would do a much, much, much better job of documenting what these musicians did and do and dislike how they’ve been, inadvertently or not, relegated to dispensable and invisible foot soldiers. Some channels like Adhan or Galatta have started to at least interview them but these interviews are still too broad and don’t get down to enough specifics to quench the thirst of a nerd like me (and I know there are many of us who want those conversations to happen).
Not a huge fan of the song itself beyond the first interlude/stanza which promises a L Subramaniam-esque fusion feat but a good showcase of her skills:
Thanks Honest Raj. Wow! All these years I thought it was Vani. I have to reassess my opinion of Jency now. I don’t get how she was pretty much flawless on this song and yet went nails to a chalkboard on most of the rest, including beautiful numbers like En Vaaniley.
A poignant VJ rendition about the character’s predicament…set to MSV’s music and Jayakanthan’s meditative lines…
“…தருவதனால் பெறுவதனால் உறவு தாம்பத்யம் ஆகாதோ
இவள் தரவில்லை பெறவில்லை, தனி மரமாய் ஆனாளே
சிறு வயதில் செய்த பிழை சிலுவயென சுமக்கின்றாள்
இவள் மறுபடியும் உயிர்ப்பாளோ, மலரெனவே முகிழ்ப்பாளோ…”
Anand Raghavan: Very nice song and beautifully song. Tho, at the end, I’d still rather hear a ghazal in Hindi/Urdu. It’s so much tougher to get the same velvet soft diction of Ghulam Ali or Mehdi Hassan in Tamil because Tamil has a more consonant heavy sound.
My most-treasured songs of the few I’ve had the pleasure of experiencing:
Naa ninna marayalaare
First heard this on a bus and it remained imprinted in my memory mainly because of the chemistry between Vani and Rajkumar
The way they string together words of the sentence, each lending their unique style substantiates this
Andha maanai paarungal azhagu
Vani’s melodious voice taking us through the picturesque sights of Andaman soothens the soul and recreates the scenery when one closes their eyes to absorb
Vasantha Kaala Nadhigalile
Vani’s innocent voice in the major part of the song along with her well-timed laugh makes it endearing to hear, while the sudden shocking change in situation sets the stage for MSV’s ominous notes to strike.
What gave me goosebumps was the resigned yet resolute conviction in Vani’s voice when Rajni and Sridevi meet in an unexpected (for Rajni) alteration of circumstances
Ival Unnai Ninaithapodhu
To hear Vani’s childlike, slightly high-pitched voice infuse the devil-may-care attitude in the song fills me with amazement at how she pulled it off. The tongue-in-cheek laugh towards the end matched the character’s mood marvelously
It is a rare find in movies of today to have an unconventional side character with the kind of impact Rama Prabha’s pickpocket had in 47 Naatkal. Hats off to the singer and actor for essaying it in such a memorable manner
Another major radio-time hit, a gorgeous semi-classical number from MSV – and Vani’s voice piercing through with that fusillade of akaram-s at the beginning is mind-blowing.
It was an 80s film and I think, quite controversial – SAVITHRI. Don’t recall much about it. Anyone old enough here to recall the controversy? 🙂
Yes, BR. I recall Savithri as a remake of a Malayalam movie. It would have probably sunk without a trace but some organizations protested against the movie demanding its ban and the movie then had a decent run of more than 50 days!! The movie also had a Vani solo “Vazhnthal Unnodu” which also was a moderate hit.
You wrote an article sometime back on the 80’s hits of MSV. This song was not there but I had suggested “Mazhai kalam” as an alternative to one of the songs in your list. I also recall you respond very positively to this song from Madi Veettu Ezhai even though you wished Yesudas had sung it instead of TMS (with Vani):
VJ’s solos/duets for MSV like malligai mullai poo pandhal, pongum kadalaosai, vaazhndhaal unnodu, thangathil udaleduthu, idhu dhaan mudhal raathiri, chandira pirai paarthen etc. etc. are a genre in itself..Later she became a stock singer for shankar-ganesh in the 80s mostly with IR only occasionally going to her..meghame meghame, yaaradhu sollamaal and muthu muthu therottam are favourites, though.
RIP. An amazing singer. So many songs, and yet evergreen classics for me remain 7 Swarangulukkul Ethanai Paadal, Nathamenum Kovilile, Malligai Un Mannan Mayangum. An unearthed gem (thanks to B in another post) is Muthamizh Sonthangal from Maadi Veettu Ezhai.
Pity Raja’s Go-To was Janaki at his peak else who knows how many more hits Ms Jayram could have got under his musical baton.
May be is it due to fact that number of genres that Raja straddled and Janaki is almost a female SPB in terms of versatility that suited Raja. An idhu oru Nila kalam , a light classical like Om Namachivaya, light melodies and numerous folk songs etc , she was able to do it all . Just my guess. Madan can throw some light.
Anand Raghavan: Yes, agreed all the way through. SPB and SJ were just the most natural fits in Raja-world. I may not rank SJ right up with SPB in versatility considering SPB did scat, soul-grit and possibly even rapping (?) if it’s him in the first interlude of Iniya Gaanam. But basically, there really wasn’t a particular need for Raja to go to Vaani who didn’t offer something very distinctly different from SJ (unlike Chitra). In the 80s, he could have given just about every song (except Yesu/PJ or Vani for semi-classical numbers) to SPB and SJ and it wouldn’t have mattered.
Good point Madan. Although given the fact that a pretty heavily classical number (for a film song, that is) like Kootathile Kovil Pura from Idhaya Koil could still be delivered by SPB with aplomb meant Raja could have just given everything to the SPB-SJ duo and just be done with it:-)
But that would have made for a pretty monotonous musical landscape (like Malayalam Film Music in the 70s and 80s where it most likely was etched in stone that every song of note needed to be given to “Dass-Ettan” with some left over scraps thrown to the criminally under-utilized P Jayachandran and rising talents like Unni Menon could barely get a foot through the door)
I love SJ to death but some numbers where her voice could get a little shrilly I felt could have greatly benefitted from a more soulful and even rendering from VJ.
Ah yes! Kaalam Maaralam from Vazhkai. What a deceptively simple melody that nevertheless got it’s hooks into you and refused to let go! The Raja Effect! And SPB and VJ knocking it out of the park!
I agree that SJ could get shrill at times but it is not necessarily a problem that he solved by giving the songs to Vani. It would be too much needless technical info if I went down that rabbit hole and besides I want to respect a dead soul but it’s something about how Vani sang some syllables. It was with Chitra that Raja finally had a terrific alternative. And yet, she had to be coaxed to sing the more raunchy numbers and Raja still went with SPB-SJ on Vazhavaikkum. And even today, I don’t think Chitra gets quite there with raunchy or erotic singing. IIRC she sang Kannan Vandhu Paaduginran in the 2011 Chennai show and it was very nice but that song needs more than nice.
Yes, Vaazhavaikkum kadhakukku is a perfect example of what SPB-SJ brought to Raja’s table that no other combo could bring him back then. And is there anyone who would be able to do that even now?
I cannot think of any other singer who complements Raaja as much as S Janaki does. (I would even rate her over SPB though I know very well I am in the minority). So, for me, it is not pity-Raaja-picked-SJanaki-over-others, it is more like thank-god-he-did. From what I hear from S Janaki’s interviews, even Raaja felt his songs were “going waste” when S Janaki wasn’t there to sing them and he had to record with someone else.
Vani, Janaki and Chithra are all great singers on their own merits, they all had their own limitations but the other two were far behind Janaki when it came to emoting through songs. (Of course, all of this in my – very strong -opinon).
I dont know if this song has been mentioned (the Youtube plug ins dont play for me). Amma undhan kai valaiyai aaga maatena from Nijangal. The film released in the early 80s when I was perhaps 2 or 3 yrs old. In my late teens I heard this song for the first time on All India Radio and was instantly moved to tears. I had a tumultuous relationship with my mom all through and yet Vani’s voice conveyed all that I wanted to tell my mom. Ippo ammavum illa Vaniyum illa kaila valai podura pazhakamum illa. The song lingers on…
(@Lakshmi – lovely songs)
“(I would even rate her over SPB though I know very well I am in the minority)” – I kind of hear you. Technically, SPB is a shade better and gave Raja more options. But Raja also had to rein him in from over-ubbifying on some songs and couldn’t on occasion (Devathai Ilam Devi, Vaigariyil, Paadi Parantha Killi come to mind). I am struggling to think of an SPB melancholy solo that has the intensity of Kaatril Endhan Geetham without crossing over into over-emoting. SJ was always on the mark when it came to emoting.
” From what I hear from S Janaki’s interviews, even Raaja felt his songs were “going waste” when S Janaki wasn’t there to sing them and he had to record with someone else.” – This is interesting! Any links or are these from old Kumudam/Vikatan interviews?
Anand Raghavan: There’s definitely no male-female ‘jodi’ that gets up to a Vaazhavaikkum level today. I was listening to it on the way back from work and the two are so much in sync it’s like a dialogue/call-response. When you think of it, the pallavi is nothing great on the surface and only really works because of the groove but SPB-SJ really ‘get’ it and capture that sense of steamy fun with their singing. I think only Kishore-Asha compares all time as a duet-combination with SPB-SJ.
Jailer Vikram: Oh, ‘Amma undhan kai valaiyai” was from a film? I thought it was something MB Sreenivasan did for Doordarshan.
That was a lovely comment. Lyrics have a way of “finding” the right words we are not able to find in real life. Also, because film songs (or other songs) remain at a distance, as disembodied things, we don’t have to deal with the frictions of people — there’s a purity about the idealised emotions songs express, uncorrupted by the realities of real-life human behaviour 🙂
RIP Vani Jayaram, love a lot of her songs…she was really good.
What I want to talk about is SJ. To me, she was as versatile as SPB. Her emoting was quite superb. Yes, I hear the criticism about her shrillness, especially in the latter years, and it is valid. But purely from a singing ability standpoint and emoting, she was par none, and hence was the go-to for Raja. I completely agree with Madan on the raunchiness quotient, though she was equally sublime in countless songs like Sorgame endralum, Poova eduthu oru maalai etc.
And also, it’s no ordinary item song. The arrangements are incredible, so trippy. A very prog, especially Canterbury, flavour but used in a completely different light from that kind of music.
@BR: Thank you. I heard this song first in Vividbharathi Varthaga Oliparappu on AIR some 25 years ago and latest on the 101.4 Rainbow FM. Have never seen its video. Google mentioned it is from this film called Nijangal. Frankly I dont know if it is veritable. If this was something created for Doordarshan, then it would add to the long list of DD exclusive songs (Rayil Sneham, Kaana Kidaikkadha Thangam, Mahabharat, Chandrakanta, Tholaindhu ponavargal and such title songs) that were among my favourites
(a gist if you do not follow the language – once she requested to go quickly to an MSV recording at the same studio till Raaja’s recording was doing orchestra rehearsals, he warned MSV’s won’t end on time (LOL), she went to the recording despite the warning, it got delayed, when she came back she heard Jency was recording the song instead, she and her husband got angry, left without even getting out of the car, refused all further calls for two months, Raaja started stalking her at functions and complained “ipdi panna epdi, paattellaam kettu pogudhu”. She even mimics him! A few more such fights).
@Madan: In Kumudham magazine, Raja had mentioned (in some readers Q&A series) that though Janaki did not have a great voice, she compensated for it with her skillful rendition. (I think, he used the word sumaar to describe her voice – quoting from flailing memory though) I felt he liked Chitra more but since Chitra couldnt get much bhaavam, he kept giving SJ his best songs. Ofcourse he had Swarnalatha too to belt out something like Neeyenge En Anbe & Aasa machan vangi thantha malligappo & Maasi maasam with ease. There’s none like Janaki to sing heroine “elevation” songs: Oho Meham vandhadho, Rojapoo aadi vandhadhu, ivaloru ilanguruvi, Kannan vandhu padugiran, poovarasampoo etc.
I like SPBs urugal though. We rarely got to watch songs back then. Radio & tape recorder were the main sources and he somehow transmitted the visuals effectively. Otoh Devathai ilam devi always gave me goosebumps while hearing, watching it with a pei Karthik & sulakshana – not so much 😁
The original of Devathai Ilam Devi, Kelade Nimageega from the Kannada film “Geetha,” has SPB emoting (or over-emoting) in it:
This is one of two songs Vani Jairam sang for ARR, the other being Sugam Sugam from “Vandicholai Chinraasu.” Even at this later date (2014) her voice was still lovely.
ItsVerySimple: Thanks a lot for the gist as I don’t understand Telugu. But I did get the part where she mimicked him, lol.
Jailer Vikram: I remember that fracas (SJ was very cross with him and expressed a public retort). I don’t remember if he did use the word sumaar but the words were to the effect that she had made the most of relatively limited talent. I agree that he probably liked Chitra’s voice more (and also, he could flaunt her as ‘his’ discovery while SJ was well established by the time he came along) but couldn’t get her to go to all the places SJ did. Swarnalatha had amazing versatility and that’s probably why, with SJ’s voice beginning to decline in the 90s, he used Swarnalatha more and more in those kind of songs (like Jigan Jinakku or Madathile).
That “sumaar” comment about SJ’s voice is why Raja frequently comes across like an asshole (his gargantuan talents not withstanding).
For him, singers were just mere delivery mechanisms for his amazing tunes and complex arrangements.
But just listen to his own flat renditions of “Idhayam Oru Kovil” and “Nanaaga Nanillai Thaaye” in soundtracks where SPB had rendered the same tunes and see just how much a singer brings to a song. But Isai Ngani tends to forget this sometimes as he disappears up his elevated tower of self importance.
Yup, I remember in one interview given during the release of Shamitabh, he was asked how he made a hit song with AB’s singing (duh, interviewer forgot Mere Angane Mein). And he said his songs become hits with any singer singing them. O RLY? Like you said, he seems to regard the singer as a medium to transmit the vocal melody and nothing more but the songs would be diminished, even if still great, without the brilliant embellishments SPB and SJ in particular brought to the table. He knows this too and this was why he used them more often even when he had the option of using KJ or Chitra. But he can’t concede publicly that the singers had a role in elevating his songs as well. I am not sure if Raja ever read Ayn Rand but he would be a big time fanboy if he did. Or a character from her book. Never had the grace of Naushad in acknowledging Rafi or Lata or RD wrt Kishore. SPB was big hearted enough to not let that get in the way of his friendship with Raja.
Swarnalatha could also bring in the melancholy that was missing 8n Chithra. Kuyil paattu, neeyenge en anbe , ennulle with Raja all had the touch of sadness and Porale ponnuthayi , Poongatrile (with unni meno) , Evano oruvan with ARR were absolutely soulful renderings.
Found this superb Shankar – Ganesh song sung by SPB for Vijayan ( I’ve never seen him as a fun dude , so this video song for me, was a shocker!) while I was busy playing some mid 70s to early 80s songs on YouTube for my mom to listen…
Anand Raghavan: Yup, Swarnalatha was overall a lot better at emoting, quite a flamboyant singer. Her voice could get grating on some songs, that was maybe her one slight weakness. Contrary to Raja’s sumaar comment, Janaki did have a great tone that sounded great even when she rendered vocalese (wordless) right from the intro of Annakilli to similar ones in Kaatril Endhan Geetham, Paadu Nilave, Puthum Puthu Kaalai and many others. Actually Raja himself while describing his experience of demo-ing the title track of Annakilli to Panju Arunachalam, mentioned how there was a power cut but Janaki delivered the melody without a mic. That’s what made his left handed compliment sound so off colour.
Raja’s comment about Janaki only diminishes him in stature. S Janaki, for us Malayalis, was equal to Lata, sometimes even better. Though that might seem like blasphemy because I adore Lata. That voice, that range, the emoting, the sheer virtuosity… how can anyone say her voice is ‘sumaar’? Boggles the mind.
And I’m very sorry, I love Ilaiyaraja; I think he is a genius, but he’s also composed many melodies which seemed like he was sleepwalking through the score.
ItsVerySimple: Thanks for posting that interview with Janaki. Her views on old songs were a revelation. Her evergreen Neeli meghalalo is one of my favourites. Average and poor films are lucky to have excellent songs from excellent singers.
Anu Warrier: I don’t really blame him for the sleepwalk melodies because he composed absolutely gargantuan amounts of music, at least three times or more as many films as the most prolific of his predecessors. But yeah, the fact that he finds it so hard not to damn even his closest collaborators with faint praise does diminish his stature in my eyes too. Note, I say stature, as an eminent personality. It doesn’t make him a lesser composer or less talented before somebody jumps on my comment.
Found this in Baburavikumar WordPress article: Due credit to the author – he has translated the answer.
“To a question about which singers have unique voice, he mentions that there are many categories of voices. Some people have beautiful voice that whatever they sing becomes beautiful. He says the voices of Lata Mangeshkar and Mehdi Hassan are the top most in this category. Some people have average voice, but with their talent and skills make the song beautiful to hear. He says, S.Janaki’s voice belongs to this category. He mentions Asha Bhosle’s voice is another category. However, he mentions the following people are the ones with unique voices and no one else has similar voice:
Nat King Cole
Bhanumathi
S.Varalakshmi
Bhavatharini, his daughter
Swarnalatha”
That’s more or less how I remembered it. The thing is Janaki’s VOICE isn’t average anything. Thats evident even when she speaks. I also found his singling out of NKC strange. Not that Nat King Cole wasn’t great but there are surely better examples from the West. How about Tom Jones, Engelbert Humperdinck or Tony Bennett if it’s crooners he wants? If that’s too much white skin, how about Stevie Wonder? Or even the one Raja namedrops all the time – Michael Jackson? As not a huge fan of MJ, I do still think he had an exquisite and unique voice.
Madan, oh, agreed. Not a word against his talent or his immense body of work. That’s never in doubt. It is his stature as such a great composer that diminishes (in my eyes). No (wo)man ever became small because they praised someone. On the contrary. It elevates them because it shows a largeness of heart (and their own self-confidence) to embrace the greatness of others.
And of course, the fact that he has composed so many melodies across languages is the very reason that there are quite a few of his compositions that are mediocre (in comparison to his own work). It’s like S-J in Hindi. Great composers, but man, there are some doozies where you wondered what they were smoking when they composed those songs. In any creative field, creativity can drop at some point, right? I mean, how many wells of inspiration do you draw from?
But, at his good-to-best, Raja’s songs are extraordinary; there’s no argument about that. And I hope I am not misread, either.
Anu Warrier:And of course, the fact that he has composed so many melodies across languages is the very reason that there are quite a few of his compositions that are mediocre (in comparison to his own work). It’s like S-J in Hindi.
This is a great point and it cannot be emphasised enough. It’s not just about Raja or S-J or RDB or Rahman — it’s about everyone working in any creative field. “Being prolific” means little when the work itself doesn’t stand out.
Take this song from MOONAM PAKKAM, from which the big hit was the lovely “Thamarakili paadunnu…”
Is it a bad song? Most definitely not. But it’s also a “template song”, and Raja has composed so many songs with this same beat, with this same melody-progression… Like this…
So it does not stand out, even though it is a “nice song” (give or take a few variations). Similarly, there’s a whole genre of amma/aatha songs that run into the hundreds and that just do nothing especially “creative”. (Though they may be hits.)
So being prolific, IMO, is no measure of an artist unless ALL songs and all BG scores are fabulous. And I come to the second important point you make: “at his good-to-best, Raja’s songs are extraordinary…”
Now, THIS is the real measure. When an artist is in form, what are they capable of? That’s what separates the greats from the also-rans. There was a commenter called Tambi Dude who once said that if you counted the number of truly “great” Raja songs (as opposed to the nice, pleasant ones, or uninspired/bad ones), you would be left with a number far lesser than what’s written seem to suggest.
But that’s the point: even if Raja “only” made, say, 500 truly great cutting-edge songs, that’s still a phenomenal yardstick that needs no further “amplification”. The proof is in the pudding.
That’s the same for all music composers in India, because — unlike in India — they are working under enormous pressure to deliver. At his peak, alongside Raja, T Rajendhar was a damn good composer and his songs were off-the-chart hits. But then, he lost his mojo. Burnout happens to everyone.
Of course, all of these are personal opinions, and let me add one more: I think Raja’s music reached another level when he had a truly inspired lyricist like the early Vairamuthu. Imagine this: you are revolutionising Tamil film music, and you find someone who is revolutionising Tamil film lyrics. What a feeling it must be. Imagine composing a line and finding it fitted with “nee aadai anigalan soodum araigalil roja malligai vaasam”
Of course, many of these songs are lost in time now for the Gen-Z’s or people who call themselves the “GV Prakash generation” or “the Anirudh generation” or whatever — and we may laugh at them from our old-fart vantage points, but that is how the old replaces the new.
And finally, music is so intertwined with the “templates” that are installed in you as you are growing up, that you find it harder to appreciate songs of an older (or newer) “template”. For instance, I stumbled upon this gorgeous Chitragupt song only a few years ago:
I liked it instantly, because:
the “template” of Lata/Manna Dey voices are strongly installed in me
the “template” of Raag Kedar is strongly installed in me
the “template” of that era of sound is strongly installed in me (which may be dismissed by someone who started listening to film music in the Rahman era)
Incidentally, an American friend of mine heard Lata and P Sushila for the first time and said “it sounds like Minnie Mouse”. I was outraged for all of five seconds, but then I had to laugh and concede that that might indeed be the case. They sound perfectly natural to me because that “template” of voice is installed in me, but imagine listening to those “bel canto” style pitches/stylings brand new 🙂
Anyway, thanks for making me write this long, rambling set of thoughts. After a long time, a comment about music made me think, and the result is this morning outpouring, in the midst of a really bad cold/cough 🙂
Anu Warrier: ” It’s like S-J in Hindi. Great composers, but man, there are some doozies where you wondered what they were smoking when they composed those songs. ” – Perfect example, I think you will find maximum template songs in the back catalogue of IR, SJ and LP because they composed so much music in a short time at their peak.
BR: Interesting rumination on template song phenomenon.
IIRC it was KS who made the comment that IR just had 100 great songs and the rest are trash and when we challenged him, he backed out of putting a definite number on it but went into a conspiratorial deep end about a Raja mafia ‘compelling’ producers to accept terrible songs.
I once did a tabulation of IR songs starting from the most unique like Mandram Vandha or Neethane En Ponvasantham and sliding down towards the less unique. I stopped at roughly over 300 songs. Of course, everyone’s ranking is going to be different, but… At the #100 mark, my list has songs like Valayosai, Ayiram Thamarai, Nikkatuma, Paruvame etc. These are still amazing songs! Around the #150 mark I have songs like Vaa Vaa Pakkam Vaa or Vegam Vegam. Around #200, Salaioram, Thaana Vantha Santhaname, etc. At #300 is where we start to get towards moderately templated songs like Vaanam Thodhadha Megam, Keladi En. My list doesn’t even have Oomai Nenjin Osaigal which is still a fine song (in fact no songs from that film other than Oru Killi Uruguthu).
So you could put the number of truly great songs at around 300-350. I am not sure we get up to 500 songs but that depends on whether you rank ‘great’ for a Raja song in the same way you would for other composers. We can excavate and find something interesting he did in all but the dullest of the templated songs but that’s not a very fair standard when applied ‘globally’ for film music because fans of every composer would think that way. Even so, 300-350 great songs is still an extraordinarily large number. You get somewhere around that number if you add up all the Beatles songs from first to last album, including the not so great early ones like Hard Day’s Night. From the West, Frank Zappa is the only one who compares to Raja’s prolificity and then he made very avant garde music.
Speaking of, that brings me to your American friend. There is some curious timing about my renewed disillusionment with the West in 2022-23 (as I was in 2003 when Bush used 9/11 to finish his dad’s war on Iraq). But after conversing with very many ardent musophiles there, I can count on the hands of a finger the ones where were receptive to the very idea of exploring Indian film music. I am talking about ultra open minded ones who could list more genres they listened to than the number of Tamil music directors an average listener here might be aware of.
But they were perhaps too caught up in their own definitions and notions in the end and too comfortable in their silos. If you compared how much I have explored Western music with how much they have of Indian music, I don’t think they’d have gone more than a percent as far as I have. Again, this is a generalization. I know this 60 plus chap who is a piano teacher living in Florida and he was quite receptive to Indian music (among many other kinds of music) and loved Gagan Dhuan Dhuan and really admired how Bombay Jayashree’s singing ‘sounded’ much younger than her years. I actually relayed a question of his to B Prasanna who also graciously answered it to his satisfaction. But his breed are vanishingly few. If I, brought up on Rafi, Kishore and SPB, can appreciate BBK’s gruff voice, Lata or PS should hardly be a giant leap from Julie Andrews. And surely Lata is less Mickey Mouse like than Kate Bush! And that’s coming from a Kate Bush fan, mind.
If the part about Murica/West sounds a bit like Reluctant Fundamentalist, that shouldn’t be a surprise as I love that book and read it again recently. Complete tangent but whether them or Russia, they will never stop fighting bloody wars in the name of some or other imagined ideals to shroud their real agendas. What’s the point of being so ‘civilized’ and ‘advanced’ when they’re so easily persuaded of war as an attractive option.
Music is like food. While Indians try different cuisines and adopt them happily, very few non Indians are into Indian cuisines. At the most they like meat dishes and curries from here. Or an occasional dosa which is rare. This extends to movies too. We are over the top when westerners acknowledge or pay lip service to some of our movies, songs in a condescending manner.
Indians have more appetite for general knowledge, for other things. While most of the westerners are content with their own country, with their own people, with their own things. Frogs in the well?
musical v: To be clear, there are plenty frogs in the well amongst Indians too. I know people who would look so frightened at the thought of listening to Western music you’d think it was poison. Worse, there are people landing up here in Africa and complaining about the food, like lack of sambar rice. I am like, seriously what did you expect to get here, you should be thankful you get Indian food every day, every meal.
But yeah, even within the internet musophile community, I have found ultimately Europeans and Americans prefer pontificating about open mindedness than practicing it.
Good analysis BR, particularly on how the templates instilled in us . I feel QFR like programs where the gems of previous eras are recreated with history and musical details sung by young singers might help in the current/future generations to appreciate it better.
Anytime B or Madan go off on a tangent on music is a good day, in my book!
I don’t care who you are, but you lose me instantly when you slot “average” and “SJ’s voice” in the same topic. Whatever Raja’s smoking, dude’s obviously high. Then again, I will wager Raja only ever gets high on Raja.
But coming back to the man’s musical talent, I agree with B, that when the Man’s in his Zone…he’s damn near untouchable and the Devas and Vidyasagars and even the Shankar Ganeshs are left in his trailing dust, as enormously talented as they themselves are.
And B…interesting you posted that very average song from Ananda Kummi, but it’s also that same film where Raja gave us the infectious “Thamarai Kodi” with SBP’s ebullient singing and it’s Western and Mexican “Mariachi” style arrangements coming together to give us a heady concoction.
And Madan, agree that NKC is a strange choice for a “unique” voice. I love his voice (in fact it’s growing up listening to these crooners and also KJY and SPB that has me lamenting the lack of real baritone voices among today’s singers) but if you say that voice is unique, then that’s a description that would equally fit, say a Bing Crosby or a Frank Sinatra .
Yes, MJ truly had a unique voice but even he styled himself on the great Smoky Robinson.
“To be clear, there are plenty frogs in the well amongst Indians too. I know people who would look so frightened at the thought of listening to Western music you’d think it was poison”
Never mind the East/West divide…among my circle I have Tamil friends who never listen to Hindi Songs and Punjabi mates who don’t listen to any South Indian music.
Their loss.
ARR had a recent concert in KL, and on FB there were plenty of gripes that he sang “too many Hindi songs” when the majority of Indian population in Malaysia are Tamils.
SJ’s voice(not her singing) has always been a contentious topic. IR, is well within his right, to feel that her voice was’nt special but her singing was. I am not sure what the outrage is all about. The fact that when SJ was mostly relegated to being a second-tier singer in the 60s, IR was determined to tap into her talent and made her the busiest lady singer of the 80s in TFM..if that does’nt show what he really thought of SJ, nothing else does..Infact one of my gripes with IR is that he stuck too long with SJ, even in the early-mid 90s at the expense of Chitra/Swarnalatha. But he has mentioned several times that SPB-SJ was probably his favorite pair. And that’s a big compliment, coming from a guy like him who is known for dishing out tough love. (and another thing to note is that SJ, despite the renaissance that she had with IR, has never been very generous with her praise either when it came to IR or his music in her interviews. Contrast that to how SPB is always effusive in his praise )
There are other things about IR that demands more outrage like how he treated lyrics/lyricists later in his career and how he moved about with some of the younger directors in the late 80s/early 90s or how he promoted his daughter at the expense of swaranalatha/sujatha/chitra in the mid to late 90s or how IR’s male singer introductions have been mostly disastrous and so on and on..
BR, thanks for fleshing out my nascent thoughts. You gave voice to what I was feeling.
Madan, I’m slightly luckier than you are; we have many American friends/acquaintances who are entranced by our music. Of course, the fact that they are all musicians might have something to do with it. My son, who’s learning music, keeps sending his teacher clips of Lata, Asha, Janaki, Yesudas, etc. My husband’s guitar teacher is yet another person who’s blown away by the music compositions of Salil, Madan Mohan and RD. But I agree with you – an American friend, who’s heavily into old Hindi films, complains that his wife thinks Lata’s voice sounds like nails on a chalkboard. (This is vintage Lata he’s talking about; I told him that comment was grounds for a divorce. 🙂 )
Funny thing about this is both K Vishwanath and S Janaki both hail from a place close to my native Ponnur 🙂 My close friend is a distant relative of Janaki, so I always thought of her as some sort of chilipi (feisty) great aunt. After hearing Ponmeni Uruguthey (which is just amazing, I’ll be going to this quite some time :), I’m amazed she sang this song, at age 50 . Now I understand why people consider Susheela for her technique and Janaki for her feel. The contrast with Asha (who herself is this very silken voice type with famous cabaret songs) really adds to the halo around her. Though the tamil lyrics seem better than the hindi lyrics (oh babua yeh mahua? Seriously, this was by Gulzar!) The telugu version has better lyrics (also by Janaki):
Anu Warrier: Yes, I think musicians would be better equipped to look past cultural nuances and get right down to the notes, the meat and potatoes. The popular youtuber Doug Helvering (Daily Doug) once shared a Hindustani interpretation of a Western classical composition. But it’s at the fairly-knowledgable-about-music-without-being-a-musician level that I find that ‘we’ are more curious about their music than the other way round.
Aman Basha: There isn’t even daylight technically between PS and SJ. PS was singing in a different era of Tamil music when the emphasis was much more on tonal purity. If you sing in a more flexible, adventurous way, you MAY hit slightly off center notes at times. That actually adds to the charm. It’s not highly desirable to have erotica done in a light that satisfies music teacher-esque requirements of sruthi.
Also, as you note, SJ was 44 when she sang Ponmeni (she was born in 1938). So she actually enjoyed her ‘peak’ with Raja rather late in her career. If you listen to the intro humming in Ninaivo Oru Paravai, you can tell her voice quality was better in the 70s but music directors before Raja didn’t have a vision for her. Sort of what happened with Kishore before RDB.
“SJ’s voice(not her singing) has always been a contentious topic ” – Really? I mean, I would like to hear it explained what is so contentious about her singing. I think it’s much more that pre-Raja composers already had a vision woven around TMS/PBS and PS with LR Eswari for raunchy numbers so they couldn’t find a place to fit SJ. That way, SJ, SPB, KJ all had to wait for Raja to get the songs they are better known by today. That is not a reflection on their skill but on the evolution of styles in Tamil music. As I said above, that would mean Kishore’s voice was not special because composers before RD didn’t use him except for Dev Anand or for himself.
“IR, is well within his right, to feel that her voice was’nt special but her singing was. ” – And we are well within our rights also to call out his fondness for issuing unkind cuts about not those who he didn’t get along but those with whom he collaborated the most. Given the speed at which he worked, nobody without strong natural gifts in singing could have gone on to be his no.1 choice among female singers. He never gave time to singers to get ‘ready’ so if he still thinks they are not so special and need to be coached by him, that’s a reflection on his attitude and not their abilities. He would have probably torn out whatever hair he had post 1984 had he worked with Rafi or Mukesh.
Folks, lobbing Raja-bashing and HCIRFs bombs are easy ways to go down rat holes, so I’ll stay away from those, and request others to stay away from those as well (and personal attacks). I do find the comment by IR about SJ odd, but here is what I’ve been learning (in some work related mindfulness sessions about facts, inferences, assessments etc.)…that you only know 1/3 of the facts…usually there is 2/3rds that is still unknown.
Having said that, I’m not saying that Raja has the greatest character certificate around here, but I’d ask to consider a few things before throwing words like asshole around, which I find hugely disappointing, even though one is not reflecting on his skills. First off, this is an excerpt of an interview, and knowing that Raja is not the greatest communicator, he may have thought about different facets of a voice/tone etc., while making those comparisons, but might have blurted out “sumaar” while meaning something totally innocuous. It’s possible, but we don’t know. SJ is the singer that has sung the max songs for him, it wouldn’t be the case if he didn’t have a measure of respect for what she brought to the table. I’m sure you can find interviews where he is effusive in praise, for singers as well as prior composers and lyricists. One thing I do know is that he is not going to pretend and have a facade – he is going to say what he thinks, unlike many politically correct film industry folks. In that manner, TR is similar as well! 🙂
Now, the other charge about not acknowledging folks or being collaborative etc., think for a minute about his struggle. He came into the industry when he was probably 40 years old…with his background, upbringing etc., consider the struggle he must have gone through, the insults he must have borne, the kicks he must have gotten, as he struggled to get into the industry. One could say, that should perhaps, make him more conducive towards others, and perhaps rightly so. But I feel he feels his success is his own, he built his empire…and feels reluctant to share it. A lot of people, singers, directors, actors, producers and others benefited from him…I’m just trying to understand the 2/3rds that I don’t know before passing judgement on one of India’s greatest talents ever (and I know we are not talking about his music here)…but some modicum of respect is needed here! Karthik Raja has been reflecting on how little time they had with Raja, growing up…given how busy the man was in the 80s. It makes me think – what is this single minded drive that this man must possess to conquer it all, even sacrificing his family life…what goaded him at that time? Sure, his love and skill for music…but at the cost? Was it his struggle that drove him this far? He did not have the benefits of most of our upbringing (I’m generalizing here, apologize)…I’m not passing judgement here, just trying to understand him and 2/3rds that I don’t know.
And Baddy, true to form and I’ve said this before, I don’t really see a point with what you were saying. There is nobody that one can count as prolific, and has only made incredible stuff…in any career! IR is prolific, but has made ordinary music too, so what? What is the point here? There is always a “but”…when it comes to IR. Sorry!
Finally for anyone listening pleasure, I’ve been following Sikkil Gurucharan’s blog (what a singer, and what control!)…where he tries to add context, demystify where possible…but couple of recent ones centered on IR just shows that the man is on a different level, when it comes to understanding the film art form…and how he adds subtext with his music. Not saying there aren’t others, just appreciating what IR brings to the table. Enjoy!
Shankar:but here is what I’ve been learning (in some work related mindfulness sessions about facts, inferences, assessments etc.)…that you only know 1/3 of the facts…usually there is 2/3rds that is still unknown.
But that is not how the internet works, right? People with strong opinions ARE going to argue in strong ways. How can you expect “respect” and “decorum” only in a Vani Jairam thread when there’s none in the other threads – given the various ages and personalities of the commenters?
(Personally, I am not the greatest Vani fan, but like Vijay said, she sang spectacular songs for MSV. But a thread celebrating her has veered off into S Janaki and what not. Again, that is how the Internet works 🙂 )
Heck, forget Raja, even with the people around us, we usually know only the surface and we “judge” them based on that and not by the “2/3rds that is still unknown”.
Surely this cannot come as a surprise in 2023!!! 🙂
PS: As for my “but”, my peeve with Raja’s fans (and the random articles that are written about him) has always been the mythos that has been created around him. His genius lies in his music, and not in his prolificity or the (patently) false claim that until he came along, Tamilians were listening only to Hindi film songs. An additional peeve is that his fans act as though there was no one before him, and no one after him.
My point about “prolificity” is that I seriously do not care if Raja recorded two songs a day or five songs a day. What matters is how many of these songs are (IMO) “good songs”. If he recorded five songs and even one of them is a gem, then that is enough proof of his genius. And this he has done over and over. Genius. Period. The proof is in that pudding, that single gem of a song.
The fact that he made those other four songs is just trivia — like the anecdote that he composed the music of CHINNA THAMBI in half a day or something. As a purely physical feat, this is amazing — but as musicianship, it does not mean much to me (again, IMO) because none of the songs work for me.
(Yes, you can say they were blockbuster hits, but then we can only speak from the POV of our individual tastes, right? What can I say? From 1991, I think the music+BGM of GUNA >>>>>> THALAPATHY. But hey, that’s me 🙂 )
Again, to each their own, but if I don’t talk about (okay, vent about) such things occasionally on my own blog, then where? 🙂
” First off, this is an excerpt of an interview, and knowing that Raja is not the greatest communicator, he may have thought about different facets of a voice/tone etc., while making those comparisons, but might have blurted out “sumaar” while meaning something totally innocuous. It’s possible, but we don’t know.” – This wasn’t an interview. It was an answer to a question in the Ilayarajavai Kelungal series that ran on Kumudam a few years back. So spontaneous combustion as a justification doesn’t really work here. Besides, and I am coming to that, it’s in keeping with his track record…
“SJ is the singer that has sung the max songs for him, it wouldn’t be the case if he didn’t have a measure of respect for what she brought to the table.” – But (a) he did say in the Shamitabh interview that his songs would be hits no matter who sang them so that tells you exactly how much value he attaches to the particular singer who he gave the song to, at least publicly. (b) he has repeatedly blasted the musicians he worked with for their incompetence when it must have simply been hard for them to keep up at his pace.
The difference between you (or other self-styled HCIRFs) and me is I am comfortable acknowledging the caustic side of his nature and expressing my dislike of it, knowing that that’s not going to make the slightest difference to my enjoyment of his music. If you believe in separating art from the artist, as I do, then it shouldn’t matter what people’s opinions are about the person behind the art.
Re prolificity, I am in the middle of your and BR’s views. I think it would be rather extreme to suggest prolificity does not matter AT ALL. But it does not matter in the manner in which it is suggested in IR’s case. That is, it does not matter how FAST he recorded a song or completed a re-recording. But that on so many occasions, he was able to deliver stellar output working at that speed. It’s not just Chinna Thambi that he delivered in record time but Mouna Raagam too. And it’s staggering to think someone could have completed the music of Mouna Raagam in three days working at that speed. And where that ultimately matters is it leaves us with many more great albums and great songs compared to other composers. BECAUSE the speed in his case was only a function of high productivity and not him resorting to shortcuts to get the work done (though this sort of began to happen at last in the early 90s). Unlike BR, I like the Chinna Thambi songs but when the intro of Poothathu Poonthoppu blatantly sounds like a reworking of that of Povoma Oorvolam, it’s irritating for me. And there are many such instances of template rural songs in that 90-93 phase.
Baddy, you are right….this is 2023, and shouldn’t come as a surprise. Maybe I’m old school and this sort of stuff ticks me off, about anyone not just Raja. We can all be arm chair critics without any effort to go beyond the surface, I guess….which then speaks to the society we live in. I see it, and don’t like it one bit. But that’s just me, can’t impose that on anyone…though I consider many contributors on this blog to be very erudite and true connoisseurs, so my disappointment comes through when comments such are thrown around.
Secondly going by your original comment on prolificity, nobody can be considered prolific then if every output has to be fabulous. One might think Sachin or Federer to be prolific…but they have had bad games, blown big matches….do they have to win everything to be considered prolific by your logic? It’s only natural that with a composer this spontaneous, there is bound to be some inane output as well, if the well is not brimming that day, the output is going to be bad….especially since those compositions are not revised and tweaked over months. IMO, that doesn’t make him any less prolific….
And finally, on the aspect of fans and myths, look in the mirror….has that made you biased in a way where you are compelled to add a “but” every time….if so, it’s a pity. The man didn’t pay anyone or goad anyone to write stuff about him….it’s not his fault that his fans resort to such things, though I must point out there are a number of them doing some brilliant analysis of his work. Vent about his fans, why keep pulling him down every time?
PS: You have every right to have your views on anything, I do respect that and am aware of that.
“Maybe I’m old school and this sort of stuff ticks me off, about anyone not just Raja. ” – That’s good to hear because on the HCIRF forum, it was de rigueur to dub ARR a PR creation. Nobody here has questioned IR’s talent.
this actually sounded like a compliment to me not a putdown. That despite SJ’s limitations with her voice(not exactly God’s own voice) she more than made it up with her singing skills. Seems like a frank musical appraisal than a putdown. Has IR ever said Yesudoss’s voice is ‘sumaar” or TMS’s or P susheela’s? (this in spite of the fact that he was’nt in the best of terms with TMS) , so why only about SJ? maybe because he honestly felt that way. I don’t see anything to get outraged about. He maybe could have avoided ‘sumaar'(which sounds blunt) and could have instead said something like “maybe SJ may not have had the greatest of voices, but she more than compensated it with her singing skills”..but then that’s not a big crime in my books. Like I said, I can give you a long list of things to ourage about IR, this would’nt even make it to my Top 10 🙂
MSV on SPB ” SPB’kku swara gnaayaaname kidayaadhu.aana grasping power jaasthi” (translates to “SPB has no knowledge of notes, but his ability to grasp tunes was peerless and he could reproduce exactly what I had in mind”). I wonder if that makes MSV a self-important jerk too for giving SPB such a back-handed compliment..
“MSV on SPB ” SPB’kku swara gnaayaaname kidayaadhu.aana grasping power jaasthi”” – No, this is different because it is well known that SPB was untrained. That’s not even close to saying somebody had limited natural talent. You can play down the implications by saying things like not exactly God’s own voice but the point stands – SJ doesn’t even have an unconventional, harsh voice like Ila Arun. Where does the notion that her voice isn’t that great even come from? And the man saying this let Jency murder many of his exquisite compositions, let’s remember that.
IR’s choice of singers, male or female is another contentious topic..why he chose certain singers to sing his songs like that of Mano/Jency or whoever is best left to him for explanation(could be anything from lack of availability of his main singers to him really liking those voices for some reason). But here, he has given a precise musical appraisal of SJ’s voice and singing. He thinks the world of her singing skills, ability to grasp a tune and all that but does’nt think that her voice was that great. He has’nt said the same about SPB or KJY(atleast not yet) or PS so I give the benefit of doubt to him and take it as HIS take on ONLY SJ’s voice, nothing more. I would be more outraged if IR had said “SJ was just another singer who happened to sing my peerless tunes..it was my tunes which made her” or something along those lines..but here it looks like he was really paying her a compliment. For SJ fans it may seem a little backhanded but I prefer this honesty to empty praises where he simply praised all aspects of a singer sky-high just to sound politically correct or humble. That does’nt mean I may agree with his take, but it’s HIS take at the end of the day. And this is art.
If IR had said Jency’s voice was the greatest thing since sliced bread I would vehemently disagree with him but not get outraged.
Has anybody said that IR is not a very great composer but only a very skilful composer? That may answer that sumar comment. Natural gift and skill cant be separated. Skill can be acquired but it shines brightly only when there is natural gift to complement it. Sumar is an insulting term. Payasam pramadama irrukku versus payasam sumara irukku. It is a put down.
Instead of defending the indefensible, just forgive IR and move on!
musical v, like I said, you can disagree with his take. But getting all outraged about it and questioning his character or calling him names etc is getting a bit overboard IMO..but thats a typical fan reaction so I can understand. Anything short of absolute praise is not acceptable.
They even miss the fact that ‘sumaar’ was only for the voice but not the singing, the grasping power etc..while Swarnalatha may have a great voice IR has never said her ‘singing skills’ was great or on par with SJ or PS..you can make a distinction between the two, believe me.
KJY may have a flawless voice as per consensus opinion but his playback singing, emotiveness and the value he added to exuberant romantic duets has always been a contentious topic amongst serious music fans..I am not sure why this is hard to get.
Don’t deflect. We’re not taking about KJY here but SJ. And the issue isn’t about IR expressing an opinion about XYZ singer but about a singer he worked with more often than anyone else. If it was a question of him communicating poorly and getting misconstrued, he would have clarified it in the next instalment of Ilayarajavai Kelungal. He did not so I have to take it that he meant every word. SJ is NOT a singer of limited talent. Even as a pure musical opinion, it is a controversial thing to suggest but for the composer who gave her so many songs IS an unkind cut.
Nobody asked why he didn’t rate her above Lata or Asha. I don’t for that matter though I do think she went to some places they wouldn’t have. So this is not about asking for nothing less than the highest praise but pointing out that IR was rude. And it’s not the first time so it’s hardly novel to point this out.
As for calling him asshole, he sued one of his closest friends for royalty. Need I say more? I didn’t use that word, KayKay did but pl tell me where’s the lie. I respect his work as a musician, but you cannot demand that people must be respectful even when discussing the bad aspects of public figured. An extreme example but it will help make my point: would you object about Harvey Weinstein being called an asshole?
@Shankar: The reason I mentioned that comment by Raja about Janaki (and then created an isai-puyal here) was because I couldnt shake it off from my memory. Trust me when I say my memory & retention power have become very poor in the last decade or so. But idha marakka mudiyala.
Raja will always be my favourite music director, my playlist will always have his songs at the top. Yet even if he walks past me, I wont be able to muster the courage to say Vanakkam. That’s his vibe. I used to live in the building right behind his house for like 20+ years. Have never caught a glimpse of him outside his high-walled white-o-white bungalow. Thats his personality too. White (no black/grey allowed) & high-walled and I choose not to judge/criticise it. Avaruku mattum exemption (ok, for Kamal too, but that’s for another day, for another digressed thread)
did IR ever say SJ was a sumaar singer? NO. Then whats the issue here..
you can have a great voice but limited dexterity/grasping power. On the other hand you can have a not-so-great voice(in terms of range, shrillness, pleasant timbre etc etc) but can do tremendous things with it because of how you have trained or cultured it..Very few have both..it is his opinion that SJ overcame any limitations of her voice with her emotive ability. I find that to be a perfect musical appraisal, not intended to be a putdown. I may disagree/agree with his take but thats another issue.
and how come he has’nt said that SPb’s or KJY’s voices are sumaar in any instance? or P susheela’s? He has worked a lot with them too. maybe he has some personal beef against SJ? or maybe, just maybe, he really thinks that she made up for her voice with her singing?
(As for IR displaying his assholiness I myself have talked elsewhere about the way a security guard was put on the spot by him in a live concert for stepping in to hand over water bottles. Now thats something you cant argue with, as the evidence exists in plain sight.)
“maybe he has some personal beef against SJ?” – In which case, that would be the subtle putdown we are saying it is, no? I am really confused now about what your objection exactly is. If he has an axe to grind and decides to vent it in a passive-aggressive way, we can’t call it out for some reason? Even if I accept that the comment by itself doesn’t make him an asshole, you do concede he has given enough reasons in the past to earn that sobriquet. So why are we splitting hairs over this? IR said something nasty. Maybe not phenomenally nasty by his standards but given his track record, he gets less benefit of doubt than someone else might and that’s fair.
well it is not MY belief that he has personal beef against SJ and that he said it with malicious intent, but that seems to be what some of the others have assumed here. His reputation taking precedence with some of the folks here. My take is the latter, that “maybe, just maybe, he really thinks that she made up for her voice with her singing”
anyways I found a nice one-minute video for whatever its worth that validates what I exactly thought IR was doing with SJ. Commending her on her singing abilities, while noting her voice may not have been her strong suite.
He clearly says(lossely translated) ‘regardless of how the voice is, its the ability to grasp what the MD wants which is important to me and that’s why I have used her a lot’..as frank an appraisal as you can get. And consistent with what he said in that tamil magazine interview earlier.
This should put to rest that he was’nt exactly trying to be a jerk.
In fact in the 80s ‘keechu kural’ was used in the context of SJ’s voice often. Many referred to her as ‘keechu kural’ janaki(meaning shrill voice). you can even google up keechu kural and janaki, you may get a few dozen hits. So the unanimity in opinion with regard to her emotive abilities was’nt there when it came to her voice.
in fact a better translation of what he said would be ” the fact that I gave her a lot of sings to sing is because of her ability to grasp tunes more than her voice..voice is’nt that important to me, I give more weightage to the ability to intuitively grasp what the MD wants”..
I dont see any malice here, just a precise appraisal.
In fact TMS was downright nasty with IR in his early days and putting IR down even in a public functios and yet IR has always had only good things to say about TMS’s voice, which tells me that he really liked TMS’s voice as a composer..in an interview with SPB he said he considers only TMS’s voice as absolutely masculine and SPB responds “so where does that leave the rest of us” and mimics a lady voice and both of them laugh..its still there in youtube..
கவியரசருக்கும் வாணி ஜெயராம் அவர்களுக்கும் இடையே அற்புதமான (தந்தை-மகள்) பந்தம் இருந்தது. நேற்று, வாணிக்கான தனது அஞ்சலியில், கவியரசர் மகன் அண்ணாதுரை கண்ணதாசன், அவரது யூட்யூப் channel-ல் இதை பற்றி “கண்ணன் கோயில் பறவைக்ககு அஞ்சலி” என்ற தலைப்பில் பதிவு செய்துள்ளார். கவியரசரின் வரிகளுக்கும், MSVயின் இசையமைப்புக்கும், இதோ வாணி ஜெயராம் பாடிய வேறொரு பாடல்…
Outrage onnum illa…just irritation at this arrogant douchebag for his terminal case of condescension for anything that isn’t the brilliant product of his own creation. The fact that he could include Bhavatharini in the list of “unique” voices says it all. Yeah…uniquely mediocre!
And you seem to be bending over backwards to justify and contextualize the “summaar” comment. It is a Tamil word, a language Raja is very fluent in. So as Madan pointed out, he could have communicated that in a better way. But he didn’t, because in his own way it was a validation of that Shamitabh comment Madan mentioned where as far as he’s concerned, any singer would sound good singing HIS compositions. And this justification that “Oh, but you know he did work with SJ a lot so doesn’t that say something” sounds like the same kind of “Tough Love” rationalizing bullshit people say to excuse undemonstrative parenting. “Daddy only ever talked to you to criticize and find fault but you know he walked you to school everyday?? Doesn’t that say something”. Yeah it does. It still says to me, Daddy is a cold jerk.
And yes, I fully understand that you think there’s a whole bunch of other stuff we should be getting “outraged” about Raja. This, to me , is like arguing Raja’s Top 5 songs. YOUR Top 5 isn’t going to be MY Top 5. You think this sumaar comment is one big nothingburger, I think it’s a rude and condescending comment enough to trigger my irritation, but not “outrage”.
Yeah, it’s Raja’s opinion and he’s entitled to that.
KJY may have a flawless voice as per consensus opinion but his playback singing, emotiveness and the value he added to exuberant romantic duets has always been a contentious topic amongst serious music fans..
Even Kamal once said (the discussion was not about film music though) something to the effect that, while KJY is a great singer, he doesn’t belong in the same league as MS.
And vijay…regarding the video you posted, around the 0:38 mark he mentions (and anybody feel free to correct my translation) that he says “voice isn’t important, only the ability to understand the composers intent”. So…sure, you can say, in Raja’s “inimitable roundabout tough love way” he was saying he appreciated SJ’s ability to grasp what his composition was about while not necessarily thinking she had a great voice. Or, one can also, in the context of other statements he has made, interpret that he doesn’t consider a singer a pivotal component for a song’s success, merely a delivery mechanism for his amazing compositions (and by that, I once again reiterate for the 100th time, am NOT knocking the man’s compositions, many many many of which are fucking brilliant)
Although Janaki was an established singer across all South Indian languages, Raja revitalised her career in Tamil (PS and VJ were the default choices for both MSV and SG back then). Three of her four National Awards came under Raja’s baton.
And Shankar….it was my intent not to respond to your comments given that both B and Madan have rebutted your points in a far more articulate and coherent way than I ever could, but since one of the things that got your panties all twisted was Raja being called an asshole, well, you can lay that one entirely on ole’ KayKay’s doorstep. I was the only one who used that word. And you know what? I stand by it.
And yes, of course you’re not going to know a celebrity intimately unless you live with them or are their best friend and confidante or something. So all you have to go on are their words and actions captured on print or film.
In many of his interviews, Raja comes across as arrogant, mean-spirited, ungracious and condescending. Me calling him an “asshole” wasn’t just for the SJ “sumaar” comment but for a string of such behavior. This is a man who after winning the national award for Best Composer made a remark about how ppl shouldn’t call some music directors “composers”. Because….he’s the only true composer??? vijay has already mentioned that infamous clip where he chewed out a poor security guard on stage for bringing his orchestra some water, then turned to the audience and said he didn’t want to keep them waiting because “after all, aren’t they living on his songs?”. He then threw another shitfit when he won the National Award “only” for best Background score and berated the jury for not awarding him for the songs in Thaarai Thappattai as well. Gangai Amaran rightly retorted later that his songs in the film were derivative of some of his earlier compositions. He also put Maragathamani (Keeravani) on the spot in a stage show by asking him to identify ragas in some of his compositions, the better to assert his own knowledge of them. And finally, as Madan pointed out, he sued his best friend and one of the finest singers to have ever breathed life into his many hundred compositions for royalties (rumor has it, he was peeved SPB couldn’t give him dates for a worldwide concert tour he was planning).
So all of the above…text book “Asshole” behavior, no?
I separate the art from the artist.
I will forever cherish what their gifts have given us while retaining the right to chastise them for uncharitable conduct.
And please….let’s not use that hoary old chestnut about how he himself was treated badly and stepped on as he was coming up and that probably made him bitter and cynical…and…boo fucking hoo. Cry me a river. He has ascended to levels untouchable by many of his peers. He’s carved his name on the rock of Indian film Music and will be celebrated and studied for years and years on top of having his music be discovered and appreciated by every new generation. So…a little graciousness isn’t asking for too much, especially since many many many of his peers endured similar hardships to get to where they are today and don’t feel the need to be…sorry…here it comes again…assholes.
When did this Vani Jayram tribute page suddenly became an Ilaiyaraja roast session?
I thought you were all happily sharing some excellent rare songs from the mid 70s to the early 80s for us Gen Z Kids to listen , judging by the sudden rise in the number of comments…
I AM prepared to let this one go now, based on what IR says in the interview. I maintain that the way he worded it in his Ilayaraja Kelungal answer was much harsher, at least more liable to be construed as a subtle dig. But this is a more erudite assessment. As a singer possessed of maybe 1/100th the voice or ‘theramai’ of SJ, I do agree that the ability to interpret a composition, to understand what the composer wants is more important than the voice itself. In a roundabout way, it explains his preference for SJ over Chitra.
I don’t really buy the keechu kural characterization. I am aware of it but it was an uninformed critique. A lot of people who say these kind of things don’t understand that Indian composers have a thing for making female singers sing way too high. You give SJ a song in a more comfortable range like Ooru Sanam and she doesn’t sound shrill. Same with Chitra. She sounds terrific on Maharajanodu but then at that pitch, Unni struggles to make an impact as it’s too low for him. If someone sounds keechu high up, it’s the composer’s responsibility to adjust the key. But our composers have tended to only keep the male singers’ tessitura in mind, not their female counterparts.
Ilaiyaraaja has composed an awareness song for the women helpline number that has lyrics written by Pa.Vijay , sung by Yuvan , shot by Santhosh Sivan and is directed by Kiruthiga Udhayanidhi , this song has a lot of Yuvan influences like the heavy usage of the electric guitar , synthesized voice etc…
“When did this Vani Jayram tribute page suddenly became an Ilaiyaraja roast session?
I thought you were all happily sharing some excellent rare songs from the mid 70s to the early 80s for us Gen Z Kids to listen , judging by the sudden rise in the number of comments…”
Thanks Hari prasad for reminding us of the real purpose of this thread.
Here are some lesser known solos and duets of Vani:
Folks, all I was trying to do was offer a view that there could be more to it, and let’s not jump into judgement…again for a mature discussion. And of course, I do feel that people like him deserve a modicum of respect, and that’s just me. I’ve heard numerous stories of Lata destroying careers, preventing singers from entering the industry, and being haughty with folks, but I’d never ever say Lata was a bitch…but again that’s just me.
KayKay, my intention was never to single you out, I’d never do that. You are a long term contributor of the blog and I enjoy your opinions, and I respect that. Which is why I mentioned this in more generic terms than calling you out. I’m sorry if you felt aggrieved by it.
Madan, this is exact thing I want to avoid…personal attacks, slotting me as a HCIRF….you really know nothing about me, I was just trying to offer a 2/3rd unknown sort of view and engage in a discussion. Can’t we even consider what I said for a discussion? Do I need to be slotted into some club? Again, I’ve always liked your musical interpretations, even have a copy of your book.
And for the SPB issue, there is more to it than you guys probably know. These issues started when he was touring the US…I was working with the organizers. Again I don’t really want to go into it, the man is gone…and let it be. There were others involved that created the whole issue.
I seriously don’t have the energy (nor interest) to wage war here folks…I’ve been a participant here since 2007…I’m not here nowadays as much as you all are…I do read the reviews, and comments but perhaps should keep my views to private conversations with BR, than put it out here. Apologies if I offended anyone, peace out! I sincerely mean it…
Shankar: First things first, thank you for buying and reading my book.
I am sorry if you took what I said as a personal attack; that was not my intention. I remember that when I wrote the Atho Mega Oorvolam RWI, you characterized it as trying to get views by inciting controversy (never mind that most of the controversy was stirred up by offended IR fans). Nevermind that you don’t know me, you don’t know that I was writing almost on a daily basis for cricketcountry back in 2010-11 and passed over an opportunity to write full time on cricket partially because the kind of articles (like silly spoofs) that I was expected to write for clicks didn’t appeal to me and partially because it would have meant following the IPL fulltime (which I have no interest in doing)! Trust me, if I wanted to write for clicks, I could have done a zillion things differently but that didn’t stop you from suggesting what you did, did it? Because you reacted to the part of me that was out in the public.
So…along the same lines, the thing about unknown 2/3rds is not so much opening up a discussion as it is a discussion-ender. Ilayaraja is a public figure and we WILL judge him based off his public statements. If that leads to misconstruing what kind of person he is, we request his handlers to convey that message to him. But, not only in the case of IR but any celebrity, they are judged by their public statements and deeds. Just as you made your conclusions about me based off one article (an article, by the way, which didn’t even say anything particularly negative about IR but instead targeted the kind of boring films and song situations he was working on in the 90s).
Now….coming to why I called you an HCIRF…because the only times I have seen you get argumentative or defensive are indeed when his name comes up. And certainly NOT when HCIRFs pile it on gleefully on Rahman. Now why that is is not for me to say; I can, again, only state what I observed and comment on it. Either you join the ranks of the equal opportunity offended or you don’t take it upon yourself to fight Raja’s battles and his alone.
KayKay I can see why a SJ fan get upset( ‘sumaar’ could have been expressed differently) . I am a big SJ fan too. But all I was trying to do was point out that in THIS particular instance, lets not allow IR’s reputation take precendence and allow it to cloud our judgement. You have to piece all the evidences together-> his consistent praise for SJ’s emotive abilities, his consistent take on why her voice was’nt her strongest suite and his continuous admiration and his reasoning on yet why he used her the most..Its a precise musical appraisal by a MD of his calibre, take it or leave it for whatever its worth. And this comment on voice, he has made ONLY with regard to SJ(amongst his top singers), like a qualifier, which convinced me that he really thought of her that way.
“Or, one can also, in the context of other statements he has made, interpret that he doesn’t consider a singer a pivotal component for a song’s success, merely a delivery mechanism for his amazing compositions ”
I dont know how you would conclude that from the one-minute video I posted. Its a HUGE extrapolation. He may have made such statements in other interviews in a different context but not here. When he considers a singer’s ability to grasp a tune as pivotal how could they be mere delivery mechanisms. Yes, I am aware he has made such a comment in some other interview in the past in a different context. But when asked to evaluate/rate a particular singer, he gives precise answers.
With IR, in an interview, I have noticed that usually if you keep your questions pertinent and focused on just the musical aspects and not let him veer off(difficult task i admit) you usually tend to get precise answers.
and even w.r.t Bhavatharini, as miffed as I am that he decided to dole out songs to her, I feel he really thinks her voice is unique in some way..he did’nt say her voice was ‘great’ but just unique(which could simply mean that her voice was’nt quite like many of the other singers who sang for him, nothing more) .. I would be curious to know why, but it would be difficult to get an answer from him because interviewers usually don’t get to go that far with him..
To get things back on track a bit(and I am guilty of some digression here), here’s a favourite of mine from Unnai naan sandithen, a delectable KJY-VJ duet
Madan, first off, I don’t recall the article you are referring to, but if I did say that you were writing for clicks, then it is wrong on my part. Also, I’d fully agree with you about 90s songs and films he worked on…there is no argument there. His career was dipping and he wasn’t getting interesting projects…and maybe he was getting complacent, bored, well drying up…any of those reasons as well.
Coming to the HCIRF part, it’s not that I’ve had engagement only when his name comes up…I can at least recall spirited discussions on Malayalam films as an example. In any case, I always seek some balance in these discussions, which I sometimes find lacking in the case of Raja. No body seems to even mention that he has helped many a producer/director when they are starting off (P.Vasu, Dennis Joseph etc. come to mind), or many of the other things he has done to help, utmost respect he has publicly shown towards MSV and other legend composers etc. That also should count along with all the other things mentioned, right? Again, just a few instances…so all I seek for a balance in the discussion. I would say this with any personality, not just him.
PS: I’m a huge fan of Rahman, as well, just for the record. The days I would rush off to buy the Magnasound cassettes as soon as they released, during the early 90s, are still vivid in my memory.
“there is no argument there. His career was dipping and he wasn’t getting interesting projects…and maybe he was getting complacent, bored, well drying up…any of those reasons as well.” – Well, then, we agree now whatever may have been the divergences then. So it’s all good.
I don’t necessarily disagree with you on balance but I’d simply say: it’s the internet. We are not presenting academic dissertations on his behaviour. Or anyone else. There are going to be reactions about that one thing. I don’t think people in general deny the favours he has done to producers and directors or indeed that he was absolutely unimpeachable and more than in his conduct towards MSV. If there are people who do deny it, I’d take it up with them.
Also having worked previously under an extremely toxic boss who thought nothing about inflicting monetary harm on employees but who did also show empathy when I least expected it from him, people are complex. So a person CAN be an asshole in some ways and an angel in others. And the two sides don’t cancel out each other; they just exist uneasily, like Jekyll & Hyde. A retired IG in Chennai once told me about how in his interactions with the late Bal Thackeray, he had found him to be an amicable person. Sure, I don’t pretend that that mustn’t have happened. But that doesn’t cancel out all his baying for ‘outsiders” blood from Shivaji Park and calling upon ‘Sainiks’ to beat them up. I don’t think even the worst excesses of Raja would compare to that but they do still exist and cannot be wished away.
Saw a meme about these new gen Ilaiyaraja fans and I instantly got reminded of Baddy’s polambal when people say their favorite Ilayaraaja song is Thendral Vandhu Theendum Bodhu or Kanne Kalaimaane , so shared it here.
the link didnt show up BR. i am assuming you meant the urugudhe song? somewhat on similiar lines as thanimayil yaar ivaL from azhage unnai aaradhikkiren..but a different mood, a bit eerie and all that..
Though the meme hari prasad posted did get a chuckle out of me, and though I would not slot myself as someone who only listens to only the 5 or 10 “major” Ilaiyaraja songs, memes like that also do kinda rub me the wrong way.
Gatekeeping, and deciding how much of a “fan” someone is, is probably the worst thing you can do to someone who’s getting into whatever you like. Unless your enjoyment of said thing is determined of course by the fact that you are “better” for enjoying it, in which case, please carry on.
Also, does anyone have a link to that interview where Raja talks about masculine voices? And as an aside, what is it that makes said voices masculine? Being a baritone? The power/projection? Curious how some of y’all would rate various playback singers on that aspect.
I do have an allergy to never ending odes to Kanne Kalaimane and Thenpandi. And a good deal of it because it’s sorta like celebrating Raja for not being Raja – for not trying to be subversive, not trying to fit in multiple layers that miraculously resolve, not bamboozling you with seemingly a thousand notes per second. Seriously, if people wanted thathva paadal, MSV with Kannadasan’s words did so much better.
I don’t like gatekeeping of fandom indeed. But there are also fans who are very comfortable knowing just these few songs. Now, that’s not a problem as such because there’s no rule that you HAVE to explore so much of the composer’s music. But then, you try to tell them you don’t like Thenpandi so much and they get either outraged or amused, as if the problem is me not knowing my Raja.
On similar lines, I remember way back when as an articled assistant, I had for company a guy who really didn’t listen to much Western music at all. Somebody shared with him a dance remix of Kenny G’s Havana and he played it. I mean, to begin with, it’s Kenny G, adhukku mela remix version vera, suttam. I didn’t say ewww but my face said so and he was like, “You have no taste for music, how can you not appreciate such beautiful music?” I was like, wellll… where do I even begin. See, I don’t have a problem if you want to be a frog in the well and content to be so but you are so welled-in you can’t even acknowledge the possibility of another way of going about it and you think somebody who doesn’t fit into your reality is crazy, snobbish etc etc etc.
I prefer a bit soft, velvety voice than purely manly voice for some situations. P.B.Srinivas, A.M.Raja, SPB, Jesudas, Dr. Rajkumar from the south. Hemant Kumar, Talat, Rafi, Sonu Nigam and others. For romantic songs, manly voice does not suit much imo. For melancholy moods, the the serious voice may suit. TMS, Ghantasala, Mukesh.
It didn’t feel like a gatekeeping post but I think the meme (creator) is asking people to explore more of Ilayaraaja than just listening to those songs repeatedly.
“For romantic songs, manly voice does not suit much imo.” – Mostly, with the notable exception being Kishore. And of course, Kishore wouldn’t fit for delicate romance like Tu Kamsi Ho or Enna Satham for a Tamil equivalent. SPB was phenomenal that way in straddling every slot in film singing – from the aggro on Ilamai Itho Itho to the rustic on Chinna Mani to the delicate.
Like Sid Sriram / Anirudh of today , SPB was present in almost every Tamil movie soundtrack from the mid 70s till the late 90s but unlike them , SPB would do something with his voice that would differentiate itself from the other songs..
He won’t sing the same way for a Rajinikanth song like he would sing a Kamal song , which Sid or Anirudh doesn’t do that often and it results in fatigue or the sameness in the songs they croon.
Kishore Kumar crooned many romantic songs in his inimitable way. I feel ek ladki bheegi bhaagi si is one of his somewhat soft songs. I liked his version of khilte hai gul yahan from Sharmeelee. Rafi was versatile. From softest songs, silly songs to the most sad songs.
For romantic songs, manly voice does not suit much imo.
A theory that simply doesn’t hold up for Western Crooners. Guys with “manly pipes” like Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, Low Rawls, Nat King Cole and that most baritone-est of singers, Barry White, sang some of the most romantic ballads.
Ek Ladki is soft-ish but basically not velvet soft like Rafi could be. That’s ok because they both had different strengths. You couldn’t have had Rafi do Mere Sapno Ki Rani, as simple as that song sounds.
I don’t find Western baritone crooners particularly romantic but I do like Elvis and he was baritone. Baritone is just where the voice sits and the romance comes out of expression which can be either innate or acquired through craft.
Also, Engelbert gets there for me on What I Did For Love. By far my favourite version of the song, the typical theatrical versions of it leave me cold:
@Madan:
I (KS/Kadakumar) didn’t back off, the discussion had veered into the subjectivity of music and possible ways of statistically measuring Ilayaraja’s hit rate to resolve this. All I said was an opinion, that based on my sampling his music over a decade from various sources (cassettes, Sun Music, KTV films, interior townbuses, etc.), only around 100 or so songs of his (out of the many thousands) truly stand out, with the rest being lazy junk fillers. I still stand by that. What exact number did you want, and what use would that have been anyway, given subjectivity and all?
And there is no tinfoil conspiracy. I claimed that given he’s an asshole even in his rancid pruney old age when he’s been long cast aside as a has-been, imagine what a douche he could have been in his prime period when the industry was licking his feet. It was just speculation, made with sufficient disclaimers, that his prolonged success disproportionate to his consistency could have just been due to throwing his weight around and bullying everyone. Not hard to believe given his general nastiness.
I remember both @brangan and RothRocks valiantly defending Ilayaraja’s honor and dismissing me as a know-it-all millenial too immature to appreciate true genius. But now it looks like even @brangan pretty much agrees with my claim that Ilayaraja has an abysmal strike rate!
😀 Monkeys with typewriters printing out Shakespeare and all. 90s ARRahman for the win!
“I (KS/Kadakumar) didn’t back off, the discussion had veered into the subjectivity of music and possible ways of statistically measuring Ilayaraja’s hit rate to resolve this. “” – Er, you did back off when you conceded the number could be substantially higher than 100 and you admitted the 100 was nothing but your own impression after initially trying to present it as a statistically derived number.
“It was just speculation, made with sufficient disclaimers, that his prolonged success disproportionate to his consistency could have just been due to throwing his weight around and bullying everyone.” – There were no ‘sufficient disclaimers’ except in your own head. You just flat out claimed he bullied people into giving assignments even if the music flopped. That is simply not how the industry works. A nepokid (that too, only if an actor) might get away with failing repeatedly but nobody is going to roll over for a composer whose music no longer delivers hits. The proof of this is in fact in how quickly producers and directors moved to viable alternatives once they became available in the form of Rahman, Vidyasagar, Deva etc. Rather, they could hardly wait to find someone else to work with but there simply wasn’t a better option by miles in the 80s. Even after delivering hit after hit in 1993 just like the old days, Raja’s assignments went down steeply in 1994 and never went back to the old run rate again. If somebody else could deliver a hit, they didn’t care anymore for his agmark assurance because he was so unpleasant to work with.
“But now it looks like even @brangan pretty much agrees with my claim that Ilayaraja has an abysmal strike rate!” – No, in fact he pegged the number at 500 great songs which is phenomenal. I am going to actually quote that part word-for-word lest you shamelessly resort to misconstruing his words:
“But that’s the point: even if Raja “only” made, say, 500 truly great cutting-edge songs, that’s still a phenomenal yardstick that needs no further “amplification”. The proof is in the pudding.”
I don’t know what it is about this topic that makes you want to even lie just to win an argument.
Umm, no, there was nothing to back down from. I had repeatedly made it clear that it was my opinion, though that was hardly needed to be repeated considering we’re talking about something subjective like music. Which is why the discussion digressed into what would be a statistically viable way of reliably measuring how many songs could be considered “good”.
100 was my rough estimate based on my sample and personal taste. I don’t know how many times in how many threads I need to stress on this! Besides, that number is less significant than the denominator, which is in several thousands, and that was my original point all along. That even if you’re generous in making it 300 or even 500, the strike rate would still be a paltry 1 in 15 or 20 songs being good. Hardly a worthy rate for someone thalalathukified as a genius, in my opinion. And this is what I was referring to in @brangan’s comment (made mostly in jest!), where he too concedes that even if its 500 songs, … as opposed to the prevailing sentiment in that old thread where you guys were acting like most of Ilayaraja music is great (whether a few great songs can make up for tons of bullshit is a different issue). I mean, whats there to “lie” or be “shameless”, and why do you get so rude and worked up about this? You give your armchair explanations and theories and made-up numbers, just as I did too. The part about bullying too was clearly just a theory I suggested (neither of us are insiders who know for sure).
Anyway, I think we said everything relevant to that issue in that thread itself, and would only be repeating ourselves. If you want to be an annoying lawyer about it, the thread is probably accessible, and you can waste your time and wade into it to prove me wrong if it makes you feel victorious. I only came by to say hi and briefly explain myself since my name was dragged here, and you were acting all cocky about it needlessly. It was so long ago, and I was mostly just amused on being reminded of it. Neeye correctu, happy? We can all concede that you know a lot about music, as you never fail to pathetically show off with your constant namedropping of every musician from every part of the world whatever be the topic discussed (shabbaaa, every single time, America-la Michael Jackson kooptago, Japan-la Jackie Chan kooptago…). Ennavo irundhutu po, but at least stop being a petty asshole in informal discussions which noone else seems to care about as much as you.
“100 was my rough estimate based on my sample and personal taste. I don’t know how many times in how many threads I need to stress on this! Besides, that number is less significant than the denominator, which is in several thousands, and that was my original point all along. That even if you’re generous in making it 300 or even 500, the strike rate would still be a paltry 1 in 15 or 20 songs being good. ” –
100 is not even a rough estimate but a number plucked out of thin air. The fact that you are too vain to even concede this – that you think it is beneath you to actually tabulate the list of hits in some reliable way before declaring a legendary composer had a poor strike rate. If you don’t have the time to tabulate, that’s fine but then keep that opinion to yourself. If you state it in a blog, you’re going to get an argument. You call me a lawyer for giving you an argument that you wanted in the first place and then you talk about ‘rude’. The temerity!
This was already done the last time all those years ago when we debated this but whether or not you agree on 300, 500,1000, 100 is too low a number and this is easily disproved. Here: Mouna Ragam, Agni Natchatram, Punnagai Mannan, Ninaivellam Nithya, Nizhalgal, Payanangal Mudivathilai, Muthal Mariyathai, Thendrale Ennai Thodu, Nenjathai Killathe, Aboorva Sagotharargal, Amman Koil Kizhakaale, Kizhakku Vaasal, Chinna Thambi, Jhonny, Idhaya Koil, Keladi Kanmani, Naan Paadum Paadal, Anjali, Idhayathai Thirudathe. Tell me how many ‘non hit’ songs do these films have put together. That number is not more than the fingers of a hand. Prove me wrong. List the ones that aren’t hits, not just the ones that Kadakumar doesn’t like. Your liking or disliking is irrelevant to a song becoming a hit. I don’t like most of Anirudh’s work but I have never claimed he is using a TamBram movie mafia to get assignments. And the list above is just a very small sampling of the films he worked on and doesn’t even include well known commercially successful films/films with hit albums like Kaaki Chattai, Pannakaran, Rajathi Raja, Thambikku Entha Ooru, Puthu Kavithai. It doesn’t include a single Rama Raj film or Bhagyaraj film and leaves out many, many, many of the films he worked on that starred Kamal, Rajni, Mohan, Prabhu, Karthik or many of the films directed by Mahendran, Balu Mahendra, KB, Bharatiraja. Tabulate a reasonably comprehensive hit songs list and then get back to the debate.
500 is the number BR gave for great songs. He excluded ‘template songs’ being the ones that would be less fascinating. But that is completely irrelevant if you are talking about a ‘hit’ song. How many of Anirudh’s hits over the last ten years do you actually remember? Oh, wait, do you remember your beloved’s Mona Lisa from Romeo and other bandalbaaz songs? The number of HIT songs by Raja would be even higher than 500. More like 750-1000. Again, if that’s generous, prove me wrong. Either show the rigour or don’t get into that debate. But you can’t pluck a thin air town bus number and force it down our throats.
You say even 500 is too low a strike rate and likewise would be your position even if it was a 1000. But this again simply shows ignorance of how the film industry works. Raja was not making producers wait months or even a whole year for ‘puli paal’. He was turning over films in a week to ten days. So, in a market already flooded with his music for other films, he only needed to give a maximum of two hit songs in an entire album of five-six to ensure the audience would buy cassettes of the album or watch the film in theater to hear the songs. This was the reason why producers hired Raja – because people flocked to theaters just to hear the songs. And as BR carefully mentioned in the original article and which you vainly ignored, as usual, there was so much circulation of Raja’s music that radio stations couldn’t accommodate all of the songs from an album (even a great one like Keladi Kanmani). That is why people bought the albums or watched the film in theater, not because anybody made them to by pointing a gun to their head.
“I only came by to say hi and briefly explain myself since my name was dragged here, and you were acting all cocky about it needlessly.” – To put it more succinctly, Mr Kadakumar was aggrieved at the declaration of loss in the battle and came to contest the territory, believing Madan wouldn’t bother to write back this time and reserving the option of calling him lawerly, asshole etc if he does. Mister, nobody needs your permission to invoke your name in a discussion. This discussion wasn’t even about you until you decided to make it about yourself – by first taking the time to assiduously frame your protest and then with equal alacrity declaring you have no time for all this BS though you seemed to just a moment ago. Given that you inserted yourself in a discussion (rather than a debate) about Ilayaraja’s prolificity, it’s fairly clear who’s being a jerk about this.
One last time, you can’t pluck a number out of thin air and then protest (in exceedingly rude terms, I may add, like calling us monkeys with typewriters) if you get counter arguments. If you don’t have anything concrete to back up your way low number of 100, don’t volunteer an opinion nobody asked for. You talk about my supposedly name dropping bands but unlike you, I can construct an informed essay about every one of those bands. I don’t have a habit of spouting nonsense about things I don’t know. On the other hand, you’re so overcome by Raja-hate you want to desperately cling to a terribly low number that has been shown many times to you to be wrong. You are basically behaving like Pierro Scaruffi pretending Beatles were foisted on the music industry worldwide via some unexplained conspiracy.
Sorry I didn’t go through the thread fully, so this may come as a random comment in the middle of the discussion.
Being a lay ‘paatarivilla’ listener of music, I am not anyone to comment on SJ’s singing skills. But with regards to her voice, as a lay listener, I find it very shrill and cannot go past that to listen to many of her songs fully and unfortunately have missed out on so many Ilayaraja songs. In contrast, I have been able to relish so many of MSV’s songs because I enjoy P. Susheela’s voice and singing.
Enna koduka sir pera: It isn’t just about lay v/s ‘non lay’. Tastes are a thing. My best friend dislikes Mohd Rafi’s very voice, described it as akin to the sound of a mosquito buzz. I respect opera but I will never get around to actually liking it, that’s just a bridge too far.
@Enna Koduka Sir Pera: Thanks for that comment. It echoes my sentiment and I had assumed that it was not an uncommon opinion that SJ has a shrill voice/ keechu koral. While growing up, I had heard that comment numerous times from my family, friends and neighbors that included a professional singer who had shared stage with her. I remember my grandfather used to request the channel to be flipped when some of her songs were played. All of this can just be a matter of taste of course.
Pardon me if it is a naive question and if it is not the right forum 🙂 We say music has no language and the language of music is the notes as in sa re ga in Indian classical or do re mi solfege or kural, tuttam etc in Tamil pann, but when a melody is composed , we see the lyrics fit the metre in certain language whereas it doesn’t fit that well in another language. So does this mean certain type of music ties itself closely with a particular language ? And does that denote why certain type of music originated from a certain place?
If SJ sounds shrill, it is not about her singing but about the songs given to her. Maybe shrill songs were given to her! I am not that familiar with IR or SJ from tamil music scene. I heard and still hear a lot of her telugu songs which dont sound shrill but perfect for me.
Some friends of mine say that Mukesh is nasal. Many actors have most memorable songs sung by him and they are evergreen.
Rafi sounded dull and boring sometimes. Even Kishore had some typical sleep inducing songs but enlivened by his exceptional voice.
Lata is discussed ad nauseum and there is nothing more to add. Her earliest songs and some songs afterwards made her immortal.
Anand Raghavan: Great question which can help bring out the many shibboleths in music.
It’s absolutely incorrect to say music has no language once we look at it technically. It’s more of a positive-sounding generalization that urges listeners to look past boundaries. But boundaries do exist.
Even before we get to how lyrics in a certain language and melodies written for that language fit, there are so many cultural nuances in musical subgenres that depend not just on language but even on style/accent. For eg, SPB wouldn’t use the rustic accent on Chinnamani while singing Ilanjolai. Kailash Kher’s hard and emphatic Punjabi inflection wouldn’t fit in a Mehdi Hasan ghazal. And when you get into Western, there are numerous such sub cultural aspects. And individual singers bring their own quirks.
Now, the next part of it is that composers are drawing from a well of traditional and classical melodies built up through centuries. So, yes, a standard set of melodies that fit Tamil have already developed over the years which are different from those that fit Hindi. There is also greater convergence of such melodies between the four South languages because of linguistic similarities as well as the common Carnatic base. Same as how Talat singing a Lucknavi ghazal and Mukesh singing a very UP/Bhojpuri-ish folk song are still from the same common base.
With that said, there is convergence between these divergent strands and that’s where the overambitious ‘music has no language’ saying comes in. You CAN use similarities in melodic progressions to bend language to the wills of music. Raja did this on Kaise Kahoon. The song outwardly sounds like any of his work from the early 80s but the “rehkar saamne hi/kaisi yeh judaai” line sounds like Raja composed it with Hindi in mind (Bhupinder renders it even better in the second antara: “manzil hai wo jannat/jannat hai mohabbat”, exactly like in a Hindi song). Many RD hits were first composed in Bengali and repurposed for Hindi. So there are convergences but these convergences owe to our common Indian cultural base in turn. Can you take a tune composed for Tamil and fit English lyrics on it? You can but with great difficulty and vice versa might well be impossible in many cases.
If the lyrics used are not weighty enough, it means lyrics can be manipulated to bollywood or to tollywood or to all woods who like ARR music style with any catchy lyrics.
Anand Raghavan: Actually, I’d say it’s the other way around. If the ” lyrics fit the metre in certain language whereas it doesn’t fit that well in another language,” it is the fault of the lyricist. Because language in music is very flexible. You can either be syllabic (one syllable per note of music) or melismatic (one syllable over many notes) and “adjust” to the tune. A skillful lyricist can do that. Take “Anubavam pudhumai ” and its source “Besame mucho”, or “Usure poguthey” vs “Behne de”.
The latter is a great example of two sets of excellent lyrics. Take this line:
Syllabically speaking, the Tamil “lyric” seems longer, but — like the Hindi lines — it fits exactly into one cycle of the tune’s thaalam (aadhi thaalam, eight beats).
So does this mean certain type of music ties itself closely with a particular language ?
This is the more interesting question. Because the music should suit the area the language is spoken from. In Pukar, when Rahman tunes ‘SUnta hai mera khuda’ for a Hindi film… To my ears, the song’s gamakam’s sound “south Indian-ish”. The raga is Mayamalagowla, whose Hindustani equivalent is Bhairav. This sounds more like the former: the same sangati’s as in ‘Kallellaam maanikka kal aaguma…”
Whereas when you listen to Naushad’s ‘Mohe bhool gaye saawariya’, it sounds like Bhairav. It sounds like a “North Indian” song.
But strangely, though ‘Hai Rama’ (Rangeela) is in a Carnatic ragam (Pathuvarali), it sounds neutral — probably because Rahman just uses the notes big and strong and doesn’t get into sangati’s and gamakam-s.
So I guess — at least to me — the words are never a problem when it comes to making songs. It’s more the music/tune that should fit the milieu.
Thanks BR for the insightful response and examples. May be due to familiar bias, Kampita gamakam which is a core essence of carnatic sound , sounds ‘better’ in Telugu (and also south Indian languages) , but no much in North Indian languages. In the same way ‘meend’ essence of Hindustani sound ‘better’ in Hindi/awadhi/other similar languages, ghazal in Urdu etc.
வாணி ஜெயராம் தமிழிலும் மற்றும் பல மொழிகளிலும் தனது தெவிட்டாக்குரலில் பாடல்களை தந்து ரசிகர்களை மகிழ்வித்திருக்கிறார். இது அவர் ஹிந்தியில் தந்த ஒரு பேட்டி (இரு பாகங்களில்) …
In many of her public appearances, VJ usually comes across staid (IMO). In this interview in Telugu with RK (Vemur Radhakrishna), she loosens up like I’ve never seen her before. And then there is the sixty-four-dollar question…she cleverly parries it with verbal dodges “meeku thelusu…”, “media-ku inka baaga thelusu…”, “meeru mari mari aa point-le…” etc. 🙂 RK wouldn’t let up…his doggedness pays off despite her initial discomfiture in addressing it. Relenting somewhat, she eventually drops hints about other personalities and setbacks in their career…for us to make inferences…but let all that remain a footnote in VJ’s otherwise glorious musical career spanning many languages and decades !
Aandaal’s savage love for her man (albeit, no “ordinary man”) is part of popular Tamizh lore. In blunt language, she bared her soul in verse after verse of “Naachiaar Thirumozhi”. Among one of my favorite VJ songs , though from an unreleased movie, we get an approximation of that unstinting devotion and love for her “ishta devathaa”.
Like most (if not all) of us, VJ was not perfect. Through her music and beyond, she tried to rise above some of the pettiness that divides people. Whether you liked her voice or not, whether you liked her general personality or not, IMO that is still a worthy takeaway. Here is “Olai thaangi chelladi…” (MD: C. Paandurangan, Lyrics: Chozhavandaan Raajaangam)
Jayram: Thank you for this. I have vague memories of the film (terrible IIRC) but these songs are such fun. And how amazing that BMK’s smooth timbre fits better into a “rustic song” than Yesudas’s smooth timbre in, say, “Seppu kudam thooki pora” (also with VJ).
And “High on the hills” is a Kalyani? 😀 How smoothly it segues into “Ethavunara…”
Yes, BR! BMK must have had that trademark sly grin on his face during the recording. Those segues from “High on the Hills” to “Paluku Kanda Chakkeranu Kerune” in Navarasa Kaanada and “Golden Youth” to “E Thavunara” in Kalyani; very smooth indeed. He was known for never needing a second take to record; he always got it right on the first! What a genius!
Baradwaj Rangan 
hari prasad
February 4, 2023
May her soul rest in peace…
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Spandana
February 4, 2023
First K Vishwanath and now Vani Jayaram!? May they rest in peace.
The entire sound track of Swati Kiranam for that matter. She provided the singing voice of the lead character played by Manjunath.
She provided the singing voice of the character played by Thulasi.
Tamil folks would recognize this from Agni Natchathiram.
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Ravi
February 4, 2023
Engirutho oru kural vanthathu….. Athu endrum nam manathil thangum!
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Anu Warrier
February 4, 2023
What?? Oh… 😦
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Jayram
February 4, 2023
My aunt used to sing this song a lot: https://youtu.be/MiA2zSIcIFc
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lakshmi
February 4, 2023
here’s a song where she shines. (Try not to see the video though.) Note how her voice melts around the line “pazhagum koottam vilagi poyi,” though that’s also a function of the exquisite tune, from an era when no one claimed that melody was dead.
I used to like Azhagana ilamangai kattil (Thappu Thalangal) and Malairani mundhanai (Ore Vaanam Ore Boomi)
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Jayram
February 4, 2023
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Kannaa
February 4, 2023
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Kannaa
February 4, 2023
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Kannaa
February 4, 2023
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Anand Raghavan
February 5, 2023
Yesterday K Viswanath and today Vani Jayaram…she got 2 of her 3 national awards in his films
She carved her own niche amidst other bigger legends in 70s and 80s. From among south indian playback singers of those times, she had the best ghazal rendering…
Megame Megame song is the best example
Crystal clear even in high pitch was her hallmark
One salute to her late husband who was that man behind every successful women…he made her learn hindustani after they moved to Bombay and helped her to become a playback singer.
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musical v
February 5, 2023
Highly gifted singer.
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Rocky
February 5, 2023
Om Shanti Shanti.
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brangan
February 5, 2023
Was thinking about how many blockbuster songs she had under the likes of MSV, V Kumar and Vijayabhaskar in the 1970s. Like this one…
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lakshmi
February 5, 2023
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Kannaa
February 5, 2023
SPB & VJ have delighted us with many duets and they remain my favorite duo. Here is a peppy Kannada number from the two
and this one is a lovely Tamizh duet
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Madan
February 5, 2023
RIP.
Not one of my ‘top’ favourites but goes without saying that she was a very, very accomplished singer. Had many classics with Raja. I am surprised that some of them haven’t come up yet, so here we go:
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Madan
February 5, 2023
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Madan
February 5, 2023
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Madan
February 5, 2023
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Madan
February 5, 2023
Not exactly quite a classic, but still a very nice song. Don’t know if it was Sada Master or Chandrashekar who played guitar on this one but that’s a heck of a beautiful tone.
Aside: Sada Master has been uploading videos of himself playing the guitar portions of many songs and it brings out how much of the quintessential Raja sound also derives from his beautiful tone. I wish we would do a much, much, much better job of documenting what these musicians did and do and dislike how they’ve been, inadvertently or not, relegated to dispensable and invisible foot soldiers. Some channels like Adhan or Galatta have started to at least interview them but these interviews are still too broad and don’t get down to enough specifics to quench the thirst of a nerd like me (and I know there are many of us who want those conversations to happen).
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Madan
February 5, 2023
Not a huge fan of the song itself beyond the first interlude/stanza which promises a L Subramaniam-esque fusion feat but a good showcase of her skills:
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Honest Raj
February 5, 2023
@Madan: “Poo Malarnthida” was by Jency (although the voice is strikingly similar to that of VJ in this song).
She was underutilized by Raja, but two of her best songs – “Ennullil Engo” and “Kavithai Kelungal” – came from her collaboration with him.
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Madan
February 5, 2023
Thanks Honest Raj. Wow! All these years I thought it was Vani. I have to reassess my opinion of Jency now. I don’t get how she was pretty much flawless on this song and yet went nails to a chalkboard on most of the rest, including beautiful numbers like En Vaaniley.
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Anand Raghavan
February 5, 2023
@Madan, what’s your opinion on Megame Megame as a ghazal rendition?
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Kannaa
February 5, 2023
A poignant VJ rendition about the character’s predicament…set to MSV’s music and Jayakanthan’s meditative lines…
“…தருவதனால் பெறுவதனால் உறவு தாம்பத்யம் ஆகாதோ
இவள் தரவில்லை பெறவில்லை, தனி மரமாய் ஆனாளே
சிறு வயதில் செய்த பிழை சிலுவயென சுமக்கின்றாள்
இவள் மறுபடியும் உயிர்ப்பாளோ, மலரெனவே முகிழ்ப்பாளோ…”
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Madan
February 5, 2023
Anand Raghavan: Very nice song and beautifully song. Tho, at the end, I’d still rather hear a ghazal in Hindi/Urdu. It’s so much tougher to get the same velvet soft diction of Ghulam Ali or Mehdi Hassan in Tamil because Tamil has a more consonant heavy sound.
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Anupama
February 5, 2023
My most-treasured songs of the few I’ve had the pleasure of experiencing:
Naa ninna marayalaare
First heard this on a bus and it remained imprinted in my memory mainly because of the chemistry between Vani and Rajkumar
The way they string together words of the sentence, each lending their unique style substantiates this
Andha maanai paarungal azhagu
Vani’s melodious voice taking us through the picturesque sights of Andaman soothens the soul and recreates the scenery when one closes their eyes to absorb
Vasantha Kaala Nadhigalile
Vani’s innocent voice in the major part of the song along with her well-timed laugh makes it endearing to hear, while the sudden shocking change in situation sets the stage for MSV’s ominous notes to strike.
What gave me goosebumps was the resigned yet resolute conviction in Vani’s voice when Rajni and Sridevi meet in an unexpected (for Rajni) alteration of circumstances
Ival Unnai Ninaithapodhu
To hear Vani’s childlike, slightly high-pitched voice infuse the devil-may-care attitude in the song fills me with amazement at how she pulled it off. The tongue-in-cheek laugh towards the end matched the character’s mood marvelously
It is a rare find in movies of today to have an unconventional side character with the kind of impact Rama Prabha’s pickpocket had in 47 Naatkal. Hats off to the singer and actor for essaying it in such a memorable manner
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brangan
February 6, 2023
Another major radio-time hit, a gorgeous semi-classical number from MSV – and Vani’s voice piercing through with that fusillade of akaram-s at the beginning is mind-blowing.
It was an 80s film and I think, quite controversial – SAVITHRI. Don’t recall much about it. Anyone old enough here to recall the controversy? 🙂
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brangan
February 6, 2023
A Vijayabhaskar duet with SPB from Sridhar’s megaflop SOUNDARYAME VARUGA VARUGA
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Ravi
February 6, 2023
Yes, BR. I recall Savithri as a remake of a Malayalam movie. It would have probably sunk without a trace but some organizations protested against the movie demanding its ban and the movie then had a decent run of more than 50 days!! The movie also had a Vani solo “Vazhnthal Unnodu” which also was a moderate hit.
You wrote an article sometime back on the 80’s hits of MSV. This song was not there but I had suggested “Mazhai kalam” as an alternative to one of the songs in your list. I also recall you respond very positively to this song from Madi Veettu Ezhai even though you wished Yesudas had sung it instead of TMS (with Vani):
Ravi
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Ravi
February 6, 2023
Anupama: Here is a lesser known (compared to Vasantha kala..) PJ-VJ duet from the same movie:
Some rarely heard PJ- VJ duets:
https://youtu.be/syosMMrWl7M (again “Thendralil Adum with KJY is more popular)
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Nimmi Rangaswamy
February 6, 2023
The movie Savithri did something no other filmmaker had done to the Tamil Brahmin women- Inter-caste extra marital affair – Say no more!
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vijay
February 6, 2023
VJ’s solos/duets for MSV like malligai mullai poo pandhal, pongum kadalaosai, vaazhndhaal unnodu, thangathil udaleduthu, idhu dhaan mudhal raathiri, chandira pirai paarthen etc. etc. are a genre in itself..Later she became a stock singer for shankar-ganesh in the 80s mostly with IR only occasionally going to her..meghame meghame, yaaradhu sollamaal and muthu muthu therottam are favourites, though.
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Madan
February 6, 2023
Inraikku En is another classic duet of Vani -PJ.
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KayKay
February 6, 2023
RIP. An amazing singer. So many songs, and yet evergreen classics for me remain 7 Swarangulukkul Ethanai Paadal, Nathamenum Kovilile, Malligai Un Mannan Mayangum. An unearthed gem (thanks to B in another post) is Muthamizh Sonthangal from Maadi Veettu Ezhai.
Pity Raja’s Go-To was Janaki at his peak else who knows how many more hits Ms Jayram could have got under his musical baton.
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Anand Raghavan
February 6, 2023
May be is it due to fact that number of genres that Raja straddled and Janaki is almost a female SPB in terms of versatility that suited Raja. An idhu oru Nila kalam , a light classical like Om Namachivaya, light melodies and numerous folk songs etc , she was able to do it all . Just my guess. Madan can throw some light.
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Madan
February 7, 2023
Anand Raghavan: Yes, agreed all the way through. SPB and SJ were just the most natural fits in Raja-world. I may not rank SJ right up with SPB in versatility considering SPB did scat, soul-grit and possibly even rapping (?) if it’s him in the first interlude of Iniya Gaanam. But basically, there really wasn’t a particular need for Raja to go to Vaani who didn’t offer something very distinctly different from SJ (unlike Chitra). In the 80s, he could have given just about every song (except Yesu/PJ or Vani for semi-classical numbers) to SPB and SJ and it wouldn’t have mattered.
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Madan
February 7, 2023
Another one:
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KayKay
February 7, 2023
Good point Madan. Although given the fact that a pretty heavily classical number (for a film song, that is) like Kootathile Kovil Pura from Idhaya Koil could still be delivered by SPB with aplomb meant Raja could have just given everything to the SPB-SJ duo and just be done with it:-)
But that would have made for a pretty monotonous musical landscape (like Malayalam Film Music in the 70s and 80s where it most likely was etched in stone that every song of note needed to be given to “Dass-Ettan” with some left over scraps thrown to the criminally under-utilized P Jayachandran and rising talents like Unni Menon could barely get a foot through the door)
I love SJ to death but some numbers where her voice could get a little shrilly I felt could have greatly benefitted from a more soulful and even rendering from VJ.
Ah yes! Kaalam Maaralam from Vazhkai. What a deceptively simple melody that nevertheless got it’s hooks into you and refused to let go! The Raja Effect! And SPB and VJ knocking it out of the park!
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Kannaa
February 7, 2023
The duo who made a habit of enchanting listeners… in one of their early hits for Vijayabhaskar
A solo for Gangai Amaran (audio not of good quality)
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Kannaa
February 7, 2023
VJ had many hits among “naattuppura paattu” as well. “aala maraththu kili” was one such
Here is another one:
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Kannaa
February 7, 2023
VJ could easily slip into the role of an itinerant “குறத்தி” within a song (this one for IR)
With equal panache, she could turn around and do all of this within a song
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Madan
February 7, 2023
I agree that SJ could get shrill at times but it is not necessarily a problem that he solved by giving the songs to Vani. It would be too much needless technical info if I went down that rabbit hole and besides I want to respect a dead soul but it’s something about how Vani sang some syllables. It was with Chitra that Raja finally had a terrific alternative. And yet, she had to be coaxed to sing the more raunchy numbers and Raja still went with SPB-SJ on Vazhavaikkum. And even today, I don’t think Chitra gets quite there with raunchy or erotic singing. IIRC she sang Kannan Vandhu Paaduginran in the 2011 Chennai show and it was very nice but that song needs more than nice.
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musical v
February 7, 2023
I think that comfort level they share also matters.
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Anand Raghavan
February 7, 2023
Yes, Vaazhavaikkum kadhakukku is a perfect example of what SPB-SJ brought to Raja’s table that no other combo could bring him back then. And is there anyone who would be able to do that even now?
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ItsVerySimple
February 7, 2023
I cannot think of any other singer who complements Raaja as much as S Janaki does. (I would even rate her over SPB though I know very well I am in the minority). So, for me, it is not pity-Raaja-picked-SJanaki-over-others, it is more like thank-god-he-did. From what I hear from S Janaki’s interviews, even Raaja felt his songs were “going waste” when S Janaki wasn’t there to sing them and he had to record with someone else.
Vani, Janaki and Chithra are all great singers on their own merits, they all had their own limitations but the other two were far behind Janaki when it came to emoting through songs. (Of course, all of this in my – very strong -opinon).
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Jailer Vikram
February 8, 2023
I dont know if this song has been mentioned (the Youtube plug ins dont play for me). Amma undhan kai valaiyai aaga maatena from Nijangal. The film released in the early 80s when I was perhaps 2 or 3 yrs old. In my late teens I heard this song for the first time on All India Radio and was instantly moved to tears. I had a tumultuous relationship with my mom all through and yet Vani’s voice conveyed all that I wanted to tell my mom. Ippo ammavum illa Vaniyum illa kaila valai podura pazhakamum illa. The song lingers on…
(@Lakshmi – lovely songs)
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Madan
February 8, 2023
“(I would even rate her over SPB though I know very well I am in the minority)” – I kind of hear you. Technically, SPB is a shade better and gave Raja more options. But Raja also had to rein him in from over-ubbifying on some songs and couldn’t on occasion (Devathai Ilam Devi, Vaigariyil, Paadi Parantha Killi come to mind). I am struggling to think of an SPB melancholy solo that has the intensity of Kaatril Endhan Geetham without crossing over into over-emoting. SJ was always on the mark when it came to emoting.
” From what I hear from S Janaki’s interviews, even Raaja felt his songs were “going waste” when S Janaki wasn’t there to sing them and he had to record with someone else.” – This is interesting! Any links or are these from old Kumudam/Vikatan interviews?
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Madan
February 8, 2023
Anand Raghavan: There’s definitely no male-female ‘jodi’ that gets up to a Vaazhavaikkum level today. I was listening to it on the way back from work and the two are so much in sync it’s like a dialogue/call-response. When you think of it, the pallavi is nothing great on the surface and only really works because of the groove but SPB-SJ really ‘get’ it and capture that sense of steamy fun with their singing. I think only Kishore-Asha compares all time as a duet-combination with SPB-SJ.
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brangan
February 8, 2023
Jailer Vikram: Oh, ‘Amma undhan kai valaiyai” was from a film? I thought it was something MB Sreenivasan did for Doordarshan.
That was a lovely comment. Lyrics have a way of “finding” the right words we are not able to find in real life. Also, because film songs (or other songs) remain at a distance, as disembodied things, we don’t have to deal with the frictions of people — there’s a purity about the idealised emotions songs express, uncorrupted by the realities of real-life human behaviour 🙂
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Shankar
February 8, 2023
RIP Vani Jayaram, love a lot of her songs…she was really good.
What I want to talk about is SJ. To me, she was as versatile as SPB. Her emoting was quite superb. Yes, I hear the criticism about her shrillness, especially in the latter years, and it is valid. But purely from a singing ability standpoint and emoting, she was par none, and hence was the go-to for Raja. I completely agree with Madan on the raunchiness quotient, though she was equally sublime in countless songs like Sorgame endralum, Poova eduthu oru maalai etc.
Case in point:
Hear Asha (as great as she is)…emote in this song (keeping Silk in mind) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vILNAJGSsGM
Now hear what SJ brings to the table, there’s just no comparison! Case closed…
The entire track is lifted several notches by all the little things that SJ does….incredible! Yes, it’s an item song…but what emoting!
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KayKay
February 8, 2023
“I am struggling to think of an SPB melancholy solo that has the intensity of Kaatril Endhan Geetham without crossing over into over-emoting”
Chinna Pura Ondru from Anbe Sangeetha
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Madan
February 8, 2023
Shankar: Perfect comparison. Ponmeni just slays O Babua. I didn’t even open the link, moment you said Silk and Asha, knew this had to be the one.
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Madan
February 8, 2023
And also, it’s no ordinary item song. The arrangements are incredible, so trippy. A very prog, especially Canterbury, flavour but used in a completely different light from that kind of music.
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Madan
February 8, 2023
Great one! I don’t think the SONG compares to Kaatril but, yes, the singing does.
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Jailer Vikram
February 8, 2023
@BR: Thank you. I heard this song first in Vividbharathi Varthaga Oliparappu on AIR some 25 years ago and latest on the 101.4 Rainbow FM. Have never seen its video. Google mentioned it is from this film called Nijangal. Frankly I dont know if it is veritable. If this was something created for Doordarshan, then it would add to the long list of DD exclusive songs (Rayil Sneham, Kaana Kidaikkadha Thangam, Mahabharat, Chandrakanta, Tholaindhu ponavargal and such title songs) that were among my favourites
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ItsVerySimple
February 8, 2023
@Madan, sorry forgot to mention the interview was in Telugu 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pu_wnQp0R8 here from 3:50.
(a gist if you do not follow the language – once she requested to go quickly to an MSV recording at the same studio till Raaja’s recording was doing orchestra rehearsals, he warned MSV’s won’t end on time (LOL), she went to the recording despite the warning, it got delayed, when she came back she heard Jency was recording the song instead, she and her husband got angry, left without even getting out of the car, refused all further calls for two months, Raaja started stalking her at functions and complained “ipdi panna epdi, paattellaam kettu pogudhu”. She even mimics him! A few more such fights).
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Jailer Vikram
February 8, 2023
@Madan: In Kumudham magazine, Raja had mentioned (in some readers Q&A series) that though Janaki did not have a great voice, she compensated for it with her skillful rendition. (I think, he used the word sumaar to describe her voice – quoting from flailing memory though) I felt he liked Chitra more but since Chitra couldnt get much bhaavam, he kept giving SJ his best songs. Ofcourse he had Swarnalatha too to belt out something like Neeyenge En Anbe & Aasa machan vangi thantha malligappo & Maasi maasam with ease. There’s none like Janaki to sing heroine “elevation” songs: Oho Meham vandhadho, Rojapoo aadi vandhadhu, ivaloru ilanguruvi, Kannan vandhu padugiran, poovarasampoo etc.
I like SPBs urugal though. We rarely got to watch songs back then. Radio & tape recorder were the main sources and he somehow transmitted the visuals effectively. Otoh Devathai ilam devi always gave me goosebumps while hearing, watching it with a pei Karthik & sulakshana – not so much 😁
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Ravi K
February 8, 2023
The original of Devathai Ilam Devi, Kelade Nimageega from the Kannada film “Geetha,” has SPB emoting (or over-emoting) in it:
This is one of two songs Vani Jairam sang for ARR, the other being Sugam Sugam from “Vandicholai Chinraasu.” Even at this later date (2014) her voice was still lovely.
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Madan
February 9, 2023
ItsVerySimple: Thanks a lot for the gist as I don’t understand Telugu. But I did get the part where she mimicked him, lol.
Jailer Vikram: I remember that fracas (SJ was very cross with him and expressed a public retort). I don’t remember if he did use the word sumaar but the words were to the effect that she had made the most of relatively limited talent. I agree that he probably liked Chitra’s voice more (and also, he could flaunt her as ‘his’ discovery while SJ was well established by the time he came along) but couldn’t get her to go to all the places SJ did. Swarnalatha had amazing versatility and that’s probably why, with SJ’s voice beginning to decline in the 90s, he used Swarnalatha more and more in those kind of songs (like Jigan Jinakku or Madathile).
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KayKay
February 9, 2023
That “sumaar” comment about SJ’s voice is why Raja frequently comes across like an asshole (his gargantuan talents not withstanding).
For him, singers were just mere delivery mechanisms for his amazing tunes and complex arrangements.
But just listen to his own flat renditions of “Idhayam Oru Kovil” and “Nanaaga Nanillai Thaaye” in soundtracks where SPB had rendered the same tunes and see just how much a singer brings to a song. But Isai Ngani tends to forget this sometimes as he disappears up his elevated tower of self importance.
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Madan
February 9, 2023
Yup, I remember in one interview given during the release of Shamitabh, he was asked how he made a hit song with AB’s singing (duh, interviewer forgot Mere Angane Mein). And he said his songs become hits with any singer singing them. O RLY? Like you said, he seems to regard the singer as a medium to transmit the vocal melody and nothing more but the songs would be diminished, even if still great, without the brilliant embellishments SPB and SJ in particular brought to the table. He knows this too and this was why he used them more often even when he had the option of using KJ or Chitra. But he can’t concede publicly that the singers had a role in elevating his songs as well. I am not sure if Raja ever read Ayn Rand but he would be a big time fanboy if he did. Or a character from her book. Never had the grace of Naushad in acknowledging Rafi or Lata or RD wrt Kishore. SPB was big hearted enough to not let that get in the way of his friendship with Raja.
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Anand Raghavan
February 9, 2023
Swarnalatha could also bring in the melancholy that was missing 8n Chithra. Kuyil paattu, neeyenge en anbe , ennulle with Raja all had the touch of sadness and Porale ponnuthayi , Poongatrile (with unni meno) , Evano oruvan with ARR were absolutely soulful renderings.
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hari prasad
February 9, 2023
Found this superb Shankar – Ganesh song sung by SPB for Vijayan ( I’ve never seen him as a fun dude , so this video song for me, was a shocker!) while I was busy playing some mid 70s to early 80s songs on YouTube for my mom to listen…
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Madan
February 9, 2023
Anand Raghavan: Yup, Swarnalatha was overall a lot better at emoting, quite a flamboyant singer. Her voice could get grating on some songs, that was maybe her one slight weakness. Contrary to Raja’s sumaar comment, Janaki did have a great tone that sounded great even when she rendered vocalese (wordless) right from the intro of Annakilli to similar ones in Kaatril Endhan Geetham, Paadu Nilave, Puthum Puthu Kaalai and many others. Actually Raja himself while describing his experience of demo-ing the title track of Annakilli to Panju Arunachalam, mentioned how there was a power cut but Janaki delivered the melody without a mic. That’s what made his left handed compliment sound so off colour.
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Anu Warrier
February 9, 2023
Raja’s comment about Janaki only diminishes him in stature. S Janaki, for us Malayalis, was equal to Lata, sometimes even better. Though that might seem like blasphemy because I adore Lata. That voice, that range, the emoting, the sheer virtuosity… how can anyone say her voice is ‘sumaar’? Boggles the mind.
And I’m very sorry, I love Ilaiyaraja; I think he is a genius, but he’s also composed many melodies which seemed like he was sleepwalking through the score.
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musical v
February 10, 2023
ItsVerySimple: Thanks for posting that interview with Janaki. Her views on old songs were a revelation. Her evergreen Neeli meghalalo is one of my favourites. Average and poor films are lucky to have excellent songs from excellent singers.
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Madan
February 10, 2023
Anu Warrier: I don’t really blame him for the sleepwalk melodies because he composed absolutely gargantuan amounts of music, at least three times or more as many films as the most prolific of his predecessors. But yeah, the fact that he finds it so hard not to damn even his closest collaborators with faint praise does diminish his stature in my eyes too. Note, I say stature, as an eminent personality. It doesn’t make him a lesser composer or less talented before somebody jumps on my comment.
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Jailer Vikram
February 10, 2023
Found this in Baburavikumar WordPress article: Due credit to the author – he has translated the answer.
“To a question about which singers have unique voice, he mentions that there are many categories of voices. Some people have beautiful voice that whatever they sing becomes beautiful. He says the voices of Lata Mangeshkar and Mehdi Hassan are the top most in this category. Some people have average voice, but with their talent and skills make the song beautiful to hear. He says, S.Janaki’s voice belongs to this category. He mentions Asha Bhosle’s voice is another category. However, he mentions the following people are the ones with unique voices and no one else has similar voice:
Nat King Cole
Bhanumathi
S.Varalakshmi
Bhavatharini, his daughter
Swarnalatha”
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Madan
February 10, 2023
That’s more or less how I remembered it. The thing is Janaki’s VOICE isn’t average anything. Thats evident even when she speaks. I also found his singling out of NKC strange. Not that Nat King Cole wasn’t great but there are surely better examples from the West. How about Tom Jones, Engelbert Humperdinck or Tony Bennett if it’s crooners he wants? If that’s too much white skin, how about Stevie Wonder? Or even the one Raja namedrops all the time – Michael Jackson? As not a huge fan of MJ, I do still think he had an exquisite and unique voice.
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Anu Warrier
February 10, 2023
Madan, oh, agreed. Not a word against his talent or his immense body of work. That’s never in doubt. It is his stature as such a great composer that diminishes (in my eyes). No (wo)man ever became small because they praised someone. On the contrary. It elevates them because it shows a largeness of heart (and their own self-confidence) to embrace the greatness of others.
And of course, the fact that he has composed so many melodies across languages is the very reason that there are quite a few of his compositions that are mediocre (in comparison to his own work). It’s like S-J in Hindi. Great composers, but man, there are some doozies where you wondered what they were smoking when they composed those songs. In any creative field, creativity can drop at some point, right? I mean, how many wells of inspiration do you draw from?
But, at his good-to-best, Raja’s songs are extraordinary; there’s no argument about that. And I hope I am not misread, either.
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brangan
February 10, 2023
Anu Warrier: And of course, the fact that he has composed so many melodies across languages is the very reason that there are quite a few of his compositions that are mediocre (in comparison to his own work). It’s like S-J in Hindi.
This is a great point and it cannot be emphasised enough. It’s not just about Raja or S-J or RDB or Rahman — it’s about everyone working in any creative field. “Being prolific” means little when the work itself doesn’t stand out.
Take this song from MOONAM PAKKAM, from which the big hit was the lovely “Thamarakili paadunnu…”
Is it a bad song? Most definitely not. But it’s also a “template song”, and Raja has composed so many songs with this same beat, with this same melody-progression… Like this…
So it does not stand out, even though it is a “nice song” (give or take a few variations). Similarly, there’s a whole genre of amma/aatha songs that run into the hundreds and that just do nothing especially “creative”. (Though they may be hits.)
So being prolific, IMO, is no measure of an artist unless ALL songs and all BG scores are fabulous. And I come to the second important point you make: “at his good-to-best, Raja’s songs are extraordinary…”
Now, THIS is the real measure. When an artist is in form, what are they capable of? That’s what separates the greats from the also-rans. There was a commenter called Tambi Dude who once said that if you counted the number of truly “great” Raja songs (as opposed to the nice, pleasant ones, or uninspired/bad ones), you would be left with a number far lesser than what’s written seem to suggest.
But that’s the point: even if Raja “only” made, say, 500 truly great cutting-edge songs, that’s still a phenomenal yardstick that needs no further “amplification”. The proof is in the pudding.
That’s the same for all music composers in India, because — unlike in India — they are working under enormous pressure to deliver. At his peak, alongside Raja, T Rajendhar was a damn good composer and his songs were off-the-chart hits. But then, he lost his mojo. Burnout happens to everyone.
Of course, all of these are personal opinions, and let me add one more: I think Raja’s music reached another level when he had a truly inspired lyricist like the early Vairamuthu. Imagine this: you are revolutionising Tamil film music, and you find someone who is revolutionising Tamil film lyrics. What a feeling it must be. Imagine composing a line and finding it fitted with “nee aadai anigalan soodum araigalil roja malligai vaasam”
Of course, many of these songs are lost in time now for the Gen-Z’s or people who call themselves the “GV Prakash generation” or “the Anirudh generation” or whatever — and we may laugh at them from our old-fart vantage points, but that is how the old replaces the new.
And finally, music is so intertwined with the “templates” that are installed in you as you are growing up, that you find it harder to appreciate songs of an older (or newer) “template”. For instance, I stumbled upon this gorgeous Chitragupt song only a few years ago:
I liked it instantly, because:
the “template” of Lata/Manna Dey voices are strongly installed in me
the “template” of Raag Kedar is strongly installed in me
the “template” of that era of sound is strongly installed in me (which may be dismissed by someone who started listening to film music in the Rahman era)
Incidentally, an American friend of mine heard Lata and P Sushila for the first time and said “it sounds like Minnie Mouse”. I was outraged for all of five seconds, but then I had to laugh and concede that that might indeed be the case. They sound perfectly natural to me because that “template” of voice is installed in me, but imagine listening to those “bel canto” style pitches/stylings brand new 🙂
Anyway, thanks for making me write this long, rambling set of thoughts. After a long time, a comment about music made me think, and the result is this morning outpouring, in the midst of a really bad cold/cough 🙂
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ItsVerySimple
February 10, 2023
His answer (and more) here. https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=477205968995835&set=oa.10151437975302206
@musical v : my pleasure! That is one of my favorite interviews of her.
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Madan
February 10, 2023
Anu Warrier: ” It’s like S-J in Hindi. Great composers, but man, there are some doozies where you wondered what they were smoking when they composed those songs. ” – Perfect example, I think you will find maximum template songs in the back catalogue of IR, SJ and LP because they composed so much music in a short time at their peak.
BR: Interesting rumination on template song phenomenon.
IIRC it was KS who made the comment that IR just had 100 great songs and the rest are trash and when we challenged him, he backed out of putting a definite number on it but went into a conspiratorial deep end about a Raja mafia ‘compelling’ producers to accept terrible songs.
I once did a tabulation of IR songs starting from the most unique like Mandram Vandha or Neethane En Ponvasantham and sliding down towards the less unique. I stopped at roughly over 300 songs. Of course, everyone’s ranking is going to be different, but… At the #100 mark, my list has songs like Valayosai, Ayiram Thamarai, Nikkatuma, Paruvame etc. These are still amazing songs! Around the #150 mark I have songs like Vaa Vaa Pakkam Vaa or Vegam Vegam. Around #200, Salaioram, Thaana Vantha Santhaname, etc. At #300 is where we start to get towards moderately templated songs like Vaanam Thodhadha Megam, Keladi En. My list doesn’t even have Oomai Nenjin Osaigal which is still a fine song (in fact no songs from that film other than Oru Killi Uruguthu).
So you could put the number of truly great songs at around 300-350. I am not sure we get up to 500 songs but that depends on whether you rank ‘great’ for a Raja song in the same way you would for other composers. We can excavate and find something interesting he did in all but the dullest of the templated songs but that’s not a very fair standard when applied ‘globally’ for film music because fans of every composer would think that way. Even so, 300-350 great songs is still an extraordinarily large number. You get somewhere around that number if you add up all the Beatles songs from first to last album, including the not so great early ones like Hard Day’s Night. From the West, Frank Zappa is the only one who compares to Raja’s prolificity and then he made very avant garde music.
Speaking of, that brings me to your American friend. There is some curious timing about my renewed disillusionment with the West in 2022-23 (as I was in 2003 when Bush used 9/11 to finish his dad’s war on Iraq). But after conversing with very many ardent musophiles there, I can count on the hands of a finger the ones where were receptive to the very idea of exploring Indian film music. I am talking about ultra open minded ones who could list more genres they listened to than the number of Tamil music directors an average listener here might be aware of.
But they were perhaps too caught up in their own definitions and notions in the end and too comfortable in their silos. If you compared how much I have explored Western music with how much they have of Indian music, I don’t think they’d have gone more than a percent as far as I have. Again, this is a generalization. I know this 60 plus chap who is a piano teacher living in Florida and he was quite receptive to Indian music (among many other kinds of music) and loved Gagan Dhuan Dhuan and really admired how Bombay Jayashree’s singing ‘sounded’ much younger than her years. I actually relayed a question of his to B Prasanna who also graciously answered it to his satisfaction. But his breed are vanishingly few. If I, brought up on Rafi, Kishore and SPB, can appreciate BBK’s gruff voice, Lata or PS should hardly be a giant leap from Julie Andrews. And surely Lata is less Mickey Mouse like than Kate Bush! And that’s coming from a Kate Bush fan, mind.
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Madan
February 10, 2023
If the part about Murica/West sounds a bit like Reluctant Fundamentalist, that shouldn’t be a surprise as I love that book and read it again recently. Complete tangent but whether them or Russia, they will never stop fighting bloody wars in the name of some or other imagined ideals to shroud their real agendas. What’s the point of being so ‘civilized’ and ‘advanced’ when they’re so easily persuaded of war as an attractive option.
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musical v
February 10, 2023
Music is like food. While Indians try different cuisines and adopt them happily, very few non Indians are into Indian cuisines. At the most they like meat dishes and curries from here. Or an occasional dosa which is rare. This extends to movies too. We are over the top when westerners acknowledge or pay lip service to some of our movies, songs in a condescending manner.
Indians have more appetite for general knowledge, for other things. While most of the westerners are content with their own country, with their own people, with their own things. Frogs in the well?
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Madan
February 10, 2023
musical v: To be clear, there are plenty frogs in the well amongst Indians too. I know people who would look so frightened at the thought of listening to Western music you’d think it was poison. Worse, there are people landing up here in Africa and complaining about the food, like lack of sambar rice. I am like, seriously what did you expect to get here, you should be thankful you get Indian food every day, every meal.
But yeah, even within the internet musophile community, I have found ultimately Europeans and Americans prefer pontificating about open mindedness than practicing it.
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Anand Raghavan
February 10, 2023
Good analysis BR, particularly on how the templates instilled in us . I feel QFR like programs where the gems of previous eras are recreated with history and musical details sung by young singers might help in the current/future generations to appreciate it better.
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KayKay
February 10, 2023
Anytime B or Madan go off on a tangent on music is a good day, in my book!
I don’t care who you are, but you lose me instantly when you slot “average” and “SJ’s voice” in the same topic. Whatever Raja’s smoking, dude’s obviously high. Then again, I will wager Raja only ever gets high on Raja.
But coming back to the man’s musical talent, I agree with B, that when the Man’s in his Zone…he’s damn near untouchable and the Devas and Vidyasagars and even the Shankar Ganeshs are left in his trailing dust, as enormously talented as they themselves are.
And B…interesting you posted that very average song from Ananda Kummi, but it’s also that same film where Raja gave us the infectious “Thamarai Kodi” with SBP’s ebullient singing and it’s Western and Mexican “Mariachi” style arrangements coming together to give us a heady concoction.
And Madan, agree that NKC is a strange choice for a “unique” voice. I love his voice (in fact it’s growing up listening to these crooners and also KJY and SPB that has me lamenting the lack of real baritone voices among today’s singers) but if you say that voice is unique, then that’s a description that would equally fit, say a Bing Crosby or a Frank Sinatra .
Yes, MJ truly had a unique voice but even he styled himself on the great Smoky Robinson.
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KayKay
February 10, 2023
“To be clear, there are plenty frogs in the well amongst Indians too. I know people who would look so frightened at the thought of listening to Western music you’d think it was poison”
Never mind the East/West divide…among my circle I have Tamil friends who never listen to Hindi Songs and Punjabi mates who don’t listen to any South Indian music.
Their loss.
ARR had a recent concert in KL, and on FB there were plenty of gripes that he sang “too many Hindi songs” when the majority of Indian population in Malaysia are Tamils.
Sigh!
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vijay
February 10, 2023
SJ’s voice(not her singing) has always been a contentious topic. IR, is well within his right, to feel that her voice was’nt special but her singing was. I am not sure what the outrage is all about. The fact that when SJ was mostly relegated to being a second-tier singer in the 60s, IR was determined to tap into her talent and made her the busiest lady singer of the 80s in TFM..if that does’nt show what he really thought of SJ, nothing else does..Infact one of my gripes with IR is that he stuck too long with SJ, even in the early-mid 90s at the expense of Chitra/Swarnalatha. But he has mentioned several times that SPB-SJ was probably his favorite pair. And that’s a big compliment, coming from a guy like him who is known for dishing out tough love. (and another thing to note is that SJ, despite the renaissance that she had with IR, has never been very generous with her praise either when it came to IR or his music in her interviews. Contrast that to how SPB is always effusive in his praise )
There are other things about IR that demands more outrage like how he treated lyrics/lyricists later in his career and how he moved about with some of the younger directors in the late 80s/early 90s or how he promoted his daughter at the expense of swaranalatha/sujatha/chitra in the mid to late 90s or how IR’s male singer introductions have been mostly disastrous and so on and on..
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Anu Warrier
February 10, 2023
BR, thanks for fleshing out my nascent thoughts. You gave voice to what I was feeling.
Madan, I’m slightly luckier than you are; we have many American friends/acquaintances who are entranced by our music. Of course, the fact that they are all musicians might have something to do with it. My son, who’s learning music, keeps sending his teacher clips of Lata, Asha, Janaki, Yesudas, etc. My husband’s guitar teacher is yet another person who’s blown away by the music compositions of Salil, Madan Mohan and RD. But I agree with you – an American friend, who’s heavily into old Hindi films, complains that his wife thinks Lata’s voice sounds like nails on a chalkboard. (This is vintage Lata he’s talking about; I told him that comment was grounds for a divorce. 🙂 )
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Aman Basha
February 10, 2023
Funny thing about this is both K Vishwanath and S Janaki both hail from a place close to my native Ponnur 🙂 My close friend is a distant relative of Janaki, so I always thought of her as some sort of chilipi (feisty) great aunt. After hearing Ponmeni Uruguthey (which is just amazing, I’ll be going to this quite some time :), I’m amazed she sang this song, at age 50 . Now I understand why people consider Susheela for her technique and Janaki for her feel. The contrast with Asha (who herself is this very silken voice type with famous cabaret songs) really adds to the halo around her. Though the tamil lyrics seem better than the hindi lyrics (oh babua yeh mahua? Seriously, this was by Gulzar!) The telugu version has better lyrics (also by Janaki):
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Madan
February 10, 2023
Anu Warrier: Yes, I think musicians would be better equipped to look past cultural nuances and get right down to the notes, the meat and potatoes. The popular youtuber Doug Helvering (Daily Doug) once shared a Hindustani interpretation of a Western classical composition. But it’s at the fairly-knowledgable-about-music-without-being-a-musician level that I find that ‘we’ are more curious about their music than the other way round.
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Madan
February 10, 2023
Aman Basha: There isn’t even daylight technically between PS and SJ. PS was singing in a different era of Tamil music when the emphasis was much more on tonal purity. If you sing in a more flexible, adventurous way, you MAY hit slightly off center notes at times. That actually adds to the charm. It’s not highly desirable to have erotica done in a light that satisfies music teacher-esque requirements of sruthi.
Also, as you note, SJ was 44 when she sang Ponmeni (she was born in 1938). So she actually enjoyed her ‘peak’ with Raja rather late in her career. If you listen to the intro humming in Ninaivo Oru Paravai, you can tell her voice quality was better in the 70s but music directors before Raja didn’t have a vision for her. Sort of what happened with Kishore before RDB.
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Madan
February 10, 2023
“SJ’s voice(not her singing) has always been a contentious topic ” – Really? I mean, I would like to hear it explained what is so contentious about her singing. I think it’s much more that pre-Raja composers already had a vision woven around TMS/PBS and PS with LR Eswari for raunchy numbers so they couldn’t find a place to fit SJ. That way, SJ, SPB, KJ all had to wait for Raja to get the songs they are better known by today. That is not a reflection on their skill but on the evolution of styles in Tamil music. As I said above, that would mean Kishore’s voice was not special because composers before RD didn’t use him except for Dev Anand or for himself.
“IR, is well within his right, to feel that her voice was’nt special but her singing was. ” – And we are well within our rights also to call out his fondness for issuing unkind cuts about not those who he didn’t get along but those with whom he collaborated the most. Given the speed at which he worked, nobody without strong natural gifts in singing could have gone on to be his no.1 choice among female singers. He never gave time to singers to get ‘ready’ so if he still thinks they are not so special and need to be coached by him, that’s a reflection on his attitude and not their abilities. He would have probably torn out whatever hair he had post 1984 had he worked with Rafi or Mukesh.
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Shankar
February 11, 2023
Folks, lobbing Raja-bashing and HCIRFs bombs are easy ways to go down rat holes, so I’ll stay away from those, and request others to stay away from those as well (and personal attacks). I do find the comment by IR about SJ odd, but here is what I’ve been learning (in some work related mindfulness sessions about facts, inferences, assessments etc.)…that you only know 1/3 of the facts…usually there is 2/3rds that is still unknown.
Having said that, I’m not saying that Raja has the greatest character certificate around here, but I’d ask to consider a few things before throwing words like asshole around, which I find hugely disappointing, even though one is not reflecting on his skills. First off, this is an excerpt of an interview, and knowing that Raja is not the greatest communicator, he may have thought about different facets of a voice/tone etc., while making those comparisons, but might have blurted out “sumaar” while meaning something totally innocuous. It’s possible, but we don’t know. SJ is the singer that has sung the max songs for him, it wouldn’t be the case if he didn’t have a measure of respect for what she brought to the table. I’m sure you can find interviews where he is effusive in praise, for singers as well as prior composers and lyricists. One thing I do know is that he is not going to pretend and have a facade – he is going to say what he thinks, unlike many politically correct film industry folks. In that manner, TR is similar as well! 🙂
Now, the other charge about not acknowledging folks or being collaborative etc., think for a minute about his struggle. He came into the industry when he was probably 40 years old…with his background, upbringing etc., consider the struggle he must have gone through, the insults he must have borne, the kicks he must have gotten, as he struggled to get into the industry. One could say, that should perhaps, make him more conducive towards others, and perhaps rightly so. But I feel he feels his success is his own, he built his empire…and feels reluctant to share it. A lot of people, singers, directors, actors, producers and others benefited from him…I’m just trying to understand the 2/3rds that I don’t know before passing judgement on one of India’s greatest talents ever (and I know we are not talking about his music here)…but some modicum of respect is needed here! Karthik Raja has been reflecting on how little time they had with Raja, growing up…given how busy the man was in the 80s. It makes me think – what is this single minded drive that this man must possess to conquer it all, even sacrificing his family life…what goaded him at that time? Sure, his love and skill for music…but at the cost? Was it his struggle that drove him this far? He did not have the benefits of most of our upbringing (I’m generalizing here, apologize)…I’m not passing judgement here, just trying to understand him and 2/3rds that I don’t know.
And Baddy, true to form and I’ve said this before, I don’t really see a point with what you were saying. There is nobody that one can count as prolific, and has only made incredible stuff…in any career! IR is prolific, but has made ordinary music too, so what? What is the point here? There is always a “but”…when it comes to IR. Sorry!
Finally for anyone listening pleasure, I’ve been following Sikkil Gurucharan’s blog (what a singer, and what control!)…where he tries to add context, demystify where possible…but couple of recent ones centered on IR just shows that the man is on a different level, when it comes to understanding the film art form…and how he adds subtext with his music. Not saying there aren’t others, just appreciating what IR brings to the table. Enjoy!
Part 1:
Part 2:
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brangan
February 11, 2023
Shankar: but here is what I’ve been learning (in some work related mindfulness sessions about facts, inferences, assessments etc.)…that you only know 1/3 of the facts…usually there is 2/3rds that is still unknown.
But that is not how the internet works, right? People with strong opinions ARE going to argue in strong ways. How can you expect “respect” and “decorum” only in a Vani Jairam thread when there’s none in the other threads – given the various ages and personalities of the commenters?
(Personally, I am not the greatest Vani fan, but like Vijay said, she sang spectacular songs for MSV. But a thread celebrating her has veered off into S Janaki and what not. Again, that is how the Internet works 🙂 )
Heck, forget Raja, even with the people around us, we usually know only the surface and we “judge” them based on that and not by the “2/3rds that is still unknown”.
Surely this cannot come as a surprise in 2023!!! 🙂
PS: As for my “but”, my peeve with Raja’s fans (and the random articles that are written about him) has always been the mythos that has been created around him. His genius lies in his music, and not in his prolificity or the (patently) false claim that until he came along, Tamilians were listening only to Hindi film songs. An additional peeve is that his fans act as though there was no one before him, and no one after him.
My point about “prolificity” is that I seriously do not care if Raja recorded two songs a day or five songs a day. What matters is how many of these songs are (IMO) “good songs”. If he recorded five songs and even one of them is a gem, then that is enough proof of his genius. And this he has done over and over. Genius. Period. The proof is in that pudding, that single gem of a song.
The fact that he made those other four songs is just trivia — like the anecdote that he composed the music of CHINNA THAMBI in half a day or something. As a purely physical feat, this is amazing — but as musicianship, it does not mean much to me (again, IMO) because none of the songs work for me.
(Yes, you can say they were blockbuster hits, but then we can only speak from the POV of our individual tastes, right? What can I say? From 1991, I think the music+BGM of GUNA >>>>>> THALAPATHY. But hey, that’s me 🙂 )
Again, to each their own, but if I don’t talk about (okay, vent about) such things occasionally on my own blog, then where? 🙂
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Madan
February 11, 2023
” First off, this is an excerpt of an interview, and knowing that Raja is not the greatest communicator, he may have thought about different facets of a voice/tone etc., while making those comparisons, but might have blurted out “sumaar” while meaning something totally innocuous. It’s possible, but we don’t know.” – This wasn’t an interview. It was an answer to a question in the Ilayarajavai Kelungal series that ran on Kumudam a few years back. So spontaneous combustion as a justification doesn’t really work here. Besides, and I am coming to that, it’s in keeping with his track record…
“SJ is the singer that has sung the max songs for him, it wouldn’t be the case if he didn’t have a measure of respect for what she brought to the table.” – But (a) he did say in the Shamitabh interview that his songs would be hits no matter who sang them so that tells you exactly how much value he attaches to the particular singer who he gave the song to, at least publicly. (b) he has repeatedly blasted the musicians he worked with for their incompetence when it must have simply been hard for them to keep up at his pace.
The difference between you (or other self-styled HCIRFs) and me is I am comfortable acknowledging the caustic side of his nature and expressing my dislike of it, knowing that that’s not going to make the slightest difference to my enjoyment of his music. If you believe in separating art from the artist, as I do, then it shouldn’t matter what people’s opinions are about the person behind the art.
Re prolificity, I am in the middle of your and BR’s views. I think it would be rather extreme to suggest prolificity does not matter AT ALL. But it does not matter in the manner in which it is suggested in IR’s case. That is, it does not matter how FAST he recorded a song or completed a re-recording. But that on so many occasions, he was able to deliver stellar output working at that speed. It’s not just Chinna Thambi that he delivered in record time but Mouna Raagam too. And it’s staggering to think someone could have completed the music of Mouna Raagam in three days working at that speed. And where that ultimately matters is it leaves us with many more great albums and great songs compared to other composers. BECAUSE the speed in his case was only a function of high productivity and not him resorting to shortcuts to get the work done (though this sort of began to happen at last in the early 90s). Unlike BR, I like the Chinna Thambi songs but when the intro of Poothathu Poonthoppu blatantly sounds like a reworking of that of Povoma Oorvolam, it’s irritating for me. And there are many such instances of template rural songs in that 90-93 phase.
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Shankar
February 11, 2023
Baddy, you are right….this is 2023, and shouldn’t come as a surprise. Maybe I’m old school and this sort of stuff ticks me off, about anyone not just Raja. We can all be arm chair critics without any effort to go beyond the surface, I guess….which then speaks to the society we live in. I see it, and don’t like it one bit. But that’s just me, can’t impose that on anyone…though I consider many contributors on this blog to be very erudite and true connoisseurs, so my disappointment comes through when comments such are thrown around.
Secondly going by your original comment on prolificity, nobody can be considered prolific then if every output has to be fabulous. One might think Sachin or Federer to be prolific…but they have had bad games, blown big matches….do they have to win everything to be considered prolific by your logic? It’s only natural that with a composer this spontaneous, there is bound to be some inane output as well, if the well is not brimming that day, the output is going to be bad….especially since those compositions are not revised and tweaked over months. IMO, that doesn’t make him any less prolific….
And finally, on the aspect of fans and myths, look in the mirror….has that made you biased in a way where you are compelled to add a “but” every time….if so, it’s a pity. The man didn’t pay anyone or goad anyone to write stuff about him….it’s not his fault that his fans resort to such things, though I must point out there are a number of them doing some brilliant analysis of his work. Vent about his fans, why keep pulling him down every time?
PS: You have every right to have your views on anything, I do respect that and am aware of that.
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Madan
February 11, 2023
“Maybe I’m old school and this sort of stuff ticks me off, about anyone not just Raja. ” – That’s good to hear because on the HCIRF forum, it was de rigueur to dub ARR a PR creation. Nobody here has questioned IR’s talent.
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vijay
February 11, 2023
this actually sounded like a compliment to me not a putdown. That despite SJ’s limitations with her voice(not exactly God’s own voice) she more than made it up with her singing skills. Seems like a frank musical appraisal than a putdown. Has IR ever said Yesudoss’s voice is ‘sumaar” or TMS’s or P susheela’s? (this in spite of the fact that he was’nt in the best of terms with TMS) , so why only about SJ? maybe because he honestly felt that way. I don’t see anything to get outraged about. He maybe could have avoided ‘sumaar'(which sounds blunt) and could have instead said something like “maybe SJ may not have had the greatest of voices, but she more than compensated it with her singing skills”..but then that’s not a big crime in my books. Like I said, I can give you a long list of things to ourage about IR, this would’nt even make it to my Top 10 🙂
MSV on SPB ” SPB’kku swara gnaayaaname kidayaadhu.aana grasping power jaasthi” (translates to “SPB has no knowledge of notes, but his ability to grasp tunes was peerless and he could reproduce exactly what I had in mind”). I wonder if that makes MSV a self-important jerk too for giving SPB such a back-handed compliment..
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Madan
February 11, 2023
“MSV on SPB ” SPB’kku swara gnaayaaname kidayaadhu.aana grasping power jaasthi”” – No, this is different because it is well known that SPB was untrained. That’s not even close to saying somebody had limited natural talent. You can play down the implications by saying things like not exactly God’s own voice but the point stands – SJ doesn’t even have an unconventional, harsh voice like Ila Arun. Where does the notion that her voice isn’t that great even come from? And the man saying this let Jency murder many of his exquisite compositions, let’s remember that.
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vijay
February 11, 2023
IR’s choice of singers, male or female is another contentious topic..why he chose certain singers to sing his songs like that of Mano/Jency or whoever is best left to him for explanation(could be anything from lack of availability of his main singers to him really liking those voices for some reason). But here, he has given a precise musical appraisal of SJ’s voice and singing. He thinks the world of her singing skills, ability to grasp a tune and all that but does’nt think that her voice was that great. He has’nt said the same about SPB or KJY(atleast not yet) or PS so I give the benefit of doubt to him and take it as HIS take on ONLY SJ’s voice, nothing more. I would be more outraged if IR had said “SJ was just another singer who happened to sing my peerless tunes..it was my tunes which made her” or something along those lines..but here it looks like he was really paying her a compliment. For SJ fans it may seem a little backhanded but I prefer this honesty to empty praises where he simply praised all aspects of a singer sky-high just to sound politically correct or humble. That does’nt mean I may agree with his take, but it’s HIS take at the end of the day. And this is art.
If IR had said Jency’s voice was the greatest thing since sliced bread I would vehemently disagree with him but not get outraged.
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Madan
February 11, 2023
Well again, nobody is saying IR isn’t free to his opinion. Only that likewise we are free to react to it. Why is this so hard to get?
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musical v
February 11, 2023
Has anybody said that IR is not a very great composer but only a very skilful composer? That may answer that sumar comment. Natural gift and skill cant be separated. Skill can be acquired but it shines brightly only when there is natural gift to complement it. Sumar is an insulting term. Payasam pramadama irrukku versus payasam sumara irukku. It is a put down.
Instead of defending the indefensible, just forgive IR and move on!
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vijay
February 11, 2023
musical v, like I said, you can disagree with his take. But getting all outraged about it and questioning his character or calling him names etc is getting a bit overboard IMO..but thats a typical fan reaction so I can understand. Anything short of absolute praise is not acceptable.
They even miss the fact that ‘sumaar’ was only for the voice but not the singing, the grasping power etc..while Swarnalatha may have a great voice IR has never said her ‘singing skills’ was great or on par with SJ or PS..you can make a distinction between the two, believe me.
KJY may have a flawless voice as per consensus opinion but his playback singing, emotiveness and the value he added to exuberant romantic duets has always been a contentious topic amongst serious music fans..I am not sure why this is hard to get.
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Madan
February 11, 2023
Don’t deflect. We’re not taking about KJY here but SJ. And the issue isn’t about IR expressing an opinion about XYZ singer but about a singer he worked with more often than anyone else. If it was a question of him communicating poorly and getting misconstrued, he would have clarified it in the next instalment of Ilayarajavai Kelungal. He did not so I have to take it that he meant every word. SJ is NOT a singer of limited talent. Even as a pure musical opinion, it is a controversial thing to suggest but for the composer who gave her so many songs IS an unkind cut.
Nobody asked why he didn’t rate her above Lata or Asha. I don’t for that matter though I do think she went to some places they wouldn’t have. So this is not about asking for nothing less than the highest praise but pointing out that IR was rude. And it’s not the first time so it’s hardly novel to point this out.
As for calling him asshole, he sued one of his closest friends for royalty. Need I say more? I didn’t use that word, KayKay did but pl tell me where’s the lie. I respect his work as a musician, but you cannot demand that people must be respectful even when discussing the bad aspects of public figured. An extreme example but it will help make my point: would you object about Harvey Weinstein being called an asshole?
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Jailer Vikram
February 11, 2023
@Shankar: The reason I mentioned that comment by Raja about Janaki (and then created an isai-puyal here) was because I couldnt shake it off from my memory. Trust me when I say my memory & retention power have become very poor in the last decade or so. But idha marakka mudiyala.
Raja will always be my favourite music director, my playlist will always have his songs at the top. Yet even if he walks past me, I wont be able to muster the courage to say Vanakkam. That’s his vibe. I used to live in the building right behind his house for like 20+ years. Have never caught a glimpse of him outside his high-walled white-o-white bungalow. Thats his personality too. White (no black/grey allowed) & high-walled and I choose not to judge/criticise it. Avaruku mattum exemption (ok, for Kamal too, but that’s for another day, for another digressed thread)
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vijay
February 11, 2023
did IR ever say SJ was a sumaar singer? NO. Then whats the issue here..
you can have a great voice but limited dexterity/grasping power. On the other hand you can have a not-so-great voice(in terms of range, shrillness, pleasant timbre etc etc) but can do tremendous things with it because of how you have trained or cultured it..Very few have both..it is his opinion that SJ overcame any limitations of her voice with her emotive ability. I find that to be a perfect musical appraisal, not intended to be a putdown. I may disagree/agree with his take but thats another issue.
and how come he has’nt said that SPb’s or KJY’s voices are sumaar in any instance? or P susheela’s? He has worked a lot with them too. maybe he has some personal beef against SJ? or maybe, just maybe, he really thinks that she made up for her voice with her singing?
(As for IR displaying his assholiness I myself have talked elsewhere about the way a security guard was put on the spot by him in a live concert for stepping in to hand over water bottles. Now thats something you cant argue with, as the evidence exists in plain sight.)
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Madan
February 11, 2023
“maybe he has some personal beef against SJ?” – In which case, that would be the subtle putdown we are saying it is, no? I am really confused now about what your objection exactly is. If he has an axe to grind and decides to vent it in a passive-aggressive way, we can’t call it out for some reason? Even if I accept that the comment by itself doesn’t make him an asshole, you do concede he has given enough reasons in the past to earn that sobriquet. So why are we splitting hairs over this? IR said something nasty. Maybe not phenomenally nasty by his standards but given his track record, he gets less benefit of doubt than someone else might and that’s fair.
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vijay
February 11, 2023
well it is not MY belief that he has personal beef against SJ and that he said it with malicious intent, but that seems to be what some of the others have assumed here. His reputation taking precedence with some of the folks here. My take is the latter, that “maybe, just maybe, he really thinks that she made up for her voice with her singing”
anyways I found a nice one-minute video for whatever its worth that validates what I exactly thought IR was doing with SJ. Commending her on her singing abilities, while noting her voice may not have been her strong suite.
He clearly says(lossely translated) ‘regardless of how the voice is, its the ability to grasp what the MD wants which is important to me and that’s why I have used her a lot’..as frank an appraisal as you can get. And consistent with what he said in that tamil magazine interview earlier.
This should put to rest that he was’nt exactly trying to be a jerk.
In fact in the 80s ‘keechu kural’ was used in the context of SJ’s voice often. Many referred to her as ‘keechu kural’ janaki(meaning shrill voice). you can even google up keechu kural and janaki, you may get a few dozen hits. So the unanimity in opinion with regard to her emotive abilities was’nt there when it came to her voice.
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vijay
February 11, 2023
in fact a better translation of what he said would be ” the fact that I gave her a lot of sings to sing is because of her ability to grasp tunes more than her voice..voice is’nt that important to me, I give more weightage to the ability to intuitively grasp what the MD wants”..
I dont see any malice here, just a precise appraisal.
In fact TMS was downright nasty with IR in his early days and putting IR down even in a public functios and yet IR has always had only good things to say about TMS’s voice, which tells me that he really liked TMS’s voice as a composer..in an interview with SPB he said he considers only TMS’s voice as absolutely masculine and SPB responds “so where does that leave the rest of us” and mimics a lady voice and both of them laugh..its still there in youtube..
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Kannaa
February 11, 2023
கவியரசருக்கும் வாணி ஜெயராம் அவர்களுக்கும் இடையே அற்புதமான (தந்தை-மகள்) பந்தம் இருந்தது. நேற்று, வாணிக்கான தனது அஞ்சலியில், கவியரசர் மகன் அண்ணாதுரை கண்ணதாசன், அவரது யூட்யூப் channel-ல் இதை பற்றி “கண்ணன் கோயில் பறவைக்ககு அஞ்சலி” என்ற தலைப்பில் பதிவு செய்துள்ளார். கவியரசரின் வரிகளுக்கும், MSVயின் இசையமைப்புக்கும், இதோ வாணி ஜெயராம் பாடிய வேறொரு பாடல்…
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KayKay
February 11, 2023
vijay, first off, stop saying “ourage”.
Outrage onnum illa…just irritation at this arrogant douchebag for his terminal case of condescension for anything that isn’t the brilliant product of his own creation. The fact that he could include Bhavatharini in the list of “unique” voices says it all. Yeah…uniquely mediocre!
And you seem to be bending over backwards to justify and contextualize the “summaar” comment. It is a Tamil word, a language Raja is very fluent in. So as Madan pointed out, he could have communicated that in a better way. But he didn’t, because in his own way it was a validation of that Shamitabh comment Madan mentioned where as far as he’s concerned, any singer would sound good singing HIS compositions. And this justification that “Oh, but you know he did work with SJ a lot so doesn’t that say something” sounds like the same kind of “Tough Love” rationalizing bullshit people say to excuse undemonstrative parenting. “Daddy only ever talked to you to criticize and find fault but you know he walked you to school everyday?? Doesn’t that say something”. Yeah it does. It still says to me, Daddy is a cold jerk.
And yes, I fully understand that you think there’s a whole bunch of other stuff we should be getting “outraged” about Raja. This, to me , is like arguing Raja’s Top 5 songs. YOUR Top 5 isn’t going to be MY Top 5. You think this sumaar comment is one big nothingburger, I think it’s a rude and condescending comment enough to trigger my irritation, but not “outrage”.
Yeah, it’s Raja’s opinion and he’s entitled to that.
I get to call him out, and I’m entitled to that.
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Honest Raj
February 11, 2023
KJY may have a flawless voice as per consensus opinion but his playback singing, emotiveness and the value he added to exuberant romantic duets has always been a contentious topic amongst serious music fans..
Even Kamal once said (the discussion was not about film music though) something to the effect that, while KJY is a great singer, he doesn’t belong in the same league as MS.
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KayKay
February 11, 2023
And vijay…regarding the video you posted, around the 0:38 mark he mentions (and anybody feel free to correct my translation) that he says “voice isn’t important, only the ability to understand the composers intent”. So…sure, you can say, in Raja’s “inimitable roundabout tough love way” he was saying he appreciated SJ’s ability to grasp what his composition was about while not necessarily thinking she had a great voice. Or, one can also, in the context of other statements he has made, interpret that he doesn’t consider a singer a pivotal component for a song’s success, merely a delivery mechanism for his amazing compositions (and by that, I once again reiterate for the 100th time, am NOT knocking the man’s compositions, many many many of which are fucking brilliant)
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Honest Raj
February 11, 2023
Although Janaki was an established singer across all South Indian languages, Raja revitalised her career in Tamil (PS and VJ were the default choices for both MSV and SG back then). Three of her four National Awards came under Raja’s baton.
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KayKay
February 11, 2023
And Shankar….it was my intent not to respond to your comments given that both B and Madan have rebutted your points in a far more articulate and coherent way than I ever could, but since one of the things that got your panties all twisted was Raja being called an asshole, well, you can lay that one entirely on ole’ KayKay’s doorstep. I was the only one who used that word. And you know what? I stand by it.
And yes, of course you’re not going to know a celebrity intimately unless you live with them or are their best friend and confidante or something. So all you have to go on are their words and actions captured on print or film.
In many of his interviews, Raja comes across as arrogant, mean-spirited, ungracious and condescending. Me calling him an “asshole” wasn’t just for the SJ “sumaar” comment but for a string of such behavior. This is a man who after winning the national award for Best Composer made a remark about how ppl shouldn’t call some music directors “composers”. Because….he’s the only true composer??? vijay has already mentioned that infamous clip where he chewed out a poor security guard on stage for bringing his orchestra some water, then turned to the audience and said he didn’t want to keep them waiting because “after all, aren’t they living on his songs?”. He then threw another shitfit when he won the National Award “only” for best Background score and berated the jury for not awarding him for the songs in Thaarai Thappattai as well. Gangai Amaran rightly retorted later that his songs in the film were derivative of some of his earlier compositions. He also put Maragathamani (Keeravani) on the spot in a stage show by asking him to identify ragas in some of his compositions, the better to assert his own knowledge of them. And finally, as Madan pointed out, he sued his best friend and one of the finest singers to have ever breathed life into his many hundred compositions for royalties (rumor has it, he was peeved SPB couldn’t give him dates for a worldwide concert tour he was planning).
So all of the above…text book “Asshole” behavior, no?
I separate the art from the artist.
I will forever cherish what their gifts have given us while retaining the right to chastise them for uncharitable conduct.
And please….let’s not use that hoary old chestnut about how he himself was treated badly and stepped on as he was coming up and that probably made him bitter and cynical…and…boo fucking hoo. Cry me a river. He has ascended to levels untouchable by many of his peers. He’s carved his name on the rock of Indian film Music and will be celebrated and studied for years and years on top of having his music be discovered and appreciated by every new generation. So…a little graciousness isn’t asking for too much, especially since many many many of his peers endured similar hardships to get to where they are today and don’t feel the need to be…sorry…here it comes again…assholes.
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hari prasad
February 11, 2023
When did this Vani Jayram tribute page suddenly became an Ilaiyaraja roast session?
I thought you were all happily sharing some excellent rare songs from the mid 70s to the early 80s for us Gen Z Kids to listen , judging by the sudden rise in the number of comments…
Peace out guys…
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Madan
February 11, 2023
I AM prepared to let this one go now, based on what IR says in the interview. I maintain that the way he worded it in his Ilayaraja Kelungal answer was much harsher, at least more liable to be construed as a subtle dig. But this is a more erudite assessment. As a singer possessed of maybe 1/100th the voice or ‘theramai’ of SJ, I do agree that the ability to interpret a composition, to understand what the composer wants is more important than the voice itself. In a roundabout way, it explains his preference for SJ over Chitra.
I don’t really buy the keechu kural characterization. I am aware of it but it was an uninformed critique. A lot of people who say these kind of things don’t understand that Indian composers have a thing for making female singers sing way too high. You give SJ a song in a more comfortable range like Ooru Sanam and she doesn’t sound shrill. Same with Chitra. She sounds terrific on Maharajanodu but then at that pitch, Unni struggles to make an impact as it’s too low for him. If someone sounds keechu high up, it’s the composer’s responsibility to adjust the key. But our composers have tended to only keep the male singers’ tessitura in mind, not their female counterparts.
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Madan
February 12, 2023
I recall ravenus was looking for good remasters of Kamagni songs? Found a brand new one for Main Hasin:
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hari prasad
February 12, 2023
Ilaiyaraaja has composed an awareness song for the women helpline number that has lyrics written by Pa.Vijay , sung by Yuvan , shot by Santhosh Sivan and is directed by Kiruthiga Udhayanidhi , this song has a lot of Yuvan influences like the heavy usage of the electric guitar , synthesized voice etc…
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hari prasad
February 12, 2023
It isn’t a song composed for the women’s helpline number..
It is an awareness song for the child abuse helpline number….
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Ravi
February 12, 2023
“When did this Vani Jayram tribute page suddenly became an Ilaiyaraja roast session?
I thought you were all happily sharing some excellent rare songs from the mid 70s to the early 80s for us Gen Z Kids to listen , judging by the sudden rise in the number of comments…”
Thanks Hari prasad for reminding us of the real purpose of this thread.
Here are some lesser known solos and duets of Vani:
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Shankar
February 12, 2023
Folks, all I was trying to do was offer a view that there could be more to it, and let’s not jump into judgement…again for a mature discussion. And of course, I do feel that people like him deserve a modicum of respect, and that’s just me. I’ve heard numerous stories of Lata destroying careers, preventing singers from entering the industry, and being haughty with folks, but I’d never ever say Lata was a bitch…but again that’s just me.
KayKay, my intention was never to single you out, I’d never do that. You are a long term contributor of the blog and I enjoy your opinions, and I respect that. Which is why I mentioned this in more generic terms than calling you out. I’m sorry if you felt aggrieved by it.
Madan, this is exact thing I want to avoid…personal attacks, slotting me as a HCIRF….you really know nothing about me, I was just trying to offer a 2/3rd unknown sort of view and engage in a discussion. Can’t we even consider what I said for a discussion? Do I need to be slotted into some club? Again, I’ve always liked your musical interpretations, even have a copy of your book.
And for the SPB issue, there is more to it than you guys probably know. These issues started when he was touring the US…I was working with the organizers. Again I don’t really want to go into it, the man is gone…and let it be. There were others involved that created the whole issue.
I seriously don’t have the energy (nor interest) to wage war here folks…I’ve been a participant here since 2007…I’m not here nowadays as much as you all are…I do read the reviews, and comments but perhaps should keep my views to private conversations with BR, than put it out here. Apologies if I offended anyone, peace out! I sincerely mean it…
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Honest Raj
February 12, 2023
Naan kaettadhu:
Avar (YT) suggest pannadhu:
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Madan
February 12, 2023
Shankar: First things first, thank you for buying and reading my book.
I am sorry if you took what I said as a personal attack; that was not my intention. I remember that when I wrote the Atho Mega Oorvolam RWI, you characterized it as trying to get views by inciting controversy (never mind that most of the controversy was stirred up by offended IR fans). Nevermind that you don’t know me, you don’t know that I was writing almost on a daily basis for cricketcountry back in 2010-11 and passed over an opportunity to write full time on cricket partially because the kind of articles (like silly spoofs) that I was expected to write for clicks didn’t appeal to me and partially because it would have meant following the IPL fulltime (which I have no interest in doing)! Trust me, if I wanted to write for clicks, I could have done a zillion things differently but that didn’t stop you from suggesting what you did, did it? Because you reacted to the part of me that was out in the public.
So…along the same lines, the thing about unknown 2/3rds is not so much opening up a discussion as it is a discussion-ender. Ilayaraja is a public figure and we WILL judge him based off his public statements. If that leads to misconstruing what kind of person he is, we request his handlers to convey that message to him. But, not only in the case of IR but any celebrity, they are judged by their public statements and deeds. Just as you made your conclusions about me based off one article (an article, by the way, which didn’t even say anything particularly negative about IR but instead targeted the kind of boring films and song situations he was working on in the 90s).
Now….coming to why I called you an HCIRF…because the only times I have seen you get argumentative or defensive are indeed when his name comes up. And certainly NOT when HCIRFs pile it on gleefully on Rahman. Now why that is is not for me to say; I can, again, only state what I observed and comment on it. Either you join the ranks of the equal opportunity offended or you don’t take it upon yourself to fight Raja’s battles and his alone.
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vijay
February 12, 2023
KayKay I can see why a SJ fan get upset( ‘sumaar’ could have been expressed differently) . I am a big SJ fan too. But all I was trying to do was point out that in THIS particular instance, lets not allow IR’s reputation take precendence and allow it to cloud our judgement. You have to piece all the evidences together-> his consistent praise for SJ’s emotive abilities, his consistent take on why her voice was’nt her strongest suite and his continuous admiration and his reasoning on yet why he used her the most..Its a precise musical appraisal by a MD of his calibre, take it or leave it for whatever its worth. And this comment on voice, he has made ONLY with regard to SJ(amongst his top singers), like a qualifier, which convinced me that he really thought of her that way.
“Or, one can also, in the context of other statements he has made, interpret that he doesn’t consider a singer a pivotal component for a song’s success, merely a delivery mechanism for his amazing compositions ”
I dont know how you would conclude that from the one-minute video I posted. Its a HUGE extrapolation. He may have made such statements in other interviews in a different context but not here. When he considers a singer’s ability to grasp a tune as pivotal how could they be mere delivery mechanisms. Yes, I am aware he has made such a comment in some other interview in the past in a different context. But when asked to evaluate/rate a particular singer, he gives precise answers.
With IR, in an interview, I have noticed that usually if you keep your questions pertinent and focused on just the musical aspects and not let him veer off(difficult task i admit) you usually tend to get precise answers.
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vijay
February 12, 2023
and even w.r.t Bhavatharini, as miffed as I am that he decided to dole out songs to her, I feel he really thinks her voice is unique in some way..he did’nt say her voice was ‘great’ but just unique(which could simply mean that her voice was’nt quite like many of the other singers who sang for him, nothing more) .. I would be curious to know why, but it would be difficult to get an answer from him because interviewers usually don’t get to go that far with him..
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vijay
February 12, 2023
To get things back on track a bit(and I am guilty of some digression here), here’s a favourite of mine from Unnai naan sandithen, a delectable KJY-VJ duet
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Shankar
February 12, 2023
Madan, first off, I don’t recall the article you are referring to, but if I did say that you were writing for clicks, then it is wrong on my part. Also, I’d fully agree with you about 90s songs and films he worked on…there is no argument there. His career was dipping and he wasn’t getting interesting projects…and maybe he was getting complacent, bored, well drying up…any of those reasons as well.
Coming to the HCIRF part, it’s not that I’ve had engagement only when his name comes up…I can at least recall spirited discussions on Malayalam films as an example. In any case, I always seek some balance in these discussions, which I sometimes find lacking in the case of Raja. No body seems to even mention that he has helped many a producer/director when they are starting off (P.Vasu, Dennis Joseph etc. come to mind), or many of the other things he has done to help, utmost respect he has publicly shown towards MSV and other legend composers etc. That also should count along with all the other things mentioned, right? Again, just a few instances…so all I seek for a balance in the discussion. I would say this with any personality, not just him.
PS: I’m a huge fan of Rahman, as well, just for the record. The days I would rush off to buy the Magnasound cassettes as soon as they released, during the early 90s, are still vivid in my memory.
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Madan
February 12, 2023
“there is no argument there. His career was dipping and he wasn’t getting interesting projects…and maybe he was getting complacent, bored, well drying up…any of those reasons as well.” – Well, then, we agree now whatever may have been the divergences then. So it’s all good.
I don’t necessarily disagree with you on balance but I’d simply say: it’s the internet. We are not presenting academic dissertations on his behaviour. Or anyone else. There are going to be reactions about that one thing. I don’t think people in general deny the favours he has done to producers and directors or indeed that he was absolutely unimpeachable and more than in his conduct towards MSV. If there are people who do deny it, I’d take it up with them.
Also having worked previously under an extremely toxic boss who thought nothing about inflicting monetary harm on employees but who did also show empathy when I least expected it from him, people are complex. So a person CAN be an asshole in some ways and an angel in others. And the two sides don’t cancel out each other; they just exist uneasily, like Jekyll & Hyde. A retired IG in Chennai once told me about how in his interactions with the late Bal Thackeray, he had found him to be an amicable person. Sure, I don’t pretend that that mustn’t have happened. But that doesn’t cancel out all his baying for ‘outsiders” blood from Shivaji Park and calling upon ‘Sainiks’ to beat them up. I don’t think even the worst excesses of Raja would compare to that but they do still exist and cannot be wished away.
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Jayram
February 12, 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_wp4JV8bos – w/ Kishore
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brangan
February 13, 2023
Jayram: Wow, thanks for that. Never heard it.
vijay: From the same time period, some memories:
(‘Ulagam muzhthum’ was the more popular song and I like it more, but this is the song where Raja changes Van’s voice texture a bit)…
This is Vani in Raja’s sensuous mode:
And this one (though I like it more for SPB owning MSV’s sangati-s like a boss; his portions give me so much joy):
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hari prasad
February 13, 2023
Adhellame nalla paattunga dhan but adhaye thirumba thirumba kettutu irukama innum Ilayaraaja oda music ah deep ah explore pannunga…
#avlodhan
Saw a meme about these new gen Ilaiyaraja fans and I instantly got reminded of Baddy’s polambal when people say their favorite Ilayaraaja song is Thendral Vandhu Theendum Bodhu or Kanne Kalaimaane , so shared it here.
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vijay
February 13, 2023
the link didnt show up BR. i am assuming you meant the urugudhe song? somewhat on similiar lines as thanimayil yaar ivaL from azhage unnai aaradhikkiren..but a different mood, a bit eerie and all that..
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musical v
February 13, 2023
About manly voices. Interesting observation by raja.
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anonymousviolin20
February 13, 2023
Though the meme hari prasad posted did get a chuckle out of me, and though I would not slot myself as someone who only listens to only the 5 or 10 “major” Ilaiyaraja songs, memes like that also do kinda rub me the wrong way.
Gatekeeping, and deciding how much of a “fan” someone is, is probably the worst thing you can do to someone who’s getting into whatever you like. Unless your enjoyment of said thing is determined of course by the fact that you are “better” for enjoying it, in which case, please carry on.
Also, does anyone have a link to that interview where Raja talks about masculine voices? And as an aside, what is it that makes said voices masculine? Being a baritone? The power/projection? Curious how some of y’all would rate various playback singers on that aspect.
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Madan
February 14, 2023
I do have an allergy to never ending odes to Kanne Kalaimane and Thenpandi. And a good deal of it because it’s sorta like celebrating Raja for not being Raja – for not trying to be subversive, not trying to fit in multiple layers that miraculously resolve, not bamboozling you with seemingly a thousand notes per second. Seriously, if people wanted thathva paadal, MSV with Kannadasan’s words did so much better.
I don’t like gatekeeping of fandom indeed. But there are also fans who are very comfortable knowing just these few songs. Now, that’s not a problem as such because there’s no rule that you HAVE to explore so much of the composer’s music. But then, you try to tell them you don’t like Thenpandi so much and they get either outraged or amused, as if the problem is me not knowing my Raja.
On similar lines, I remember way back when as an articled assistant, I had for company a guy who really didn’t listen to much Western music at all. Somebody shared with him a dance remix of Kenny G’s Havana and he played it. I mean, to begin with, it’s Kenny G, adhukku mela remix version vera, suttam. I didn’t say ewww but my face said so and he was like, “You have no taste for music, how can you not appreciate such beautiful music?” I was like, wellll… where do I even begin. See, I don’t have a problem if you want to be a frog in the well and content to be so but you are so welled-in you can’t even acknowledge the possibility of another way of going about it and you think somebody who doesn’t fit into your reality is crazy, snobbish etc etc etc.
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musical v
February 14, 2023
I prefer a bit soft, velvety voice than purely manly voice for some situations. P.B.Srinivas, A.M.Raja, SPB, Jesudas, Dr. Rajkumar from the south. Hemant Kumar, Talat, Rafi, Sonu Nigam and others. For romantic songs, manly voice does not suit much imo. For melancholy moods, the the serious voice may suit. TMS, Ghantasala, Mukesh.
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hari prasad
February 14, 2023
It didn’t feel like a gatekeeping post but I think the meme (creator) is asking people to explore more of Ilayaraaja than just listening to those songs repeatedly.
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Madan
February 14, 2023
“For romantic songs, manly voice does not suit much imo.” – Mostly, with the notable exception being Kishore. And of course, Kishore wouldn’t fit for delicate romance like Tu Kamsi Ho or Enna Satham for a Tamil equivalent. SPB was phenomenal that way in straddling every slot in film singing – from the aggro on Ilamai Itho Itho to the rustic on Chinna Mani to the delicate.
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hari prasad
February 14, 2023
And he can also sing in a very coarse way like he did in this song where he sang like M.R. Radha:
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hari prasad
February 14, 2023
Like Sid Sriram / Anirudh of today , SPB was present in almost every Tamil movie soundtrack from the mid 70s till the late 90s but unlike them , SPB would do something with his voice that would differentiate itself from the other songs..
He won’t sing the same way for a Rajinikanth song like he would sing a Kamal song , which Sid or Anirudh doesn’t do that often and it results in fatigue or the sameness in the songs they croon.
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musical v
February 14, 2023
Kishore Kumar crooned many romantic songs in his inimitable way. I feel ek ladki bheegi bhaagi si is one of his somewhat soft songs. I liked his version of khilte hai gul yahan from Sharmeelee. Rafi was versatile. From softest songs, silly songs to the most sad songs.
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KayKay
February 14, 2023
For romantic songs, manly voice does not suit much imo.
A theory that simply doesn’t hold up for Western Crooners. Guys with “manly pipes” like Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, Low Rawls, Nat King Cole and that most baritone-est of singers, Barry White, sang some of the most romantic ballads.
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Madan
February 15, 2023
Ek Ladki is soft-ish but basically not velvet soft like Rafi could be. That’s ok because they both had different strengths. You couldn’t have had Rafi do Mere Sapno Ki Rani, as simple as that song sounds.
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Madan
February 15, 2023
I don’t find Western baritone crooners particularly romantic but I do like Elvis and he was baritone. Baritone is just where the voice sits and the romance comes out of expression which can be either innate or acquired through craft.
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Madan
February 15, 2023
Also, Engelbert gets there for me on What I Did For Love. By far my favourite version of the song, the typical theatrical versions of it leave me cold:
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KS
February 15, 2023
@Madan:
I (KS/Kadakumar) didn’t back off, the discussion had veered into the subjectivity of music and possible ways of statistically measuring Ilayaraja’s hit rate to resolve this. All I said was an opinion, that based on my sampling his music over a decade from various sources (cassettes, Sun Music, KTV films, interior townbuses, etc.), only around 100 or so songs of his (out of the many thousands) truly stand out, with the rest being lazy junk fillers. I still stand by that. What exact number did you want, and what use would that have been anyway, given subjectivity and all?
And there is no tinfoil conspiracy. I claimed that given he’s an asshole even in his rancid pruney old age when he’s been long cast aside as a has-been, imagine what a douche he could have been in his prime period when the industry was licking his feet. It was just speculation, made with sufficient disclaimers, that his prolonged success disproportionate to his consistency could have just been due to throwing his weight around and bullying everyone. Not hard to believe given his general nastiness.
I remember both @brangan and RothRocks valiantly defending Ilayaraja’s honor and dismissing me as a know-it-all millenial too immature to appreciate true genius. But now it looks like even @brangan pretty much agrees with my claim that Ilayaraja has an abysmal strike rate!
😀 Monkeys with typewriters printing out Shakespeare and all. 90s ARRahman for the win!
How long ago was this?
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Madan
February 16, 2023
“I (KS/Kadakumar) didn’t back off, the discussion had veered into the subjectivity of music and possible ways of statistically measuring Ilayaraja’s hit rate to resolve this. “” – Er, you did back off when you conceded the number could be substantially higher than 100 and you admitted the 100 was nothing but your own impression after initially trying to present it as a statistically derived number.
“It was just speculation, made with sufficient disclaimers, that his prolonged success disproportionate to his consistency could have just been due to throwing his weight around and bullying everyone.” – There were no ‘sufficient disclaimers’ except in your own head. You just flat out claimed he bullied people into giving assignments even if the music flopped. That is simply not how the industry works. A nepokid (that too, only if an actor) might get away with failing repeatedly but nobody is going to roll over for a composer whose music no longer delivers hits. The proof of this is in fact in how quickly producers and directors moved to viable alternatives once they became available in the form of Rahman, Vidyasagar, Deva etc. Rather, they could hardly wait to find someone else to work with but there simply wasn’t a better option by miles in the 80s. Even after delivering hit after hit in 1993 just like the old days, Raja’s assignments went down steeply in 1994 and never went back to the old run rate again. If somebody else could deliver a hit, they didn’t care anymore for his agmark assurance because he was so unpleasant to work with.
“But now it looks like even @brangan pretty much agrees with my claim that Ilayaraja has an abysmal strike rate!” – No, in fact he pegged the number at 500 great songs which is phenomenal. I am going to actually quote that part word-for-word lest you shamelessly resort to misconstruing his words:
“But that’s the point: even if Raja “only” made, say, 500 truly great cutting-edge songs, that’s still a phenomenal yardstick that needs no further “amplification”. The proof is in the pudding.”
I don’t know what it is about this topic that makes you want to even lie just to win an argument.
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KS
February 16, 2023
@Madan:
Sigh…
Umm, no, there was nothing to back down from. I had repeatedly made it clear that it was my opinion, though that was hardly needed to be repeated considering we’re talking about something subjective like music. Which is why the discussion digressed into what would be a statistically viable way of reliably measuring how many songs could be considered “good”.
100 was my rough estimate based on my sample and personal taste. I don’t know how many times in how many threads I need to stress on this! Besides, that number is less significant than the denominator, which is in several thousands, and that was my original point all along. That even if you’re generous in making it 300 or even 500, the strike rate would still be a paltry 1 in 15 or 20 songs being good. Hardly a worthy rate for someone thalalathukified as a genius, in my opinion. And this is what I was referring to in @brangan’s comment (made mostly in jest!), where he too concedes that even if its 500 songs, … as opposed to the prevailing sentiment in that old thread where you guys were acting like most of Ilayaraja music is great (whether a few great songs can make up for tons of bullshit is a different issue). I mean, whats there to “lie” or be “shameless”, and why do you get so rude and worked up about this? You give your armchair explanations and theories and made-up numbers, just as I did too. The part about bullying too was clearly just a theory I suggested (neither of us are insiders who know for sure).
Anyway, I think we said everything relevant to that issue in that thread itself, and would only be repeating ourselves. If you want to be an annoying lawyer about it, the thread is probably accessible, and you can waste your time and wade into it to prove me wrong if it makes you feel victorious. I only came by to say hi and briefly explain myself since my name was dragged here, and you were acting all cocky about it needlessly. It was so long ago, and I was mostly just amused on being reminded of it. Neeye correctu, happy? We can all concede that you know a lot about music, as you never fail to pathetically show off with your constant namedropping of every musician from every part of the world whatever be the topic discussed (shabbaaa, every single time, America-la Michael Jackson kooptago, Japan-la Jackie Chan kooptago…). Ennavo irundhutu po, but at least stop being a petty asshole in informal discussions which noone else seems to care about as much as you.
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Rahini David
February 16, 2023
In case someone wants to actually go through the thread they are talking about.
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Madan
February 16, 2023
“100 was my rough estimate based on my sample and personal taste. I don’t know how many times in how many threads I need to stress on this! Besides, that number is less significant than the denominator, which is in several thousands, and that was my original point all along. That even if you’re generous in making it 300 or even 500, the strike rate would still be a paltry 1 in 15 or 20 songs being good. ” –
100 is not even a rough estimate but a number plucked out of thin air. The fact that you are too vain to even concede this – that you think it is beneath you to actually tabulate the list of hits in some reliable way before declaring a legendary composer had a poor strike rate. If you don’t have the time to tabulate, that’s fine but then keep that opinion to yourself. If you state it in a blog, you’re going to get an argument. You call me a lawyer for giving you an argument that you wanted in the first place and then you talk about ‘rude’. The temerity!
This was already done the last time all those years ago when we debated this but whether or not you agree on 300, 500,1000, 100 is too low a number and this is easily disproved. Here: Mouna Ragam, Agni Natchatram, Punnagai Mannan, Ninaivellam Nithya, Nizhalgal, Payanangal Mudivathilai, Muthal Mariyathai, Thendrale Ennai Thodu, Nenjathai Killathe, Aboorva Sagotharargal, Amman Koil Kizhakaale, Kizhakku Vaasal, Chinna Thambi, Jhonny, Idhaya Koil, Keladi Kanmani, Naan Paadum Paadal, Anjali, Idhayathai Thirudathe. Tell me how many ‘non hit’ songs do these films have put together. That number is not more than the fingers of a hand. Prove me wrong. List the ones that aren’t hits, not just the ones that Kadakumar doesn’t like. Your liking or disliking is irrelevant to a song becoming a hit. I don’t like most of Anirudh’s work but I have never claimed he is using a TamBram movie mafia to get assignments. And the list above is just a very small sampling of the films he worked on and doesn’t even include well known commercially successful films/films with hit albums like Kaaki Chattai, Pannakaran, Rajathi Raja, Thambikku Entha Ooru, Puthu Kavithai. It doesn’t include a single Rama Raj film or Bhagyaraj film and leaves out many, many, many of the films he worked on that starred Kamal, Rajni, Mohan, Prabhu, Karthik or many of the films directed by Mahendran, Balu Mahendra, KB, Bharatiraja. Tabulate a reasonably comprehensive hit songs list and then get back to the debate.
500 is the number BR gave for great songs. He excluded ‘template songs’ being the ones that would be less fascinating. But that is completely irrelevant if you are talking about a ‘hit’ song. How many of Anirudh’s hits over the last ten years do you actually remember? Oh, wait, do you remember your beloved’s Mona Lisa from Romeo and other bandalbaaz songs? The number of HIT songs by Raja would be even higher than 500. More like 750-1000. Again, if that’s generous, prove me wrong. Either show the rigour or don’t get into that debate. But you can’t pluck a thin air town bus number and force it down our throats.
You say even 500 is too low a strike rate and likewise would be your position even if it was a 1000. But this again simply shows ignorance of how the film industry works. Raja was not making producers wait months or even a whole year for ‘puli paal’. He was turning over films in a week to ten days. So, in a market already flooded with his music for other films, he only needed to give a maximum of two hit songs in an entire album of five-six to ensure the audience would buy cassettes of the album or watch the film in theater to hear the songs. This was the reason why producers hired Raja – because people flocked to theaters just to hear the songs. And as BR carefully mentioned in the original article and which you vainly ignored, as usual, there was so much circulation of Raja’s music that radio stations couldn’t accommodate all of the songs from an album (even a great one like Keladi Kanmani). That is why people bought the albums or watched the film in theater, not because anybody made them to by pointing a gun to their head.
“I only came by to say hi and briefly explain myself since my name was dragged here, and you were acting all cocky about it needlessly.” – To put it more succinctly, Mr Kadakumar was aggrieved at the declaration of loss in the battle and came to contest the territory, believing Madan wouldn’t bother to write back this time and reserving the option of calling him lawerly, asshole etc if he does. Mister, nobody needs your permission to invoke your name in a discussion. This discussion wasn’t even about you until you decided to make it about yourself – by first taking the time to assiduously frame your protest and then with equal alacrity declaring you have no time for all this BS though you seemed to just a moment ago. Given that you inserted yourself in a discussion (rather than a debate) about Ilayaraja’s prolificity, it’s fairly clear who’s being a jerk about this.
One last time, you can’t pluck a number out of thin air and then protest (in exceedingly rude terms, I may add, like calling us monkeys with typewriters) if you get counter arguments. If you don’t have anything concrete to back up your way low number of 100, don’t volunteer an opinion nobody asked for. You talk about my supposedly name dropping bands but unlike you, I can construct an informed essay about every one of those bands. I don’t have a habit of spouting nonsense about things I don’t know. On the other hand, you’re so overcome by Raja-hate you want to desperately cling to a terribly low number that has been shown many times to you to be wrong. You are basically behaving like Pierro Scaruffi pretending Beatles were foisted on the music industry worldwide via some unexplained conspiracy.
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Enna koduka sir pera
February 16, 2023
Sorry I didn’t go through the thread fully, so this may come as a random comment in the middle of the discussion.
Being a lay ‘paatarivilla’ listener of music, I am not anyone to comment on SJ’s singing skills. But with regards to her voice, as a lay listener, I find it very shrill and cannot go past that to listen to many of her songs fully and unfortunately have missed out on so many Ilayaraja songs. In contrast, I have been able to relish so many of MSV’s songs because I enjoy P. Susheela’s voice and singing.
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Madan
February 16, 2023
Enna koduka sir pera: It isn’t just about lay v/s ‘non lay’. Tastes are a thing. My best friend dislikes Mohd Rafi’s very voice, described it as akin to the sound of a mosquito buzz. I respect opera but I will never get around to actually liking it, that’s just a bridge too far.
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Nappinai (@Nappinai2)
February 18, 2023
@Enna Koduka Sir Pera: Thanks for that comment. It echoes my sentiment and I had assumed that it was not an uncommon opinion that SJ has a shrill voice/ keechu koral. While growing up, I had heard that comment numerous times from my family, friends and neighbors that included a professional singer who had shared stage with her. I remember my grandfather used to request the channel to be flipped when some of her songs were played. All of this can just be a matter of taste of course.
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Anand Raghavan
February 18, 2023
Pardon me if it is a naive question and if it is not the right forum 🙂 We say music has no language and the language of music is the notes as in sa re ga in Indian classical or do re mi solfege or kural, tuttam etc in Tamil pann, but when a melody is composed , we see the lyrics fit the metre in certain language whereas it doesn’t fit that well in another language. So does this mean certain type of music ties itself closely with a particular language ? And does that denote why certain type of music originated from a certain place?
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musical
February 18, 2023
If SJ sounds shrill, it is not about her singing but about the songs given to her. Maybe shrill songs were given to her! I am not that familiar with IR or SJ from tamil music scene. I heard and still hear a lot of her telugu songs which dont sound shrill but perfect for me.
Some friends of mine say that Mukesh is nasal. Many actors have most memorable songs sung by him and they are evergreen.
Rafi sounded dull and boring sometimes. Even Kishore had some typical sleep inducing songs but enlivened by his exceptional voice.
Lata is discussed ad nauseum and there is nothing more to add. Her earliest songs and some songs afterwards made her immortal.
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Madan
February 18, 2023
Anand Raghavan: Great question which can help bring out the many shibboleths in music.
It’s absolutely incorrect to say music has no language once we look at it technically. It’s more of a positive-sounding generalization that urges listeners to look past boundaries. But boundaries do exist.
Even before we get to how lyrics in a certain language and melodies written for that language fit, there are so many cultural nuances in musical subgenres that depend not just on language but even on style/accent. For eg, SPB wouldn’t use the rustic accent on Chinnamani while singing Ilanjolai. Kailash Kher’s hard and emphatic Punjabi inflection wouldn’t fit in a Mehdi Hasan ghazal. And when you get into Western, there are numerous such sub cultural aspects. And individual singers bring their own quirks.
Now, the next part of it is that composers are drawing from a well of traditional and classical melodies built up through centuries. So, yes, a standard set of melodies that fit Tamil have already developed over the years which are different from those that fit Hindi. There is also greater convergence of such melodies between the four South languages because of linguistic similarities as well as the common Carnatic base. Same as how Talat singing a Lucknavi ghazal and Mukesh singing a very UP/Bhojpuri-ish folk song are still from the same common base.
With that said, there is convergence between these divergent strands and that’s where the overambitious ‘music has no language’ saying comes in. You CAN use similarities in melodic progressions to bend language to the wills of music. Raja did this on Kaise Kahoon. The song outwardly sounds like any of his work from the early 80s but the “rehkar saamne hi/kaisi yeh judaai” line sounds like Raja composed it with Hindi in mind (Bhupinder renders it even better in the second antara: “manzil hai wo jannat/jannat hai mohabbat”, exactly like in a Hindi song). Many RD hits were first composed in Bengali and repurposed for Hindi. So there are convergences but these convergences owe to our common Indian cultural base in turn. Can you take a tune composed for Tamil and fit English lyrics on it? You can but with great difficulty and vice versa might well be impossible in many cases.
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musical
February 18, 2023
If the lyrics used are not weighty enough, it means lyrics can be manipulated to bollywood or to tollywood or to all woods who like ARR music style with any catchy lyrics.
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brangan
February 18, 2023
Anand Raghavan: Actually, I’d say it’s the other way around. If the ” lyrics fit the metre in certain language whereas it doesn’t fit that well in another language,” it is the fault of the lyricist. Because language in music is very flexible. You can either be syllabic (one syllable per note of music) or melismatic (one syllable over many notes) and “adjust” to the tune. A skillful lyricist can do that. Take “Anubavam pudhumai ” and its source “Besame mucho”, or “Usure poguthey” vs “Behne de”.
The latter is a great example of two sets of excellent lyrics. Take this line:
behne de ghangor ghata / behne de paani ki tarah
akkarai cheemayil nee irundhum / aiviral theendida ninaikkuthadi
Syllabically speaking, the Tamil “lyric” seems longer, but — like the Hindi lines — it fits exactly into one cycle of the tune’s thaalam (aadhi thaalam, eight beats).
So does this mean certain type of music ties itself closely with a particular language ?
This is the more interesting question. Because the music should suit the area the language is spoken from. In Pukar, when Rahman tunes ‘SUnta hai mera khuda’ for a Hindi film… To my ears, the song’s gamakam’s sound “south Indian-ish”. The raga is Mayamalagowla, whose Hindustani equivalent is Bhairav. This sounds more like the former: the same sangati’s as in ‘Kallellaam maanikka kal aaguma…”
Whereas when you listen to Naushad’s ‘Mohe bhool gaye saawariya’, it sounds like Bhairav. It sounds like a “North Indian” song.
But strangely, though ‘Hai Rama’ (Rangeela) is in a Carnatic ragam (Pathuvarali), it sounds neutral — probably because Rahman just uses the notes big and strong and doesn’t get into sangati’s and gamakam-s.
So I guess — at least to me — the words are never a problem when it comes to making songs. It’s more the music/tune that should fit the milieu.
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Anand Raghavan
February 18, 2023
Thanks BR for the insightful response and examples. May be due to familiar bias, Kampita gamakam which is a core essence of carnatic sound , sounds ‘better’ in Telugu (and also south Indian languages) , but no much in North Indian languages. In the same way ‘meend’ essence of Hindustani sound ‘better’ in Hindi/awadhi/other similar languages, ghazal in Urdu etc.
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Anand Raghavan
February 18, 2023
Thanks Madan, sorry I wanted to mention Thanks Madan and BR but missed while typing my reply.
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Anand Raghavan
February 18, 2023
Thanks Madan and BR, missed your name Madan while typing my reply
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Kannaa
February 21, 2023
வாணி ஜெயராம் தமிழிலும் மற்றும் பல மொழிகளிலும் தனது தெவிட்டாக்குரலில் பாடல்களை தந்து ரசிகர்களை மகிழ்வித்திருக்கிறார். இது அவர் ஹிந்தியில் தந்த ஒரு பேட்டி (இரு பாகங்களில்) …
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Kannaa
February 22, 2023
In many of her public appearances, VJ usually comes across staid (IMO). In this interview in Telugu with RK (Vemur Radhakrishna), she loosens up like I’ve never seen her before. And then there is the sixty-four-dollar question…she cleverly parries it with verbal dodges “meeku thelusu…”, “media-ku inka baaga thelusu…”, “meeru mari mari aa point-le…” etc. 🙂 RK wouldn’t let up…his doggedness pays off despite her initial discomfiture in addressing it. Relenting somewhat, she eventually drops hints about other personalities and setbacks in their career…for us to make inferences…but let all that remain a footnote in VJ’s otherwise glorious musical career spanning many languages and decades !
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Kannaa
February 22, 2023
Aandaal’s savage love for her man (albeit, no “ordinary man”) is part of popular Tamizh lore. In blunt language, she bared her soul in verse after verse of “Naachiaar Thirumozhi”. Among one of my favorite VJ songs , though from an unreleased movie, we get an approximation of that unstinting devotion and love for her “ishta devathaa”.
Like most (if not all) of us, VJ was not perfect. Through her music and beyond, she tried to rise above some of the pettiness that divides people. Whether you liked her voice or not, whether you liked her general personality or not, IMO that is still a worthy takeaway. Here is “Olai thaangi chelladi…” (MD: C. Paandurangan, Lyrics: Chozhavandaan Raajaangam)
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hari prasad
March 2, 2023
Off topic , but here’s a rare English interview that Sivaji gave after he won the Phalke Award.
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Ravi
March 2, 2023
On topic, here is some scary stuff from Vani:
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Jayram
March 2, 2023
w/ BMK
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brangan
March 3, 2023
Jayram: Thank you for this. I have vague memories of the film (terrible IIRC) but these songs are such fun. And how amazing that BMK’s smooth timbre fits better into a “rustic song” than Yesudas’s smooth timbre in, say, “Seppu kudam thooki pora” (also with VJ).
And “High on the hills” is a Kalyani? 😀 How smoothly it segues into “Ethavunara…”
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Ravi
March 3, 2023
After seeing Jayram’s post, I was reminded of another duet of Vani with BMK:
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Jayram
March 3, 2023
Yes, BR! BMK must have had that trademark sly grin on his face during the recording. Those segues from “High on the Hills” to “Paluku Kanda Chakkeranu Kerune” in Navarasa Kaanada and “Golden Youth” to “E Thavunara” in Kalyani; very smooth indeed. He was known for never needing a second take to record; he always got it right on the first! What a genius!
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