The Madras Music Academy conferred TM Krishna with the Sangita Kalanidhi, the highest award in the Carnatic music scene. While some musicians have come in his support, others have registered their protest by returning awards and boycotting the Music Academy Conference 2024.
For those who want to talk about this issue…
Posted in: Music: Classical, Society
Baradwaj Rangan 
KK
March 22, 2024
I like how almost every thing now is looked through the lens of caste. Be it this affair or the Zomato one. The left is trying really hard to discredit any genuine criticism. Someone summarized this controversy as brahmin meltdown.
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Nappinai
March 22, 2024
TMK belongs to the TTKrishnamachari family that founded the Music Academy. The Academy is now run by the N.Ram faction of the Hindu group. Therefore the academy is just being true to the values it stands for today.
The award itself in an election year is unsurprising. After all the single trope of DMK is Brahmin bashing. This gives an opportunity to repeat that and distract from any other issue making news. TMK started with calls for diversity and inclusiveness but has devolved into a politician taking jabs at Lord Ram etc.
I don’t care if he is the greatest musician on the planet but to me Carnatic music cannot be isolated from Bhakti bhava. Award him all you want, don’t call him a Carnatic musician please. He can be a musician of whatever name.
If musical merit is all that matters, why didn’t MA award flute Mali?
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Isai
March 22, 2024
This article details the performative wokeness that I resent and suggests what could actually be done by the privileged:
https://www.roundtableindia.co.in/the-double-dhamaka-of-being-a-brahmin-revolutionary/
This controversy reminds me of the dialogue from the movie Sivaji: The Boss – MGR’um naan daan, Sivaji’um naan daan!!
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mvky
March 22, 2024
‘Colour Of Crow…Looks Unbearable’: Senior Mohiniyattam Dancer’s ‘Racist’ Remark On Fellow Artiste | What Happened
Senior Mohiniyattam dancer Kalamandalam Sathyabhama faced heavy criticism after making racist remarks against a fellow artiste during an interview with a YouTube channel on Thursday.
Renowned Mohiniyattam dancer Dr RLV Ramakrishnan alleged that Sathyabhama’s remakrs were about him and said that he would initiate legal action against her.
Though Sathyabama denied Ramakrishnan’s allegations and said that she did not name anyone specifically, her remarks stirred a major controversy in Kerala society.
“I have not taken any names in the interview. What I have said in the interview is my opinion, and I stand by that. I don’t have any regrets,” she said.
https://www.news18.com/india/kerala-mohiniyattam-kalamandalam-sathyabhama-racist-remarks-rlv-ramakrishnan-human-rights-latest-news-8824916.html
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Rocky
March 22, 2024
The Shiv Aroor Interview
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Rocky
March 22, 2024
BTW, kudos to Anmol Jamwal for watching and actually reviewing Veer Savarkar.
Baaki ususal jagah toh like TKF, TKS, TVW kee tarah radio silence hai !!!
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Rocky
March 22, 2024
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kaizokukeshav
March 22, 2024
Awards have always been political tools not just now but since inception. Oscars are no exception to this rule. People should take them with pinch of salt and artists should just let the phase pass by, they will get chance from another political entity at some point.
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KS
March 22, 2024
@Isai: Interesting article, and love the “performative wokeness”.
Here’s another perspective on the same lines: https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/why-tm-krishnas-problem-statement-is-beginning-to-sound-stale-5170943/
Its unfortunate that any disagreement with TM Krishna invites accusations of casteism. While that may be true for some, thats not usually the main contention.
The problem is that he antagonizes his own audience and compatriots in the art, the very people who patronize and dedicate their lives to the art, while sucking up to factions that have no stake or interest in it. Many people on that bandwagon couldn’t care less about Carnatic music, but just need another stick to beat brahmins with. And an Iyengar insider like TM Krishna is a useful idiot for them. In return, he gets book deals, litfest invites, columns, obscure awards, bogus titles like “public intellectual”, etc. All for just blowing hot air and a few token stunts.
Noone denies casteism in general society and the consequent problems. But dragging that into the dynamics of a small art form is silly. Carnatic music, throughout history, had been practised by various castes. Just that in the last century, Tamil brahmins kept it alive. But in Kerala (and other southern states), non-brahmins too are a significant part of it, thanks to the patronage of the Travancore kings and their music colleges. Maybe in TN, others just don’t care enough about this art form to the same extent, and thats okay. There are enough types of music to go around. Many art forms are tied to specific communities, but if that community is brahmin, thats immediately demonized as gatekeeping and discrimination. In any case, TM Krishna hasn’t done much about this except make noises and say all the right things that haters want to hear.
As for his attempts at stripping Carnatic music of its bhakti traditions and Hindu devotion (in line with the more general conspiracy to dissociate festivals, traditions, yoga, etc. from Hinduism so that only caste is left and the religion can be easily made the villain), he is free to try. Just as others within the art who are just as devoted to it, have the right to disagree and resist this effort.
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Yajiv
March 22, 2024
@Rocky: Since you’ve butted into the comments and done your usual needful (blindly repost talking points from others), I’ve gotta ask this: What’s your relationship with Carnatic music & the Madras katcheri scene? Do you have a favourite sabha in the city? Feel free to share any memorable performances of certain krithis or alaaps that you witnessed also.
Everyone else’s opinion seems to be coming from a personal well of knowledge & experience, so it would be nice if you could do the same too.
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Rocky
March 22, 2024
ha ha , favorite toolkit tactics , please don’t play south south.
That template has drowned in Cauvery long time back. I consider entire Bharat as one. chal bhaag ab.
P.S.- Here is one more “REPOST” just for your reference !! LOL
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Rocky
March 22, 2024
In other words Yajiv is implying- Since you are north Indian, you have no right to comment on South Indians . JC !!
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Isai
March 22, 2024
I have no interest in carnatic music but somehow Twitter algorithm keeps pushing this controversy in my timeline.
https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/why-tm-krishnas-problem-statement-is-beginning-to-sound-stale-5170943/
The above article was insightful. Thanks!
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venkymandram
March 23, 2024
Honestly, I was quite disappointed with TMK accepting the award, given how much he tried to distance himself from the “system” and challenge its place in the system. He seems utterly confused, trying to chase his own tail. Many moons ago, I came out of my dentist appointment and found him reading the book I had kept at the seating area without asking my permission. I was quite amused by this small incident as it gave me a glimpse of this complex person. This was at the early days when he had just started to question his privilege. We talked briefly about where I agreed with him and where I disagreed. He patiently listened. I hope that TMK is somewhere alive and hasn’t been swept over.
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Cholan Raje
March 23, 2024
My question is if non-Brahmins enter the Tamil Carnatic scene, will Ranjani-Gayathri or any of you guys have a problem with it? R-G implying there is a “genocide of Brahmins” happening anywhere already makes them sus to me
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hari prasad
March 23, 2024
I didn’t know that India and particularly Tamilnadu is running concentration camps to finish off Brahmins , thanks for the piece of information about this dystopian version of India.
BTW , let me use this opportunity to rant like Fahadh Faasil from Super Deluxe about our society.
Some people say the Indian caste system was brought by the British here , if that’s the case then why the hell a lot of Indians are following and advocating it?
Why are they more okay with “The British dividing the sons and daughters of Bharat Mata” than a woman roaming around the streets wearing Pepe Jeans and Superdry?
Why do we still read news of Dalits getting their bodies hacked for drinking water , taking a swim at a river and getting ragged to death at college?
Why are some people from the upper caste genuinely think they’re the ones who get oppressed “more” than the Dalits?
(I repeat the word “more” so that people won’t tell me that I didn’t know about the sufferings that they’re facing)
Why does a political party that claims to fight for social justice is giving seats to people who openly boast about their caste pride?
Why the hell did our leadero supremo suddenly shift the main bus terminus of Chennai from Koyambedu to a faraway random place like Kilambakkam without proper planning leading to frequent brawls between the people and the conductors/ drivers?
Why are we seeing a string of right wing propaganda movies releasing in Bollywood at THIS particular time?
Why are Chennai Super Kings hoarding a shitload of money from fans as ticket kaasu by using the latter’s love for MSD and announcing before the match that Rituraj Gaikwad would instead captain the Men In Yellow?
Why people hesitate to take action against Vairamuthu and Balayya despite the many many harassment allegations against them?
Why is Kamal getting closer and closer with the Sun Family which he swore he would never do when he started his party?
Why did Aishwarya Rajinikanth release a half-assed Lal Salaam if a hard disk that contained the movie’s footage got allegedly lost?
Why is Vijay looking like a live action version of an elderly character from an anime that pretends to look young by shaving off his beard?
Why did Lokesh Kanagaraj recreate that oops moment from the opening scene of Chandramukhi where it obviously looked like Rajini grabbing the ropes for leverage and awkwardly fighting people by flying in that Leo flashback?
And why Arun Matheswaran of all people whose films are always emotionally distant is helming the Raja biopic? (maybe he’ll prove us all wrong , still).
End of rant , I’ll now go listen to the amazing songs that Raja composed for Bharathiraja to cool my soul.
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venkymandram
March 23, 2024
@Cholan Raje. I am a musician who has played mridangam in the tamil carnatic scene. I know many artistes who don’t belong to the brahmin community. I grew up in Mylapore for the first seventeen years of my life and I have seen countless artistes who have shined and if you go back to history, there are enough and more examples. Yes, brahmins have an advantage because of the milieu they grew up in. When I was born in Mylapore in 1985 and grew up there, I had a sister who sung the music, an aunt who taught me my initial lessons, a cousin who played mridangam like me. And when my sister got married, her husband’s aunt belonged to a musical family. Acquiring this taste and sense of aesthetics came naturally to me because of the environment I grew up in. If someone isn’t born into this milieu, they seek this taste and develop their aesthetics as much as I sought agriculture in the later part of my years. I had no uncle, aunt talking of agriculture., doing farming. I wanted to work in agriculture and hence I sought out this milieu. Of course, discrimination happens among those old-duddies who select slots in music sabhas. Currently, NRI uncles determine slots because of the money they have donated to sabhas. And at the same time, there are so many NRIs who have been helping Odhuvars and Therukoothu artists with zoom concerts during the pandemic. In the org I run, we helped organize these concerts and so many came forward to raise funds for traditional artists stuck during COVID. Truth is always mutidimensional.
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venkymandram
March 23, 2024
@hariprasad I’ll add to your rant
scentate [sɛnteɪt]vb not being able to work out whether the problem comes from oneself,or whether it comes from the situation
“Is your sadness the terrible truth and your happiness a mask, or is yourhappiness the profound reality of your life and your sadness just aselfish episode? Is your difficult relationship with your lover causingyou to be unhappy, or is your unhappiness making the relationshipdifficult? Is it your train that is leaving the station, or another trainyou can see moving through the window? Is it you, or is it the world?”
One author called “Warren Allen” wrote a book exclusively for you called “33 Myths of the System”. Go read it. You will be enlightened
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brangan
March 23, 2024
Here is an old Reader’s Write In by venkymandram
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brangan
March 23, 2024
Here is a slightly tangential (though related) article I wrote long ago:
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hari prasad
March 23, 2024
It’s Darren Allen and thanks for the book recommendation!
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venkymandram
March 23, 2024
@hariprasad My bad. This has been one of the life-changing books for me this year! One of the myth delves into caste without calling it so and how it came to be in the human society
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Madan
March 23, 2024
“given how much he tried to distance himself from the “system” and challenge its place in the system. He seems utterly confused, trying to chase his own tail” – Not surprising, is it? He used to blast other Carnatic musicians for being loath to innovate while simultaneously calling Raja ‘transposing’ a different melody on Mari Mari as sacrilege and being upset that Carnatic community wasn’t upset enough about Raja’s experiment. You can’t dictate the terms of innovation when you start out complaining about lack of innovation (and by the way, in ghazals they often sing a different melody for the same text so if TMK says “but Carnatic music” he is no different from his peers that he so desperately seeks to differentiate himself from). That is why, to riff on hari prasad’s brilliant comment, our ‘revolutionaries’ are confused wussies like TMK or Kamal, not Bhagat Singh.
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Madan
March 23, 2024
Cholan Raje: R-G are not saying there IS a genocide against Brahmins in TN. They’re saying TMK supports Periyar who did call for killing every Paapan (Brahmin) aka advocated genocide on them. The modern DMK is a more moderate party vis a vis Periyar’s radical ideology but that is neither here nor there. The question here is can you say that TMK honouring Periyar with one of his songs amounts to TMK supporting all of Periyar’s positions. R-G’s argument against TMK is a bit of a reach.
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venkymandram
March 23, 2024
@Madan True. Deeply unfortunate. Few months ago, I learned and sang “Rangapura” solely by listening to his track on loop and it boggles my mind that this person who could bring “Rangapura kriti” to life would try to decouple Bhakti and lyric from music. W
hen Baddy’s friend Samanth reviews TMK’s book, he wrote, “There is more clarity to be found in Krishna’s practicing than in his preaching, and his concerts are—as they ought to be—the most rewarding exemplifications of his thoughts on the art. ” Whether TMK succeeds in decoupling Bhakti and lyrics from music, I have succeeded in decoupling TMK’s turgid prose and thoughts from TMK’s corraline music. To me, that feels like an achievement.
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Raghu Narayanan
March 23, 2024
The ecosystem of Carnatic music, by definition, is not secular, is it? Is it just the ragas and talas? Did the trinity merely make tunes, or are their compositions an outpouring of their bhakti towards their Gods? The argument that Carnatic music should be made more secular and inclusive, is in itself as illogical as it is puerile. It’s as good, or as dumb, as saying that a temple or a church or a mosque has to be made more secular. So all the noise that is made out of this instrument is as tinny and phony as the instrument itself.
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Kannaa
March 23, 2024
Why does a maverick care for (if not crave) an award from an institution which is an embodiment of stodgy conservatism in the musical realm ? Why does an iconoclast suddenly need the approbation of mainstreamers who worship at the altar of orthodoxy? Isn’t his shtick to rail against ill-employed musical strains that purportedly foist social and theological dogmas ? Now, he is eager to be felicitated at the very temple he wanted to raze (figuratively) by those very devotees he loved to mock.
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Skeptic
March 23, 2024
No comments at all on TMKs music, either no one cares or an admission that he is a modern great.
Im mostly puzzled why the lack of substantive criticism of TMK at all. The letter from Ranjani Gayatri makes a dumb claim about denigrating Tyagaraja and MS Subbalaxmi, which is really a total falsehood. Pointing out MS devadasi background or Tyagaraja’s reference to castes is not denigration.
Is the claim that singing songs to periyar or Allah or environmentalism is disqualifying? Or the fact that the man is inconsistent or perhaps even stupid in his political views disqualifying for the academy award?
Bottom line is that TMK is a very fine musician and a major influence musically on the upcoming generation. Far more musically deserving of the award than most of the awardees of the last decade and that’s the main thing that matters.
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Madan
March 23, 2024
“Is the claim that singing songs to periyar or Allah or environmentalism is disqualifying?”- This is what I asked. Saying he “supports a man who advocated Brahmin genocide” is a reach when he basically sang one song in honour of Periyar. I mean, what about Ram sending Sita on exile while we’re at it? As a popular Hindi song goes, “Sita bhi yahaan badnaam hui”,
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Nappinai
March 23, 2024
”Far more musically deserving of the award than most of the awardees of the last decade and that’s the main thing that matters.” – @skeptic what’s your stellar qualification to pass this sweeping statement?
TMK’s stance that the trinity focused on the technicalities of the music and not on the lyrics or bhakti is an insult to Thyagaraja who dedicated his life to lord Rama. Similarly, Purandara dasa (not a part of trinity) spent his life near the vittala temple and so on. For TMK to take a thyagaraja kriti and say he hopes that one day the lyrics becomes irrelevant ( lord Rama, palm tree or a dog in TMK’ s words) is attention seeking and deeply problematic. TMK’s stance is anti everything that MS epitomized. So, yes he is an insult to her as well.
Like I said I don’t give two hoots about his musical expertise.
Yes, he was a really good Carnatic musician. I have MC’ed one of his brilliant concerts and have interacted with him. I don’t care if music academy awards him. My point is he can no longer call himself a Carnatic musician and must not be recognized as such.
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KK
March 23, 2024
“Is the claim that singing songs to periyar or Allah or environmentalism is disqualifying?” Yes very much so. The unnecessary inclusion of secularism to things that are inherently religious must be opposed. Yoga, Carnatic Music, Odissi and other dance forms, these have their origin in religion. So the origins must be respected. And any attempt at disassociation amounts to intellectual dishonesty. Plain and simple. I remember how Neil Tyson passionately spoke about the jesuit preists who gave us the calendar we use now. And changing Before christ to before common era is an intellectual dihonesty. Because it doesn’t give credit where it’s due.
On another note, recently a court had to step in when the same DMK government wanted to a make a temple space “secularist” by allowing non-believers/ non-hindus to come and have a picnic disrespecting the sacred space as well as the emotions of practicing hindus. It isn’t enough that the governments are looting the temples and have forcefully taken over the temple land; no, they must desecrate the temples as well. It’s not a genocide, yes. But it is an erasion of hindu influence from public life. And it is happening in south, especially in Tamil Nadu. And the anger then is justified.
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Rocky
March 24, 2024
Very informative, detailed and explosive interview of Dushyanth Sridhar Jee. What clarity of thoughts , and logical way to respond to BD’s questions. I have become a fan of his !!
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venkymandram
March 24, 2024
@Madan “ The question here is can you say that TMK honouring Periyar with one of his songs amounts to TMK supporting all of Periyar’s positions” I think you are conflating “singing” with “writing” and that’s worth examining.
Is singing same as writing?
When I sing, to speak in indic terms, I embody the lakshana of the song. I let the music percolate into my veins and breathe the lyrics. I am sure you would agree if you’ve learnt any kritis in your childhood. Have you? I don’t know. There is no other way to learn a new song. You have to surrender to the song.
As a singer, the relationship between the song and singer is 360 degrees different from the essay and the writer. With words being limited, I inhabit a make believe world with infinite grey area and have a chance to paint the world in my make believe terms and reference points. In singing world, there is no grey area. I embrace unconditionally. I am naked when I sing. I can’t sing in grey terms. It is impossible.
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venkymandram
March 24, 2024
@Madan “what about Ram sending Sita on exile while we’re at it”
I have been studying Patanjali Yoga Sutras for the past seven years and it has given me a good learning to understand how to make sense of any Hindu text. One of the key lessons I have learned is that when we are looking at Hindu texts, we have to make a distinction between “Natya Dharmi” and “Loka Dharmi”. If you’ve learned bharatanatyam, you would have learned this as well.
In simple terms, the former refers to theatre oriented and the latter refers to everyday, pedestrian life, where mortals like us live with our limitations and value systems we’ve been conditioned into.
Understanding Hindu text requires you to never conflate the two. The story of Ramayana or Mahabharata or any Purana story you might have heard was not written at “Loka Dharmi” level and hence judging the story and its characters from lokadharmi is a basic 101 level misreading of the text.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 24, 2024
@KS beautifully articulated. R-G’s reaction is not in response to an isolated incident. TMK has a long history of dissing Hinduism big time (you cant liken Lord Rama to a stick or dog) and Bhakti for atleast a decade now. It got too repugnant for them as it has been to many other rasikas. They are not saying ‘Boycott TMK concerts’. All they are saying is they will not attend the awards function and listen to some more proselytizing of his approach to music. This happens even in closely knit families. IMHO they’ve taken a frighteningly brave step and now have to face the full wrath of N Ram and his arm twisting of other sabhas and the Carnatic eco system into toeing his line. Not to mention all the DM-Commie goons and trolls flooding their timeline. Their only sin is they dont have an eloquent spokesperson on their side. They may have torpedoed their career as they dont have other avenues like film music or popular music.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 24, 2024
Hitler was a very good artist-painter incidentally. I’m definitely not going to separate the art and his personal construct. Whether one likes it or not ALL art is autobiographical
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skeptic
March 24, 2024
KK says: “Yes very much so. The unnecessary inclusion of secularism to things that are inherently religious must be opposed. Yoga, Carnatic Music, Odissi and other dance forms, these have their origin in religion. So the origins must be respected.”
Varnams, alapanais, kalpana swarams, javalis, tillanas have little or no religious content. Bhajans or vedic chants are purely religious music. Carnatic music is deeply influenced by religion, but its origins include folk and purely artistic elements as well. And no doubt other religions too. Venkatamakhi of melakarta fame wrote hundreds of years ago that Kalyani is “beloved of the Turushkas”. Certainly the family of ragas we call Kalyani/Kalyani/Yaman is not present in texts prior to Mughal rule in India.
In any case, do you think TMK actually renders traditional religious kritis poorly?
Nappinai says: “TMK’s stance that the trinity focused on the technicalities of the music and not on the lyrics or bhakti is an insult to Thyagaraja …”
But does he actually sing them well? Has he ever taken a traditional Kriti and changed the words? Never that I have heard. Listen to his marvelous rendition of Manavinaalakincha (“Listen to my mind’s desire”)here: https://youtu.be/5yZEsJDJ9yc?si=QDeu1BdhE_vZ4Xjz. The majority of musicians including self-proclaimed defenders Trichur Brothers do not sing the lyrics right – “manavyalakincha” doesn’t mean anything.
None of the objections raised have any musical validity as far as I can tell.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 24, 2024
Very well put @KK. I dont know if Western Classical music is devotional or not. If it touches me I’m not going question its origin – I’ll simply respect it. There’s this new absurd thing floating around about how non-Hindus or non-Brahmins dont have the opportunity to learn Carnatic music. Nothing could be more ridiculous or further from the truth. Apart from Ilayaraja and Yesudas there are scores of every day examples including a former neighbour of mine who is now a renowned stand-up
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KK
March 24, 2024
Just because the Kalyani raga is mentioned in 16th century literature, the mughal era, doesn’t mean it was invented by the mughals. How do you know its origins do not lie in the bhakti tradition? After all the 16th century also had a bhakti movement. But all we can remember is mughals. Also if you are going to link Yamani to Yemen please find evidence that Yamani actually exists in Yemen. As the hypothesis goes, it must be an indian raga that others appropriated. That doesn’t make it theirs.
And why include Allah in carnatic music? Isn’t that a disrespect to the origins of the art? Why this forced secularism? There are enough avenues to practice secularism. Leave the carnatic music be hindu. And finally, it seems like Hindus are the only community trying to chip away at the origins of every art form rooted in Indian tradition in an effort to making it secular instead of fiercely protecting it as it is.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 24, 2024
Awesome comment @KK – Respect. Tambrahms and Hindus suffer from a severe case of Stockholm syndrome
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brangan
March 24, 2024
KK: The unnecessary inclusion of secularism to things that are inherently religious must be opposed. Yoga, Carnatic Music, Odissi and other dance forms, these have their origin in religion. So the origins must be respected.
I don’t know about “unnecessary”. Yes, it is true — broadly — that Carnatic music is about bhakti rasa and Hindustani compositions are about shringar rasa. But even as far back as Ariyakudi, non-religious songs came to be part of the repertoire — like Bharathi’s songs, nationalistic songs, songs like Dhandayuthapani Pillai’s ‘Muthamizh solaiyile’, the erotic padam-s / javali-s (very Hindustani-like in both styling, raga-phrasing, and emotion)…
So – in a way – what TMK is doing is following this tradition of breaking away from the Trinity’s emphasis on bhakti and asking, “Why can’t Perumal Murugan’s lyrics be set to X or Y raga”?
I am not supporting either side, but there are two sides to Indian classical music: the raga/melody and the sahitya/words. So what constitutes “Carnatic music”?
Is ‘Radhe unakku kobam’ (composed by Papanasam Sivan, incredibly sung by MKT) Carnatic music because it is in the raga Senchurutti, or is it NOT Carnatic music because the sahitya is about a man’s entreaty to his lover?
Conversely, if a concert singer performs the ultra-popular ‘Chinnanjiru kiliye’, do we call it Carnatic music because of the ragamalika in it, or not (because the sahitya is not god or bhakti-oriented)?
The word “unnecessary” triggered these thoughts/questions. I have no answers except… if you like the music, enjoy it 🙂
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 24, 2024
BR : Great comment and informative (as usual)!
I’m just adding to what KK might have missed to add ( this is an emotional hot button for sure)
No one is arguing with that. Its TMK’s constant tom-tomming about it in various fora whether through articles, youtube lectures, training programs, etc which irks people and gets our goat. ILAYARAJA is the one who took classical music to the masses. Sanjay Subrahmanyan has been singing Tamil Carnatic on wide variety of topics including love songs well before TMK and also communicated his (quote- unquote) ‘secularism’. With TMK its just the last straw which broke the camel’s back. No one is going to grudge him if he just sticks to singing. Its the high octane activism which is repugnant to many people. He is agenda driven for sure.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 24, 2024
On a lighter note we seem to be talking more about Krishna than Rama nowadays 🙂
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Madan
March 24, 2024
“I think you are conflating “singing” with “writing” and that’s worth examining.
Is singing same as writing?” - Yes, they are. Whether a singer or writer wants to immerse themselves in the make believe world they are creating is a choice, not an obligation. SPB is (was) on record that he HAD to forget the songs he sang day in day out in order to be able to do justice to what he sang on a new day. Your personal choice to live and breathe the lyrics of songs you sing is yours, not a choice that every singer makes. Similarly, a writer may choose to put themselves into the text as a means of catharsis or they may not. I don’t agree with the view that writing is necessarily always at a remove from a person’s internal values than singing. If this is so, suicide notes would be sung (at least by people who could carry a tune) than written.
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KK
March 24, 2024
Brangan: I agree with you on the point that one may enjoy the music one likes. But my reply was in response to Sceptic’s comment “Is the claim that singing songs to periyar or Allah or environmentalism is disqualifying?” The word unnecessary was about including Allah and similar things, again in response to Sceptic’s comment. And the fact that Periyar did want a genocide of Brahmins then someone singing in favour of him will be suspect of the same proclivities. Has he ever tried to disassociate himself from the genocidal comments? If yes, then I can give him a pass. If no, then it is a problem.
Many writers of 20th century did support Mussolini, Nazism and stuff like GB Shaw. Revolutionaries like Bhagat Singh supported Communism even though Stalin and Mao killed millions of people. It hadn’t happened in his lifetime, true. But had they been alive now, these great men should be questioned about these things as well.
And each art form evolves. So it will not lie exactly close to what its original practitioners intended. But my point is how far should this evolution be allowed to continue? Cultures don’t die. They just evolve into something unrecognisable.
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Madan
March 24, 2024
“Its the high octane activism which is repugnant to many people. He is agenda driven for sure.” – This I agree with (but more because he is confused, as I said above, and not because activism is somehow inherently bad – if we are to believe the latter, then maybe we should have never got independence!). But my concern is the hate for TMK is being blown up into a larger argument where any Carnatic musician perusing non religious texts in Carnatic is somehow automatically disqualified from honours. If this is what the Carnatic establishment believes, so be it but it would be then be, as Ilayaraja said, simply a relic frozen in time with no possibilities to grow. This is evidently not so as Subramanyam Bharti’s texts have been set to raaga and performed in concerts numerous times.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 24, 2024
Thanks Madan. No way this is going to happen. i.e no musician is going to get disqualified. The cake is tooo small. Everyone is only trying to enlarge the cake
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Madan
March 24, 2024
“And the fact that Periyar did want a genocide of Brahmins then someone singing in favour of him will be suspect of the same proclivities.” – A BJP leader promised in 2019 that they would kill off all Indian Muslims in the next five years if they were elected. Should I say that as BJP supporters, R-G need to expressly disassociate from that in order to perform Carnatic music? First of all, I don’t accept this whole guilty by association virus that’s spread wider than covid-19 in the last few years on social media but if we do go there, I would expect my right wing comrades to hold BJP supporters to the same standards that they do a TMK or Kamal Haasan. I am still waiting for that bright August day to dawn!
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Madan
March 24, 2024
“I don’t accept this whole guilty by association virus that’s spread wider than covid-19 in the last few years on social media ” - And let me add here that I fought this battle against guilt by association first with the wokes as the liberal commentators here can attest to. So don’t ask me what about. I am ready to pull up everyone for hypocrisy but are you?
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KK
March 24, 2024
Yeah I do not support anyone justifying a genocide. And yes BJP supporters need to disassociate themselves from these comments. Otherwise they are guilty too. Genocide shouldn’t be justified no matter what. But then I will expect the so called liberals to critcize their own leaders for promoting tipu sultan or Mao and others. And just to clarify I do not belong to any wing.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 24, 2024
Madan, nicely argued but there’s a huge difference. With Periyar, he actually followed through on his utterances in some highly obnoxious violent ways such as ripping the poonal of brahmins, garlanding Hindu deities with chappals. You are comparing Hitler-like figure with a strong hold on his followers with some non-descript uninfluential politician. If you’d mentioned someone like Bal Thackeray then I’d agree with what you said
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Madan
March 24, 2024
“If you’d mentioned someone like Bal Thackeray then I’d agree with what you said” – Well, then, the legacy of Bal cannot be separated in any case from the BJP. They were brothers-in-arms during Babri demolition. Until R-G say they don’t agree with the politics of Bal, how do I know? See! This game can be played all day all night which is why I only go by what a person themselves expresses as their views and not whom they associate or don’t associate with. Even Cornel West considers as a dear friend a reactionary right wing Republican politician, doesn’t make Cornel a racist though, yes, sections of the loony left believe that he is.
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Madan
March 24, 2024
I admire both Gandhi and Bose but disagree with numerous things Gandhi said and did and likewise am a strong critic of Bose seeking to enlist Nazi and Japanese support against the British. You cannot assume that every ‘supporter’ of Bose is a Nazi. That is, frankly, a very black and white way of looking at the world.
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KK
March 24, 2024
I do not admire Gandhi. Gandhi did more damage to this country than even Nehru. And I will criticise anyone who claims himself to be a Gandhian. And as far as Bose is concerned I haven’t read much about him to make an opinion.
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mvky
March 24, 2024
Music is music. But… There is arabic music. Can it be ok if we use arabic music to express our devotion to our gods? Western music is secular as far as I know.
Singing in praise of Periyar in carnatic style? Really? And Allah? Even true muslims will be embarrassed. It all amounts to cultural appropriation.
Cant separate words with tunes. Not talking about filmi tunes.
If all gods are in fact one god and if all religions seamlessly become one big religion. Just like all humans have same structure inspite of superficial differences like color and features. If all nations become one nation ruled by AI. Will there be muslim, hindu, christian, jew AIs developed as per convenience? I am highly confused.
Dont sing, just hum like birds.
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Madan
March 24, 2024
“And as far as Bose is concerned I haven’t read much about him to make an opinion.” – Ah, how convenient! Allow me to say then that therefore your opinion of Gandhi isn’t worth the column inches you wrote it on since you profess ignorance of even one of the greatest freedom fighters of this country. You need to first have a holistic perspective of the freedom struggle to form opinions but Whatsapp Univ has taught us otherwise, hasn’t it?
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 24, 2024
Madan. Seriously! Did you expect R_G to bring in every political leader under the sun? I dont think they ever said they were pro-BJP. It would obfuscate what they were trying to convey. I reiterate – what they really need (poor things) is an articulate spokesperson like Madan Mohan RothRocks. I’m not joking here. I seriously worry how this may turn out for them. They are simply not media savvy like the opponents ranged on the other side.
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Madan
March 24, 2024
“If all gods are in fact one god and if all religions seamlessly become one big religion. ” - They don’t have to. There is such a thing of synthesis. There was more cultural syncreticism between the Hindu and the Muslim worlds in medieval times than there is now. The silos we now inhabit are a culmination of, variously, hardline Islam propagated by the Deobandi sect, British Divide and Rule policies and the Hindu renaissance leading to an assertion of an unique Hindu identity. Even Hindi and Urdu were once like brothers from different mothers until identity insecurities on both sides forced a cleavage. Why, our whole nation is but a celebration of syncreticism. The more we revel in identity silos, the more we set the stage for the eventual Balkanisation of India.
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Madan
March 24, 2024
“I dont think they ever said they were pro-BJP” - You don’t? Because I have heard them acknowledge in an interview that they were unapologetic supporters of Modi. They even said, “Modi dhaan naatuku oru hope kuduthurkar”. Statements like that suggest full monty level support, not just ‘soft’ support for the least worst of all alternatives.
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brangan
March 24, 2024
For those wondering about Ranjani-Gayatri’s Periyar remarks, here is a report.
Ram, Ramasamy and Rajini: What happened in Salem in 1971?
“The tableaux included obscene pictures of the birth of Lord Muruga, penance of sages and Mohini Avatara, a 10-foot long image of Lord Rama was carried on a vehicle and dozens of people kept beating it with chappals”
https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/lord-ram-ev-ramasamy-periyar-and-rajinikanth-what-happened-in-salem-in-1971/article30618177.ece
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 24, 2024
Madan. As I said before, to paraphrase Tom Cruise in ‘A Few Good Men’ – R-G needed a trial lawyer called RothRocks. Maybe they would have worded their letter differently. I personally have been at the receiving end of Tambrahm bashing and identify with their concerns
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Madan
March 24, 2024
sravishankar140: I am not talking about their letter alone, their Modi support was expressed by them in a video interview. There was no ambiguity about it. And I don’t hold that against them. I just don’t understand why people have such an enormous issue with other citizens of this country NOT having pro-BJP inclinations. I thought this was a democracy but maybe I am mistaken.
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vijay
March 24, 2024
Ranjani-Gayatri’s bogus arguments have been negated very well elsewhere..a coterie feels threatened, this is more a wolf whistle and an attempt to close their ranks and issue a warning to any other budding TMK’s out there-> dont get any ideas, or else …..Hegemony and status quo and gatekeeping are important for survival for this community. Not surprising that they are Modi’s fans. Funniest riposte though is from #metoo accused Chitravina Ravikiran who after being quiet for 5 years, suddenly found a moral spine to return the award now.
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KK
March 24, 2024
Apologies for taking the discussion astray but let me respond to Madan. Let’s dissect Gandhi’s character and the claim he is the father of the nation.
I am sure there are many more instances. But these are just right off my head. So an abusive, coward, power hungry and dumb old man is the father of the nation. And any criticism of him must come from whatsapp university graduates. No? Ain’t that the truth?
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Raghu Narayanan
March 24, 2024
@ BR:
“So – in a way – what TMK is doing is following this tradition of breaking away from the Trinity’s emphasis on bhakti and asking, “Why can’t Perumal Murugan’s lyrics be set to X or Y raga”?
I am not supporting either side, but there are two sides to Indian classical music: the raga/melody and the sahitya/words. So what constitutes “Carnatic music”?”
Apart from raga and sahitya, isn’t there also the intangible ‘bhakti’? To a complete ignoramus like myself, who doesn’t know the ABC of the technicalities of music, let alone Carnatic music, the sheer trance-like state in which M S rendered her songs, with an outpouring of Bhakti, was all that mattered. Bhakti towards the Gods is an inseparable part of Carnatic music, is what I am humbly convinced of. It is not a secular space at all. To try to secularize it would then really smack of mischievous intent, in my opinion.
So, can’t Perumal Murugan’s verses be set to X or Y raga? Indeed it can be. But it will not be Carnatic music just because it is set to a raga. If that be the case, then all the film songs which are set to ragas will be Carnatic music. On that note, I would consider Papanasam Sivan’s song you had quoted as a film song, and not Carnatic music.
So TMK, or anyone else, has the democratic right to choose to break-away from the Trinity’s emphasis on bhakti. But he, or that someone, should also have the spine to say that it is not Carnatic music. To cleave Bhakti out and still try to remain under the cloak of tradition would be cheap marketing.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 24, 2024
Thanks BR. @Madan : I despise Trump as a person- he is the epitome of the crass American – but I think he was the best US President of this century. I hope he comes back in 2024. Avara thaan naatuku oru hope kuduthurukkaar
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 24, 2024
You cant be an angel and be a politician. If I were in a similar situation I’ll accept the umbrella that protects me if the other side threatens. Is that so difficult to understand?
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 24, 2024
@KK – Any history not approved by Romila Thapar is whatsapp history. Didn’t you know that?? My grandfather was a great fan of Kalaignar – his word play that is -I dont know if he agreed with his politics. But whenever I mentioned Gandhi (Im a huge fan of the movie) he used to have this disgusted expression on his face. Diplomatically he steered the conversation away to Nehru’s half-brother (sic) Rafi Ahmed Kidwai – he was his huge fan and he used to regale me with stories about this guy’s dynamism and pragmatism in administration. I later found that it was no different from others of his generation.
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Madan
March 24, 2024
KK: None of what you said is untrue by itself but from the very fact that you have gone into so much detail about Gandhi, I can infer that you simply want to obfuscate about Bose. As you sought to about Gandhi.
Isn’t he also the same Gandhi who launched the Quit India Movement, leaving Britain with no option other than to literally fill up prisons with protesters. Which also compelled them to promise independence to India after the end of the war, as they no longer had the means to contain the mass movement. So the claim that the Naval Mutiny alone gave India independence is simply revisionist. Clement Atlee supported Indian independence going back to 1931 so his election to power had already paved the way for independence.
The same Gandhi whose Non Cooperation and Civil Disobedience Movements built up the mass support that made Quit India Movement possible in the first place.
The same Gandhi who resisted partition right till the end, which surely would have thwarted both the loss of millions of lives and the uprooting of families with devastating consequences.
I don’t even have to go into how his Gandhian methods were in turn appropriated by Martin Luther King Jr who in turn successfully campaigned for civil rights for black people.
Yes, he was deeply flawed and he made blunders but his influence was profound and without his leadership, India would not have got independence. Britain had crushed the 1857 revolt and would have crushed military revolts again. What they could not handle was mass civilian resistance to their rule and that resistance was galvanized by Gandhi. Even Bose himself described Quit India as a new chapter in the freedom movement. Then Viceroy Lilinthgow described it as the most serious rebellion since 1857. Meanwhile, who opposed Quit India? Hindu Mahasabha and Jinnah’s Muslim League. So you have excellent company.
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Madan
March 24, 2024
“You cant be an angel and be a politician. ” – Er, so why expect only people not sharing your political affiliation to be angels, failing which you shall utterly demonize them and describe them as nothing sort of terrorists? Are you seriously unable to see the contradiction here? You gladly extol KK’s reading of Gandhi when he is doing exactly that – punishing Gandhi for not being an angel and completely ignoring his many positive contributions. No, you don’t have to read whatsapp univ to be aware of Gandhi’s flaws but yes, you do have to subscribe to it to pretend his positive contributions don’t exist at all.
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venkymandram
March 24, 2024
@Madan “I don’t agree with the view that writing is necessarily always at a remove from a person’s internal values than singing” My argument is that writing gives you much more room to explore far diversity of internal values as opposed to singing. WHEN you are singing, you cannot sing it without becoming the song and the lyrics that you are carrying it. WHEN you are writing, you can write without necessarily becoming the essay and the words you bring to life in the page.
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KK
March 24, 2024
And boom. Of course I must be from Hindu Mahasabha and all. The common retort by any so called liberal. And by the way Britain couldn’t have suppressed the larger mutiny had it happened. Unlike 1857, Britain after world war II was a much weaker force. Gandhi resisted paritition, yes. But why didn’t he allow complete population exchange? Knowing fully well that minorities in an Islamic state will not survive he didn’t allow that. He let them die. And you are yet to respond to any of the other points that I mentioned.
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Madan
March 24, 2024
“WHEN you are singing, you cannot sing it without becoming the song and the lyrics that you are carrying it.” – Yes, but you don’t have to believe the lyrics word for word to be able to become the song. You simply enact the expression. That’s why many Hollywood actors have at least some facility in singing as well. Singing is essentially acting but in tune. The singer is not the composer and their job isn’t to even think about the internal values but to simply carry out the director/composer’s vision. So if anything, singing CAN be even more at a remove from one’s values than writing. I say CAN because it’s not very different from pure, classic storytellers like Agatha Christie spinning yarn after yarn. They were not seeking to approach writing from a philosophical perspective and neither is it the singer’s brief to do so. And if the singer did, it would reflect in the selection of songs they rendered rather than the act of singing itself.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 24, 2024
Madan : You listed some great points on Gandhi and very well said. Where I’m coming from is that his contribution to the freedom struggle is over estimated. Others’ contributions are not adequately recognized or lets say very sparsely recognized. Hell. Even in a family- there are 100 versions of the same event. World history is therefore is much more complex.
Again, you should be more charitable to those who are only 20% articulate as yourself and make an effort to understand where someone is coming from including R-G. I salute your knowledge and articulation but sometimes your phraseology smacks of a lawyer cross examining a witness. But I guess that is inevitable when such topics are argued.
To go back to the original subject, R-G and the others and many rasikas have all along had serious issues with TMK for years together now. Its not as if other musicians are not secular or are Pro-BJP. Far from it. Then why didnt R-G take a similar stand then?
Things just came to a head with TMK and they reacted. EVR is definitely not the only sore point. Do you think Palghat Mani Iyer’s family returning his SK award is due to EVR? Hope you get what I’m trying to convey
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Madan
March 24, 2024
“But why didn’t he allow complete population exchange?” – Er, because not every Indian Muslim wanted to go to Pakistan. And by the way, not every non-Muslim Pakistani wanted to move during partition either. Which brings me to…
” Knowing fully well that minorities in an Islamic state will not survive he didn’t allow that. ” – No, this was not known during partition and Jinnah promised to uphold freedom of religion so to obtain British assent to partition. And it wouldn’t be until the rise of Zia that Pakistan became an Islamic theocracy for all practical purposes.
“And you are yet to respond to any of the other points that I mentioned.” – For one, I have already said none of what you said was untrue and for another, you yet again failed to mention anything about Quit India movement either. So you go first and stop pretending there were no mass movements ever organized by Gandhi.
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Madan
March 24, 2024
“Where I’m coming from is that his contribution to the freedom struggle is over estimated. Others’ contributions are not adequately recognized or lets say very sparsely recognized. ” – I am in complete agreement with this but I think the solution for that is simply to talk much more about other freedom fighters and not to completely vilify him and pretend he had nothing worthwhile to contribute. Which brings me to…
“Again, you should be more charitable to those who are only 20% articulate as yourself ” – I don’t seek articulation but balance. If people resort to drawing black and white portraits of people, then I am not very charitable and that can’t be helped. I would do that of only a select few people in world history like Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Mao. The problem today is precisely that people see history through a prism of such emotional fervour instead of looking at the facts. There are almost no historical figures who come out completely clean if you look at it dispassionately. So, what do we do then – crucify Lincoln or FDR for their mistakes, ignoring their immense positive contribution and sing unqualified praises of today’s leaders (whether Biden or Trump) and not mention their own flaws at all?
As for R-G, I am repeating again, that I have no problem with their support for Modi. I am simply saying, again, that if they cite TMK’s ‘advocacy’ for Periyar and use guilt by association, they should be asked if they do or do not disassociate from outright genocidal statements from BJP leaders. I have only objected to the way they framed the argument. They have the right to oppose awarding TMK and so do other musicians.
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venkymandram
March 24, 2024
@Madan “That’s why many Hollywood actors have at least some facility in singing as well. Singing is essentially acting but in tune. ” Not in the case of carnatic music. Sure, you can act in tune in other forms of music. I have sung all kinds of songs. When I am singing a classical kriti, I dont think I can act the tune unless I let the song and lyrics embody me.
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KK
March 24, 2024
I don’t deny that he launched movements against the british. But saying that he was the main architecht behind the independence and others didn’t matter as much as him does a huge disservice to the other people. And it’s not about what anyone wanted. A religious based partition should have been executed to its logical end; complete population transfer. And nobody knew that minorities will not be safe. Really? If they couldn’t infer that from Mopollah Massacre and Direct Action Day, then they shouldn’t have been in charge in the first place. Just like leaders get credit for their action that bear fruit after their passing they must also share the blame for their inactions or decisions that would cost the nation dearly in the future.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 24, 2024
Madan : “I have only objected to the way they framed the argument.” Thats what I’ve been saying all along. R-G are at the level of cine goers who dont read BR’s blog. So when they are dazzled by a movie, all they can say is “Great photography!” Ofcourse we know its far more than that and a coalescing of many elements. Its the framing which is the problem
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Madan
March 24, 2024
” and others didn’t matter as much ” - No, I never said that. Even in my first comment on this, I mentioned Gandhi and Bose together intentionally. However, I knew that even then you would reach and assume that “anyone who praises Gandhi ignores other freedom fighters”.
“A religious based partition should have been executed to its logical end; complete population transfer.” - Which isn’t what either country intended with partition. That’s why Noor Jehan left for Pakistan but Naushad stayed – partition simply offered a different country with the option for people to move across the border if they wanted to. So you can’t sit here and relitigate history from your beautiful vantage point of hindsight. Had they actually carried out partition to its ‘logical end’ as you write from your armchair, it would have been even more bloody and both countries would have been rendered much more communal in the process.
“Just like leaders get credit for their action that bear fruit after their passing they must also share the blame for their inactions or decisions that would cost the nation dearly in the future.” – Yes, except one shall pretend to not have an opinion when one knows Bose bringing in German or Japanese help would have surely been disastrous had it somehow been successful in dislodging the British and one shall likewise not say a word about demonetization.
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Madan
March 24, 2024
“When I am singing a classical kriti, I dont think I can act the tune unless I let the song and lyrics embody me.” - Those are YOUR methods but need not be those of all singers. And as a listener, I am going to judge the outcome, not the method. Even if it is true that all Carnatic singers let the lyrics embody them while singing, only the greatest of the greatest like MS actually make me feel the devotion they are trying to express. I don’t get that even from a ‘good’ singer like Unnikrishnan, only the general aesthetic of Carnatic music with no catharsis. In that sense, I don’t find it to be radically different from the distribution in any music form. Millions strive but only a select few can make you connect with what they are singing.
Hence my skepticism of the notion that to sing Carnatic, you must necessarily believe every word of what you’re singing. I would go further and say that if a Tamilian who does not know Telugu listens to Carnatic rendered in Telugu, he wouldn’t even know if the text referred to the divine or not. It could be about the beauty of nature and it would still be all the same.
For me, in a musical form, the music takes precedence and Carnatic too is distinguished by its particular approach to raga development as distinct from Hindustani and also its structure. When you take away that raga quality and structure, you can still have devotional music rendered in Tamil/Telugu/Malayalam etc but it wouldn’t be Carnatic anymore. I have heard/been subjected to naamasangeetham and wouldn’t consider it Carnatic music though it may be equally as sacred. It’s the blue notes that make it jazz, not black vernacular lyrics (and fittingly, vocal jazz became but a small subset of the music).
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KK
March 24, 2024
Anything about Bose will be a what if. So let’s not go there. It was a religious based partition. The ones wanting a different country did belong to religious parties like Muslim league. And the partition was anyway communal. Starting from Direct Action Day till 1950, riots happened. Millions were anyway affected. And then Millions were again affected in the Bengal genocide of 1970s. And then in the Kashmiri Pandit Exodus. And so on and so forth. If you are positing that the partition would have been bloodier, it could very well have been. But the subsequent wiping out of minorities would not have happened. Again a what if. So not gonna speculate further.
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Madan
March 24, 2024
” But the subsequent wiping out of minorities would not have happened.” – No, it would have – the wipe out of other minorities from India. You may have forgotten them but I haven’t. At least Sikhs, Jains, Parsis and Christians had a safe home in India. Had we chosen to mirror Pak and become a Hindu state, they wouldn’t have been safe here either. The only reason BJP can implement a CAA today and offer citizenship to persecuted religious minorities in Pak and Bangladesh is India chose to be secular. But whatever.
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Raghu Narayanan
March 24, 2024
“When I am singing a classical kriti, I dont think I can act the tune unless I let the song and lyrics embody me.” - Those are YOUR methods but need not be those of all singers. ”
I feel a differentiation has to be made between Carnatic music and other forms of music, when it comes to acting a tune without having to believe word for word what the composer has written and composed. Every song has an underlying emotion. The underlying emotion of Carnatic songs is bhakti. While all other emotions can be faked, though made to sound as genuine as possible, I feel it is impossible to truly fake bhakti. That is why I too feel that it is impossible to act the tune in a Carnatic song. Even if some manage to do so, the difference between one who fakes, and one who has genuinely internalized it, will show sooner than later. Even in the case of compositions in languages that the singer is not familiar with, a true adherent of the tradition will take the pains to understand the meaning of the song, along with the diction, before attempting to render it. Something the immortal M S is known to do.
The reason why I feel it is next to impossible to fake bhakti while singing Carnatic music is because, to me, it is the same as praying in a temple in front of a deity. Just as it is not possible to fake bhakti while standing in front of the Gods and Goddesses in a temple, similarly, it is not possible to fake bhakti while rendering a Carnatic song. So, to this extent I do not feel that it is a method but rather a quality. That many musicians, who are otherwise excellent in the technical aspects, are not able to let the listener experience the bhakti through their rendition should not disqualify the need for bhakti itself.
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venkymandram
March 24, 2024
@Madan And so we come round to TMK’s core argument itself:). I am not generalizing my method. I agree with most of your points. Personally, as a singer, I too sometimes rely more on musicality more than lyrics, but the experience, in its grammar, is a combination of both. Indian philosophy (Sankhya in particular) talks of Prakruti (Seen) and Purusha (Seer) and their union makes a transformative seed of potential. I would argue that it is the Prakruthi of Lyrics and the the Purusha of the song that make the classical music experience a transformative experience.
I haven’t studied Natya Shaastra deeply other than listening to few of my mentors rave about it. What I know is this. Natya Shastra talks of Indian theory of aesthetics (which was expounded later by Abhinavagupta) and Indian classical music grammar carries Indian theory of aesthetics through its form and grammar. Take this famous sloka from Abhinavagupta.
“na hy etac cittavrttiväsanäsünyah pram bhavati.”
“In the course of our beginning-less journey through this universe we have experienced all emotions. Thus nobody fully aware of his own humanity can fail to be moved by another person’s experiences”
Translation Source: The Dhanvyaloka of Anandavardhana with Locana of Abhinavagupta by Daniel H. H. Ingalls Sr)
And this is the core distinction between Indian classical music (that wants you to experience substrate of reality) and modern music (that wants to rebel against reality). Jeyamohan in his lectures makes the same distinction between classical literature (sevviyal) vis-a-vis modern literature (naveena ilakkiyam). The latter comes with an agenda. The former doesn’t carry an agenda and so it moves your heart and lets you experience navarasas, including bhakti.
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vijee
March 24, 2024
“She does not need spokespersons or superficial custodians of her legacy to use her name and score personal brownie points. TN and Tamilians have seen and ignored such dog whistles for decades, and they shall be ignored now as well. I wish that MS was alive so that she could use the platform of the Music Academy to herself give the award to TMK on the dais, have a constructive debate about the history and legacy of Carnatic music, and put an end to this tussle that erupts every few years.”
‘MSS doesn’t need superficial custodians of her legacy’, says her great-grandson (newindianexpress.com)
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vijee
March 24, 2024
“No one knows what happened behind the scenes between Krishna and the Academy, but he performed there twice this year. He held his much-publicised ‘Friends in Concert’ there in January, followed by a concert during the Tyagaraja Aradhana celebrations hosted by the Academy. By then, it was clear that there was some kind of ‘patch-up’. Even so, the Kalanidhi announcement came as a surprise to most people following Carnatic music.
The unexpectedness of this announcement has caused right-wing Brahmin artistes and listeners to have a collective meltdown.”
https://www.newslaundry.com/2024/03/23/shaking-up-the-establishment-the-collective-meltdown-over-music-academy-and-tm-krishna
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PR Rao
March 24, 2024
@Brangan
A song expressing the rasa of love towards a beloved is not lack of devotion. In Sanatana Dharma, love towards a personal form of God (especially one like Krishna, whose multifarious personalities are presented throughout the scriptural canons of Sanatana Dharma) can be multivaried in its nature.
You seem to be quite unaware of this. Indeed, the “Chinnanchiru Kiliye” is part of Kannan Paattu, a series of songs written by Bharatiyaar viewing Lord Krishna via various relationships. He is only re-iterating what the Puranas have ‘permitted’. One can have any bhaava of Love towards Krishna – such as Guru, lover, son, etc. In this particular one, he views Kannan (Krishna) as his child. https://www.chennailibrary.com/bharathiyar/kannanpattu.html
Similarly, love for Bharata (Indian subcontinent) and Sanatana Dharma have been long intertwined. Bharatavarsha is extolled in multiple places in the scriptures. That Mahabharata and Ramayana cover the Indian Subcontinent in their descriptions and storyline is also well-known. Bharatavarsha is held to be a divine place most suited for spiritual growth. And so on.
Nationalism, various feelings of Love towards God, all these are beautifully showcased in the arts that were promoted by those who sided with the Dharma.
Mr EV Ramasamy did not, AFAIK, worship/love Bharata or any of Hindu deities in the way that any of the Dharmic scriptures entail. As far as I know he hated those concepts and wanted to move away from them as much as possible.
This is for your information and that of your audience. I suppose we don’t expect film and related personalities to know much about Dharma. But the blind leading the blind is the order of the day.
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Rocky
March 24, 2024
Wishing everyone a very Happy Holi !!
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Rocky
March 24, 2024
Superb discussion , lots to learn and absorb, specially from KK and S Ravishankar jee.
KK and SR and others-, please do watch Swatantra Veer Savarkar , it covers a lot of points on Gandhi, Savarkar , Tilak etc. in a gentle and subtle way.
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Madan
March 24, 2024
” Just as it is not possible to fake bhakti while standing in front of the Gods and Goddesses in a temple” - On the other hand, I think that is easily faked and far more easily than in singing where at least the ‘faking’ (I don’t regard it as faking anyway, all art is an artifice and I have to part ways with both you and venky in placing Indian classical music on a pedestal there) requires the acquiring of a lot of craft. I am sure I have read that Vijay Mallya was a frequent visitor of Thirumala and made huge donations to them. Does anybody really think he was a fervent devotee? In corporate too, I have met malicious managers who surrounded their office with every murthy available in our vast religion and ‘religiously’ sought the blessings of all these Gods before unleashing terror on their colleagues.
I guess to buy into the bhakti argument w.r.t Carnatic, one has to believe in theology as something real and not just a spiritual experience and I am simply unable to do the former. The other point which I have made earlier is there are in any case Bhartiyar songs appropriated into and canonized in Carnatic and they are rendered in the same manner as the bhakti compositions. Which suggests to me, from my limited experience of singing, that the methods driving both kinds of Carnatic music are fundamentally the same. People can seek to convince themselves that bhakti from within is necessary to render Carnatic vocals but objectively I find that a hard buy. Which is why I said, it comes down to what kind of God faith, if any, you practice to begin with.
I don’t know what TMK has stated as his beliefs and whether or not he is agnostic but it’s not a coincidence given his leftist views that he rebels against these widely held beliefs about Carnatic. And possibly had he never voiced these views, nobody would have suspected the relative/absolute lack of belief in the divine on his part as nobody would be able to tell from the execution. Aside from such speculation, on a practical level, Yesudas has not renounced Christianity and is widely regarded as a great Carnatic singer. So what is being deemed incompatible here has long been accepted in the Carnatic world and the bone of contention really seems to be TMK’s activism itself. Which is understandable because activists evoke a response one way or the other but I stand by my views that an atheist deeply in love with Carnatic music could render it perfectly and no patron would be able to tell as long as he just shut his mouth about his views on God.
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Rahul
March 24, 2024
This discussion brought to mind an article from many moons ago.
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Madan
March 24, 2024
Rahul: Those are thoughts from a different time, a different India. Feels like a long time ago and maybe 18 years back is getting to a long time. I am going to commit ‘sacrilege’ by posting the dangerous portions here:
“After I sang Krishna nee begane, a lady came up and commented that my favourite deity would have to be Krishna. She said I must have been thinking of Him when I sang; there could be no other explanation for the way the song touched her heart and made her visualise Krishna. But I said no. I wasn’t thinking of Krishna. I was thinking about Yaman Kalyani, about the way the raga is styled in the composition, about the way I was presenting it. The song may be about the composer’s love for Krishna, but we are not so emotional about Krishna. My feeling, my love is for the raga, not for Krishna.”
Also:
” This is bhakti, but to the music – not to Krishna,‿ she says. “We’re not in an era where we’re into that kind of bhakti. Because if it’s just bhakti, and if it’s just about Krishna or Rama, why would I – someone who doesn’t come from a very religious or ritualistic background – revel in it? I don’t think I love God more than I love music. Why would a European sitting there, who doesn’t know the difference between Krishna and Rama, listen to this music for two hours? Why are instrumental concerts so popular? Do we know if the performer is playing a kriti in Kannada or Telugu, or if that kriti is talking about this lord or that deity? “
Yedho, ponga, this nation is kinda schizophrenic in its short (as in post-independence) existence! Maybe it has to be to revel in Mile Sure Mera Tumhara while Rajiv Gandhi talks about bringing Ram Ramjya in Faizabad (chalo, ichcha prapti ab ho gayi na). Do you want to be like West, do you want to be secular or do you want to be like your neighbours, make up your mind, dammit – don’t change your posture as per convenience.
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Rahul
March 24, 2024
Madan, this was the first article I read on this blog, and I remember it vividly. I was incredibly moved by it, though I have only a superficial acquaintance with Carnatic music. Growing up as an atheist in a deeply religious and ritualistic family, I felt that there are not many voices who speak about atheism in the Indian public sphere. Her words helped me reconcile the emotions I feel when reading Bhakti poets like Soordas and Tulsidas.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 24, 2024
While there is Carnatic music not related to Bhakti, removing Bhakti from Carnatic music will deprive it of its original driving, motive force. Yesudas might not have been thinking of God while singing the definitive version of Saranam Iyyappa but he would have delved into his psyche to find the trigger which releases a similar emotion. Its okay to say I like music more than God or whatever is written in the above shares but the more I read it it looks like efforts to look “cool” and being more political than the politicians i.e not genuine, more to provoke – something like Mohammad Ali saying “I’m more famous than Jesus Christ” – which could be true but its bragadaccio all the same. When voices with influence communicate these ideas its not a healthy trend – be an atheist if you want but dont proselytize for it passionately. That is poisonous.
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Madan
March 24, 2024
sravishanker: Pl read the full interview. She doesn’t say she is an atheist. She just says she doesn’t see her love for music as subordinate to love for God. I don’t think that is a cool position, just an honest expression of an artist’s surrender to music. Even Ilayaraja said his spiritual transformation post-84 and his music came from different parts of his personality.
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tamil thanos
March 25, 2024
“I am sure there are many more instances. But these are just right off my head. So an abusive, coward, power hungry and dumb old man is the father of the nation. ” Come on man, Gandhi is no saint. But it’s so pitiful and disappointing to criticize someone 8 decades later on their credibility towards freedom movement from your cushy air conditioned rooms. Off late, we are so consumed by right wing or left wing ideology that we are willing to overlook everything that doesn’t suit our narrative.
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tamil thanos
March 25, 2024
“I feel a differentiation has to be made between Carnatic music and other forms of music, when it comes to acting a tune without having to believe word for word what the composer has written and composed. Every song has an underlying emotion. ” I strongly disagree with this. Art forms always evolve to reach wider audience. This has been happening for centuries and will be happen going forward. Carnatic music is closely coupled to Bhakti and there is no denying that. But what is wrong in someone trying to extend it? After all, we enjoyed Ilaiyaraja and Rahman taking rags and generating tunes. What I am saying is, this would happened irrespective of TMK.
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venkymandram
March 25, 2024
@Madan ” I have to part ways with both you and venky in placing Indian classical music on a pedestal there) …I guess to buy into the bhakti argument w.r.t Carnatic, one has to believe in theology as something real and not just a spiritual experience and I am simply unable to do the former. ”
Actually, as a kanjeera artist who has subverted the idiom of the instrument to play for Blues/Koothu/Nirgun/Pop Music I am the last person to place Indian Classical Music on a pedestal. I am only differentiating its grammar. Ordinary artists follow grammar. Great Artists at one point break the grammar and that’s the case with TMK and Bombay Jayashri. The problem happens when subverting the grammar becomes and excuse to challenge the validity of the classical music form itself. Which is where TMK fails miserably.
I am only pointing out the grammar. There is enough room to play around with this grammar and let each one discover one’s bliss.
Buying into bhakti argument doesn’t require you to believe in theology as something real. Infact, you stop believing in this beliving nonsense. I deeply appreciate your candour in stating that ” I am simply unable to do the former. ”.
Where I am in my life, I am able to merge bhakti and spirituality effortlessly without believing into any theology. Infact, the deeper you go into spirituality, you start to see the mechanics behind why the story was constructed in a certain way. Talking of which, you must read “The Religious Case Against Belief” by James Carr. Phenomenal book.
It’s like what happens in movies. At first, we are smitten. Slowly we understand how editing patterns work. How Sound Design Works. How Actors have internalized. How Cinematography has played out. Soon, you start to see that there is an underlying script everyone is playing. That’s exactly the case with Religion (Movie) and Spirituality (Script). Understanding the script lets you see how the movie is played out and how people create their own delusion in their head and start F**king around. Do you dismiss the script because the movie turned out to be a bad experience for someone? That’s the question we are delving into at one level.
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venkymandram
March 25, 2024
@tamil thanos ” Carnatic music is closely coupled to Bhakti and there is no denying that. But what is wrong in someone trying to extend it?” It is like going for a walk in my car. If I want to go for a walk, why would I need a car that has been designed for a particular use-case. I am the last purist on earth. Sure, I can take a ride in a car, enjoy it the way I want. My friends in my band recorded a post-breakup kuthu song with just kanjeera as beats. It was insanely fun!
But if I want to use the car and test its engineering capacities, I would rather understand the manual better and see in what ways I can push the rpm levels higher. You get what I am saying right?
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Raghu Narayanan
March 25, 2024
@tamilthanos – “But what is wrong in someone trying to extend it?”
I guess I have already answered this question (from my perspective, no doubt) in an earlier comment in this thread. So my take is, no one can be barred from using a Carnatic raga and composing a film song out of it. It’s their democratic right to do so. Similarly, it is TMK or anyone else’s right to compose a song on Jesus, Allah or Periyar using Carnatic ragas. My take is just that, have the spine to say that it isn’t Carnatic music. Don’t take refuge under it’s cloak. That, in my books, is integrity, and I do not see it in the evidence list.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 25, 2024
Interesting and insightful rebuttal by a young musician to TMK. Flies in the face of his “We excluded all references to Rama, Krishna, Govinda in order to bring in the youngsters to Classical music” refrain he’s been singing for decades.
Hopefully the future is safe with such young people
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venkymandram
March 25, 2024
@Raghu Narayanan “gas. My take is just that, have the spine to say that it isn’t Carnatic music. Don’t take refuge under it’s cloak.” Even though I am not a big fan of Agam, I think what I like is that they call themselves “Carnatic Rock” band, as far as I last remember hearing them talk about what they do. The thing is, carnatic music has endless space for improvisation, evolved significantly from its tamizhisai roots ( I am setting the cat among the pigeons here, I’ve heard many scholars argue this until cows come home), and there is NO rule book that says if you diverge from ABC, you shant call it Carnatic Music’
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KK
March 25, 2024
It’s been eight decades. Exactly. It’s as good a time as any to start ripping into the so called greatness of the characters that played a part in our independence. I can’t do that to Ambedkar or Periyar because I don’t wanna spend time in jail, thanks to the SC ST act (which by the way Modi brought; it was Modi’s Shahbano moment). But Gandhi and Nehru are fair game. The latter held the top job for over 17 years and the former is called the father of the nation. We can also start ripping into Bose, Bhagat Singh, Savarkar and anyone and everyone. The point is, just because they played a role in our independence doesn’t mean we can’t critcise their choices which affected us as a whole. And it also doesn’t excuse who they were on an individual level. This is my comment on this topic. I don’t wanna take the discussion astray anymore.
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tamil thanos
March 25, 2024
@KK I am in no way discourage criticism. In fact, discussion is very welcome and we don’t really need to worship them. But calling them dumb, overrated or whatever might be bit of a stretch. No taking it any further.
@Raghu Narayanan, why should it not be called Carnatic music? I get that for you Bhakti should be the center piece but I am curious to know if that is what is being practiced by all singers anyway. I have known carnatic singers in my circle who aren’t religious. So why is what TMK does not carnatic? Why can’t it just be a different age of carnatic music like how we classify paintings?
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tamil thanos
March 25, 2024
Let’s take that bhakti is always essential for a good carnatic singer and for their art to classified as carnatic. Isn’t bhakti more tied to spirituality than justworshipping a particular god ? Don’t you think spirituality by now would have evolved in this world and god itself would be abstracted?
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Isai
March 25, 2024
This is interesting:
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Nappinai
March 25, 2024
@Tamil Thanos – this view that spirituality can be interpreted based on one’s own consciousness and judgement and that all forms are equal doesn’t hold true for Hinduism.
The traditional view is quite clear – us humans are greatly limited by our ego and shortcomings. Most of us cannot control our minds to prevent scrolling and you want to say the mind is capable of finding its own spirituality just like that? You hence strive by various means to condition the body and mind so that you can realize God. One method is through music.
Yes, Bhakti of all forms is Bhakti including love for your spouse or profession ( Bombay J’s view) but they are not equal. It is Bhakti to god alone that is supreme among the forms and hence it is this form that the artist seeks. This is also true for all other forms of traditional Indian art.
Although this may be uncool to the modern mind, traditional Hindu arts’ primary objective is not artistic excellence , it’s realization of God. As many have tweeted on X- Ravana was considered the greatest musician and artist of all times. Did Tyagaraja worship him? No.
Before someone says all God is one so Carnatic music can be secular etc.. I want to reiterate KK’s comment here- saying so would be akin to the mischief DMK wants to do by secularizing temples. It’s just a euphemism for destruction of the temple of art form itself.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 25, 2024
The entire body of work by the Carnatic Music Trinity was born out of Bhakti.
Then how can one separate Bhakti from Carnatic music?? Bhakti is its original guiding force without which Carnatic music will be reduced to a gamakam or a vibralto.
Great music, art or indeed great achievement is born from Harmony. This in turn means being ALIGNED and in full EMPATHY with your rasikas’ emotions.
When John Higgins Bhagavathar sings Vaa Vaa Kandha vaa he may not be worshipping Muruga but he becomes one with and in HARMONY with his rasikas’ overriding emotion or finds that similar emotion within himself which is nothing but Bhakthi.
I find this phrase “Bhakthi to the Raga” preposterous. Where did this raga spring from if not from Bhakti of the Trinity?
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Nappinai
March 25, 2024
I thought RG’s initial letter was quite cogent but was subverted by the SM storm unleashed.
Their assertion is that they can’t champion MA both as Carnatic musicians and TBs because TMK has caused immense damage to both the communities. Many TB with a lived experience in TN will know instinctively what they mean. Calling for the killing of Brahmins was an important part of EVR’s assertions. Even more so, denigration of Hindu Gods. Even the mighty Rajni got into trouble for pointing out this fact with proof. Lastly, they point out EVR’s denigration of TB women as female artistes. Now, one of my earliest memories is a drunken man shouting at my mom unprovoked in a bus that all Brahmin women are scum and therefore it’s not wrong to rape them. This is not an isolated incident, others have similar stories. IMO, Brahmin hatred and Hindu denigration is fundamental to EVR. You remove them and you are left with a vacuum.
You can’t look at TMK’s actions in isolation. If he platforms EVR’s songs, champions him in his writings, equates Lord Ram with a dog, continues to dog whistle against TBs, then it’s reasonable to conclude that he symbolizes EVR. Hence RG’s letter.
Now, if you want to question RG as human beings, if all trauma such as TB trauma is equal and go into what aboutery, so be it. They are all perfectly valid questions to raise but it doesn’t negate RG’s letter.
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 25, 2024
@Nappinai : Outstanding comment – every line of it!
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therag
March 25, 2024
I’d like to pose a different question here.
What is the process by which the Music Academy and their coterie decide who gets the award each year? Who are the members, what is the nomination and voting process? What is the criteria by which musicians are selected?
These, to me, are the important questions. If TMK winning it is so contentious, there had to have been some dissent behind the scenes. Some members had to have protested or even resigned in protest? Yet, we don’t know that something like that happened (yet).
So far, it seems like The Hindu and friends basically get to choose the winners each year. The award really holds no merit in my eyes. Maybe after this episode, a lot of people are going to be looking at the blessed “Academy” differently.
FWIW I used to adore TMK and his brashness. But his actions over the last decade have really left a sour taste in the mouth. His antics have done nothing to widen carnatic music’s horizons or bring them to the “downtrodden and the poor” as far as I can see. All he has done is brought a barbarian horde of leftists and woke artists to the party (and the accompanying rightwingers and hardliners). Whatever the outcome of this drama, you can be assured the debate will be anything but constructive and nobody is gonna talk about the music.
The only real gateway to Carnatic music continues to be the music of artists like Ilaiyaraja, Ramesh Vinayagam, Ghibran, Sean Roldan etc. It took the Music Academy decades to finally invite and honor Ilaiyaraja. That is the speed at which they operate (they got more pressing issues to worry about obviously s).
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skeptic
March 26, 2024
sravishanker says: “I find this phrase “Bhakthi to the Raga” preposterous. Where did this raga spring from if not from Bhakti of the Trinity?”
Well, varali definitely existed before the Trinity. It is mentioned in the Sangeeta Ratnakara from the 13th century. Where a raga is famously defined as “ranjayati itihi rāga” – that which delights is Raga.
As does Matanga’s Brihaddesi: “dhwani vishesathu … Ranjako jana-chittanam sah ragah kathitho vidhuv” – that particular sound … which delights the minds of the people is called Raga by the wise.
No mention of bhakti.
To follow up on an earlier comment on Islamic influence on the allegedly pure music of the South, we don’t have evidence of the origin of Kalyani/Yaman, but it is *not* mentioned in older musical texts, its first mentions include statements like “beloved of the Turushkas”, and in the North there is a tradition (without concrete evidence) that it was a creation of Amir Khusrau. Many raga names do betray northern/muslim influence, like Darbar, Huseni, Hameer Kalyani, Jaunpuri. The “tillana” form is derived from the sufi tarana compositional form sung in the dargahs of the Chisti order. And so on. There is more to Carnatic music than bhakti, and it is very much to the credit of great musicians of our tradition that they could adapt these various influences.
In all this discussion though, I must agree with “therag” that TMKs speeches and articles have not had the intended effect. I did really enjoy his singing with nadaswaram vidwans for example here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Dp88V6m8Tw (nothing to do with their religion, they are the family of Sangeetha Kalanidhi Sheikh Chinna Moulana). I wish he would do more of those.
Sanjay Subramanian chooses to make this point quietly in his recent re-tweets: https://twitter.com/rmnth/status/1772110741123846221 and https://twitter.com/rmnth/status/1772110741123846221.
“Alathur Brothers .. didn’t write articles in newspapers about making music inclusive or making it secular, they showed it in their music.
“How to take CM to the masses. Sing well. Sing a lot of songs in the local language.”
I’m going to not respond to all the discussions on Periyar/Gandhi etc. Not my area of expertise, the thread seems to make it clear that its easy to abuse the words and deeds of historical figures, and its really irrelevant to the award.
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venkymandram
March 26, 2024
@therag Glad you mentioned Sean Roldan. In many ways, TMK and Sean Roldan faced a similar predicament at different points of their lives and responded differently based on their life contexts.
“Raghavendra Raja Rao”, the son of legendary Mridangam artiste Srimushnam V. Raja Rao wanted to question his Carnatic roots and discover his original musical voice. He realized that his name wouldn’t help him a bit in his journey. He decided to change his name as “Sean Roldan”. While TMK, with the legacy and fame and “brand” he carried, he felt that he could question his roots keeping his name intact. Its interesting to reflect on how each of their life journeys have led them to where they are now.
Sean is breaking fascinating musical boundaries with music on Arunagirinathar and now a documentary on anti-caste mystic Vallalar and rock music set to Vallalar’s lyrics. I am not judging each of these gentlemens’ life choices. I am wondering how different it has turned out to be.
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therag
March 26, 2024
@venkymandram, Right. Some people in my circle have voiced disappointment at Sean Roldan for not pursuing a traditional carnatic career, but they enjoy his film music and acknowledge his choice. He could still do a Sid Sriram and perform in the carnatic circuit if he wants to. I’d argue it would be a boon for Carnatic music considering his popularity (sorta like Sid Sriram).
There is a very simple explanation for the failure of Carnatic music to percolate to a larger audience. It has a very high learning curve and needs a lot of training to even understand let alone sing. It is a relatively high-attention span activity in an era of low attention spans and maximum distractions. The music of Raja, Roldan, etc exposes people without Carnatic training to some of its wonders.
TMK adopted an (IMHO) incorrect approach to broaden carnatic music and kept on with the same despite no palpable successes. I need to question his intent and whether he actually stands for everything he claims to stand for. The only person/cause that has come out positive after his crusade has been TMK and his band of leftists. I’m sure he’ll swing a book deal out of this drama also, and multiple national “primetime debates”.
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venkymandram
March 26, 2024
I think he was on right track in the initial years. Like you, I was thrilled in the initial years with the direction he was taking. I remember chatting with him when he was in Hyderabad for a talk where he brought marxist lens to question his roots. I am game for questioning roots as long as one doesn’t convert it into suspicion with self-bashing and self-loathing one’s roots. I suppose he got carried away and trouble followed when he started washing dirty linen of fellow musicians and started casting aspersions on his fellow musician community Given his stature, he could have done so much more, and I suppose, to his credit, he became “kadaa aadu” for this kind of conversations to emerge in carnatic space. TB community were largely apolitical and wary of taking stance. Now, the environment is such one has to take a stance. Perhaps, he deserves some credit for that.
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venkymandram
March 26, 2024
“It is a relatively high-attention span activity in an era of low attention spans and maximum distractions.” Exactly why lyrics and music have to match the spirit of high-attention span activity. When I am dealing with high attention span musical aesthetic, the lyrics has to be of a certain kind where it lets you ask existential questions and examine the roots of one’s existence. Not wonder if the current political dispensation is hoodwinking the public. It feels novel at the first time and later feels gimicky, much like the thukada components that get sung in the end of concerts to appease a certain segment of audience
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hari
March 26, 2024
Recently came across this – https://twitter.com/RepBrianMast/status/1770940795148747187 (The Biden Administration spent HALF A MILLION DOLLARS of money to promote atheism in Nepal.) – I can imagine what these guys would have done/doing in India (especially with the dk’s).
First secularize art forms, then temples, then families and then field is yours
I’m glad that Ranjani Gayathri raised their voice against TMK who has been given a long rope for a very long time without any response. Whether it could have been properly worded is immaterial. Trichur brothers rightfully said that TMK used his “privilege” to browbeat his ideology in media that is not accessible to others. And ironically this TMK dude is against using ones privilege 🙂
Even when EVR raised his genocidal call “avanunga verum 3% dhaan, namma 97, namma 3 sethalum, naama 94% iruppom, aana avanga 0% aagiduvaanga” the B’s were 3%, now it would be less than 2%. And the carnatic liking group will be much less than it, so why does the dk gang have their eyes on the carnatic scene? Is the dk gang saying that in the remaining 98% there is no casteism and only casteism left is in this 2%?
Nappinai your comment hit a raw nerve in mine as well. It is sad a lot of B’s do not know about the genocidal call, otherwise they would not be “sombhu thookifying” for the EVR gang.
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hari
March 26, 2024
N Ram in his tweet praises EVR as “the father of the Self-Respect Movement in Tamil Nadu and a champion of women’s equality and rights?” and asks RaGa “Who put them up to this?”. Wow, irony shat through the roof? Didn’t EVR teach N Ram women’s equality?
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Madan
March 27, 2024
“Where I am in my life, I am able to merge bhakti and spirituality effortlessly without believing into any theology. ” - Very well, but spirituality is well able to exist without bhakti is my short point. Saying spirituality must be filtered only and only through bhakti becomes nothing but theology (not that you said so but that is the implication of linking bhakti to the successful performance of Carnatic music). I actually have no problem with the conception of Carnatic music as only that by whoever wishes to so conceive it because in any case I selectively partake of those portions/artists of it that I like and give the rest a wide berth. FWIW my ‘God’ in music is eclecticism, period.
My point all along has simply been that objectively I cannot find any basis to say that it is necessary for the artist to imbibe bhakti from within to perform Carnatic music (the reason being that say a rendition of Chinanchiru Kiliye is identical in technique and aesthetics to that of say Devi Neeye Thunai). While, of course, when Carnatic is viewed as a purely theological instrument, then it is very easy to see where such a view comes from.
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Madan
March 27, 2024
I would add that perhaps, the best way to maintain the ‘illusion’ would have been to never canonize Bhartiyar songs into Carnatic in the first place or to only do so in a manner where the character of such music is very perceptibly different from that of those addressed to God. You wouldn’t sing a Bhartiyar song as a prayer to God in a temple no matter how much you love his work because it isn’t meant to be a prayer. So…either no Chinanchiru Kiliye at all or it sounds radically different from other Carnatic music. Accommodating it had muddled the picture a long time ago. Once you get liberated ‘out of’, you gotta be careful what you liberate ‘into’, to paraphrase what Andrew Marr said once about Thatcherism. It’s a sliding slope thereafter.
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venkymandram
March 27, 2024
Ofcourse, spirituality can very well exist without bhakti.
Reading the movie script, for the trained mind, can be infinitely more rewarding than watching the movie itself. I agree with you that it is not necessary for the artist to imbibe bhakti from within to perform Carnatic Music. But, the aesthetic of the musical form is such that even if you are atheist, when you sing, you touch the nerve of religiosity. There are more than fifty shades of religiosity, bhakti and when I listen to siddhar paadalgal, I realize that this musical aesthetic has infinite range of possibilities. Music is Eclecticism at the end of the day where a bunch of imaginary locations in the vocal chord can lead to intense feelings, no matter which form you give to those feelings. On that note, here is a rendition of “Moko Kahaan Dhoondhe Re Bandhe” by my favourite Kabir Singer with my kanjeera accompaniment in a concert we played in Hyderabad during the pandemic.
Oh Follower, Where do you search me?
I am always with you
Not in pilgrimage, nor in statues
Neither in solitude
Not in temples, nor in the mosque
Neither in the Kabha nor in Kailash
I am with you, oh follower
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astro
March 27, 2024
as i went through the comments, BRs 2 year old interview with TMK popped up. May be BR, time to do one more interview with TMK for his perspective 🙂
The Music Academy would do better to have a consultative approach and broader decision making group rather than a few (non musicians?) deciding on awards…if its soo..prestigious. MAs response looks quite autocratic …and in bad taste to senior musicians who disagree with the decision to award TMK.
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Vazhipokkan
March 27, 2024
TMK comes across as an immature person who is just focused on publicity and will say/ do anything to get publicity. Being a gifted musician, I am perplexed why he resorts to gimmicks and posturing. The Kuppam concerts for example – how did most of that community react to it? If I recall right, there was a comment on the lines of “yaaru ya indha kiru**u koo**i. Enga vandhu enna paaduraan “ …. Those people don’t care for his music. No offense to them. All it resulted in was some publicity for TMK.
His snobbish takes on many things, talking about EVR, questioning tradition to show his woke credentials…. I thought people stopped taking him seriously long ago. Now this fresh episode of controversy is just another opportunity for publicity for TMK. Nothing more. He is a dishonest idiot who thinks his antics can drive social change. Nothing will change. The sad thing is he is going to end up damaging a lot of tradition for no good reason.
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Madan
March 27, 2024
“But, the aesthetic of the musical form is such that even if you are atheist, when you sing, you touch the nerve of religiosity.” – Perfect, you have captured what I have been trying to say better than I could. Yes, my point was that even the atheist as long as he respects the quality of ‘devotion’ in the music without necessarily feeling devotion to that particular God, can still capture that emotion and invoke for listeners the sense of bhakti THEY are looking for. If you circle back to the incident Jayashri narrated, it captures it perfectly. She was after a musical bhakti but as she was singing about Krishna, the rasika interpreted it as Krishna bhakti anyway. This is the sense of abstraction that I was trying to convey earlier. Expression in music is so abstract and at the highest level, can be so out of body that it can’t be codified. Sometimes, the artist themselves may not know where it came from.
Will watch that video soon as well, thanks for sharing!
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vijay
March 27, 2024
Sanjay Subramanyam is either an atheist or agnostic, IIRC, and one can argue how easily he has been an exponent of this art without being overtly religious or showcasing his ‘bhakti’ or whatever.. This ‘bhakti’ is just an argument used to maintain status quo and hegemony and sideline any fresh voices. For all you know, Ravikiran may have been inspired by the pretty 16-yr old sitting in the front row when he played his chitraveena
Chinmayi echoes some of what I said earlier
https://www.hindustantimes.com/entertainment/music/chinmayi-sripada-defends-tm-krishna-amid-criticism-101711432700116.html
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brangan
March 27, 2024
skeptic: Rescued your comment from spam…
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venkymandram
March 27, 2024
@Skeptic: “The “tillana” form is derived from the sufi tarana compositional form sung in the dargahs of the Chisti order. ” This is interesting. Sometime back, I had met a scholar from Bengal who had argued that the bhakti tradition of chaitanya mahaprabhu derived a lot from sufi tradition and there are a lot more common roots than we imagine. Very fascinating. Thank you for sharing!
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Jayram
March 27, 2024
Venky, I thought that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s bhakti movement primarily came from the bhakti movement led by Ramanujacharya. I didn’t know it has sufi elements. Do you know if Prabhupada ever mentioned it?
Speaking of sufi/Arabic/Middle Eastern elements, this reminds me of how Thyagaraja used “hausugA” which is believed to derived from “hawas” in his krithi Chetulara Sringaramu. I mentioned it here: https://baradwajrangan.wordpress.com/2021/07/06/readers-write-in-381-balamuralikrishna-dazzles-once-more/
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tamil thanos
March 27, 2024
@hari, please don’t bring conspiracy theories into a civil discussion. A quick search over the “US funding atheism news” would actually lead you to the DRL’s (Human Rights division of US govt) https://www.state.gov/statements-of-interest-requests-for-proposals-and-notices-of-funding-opportunity/drl-fy20-irf-promoting-and-defending-religious-freedom-inclusive-of-atheist-humanist-non-practicing-and-non-affiliated-individuals/ . I hate simplified twitter news and people reacting off of it.
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venkymandram
March 28, 2024
@vijay Given how much women and men near and dear to me have gone through the trauma of sexual abuse, I deeply empathize with Chinmayi’s angst. That said, her comments seems to lack historical context.
“Brahmin community has always been practising the craft. They themselves have basically hijacked it from the Devdasi community and they started gatekeeping it saying that nobody else except us, who have any devotion and bhakti can perform this. “
After colonisation, when most of the traditional arts lost patronage, it was the Brahmin community and their “bhakti” to the tradition that made sure that this art form survived to this day. To claim that they hijacked from Devadasi lacks historical understanding and pits the latter as victims when they clearly were not.
In the org that I run, we had invited Pradeep Chakravarthy who has studied the history of the Devadasi community to speak about this. To hear how the Devadasi community thrived in their day and how the memory of the community lives today as a slur in thamizh land is deeply deeply tragic.
https://youtu.be/IsGjvVtXH-s
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venkymandram
March 28, 2024
@Jayram “Do you know if Prabhupada ever mentioned it?” This scholar being Bengali had lots of evidence in bengali text to claim his theory. I was just paraphrasing what I heard from him in an animated conversation we had one day many moons ago. I doubt if Prabhupada would have mentioned though.
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Venky Ramachandran
March 28, 2024
@Jayram Actually, if you look at historical reasons behind the 14th century Bhakti movement with the rise of Kabir, Mira et al, there are studies that point out that it emerged as an organic response to islamic invasion and hence the focus was more on energizing the core of “devotion” and assimilating various cultural elements that were prevalent in the day. So, at one level, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu assimilating those elements as much as Kabir talking of both Mullah and Pandit seems to come from a same historical tributary.
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hari
March 28, 2024
Tamil thanos – slow claps, the twitter link i shared is from the US congressman himself and your doc link is the one he was displaying as well. Not sure if you read the link, do read the Expected Program Outcomes and Program activities could include sections.
the doc says the following:-
“Activities should take place in 2-3 countries selected within one of the following regions: South/Central Asia- countries within the SCA region as defined by the State Department;”
and India comes in South Asia – last I checked.
So please, don’t teach others as to what constitutes civil or not 🙂
moving on to TMK now.
@skeptic in agreement with your comment, carnatic singers of yore have collaborated with varied groups and have expanded the horizons, i have heard Sangeetha Kalanidhi Sheikh Chinna Moulana a lot during my early days (even before TMK). I love listening to TMK, whether he believes in what he sings is immaterial to me. The kind of emotions he evokes in me is paramount. But I abhor his politics, and I’m certain this award was given for his politics and not for his singing, if it was for his singing he was long due.
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Jayram
March 28, 2024
Thanks Venky. I read somewhere that Kabir rejected both Hinduism and Islam and focused on the One that would bring everyone together. Not sure if you already knew this.
Speaking of Kabir, this is one of my favorite compositions of his rendered by one of my favorite vocalists, Voleti Venkateswarulu. He was one of those unique vocalists who could sing both systems with ease and was heavily influenced by Bade Ghulam Ali Khan. The taans he has done here are impeccable and he is fully in sync with Kabir’s lyrics.
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Venky Ramachandran
March 28, 2024
Yes, there is an entire school of mystic thought that looks at Kabir (much like Sivanadiyar in tamizh lore) who looked at the idiocies in both Hinduism and Islam and voiced out in the post islamic invasion period when bhakti movement was picking up. My favourite Kabir renditions are of the legendary Kumar Gandharvaji . Have you seen Kabir documentaries shot by Shabnam Virmani. They are an absolute treasure which places Kabir in today’s oral musical context. I have never heard Voleti Venkateswarulu much. Although I remember you mentioning about him a lot.
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Jayram
March 28, 2024
No, Venky. I have yet to see the Kabir documentaries by Shubnam Virmani.
Actually the first time I heard a Kabir composition was by Anup Jalota as a child. Later I read his and Meerabai’s stories in Amar Chitra Katha and gained a better appreciation of them.
As for Voleti, I don’t think I have mentioned him much here. But like MSS and BMK, I grew up listening to his music especially his album of Annamacharya Krithis. He tuned a couple of Annamacharya krithis in Hindustani raags like Kalavathi and brought that Hindustani touch to them.
Lalgudi Jayaraman was one of his dearest friends who played a lot with him and composed the Pahadi thillana on his request. Someone sent me a letter from Voleti to Lalgudi which was so heartfelt. I’ll have to see how I can post it here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLC0lt_px1k – a rare video of Voleti singing a bhajan with Annavarapu Ramaswamy (violin- still around at age 98!) and Dandamudi Rammohan Rao (mridangam).
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hari prasad
March 28, 2024
I don’t want Carnatic songs that praise Periyar nor Allah nor Christ , I just need Carnatic music to be more fun and accesible to everyone like this classic from Raja.
And I know that Raja got thrashed left , right and center for supposedly bringing a bad name for the holiest of the moliest Carnatic music.
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Venky Ramachandran
March 28, 2024
@Jayram Maybe, I picked up that name through Ramana Balachandran. This version, I must admit, is far more delectable to my ear as of now
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Jayram
March 28, 2024
Yes, Ramana is one of my great friends. He is an brilliant veena player. His father, I believe learnt from BMK himself and he has a lot of love of BMK’s music aka muraLi gANam. I had the fortune to see him twice live during his US tour last year. And his Main Ghulam is excellent in its own way.
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tamil thanos
March 28, 2024
@hari The bar for US congress is not so great nowadays. This is the congressman that cosplays as an IDF soldier (even though there is no link) for interviews and claims Palestinian babies deserve to be killed. But hey, why try to understand the proposal when I can choose a particular text to suit my narrative. I don’t want to digress from the topic anymore here. Peace.
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therag
March 29, 2024
@hari, Regarding “Raja got thrashed left , right and center for supposedly bringing a bad name for the holiest of the moliest Carnatic music” -> who controlled the narrative on this ? Music Academy.
Who about-turned and decided to honor Raja’s “contributions” to the field of Carnatic music? Music Academy.
Who threw shade on singers like Bombay Jayashree and Sudha Raghunathan when they undertook forays to Tamil Film Music ? …..The Music Academy.
“Vedigunda ivare vepparaam, aprom poi ivare defuse pannuvaaraam…”
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Jayram
March 29, 2024
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Jayram
March 29, 2024
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Jayram
March 29, 2024
Mat Kar Moh Tu (Kabir doh) at the 1:36:48 mark rendered by BMK and M Chandrasekaran (the blind violinist who is one of my favorites and a legend in his own right).
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Rocky
March 29, 2024
Another good interview
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sravishanker1401gmailcom
March 30, 2024
https://www.deccanherald.com/features/art-and-culture/why-we-aren-t-returning-ms-s-sangita-kalanidhi-title-2958102
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vijay
March 30, 2024
https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/t-m-krishna-and-the-caste-of-music-9241769/
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Venky Ramachandran
March 31, 2024
Jeyamohan on TMK Sangeeta Kalanadhi controversy
https://www.jeyamohan.in/198754/
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